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View Full Version : Too much destruction will be UNREALISTIC - Don't overdo it UBI



Pest_AWC
07-08-2014, 03:49 PM
After watching this interview:

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2014-07-08-video-rainbow-six-siege-dev-talks-about-other-levels-destruction

I am concerned that the direction of this game is going too far with destruction to the point it is no longer adding realism, but taking it away.

If you watch any real R6 style raids such as that on Osama Bin Laden's compound, the destruction is very limited, and in some cases none at all.

I would hope that we would also have some BANK style maps with very little destruction due to realistically thick walls and floors/ceilings.

Please don't make this a game where the primary focus is destruction, when that should just be one tool in our toolbox of how to attack and defend an objective.

What does everyone else think of this?

xBeanieBoy
07-08-2014, 04:46 PM
I agree.

From the footage that they showed us, that amount of destruction seemed fine for a game of 2 or 3 minutes.

But If they are planning on making any longer game types or if they find that some game types just take longer on average, I think they should definitely tone it down to compensate for the amount of time players are in a match.

HilbillyRokstar
07-08-2014, 05:48 PM
I agree with Beanie. It depends on the map and match length..number of respawns (if any) etc. Again..it all comes down to balance.

Dome500
07-09-2014, 12:23 AM
Yeah, it depends on the map and mode and if they plan on doing bigger maps or longer modes (which I both hope they do) then they should consider that there shouldn't be total destruction. They should also keep in mind what can be destroyed because if a house looses to many supporting walls it will grumble and crash down on you, so keep that in mind to remain a level of realism.
Destructible and not-destructible walls should definitely be a thing, and the amount of destruction should be based on the thickness of the wall and the power of the destruction tool used.

Ghost-117-16
07-09-2014, 03:19 AM
Agreed with OP

Breaching a key barricade is one thing, but blowing up everything that gets in the way isn't "tactical". A CT unit like R6 would be limited by Rules of Engagement. Blindly shooting through walls/floors and blowing them up can easily kill the hostage. Also think about the area in which the firefight is taking place. In a neighborhood, a 5.56 round can easily go through a window and kill some civilian a block down the street.

The DEVs should remember that a key aspect of Tier 1 CT units is their extreme precision of force. This is their trademark, and it requires intelligence, not brute force. Trigger control is key in a CQB situation. And when they do press the trigger, it's not spraying-and-praying... Which brings me back to the point about Single-Fire-Mode, which has to be a MUST for a tactical shooter.

I would support penalties for brute force attacks by the R6 side in matches. Taking revives out of the game (especially for hostages) would also automatically enforce more discipline.

xLOSTxAblomis
07-09-2014, 08:45 AM
Absolutely yes. Right topic to bring up.
Too much destruction actually may hurt gameplay.

It makes the most sense during entry (to make it quick and unexpected), but after that the value diminishes.
This is something that looks cool and fun, but not sure if it will be fun to play in the long run.

Ubi-MoshiMoshi
07-09-2014, 12:05 PM
Destruction is at the heart of the siege gameplay. Leveraging Ubisoft Montreal’s proprietary Realblast engine, players now have the unprecedented ability to destroy environments. Walls can be shattered, opening new lines of fire, and ceiling and floors can be breached, creating new access points. Everything in the environment reacts realistically, dynamically, and uniquely based on the size and caliber of bullets you are using or the amount of explosives you have set.

As you saw in the E3 video, our procedural destruction is a material base system that is realistic and non-scripted. The material you shoot breaks differently based on what size and caliber of bullets you use or the amount of explosives you set. It will never break the same way twice.

Core to the siege gameplay experience, procedural destruction gives the player the ability to modify the level design in real time by creating holes in walls, floors, and windows using weapons or explosives.

In Rainbow Six Siege, destruction is meaningful and mastering it is often the key to victory.

Where-is-R6-HD
07-09-2014, 03:29 PM
The more the better.

Pest_AWC
07-09-2014, 03:44 PM
Thanks for clarification Ubi-Mush.

I appreciate the claims about the damage and penetration being realistic.

However, breaching a floor and having operatives in full gear jump down an entire level without taking damage may take the game away from realism. I do find it hard to believe something as strong as a floor can be breached without killing everyone in the room below.

Also, you can shoot through walls into rooms where the enemy is and use the artificial HIT Indicator to know where the enemy is and take him down. That takes away fro realism and is easy to exploit with a weapon with a large clip and small bullets.

I am concerned that the map designers will cater too much toward making maps with thin walls and over-do all of this "destruction" stuff at the expense of making some realistic prison or bank style maps with less surfaces that can be penetrated. I hope you will pass on this concern and it would be nice if they would reply with their intentions.

Thank you

Dome500
07-09-2014, 04:58 PM
However, breaching a floor and having operatives in full gear jump down an entire level without taking damage may take the game away from realism.

So you tell me you never stood in your own house and jumped down a floor without having problems?
I do that every once in a while and jumping down 1 level is no problem even without special gear.

Pest_AWC
07-09-2014, 06:52 PM
So you tell me you never stood in your own house and jumped down a floor without having problems?
I do that every once in a while and jumping down 1 level is no problem even without special gear.

A soldier cannot jump down 10 feet with 50+ pounds of gear and not hurt himself! It would be one thing if they incorporated some type of climbing motion where they lowered themselves part way down by their arms or something. They need to implement falling damage in this game.

Dirtymurph
07-10-2014, 12:16 AM
I thought the same thing about the breaching of the floor but it's not unreasonable for a person to jump that far without hurting themselves. That jump is easily doable even if a person has 50 pounds of gear. The animation could be done differently though. It wouldn't be as smooth of a jump that's for sure. Also I'd love to see the destructibility toned down a bit. Barricades seemed useless and walls were going down too easily. Just my thoughts.

panda24170
07-10-2014, 04:24 AM
Keep the destruction, just limit how much floor/wall breachers each team can carry. Grenades should have limited power to breach.

Pest_AWC
07-10-2014, 04:32 PM
I thought the same thing about the breaching of the floor but it's not unreasonable for a person to jump that far without hurting themselves. That jump is easily doable even if a person has 50 pounds of gear. The animation could be done differently though. It wouldn't be as smooth of a jump that's for sure. Also I'd love to see the destructibility toned down a bit. Barricades seemed useless and walls were going down too easily. Just my thoughts.

Sure, if they roll, or take time to recover they could do a one story drop. Just can't do it as easily as they portray and immediately start shooting accurately.

Dome500
07-10-2014, 05:11 PM
A soldier cannot jump down 10 feet with 50+ pounds of gear and not hurt himself! It would be one thing if they incorporated some type of climbing motion where they lowered themselves part way down by their arms or something. They need to implement falling damage in this game.

Sorry that's the least of my problems, I will just imagine they swung down.
Also it is definitely possible to jump down 1 level with + 50 pounds of extra weight without hurting yourself if you learned HOW to do it.
It might hurt you in the long term (like over years it will surely leave damage and you might have problems when you get older) but that doesn't matter in a 3 - 4 min game.
I think it's okay the way it is.

Ghost-117-16
07-10-2014, 05:48 PM
What happens to the hostage in the room below, when an explosion strong enough to knock out a big hole in the floor goes off right above their heads? Do all the pieces of the load-bearing floor which have just become shrapnel magically disappear into fairy dust? Or are they actually capable of penetrating the skull of the hostage below rending his/her "health meter" null and void? Is that possibility something we have to intelligently consider during a hostage RESCUE operation? Or are we simply expected to gloss over such details and say "f*** math man, I just like blowing s*** up!!"?

TheCyrcus.TTV
07-11-2014, 02:43 AM
The trailer was just used to show off the destruction, in an actual match there wont be that much of it, especially considering each round is only supposed to last 3 minutes. Aside from that, I completely agree with the OP, and yes, a bank map would be amazing.

xLOSTxAblomis
07-11-2014, 03:40 PM
The key point for me is that

Destruction should be a tactical solution, not just a "why because we can" feature (like it is in battlefield for example)

Dome500
07-11-2014, 05:58 PM
The key point for me is that

Destruction should be a tactical solution, not just a "why because we can" feature (like it is in battlefield for example)

Agreed.

It should open up tactical possibilities but be limited to a(n) realistic/authentic amount so you can't just destory complete walls but only shoot holes in them or blow them up if they are thin/weak enough at those points. Different amounts of destruction based on the wall thickness and material as well as the tools you use (explosive, ammo types, etc) and realistic/authentic in a way that if you destroy too much the ceiling can partially come down (because that is how it is if you destroy to many supporting walls in a house.

Also, do not only restrict destruction to walls.

Stairs, Tables, Lights, etc have to be destroyable as well.
Also, tables should be able to be turned over and used as (weak and destroyable) cover in a firefight.
Stuff like that increases believability and tactical possibilities while keeping the whole thing authentic, realistic, logical and fun (as well as challenging)-

TheCyrcus.TTV
07-12-2014, 02:20 AM
One thing I actually noticed from the gameplay trailer is that the house got very dusty when they started blowing **** up. There's already one reason blowing everything up wouldn't always be the answer.

sarbazevije
07-14-2014, 10:31 AM
Rainbow Six Siege: Other Levels 'Small', with 'More Destruction'http://www.outsidexbox.com/articles/2014-07-07-rainbow-six-siege-other-levels-small-with-more-destruction

As if annihilating an entire house and blowing everything up wasn't Rainbow enough, we're gonna have even more destruction! I'm amazed how much this game reminds me of the old titles. COD and Battlefield fans will absolutely love this!

Dome500
07-15-2014, 12:28 AM
I hope they will have bigger maps as well. I do not mean like big scale flat maps but rather some bigger building complexes based on mode and especially in Coop (Terrorist Hunt) and Singleplayer.

Also, I will be REALLY pissed if all we get as Sp/Coop is some half-a*sed lazy maps and not a real story.
I want a real R6 styled story and missions, I want a good big map terrorist hunt and then multiplayer can also be part of it.
Singleplayer and Coop were always at the Core and Heart of what R6 was about, so I hope they keep that in mind.

No Ghost Recon Future Soldier like story, something better, in delivery/execution and general concept. And big open maps for Singleplayer.
Anti-Terrorism, Hostage-Rescue, it can all be included. I also don't mind 1 or 2 small maps in the Singleplayer, but we need:

- Sometimes Bigger maps with building complex and surroundings
- Planning Phase
- Big R6 Team of a few squats
- International Team
- Team management
- Customization of the Teams, Uniforms, Weapons, etc.
- Being able to switch between different characters during the mission
- Pre-set Commandos and actions for the A.I. (made up during the planning phase)
- K.O. shots (leg, arm, etc.) and intimidation (kill enough of the enemies in a room and 1 might surrender), as well as handcuffing

Stuff like that.

Bakie10
07-15-2014, 04:17 PM
I do like the destruction, but I'm wondering if you can hit things as pipelines in walls too. The wall of a house is not "emty". There is electricity, water pipes and gas pipes.
You can get bigger explosions because of the gas, water leaking out of the wall and in combination with electricity you can get puddles of water that can electrify you.
I'm not sure if this would make the game better, but it would make the game more realistic then the emty walls I saw in the gameplay trailer.

I'm too hoping that there will be bigger buildings.
But you can cross the street as there is a sniper in a house across the street that get shot down in the gameplay trailer. So it's not only the house you can play in.

Dome500
07-15-2014, 05:52 PM
I do like the destruction, but I'm wondering if you can hit things as pipelines in walls too. The wall of a house is not "emty". There is electricity, water pipes and gas pipes.
You can get bigger explosions because of the gas, water leaking out of the wall and in combination with electricity you can get puddles of water that can electrify you.
I'm not sure if this would make the game better, but it would make the game more realistic then the emty walls I saw in the gameplay trailer.

I'm too hoping that there will be bigger buildings.
But you can cross the street as there is a sniper in a house across the street that get shot down in the gameplay trailer. So it's not only the house you can play in.

Yeah I hope that too. I hope we can actually hit light sources and destroy them and change the environment as much as possible.
Also cutting power, etc on specific places would be a cool thing (Night Visions and Thermal Visions need to be available of course).

@The Sniper => I'm still not sure how that works.... can I just go in without Sniper or is the Sniper a must? Is that other side where the Sniper is actually ACCESSIBLE for all or are there restrictions, also, can the Sniper (if he wants) move in the house if he is the last man standing, or does he HAVE to be at the other house on a fixed position? I hope of course we and the Sniper can both move freely.

Bakie10
07-16-2014, 07:40 PM
Yeah I hope that too. I hope we can actually hit light sources and destroy them and change the environment as much as possible.
Also cutting power, etc on specific places would be a cool thing (Night Visions and Thermal Visions need to be available of course).

@The Sniper => I'm still not sure how that works.... can I just go in without Sniper or is the Sniper a must? Is that other side where the Sniper is actually ACCESSIBLE for all or are there restrictions, also, can the Sniper (if he wants) move in the house if he is the last man standing, or does he HAVE to be at the other house on a fixed position? I hope of course we and the Sniper can both move freely.

That would be cool, to cutt of power. But I hope that it's not only making lots of noise with exploding walls en windows, but you can do some kind of stealth approach too.
So you really have to search for your opponents and not only listen to the gunfire en explosions to find out where they are. Of course it's all up to your team how to handle the situation, but still. Imagine a big villa during the night, big garden and a nice swimming pool. :cool:
Than the SWAT team that have to search for the terrorist with the nightvision and thermal visions and some silenced guns. Cutting off the power so the garden lights and security camera's are out. Maybe the terrorist could watch a monitor in side the house were they could watch the security cam videos. I think that would be cool too. :p

As for the sniper, you can see how one person after landing on the roof of the house, went in a different direction then the other four people. So I think you can go where ever you want. But as your goal is to rescue to hostage, the only way to do so is going in the house. And the sniper at one moment in the video get shot, I don't think he get shot by someone within the same house as the hostage. So one went out to kill the sniper.
I do think that the sniper has to go in to the house if the other team mates are dead. That's the only way left for his team to win. So moving freely is a must I think.

UbiDuchess
07-16-2014, 10:50 PM
The key comments in here for me were 1) that this was a trailer to show off destruction - that doesn't necessarily reflect how the gameplay will typically play out; 2) destruction should be seen as a possible tactical solution, not used just because.

I have to say this looks like a blast though. No pun intended. :)

Pest_AWC
07-16-2014, 11:01 PM
The key comments in here for me were 1) that this was a trailer to show off destruction - that doesn't necessarily reflect how the gameplay will typically play out; 2) destruction should be seen as a possible tactical solution, not used just because.

I have to say this looks like a blast though. No pun intended. :)

True, but the video interviews make it sound like destruction will be key and used even more in other maps. So the biggest fear is that the availability of explosives will be unrealistically high and places they can be used will be unrealistically high and over-used without realistic consequences of killing everyone in the other room.

If a game plays out in a way that would not happen in a normal combat situation, then the game fails to be realistic and won't be fun for the fans of classic R6.

UbiDuchess
07-17-2014, 08:09 PM
I hear ya, Pest, I think this is good feedback. Curious about everyone's thoughts after the stream?

Pest_AWC
07-17-2014, 08:59 PM
I hear ya, Pest, I think this is good feedback. Curious about everyone's thoughts after the stream?

Too many threads on the stream already. We need to keep it to one please.

UbiDuchess
07-17-2014, 11:03 PM
I meant specifically whether there were any new thoughts about the destruction mechanic. :)

Pest_AWC
07-17-2014, 11:50 PM
Oh, in that case, yes! I think it is way overdone and used too much. I love the realistic bullet penetration and holes it leaves that you can look through, but blowing up floors and ceilings so often is a bit much. You just don't hear about that kind of stuff in real operations. I hope they really limit how much someone can carry if they have that type of explosive. It should take both gadget slots or something.