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XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 10:45 AM
From what I have read, they had decent equipment. Their planes were not always on the cutting edge of figher/bomber de signs but they seemed to be surprisingly good overall.

Regrettably, I dont know much about Italys involvement in WW2. I have read a little about their campaign in Greece and Ethiopia, but little else. Maybe they didnt do as bad as my limited reading on the subject would indicate, so tell me more my fellow forum members.

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XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 10:45 AM
From what I have read, they had decent equipment. Their planes were not always on the cutting edge of figher/bomber de signs but they seemed to be surprisingly good overall.

Regrettably, I dont know much about Italys involvement in WW2. I have read a little about their campaign in Greece and Ethiopia, but little else. Maybe they didnt do as bad as my limited reading on the subject would indicate, so tell me more my fellow forum members.

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XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 11:11 AM
The average Italian infantry division was pretty poorly equipped compared to the German and Allied divisions. Combine that with a so-so troop morale, poor generalship and a strategic over-extension and you pretty much have the explanation.

Someone will, during the short existence of this thread, claim that the Italians simply where poor soldiers. Ignore it. There are lots of accounts of the individual fighting skills and courage of the Italian troops engaged in Africa and elsewhere.

cheers/slush

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You can't handle the truth!
Col. Jessep

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 11:15 AM
Italian mentality is quite different from German.

In WWII time they were also not as harsh to their enemies as Germans and Japanese. They did not have concentration camps and did not do massive killings and so on... simply because they were not like their alies at that time.

Maybe you could say they did not have as much enthusiasm to rule the world or something /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 11:19 AM
There ya go ... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

The first "it's the Italian mentality" explanation. Traditionally someone will now point out "but during Roman times, the Italians where great soldiers!"

The just as traditional counter-arguments is of course that it's a long time ago, that the legions where composed of more than just Italians, and that the martial history of Italy has been going down the drains since.

Someone else will (more or less correctly) call that BS, and then the namecalling starts and the mods step in! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

cheers/slush

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You can't handle the truth!
Col. Jessep

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 11:26 AM
Heh it cracks me up when I see Italian flags waving in a front yard instead of the American flag. I mean... what have they done since R O M E that makes them so proud? and do Irish people do the same because they're proud of civil war and ale? That's a point my history teacher came up with last year. I wonder if it's considered being rascist...



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XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 11:26 AM
well their mentality is different...I don't know what's wrong with that statement?

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 11:30 AM
Stormer777 wrote:
- Heh it cracks me up when I see Italian flags waving
- in a front yard instead of the American flag. I
- mean... what have they done since R O M E that makes
- them so proud?

ROFL /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
Let me see... what have the Italians done since Rome that makes them so proud? Anyone here care to educate the young about the history of Western civilisation? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

cheers/slush

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You can't handle the truth!
Col. Jessep

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 11:34 AM
No.1RAAF_edin wrote:
- well their mentality is different...I don't know
- what's wrong with that statement?

Apart from being a simplistic and unsupported explanation of national strategic behaviour now and then?

cheers/slush





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You can't handle the truth!
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XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 11:34 AM
yeah I'd like to say...Italians invented fashion... so to speak /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 11:37 AM
Stormer777 wrote:
- Heh it cracks me up when I see Italian flags waving
- in a front yard instead of the American flag. I
- mean... what have they done since R O M E that makes
- them so proud? That's a
- point my history teacher came up with last year. I
- wonder if it's considered being rascist...

An Italian discovered your country, -put an offensive word here- , and a lot of other things.... would you please pick a history book and start to read it, thanks...



Message Edited on 08/26/0312:40PM by ITA-Joker-

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 11:40 AM
No.1RAAF_edin wrote:
- yeah I'd like to say...Italians invented fashion...
- so to speak /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

And the telephone, and the cell .... and so on....

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 11:45 AM
Please, think before saying Italians were cowards..... do a search.... try to look for Italian units like "Folgore", "Alpini", or the "Decima Mas"... you ll learn something important about Italians in combat http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 11:46 AM
Their Heart was not in it.

Bear in mind that Rome was once a Cruel and blood thirsty master, that ruled the known World and made blood sport of having their enemies torn to pieces in the arena.

Then over a 300 year period starting with the crucifiction of Jesus Christ that all changed.
When you look at history, it was an AMAZING turn around in Human culture and religion.

The Roman Empire, became the Holy Roman Empire, and the seat of the Christian Church, within 300 years of the crucifiction of Jesus Christ.
Amazing turn around !

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 11:47 AM
recon its best to leave this topic as it'll involve opinions conflict? Might get ugly /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

michapma
08-26-2003, 11:49 AM
The first few posts were interesting, anyway.

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XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 12:20 PM
The poor guy asks why Italy didn't mean much during WWII, and everybody comes up with Rome, the italian renaissance and cardinal Borgia, not to mention Georgio Armani, pizza and pasta.

The fact is Mussolini once was Hitler's example, and the world considered the young nazi germany as a bad copy of italian fascism. As soon as the war started, Italy showed the worst military abilities, despite of its easy victories in Ethiopia or Albania (they even had great difficulties to land their modern army in Tirana, against a handful of villagers armed with powder guns and barely commanded).

Very soon, Mussolini became Hitler's puppet, and was despised by its german ally, though Hitler never let him down, probably for old times sake (by the end of WWII, he even got him out of his jail in the Gran Sasso,where dis compatriots had locked him, to put him back in command). In the desert war, Italy was washed out by the British Corps, while Rommel's Afrika Korps almost won the battle.

Bad commanding ? Poor troop moral ? It's hard to say. Once thing's for sure : Italy was unbeatable in the field of showing off, and threatening the world to revive the roman conquers. When it came to actual war, they didn't enjoy fighting as much as their roman ancestors did, and became masters in the art of switching sides (they were convinced fascists while Germany was winning the war, then they joined the allied side when the Allies took over, then they became fascists again when Hitler put Mussolini back in the saddle, then... they killed Mussolini and finished the war on the allied side !

Let me finish this loooooooooooooooong reply with a funny detail : when he invaded Greece, Mussolini shipped a white horse to Athens, so he could make his imperial triumph there in the roman fashion. Italy, with its perfectly equipped modern army, was beaten by greek peasants, and Italy had to call Hitler for help. Germany crushed the greek resistance in a couple of weeks, and the white horse was sent back to his owner /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 12:27 PM
Lack of motivation. Italian propaganda was not so effective, and the Italian were not too convinced about an imperialist war, specially with Hitler as an ally. The perspective of an Italian Empire in Africa sounded much more attractive to Mussolini than to the common Italian.

In fact, after the allied invasion, Mussolini did not find so much support in his country as Hitler, isn't that true?

- Dux Corvan -

<center>http://www.bloggerheads.com/mash_quiz/images/mash_hawkeye.jpg (http://www.bloggerheads.com/mash_quiz/)</center>

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 12:45 PM
Thanks for the replies gentlemen. Didn't realize this was such a touchy subject! S~

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XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 12:50 PM
kvestion wrote:


- Bad commanding ? Poor troop moral ? It's hard to
- say. Once thing's for sure : Italy was unbeatable in
- the field of showing off, and threatening the world
- to revive the roman conquers. When it came to actual
- war, they didn't enjoy fighting as much as their
- roman ancestors did, and became masters in the art
- of switching sides (they were convinced fascists
- while Germany was winning the war, then they joined
- the allied side when the Allies took over, then they
- became fascists again when Hitler put Mussolini back
- in the saddle, then... they killed Mussolini and
- finished the war on the allied side !
-

Congratulations, the Italian community has decided to entitle you a special A$$headed PIZZA for the greatest accumulation of ignorance and banality in very few words! Good accomplishment, but you can make even better, just add we have moustaches, eat tons of pasta, alway say "mamma mia" support mafia and play mandolinos. You, ridiculous A$$!!!



<FONT COLOR="yellow">BBB_ABRAXA</FONT>

<center>http://ourworld.cs.com/Abra772/mc205_3.jpeg </center>

<marquee> <FONT COLOR="red"> Si vis pacem, para bellum</FONT></marquee>



Message Edited on 08/26/0301:51PM by Abraxa

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 01:01 PM
You forgot that you are always singing opera, and wear white and blue striped T-shirts /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

- Dux Corvan -

<center>http://www.bloggerheads.com/mash_quiz/images/mash_hawkeye.jpg (http://www.bloggerheads.com/mash_quiz/)</center>

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 01:01 PM
truth is almost nobody never gave a damn about mussolini's plans to restore ancient rome's awe splendor and all that (of course that was just a metaphora he used to make it more inspiring for the crowds) and most people who fought in the italian ranks didn't even know what the hell they were doing there, they barely knew who they were fighting against, I take it nearly every man's wish, from any country I'd dare to say, was to get back to his peaceful life, be it italian german or whatever you want it to be, my good grandfather, a humble peasant, founght in Etiopia back in the 30's and barely made it back home, he had been gone for nearly 10 years, and if it was up to him he would have never fought that war, and the other tens of poor men in his home town who died because of those two sick murderers would have done the same for sure... there were about 500 people in his town, about 50 were killed during WW2, needless to say only people from the lowest social ranks were called up for military duty here it Italy if you want to know, cannon fodder to say the least... I don't want to take this post where it doesn't belong to, but I think most people on this forum tend to look at war as something where the greatest deeds of valor and bravery take place, most of them seem to be americans, it's clear they don't even know what the hell they're talking about (neither do I of course), would we please stop arguing about this and get back to playing IL-2? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 01:02 PM
To generalize and say that a characteristic is pronounced for a race is...racism.
To do the same for the inhabitants of a hole nation isn't racism, just plain stupid and ignorant.

My addition to the original question is that most italians weren't cowards anymore than Germans was.
<s>Berlusconis</s> Mussolinis fascism didn't have a public consensus like in Germany at that time.
The common soldier didn't understand why they went to war against their neighbours.

Same thing could be seen in the american soldier in Vietnam. They lacked motivation to fight a war they didn't feel were their war.

Disclaimer: I'm not italian and don't know that much history.

http://members.chello.se/ven/milton.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 01:05 PM
ITA-Joker- wrote:

-
- An Italian discovered your country, -put an
- offensive word here- , and a lot of other things....
- would you please pick a history book and start to
- read it, thanks...
-

Since when is someone from Scandinavia considered to be Italian?

http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/crandall-stormclouds2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 01:07 PM
MiloMorai wrote:
-
- ITA-Joker- wrote:
-
--
-- An Italian discovered your country, -put an
-- offensive word here- , and a lot of other things....
-- would you please pick a history book and start to
-- read it, thanks...
--
-
- Since when is someone from Scandinavia considered to
- be Italian?
-

Or Siberia/Asia? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

cheers/slush


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You can't handle the truth!
Col. Jessep

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 01:08 PM
Abraxa wrote:
- kvestion wrote:

-
- Congratulations, the Italian community has decided
- to entitle you a special A$$headed PIZZA for the
- greatest accumulation of ignorance and banality in
- very few words! Good accomplishment, but you can
- make even better, just add we have moustaches, eat
- tons of pasta, alway say "mamma mia" support mafia
- and play mandolinos. You, ridiculous A$$!!!
-
-

I just love enraged patriots. Keep biting, Mario, if it makes you feel better. I have the feeling you're also going to tell me that general Pariani brilliantly led the albanian campaign in 1938 /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Now, my ridiculous a$$ is french, the french as you know haven't been more glorious in WWII than your fellow people, still I don't scream to death when it comes to it... so please learn to live with WWII's italian cowardice, whcih is nothing but history.

It's all over, chill out.

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 01:09 PM
A?................THEY WERE CRAP?

Hot Space

An Antelope is not just for Christmas - It's for putting in Sandwich's as well!!!

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 01:11 PM
Dont throw rubbish on Italians!

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 01:11 PM
The real nationality of Cristobal Colon is still at discussion. His supporters', not. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

But, that's all. Vengeanze has said the same I did some posts before. The Italian Army didn't fight so well just because they felt they didn't have to. They were able and valiant. And many lost their lives to show it.

Topicals are funny but unreal. Simmers like realistic things. Let's be simmers. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

- Dux Corvan -

<center>http://www.bloggerheads.com/mash_quiz/images/mash_hawkeye.jpg (http://www.bloggerheads.com/mash_quiz/)</center>

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 01:12 PM
Hope this gets locked b4 it gets UGLY.....

IBTL

"We make war that we may live in peace."

Aristotle

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 01:12 PM
The real nationality of Cristobal Colon is still at discussion. His supporters', not. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

But, that's all. Vengeanze has said the same I did some posts before. The Italian Army didn't fight so well just because they felt they didn't have to. They were able and valiant. And many lost their lives to show it.

Topicals are funny but unreal. Simmers like realistic things. Let's be simmers. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

- Dux Corvan -

<center>http://www.bloggerheads.com/mash_quiz/images/mash_hawkeye.jpg (http://www.bloggerheads.com/mash_quiz/)</center>

- Dux Corvan -

<center>http://www.bloggerheads.com/mash_quiz/images/mash_hawkeye.jpg (http://www.bloggerheads.com/mash_quiz/)</center>

- Dux Corvan -

<center>http://www.bloggerheads.com/mash_quiz/images/mash_hawkeye.jpg (http://www.bloggerheads.com/mash_quiz/)</center>

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 01:16 PM
Lithium1970 wrote:
- Dont throw rubbish on Italians!
-
-
-
-
-

Why not, they didn't want to fight.

Hot Space

An Antelope is not just for Christmas - It's for putting in Sandwich's as well!!!

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 01:17 PM
Slush69 wrote:

-
- Or Siberia/Asia?
-

And that was >>>well<<< before Romulus and Remus were sucking on the wolf's teats./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/crandall-stormclouds2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 01:19 PM
It is very incorrect to recall the performance of the ancient roman legions (which, BTW, did not decrease till the fall of the empire - it was just that the number of soldiers facing the external enemies was too low compared to the threat). People of today's Italy have nearly nothing to do with the people of the ancient Rome. The genetic, cultural, religious pattern has changed. This is equally bad as explaining the present traits of Mexico using some properties of the Aztec empire...

For the Italian soldiers, let's recall the bravery they fought for their unity in 19th c., or in the WWI. In WWII, they probably lacked motivation - this was clear for everyone that this is Mussolini's war that brings no good for Italy. What could one win by being brave? Conquer another square mile of sand for the Impero Romano nuovo? I am also inclined to think that all men who were somehow ready to risk their lives have fallen in the previous conflicts. Those who remained just knew what to do to survive. This point is probably even more valid in the case of France. Also, under Mussolini, the whole system that usually supports the troops (from the staffs of various ranks to the supply system to the industrial production) was in the hands of people who were chosen on political basis. This is the way to prevent any system from working.

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 01:19 PM
Kvestion, you're a desperately pathetic case. I don't scream or get angry, monkeys like you just make me laugh. As for our soldiers, read about the respect that people like Rommell or Galland had for them and for their bravery, fighting with a very poor equipment. Then if you don't dare to think your ridiculous opinions are more entitled than Rommel's ones, just go on to eat your monkey peanuts and
STFU. And please learn a very simple distinction between the bravery of the soldiers and the opportunistim of fake generals of a tragic dictatorship if your mind is able to deal with such a complex argument, which I really doubt.


<FONT COLOR="yellow">BBB_ABRAXA</FONT>

<center>http://ourworld.cs.com/Abra772/mc205_3.jpeg </center>

<marquee> <FONT COLOR="red"> Si vis pacem, para bellum</FONT></marquee>

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 01:25 PM
Calling WOP May, calling WOP May. Where are you?

http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/crandall-stormclouds2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 01:26 PM
DuxCorvan wrote:
- The real nationality of Cristobal Colon is still at
- discussion. His supporters', not. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Yeah, the Italians believe he's Italian, the Spanish believe he's Spanish (did you know that Cristobal Colon, at the end of Barcelona's Rambla, isn't pointing towards America but to Tunis? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif ), and in Portugal they believe he's from there.

There even a sad tosser who believes that Columbus was from Norway:

http://muweb.millersville.edu/~columbus/data/art/CCNORWAY.ART


cheers/slush

http://dk.groups.yahoo.com/group/aktivitetsdage/files/Eurotrolls.gif

You can't handle the truth!
Col. Jessep

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 01:26 PM
I know that inedaquate aeronaval strategics (Mussolini didn't believe in carriers for example) hampered Italians on the Mediterranean front during all the war

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 01:37 PM
HansKnappstick wrote:

- People of today's Italy have nearly nothing to do with the
- people of the ancient Rome. The genetic, cultural,
- religious pattern has changed. This is equally bad
- as explaining the present traits of Mexico using
- some properties of the Aztec empire...


I couldn't agree more. This kind of reference always reminds me of scandinavians, who are invariably assimilated to Vikings, while they have been the most peaceful people for ages.



- was clear for everyone that this is Mussolini's war
- that brings no good for Italy. What could one win by
- being brave? Conquer another square mile of sand for
- the Impero Romano nuovo?


Everyone goes by this argument, but let's face it : Mussolini didn't rule Italy by himself, and make millions of italians do what he wished them to do ! One man can't force a nation, and while I agree about the soldier's lack of motivation, I'm not sure that fascist Italy, whioh fought on Hitler's side, was made of innocent victims calling for peace.

They invaded (or tried to invade) Ethiopia, Albania, Greece, North Africa... Hitler never asked them to. And I can't possibly think that Mussolini alone, without any support from his people and army, made his country fight for 5 years on the Axis side.

Italians never were fanatics, but they can't be considered as victims. It's too easy to say that a nation which celebrated the cult of its leader from 1923 to 1945 went to war with tears in its eyes.

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 01:41 PM
Stormer777 wrote:
- Heh it cracks me up when I see Italian flags waving
- in a front yard instead of the American flag. I
- mean... what have they done since R O M E that makes
- them so proud? and do Irish people do the same
- because they're proud of civil war and ale? That's a
- point my history teacher came up with last year. I
- wonder if it's considered being rascist...
-

No, you're just brain-washed and your teacher a poor ignorant.

http://www.goblins.net/immagini/Logo/tdglogo_eng.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 01:44 PM
Slush69 wrote:
-
- DuxCorvan wrote:
-- The real nationality of Cristobal Colon is still at
-- discussion. His supporters', not. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
-
- Yeah, the Italians believe he's Italian, the Spanish
- believe he's Spanish (did you know that Cristobal
- Colon, at the end of Barcelona's Rambla, isn't
- pointing towards America but to Tunis? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif ), and in Portugal they
- believe he's from there.
-
- There even a sad tosser who believes that Columbus
- was from Norway:
-
- <a
- href="http://muweb.millersville.edu/~columbus/data
- /art/CCNORWAY.ART"
- target=_blank>http://muweb.millersville.edu/~colum
- bus/data/art/CCNORWAY.ART</a>
-
-
-
- cheers/slush
-
- <img
- src="http://dk.groups.yahoo.com/group/aktivitetsda
- ge/files/Eurotrolls.gif">
-
- You can't handle the truth!
- Col. Jessep


Norway? I thought it was Wales/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Hot Space


An Antelope is not just for Christmas - It's for putting in Sandwich's as well!!!

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 01:45 PM
No the same thing can't be said about the American soldier in Vietnam.They diddnt lack motivation,and they never lost a battle,75% volunteered to go there.The expansion of Soviet influence was not in Americas best interest specifically,and it was not in the best interest of the free world in general.
There is no comparison.The problem in Vietnam was that a proper plan to win wasn't implemented.The complicating factor was the Chinese and USSR involvement on the side of the North,and the possibility of a direct confrontation with those countries.

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 01:47 PM
Vengeanze wrote:
- <s>Berlusconis</s> Mussolinis fascism didn't have a
- public consensus like in Germany at that time.
-

Moderator, you're great!!!
/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

http://www.goblins.net/immagini/Logo/tdglogo_eng.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 01:49 PM
"The Holy Roman Empire was neither Roman, nor Holy"
-paraphrased quote, forgot by whom

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 01:51 PM
Abraxa wrote:
- Kvestion, you're a desperately pathetic case. I
- don't scream or get angry, monkeys like you just
- make me laugh. As for our soldiers, read about the
- respect that people like Rommell or Galland had for
- them and for their bravery, fighting with a very
- poor equipment. Then if you don't dare to think your
- ridiculous opinions are more entitled than Rommel's
- ones, just go on to eat your monkey peanuts and
- STFU. And please learn a very simple distinction
- between the bravery of the soldiers and the
- opportunistim of fake generals of a tragic
- dictatorship if your mind is able to deal with such
- a complex argument, which I really doubt.
-
-
-


This agressive and isulting tone of yours doesn't do much to prove that I do make you laugh, Mario. Or help you make your point. Calm down before you end up with a headache, chill out, have a glass of water, take a deep breath and if you really want to go on with this argument, stay civilized as I try to be.

Now Italy's WWII is a long list of failures, whether Rommel saluted a handful of Italians or not. If you still want to see it as a glorious war, be my guest. But I seriously doubt that any historian can back you up on this one.

Italy didn't leave more than a tiny mark in this war, the only nations to be remembered are England, Germany, USSR and USA, that's it. Mussolini's new Rome, whether you like it or not, wasn't worth the fuss you make out of it.

Now let me go for a few peanuts.

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 01:54 PM
Italians, and the Savoia for first were guilty of letting Mussolini seize power, that's sure but we tragically paid with the mess of our country, that led to a CIVIL WAR in the years 1943-45, with Italy split in two.
What has this to do with the cowardice of the poor common soldiers? Which is the European country that wasn't involved in colonialism during the 20th century?
There's a lot of ambiguity in Italian history during WW2 as there was in France for Vichy (no offense meant, I sincerely love France and French people) but how the Italians soldiers or the French soldiers who fought bravely in WW1 became suddently a bunch of cowards?
This is a weird way of conceiving history indeed.

<FONT COLOR="yellow">BBB_ABRAXA</FONT>

<center>http://ourworld.cs.com/Abra772/mc205_3.jpeg </center>

<marquee> <FONT COLOR="red"> Si vis pacem, para bellum</FONT></marquee>

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 01:55 PM
kvestion wrote:
-
- They invaded (or tried to invade) Ethiopia, Albania,
- Greece, North Africa... Hitler never asked them to.
- And I can't possibly think that Mussolini alone,
- without any support from his people and army, made
- his country fight for 5 years on the Axis side.
-
-


Was not the only use of poison gas by the Italians in Ethiopia?

-----
Now Italian navy frogmen showed great bravery in the attacks in Alex harbour but the Italian Navy ran from the RN.

http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/crandall-stormclouds2.jpg


Message Edited on 08/26/0308:58AM by MiloMorai

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 01:55 PM
... and that it failed to guarantee a legitimate government in South Vietnam.

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 02:04 PM
kvestion wrote:
-
If you
- still want to see it as a glorious war, be my guest.
- But I seriously doubt that any historian can back
- you up on this one.

Lack of good argumets eh? Where did I say it was a glorious war? All the soldiers that actually fought deserve my respect, regardless of their nationality. It's so simple. Don't try to confuse things.


kvestion wrote:

- Now let me go for a few peanuts.
-
-

good idea, it fits you better than history, Mario will buy some more for you.


<FONT COLOR="yellow">BBB_ABRAXA</FONT>

<center>http://ourworld.cs.com/Abra772/mc205_3.jpeg </center>

<marquee> <FONT COLOR="red"> Si vis pacem, para bellum</FONT></marquee>

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 02:08 PM
Another interesting thing would be to take the Spain into account. The sympathy of the Spanish goverment went clearly towards the axis, nevertheless Spain avoided being involved into the war. I seem to remember a story that Franco's generals advised strongly against any intervention into the war: the help they can give to the Germans would be marginal, the country still beeing far from recovered from the civil war, the consequences of a possible defeat would be disastrous. Pity for Italy its generals lacked that realism...



Italians beeing brave or not, the Italy's involvement into the war was a dramatic drawback for... Germany. Just imagine what would happen if Rommel and his Panzerarmee of 300,000 men were fighting in southern Russia by the end of 1942 instead of sitting in Tunis.

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 02:12 PM
HansKnappstick wrote:

- Italians beeing brave or not, the Italy's
- involvement into the war was a dramatic drawback
- for... Germany. Just imagine what would happen if
- Rommel and his Panzerarmee of 300,000 men were
- fighting in southern Russia by the end of 1942
- instead of sitting in Tunis.
-

Yeah! WE just saved the World from Nazi's domination!!!
/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://www.goblins.net/immagini/Logo/tdglogo_eng.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 02:15 PM
HansKnappstick wrote:
- Another interesting thing would be to take the Spain
- into account. The sympathy of the Spanish goverment
- went clearly towards the axis, nevertheless Spain
- avoided being involved into the war. I seem to
- remember a story that Franco's generals advised
- strongly against any intervention into the war: the
- help they can give to the Germans would be marginal,
- the country still beeing far from recovered from the
- civil war, the consequences of a possible defeat
- would be disastrous. Pity for Italy its generals
- lacked that realism...
-
-
-

Finally a good point! Mussoliny, unlike Franco was a hazard player. At first he opposed Hitler, but then he saw an opportunity to share the benefits of an illuding quick and easy Nazi victory.
Some generals told Mussolini that Italy wouldn't be ready for a war till the year 1942. They were discharged, and the cynical answer Mussolini gave them was "I need some hundred dead soldiers to sit at the table of peace". The rest is the history of a tragedy.



<FONT COLOR="yellow">BBB_ABRAXA</FONT>

<center>http://ourworld.cs.com/Abra772/mc205_3.jpeg </center>

<marquee> <FONT COLOR="red"> Si vis pacem, para bellum</FONT></marquee>

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 02:17 PM
HansKnappstick wrote:
- It is very incorrect to recall the performance of
- the ancient roman legions (which, BTW, did not
- decrease till the fall of the empire - it was just
- that the number of soldiers facing the external
- enemies was too low compared to the threat). People
- of today's Italy have nearly nothing to do with the
- people of the ancient Rome. The genetic, cultural,
- religious pattern has changed. This is equally bad
- as explaining the present traits of Mexico using
- some properties of the Aztec empire...
-
- For the Italian soldiers, let's recall the bravery
- they fought for their unity in 19th c., or in the
- WWI. In WWII, they probably lacked motivation - this
- was clear for everyone that this is Mussolini's war
- that brings no good for Italy. What could one win by
- being brave? Conquer another square mile of sand for
- the Impero Romano nuovo? I am also inclined to think
- that all men who were somehow ready to risk their
- lives have fallen in the previous conflicts. Those
- who remained just knew what to do to survive. This
- point is probably even more valid in the case of
- France. Also, under Mussolini, the whole system that
- usually supports the troops (from the staffs of
- various ranks to the supply system to the industrial
- production) was in the hands of people who were
- chosen on political basis. This is the way to
- prevent any system from working.

I think you wrote the most complete and true post (there were some others very good, like slush69 and garbazz).
I would just add, anyway, that we (Italians) were really not to complain in WWII, since millions of our grandparents supported that dictature and war, being brain-washed since 20 year by the fascist party's propaganda (here I agree somehow with kvestion... but please calm down, you and Abraxa).
"We" were so brain-washed that we tought we were really strong, when we were not. Infantry was poorly equipped, aviation had some good stuff in the later period (MC202-205, G55) but in extremely low amounts, navy was the only one almost ok.
Italians wanted its small colonial empire, challenging British and French ones. They were mentally exalted, but they never realized they were not (yet) an industral and powerful country like Britan, France or Germany.
Just add at this the incompetence of military leaders and the fact that most italians... well, they didn't give a s**t to "die for the honour" stuff...

Anyway, during the independence wars in XIX century and WWI italians did well, there behaved heroically and, as usual, even being dramatically under-equipped. But in that case they were not fighting to give a fake empire to Berlusconi, sorry, Mussolini, but they were fighting for their freedom.

Now let's go play some FB!

Greetings and peace

http://www.goblins.net/immagini/Logo/tdglogo_eng.gif

michapma
08-26-2003, 02:18 PM
HansKnappstick,

Aren't you underplaying the importance of operation Torch? Wasn't there a reason Rommel was in Africa?

Mike

<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10"><tr valign="middle" bgcolor="#3e463b"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr bgcolor="#515e2f"><td width="40%">FB engine management:
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Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
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XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 02:22 PM
Abraxa wrote:
- the cynical answer Mussolini gave
- them was "I need some hundred dead soldiers to sit
- at the table of peace".


Was it really true the famous "Armiamoci e partite!" stuff?
(sorry for non italian-speakers, too difficult to translate effectively)

http://www.goblins.net/immagini/Logo/tdglogo_eng.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 02:23 PM
Limited raw material even some amazed invention war machine but still limited material and low factory numbers to build machines.
Sometime I play as Italtian in strategy wargames to overcome difficult and limited supplies as good challenge. I would love to fly G.50, MC 200/202/205 and SM 79 in FB.

Regards
SnowLeopard

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 02:26 PM
For the Italians out there, what's up with Berlusconi? Seems like Italy is willing to rewrite its laws just to keep him out of trouble. Is this just a misperception?

- please excuse my ignorance, as I've been a victim of the american media all my life

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 02:27 PM
Cippacometa wrote:
-
- Abraxa wrote:
-- the cynical answer Mussolini gave
-- them was "I need some hundred dead soldiers to sit
-- at the table of peace".
-
-
- Was it really true the famous "Armiamoci e partite!"
- stuff?
-
- (sorry for non italian-speakers, too difficult to
- translate effectively)
-

very roughly translated "let US get weapons, then YOU go".
I think it was historically false, but true in substance considering the puppets of fascist hyerarchies /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

<FONT COLOR="yellow">BBB_ABRAXA</FONT>

<center>http://ourworld.cs.com/Abra772/mc205_3.jpeg </center>

<marquee> <FONT COLOR="red"> Si vis pacem, para bellum</FONT></marquee>

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 02:27 PM
At the risk of being simplistic I would say there hart was not in the fight.

That and there tanks had 4 reverse gears and only 1 forward /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif jk

No1RAAF_Pourshot


http://members.optusnet.com.au/~andycarroll68/CAC-15.jpg

CAC CA-15 Kangaroo

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 02:32 PM
perioikos wrote:
- For the Italians out there, what's up with
- Berlusconi? Seems like Italy is willing to rewrite
- its laws just to keep him out of trouble. Is this
- just a misperception?
-
-- please excuse my ignorance, as I've been a victim of the american media all my life
-
-

Berlusconi is the demonstration that history teaches little sometimes *sigh*.
I don't think he has really lot to do with Mussolini, I see him more like a populist-Peron-like form of smooth demo-dictatorship. Sadly, his internal and foreign policy is carrying Italy out of European standards.


<FONT COLOR="yellow">BBB_ABRAXA</FONT>

<center>http://ourworld.cs.com/Abra772/mc205_3.jpeg </center>

<marquee> <FONT COLOR="red"> Si vis pacem, para bellum</FONT></marquee>

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 02:45 PM
Abraxa wrote:
-
- kvestion wrote:

- Lack of good argumets eh? Where did I say it was a
- glorious war?


When I said it wasn't, you called me a monkey, an a$$, an ignorant piece of french ugly crap and it took you 5 posts to speak (more or less) decently again. So yes, I concluded that you were proud of Italy's war, and I still don't think you should.


- All the soldiers that actually fought
- deserve my respect, regardless of their nationality.
- It's so simple. Don't try to confuse things.

Please, Mario. Now you're gaining sympathy by turning this discussion into "I respect soldiers who fought during WWII". Of course you do ! Since when is it about respect or disrespect ? Italian soldiers had a hard time beating Greeks and Albanians, that's a fact. And it means (I guess it'll make you freak out and insult me again) that they were nothing much in military terms.

So we can give them all the respect we want (and of course they deserve some), they still were poor fighters. Deal with it.


- kvestion wrote:
-
-- Now let me go for a few peanuts.
--
-
- good idea, it fits you better than history, Mario
- will buy some more for you.
-

Good progress, Mario. At last you adopted my tone, which I prefer from far to your uncontrolled agressiveness of the beginning. You might even get constructive with time.

Forza Italia !

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 02:52 PM
WalterMitty wrote:
- No the same thing can't be said about the American
- soldier in Vietnam.They diddnt lack motivation,and
- they never lost a battle,75% volunteered to go
- there.The expansion of Soviet influence was not in
- Americas best interest specifically,and it was not
- in the best interest of the free world in general.
-
-
- There is no comparison.The problem in Vietnam was
- that a proper plan to win wasn't implemented.The
- complicating factor was the Chinese and USSR
- involvement on the side of the North,and the
- possibility of a direct confrontation with those
- countries.


Finally someone took the bait. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

I don't agree with you. The common american soldier didn't have a great knowledge of international politics.
Pretty much the same these days (another bait/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif ).

If my CO tells me to go fight and die in Kuala Lumpur because Sweden has some "economic interests" there that needs to be protected I'd feel very reluctant to go.
As soon as the bullets starts to fly I'd be "feck this" and try to leave.
BUT if Finland invaded Sweden I'd die willingly to keep them out of my motherland.
That's what I mean.

I'll say it again; an italian farmer had no interest in invading Greece. He was doing well farming, minding his own. Why all of the sudden invade your neighbour?


Lastly, keep this civil. I'm on the virge to closing this thread but got some good posts.

http://members.chello.se/ven/milton.jpg

michapma
08-26-2003, 02:56 PM
Ven, if Finland invaded my homeland I wouldn't fight to the death. I'd ask them to bring some Swedish brew with them.

C!

<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10"><tr valign="middle" bgcolor="#3e463b"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr bgcolor="#515e2f"><td width="40%">FB engine management:
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XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 02:58 PM
S!

Im not Italian. But where do some of you youngsters get your information from, Pizza, Rome, is that it ??

Italy has been the birthplace of many World renowned scientists, artists, theologians, architects, inventors etc etc etc for hundreds of years.

My god, there place in history is deserving even if the roman empire never existed.

Hats off to you Italy. The world owes you nearly as much as it owes the Brits (ooeerrr) LOL.

As far as the origonal question goes, I dont think I should comment on that LOL.

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 02:58 PM
kvestion wrote:
-
- Good progress, Mario. At last you adopted my tone,
- which I prefer from far to your uncontrolled
- agressiveness of the beginning. You might even get
- constructive with time.

Come on, kvestion, calm down.
Calme toi!
Abraxa did, so you also can do the same.
Maybe you're upset because France did even worst than Italy during WWII, with its immediate defeat, the Vichy governement and so on?
/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
That was nasty, I admit!

Anyway, as an italian who moved to live in France, I can say I that like this country and its people lot, and I get sick reading italians and french quarrel in that way!
Please stop!

- Forza Italia !

NEVER say this!!!
That son of a bi**h of Berlusconi has stolen us also what we used to shout at the stadium!!!!

http://www.goblins.net/immagini/Logo/tdglogo_eng.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 03:03 PM
perioikos wrote:
- For the Italians out there, what's up with
- Berlusconi? Seems like Italy is willing to rewrite
- its laws just to keep him out of trouble. Is this
- just a misperception?
-
-- please excuse my ignorance, as I've been a victim of the american media all my life
-
-

He has been elected thanks to his populistic campaign and to the naivety of our citizens.
He is actually rewriting laws to save his and "his friends'" ***.
He is doing noting to improve our country, but only to benefit his and "his friends'" companies... regarding this last point, it looks a lot like what GWB is doing... with the exception that Berlusca hurts only italians, while GWB get other countries involved it his and "his friends'" business.

http://www.goblins.net/immagini/Logo/tdglogo_eng.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 03:04 PM
Poor recovery from embarass Kvestion. You act just as you tried to represent Italians. Read back your messages with a little of honesty if you can. It was YOU starting offensive generalizations and not distinguishing between the opportunism of a dictatorship - something I never denied - and the respect due to the simple soldiers. I still continue to think that our soldiers had courage to fight in Russia with paper shoes (yes!) or to fight Spitfire in Cr42, with open cockpit an no radio, on the English Channel. I don't build any rethoric on it, as I'm not so fool to think they were the only one to show bravery. I simply don't allow arrogant and generalizing insulting.
Go on to call me Mario, if you enjoy, it just reveals your racist hypocrisy.
I will show more respect and more civil tones when you'll stop to throw stones and childly hide your hands.
Now make me a last favour at least. Leave me alone and let's stop this puppet show.

<FONT COLOR="yellow">BBB_ABRAXA</FONT>

<center>http://ourworld.cs.com/Abra772/mc205_3.jpeg </center>

<marquee> <FONT COLOR="red"> Si vis pacem, para bellum</FONT></marquee>

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 03:19 PM
perioikos wrote:
- For the Italians out there, what's up with
- Berlusconi? Seems like Italy is willing to rewrite
- its laws just to keep him out of trouble. Is this
- just a misperception?


I'm no expert on Italian politics, but from what I understand Italy has a very politicised judiciary that is sometimes used by various political interests to settle scores. At least some of the legal pressure on Berlusconi appears to originate from political rivals. Berlusconi is undeniably a rogue, but the circumstances of this particular action don't necessarily translate neatly into a US or UK equivalent.

Regards,

RocketDog.

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 03:21 PM
perioikos wrote:
- "The Holy Roman Empire was neither Roman, nor Holy"
--paraphrased quote, forgot by whom
-
-
-

As far as I know, the Holy Roman Empire was founded by Emperor Otto I in 962, as an heritage of Charles the Great's Empire, his name being most an effective propaganda and political idearium than a reality. It was mainly a German Empire, and has nothing to do with the Italians, nor the true Romans. That's because it was not Roman at all. If we are talking 'bout History we should try to get informed first.

Leave the Italians alone! Italian culture is a VERY important part of occidental culture. They gave us most of our identity TWICE. The first time with the Roman City, Law and Army. The second, with Renaissance Arts and Humanistic Phylosophy, and Science. We owe them a lot. Why have they to justify? Would you have prefered Mussolini to win? They fought, they did their bit, they were not motivated, they had no luck, they lost. And?

As I've said before, topicals are funny but unreal. The only truth is that human beings are more or less the same, and they act for the very same reasons.

Let's never forget it.


- Dux Corvan -

<center>http://www.bloggerheads.com/mash_quiz/images/mash_hawkeye.jpg (http://www.bloggerheads.com/mash_quiz/)</center>

michapma
08-26-2003, 03:26 PM
- As I've said before, topicals are funny but unreal.
- The only truth is that human beings are more or less
- the same, and they act for the very same reasons.
-
- Let's never forget it.

If you go on posting this way we're going to run out of interesting threads.

<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10"><tr valign="middle" bgcolor="#3e463b"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr bgcolor="#515e2f"><td width="40%">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)</td><td align="center">

‚ =69.GIAP=Chap‚

69.GIAP (http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/giap/)</p></td><td width="40%" align="right" valign="top">Hardware:
Flight Simulation Performance Analyzed (http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_062a.html)
Building a home-made throttle quadrant step by step (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=zkavv)
Sound Can Be Hazardous for Games (http://www6.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/index.html)</td></tr></table>

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 03:29 PM
Oh its easy to defend yourself when attacked directly,that dosnt take courage thats just self-preservation instinct.Its another matter when someone attacks your friend,or indirectly attacks you,then a person could look the other way.
Communism wasnt politics it was gangsterism,based on repression,terror and a publicly stated goal of world domination based in the Kremlin.Inspiring and assisting other countries around the world was a tactic,when successful it increased Soviet power.

And just how do you know what the American soldier has "great knowledge" in?It looks to me that because YOU can't comprehend what the policies of the U.S. are motivated by,in past and present,you project your own ignorance on them.

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 03:30 PM
RocketDog wrote:
-
-
- I'm no expert on Italian politics, but from what I
- understand Italy has a very politicised judiciary
- that is sometimes used by various political
- interests to settle scores. At least some of the
- legal pressure on Berlusconi appears to originate
- from political rivals. Berlusconi is undeniably a
- rogue, but the circumstances of this particular
- action don't necessarily translate neatly into a US
- or UK equivalent.
-

I'm not against Berlusconi because I'm with his opponents. Simply, Berlusconi would be an anomaly in any other advanced western country. In any other of these countries the anti-trust laws would prevent him to be the PM. Now, some of the legal pressure on him may be originated by his opponents, but what about a man that consider the English magazine "The Economist" as influenced by the communists (!) simply because it writes against his affairs? Don't forget he has legal issues going on not just in our country.

Cheers

<FONT COLOR="yellow">BBB_ABRAXA</FONT>

<center>http://ourworld.cs.com/Abra772/mc205_3.jpeg </center>

<marquee> <FONT COLOR="red"> Si vis pacem, para bellum</FONT></marquee>

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 03:53 PM
I loved Berlusconi's quip when Jaques Chiraq decided to intrude on the recent diplomatic brouhaha between Italy and Germany. IIRC, he said - "President Chiraq has once again missed an opportunity to remain silent".

Elegant and so to the point.



Blutarski

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 03:58 PM
Let us not forget the great and pivotal Battle of Lepanto. Were it not for the efforts made by city states of Venice and Genoa against Ottoman westward expansion during the Renaissance, much of Europe may have been Muslim today.



Blutarski

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 03:59 PM
Berlusconi elegant and to the point for once?

He must have been absent minded at that moment /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

<FONT COLOR="yellow">BBB_ABRAXA</FONT>

<center>http://ourworld.cs.com/Abra772/mc205_3.jpeg </center>

<marquee> <FONT COLOR="red"> Si vis pacem, para bellum</FONT></marquee>

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 04:03 PM
Theyve changed strategy and tactics.

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 04:14 PM
I didn't mean to imply that the Holy Roman Empire was either ... but rather the opposite. My reply was an off the cuff remark in response to the following excerpt from a previous post:

"The Roman Empire, became the Holy Roman Empire, and the seat of the Christian Church, within 300 years of the crucifiction of Jesus Christ."

I rather respect the Italians for what they did during the war, in that I wonder if it's not harder to refuse to fight for something that you don't believe in than to fight for something you don't.

Historically speaking, Greece and Rome remain the primary base for western civilization.

I apologize if I was unclear and inadvertantly cast an aspersion.

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 04:21 PM
After all the lawsuits, or charges, brought against Berlusconi, why hasn't he been convicted? Have the cases been not been proven, or has the judicial process been subverted. I ask, because I've heard of like 9 cases brought against him, and 8 were dismissed or aquitted. He looks the rogue, and how any one person can be allowed so much power over the media is beyond me, but still, since he hasn't been convicted, it makes me wonder how much of this might just be politics.

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 04:23 PM
kvestion wrote:
- The poor guy asks why Italy didn't mean much during
-
(SNIP)

When it came to actual
- war, they didn't enjoy fighting as much as their
- roman ancestors did, and became masters in the art
- of switching sides (they were convinced fascists
- while Germany was winning the war, then they joined
- the allied side when the Allies took over, then they
- became fascists again when Hitler put Mussolini back
- in the saddle, then... they killed Mussolini and
- finished the war on the allied side !


I find your characterization of the Republic of Salo interesting, to say the least.

I'd just like to know where you found evidence to back up your assertion that the "Italians were switching sides," as if all of Italy became part of the RSI.

Can you please provide proof of your remarks?




<img src=http://www.johnsonsmith.com/images/p1039.jpg>

Eeeeeeeeeee.......

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 04:38 PM
Yah know folks, I know this sounds crazy but after reading all of this stuff on Italy, I could really go for some italian food....anyway back to Italy and the war.

The reasons why Italy did poorly during the war was becuse they were poorly equiped and poorly led (at the top levels) They had a leader who really didn't give a rats azz about the welfare of his soldiers- all Mussolini wanted was to get his name in the papers. The soldiers didn't really have a clear mission in WW2 either. As for the perfomance of the soldiers, I would say they preformed admirably, considering what little good equipment they had. Units such as Decima Mas and the Folgore division are good examples.

Capt Arnold

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 04:52 PM
I also heard that, despite some loud loyalists, most Italians hated Mussolini's guts. Was that true? If so, then couldn't their combat performance be seen as a form of passive resistance, turned into open resistance when they switched sides?

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 05:05 PM
Maybe the fact that so many Itlians died in the first world war fighting with the brits and french against germany meant that 20 or so years afterwards they weren't too keen on fighting with the Germans- I read somewhere that many of them had difficulty accepting medals from German officiers because their fathers had fought against them.
You have to admit that fighting along side a country your dad fought against isn't very motivating.

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 05:15 PM
Mussolini was loved my most part of the italians during the 30's years.... after this his popularity decreased, specially during the war when the people could not find anything to eat and the cites were massively bombed by the allies..... to not talk about the civil war 43-46. But at the begin Mussolini seemed to be the right man to drive italy to a new era , he was ok with the majoir business family of the era...and the low levels of the population got some benefits form the fascism..... keep in mind that at the time there was not strange to live into a dictature or even a nation leaeded by a king with real powers ( not like we have today ).


ABOUT the war..... italy had not real industry to produce massively ....not even raw materials cept for some coal and iron ( but small quantity ).
Italian economy/production was not ready to efford a war, his ally germany was preparing for war by 3 years at least.
So no suprise that italy could not assist his soldiers in the field producing 200 planes years and 200 tanks year ( numbers are not accurate....but the production was low low low ).

All the rest is BS....morale...poor lead.....cowardy, YOU can't fight without equipment.

That is what happen to italy in ww2.

Even Germany with all his Uber industry and equipment was overruned by hordes or enemy planes and tanks.

Just a question of numbers folks.

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 05:19 PM
sightreader wrote:
- I also heard that, despite some loud loyalists, most
- Italians hated Mussolini's guts. Was that true? If
- so, then couldn't their combat performance be seen
- as a form of passive resistance, turned into open
- resistance when they switched sides?
-
-

I understand that this aspect of Italian history can be difficult to understand. I'll try to point it out some facts that can help to understand.
Mussolini actually had the support of a big part of Italians but I'd say that he had much more opponents that Hitler had.
In Italy there was a strange form of diarchy since Mussolini was "just" the PM, but we had the monarchy till 1946, and the King discharged Mussolini in 1943. You could say that Italy was already splitted before the war not only in fascists, and opponents of the fascism, but even in fascists and monarchics. That's an element of further complexity. Hitler had the full power in his hands, not so for Mussolini, and for many reason. And here is part the seed of the 1943-45 Italian civil war. With the "cobelligerating monarchy" at the south, the Fascist RSI allied with Germans at the North, and communist/socialist partisans in the mountains.
Germany, unlike Italy, lost WW1 and felt badly humiliated by the 1918-19 "Diktat" and was animaqted by a strong desire of revenge. This helped Hitler to seize power and became a focal point for the rearming of Germany since 1933.
Things were totally different in Italy. The Italian projects of arming can't be compared to the German ones. Mussolini's colonial policy aimed mostly to guarantee foreign lands for Italian workers (the "Empire" in Africa). There wasn't a project to conquer Europe militarly! From 1922 up to that point (1939/40) Mussolini's policy of European peace and colonisation of northern Africa could count on a large internal support.
Things changed totally when Mussolini's hazard led Italians to fight other European nations they had the lesser interest (or grudge feelings) to fight against or revenge. At that moment, the Italians had to face a disaster that had not the lesser hystorical and cultural root in the Italian soul. You could even say they had no historical motivation to fight that war to the last man, as could be the historical case of Germany.
This, said in an extremely simplistic form, can help to explain part of the great difference between the Italian and the German dictatorships, their origins and what they aimed to.


<FONT COLOR="yellow">BBB_ABRAXA</FONT>

<center>http://ourworld.cs.com/Abra772/mc205_3.jpeg </center>

<marquee> <FONT COLOR="red"> Si vis pacem, para bellum</FONT></marquee>



Message Edited on 08/26/0306:34PM by Abraxa

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 05:38 PM
FAFL_Aguirre wrote:
- Maybe the fact that so many Itlians died in the
- first world war fighting with the brits and french
- against germany meant that 20 or so years afterwards
- they weren't too keen on fighting with the Germans-
- I read somewhere that many of them had difficulty
- accepting medals from German officiers because their
- fathers had fought against them.
- You have to admit that fighting along side a country
- your dad fought against isn't very motivating.



well, in the early northafrica campagne, there were no germans. the Italians outnumbered the british pretty bad, but still those pushed the italian army back .
and also the italian greece campagne. no german in the early weeks.or did hitler ordered mussolini to attack his neighbour ? (may a unknow fact ? )

http://www.bayern.de/Layout/wappen.gif

Bavaria is one of the oldest European states.
It dates back to about 500 A.D., when the Roman Empire was overcome by the onslaught of Germanic tribes. According to a widespread theory, the Bavarian tribe had descended from the Romans who remained in the country, the original Celtic population and the Germanic invaders.

Bavarian History : http://www.bayern.de/Bayern/Information/geschichteE.html#kap0

Message Edited on 08/26/0304:40PM by Boandlgramer

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 05:38 PM
An old friend of mine (who is 100% Italian/American and proud of it) said man-for-man, Italians are the best fighters in the world. But put a bunch of them together in an army and they can't do anything because they spend so much time fighting each other. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 05:44 PM
Italy was really caught in the momentum of the day, and so wound up getting pulled into something they were neither prepared for or avoidable, the worst of all circumstances.

First, Europe was being divided into two camps - Allied and Axis - with little option to opt out.

Spain was at an advantage due to it's location in Europe - it's the pathway to Portugal, and that's really about it. Gibralter was controlled by the British, so the straight into the Med wasn't really their concern.

Switzerland has it's mountains, which makes it a huge PITA, especially when taking into account it had a small but dedicated armed force to back it up. It's simply too costly to take Switzerland for the advantages you receive.

So if you were a power in Europe, as the Italians were (although a weak one) you have to pick a side.

It made more sense to side with the Axis, as they were not only aligned politically (in many regards), but indeed were the major threat. Add in that with Germany as an Ally you can do some expansion of your own, it's a natural.

The problems start immediately after you declare one side or the other, though. Since Italy went Axis, let's just deal with that.

First, WWII was simply an extension of WWI, an "undoing" of the wrongs of the Versailles treaty. For Germany, this was actually a high priority down to the man-starving-on-the-street level. Shaping a total war economy was more than simply building up to knock things down, it was the means they used to get the people working (and eating) again. The industrial machine of Germany had been repressed during the intra-war years, but was ready to leap into action at the first opportunity.

Italy had fared much better after WWI, and so didn't have the large reserve of inactive industry to bring into the fore. Their industry was already humming along doing what it needed for peacetime, and not much more. They weren't building a wartime economy from a vaccuum, but rather having to convert what already existed; and there wasn't much that could be converted (as you need a baseline of industry for supporting your civilians). They were also terribly inefficient in directing industry, something the Germans did not worry with!

It didn't have the huge pool of unemployed civilians to draw on, either, like Germany did. When they pulled folks in for military service, those people were largely leaving something active and not living too harshly.

There weren't grand, unified goals to the war for Italy. For Germany there most certainly were - from reclaiming occupied territory within their own borders, "uniting German peoples all over Europe" to the horrid but successfuly stated purposes of Lebenstraum.

Italy could scarcely boldly state to their people that the fight was to rightfully place Greece back within it's borders! And claims on Northern Africa would have to harken back to the Roman era, which was, of course, ancient history.

Consequently, they suffered throughout the war. Individually, and in small groups, the Italians were as good as any soldiers on the field. To say otherwise would be completely untrue. It's on the larger level is where they get into trouble - strategically it wasn't coherent, inefficient, and in some cases ineptly lead.

By the time the Allies had landed in Italy and pushed off the beach it all just fell apart from them because of this, and they did the only sensable thing. They switched sides, which was encouraged by the Allies in good faith.

There wasn't a single good "reason" for Italy to get into WWII - they simply didn't have the option of staying out of it, and so were swept along for the ride, without clear goals and a national will to dedicate to the fight. I doubt that the leadership at the time is really relevant - simply a matter of how quickly and well they fell into it.

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 05:45 PM
"If my CO tells me to go fight and die in Kuala Lumpur because Sweden has some "economic interests" there that needs to be protected I'd feel very reluctant to go.
As soon as the bullets starts to fly I'd be "feck this" and try to leave."

And there, in a nutshell, is the perfect description of why some nations have effective militaries, and some don't.

Say "feck this" and try to leave in one of my units and I'll shoot you dead on the spot.

It IS NOT, and has NEVER BEEN, the place of the soldier to question the politics of a given military situation - which is a perfect example of why the American model of having the military completely subordinate to the political structure works.



"He is doing noting to improve our country, but only to benefit his and "his friends'" companies... regarding this last point, it looks a lot like what GWB is doing... with the exception that Berlusca hurts only italians, while GWB get other countries involved it his and "his friends'" business."

Excuse me, numbnuts, but I'd like you to explain really slowly to me what in the living hell my president has to do with whatever moron the EU and Italy have decided to put into power this week and a discussion of the relative merits of the Italian military in WW2.

If you can't come up with anything more intelligent than "let's sideswipe an exceptionally popular American president for giggles since we're being led by a crook" I suggest you pass on further discussion.

Here's a newsflash, just because it'll p*ss fools like you off:

George is going to win re-election easily. The economy is swinging up and there isn't a Democrat in the lot of them that can beat him. So get used to it.



I'm going to give you ANOTHER newsflash:

United States Marines are in Liberia, ordered there at great risk by my President. We have ZERO economic interest in Liberia. None WHATSOEVER.

So, young men are being sent to fight and die in a country for no reasons other than:

1) The UN and particularly the French troops who were there as peacekeepers are too ineffective, weak and cowardly to do their jobs and save these people.

2) It's the right thing to do, even though some young Americans are going to come home in bodybags to save people in a country they know nothing about and have no personal interest in AT ALL.

THAT is courage, both on the part of my President and those Marines, and you are too ignorant to recognize it.



Come to think of it... this reminds me of the garbage spewed about Reagan in the 80's... my, how little things change.

There's a wall down, you stooge, and it's down because an American president put everything on the line when it mattered - because no one else had the courage to do it. The brave German people knocked down a wall, but an AMERICAN PRESIDENT gave them the hammer to do it with.

Well... Maggie helped quite a bit...


PS - A note to my British friends...
I see what you mean. I wouldn't want to join up with this either.


************************************************** ****

I'll take my car with 382 fully forged cubic inches of fire-breathing, MPFI, nitrous sniffing, all aluminum, tire-roasting Chevrolet power, thank you very much.


"If you can turn, you aren't going fast enough."


Message Edited on 08/26/0312:59PM by SpearchuckerJ

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 05:50 PM
BAD leader just like Germany

---------------------------------------
A to the K to 4 to the 7 little
devils dont go heaven Freedom got a AK
---------------------------------------

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 05:54 PM
Stormer777 wrote:
- Heh it cracks me up when I see Italian flags waving
- in a front yard instead of the American flag. I
- mean... what have they done since R O M E that makes
- them so proud? and do Irish people do the same
- because they're proud of civil war and ale? That's a
- point my history teacher came up with last year. I
- wonder if it's considered being rascist...


Pizza. And the BEST wine in the world. French wine is yak urine in comparison.

Regards,

SkyChimp

http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/tiger.jpg


Message Edited on 08/26/0308:56PM by SkyChimp

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 05:56 PM
theres a world of difference between the us army in vietnam and italy in ww2. in vietnam the us army won EVERY single battle through the war in vietnam. whereas the italians lost almost every battle unless they had german help. i dont want to upset of a certain mod but that was an ignorant reply. we pulled out of vietnam due to public pressure. we didnt lose any battle.not one.we had the best trained and supported army. we never needed help in nam. bad politicians making bad strategic decicisons telling us where we were not allowed to fight or bomb kept the war going. as for the italians only mussolini wanted to be at war. he had no backing from his peers or his country. huge difference with germany. germans truly felt they were in the right and were unstoppable. and loved their ruler who pulled them out of a depression and restored their honor. they would die for him. not so for mussolini. i know people are flipping out about what ill say next but its true so deal with it. germans were a warlike people. italians were not. and thats the real answer. yes americans are very warlike too. were very good at it. and always getting better.

www.fighterjocks.net (http://www.fighterjocks.net) home of the 11 time Champions Team AFJ. 6 Years Flying http://www.world-data-systems.com/aerofiles/albums/userpics/p47-22.jpg 47|FC=

www.fighterjocks.net (http://www.fighterjocks.net) home of the 11 time Champions Team AFJ. 6 Years Flying http://www.world-data-systems.com/aerofiles/albums/userpics/p47-22.jpg 47|FC=

Message Edited on 08/26/0304:57PM by RedDeth

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 06:06 PM
of course, the "vino" from italy is one of the best, but skychimp ,you have no clue about wine, if you are claiming, the french wine is a yak urine.

poor skychimp . http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.bayern.de/Layout/wappen.gif

Bavaria is one of the oldest European states.
It dates back to about 500 A.D., when the Roman Empire was overcome by the onslaught of Germanic tribes. According to a widespread theory, the Bavarian tribe had descended from the Romans who remained in the country, the original Celtic population and the Germanic invaders.

Bavarian History : http://www.bayern.de/Bayern/Information/geschichteE.html#kap0

Message Edited on 08/26/0305:06PM by Boandlgramer

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 06:27 PM
Abraxa wrote:
- I understand that this aspect of Italian history can
- be difficult to understand. I'll try to point it out
- some facts that can help to understand.
-

So it sounds like there's a whole bunch of little reasons, but no obvious big reason for the poor performance of the Italians. From what I see, this would be a summary of your points:

1. Mussolini did not have absolute power
2. Italians had no grudge against other Europeans.
3. The economy was designed for peactime performance, not wartime performance.

Is that a valid summary?

Hey, by the way, I heard French Communists were sabotaging French military equipment even after Poland was invaded. Were political divisions in France a factor in their defeat?

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 06:30 PM
Honestly, and not to stir too much dust up, but we're slowing walking backing away from Liberia. The marines have moved offshore. There's no joy to be had in Liberia.

Concering the French. Politics aside, it doesn't seem right to disparage the French Marines like that. Can't remember which recent American General it was who said that the French Marines were as fine a group of soldier as he'd seen.

You've got to do what you believe in ... don't seem right to do something you don't believe in.

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 06:33 PM
RedDeth wrote:
- we never needed help in
- nam. bad politicians making bad strategic decicisons
- telling us where we were not allowed to fight or
- bomb kept the war going.

was Vietnam subjected to little bombing? Really? Surely wasn't nuked but...
No offense meant, but the story of the war lost for political reason always sounds like a well crafted self consolation. Every country in its history has to face a defeat and to deal with it. It most likely happens when a war is fought for reasons that soldiers and common people don't deeply feel or share. If every battle had been won how did the politicians manage to make it lost?
As for warlike people, I don't see a single western country showing this quality in a diffused form among the people. I see countries with highly technological and well equipped armies, or even with some super professional elite units, but if we speak about the "warrior" quality of a nation and its people it's something becoming progressively extraneous to the western civilized man, despite how aggressive the policy of western countries may be.
Warlike attitude seems much more diffused between some Arabs nations, the Israelis or even some Slavian people, but no way between the western people, we are too "welfared" for it.
Something like that happened to the Romans too. At the highest point of the Empire they probably thought it was easier to pay a mercenary army to fight for you... and the decadence of the "warrior virtue" of the Romans probably started at that moment.


<FONT COLOR="yellow">BBB_ABRAXA</FONT>

<center>http://ourworld.cs.com/Abra772/mc205_3.jpeg </center>

<marquee> <FONT COLOR="red"> Si vis pacem, para bellum</FONT></marquee>

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 06:43 PM
hi

sorry to tell u this the Roman Empire did not become the Holy Roman Empire as you stated. The empire of rome just melted away. In fact the last emperior was forces to abidcated in around 470 AD. By that time Rome was a just a paper power in reality it ceased to be a power a generation or two before. The holy Roman Empire came to being wih the reign of the corolingian kings and emperiors, that was around 800 AD -1300 AD. There area of rule of was parts of France, holland and northern and southern Germany give or take a few states. The use Roman law and customs to govern their society and hence the claim they were the inheritors of the Romaan Empire. The seal of approval gave it some form of legitamatcy, but alas when u a sword at ur throat u would say anything. Also do not forget the city states lilke venince and florence in the 15th century, they were extermly powerful and their fleets were alway out for hire.


As for the fighting abilities of the Italatians, they surived as a culture since the collapse of Roman, suffered at the hands of other invaders, but they form a new nation in the 1870s, was on the winning side in WW1 lost heart in WW2. They gave us intellectual thinking and art in the renassence period, in which they had gathered from the Islamic empire. The beat of the muslims in the 5ths -6th centuries, Sent troops to the crusades, etc etc, There is lots of things they have done in the Military sense but we just do not hear about them any more. We only here about american or british military explolites.

Is anyone here going to argue with the Mafia?

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 06:45 PM
i missed out the seal of papal authority, sorry.

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 06:47 PM
sightreader wrote:
- Abraxa wrote:
-- I understand that this aspect of Italian history can
-- be difficult to understand. I'll try to point it out
-- some facts that can help to understand.
--
-
- So it sounds like there's a whole bunch of little
- reasons, but no obvious big reason for the poor
- performance of the Italians. From what I see, this
- would be a summary of your points:
-
- 1. Mussolini did not have absolute power
- 2. Italians had no grudge against other Europeans.
- 3. The economy was designed for peactime
- performance, not wartime performance.
-
- Is that a valid summary?
-

well if we simplify what I already called an extreme synthesis it may sound like this /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif but maybe it's just my bad synthesis.
I just tried to name some objective, storical and psychological facts. They all concur to make a country like Italy in those years totally unprepared and globally unfit to war. To stay on your third point. Italy had an industrial structure not even barely comparable to the German one. I'd say we totally missed the "culture" of massive industrial production. Italian economy was mainly based on agriculture, surely not on industry and this made a lot of difference in respect of any other European countries (not to say of USA or Germany).
If you compare the Italian and the German industrial development (not just military) during the thirties up to the war, the difference is really striking and self explaining of what were the aims, despite the fact that the Fascism tried to give some boost to our industrial and military productions. But you have to think that the Italian army of the colonial time had almost exclusively to deal with the Ethiopians and the extremely poorly armed African armies.


<FONT COLOR="yellow">BBB_ABRAXA</FONT>

<center>http://ourworld.cs.com/Abra772/mc205_3.jpeg </center>

<marquee> <FONT COLOR="red"> Si vis pacem, para bellum</FONT></marquee>

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 06:56 PM
****It IS NOT, and has NEVER BEEN, the place of the soldier to question the politics of a given military situation - which is a perfect example of why the American model of having the military completely subordinate to the political structure works.*****



Sorry you are wrong, in the British Army it is every soldiers right to refuse an order that he deems immoral. It other words if an officer says shoot that family, the soldier can say go to hell. Queen regulations.


Now are u saying in your statement that it was ok for the SS and Werhmact units who took part in mass slaughte of civiilians in WW2 to hide behind what u just said. No in Nurmemburg, this was over turned and the solider should of question it. Though I do admit they never give alternative to what if one was ordered to shoot and if they refuse they be killed themselves. That a side, the masscares of bosinia, rwanda etc were in the same light all obeying orders. It seems europe has learn its lesson that mititary might does not equal right, and the USA has yet to learn this in the growing up proccess. Not insult intended. Anyway there are 100s of british soldiers who refused to fight in the gulf war2 why queens regulations. I am sure the US army has the same type of rights for a privite or any other soldier if they do not they should have. To me to me it beggars belief that a soceity with the liberties the USA has, and its call to the higher ground on human rights, it will not allow its own soliders to tried for war crimes if the evidence seems to point that way. Of course they are consider innocent until proven quilty. but the point is taken. If the quote is a true reflexation of the status of what the US military thinks then no wonder they will not allow US forces to stand up to be tried. After all the are masscaring pows in afnganistan and killing people at a whim in iraq now.

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 06:59 PM
Isatheprophet,
the part of bavaria where i am living was part in the roman empire. Danube river was the northern border to germania.
there are remnants of the roman north-south street few kilometers away from my home .
as well former celtic military castles in the west of my village.
we are proud about , why not. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

http://www.bayern.de/Layout/wappen.gif

Bavaria is one of the oldest European states.
It dates back to about 500 A.D., when the Roman Empire was overcome by the onslaught of Germanic tribes. According to a widespread theory, the Bavarian tribe had descended from the Romans who remained in the country, the original Celtic population and the Germanic invaders.

Bavarian History : http://www.bayern.de/Bayern/Information/geschichteE.html#kap0

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 07:17 PM
This strikes me as a silly topic, but the problem to me seems to have its roots in Italian history and modern societal structure insomuch as anything else. Take a look at Italy's manufacturing prowess and its military prowess in the war years as something that can be linked to historical developments. Many Italian concerns are world class. Before the war, one could count among them: Beretta, Moto Guzzi, Alfa Romeo, and others I am certainly forgetting, but their engineering concerns, while stacking up well against anything the world could offer in their specific areas, suffered from being rather boutique operations. The same is evident post-war. Firms like Ferrari, Maserati, Ducati, and Aprilia all make products that are world class, and three of the above mount highly effective international motorsports campaigns that are models of R&D and organizational skill.

However, when this elite competitive spirit is translated into larger things, Italy seems to lag. Fiat cannot or will not compete in the competitive North American car market. The nation, only formed out of squabbling principalities and city-states as recently as 1870, has had upwards of sixty governments since World War 2. The economy still struggles with official corruption and organized crime problems. Many state services are routinely lambasted for their inefficiency. Even Beretta has fallen off in terms of product innovation in its primary markets and has been overtaken from where it stood in the 1980s.

Therefore, there seems something endemic to modern Italian culture that sees excellent small scale efforts failing to translate into national or international efforts. Italians have always had brilliant elite military forces, small engineering companies that can compete with anyone in the world, and excellent individual endeavors in a myriad of fields, but has somehow never quite made it to world power/class status in anything requiring the mass organization or mobilization of society at large. Why this is I have no idea, but it seems to be the same phenomenon that undercut their efforts in World War 2, a coterie of brilliant tactical operators (they invented the "frogman") and engineering and design firms undercut by poor leadership, substandard societal organization, inefficient resource allocation, and inability to mass produce machinery of uniform quality, or fight as a large scale army.

I still love to visit, especially the Dolomites.



Message Edited on 08/26/0311:20AM by NavyFlyer

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 07:27 PM
BA_Dart wrote:

- Spain was at an advantage due to it's location in
- Europe - it's the pathway to Portugal, and that's
- really about it. Gibralter was controlled by the
- British, so the straight into the Med wasn't really
- their concern.


Well, Spain had the cities of Tarifa, Ceuta and Melilla, controlling the Gibraltar Pass from both sides, Africa and Europe. With German assistance, Gibraltar British bases would have been isolated and inoperative. There was even a German plan, "Felix", to capture Gibraltar with Spanish help. Churchill himself said: "The only thing I have to thank Franco is that Spain had the key of the Mediterranean, and never used it against us".


- Dux Corvan -

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XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 07:36 PM
lavazza wrote: All the rest is BS....morale...poor
- lead.....cowardy, YOU can't fight without equipment.


Quite agree. It took a brave man to go into combat in a functionally obsolete M13/40, or a Fiat biplane fighter, or to fight on foot with hand-me-down WW1 equipment against a fully motorized opponent. Quite apart from all the wartime propaganda, plenty of Italian soldiers fought bravely and effectively in North Africa - the Ariete and Trieste divisions (the only two motorized units) almost always operated in conjunction with the DAK. The Folgore parachute division was considered an elite opponent even by the Brits. And Rommel thought quite highly of Italian artillery, which performed relative wonders with its obsolete WW1 guns and equipment.

A good English language reference on Italy's part in the North African campaign is ROMMEL'S NORTH AFRICAN CAMPAIGN, by Greene & Massignani.



Blutarski

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 07:39 PM
By the way, talking about Gibraltar. Colonial era has finished yet. Hong Kong has returned to China. Why have the Spanish to stand a colony in our territory? And if we are to respect the terms of Utrecht Treaty of 1713,

1- Get back to the border specified in the Treaty: There's a whole airport beyond that line.

2- If Gibraltar people obtain their independence, the Rock must return to Spain: The Treaty says clearly that the territory can only stop being British to be Spanish again.

3- If those terms of the Treaty are not to be respected, let's not respect any of them. Bring back the Rock!

4- Gimme 1.000.000 euros. Well, this part is to be negotiated. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Well, since we are starting WW2 again /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif I'm gonna try to take a piece of the cake!!! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

- Dux Corvan -

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XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 07:41 PM
Your analysis is very good Navyflyer. I think that some reasons are rooted in our more or less recent history.
You named some of the finest brands (one for all, Ferrari). Keep in mind they were all born like an almost artigianal realities, no way linked to the mass production. You can say the same even recently in the field of fashion. Actually the best part of our production was and partly still is a small scale production, of the finest quality, but still of medium small scale. Is this an heritage of our only relatively recent unification of formerly indipendend little states? (Still today we are the land of great contradictions. The Southern Italy affected by a major crisis of unemployment, while a couple of Northern regions are the richest European lands).
Were the few largest industries too well politically linked and protected to allow the more vital part of our productive creativity being supported and helped to grow?
Basically, in Italy only one big heavy industrial reality lasted in the years, namely the Fiat, but the history of a messing internal protectionism has probably compromised its ability and culture to upgrade and survive.
Giovanni Agnelli, the last man of the Fiat "dynasty" died recently, and the fate of the last surviving Italian industrial empire appears to be extremely uncertain.

<FONT COLOR="yellow">BBB_ABRAXA</FONT>

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<marquee> <FONT COLOR="red"> Si vis pacem, para bellum</FONT></marquee>


Message Edited on 08/26/0309:01PM by Abraxa

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 07:55 PM
Isatheprophet wrote:
- ****It IS NOT, and has NEVER BEEN, the place of the
- soldier to question the politics of a given military
- situation - which is a perfect example of why the
- American model of having the military completely
- subordinate to the political structure works.*****
-
-
-
- Sorry you are wrong, in the British Army it is every
- soldiers right to refuse an order that he deems
- immoral. It other words if an officer says shoot
- that family, the soldier can say go to hell. Queen
- regulations.
-
-
- Now are u saying in your statement that it was ok
- for the SS and Werhmact units who took part in mass
- slaughte of civiilians in WW2 to hide behind what u
- just said. No in Nurmemburg, this was over turned
- and the solider should of question it. Though I do
- admit they never give alternative to what if one was
- ordered to shoot and if they refuse they be killed
- themselves. That a side, the masscares of bosinia,
- rwanda etc were in the same light all obeying
- orders. It seems europe has learn its lesson that
- mititary might does not equal right, and the USA has
- yet to learn this in the growing up proccess. Not
- insult intended. Anyway there are 100s of british
- soldiers who refused to fight in the gulf war2 why
- queens regulations. I am sure the US army has the
- same type of rights for a privite or any other
- soldier if they do not they should have. To me to
- me it beggars belief that a soceity with the
- liberties the USA has, and its call to the higher
- ground on human rights, it will not allow its own
- soliders to tried for war crimes if the evidence
- seems to point that way. Of course they are consider
- innocent until proven quilty. but the point is
- taken. If the quote is a true reflexation of the
- status of what the US military thinks then no wonder
- they will not allow US forces to stand up to be
- tried. After all the are masscaring pows in
- afnganistan and killing people at a whim in iraq
- now.
-
-
-
-
-
You ignored the part about politics.
You are full of it.What is it?Leftist fruitcake/Islamist propaganda B.S.
And NO your type will NOT have any jurisdiction concerning the actions of the U.S. soldiers.Why? Because we don't trust you either.The growing up process?Ha don't make me laugh,I'd say your type is getting senile.France can't even acknowledge that Hamas is a terrorist organization.

You can take your moral relavitism and equivelence and shove it.



Message Edited on 08/26/0301:59PM by WalterMitty

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 08:27 PM
Abraxa wrote:
- Poor recovery from embarass Kvestion. You act just
- as you tried to represent Italians. Read back your
- messages with a little of honesty if you can.

Read back yours, man. And understand why we have come to insult each other like kids instead of discussing calmly as adults. I don't see anything offending in my first messages, and I would have been glad to exchange views. After all, I never said my opinion was the word of God... and I can perfectly hear what people have to say, provided they say it, not shout it or spit it.

Calling me an a$$hole, a monkey or a moron wasn't the greatest way of making your point, which you finally did with time, in between insults.


- YOU starting offensive generalizations and not
- distinguishing between the opportunism of a
- dictatorship - something I never denied - and the
- respect due to the simple soldiers.


If YOU had made this kind of statement instead of telling the monkey to care about his peanuts, we wouldn't be there. You do have a point here, I'm not denying it.


- I still continue
- to think that our soldiers had courage to fight in
- Russia with paper shoes (yes!) or to fight Spitfire
- in Cr42, with open cockpit an no radio, on the
- English Channel.

Agreed. But the greek and albanian experiences were unworthy of a modern army ; bravery was on the other side.


- Go on to call me Mario, if you enjoy, it just
- reveals your racist hypocrisy.

Oh please. First, if it helps, my father is of italian origin (yes he is !), and his uncle's name is Mario. The guy lives in Milano, and no I don't hate him, or my father.

The pathetic a$$hole monkey was just teasing you, as you were going out of control in a most childish way.


- I will show more respect and more civil tones when
- you'll stop to throw stones and childly hide your
- hands.

That's called debating. I thow stones, you make your point, I make mine, then someone turns out to be right. I never said it was me. But I'm not willing to hear insults, even IF I do generalize or assimilate Mussolini to his people.


- Now make me a last favour at least. Leave me alone
- and let's stop this puppet show.
-


Works for me.


Abraxa wrote:
- Poor recovery from embarass Kvestion. You act just
- as you tried to represent Italians. Read back your
- messages with a little of honesty if you can. It was
- YOU starting offensive generalizations and not
- distinguishing between the opportunism of a
- dictatorship - something I never denied - and the
- respect due to the simple soldiers. I still continue
- to think that our soldiers had courage to fight in
- Russia with paper shoes (yes!) or to fight Spitfire
- in Cr42, with open cockpit an no radio, on the
- English Channel. I don't build any rethoric on it,
- as I'm not so fool to think they were the only one
- to show bravery. I simply don't allow arrogant and
- generalizing insulting.
- Go on to call me Mario, if you enjoy, it just
- reveals your racist hypocrisy.
- I will show more respect and more civil tones when
- you'll stop to throw stones and childly hide your
- hands.
- Now make me a last favour at least. Leave me alone
- and let's stop this puppet show.
-
- <FONT COLOR="yellow">BBB_ABRAXA</FONT>
-
- <center>http://ourworld.cs.com/Abra772/mc205_3.jpeg
- </center>
-
- <marquee> <FONT COLOR="red"> Si vis pacem, para
- bellum</FONT></marquee>
-

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 08:32 PM
Opinions are like a$$holes, everybody has one - here's mine

Italy did poor for the same reasons France, US, UK, Germany, Japan did/didn't
Generals and Strategy
Good Strategic Leaders [and yes, even the Tyrants] with a "Plan" for the longer range future AND Good Generals, did better than those that didn't.
Italy had good soldiers, and for the most part poor - political Generals. Add that to no 5 year plan for where they wanted to be, and no mobilization to that affect and...

"Just got there first with the most men". General N. B. Forrest when asked to what he attributed his stunning success.

The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his.
General George Patton

I don't want yes-men around me. I want everybody to tell the truth even if it costs them their jobs.
Samuel Goldwyn


"It is well that war is so terrible, lest we grow too fond of it."
-- Robert E. Lee


Message Edited on 08/26/0307:33PM by JRJacobs

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 08:35 PM
WalterMitty wrote:

--
- You ignored the part about politics.
- You are full of it.What is it?Leftist
- fruitcake/Islamist propaganda B.S.
-
-
- And NO your type will NOT have any jurisdiction
- concerning the actions of the U.S. soldiers.Why?
- Because we don't trust you either.The growing up
- process?Ha don't make me laugh,I'd say your type is
- getting senile.France can't even acknowledge that
- Hamas is a terrorist organization.


We better stand off the US soldiers. Thet seem to have a "license to kill". Winners write History, it doesn't matter how the victory comes, if it is conveniently justified and disguised.

We better stand off the US soldiers, or we should be tortured and killed in the name of democracy and human rights. No matter if it sounds to hypocresy: they like to call themselves the Free World. Of course, freedom is money and power, the one who gets it, he's free.

Of course, this is leftist and islamic propaganda. In fact, I'm not leftist at all, nor islamic. But, I'm suspicious, so any US soldier can kill me for free and he'll never be judged.

It's US who judges us all.

By the way, Hamas is a terrorist organization. ETA, too. They've killed around 1000 policemen and civilians since 1970. Their armed claim for independence is unjustified, since they can search for it by a democratic way: they have an ample authonomy, their own laws, their own police, their own parlament and institutions, even their own official language. But they don't want to negotiate, they just want to chantage all of us with a gun in a hand.

But the US media doesn't adknowledge them as a terrorist organization. You know, the victims are not US citizens.

And they write History.

- Dux Corvan -

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XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 09:21 PM
Kvestion, I quote just some of your first statements among the others

kvestion wrote:


- Bad commanding ? Poor troop moral ? It's hard to
- say. Once thing's for sure : Italy was unbeatable in
- the field of showing off, and threatening the world
- to revive the roman conquers. When it came to actual
- war, they didn't enjoy fighting as much as their
- roman ancestors did, and became masters in the art
- of switching sides (they were convinced fascists
- while Germany was winning the war, then they joined
- the allied side when the Allies took over, then they
- became fascists again when Hitler put Mussolini back
- in the saddle, then... they killed Mussolini and
- finished the war on the allied side !

DOn't you think the may be interpreted as generically offensive for ALL the Italians and not only for its undoubdtely disgusting leadership?
If your words weren't offensive in their intention I'm happy to hear it, and the whole issue ends here, but you should admit one could read them that way. Anyway, no grudge indeed. And I don't have the lesser interest to see any glory in the wars that Mussolini promoted.
I'm back from France just from few days, I love your country and the people there, been there several times and the last thing I want is to have issues with a French right now. I woud have reacted the same way for every other country, if insulted.
I'm the first one to joke on Italy and on our vices, ask anyone who knows me just a little in the lobby, and I'm the first to recognize our fault and mistakes, so any civil discussion on my country as critic as it can be is welcome from me if proposed with some respect.
Anyway, I'm really sorry when this kind of discussion degenerate, and I'm sorry if my words became harsh too soon.
Any further exchange of opinions will be always welcome by my side, you can be sure of it.

Cheers

<FONT COLOR="yellow">BBB_ABRAXA</FONT>

<center>http://ourworld.cs.com/Abra772/mc205_3.jpeg </center>

<marquee> <FONT COLOR="red"> Si vis pacem, para bellum</FONT></marquee>


Message Edited on 08/26/0310:23PM by Abraxa

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 09:23 PM
Politics. That's a BIG nono.

G'nite.

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