PDA

View Full Version : 109 jocks UNITE! Overheat time of late 109s with MW 50



Kurfurst__
03-26-2004, 12:50 PM
Currently all the 109s equipped with MW 50 could not last for 10 mins under WEP. This is incorrect, and needs to be changed for historical accuracy.

Historically, when using MW 50 and maximum boost, these 109s (G-6/AS, G-14, G-10, K-4) were cleared for engine operation at maximum power with MW 50 up to 10 minutes time, as according to their manual.

For years, such limit could not be utilized in the game without immidiate or immidiately threatening engine damage, usually happening after 8 mins using WEP. Soviet fighters, such as La-5 and La-7, are given this 10 min WEP, which is historical. 109s are denied of this advantage, despite being just as historical.

The current ahistorical WEP time needs to be modified.

I am asking you to do test of overheating time.

These should be done by engaging WEP and measuring the time to :

-first 'Overheat' massage.
-first sign of engine damage (reduced RPM/boost, clearly noticable decrease in speed)
-complete engine failure (prop stops)

Please note times. The built-in clock on BF 109 should be a help, with use of time acceleration.
Please note radiator position, Auto, Closed, or Open etc. Decrease in speed can be noticed if flying level for long time, as speed will stabilze.

It would be most usuful if you would note the behaviour of the two temperature gauges, as I believe this may be the root of problem. K-4 is most usuful in this matter, as there are separate temp gauges :

upper gauge is for coolant,
lower gauge is for oil temperature.

I believe the trouble is with rising oil temperature, and modifications of real planes are not carried into the game engine.


Evidence will be then posted to Oleg about effectiveness of MW cooling properties, and Aircraft Manuals in face of in-game results.

We need your help. Unfortunately I am not at home right now, I can`t test it until tomorrow or so.

With professional, through testing and constructive approach, backed up by solid evidence from primary sources, I am sure we can convince Oleg to make the long needed changes to fix this bug.

Kurfurst__
03-26-2004, 12:50 PM
Currently all the 109s equipped with MW 50 could not last for 10 mins under WEP. This is incorrect, and needs to be changed for historical accuracy.

Historically, when using MW 50 and maximum boost, these 109s (G-6/AS, G-14, G-10, K-4) were cleared for engine operation at maximum power with MW 50 up to 10 minutes time, as according to their manual.

For years, such limit could not be utilized in the game without immidiate or immidiately threatening engine damage, usually happening after 8 mins using WEP. Soviet fighters, such as La-5 and La-7, are given this 10 min WEP, which is historical. 109s are denied of this advantage, despite being just as historical.

The current ahistorical WEP time needs to be modified.

I am asking you to do test of overheating time.

These should be done by engaging WEP and measuring the time to :

-first 'Overheat' massage.
-first sign of engine damage (reduced RPM/boost, clearly noticable decrease in speed)
-complete engine failure (prop stops)

Please note times. The built-in clock on BF 109 should be a help, with use of time acceleration.
Please note radiator position, Auto, Closed, or Open etc. Decrease in speed can be noticed if flying level for long time, as speed will stabilze.

It would be most usuful if you would note the behaviour of the two temperature gauges, as I believe this may be the root of problem. K-4 is most usuful in this matter, as there are separate temp gauges :

upper gauge is for coolant,
lower gauge is for oil temperature.

I believe the trouble is with rising oil temperature, and modifications of real planes are not carried into the game engine.


Evidence will be then posted to Oleg about effectiveness of MW cooling properties, and Aircraft Manuals in face of in-game results.

We need your help. Unfortunately I am not at home right now, I can`t test it until tomorrow or so.

With professional, through testing and constructive approach, backed up by solid evidence from primary sources, I am sure we can convince Oleg to make the long needed changes to fix this bug.

clint-ruin
03-26-2004, 01:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kurfurst__:

With professional, through testing and constructive approach, backed up by solid evidence from primary sources, I am sure we can convince Oleg to make the long needed changes to fix this bug.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'll post some results if I get time this weekend - about all this machine is good for with the crap graphics card - but I must say this is one of the most mature requests for info and testing I've yet seen posted to ORR.

Well done Kurfurst.

http://home.iprimus.com.au/djgwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg

faustnik
03-26-2004, 01:07 PM
I'm sure real K4 pilots were just happy to engage MW50 and not have the engine grenade. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif Those type of boost systems sound really nasty on an engine, especially with the state of German industry "quality control" at the time. Of course a/c in FB are modeled to ideal specs so, it can't be considered.

I'll test the boost times in the 190As for number of minutes, but they certainly seem reasonable. Good luck with the DB engine tests. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/mdegnan/_images/FaustSig
www.7Jg77.com (http://www.7jg77.com)
CWoS FB forum. More Cheese, Less Whine. (http://www.acompletewasteofspace.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=25)

Tvrdi
03-26-2004, 01:24 PM
ur right

http://server6.uploadit.org/files/gnomisa-zerome2.jpg

E_Temperament
03-26-2004, 02:14 PM
Bf109G-6/AS, radiator set to Open gave me 5 minutes for the engine overheat message.
Bf109G-6/AS, radiator set to Closed gave me 5 minutes for the engine overheat message .

Kurfurst__
03-26-2004, 04:05 PM
From K-4 flight manual :

http://www.x-plane.org/users/isegrim/109/K-4%20WEP%20time.jpg

"The carried MW material (75 liter) lasts for 26 min flight time using Sondernotleistung. So one can use Sondernotleistung for 2 x 10 min, or in another time configurations; in no case should one fly with Sondernotleistung for more than 10 minutes. More on service details in L. Dv. T. 2109 K-4/Fl.
Between two use of Sondernotleistung one needs to stay at lower engine performance for about 5 minutes."

Sondernotleistung refers to the maximum obtainable power with use of MW. In game, it translates to 110% and WEP(MW50 enabled).

Tvrdi
03-26-2004, 04:53 PM
yes overheating needs tunes....german planes in front of others.....and british...P39 is "cool *****"

http://server6.uploadit.org/files/gnomisa-zerome2.jpg

Kurfurst__
03-26-2004, 04:53 PM
Tested the K-4. The results are weird.

Test conditions : Complex Engine management, full real expect for Cocpit off, Speedbar. 100% fuel.

Crimea map, test run : straight level flight at around 100m, with three radiator settings at WEP + 110%.

With radiators FULLY CLOSED :

* 120 degree oil temperature reached in 1 min 40 sec
* 'Engine Overheat' message at 2 min 29"
* 120 degree coolant temperature reached in 3 min 17 sec
* Speed drop due to engine damage : 7 min 18 sec
* Engine fails : 8 min 45 sec

With radiators FULLY OPEN :

* 120 degree oil temperature reached in 2 min 17 sec
* 120 degree coolant temperature reached in 3 min 18 sec
* 'Engine Overheat' message at 3 min 37 sec
* Speed drop due to engine damage : 8 min 43 sec
* Engine fails : 9 min 42 sec

With radiators AUTO :

* 120 degree oil temperature reached in 2 min 9 sec
* 120 degree coolant temperature reached in 3 min 35 sec
* 'Engine Overheat' message at 3 min 43 sec
* Speed drop due to engine damage : 8 min 30 sec
* Engine fails : about 26 mins !!!!!

The weirdest was without doubt the test with AUTO radiators... after the speed drop occured at 8 and a half min after engaging WEP, the oil/coolant temperatures appeared to be FALL BACK... the engine continoued to run at very low power, speed dropped by about -200 km/h, but the engine did not fail finally until 26 mins (the apprx. time the MW stores last).

In no cases could one run the engine for 10 minutes without suffering damage in the engine. Yet in the manual it`s clearly stated 10 minutes are tolerated.

Another very strange thing is that the coolant temperatures are basically the SAME whatever the radiator settings are. Strange indeed, since the radiator settings, theoretically, would only effect the COOLANT radiators. Yet the time for the coolant to reach 120 degrees celsius was pretty much the same : 3 min 17secs, 3 min 37 secs, 3 min 35 secs.

On the other hand, the radiator settings seem to greatly effect the OIL temperature; at closed, open, and auto settings, the time to reach 120 degrees was as follows :

1 min 40 sec
2 min 17 sec
2 min 9 sec

Alltogether there`s little difference in here either, considering the reading difficulties of the temp gauges.

It is proven that the engine takes damage after 8.5 mins; in real life, 10minutes was allowed, which obviously included some additional safety margin.

In practical means, it means the engine with MW 50 in AEP is STILL incapable of operating at max power for longer than about 7 mins (allowing for safety margin for cooling down). This means the WEP time should be increased by about 50%.

Thoughts ?

[This message was edited by Kurfurst__ on Fri March 26 2004 at 04:33 PM.]

faustnik
03-26-2004, 05:00 PM
I read the manual translation as "try to run it for ten minutes and you're screwed" not "you can run it for ten minutes before anything bad happens."

Does it clearly state that the engine can handle 10 minutes?

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/mdegnan/_images/FaustSig
www.7Jg77.com (http://www.7jg77.com)
CWoS FB forum. More Cheese, Less Whine. (http://www.acompletewasteofspace.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=25)

WUAF_Badsight
03-26-2004, 05:04 PM
wow ty for your efforts

Kurfurst__
03-26-2004, 05:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by faustnik:
I read the manual translation as "try to run it for ten minutes and you're screwed" not "you can run it for ten minutes before anything bad happens."
Does it clearly state that the engine can handle 10 minutes?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes it does. It certainly DOES NOT state anything bad happens at 10mins as you suggest. Are you a native speaker?

"Es kann also 2 x 10 min Sondernotleistung entnommen werden..."

It`s a bit hard to translate this structure to English, however the most accurately I an. Help from native German speakers is most welcomed! :

"One can thus take/use two periods of 10 min Sondernotleistung".
It also notes later: in no case should the 10 min duration exceeded.

It`s quite clear that 10 min is the limit, it takes a fair amount of imagination to read it as "run it for 10min and it fails". Run it for over 10mins nd you are asking for trouble, it says. But 10 min is safe. Why would a manual speak about a limit that already results in failure?!

faustnik
03-26-2004, 05:28 PM
No, I'm not a native German speaker, that's why I'm asking. I'm not "suggesting" anything. As you know, ambiguity in these issues will lead to no good! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/mdegnan/_images/FaustSig
www.7Jg77.com (http://www.7jg77.com)
CWoS FB forum. More Cheese, Less Whine. (http://www.acompletewasteofspace.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=25)

NegativeGee
03-26-2004, 05:47 PM
I was reading this thread and remembered a section in the interview with Franz Stigler posted on the boards this week:

Bottom section, first page:

http://109lair.hobbyvista.com/articles/pilots/stigler/stigler.htm

Problem is, Stigler does not make definate reference to either MW-50 or GM-1 (altitude is mentioned) so its difficult to know if he is refering to one, the other or both with his remarks.

Still, thought it maybe of interest.

"As weaponry, both were good, but in far different ways from each other. In a nutshell, I describe it this way: if the FW 190 was a sabre, the 109 was a florett, or foil, like that used in the precision art of fencing." - Gunther Rall

http://www.invoman.com/images/tali_with_hands.jpg

Look Noobie, we already told you, we don't have the Patch!

BlitzPig_DDT
03-26-2004, 07:43 PM
Faust, how'd you get that outta this - "So one can use Sondernotleistung for 2 x 10 min, or in another time configurations; in no case should one fly with Sondernotleistung for more than 10 minutes." ? Just curious. That to me sounds very much like 10 minutes is certainly permitted and therefore possible.

==================================
The Blitz Pigs - Not a squad, a Movement!

Come and spam on our front porch.

http://www.blitzpigs.com

faustnik
03-26-2004, 10:18 PM
DDT,

I see what you mean. Reading it again, you get two minute runs with full nitrous(or whatever it is) and you will be OK. Plus, I guess, 6 extra minutes to empty the boost tank.

The part that threw me was the "in no case" go over 10 minutes.

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/mdegnan/_images/FaustSig
www.7Jg77.com (http://www.7jg77.com)
CWoS FB forum. More Cheese, Less Whine. (http://www.acompletewasteofspace.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=25)

JG53Hunter
03-27-2004, 12:38 AM
MW50 stands for methanol water 50%
That means its an mixture of 50% of each component and is mainly used for cooling of the engine.
It is injecte into the airflow of the compressor.
German readers can read here:
http://www.dlr.de/dlr/Luftfahrt/dokumente/forschung_fuer_die_luftfahrt_einfach.pdf
(search for mw50)

Kurfurst__
03-27-2004, 10:02 AM
More examples of the cooling properties of MW 50.

DB 605 A and AM engines were the exact same engines. The AM only differed from having MW50 injection equipment added, nothing else.

The following are the amount of heat generated by the engine during operation, that is transferred to the coolant and oil, and cooled down in the cowl oil cooler and underwing radiators. The amount of heat is expressed in kcal.

The effects of MW 50 cooling are very strong, they manage to virtually neglect the extra heat from 500 extra horsepower!

ie., DB 605 A produced 1310 HP at 0m at the 30min Kamfleistung rating, at 2600 revs/min, without MW 50 injection.
The transferred heat during the process was as follows :

Coolant : 340 000 kcal / hour
Oil : 65 000 kcal / hour

Compare to the amount of heat transferred from engine at sea level to oil/coolant on the DB 605AM at 10 min rating with MW 50 injection. This means 1800 HP produced at 2800 revs/min :

Coolant : 345 000 kcal / hour
Oil : 96 000 kcal / hour43

With the help of MW 50 injection, the engine, despite running on higher revolution, producing 37% more power, the actual heat transferred to the coolant is virtually IDENTICAL.

The increase in heat transferred to the oil lubricant is 47% greater.
To compensate for this, Bf 109s that had MW installed usually also had increased oil tank capacity, from 38,6 liter to 50 liter. All K-4s and G-10s featured this, and was also common on G-14s. More volume of oil could of course, took longer time to be overheated.

A new type of oil cooler was also introduced, type Fo 987. It had much larger area than the previous one, increasing the rate the oil was cooled down with the airstream.

http://www.x-plane.org/users/isegrim/bf110_2.jpg
I miss that mushroom shaped cloud, though. Shouldn`t that be present when an A-bomb goes off? Oh, it`s only a 30mm cannon...

03-27-2004, 11:16 AM
Kurfurst__, make sure to also record the engine temperature before beginning the 10 minute sondernotleistung run.

If the engine is already 1 or 2 degrees below maxiumum temperature you will not be able to run 10 minutes at emergency power. Obviously.

Kurfurst__
03-27-2004, 11:26 AM
I did the overheating test from QMB. The plane always spawns w the temp is slightly below 80 celsius on other 109s. In usual flights the temp would stablize at 80 celsius. So in fact I believe I even measured with an engine slightly cooler than usual.

http://www.x-plane.org/users/isegrim/bf110_2.jpg
I miss that mushroom shaped cloud, though. Shouldn`t that be present when an A-bomb goes off? Oh, it`s only a 30mm cannon...

03-27-2004, 11:34 AM
Ahhh.. good idea using the QMB. Same start temperature every time, guaranteed! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Tvrdi
03-28-2004, 08:08 AM
like I said the overheating issue is one of the poorest things in this game...for example...I could fly with Spitfire forever after engine failure with non-stop pressing the "I" (for engine on/off) button

http://server6.uploadit.org/files/gnomisa-zerome2.jpg

KaRaYa-X
03-28-2004, 08:41 AM
As a native speaker I'll translate the excerpt again (although Kurfurst has done a pretty good job)

"The MW-boost [you can't translate Stoff into material in this case] (75litres) lasts for 25 minutes of flight with Emergency Power/Sondernotleistung. One can therefore make use of 2x10min Emergency Power or some other time configuration. In no case fly for more than 10min [at a time]
In between two useages [don't know if you can say that in english] of Emergency Power there need to be 5 minutes of flight time at lower engine power."

Hope this will help you!

Kurfurst__
03-28-2004, 12:44 PM
Bump.

Please guys contribute with test with G-14, G-6/AS G-10 or K-4. Be sure conditions are the same.

http://www.x-plane.org/users/isegrim/bf110_2.jpg
I miss that mushroom shaped cloud, though. Shouldn`t that be present when an A-bomb goes off? Oh, it`s only a 30mm cannon...

Kurfurst__
03-29-2004, 12:04 PM
Yet another bump. I would like Oleg comment on this bug, at least once. I want to know his position on this.

http://www.x-plane.org/users/isegrim/bf110_2.jpg
I miss that mushroom shaped cloud, though. Shouldn`t that be present when an A-bomb goes off? Oh, it`s only a 30mm cannon...

Stalker58
03-30-2004, 05:45 AM
Also don't forget that main adversary of lete Me109, La 5F&FN had huge problems with overheating, they were able to use max. power (1850hp) only for max. 2 mins with risk of fatal engine failure if exceeded!
Only La7s had solved this problem with 10mins of max. power available.

Altitude, speed, manoeuvre and.... CRASH!

Skalgrim
03-30-2004, 06:11 AM
other proplem is in fb, you can only get the topspeed with radiator close,

but real speed test, they have get the topspeed with half open radiator

k4 must get topspeed sealevel with half open radiator, then would she not so fast overheat, but fb must she use close radiator

schwarze man from experten forum, say too 10min could db605 mw50 use, he restored db605 engine and oleg means too he experte for engine

[This message was edited by Skalgrim on Tue March 30 2004 at 05:31 AM.]

Kurfurst__
03-30-2004, 11:47 AM
I have received note from Oleg via email. To qoute a part:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>"Did you have the engine damaged right after 8 or 10 min in automode of radiator or just get a message? Please confirm. Then send a track." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I will defietely do that, and I ask you to post tracks, too. It wouldn`t hurt if it would be similiar conditions.

There is a good chance this annoying bug to be finally fixed now, but that needs your active help. You can directly send it to Oleg, too IMHO. (il2beta@1c.ru)

It`s practical if you fly straight at max speed, so that you would immidiately notice engine damage from the sudden speed drop phenomenon happening around at 8 min. Please note exact time (use stopper or cocpit clock) of engine damage taking place, so Oleg`s job would be easier.

Some formalized subject of the mail would be usuful, ie. "Track file to show late 109 overheat bug" or something like that.

If you have time, test as many models as possible with tracks : 109 G-6/AS, G-14, G-10, K-4. These 109s have methanol injection.


Fixing this bug depends on wheter we can support Oleg work with usable proofs of the bug.

http://www.x-plane.org/users/isegrim/bf110_2.jpg
I miss that mushroom shaped cloud, though. Shouldn`t that be present when an A-bomb goes off? Oh, it`s only a 30mm cannon...

[This message was edited by crazyivan1970 on Mon April 05 2004 at 06:09 AM.]

butch2k
03-30-2004, 12:18 PM
btw Isegrim only the DB605D equipped aircraft had the enlarged oil tank http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif it's one of the best way to recognise a G-14/AS from a G-10.

Kurfurst__
03-30-2004, 12:40 PM
Nobody is perfect! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Though I can imagine that a number of such chaos-spawn bastard-machines of such combination were built, if not else than the early G-10 batch with AS motors (or was it just G-10s w. 110 type cowlings again?).

http://www.x-plane.org/users/isegrim/bf110_2.jpg
I miss that mushroom shaped cloud, though. Shouldn`t that be present when an A-bomb goes off? Oh, it`s only a 30mm cannon...

butch2k
03-30-2004, 01:00 PM
Not that much except for about 50 DB605AS equipped G-10s (not the Erla cowling equipped ones http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

Kurfurst__
04-05-2004, 05:25 AM
Come and Rejoice, my Breathren !

The Sun God had spoken! I heard his voice in my head today, in his infinite wisdom he choose to bring the Light in me head : http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif


http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif
...Anyway we'll make like in manual for K-4...
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif


Butch: I was curious and looked it up, in GLC chart you posted a while ago (G-14/ASM, G-14/U4, K-4), all fighters show the oil weight at 46kg, ie. large oil tank. Of course paper and actual a/c could be different, but indeed theres sign of G-14s also being/intended to be produced with the large oil tank and oil cooler. Not sure about the pump though, but it seems likely.

http://www.x-plane.org/users/isegrim/bf110_2.jpg

Our Messer which art in Heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Thy moment come. Thy will be done in Earth, as it is in Heaven.
Give us this day our daily Abschuss.
And forgive us our Errors, as We forgive Your Flaws against us.
And lead us not into Temptation to dogfight, but deliver us from Those Below :
For thine are The Altitude, and The Climbrate, and the MK 108, forever and ever.
Amen.

butch2k
04-05-2004, 05:49 AM
Nope you could easily see that G-14/AS had the oil filling point mounted in low position compared to the G-10 and K-4 for which it was in a higher position. Just check a few pictures and it will be clear.
The GLC charts are to be taken with a large pinch of salt... they do not reflect reality in most cases and i rarely use them. Even the speed graph of the GLC are dubvious at best, some showing what looks like a two speed supercharger (curves ala Fw 190) rather than one with hydraulic coupling.
I use them for comparison purposes, but in the details they are not that good.

crazyivan1970
04-05-2004, 07:10 AM
Kurfurst, please check PT

V!
Regards,

http://blitzpigs.com/forum/images/smiles/smokin.gif

VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/coop-ivan.jpg

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/vfc/home.htm

Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

WUAF_Boxer
04-05-2004, 02:27 PM
I hope overheating is adressed for all planes. Because as it is now, the 190's are much tougher to keep cool than the 109's. And the spits also need to be looked at, wich as I understand is being done. I just want all the planes to be realisticaly equal relative to themselves.