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View Full Version : The swiss system is broken



ZeroZeroTwoZero
07-16-2014, 07:59 PM
Break points make absolutely no sense. There should be no reason for me to beat a guy, then lose to the first place winner but then have the person I beat get 2nd place. Points should be awarded based on a more logical system. I would even settle for 2nd place being the person who loses to first at the end regardless of what else is happening in the rest of the tournament, sure its luck of the draw for matchups but its better then what we have now.

Tachikaze316
07-17-2014, 04:20 AM
Unfortunately, with that there'd be even less reason for people who lost their first round to stick around for the rest of the tournament...Which I think is the problem anyway, since break points are based on your opponents' scores and someone that quits after the first round auto-loses the next 2 games.

While it's kind of annoying how luck based it is...I'm not sure this would be the best solution. I heard someone mention making rewards better for taking part so that people actually have a reason to stick around (A couple of thousand gold for everyone that stays for all 3 rounds? Or maybe a wildcard?) so you're not as likely to get screwed over by people leaving after round one. Still kind of luck based, but if it stops people leaving as often, you're less likely to get screwed.

banduan
07-17-2014, 04:51 PM
there's a very simple solution. Stop making it Swiss and make it single elim or, for value, double elim.

edit: another thing: give 3-4th place prizes.

twardy_
07-17-2014, 04:58 PM
Win Win Lose - 2nd place and 2nd prize
Lose Win WIN - chance to get something near 0
Win Lose Win - again you get nothing

but in every case you got 2 Wins...

not the best system out there :(

Tachikaze316
07-18-2014, 11:46 PM
And sometimes the win lose win person gets second place because their opponents did well in their other games/the win win lose person's first opponent ragequit.

Mushidoz
07-19-2014, 01:28 AM
The only problem with swiss tourney is when someone is too childish to stick around till the end of the tournament.

Otherwise, I think the current system is extremely fair and logical.

This is how it works:

- 1st position is given to the person who ended up with 3 wins (can someone contest that one?)

- Random price is given to one of the remaining (?) players at the end of the swiss tourney (I think if you leave you don't get a chance at the participation price)

- 2nd place is given to the person who has the most battle points out of the players who have 2 wins / and then who has the most break points in case of a draw (Breakpoints are the sum of the battlepoints of those you fought against)

The player who ended up against the top 1 is the person who ended up with 2 consecutive victories on the 3rd round. But that does not mean the 2 victories he got were against the 2 strongest opponents of that tournament.

Here's a scenario to help better understand the possibilities:

Score upon entering 3rd round:

Terminator 2W / 0L (will be first place)
ThePredator 2W / 0L
JohnRambo 1W / 0L
ilovenecropolis 0W / 2L

If JohnRambo lost on the first round against Terminator (future 1st place) and then proceeded to win two games in a row against the two players that ThePredator also won against, then both JohnRambo and ThePredator will have the same amount of points (there will be two players in second position) because they would have won against the same 2 players and lost against the top 1. But this very rarely happens I believe IF it can happen.

However, if the opponents that JohnRambo fought against are different than the ones ThePredator fought, and that Rambo's opponents won against opponents that Predator won against, then they will have more battle points of their own, which will result in Rambo's break points to be higher than Predator's, which will give him second place.

In theory and practice, the system will give the second position to the player who won against the players who were the best / luckiest in fights.. but this all become very screwed up when that loser "ilovenecropolis" quit the tournament on turn 1 (screw you, necro picker). That player will have very low battlepoints of his own, since he will automatically lose all 3 fights in the tournament. If Predator won his first round against ilovenecropolis, then he automatically will have a low break point score, since necro's battlepoints will affect his break points. Since Rambo would NOT have fought against necro (who has the lowest battlepoint score of all), then his break point is likely to be higher than Predator.

Hope I could bring some light on this somewhat complicated math situation...

PS: Because Terminator would give a lot of break points to those he fought against, I don't think it is even possible that Rambo could end up in 2nd position if he lost against Predator in round 2, because Predator would gain both Rambo's and Terminator's battlepoint worth of break point., and those would be the 2 highest in the tourny.

AlfirielShi1
07-20-2014, 12:46 PM
the problem is we have no standard swiss...

makling the whole system broken by default for new players... giving them no reason to stay around after the loss at all.

ZeroZeroTwoZero
07-20-2014, 04:23 PM
Mushidoz, thank you for the detailed response, I am fully aware of how and why the system works the way that it does, but my point is that its a very bad system. Luck dictates who gets the 2nd place prize which is not that bad when you did not face the other opponent. But when you beat the 2nd place person its incredibly frustrating. At least give 3rd a guaranteed prize.

Arrigoth
07-24-2014, 04:31 PM
the problem is we have no standard swiss...

makling the whole system broken by default for new players... giving them no reason to stay around after the loss at all.

Monday and Friday are Standard Swiss.

Acanos_Riorim
07-26-2014, 11:32 AM
I think the main problem is not the leavers, but the fact that someone who left don't get ANY points more. If a leaver get 1 points as if he had played and lost then we cannot be behind someone we have beaten.

Leisses
08-04-2014, 09:32 PM
The only problem with swiss system is about the leavers. make a lost = no points at all and we will have it solved.

defunkt99
08-04-2014, 09:45 PM
There is no real problem with the swiss system. It may cause here and there an inconvenience but in the ende you benefit as often from it as you have a disadvantage. Sadly we dont see so much "i wasn't in the final but got the second prize, scandal!!!" threads. Think about how many times this happened to you before you open your next thread how mean the world is to you just because you didn't get your second prize this time.

Here a healthy attituide for swiss (i give it to you 4 free):

As long as i don't win 3 times i own nothing but can have luck :D!

npavcec
08-04-2014, 11:29 PM
I think the main problem is not the leavers, but the fact that someone who left don't get ANY points more. If a leaver get 1 points as if he had played and lost then we cannot be behind someone we have beaten.

Are you sure that they don't get point per round, even thou they left? I think they do.

Leisses
08-08-2014, 06:29 PM
Are you sure that they don't get point per round, even thou they left? I think they do.
They don't. And that's the reason someone who were going to be able to get the second place prize (even if that guy get 3 losses) won't anymore. And besides defunkt99 thinks it's just people with bad attitude the system has this flaw.

Strandly
08-11-2014, 09:11 AM
There is no real problem with the swiss system. It may cause here and there an inconvenience but in the ende you benefit as often from it as you have a disadvantage. Sadly we dont see so much "i wasn't in the final but got the second prize, scandal!!!" threads. Think about how many times this happened to you before you open your next thread how mean the world is to you just because you didn't get your second prize this time.

This is exactly right. In fact it happens all the time, even in MTG. As soon as people hit 2 losses in a bigger event they drop, which can screw the 2 people who beat him/her 6 rounds later.

Nothing would stop this short of a reward for everyone in the tournament and even then you'd still probably have people dropping.


Lastly, you can't give out points for beating people who dropped because you have no idea who they would have been paired against.

Xyx0rz
09-04-2014, 04:41 PM
I'm not a quitter by nature and I have yet to quit a Swiss, but after playing a bunch of tournaments (love the BS2 format!) I'm starting to have doubts.

If I lose round 1, what's my incentive to keep playing?

Can I still "finish in the money"? Is that even possible?

Should I stick around for the 1-in-8 shot at a BS2 pack? Or is that a 1-in-6 shot? Can you come in 1st or 2nd and get the bonus pack?

Anyway, even if it's a 1-in-6 shot, that's an average of 2500 gold worth of BS2. But BS2 only has a few good rares and I can easily get them for wildcards, so I'd rather just have the gold and maybe buy a GB pack. So 1/6 of not much is actually very little. According to Replay Manager it takes me roughly half an hour to grind together 2500 gold. Gold that I can spend on GB instead of BS2.

But I'm earning gold for the Swiss games too, right? There's no difference between a quick game or fighting for 3rd-7th place in a Swiss, so in reality only the time spent waiting in the lobby is wasted. And that's usually not that long.

Unless... suppose I lose round 1, but for some reason I decide to stick around. I wait for the other games to finish, only to discover that my round 2 opponent quit and now I get a bye. This bye is worth exactly 1 break point. I don't know if it was even possible to make 2nd place after a round 1 loss to begin with, but now that chance is surely zero. And I get nothing for that round, not even gold! But it still costs me 15 minutes, so now quitting looks even better! But if I quit, the guy that beat me in round 1 better win the whole thing or he gets nothing too (since I only gave him 6 break points).

And the funny thing is that other than winning round 1, there is nothing you could have done to avoid getting that bye. If you lose and someone else quits, you have a 1-in-3 chance of being the unlucky player paired against that person. So, in addition to losing, you are also forced to play a sort of Russian Roulette. The system randomly screws over one player, right?

So it's a cascade of feel-bad. Because one player quit after round 1, another player quit after round 2 and a third player missed 2nd place on break points.

Possible solutions:Make the bye worth 7 break points (as if the quitter had won his 3rd round).
Stop using break points like this. For the record, MtG uses "opponent match win percentage" as the primary tiebreaker, which ignores byes.
Give 3rd and 4th place a prize. Something small; 2000 gold, Gold Boost, XP Boost... Anyone who goes 2-1 should at least get something out of it.

S9TF1
09-04-2014, 06:43 PM
4. Scratch the break point system altogether and give awards based on number of wins/losses.

3/0 First prize, assigned to one player
2/1 Second prize, for three players
1/2 Consolation prize, given at random among three players
0/3 & quitters Nothing, duh.

npavcec
09-04-2014, 11:20 PM
4. Scratch the break point system altogether and give awards based on number of wins/losses.

3/0 First prize, assigned to one player
2/1 Second prize, for two players
1/2 Consolation prize, given at random among five players
0/3 & quitters Nothing, duh.

This is actually a very GOOD idea!

memetichazard
09-06-2014, 05:42 AM
4. Scratch the break point system altogether and give awards based on number of wins/losses.

3/0 First prize, assigned to one player
2/1 Second prize, for two players
1/2 Consolation prize, given at random among five players
0/3 & quitters Nothing, duh.

Wouldn't there be 3 2/1s and 3 1/2s? How do you determine which two of the three get 'second prize'?

S9TF1
09-06-2014, 03:17 PM
Wouldn't there be 3 2/1s and 3 1/2s? How do you determine which two of the three get 'second prize'?

Woops, you are right. There are actually three players with 2/1 and other three with 1/2. My bad.

Still, I think that the current system is inherently flawed when it comes to rewards. Among the 2/1s, only one player out of three gets the second prize. The others can only be disappointed by an unfair randomness.

This, IMHO, is bad. 2/1 is no easy feat in a Swiss. Skill should be always rewarded.

Paul.Atreides.
09-19-2014, 08:53 AM
Up! I create thread with other problem in swiss - lose after disconnect...
http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/920886-Petition!-quot-Reconnection-quot-function-in-the-Swiss