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View Full Version : Who or what was "Blue Max"



Metallicaner
05-30-2004, 04:14 PM
Figured out it had something to do with WW1 aviation...

So what is it, or WHO is it? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Metallicaner
05-30-2004, 04:14 PM
Figured out it had something to do with WW1 aviation...

So what is it, or WHO is it? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

ELEM
05-30-2004, 04:17 PM
It was a medal. It's real name was 'Pour le Merite'

http://www.speedace.info/medal.htm

I wouldn't join any club that would have ME as member!

http://img35.photobucket.com/albums/v107/Elem_Klimov/I-16_desktop.jpg

LEXX_Luthor
05-30-2004, 04:33 PM
I saw the movie once, long ago, hope to see it again...

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00008AOTN/103-0202619-8568658?v=glance

__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack


"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

purzel08
05-30-2004, 06:09 PM
A flight simulation on the commodore64. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I used to play it very often.

greetings...

heywooood
05-30-2004, 06:26 PM
The medal was awarded in Germany for 20 confirmed aerial victories.

The movie stars George Peppard and Ursula Andress or Un-dress... It is a decent film with some Tiger Moths made to look like Phalz's and SE5's with a couple of better replicas mixed in. A WWI love triangle in typical Hollywood fashion with a little something 'bout flying thrown in.

GeniusGoneWrong
05-30-2004, 06:32 PM
Blue Max was an ace in WW1 who flew for the Germans and just happened to be a Smurf... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

ONLINE NAME: Rezmann

What goes up, always comes down........ IN FLAMES (Usually me!)

Huxley_S
05-30-2004, 06:36 PM
George Peppard?

http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/69giap/fileadmin/Image_Archive/badges/69giap_badge_huxli.jpg (http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/69giap)

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heywooood
05-30-2004, 06:41 PM
the film was made in 1969? or '68.. George Peppard ended up a cheezy TV actor most remembered for his 'work' in The -A- Team with Mr.T... another American Icon.

"I pity the fool who don't eat my MR.T cereal"

Chuck_Older
05-30-2004, 06:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Huxley_S:
George Peppard?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif Yes, as Bruno Stachel.


The Blue Max is available on DVD, I am holding it in my hands right now http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif In widescreen.


I haven't followed the link provided, so this is probably very redundant, but Imperial Austria was once very impressed by French nobility, lineage, and awards. If I recall correctly, Le Pour le Merite was an Austrian award, not German. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

*****************************
The hillsides ring with, "Free the People",
Or can I hear the echoes from the days of '39?
~ Clash

BlitzPig_DDT
05-30-2004, 06:50 PM
Wasn't Peppard "Hannibal" (from the A-Team)?

Die (or was it Der or Das? Not sure if it was referred to as feminine, masculine or neuter - anyway....) Blauer Max was, as mentioned, the Pour Le Merit. The Award for Merit.

It was awarded by the Kaiser. Few people ever got it more than once (think a few did - forget now) and grunts tended to not get it either. It wasn't just for pilots though.

IIRC (and I probably shouldn't say since I'm rusty here - feel free to correct, bile not necessary. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) Kasier Friedrich started it in the 1800s, when French was in vogue in the German court (hence the french name).

People who were awarded it were expected to wear it at all times while in uniform, so those that survive are always in really bad shape.

It got the nick name from one of the earliest, and most popular (among his fellows) pilots to be awarded it. Max Immelman. Even Manfred von Rochthofen was a big time fan of Immelman. Oh, and because it was "blue", obviously. lol

There is a civilian version of this award, and it is still awarded to this very day. It's not nearly as cool as the military version, which is no longer awarded, but, still...... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://operationcarepackage.org/ddtsig.gif

LEXX_Luthor
05-30-2004, 06:58 PM
Who was that guy who played in Streetcar Named Desire? He always made a good German soldier in the old movies, really looked and sounded the part, forgot his name though. They should have got him to play the Blue Max dude.

I don't at all remember the movie, but from reading it sounds interesting, lower class "peasant" competes against not just the enemy but also the high class German social elite who form the flying classes, and getting the Max is a way to do that. mmm

__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack


"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Taylortony
05-30-2004, 07:01 PM
Yes it was the highest military award in the German Airforce during the World WAR Part one, not the follow on sequal and also a poor bottle of white wine....... or was that a blue nun? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Menthol_moose
05-30-2004, 07:10 PM
Didnt Georing get it too ?
but it was usually hidden behind other medals ?

PraetorHonoris
05-30-2004, 07:13 PM
Yes, G√¬∂ring had a Pour-le-Merit.

But it was not an Air Force medal only. It was given to everybody, who had proven extraordinary bravery. It was the highest German military award.

http://www.rkwetterau.de/assets/images/verdun_franz_helfen.jpg
Humanity

BlitzPig_DDT
05-30-2004, 07:19 PM
Talor, I could swear there were a few that were higher than the PLM. I was surprised to find it, which is why I remember it, but, that was when I was messing with FS-WWI, now I can't remember those awards or where I found them. lol

But, in the process of looking I see I was wrong about when the PLM was established, it was actually 1667, by Friederich I.

http://operationcarepackage.org/ddtsig.gif

Chuck_Older
05-30-2004, 07:22 PM
There was a special award made for Manfred von Richtofen, and it was awarded to him after he got the Blue Max. As I recall it was the Red Eagle Order.

*****************************
The hillsides ring with, "Free the People",
Or can I hear the echoes from the days of '39?
~ Clash

wayno7777
05-30-2004, 07:29 PM
OT, Chuck, are you the Chuck Older # 68 of Flying tiger fame? Or just a nickname?
I thought The Blue Max was a decent movie. If I remember correctly, it was also a very good funny car. (a Mustang I think)

World War Two Weekend June 4-6, 2004 Reading, PA
Over 70 planes including a P-38 (hopin' for GG)
http://server5.uploadit.org/files/wayno77-topcover2.JPG
Gen. Carl Spaatz: "I'd rather have an airplane that goes like hell and has a few things wrong with it than one that won't go like hell and has a few things wrong with it."
Any landing you can walk away from is a good one!

Chuck_Older
05-30-2004, 07:32 PM
Nope, I'm not really Charles Older http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Just a fan of his work, you might say.

*****************************
The hillsides ring with, "Free the People",
Or can I hear the echoes from the days of '39?
~ Clash

wayno7777
05-30-2004, 07:33 PM
Just wondering, I enjoy the wit in your posts anyway!

World War Two Weekend June 4-6, 2004 Reading, PA
Over 70 planes including a P-38 (hopin' for GG)
http://server5.uploadit.org/files/wayno77-topcover2.JPG
Gen. Carl Spaatz: "I'd rather have an airplane that goes like hell and has a few things wrong with it than one that won't go like hell and has a few things wrong with it."
Any landing you can walk away from is a good one!

PF_Coastie
05-30-2004, 07:51 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by wayno7777:

World War Two Weekend June 4-6, 2004 Reading, PA
Over 70 planes including a P-38 (hopin' for GG)

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


You mean this GG?

http://home.earthlink.net/~bmcoastie/images/P38E.jpg

PF_Coastie

Coasties Place (http://www.angelfire.com/ultra/coastie0/)

CATALYST 4.2 OGL (http://home.earthlink.net/~bmcoastie/atioglxx.zip)

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Click here to find out more about FIGHTER SWEEPS 2 (http://663blacktigers.net/FS2index.html)


OFFICIAL ATI BETA TESTER

BlitzPig_DDT
05-30-2004, 07:59 PM
The earliest Rote Adler Orden 3rd class that I could find issued was in 1902. I thought that was around prior to MvR, just wanted to check for myself.

Apparently the Crown as an addendum to the Order was first issued in 1892 as well.

http://operationcarepackage.org/ddtsig.gif

wayno7777
05-30-2004, 08:06 PM
Yes sir, That's the one. After seeing and reading all about her I'd love to see her up close!!!

World War Two Weekend June 4-6, 2004 Reading, PA
Over 70 planes including a P-38 (hopin' for GG)
http://server5.uploadit.org/files/wayno77-topcover2.JPG
Gen. Carl Spaatz: "I'd rather have an airplane that goes like hell and has a few things wrong with it than one that won't go like hell and has a few things wrong with it."
Any landing you can walk away from is a good one!

Chuck_Older
05-30-2004, 08:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BlitzPig_DDT:
The earliest Rote Adler Orden 3rd class that I could find issued was in 1902. I thought that was around prior to MvR, just wanted to check for myself.

Apparently the Crown as an addendum to the Order was first issued in 1892 as well.

http://operationcarepackage.org/ddtsig.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Perhaps they simply changed the physical appearance of the decoration for Richtofen? Or re-instated it's use just for him? I remember there being a unique quality to his ROE

*****************************
The hillsides ring with, "Free the People",
Or can I hear the echoes from the days of '39?
~ Clash

J30Vader
05-30-2004, 09:44 PM
There was also no posthumus award of the medal.


A BREF HISTORY OF THE POUR LE MERITE ( THE BLUE MAX).
In the small German state of Brandenburg, the Ordre de la Generosite ( Order of Generosity, French was the official language of the Prussian court at the time) was established by Friedrich Wilhem I, the electotal prince, on May 12, 1667.
On June 6,1740, The Ordre de la Generosite was renamed the Pour Le Merite ( For Merit) by Friedrich II, who was also known as Friedrich the Great. The new order was to serve as a reward to loyal subjects for meritorious service in the pending war over the territories of Silesia.
It is with the Great War (World War I) that the Pour Le Merite gained it`s fame. The creation of aerial combat brought forth a new breed of warrior that seemed glamorous and daring.Their exploits were watched by thousands of soldiers down below in the trenches. In order for a pilot to be considered for the Pour Le Merite, he would have to obtain a certain amount of aerial victories.
The first pilot to receive the award had to have 8 aerial victories. On January 12,1916 Max Immelmann was the first to receive the Pour Le Merite. After that it became unofficialy known as THE BLUE MAX. By January 1917 the requirements had been raised to sixteen victories. The ony pilot to receive his award under these conditions was Manfred Freiherr Von Richthofen ( The Red Baron).
ABOUT THE OAKLEAVES:
The oakleaves were orginally established for the Red Eagle Order as an addition level to the Order. The same was true of the Pour Le Merite on March 10,1813. This special higher level was to be awared for extraordinary achievements. No one in the air service received Oakleaves even though Manfred Von Richthofen was considered for the award. It was to General Ludendorff`s surprise that he did not receive the award.

Athosd
05-30-2004, 10:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
Who was that guy who played in Streetcar Named Desire? He always made a good German soldier in the old movies, really looked and sounded the part, forgot his name though. They should have got him to play the Blue Max dude.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That would probably be Marlon Brando - he played Stanley in Streetcar. Was also a German officer in "The Young Lions".

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Menthol_moose:
Didnt Georing get it too ?.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Allegedly Fat Herman falsified quite a bit of his war record (embellishing the facts etc). Ernst Udet knew the secret and threatened to blab, that's why Goering kept giving him choice spots in the air ministry (despite his near total lack of admin skills).

Salute

Athos

Metallicaner
06-01-2004, 01:25 PM
Rgr.. so the "Blue Max" is the "Pour Le me Rite"

BlitzPig_DDT
06-01-2004, 01:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Athosd:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Menthol_moose:
Didnt Georing get it too ?.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Allegedly Fat Herman falsified quite a bit of his war record (embellishing the facts etc). Ernst Udet knew the secret and threatened to blab, that's why Goering kept giving him choice spots in the air ministry (despite his near total lack of admin skills).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What did he falsify? As I recall, they actually handed Richtofens squadron (Jasta 11? Can't remember now) over to Goering after his (MvR's) death. And I think I did see a pic from around that time of HG with the PLM on his neck.

http://operationcarepackage.org/ddtsig.gif

GerritJ9
06-01-2004, 01:43 PM
The Ordre Pour le Merite was no longer awarded after the end of the Hohenzollern dynasty in 1918. Erwin Rommel was awarded his as a result of his actions against the Italians during the Austro-Hungarian/German Caporetto offensive in 1917. In later years, whenever Rommel was asked by Italians where he had won the medal, he would answer "Longarone".
Its replacement was the Ritterkreuz of WW2 fame (or should one say notoriety?).

BerkshireHunt
06-01-2004, 02:35 PM
Dusting off my copy of 'German Knights of the Air 1914-1918: Holders of the Orden Pour Le Merite' I see a slightly different story. According to the authors, Treadwell and Wood, the exact derivation of the name 'Blue Max' isn't known.
The Pour le Merite was shaped like a Maltese Cross, and was blue. A shorthand way of writing Maltese Cross in German documents was 'MA-X', hence Blue MA-X. (The German military seems to have been fond of abbreviations like this. In WW2 they recorded aircraft which bore a Jabo staffel triangle as 'marked 3X'. The 3X was a way of writing the German word for 'triangle'; 'dreieck').

Another school of thought says it was simply named in honour of Max Immelmann, as others have said.

The first ever recipient was Oberstleutnant Friedrich Wilhelm Marquis de Varenne in June 1740.

In 1750 the French poet and philosopher Voltaire was the first to be awarded the Pour Le Merite mit Brillianten (diamonds)- he lived in Prussia at the time.

In 1810 it became a purely military decoration.
In 1814 during the war against Napoleon, 1662 were awarded- a staggering 1470 to Russians.

When Friedrich Wilhelm III's wife, Queen Louise of Mecklenburg Strelitz died, he decreed that oak leaves were to be added to the Pour Le Merite and by doing so created a higher award in honour of his wife.

The first winner of the Pour le Merite with oak leaves was General Johann David Ludwig von Yorck for his leadership of the Army.

81 Pour Le Merite were awarded during the First World War to aviators- but not a single 'oak leaves'.

On 2 April 1918 von Richthofen was awarded the last of his 26 decorations, the Order of the Red Eagle with Crowns and Swords. He was killed on the 21st of April.

Hitler reinstated the Iron Cross- which had been discontinued after WW1- and created the Ritterkreuz (Knights Cross)- which was a more thoroughly Germanised 'Pour Le Merite'. Its classes, the 'oakleaves', 'swords' and 'diamonds', came directly from the Pour Le Merite.

BlitzPig_DDT
06-01-2004, 02:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BerkshireHunt:
In 1814 during the war against Napoleon, 1662 were awarded- a staggering 1470 to Russians.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That was when Germany and Russia were allies though. So it's not all that terribly surprising.

Might have stayed that way had Wilhelm not fired Bismarck and ended his alliance with Nicholas leading to the most F'd up spate of treaties and alliances across the continent that I have ever heard of. lol

http://operationcarepackage.org/ddtsig.gif

Black Sheep
06-01-2004, 05:02 PM
On a side note, readers searching for a decent air combat movie set in WWI could do a lot worse than pick up a copy of "Aces High" - a Brit flick featuring the exploits of a Brit fighter squadron in Western France. Fairly gritty, has proper WWI aircraft in if I remember correctly.

Good film, if a bit depressing.

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[This message was edited by Moo.Cow on Tue June 01 2004 at 04:14 PM.]

NegativeGee
06-01-2004, 05:25 PM
Yes, I thought Aces High was really good when I saw it, but have not watched it within the last 10 years or so. The flying scenes certainly included Se5a's.

It had Malcolm McDowell as a RFC Squadron leader. It was set during 1917 in "Bloody April" IIRC.

Definatly gritty like Moo.Cow said.

"As weaponry, both were good, but in far different ways from each other. In a nutshell, I describe it this way: if the FW 190 was a sabre, the 109 was a florett, or foil, like that used in the precision art of fencing." - G√ľnther Rall

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Athosd
06-02-2004, 02:42 AM
QUOTE]
From my earlier post:

Allegedly Fat Herman falsified quite a bit of his war record (embellishing the facts etc). Ernst Udet knew the secret and threatened to blab, that's why Goering kept giving him choice spots in the air ministry (despite his near total lack of admin skills).[/QUOTE]
From BlitzPig_DDT's post:

What did he falsify? As I recall, they actually handed Richtofens squadron (Jasta 11? Can't remember now) over to Goering after his (MvR's) death. And I think I did see a pic from around that time of HG with the PLM on his neck.
[/QUOTE]

From Len Deighton's "Fighter" subtitled - The true story of the Battle of Britain: page 28

"Neither did Udet have much to fear from Goring. As elected chairman of the Richtofen Veterans Association, Udet had expelled Goring, the unit's last commmander. Udet accused Goring of falsifying his First World War record and victory claims and said he could prove it. *Milch said that Goring admitted it was true, and was frightened of Udet."

* Feldmarschall Erhard Milch - Head of the Air Ministry (My footnote)

Only one source true - but a well regarded one, and certainly verifiable from others.

Salute

Athos