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XyZspineZyX
11-23-2003, 12:28 PM
Pls. take a look on Ju-87 damage modell. A couple of days before, it took 327 hits befor the Ju-87 was smoking, not burning.

http://www.vow-hq.com ( <A HREF=)/index.php?page=mission&action/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif pen&id=155" target=_blank>http://www.vow-hq.com/index.php?page=mission&action/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif pen&id=155</a>

This is only one example, you always need 300+ shkas hits to damage a Ju-87.

Is the shkas to week or the Ju-87 too strong?

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XyZspineZyX
11-23-2003, 12:28 PM
Pls. take a look on Ju-87 damage modell. A couple of days before, it took 327 hits befor the Ju-87 was smoking, not burning.

http://www.vow-hq.com ( <A HREF=)/index.php?page=mission&action/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif pen&id=155" target=_blank>http://www.vow-hq.com/index.php?page=mission&action/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif pen&id=155</a>

This is only one example, you always need 300+ shkas hits to damage a Ju-87.

Is the shkas to week or the Ju-87 too strong?

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XyZspineZyX
11-23-2003, 03:22 PM
Stuka is a ground attack plane and because of that very heavily armored. It was planned to endure a lot of hits. Shkas is a rifle caliber mg and is not the right tool to down a Stuka. You must hit the engine from above or below or kill the pilot by shooting through the roof.

XyZspineZyX
11-23-2003, 05:17 PM
The il2s are amazingly strong as well as the i153 again taking massive ammounts of 108 hits.

it sounds like a fluke occasion, i seem to be able to explode ju87s with shvaks very easily and with the 108 cannon they explode from 1 hit while the il2s take many to the wings, the stukas fuselage seems strong but usually kills the pilots but the wings rip right off



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XyZspineZyX
11-23-2003, 08:24 PM
In the 1.11 version I managed to put 1600 hits into a Stuka before it went down on fire with a dead pilot and a wing missing.

Stuka were indeed reported to be tough, they sometimes came back with 200 rifle sized holes.

But 200 is way less than 1600. If the Ju-87 DM hasn't changed with 1.2 it's probably still off.

XyZspineZyX
11-23-2003, 08:41 PM
well, tough does not mean 300+ hits. Some comrades scored 400+ hits.

The structure remains undamaged, with the same amount of bullets I shot 3 BleheimI some VOW Missions earlier....

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XyZspineZyX
11-24-2003, 12:18 AM
There are a lot of planes, which have concrete DM:

http://www.vow-hq.com/index.php?page=mission&action=open&id=274

Look at the ammount of hits and the number of planes, which have been shot down by the blue pilots.



Or the following one, where I hit a LaGG3 with 82 bullets, before it crashed (most of them were 20mm).

http://www.vow-hq.com/index.php?page=mission&action=open&id=309



-------------------
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Message Edited on 11/24/0312:24AM by Atzebrueck

XyZspineZyX
11-24-2003, 06:24 AM
All i can say is ...

Learn to shoot

Greetings

http://www.rolfwolf.de/sig/sig.jpg

XyZspineZyX
11-24-2003, 09:00 AM
RolfWolf wrote:
- All i can say is ...
-
- Learn to shoot
-


http://www.schildersmilies.de/schilder/amen.gif


If you shoot 1600 times at the same unimportant part of the aircraft you can't expect to score a kill.
Also the visual damage model of the stuka fuselage is not very good, there are only some small black parts and small bullet holes.
Its very hard to fly a heavy damaged stuka.


"HyperLobby 4 Ever"

Message Edited on 11/24/0308:03AM by Stefan-R

XyZspineZyX
11-24-2003, 10:12 AM
You really think there is an airplane that stands 1600 hits? Better not take a part in such discussions...

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XyZspineZyX
11-24-2003, 02:04 PM
Just shoot at the inverted section of the wings, above the wheel. It will be torn apart in a single burst.

Just like all the other planes: KNOW your enemy, its weaknesses, and yours /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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XyZspineZyX
11-24-2003, 03:31 PM
There are planes that are not modelled right when it comes to damage.

The Stuka and the Heinkel are both harder to shoot down then a B17, just to name an example.

XyZspineZyX
11-24-2003, 03:51 PM
"The Stuka and the Heinkel are both harder to shoot down then a B17, just to name an example."


Lol

Are you sure you can down B17 with Hurricane MkI that easily ?


Your statement is wrong. I can easily kill any Stuka or He111 or Ju88 but B17 is much much harder with a Hurricane mkI.

XyZspineZyX
11-24-2003, 04:23 PM
330 round of Rifle Caliber sized bullets are not much for a Plane, especialy for a strnoger build Ground attack plane like the Stuka.
You cannot count with these weapons to tear a wing off or something like this.

The British Pilots in Bob with thier Rifle size MG equipped
Hurricanes and Spitfires got the same probem to German He 111 and Ju 88 Bombers.


The Stuka was build for Dive Bombimg and in this the Wings and Fuselage have to take a lot of stress.
And because of this, it can take a lot of hits from Rifle sized Bullets before it breaks.



http://www.rolfwolf.de/sig/sig.jpg

Message Edited on 11/24/03 03:25PM by RolfWolf

Message Edited on 11/24/0303:26PM by RolfWolf

XyZspineZyX
11-24-2003, 07:27 PM
JtD wrote:
- In the 1.11 version I managed to put 1600 hits into
- a Stuka before it went down on fire with a dead
- pilot and a wing missing.


I don't believe you. To score 1600 hits you would need a plane with 8000 rounds (20% hit rate for a very good shooter). Which plane has 8000 rounds in FB? And you must not be a very good shooter if you can spend 1600 hits downing a Stuka! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Four Stuka kills with a Hurricane on a track, easy:

http://www.kolumbus.fi/jan.niukkanen/quick0013.ntrk

And couple of shots describing Stuka durability in the real life:

http://www.kolumbus.fi/jan.niukkanen/87malta.jpg



http://www.kolumbus.fi/jan.niukkanen/87russia.jpg



-jippo

XyZspineZyX
11-24-2003, 07:49 PM
remmber us brits downed em so much they couldnt be used
wid .303 ammo


whineingu /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
11-24-2003, 08:22 PM
S!
The beginning of the film (link under the picture), shows the size of a Stuka and its wing thickness, rifle calibre bullets would have not degraded the Ju87B2 armoured version in FB that quickly.

This pic shows the JU87B2 I rtb'd in a mission after an encounter with flak and an i16, some times you see the damage in the DM and sometimes you dont in this mission of the pilots left in game around 9 pilots. 3 didnt see it as this badly damaged.

http://server4.uploadit.org/files/241103-grab0000.jpg


Ju87 film in below link

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/alphas/stuka.avi

Message Edited on 11/24/03 07:28PM by KG26_Alpha

Message Edited on 11/24/0310:43PM by KG26_Alpha

XyZspineZyX
11-24-2003, 09:19 PM
Jippo01 wrote:
- I don't believe you.

Okay.

- To score 1600 hits you would
- need a plane with 8000 rounds (20% hit rate for a
- very good shooter).

I took a I-16 type 18, with a convergence set to 100 meters, went to the AI's six at a distance of 100 meters and started firing. I probably scored 60 to 70% hits (don't remember, but was more than 50%). I don't even know if I had limited ammo on.

- Which plane has 8000 rounds in
- FB?

Pe-8? DB-3? He-111? Ju-88? I don't know, but I bet the b-17 has more. :-P

- And you must not be a very good shooter if you
- can spend 1600 hits downing a Stuka!

It was a test after someone complained about te Ju-87 DM.

And, like I said, by the time I put 1600 rounds into it, it had:
- lost a wing
- was on fire
- had a dead pilot
And 1600 was the maximum out of maybe 20 tries. Still, 1600 is just to much.

XyZspineZyX
11-25-2003, 03:54 AM
The Stuka was not considered 'tough', it was considered easy to kill. There are countless reports of single pilots downing 3, 4 or even 5 stukas in one sortie, with hurricanes, spitfires, Yaks and La's. The fact the Rudel survived as many missions as he did is considered something of a miracle!

Ju87's were not heavily armored either, you need more horsepower if you are gonna lay in a bunch of armor, and the Ju87 didn't have extra horsepower. the gunner was very vulnerable, how often do you get a kill on the gunner in IL2? If you had armor plate behind the gunner in a real Stuka, it would be very tailheavy, probably unflyable. Thats a long ways behind the COG on a Stuka.

Stukas were divebombers, but that does not mean they had super strength wings compared to fighters. Most fighters were used as divebombers as well, the stuka excelled as a divebomber because it was stable. Almost any warplane was strong enough to withstand the G force pulling out of a dive, the limiting factor was the pilot, not the plane.

Everyone knows that the Stuka used to be easy to kill in the early versions of this game, but the game designers later chose to make it as tough as an IL2. IL2's were known to be very tough to kill, Stukas were not. Making the Stuka tough was done for the sake of 'gameplay', and not for historical accuracy IMO.

I hear endless ridiculous discussion about how ineffective rifle calibre bullets were, from people who know nothing about ballistics. You can shoot any high-powered rifle bullet clean through the engine block of any inline airplane engine from WWII. You get a hole in a cylinder, you got no compression, and no power. Oil lines are thin metal, the oil tanks are not armored.

Control cables can be servered easily by rifle calibre bullets, and wingspars are penetrated by rifle calibre bullets. Put a few holes in a wingspar, it's gonna fracture and if you pull any G at all, it will come off.
Small calibre ammo also had some incendiary rds mixed in, so things like ailerons, which were often fabric covered, are gonna burn, not to mention things like oil or gasoline.

Yes, you can shoot 1600 rds into the same hole in the wing, or fuselage, and do no damage, but if you shoot 1600 rds, some of em are gonna hit vital parts.

S! Budanova

XyZspineZyX
11-25-2003, 08:56 AM
good Post, Buda ;-)

Keep in mind that Rudel often had a squadron of fighters around him, attacking tanks.

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XyZspineZyX
11-25-2003, 10:31 AM
JaboTex wrote:
- "The Stuka and the Heinkel are both harder to shoot
- down then a B17, just to name an example."
-
-
- Lol
-
- Are you sure you can down B17 with Hurricane MkI
- that easily ?
-
-
- Your statement is wrong. I can easily kill any Stuka
- or He111 or Ju88 but B17 is much much harder with a
- Hurricane mkI.

Maybe I need to clearify my statement.

Heinkels, Stuka's and Ju88 can be killed fast with pilot kills.

But what I am talking about is structural damage.

The engines and wings of a B17 catch fire much faster then the Heinkels or Stuka's.
I have not tried the Ju88's yet with the RC patch.

This is with rifle caliber and .50's.

Even with the Hurricane MKI I was able to shoot the engines/wings of a B17 on fire much faster then on a Heinkel or a Stuka.

That doesn't seem correct.

XyZspineZyX
11-25-2003, 11:26 AM
RolfWolf wrote:

"330 round of Rifle Caliber sized bullets are not much for a Plane, especialy for a strnoger build Ground attack plane like the Stuka.You cannot count with these weapons to tear a wing off or something like this.

The British Pilots in Bob with thier Rifle size MG
equipped Hurricanes and Spitfires got the same probem to
German He 111 and Ju 88 Bombers.

The Stuka was build for Dive Bombimg and in this the Wings and Fuselage have to take a lot of stress.And because of this, it can take a lot of hits from Rifle sized Bullets before it breaks."


Die-hard Stuka enthusiasts may chose to ignore this.

Below is a reference from 'The Battle of Britain' - not the film but the book. And its authors? Well only Air Marshal Sir Dennis Crowley-Milling, KCB. CBE. DSO. DFC. AE. - Richard Townsend-Bickers - Gordon Swanborough - William Green - Bill Gunston - Air Vice Marshal J. E. (Johnnie) Johnson, CB. CBE. DSO. DFC. DL. - Mike Spick - Group Captain Sir Hugh Dundas, CBE. DSO. DFC. DL.

And this is what they have to say about the stuka..

"The first Ju87 sorties in strength actually took place on August 8, five days before Adler Tag, suffering severe losses despite Bf 109Es providing top cover. On Adler Tag itself, Ju87s enroute for Middle Wallop airfield were bounced by spitfires of No 609 Squadron, nine of the dive bombers being promptly despatched. But this was only a foretaste of what was in store for the Stukagruppen. Within six days, 41 Ju87s had been lost; it was patently obvious that this was no replay of the Polish and French campaigns, and the Stuka had been revealed for what it was - an inadequately armed and highly vulnerable warplane. To prevent the Stukagruppen from being decimated, the Oberkommando der Luftwaffe had no recourse but to withdraw the Ju87 from the Cherbourg area to the Pas de Calais where it was to sit out the closing phases of the battle. The last Stuka sorties in force against British targets took place on August 16, when I and III/StG.2 lost nine aircraft in an attack on Tangmere, and on August 18, when StG.77 lost 16 aircraft after attacking Ford and Thorney Island. The shock administered by the combat attrition of the Battle was sufficient to disenchant some of the most ardent of Ju87's protagonists within the Luftwaffe."

So please, before espousing pseudo sage like wisdom on the 'problems' RAF pilots supposedly faced during the Battle of Britain, it might be worth getting your facts right first.

This debate has already taken place...two weeks ago. Yes, rifle rounds will not do much to a Stuka or He111...but then Oleg has designed them to deal with the cannoned armed Soviet types of 1941. What we desparetly need is the 1939/40 pre-up-armoured versions of both these aircraft....please Oleg old chap /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://www.nzfpm.co.nz/images/small/airtoair14.jpg


S/Ldr. Ginger
C/O. No.601 (County of London) Squadron
http://www.tangmerepilots-raf.co.uk

XyZspineZyX
11-25-2003, 11:55 AM
I just like to mention that there was armor for both, the pilot and the gunner at least in the Ju-87 D model. It was 8 mm strong and this was probably sufficient to stop rifle caliber rounds.

Their structural strenght came partially from the two wing spars, opposed to many single spar constructions. This gave them higher stress resistance (in dives). Also, it increased damage resistance to a certain degree.

However, I consider it very unlikely that this construction will resist 150 hits into the wing tip. The Aluminium skin is very thin (see the pictures above), so the bullet will very likely go on to damage the spars, causing structural failure rather soon. At least, it should rip off the aileron in no time.

Different story in FB:

http://mitglied.lycos.de/jaytdee/IL-2/ju87.jpg


Since Oleg reworked the I-16 and the FW 190 DM, he may take a look at the Ju 87 as well.

XyZspineZyX
11-25-2003, 01:55 PM
S!


As was discused earlier perhaps in the BoB addon there will be a earlier Ju87B variant, not the Russian front one we appear to have in IL2FB for the Hurri MK1's and Spits.


Dont forget the Stuka carried the highest decorated Luftwaffe pilot of WWII.

Have a good look here.




http://www.pilotenbunker.de/Stuka/Rudel/rudel.htm






http://homepage.ntlworld.com/alphas/stuka.avi

Message Edited on 11/25/0301:04PM by KG26_Alpha

XyZspineZyX
11-25-2003, 02:50 PM
think i remmber reading a interview with a russian pilot when he said u could saw a plane in half with machine gun bullets
cos u chucking a vast amount of ammo on the target
160rounds per second maybe


whineingu /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
11-25-2003, 03:29 PM
KG26_Alpha wrote:
- S!
-
-
- As was discused earlier perhaps in the BoB addon
- there will be a earlier Ju87B variant, not the
- Russian front one we appear to have in IL2FB for the
- Hurri MK1's and Spits.
-
-
- Dont forget the Stuka carried the highest decorated
- Luftwaffe pilot of WWII.
-
- Have a good look here.
-
-
-
-
-
- <a
- href="http://www.pilotenbunker.de/Stuka/Rudel/rude
- l.htm"
- target=_blank>http://www.pilotenbunker.de/Stuka/Ru
- del/rudel.htm</a>
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
- <a
- href="http://homepage.ntlworld.com/alphas/stuka.avi"
- target=_blank>http://homepage.ntlworld.com/alphas/
- stuka.avi</a>
-
-
- Message Edited on 11/25/03 01:04PM by
- KG26_Alpha


There were only minor modifications between the Ju 87 B-1 and the Ju 87 B-2. The Ju 87 was not an heavily armored plane like the IL-2. Only the B2/U3 had some armor protection for pilot and gunner.
The Ju 87 had a sturdy construction, but was no flying tank




Message Edited on 11/25/0303:30PM by VVS-Manuc

XyZspineZyX
11-25-2003, 03:43 PM
JtD wrote:

- However, I consider it very unlikely that this
- construction will resist 150 hits into the wing tip.
- The Aluminium skin is very thin (see the pictures
- above), so the bullet will very likely go on to
- damage the spars, causing structural failure rather
- soon. At least, it should rip off the aileron in no
- time.
-
- Different story in FB:
-
http://mitglied.lycos.de/jaytdee/IL-2/ju87.jpg

-
- Since Oleg reworked the I-16 and the FW 190 DM, he
- may take a look at the Ju 87 as well.
-
-

Thx for the picture, it showes exactly what i said: if you shoot 200 times in the wing tip you destroy the aluminium skin and you may damage the spares.
But do you expect that the stuka explodes or cant fly anymore if it lost a small part of the wings? Look at the pictures with the big hole in the wing from 20mm flak. This stuka flew back to the homebase.

Also, visual damage model is not the real damage model. Did you fly the stuka with the 160 bullet holes in the wingtip?

"HyperLobby 4 Ever"

XyZspineZyX
11-25-2003, 04:52 PM
Stefan-R wrote:
-
- Thx for the picture, it showes exactly what i said:
- if you shoot 200 times in the wing tip you destroy
- the aluminium skin and you may damage the spares.
- But do you expect that the stuka explodes or cant
- fly anymore if it lost a small part of the wings?
- Look at the pictures with the big hole in the wing
- from 20mm flak. This stuka flew back to the
- homebase.
-
- Also, visual damage model is not the real damage
- model. Did you fly the stuka with the 160 bullet
- holes in the wingtip?
-
- "HyperLobby 4 Ever"



Qucikly counting that is less than 50 rounds hit, not 160.



-jippo

XyZspineZyX
11-25-2003, 05:03 PM
Budanova wrote:
- The Stuka was not considered 'tough', it was
- considered easy to kill.

Stukas were considerede easy to kill, but also extremely tough by the pilots who flew them. Easy to kill and structurally tough are two different matters.


- There are countless reports
- of single pilots downing 3, 4 or even 5 stukas in
- one sortie, with hurricanes, spitfires, Yaks and
- La's. The fact the Rudel survived as many missions
- as he did is considered something of a miracle!

Mention one such report, please.


- Ju87's were not heavily armored either, you need
- more horsepower if you are gonna lay in a bunch of
- armor, and the Ju87 didn't have extra horsepower.
- the gunner was very vulnerable, how often do you get
- a kill on the gunner in IL2? If you had armor plate
- behind the gunner in a real Stuka, it would be very
- tailheavy, probably unflyable. Thats a long ways
- behind the COG on a Stuka.

Ju-87 B onward had a armor plate behind pilot and another one behind the gunner. From D-series onwards also the cupola was armored.


- Stukas were divebombers, but that does not mean they
- had super strength wings compared to fighters. Most
- fighters were used as divebombers as well, the stuka
- excelled as a divebomber because it was stable.
- Almost any warplane was strong enough to withstand
- the G force pulling out of a dive, the limiting
- factor was the pilot, not the plane.

But not all planes were required to pull out from dive at 5G with 2000kg of bombs underneath. Add to that safety margins.


- Everyone knows that the Stuka used to be easy to
- kill in the early versions of this game, but the
- game designers later chose to make it as tough as an
- IL2. IL2's were known to be very tough to kill,
- Stukas were not. Making the Stuka tough was done
- for the sake of 'gameplay', and not for historical
- accuracy IMO.

Rubbish.


- I hear endless ridiculous discussion about how
- ineffective rifle calibre bullets were, from people
- who know nothing about ballistics. You can shoot
- any high-powered rifle bullet clean through the
- engine block of any inline airplane engine from
- WWII. You get a hole in a cylinder, you got no
- compression, and no power. Oil lines are thin metal,
- the oil tanks are not armored.

Rifle caliber AP rounds ar able to punch through no more than 10mm of steel at 90 degree angle and at 100m (3/8in at 100yds). Mention one aricraft engine block that less than 10mm of metal in it.

Need to study more before making such statements.


- Control cables can be servered easily by rifle
- calibre bullets, and wingspars are penetrated by
- rifle calibre bullets. Put a few holes in a
- wingspar, it's gonna fracture and if you pull any G
- at all, it will come off.

Structural failure after some time and damage isn't modelled in any of the planes in the game. This would also apply to planes like I-16, FW-190, P-51....

But it is not modelled.


- Small calibre ammo also had some incendiary rds
- mixed in, so things like ailerons, which were often
- fabric covered, are gonna burn, not to mention
- things like oil or gasoline.


And Stukas ailerons are fabric covered, are they??


-jippo

XyZspineZyX
11-25-2003, 05:09 PM
JtD wrote:
- Jippo01 wrote:
-- I don't believe you.
-
- Okay.
-
-- To score 1600 hits you would
-- need a plane with 8000 rounds (20% hit rate for a
-- very good shooter).
-
- I took a I-16 type 18, with a convergence set to 100
- meters, went to the AI's six at a distance of 100
- meters and started firing. I probably scored 60 to
- 70% hits (don't remember, but was more than 50%). I
- don't even know if I had limited ammo on.


You better get some proof first, though. Make a track where you score 1600 hits on a Stuka in FB. Much better for everyone.

Statement is ridiculous because best pilots in our squadron nearly ever score more than 20%, and we rank very highly in VEF for instance. Even if you shoot at bombers dead astern from 100m it is likely that 50% of your rounds have missed due to plane shake and dispersion.


So get a bullet count before making claims. If there is there is a bug it sure doesn't help making funny statements without any proof. Make your case and if you have a solid problem I'll put it forward to Oleg, ok?


-jippo

XyZspineZyX
11-25-2003, 06:22 PM
10mm of mild steel, or hardened armor plate steel?
Engine blocks are cast mild steel. Bring your car over to my place and let me bounce some rifle ammo off the engine! lol (Police forces routinely disable automobiles with 9mm and .357 magnum pistol ammo.)

BTW, Rudel was shot down 30 times, all by ground fire. He was one lucky SOB.

If you look at photos of Stukas, you can see that both pilot and gunner are visible from the sternum area up, so upper torso was not protected, except from directly behind for pilot. Shots from any angle except dead astern, are going to kill the pilot, and fron dead astern, any shots fired from above the centerline, are going to kill the gunner, unless he ducks, and he can't shoot back if he ducks.

Suffice it to say, Stukas were considered highly vulnerable on both the Eastern and Western Fronts, by both the allies and the axis. Stukas only operated on the Eastern Front with heavy air cover, that's why Rudel was never shot down by enemy planes, only by ground fire.

Multiple stuka kills in one sortie? Ivan Khozedub got 3 in one sortie, and S.L. Bert Houle, RCAF got four Ju87D models in North Africa with a Hurricane Mk.II in one sortie.

XyZspineZyX
11-25-2003, 07:19 PM
Budanova wrote:
- 10mm of mild steel, or hardened armor plate steel?
- Engine blocks are cast mild steel. Bring your car
- over to my place and let me bounce some rifle ammo
- off the engine! lol (Police forces routinely
- disable automobiles with 9mm and .357 magnum pistol
- ammo.)

You watch too much TV. I served in Armoured Brigade and I know what I'm talking about. 9mm can disable a car puncturing a radiator, but 4 inches of fresh wood will stop a FMJ bullet. Not to mention the CEPP or HP rounds police use. Penetration is really minimal. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


- If you look at photos of Stukas, you can see that
- both pilot and gunner are visible from the sternum
- area up, so upper torso was not protected, except
- from directly behind for pilot. Shots from any angle
- except dead astern, are going to kill the pilot, and
- fron dead astern, any shots fired from above the
- centerline, are going to kill the gunner, unless he
- ducks, and he can't shoot back if he ducks.

Pilots torso was fully protected by an armoured turn-over structure by the time Germany started Barbarossa. Gunner in B-2 is protected by an armoured plate in the fuselage covering the whole fuselage. In D-version onwards the gunner cupola was equipped with closeable armored plates also in the cupola. He could continue firing even after closing the armour plates. He was also protected by the ammunition boxes to his left and right. I should know, I made the cockpits for FB.


- Suffice it to say, Stukas were considered highly
- vulnerable on both the Eastern and Western Fronts,
- by both the allies and the axis. Stukas only
- operated on the Eastern Front with heavy air cover,
- that's why Rudel was never shot down by enemy
- planes, only by ground fire.

Vulnerable to attack and structurally vulnerable are two different points. Read my post above. For example Me-262 is not very vulnerable (almost immune infact) to attack, but very vulnerably structurally. Opposite applies for Ju-87.


- Multiple stuka kills in one sortie? Ivan Khozedub
- got 3 in one sortie, and S.L. Bert Houle, RCAF got
- four Ju87D models in North Africa with a Hurricane
- Mk.II in one sortie.


Is this proven by the loss statistics of the opposing force? Until that they are called "claims". And I'm serious with this point.

XyZspineZyX
11-25-2003, 11:39 PM
Jippo01, are you seriously claiming that in the 1.2RC01 patch the Stuka DM is accurate?
The Stuka was a nice plane when you owned the air.
If not then it was toast because it was slow and weak, not the flying tank it is now.

Against cannon fire it seems ok but it should not soak so much rifle caliber ammo as it does now.
The same goes for the Heinkel.

And I will record my own tracks and put them forward to Oleg.
I don't need you for that.

XyZspineZyX
11-26-2003, 01:10 PM
Stefan-R wrote:
- But do you expect that the stuka explodes or cant fly anymore
- if it lost a small part of the wings?

Of course not, but the pilot should be dead by now. (If you stop posting nonsense, I will do the same.)

- Look at the pictures with the big hole in the wing from 20mm
- flak. This stuka flew back to the homebase.

The wing spars seem to be intact, one is just a little bent. Show me a picture with a Ju-87 that came back without wing spars or with 150 holes in the spars.

Jippo01 wrote:
- Quickly counting that is less than 50 rounds hit, not 160.

Just proves FB counts better than you do. :-)

- Structural failure after some time and damage isn't
- modelled in any of the planes in the game. This would also
- apply to planes like I-16, FW-190, P-51....
Two of which are getting reworked with the next patch, making them more vulnerable, iirc.

- You better get some proof first, though. Make a track where
- you score 1600 hits on a Stuka in FB. Much better for everyone.
Not for me. Takes time. Anyway, see bottom.

- Statement is ridiculous because best pilots in our squadron
- nearly ever score more than 20%, and we rank very highly in
- VEF for instance. Even if you shoot at bombers dead astern
- from 100m it is likely that 50% of your rounds have missed
- due to plane shake and dispersion.

20% in air combat is great, not so in DM tests. But it doesn't matter anyway. Even if I had to fire a billion rounds, 1600 hits is still 1600 hits.

- So get a bullet count before making claims.

If FB console counts correctly, I scored 1600 hits. Or 150 in a wing tip.

- If there is there is a bug it sure doesn't help making
- funny statements without any proof.

I don't know if it's a bug. The Stuka ist just tougher than it should be IMHO. My statements aren't funny, there are true. If I say I put 1600 rounds into something, I did. You say anything else, you accuse me of lying.
- Make your case and if you have a solid problem I'll put it forward to Oleg, ok?

1st: It's not my case.
2nd: I don't have a solid problem. I am not responsible for anything regarding this sim and I am enjoying it very much as it is now. The Stuka seems to be to though. Not my problem.
3rd: If you wish, you can watch this track:

http://mitglied.lycos.de/jaytdee/IL-2/especiallyforjippo.ntrk

This are 1986 air hits with a Hurricane Mk. II, poor gunnery and unlimited ammo included. I did not count 1986, this is what FB counted when I asked my stats in console. Maybe you can somehow duplicate. Again it goes down on fire, with a dead pilot and a wing missing.

I have another one with a LaGG-3, putting 3095 hits out of 4622 rounds into the rear fuselage without effect. I just happened to ignite one wing tank and after that it went down. Track is 1 MB, that's why I don't upload. I don't think it makes a difference if it is 1986 or 3095.

----------

Regarding 10 mm penetration of rifle sized bullets: That's against hardened steel.



Message Edited on 11/26/0302:35PM by JtD

XyZspineZyX
11-26-2003, 04:52 PM
JtD wrote:
http://mitglied.lycos.de/jaytdee/IL-2/especiallyforjippo.ntrk" (http://mitglied.lycos.de/jaytdee/IL-2/especiallyforjippo.ntrk)

- This are 1986 air hits with a Hurricane Mk. II, poor
- gunnery and unlimited ammo included. I did not count
- 1986, this is what FB counted when I asked my stats
- in console. Maybe you can somehow duplicate. Again
- it goes down on fire, with a dead pilot and a wing
- missing.
-
- I have another one with a LaGG-3, putting 3095 hits
- out of 4622 rounds into the rear fuselage without
- effect. I just happened to ignite one wing tank and
- after that it went down. Track is 1 MB, that's why I
- don't upload. I don't think it makes a difference if
- it is 1986 or 3095.
-
-----------
-
- Regarding 10 mm penetration of rifle sized bullets:
- That's against hardened steel.


Thanks for the track, but you just proved my case if anyones!!! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

In that track you effectively downed the Stuka with 7 hits! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif After SEVEN hits Stuka has a smoking engine is just as good as downed plane. It wouldn't have returned from England would it? You just wasted looaads of ammo on it after you made it a kill waiting to happen. Tough as a tank, eh? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Catastrophical damage from rifle cal ammo doesn't seem to happen without very funny effects on overall DM, so what are we going to do?


Regarding the armor that is 10mm homogenous steel plate,not specialised armor as such.



-jippo




Message Edited on 11/26/0303:57PM by Jippo01

XyZspineZyX
11-26-2003, 06:30 PM
I'd like to see the same test flown against a LaGG-3 or a P 11c. In the past I always found these two harder to bring down with MGs than a Stuka. Has this changed in 1.2RC? (Don't have it myself)

BTW before anybody mentions JTD's results and "average pilots" in the same sentence please watch some of the tracks on his site:
http://mitglied.lycos.de/jaytdee/IL-2/il2.html
He shoots down 26 He-111 within 90 seconds with the limited ammo of a Yak 9-K.
He can fly backwards underneath a bridge in an I-16 (that was possible in IL-2 classic) and land it, still backwards.

---------------
http://home.arcor.de/rayluck/sturmovik/stulogo-banner.jpg (http://home.arcor.de/rayluck/sturmovik/)

Kampagne für IL-2 1.2: I-16 - Kampf im Kaukasus (Deutsch) (http://home.arcor.de/rayluck/sturmovik/kampagne.html)

XyZspineZyX
11-26-2003, 06:31 PM
well am no expert but i do believe that the stuka received armour by the time it went to the eastern front.
In FB i dont find them that tough- they withstand punishment alright but hey that's normal- my god no German pilot or gunner would have taken off in those things if they came apart after a few shots.

Of course they need air cover but so do most bombers. I find that their main weapon is being slow and therefore its easy for a fighter to over shoot them!
Oh and by the way online i find that very few fighter jocks actually escort the bombers preferring to zoom off and try and raise their score. The few times i've flown in a bomber i find it irritating that every fighter throws himself at the first enemy whilst the bombers fly on and get pounced by the second wave of enemy fighters- avoiding the flak is bad enough- having fighters take pot shots at u unmolested is horrible. So as a fighter guy myself my plea to all other figter jocks- take care of the guys u r escorting!

By the way anybody have a link to info about how best to escort? There must be proper tactics for that.

right time for a drink

XyZspineZyX
11-26-2003, 07:02 PM
- Thanks for the track, but you just proved my case if
- anyones!!!

What's your case? So far, you only politely accused me of lying...that's not a case.

- In that track you effectively downed the Stuka with
- 7 hits!

Following this stupid approach you basically only need one hit of any caliber against any plane. Shoot the pilot. Hell, I even wasted 6 bullets. But than, I have 12 guns. What are they good for?
That says nothing about structural strenght. It appears to me, that you are either unwilling or incapable to understand what this thread is actually about.

- After SEVEN hits Stuka has a
- smoking engine is just as good as downed plane. It
- wouldn't have returned from England would it?

Do you play often enough to know the effect of this kind of smoke? I just shot a Ju 87 "smoking" half an hour ago, it's still flying. At 300 km/h, that's 150 km. Back from London to France. It's probably going to fly until the fuel is gone, going from France to London, killing some people and return to France. Great interception.

- You
- just wasted looaads of ammo on it after you made it
- a kill waiting to happen. Tough as a tank, eh?
- Catastrophical damage from rifle cal ammo doesn't
- seem to happen without very funny effects on overall
- DM, so what are we going to do?

For you, once more: This is not about how little ammo you need to down a plane, but how much the plane survives in flyable condition. If you don't get the difference, I'm sorry for you. The plane survives a ridiculous amount of damage. You doubt it, fine. Now you've been proven wrong. You still insist, you're narrowminded.

Just in case you are actually interested in the subject, rather than defending your position: Put the 3000 hits (with the LaGG) in a line, assuming every hit makes a hole that is 8 mm in diameter, you'll have one row of 24 meters length.
Giving the Ju 87 fuselage a diameter of a little more than a meter, this equals six clean cuts behind the cockpit. But who cares, it's realistic because you can kill the pilot with just one round.
I don't care about side effects, they are not my problem. Structural effects of 7.xx are there, they are just to weak.

XyZspineZyX
11-26-2003, 07:11 PM
Budanova wrote:
- The Stuka was not considered 'tough', it was
- considered easy to kill. There are countless reports
- of single pilots downing 3, 4 or even 5 stukas in
- one sortie, with hurricanes, spitfires, Yaks and
- La's. The fact the Rudel survived as many missions
- as he did is considered something of a miracle!
-
- Ju87's were not heavily armored either, you need
- more horsepower if you are gonna lay in a bunch of
- armor, and the Ju87 didn't have extra horsepower.
- the gunner was very vulnerable, how often do you get
- a kill on the gunner in IL2? If you had armor plate
- behind the gunner in a real Stuka, it would be very
- tailheavy, probably unflyable. Thats a long ways
- behind the COG on a Stuka.
-
- Stukas were divebombers, but that does not mean they
- had super strength wings compared to fighters. Most
- fighters were used as divebombers as well, the stuka
- excelled as a divebomber because it was stable.
- Almost any warplane was strong enough to withstand
- the G force pulling out of a dive, the limiting
- factor was the pilot, not the plane.
-
- Everyone knows that the Stuka used to be easy to
- kill in the early versions of this game, but the
- game designers later chose to make it as tough as an
- IL2. IL2's were known to be very tough to kill,
- Stukas were not. Making the Stuka tough was done
- for the sake of 'gameplay', and not for historical
- accuracy IMO.
-
- I hear endless ridiculous discussion about how
- ineffective rifle calibre bullets were, from people
- who know nothing about ballistics. You can shoot
- any high-powered rifle bullet clean through the
- engine block of any inline airplane engine from
- WWII. You get a hole in a cylinder, you got no
- compression, and no power. Oil lines are thin metal,
- the oil tanks are not armored.
-
- Control cables can be servered easily by rifle
- calibre bullets, and wingspars are penetrated by
- rifle calibre bullets. Put a few holes in a
- wingspar, it's gonna fracture and if you pull any G
- at all, it will come off.
- Small calibre ammo also had some incendiary rds
- mixed in, so things like ailerons, which were often
- fabric covered, are gonna burn, not to mention
- things like oil or gasoline.
-
- Yes, you can shoot 1600 rds into the same hole in
- the wing, or fuselage, and do no damage, but if you
- shoot 1600 rds, some of em are gonna hit vital
- parts.
-
- S! Budanova
-
-
Except IL-2 gunners had nothing for armor protection and a very high death rate because of it. If it's hard to kill them in game something seriously wrong with the damage model. Pilot only had protection.

XyZspineZyX
11-26-2003, 07:52 PM
RedManAce wrote:
- Except IL-2 gunners had nothing for armor protection
- and a very high death rate because of it. If it's
- hard to kill them in game something seriously wrong
- with the damage model. Pilot only had protection.

That is not true; the gunner sat outside the armored box, but was protected by a 6 to 9 mm armor plate from six o'clock fire. Standard with every production-two seater, not the field modification variants. Protects against 7.92 mm and HE rounds to some degree. Extended canopy also was bullet resistant.




Message Edited on 11/26/0306:52PM by JtD

XyZspineZyX
11-26-2003, 09:18 PM
JtD wrote:
- For you, once more: This is not about how little
- ammo you need to down a plane, but how much the
- plane survives in flyable condition. If you don't
- get the difference, I'm sorry for you. The plane
- survives a ridiculous amount of damage. You doubt
- it, fine. Now you've been proven wrong. You still
- insist, you're narrowminded.

You caught me there, so there is a bug with engine DM. It shouldn't fly more than 15 minutes with damaged engine. Plane in your track didn't survive ridiculous amount of damage, as it was a barely flying wreck long before it finally hit the ground. You had 7 hits when it SHOULD have been mortally wounded = a kill, dead plane. There is a one bug for us. It shouldn't have been anymore flyable after those 7 hits of yours. And after few hundred rounds hit it was already burning and would have exploded within minute or so if you just would have let it fly.


- Just in case you are actually interested in the
- subject, rather than defending your position: Put
- the 3000 hits (with the LaGG) in a line, assuming
- every hit makes a hole that is 8 mm in diameter,
- you'll have one row of 24 meters length.
-
- Giving the Ju 87 fuselage a diameter of a little
- more than a meter, this equals six clean cuts behind
- the cockpit. But who cares, it's realistic because
- you can kill the pilot with just one round.
- I don't care about side effects, they are not my
- problem. Structural effects of 7.xx are there, they
- are just to weak.


So is it a bug with the Stuka or with the 7.xx?

That is the real question here!


Also what is the effectiveness of 12.7mm and 20mm in relation with each other and 7.xx?


Stuka was exceptionally strong plane in the real life, no matter which way you want to look it. Just like Il-2 was. For example LaGG or I-16 were not considered exceptionally strong planes, nor were He-111's or Bf-110. Also DB-3 was not considered especially durable.


What you have to do is compare Ju-87 with these planes and decide for yourself if it is inline with DM of other planes in FB. My strong belief is that it is where it should be in relation to these others. You may disagree, but please test them before doing so. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif



I claim that the Ju-87 DM is correct in the game setting. It may have parts that have DM bugs (like the I-16 engine invulnerable to 7.xxmm's), but roughly speaking it is where it should be.



-jippo

XyZspineZyX
11-27-2003, 12:03 AM
Jippo01 wrote:
- Plane in your track didn't survive
- ridiculous amount of damage, as it was a barely
- flying wreck long before it finally hit the ground.

I always said it was an overkill, didn't I? :-)

- You had 7 hits when it SHOULD have been mortally
- wounded = a kill, dead plane. There is a one bug for
- us.

My point is not the engine. It is the rear fuselage, which is, as far as I can tell, totally immune against 7.xx. I uploaded the LaGG track now, so you can take a look at the number of round I put into the rear fuselage without seeing results.

http://mitglied.lycos.de/jaytdee/IL-2/justforjippo.ntrk

- It shouldn't have been anymore flyable after
- those 7 hits of yours.

I'd just say this is another thing to look at.

- So is it a bug with the Stuka or with the 7.xx?

From my experience it's always a combination of both, the gun and the target.

- That is the real question here!

I have an superficial answer. I will dig deeper into the thing when 1.2 final appears. I don't think it makes sense to work with 1.11 now. (I always do some tests, last ones were 20mm, 12.7mm and dispersion.)

- Also what is the effectiveness of 12.7mm and 20mm in
- relation with each other and 7.xx?

Shooting Yak-9u I got an average (from 20 tries) of :
MG 151/20: 11 hits
ShVAK: 16 hits
UBS: 35 hits
M2 Browning: 31 hits to down the Yak.
Maximum was
MG 151/20: 19 hits
ShVAK: 30 hits
UBS: 53 hits
M2 Browning: 52 hits.

So much about the relation 12.7 and 20mm.

Also, I needed about 50 hits with my single UBS on a MiG to destroy the Stukas rear fuselage (cutting the plane in half).

So much about the relation between 12.7 and 7.62mm. There is no relation.

- Stuka was exceptionally strong plane in the real
- life, no matter which way you want to look it.

I wont find a single statement where I disagree. Because I don't. But even the best structure should fall apart if it's hit by 2000+ rounds.

- Just
- like Il-2 was. For example LaGG or I-16 were not
- considered exceptionally strong planes, nor were
- He-111's or Bf-110. Also DB-3 was not considered
- especially durable.

I need about 150 hits into the rear fuselage of the I-16 with 7.62 to blow it up -> structural damage occurs. LaGG seems impossible to destroy, but the pilot get's killed very fast. (All this from 6 o'clock.)

- What you have to do is compare Ju-87 with these
- planes and decide for yourself if it is inline with
- DM of other planes in FB. My strong belief is that
- it is where it should be in relation to these
- others.

And I don't think so, the more I test, the less I think so.

- You may disagree, but please test them
- before doing so.

I allways do. I wouldn't always label it "scientific research" but "test" applies. Whenever I post here regarding game issues, I spent hours on the subject.

- I claim that the Ju-87 DM is correct in the game
- setting. It may have parts that have DM bugs (like
- the I-16 engine invulnerable to 7.xxmm's), but
- roughly speaking it is where it should be.

Oddly, the engine of my I-16 type 18 sometimes got shot up by the Ju 87's rear gunner. It lost so much power I couldn't catch the it anymore. Last time I had a Stuka pull away I was flying P 11. :-)

XyZspineZyX
11-27-2003, 02:16 PM
OK, thanks! So the tail section is pretty invulnerable then, is it? That deserves further testing for sure.


But the Yak-9U has similar durability? AFAIK Yaks weren't know for their durability, about fifty on both?


I think the root of the problem of insufficient damage by most of the weapons. I think that is compensating the easy of hitting in the game. We lack slipstream and turbulence effects up high, and hitting is very easy. If we would have more effective weapons we would have very short dogfights in the air.

I tested the I-16 bug on the ground in FMB with myself sitting in the gunner position of stuka. Firing all ammunition of D into I-16 engine caused no damage for some reason. But it may be different if the plane is players, and Oleg already knows the bug anyway and they will fix it when they have time. So it is not very important.



-jippo

XyZspineZyX
11-27-2003, 03:32 PM
This is incredible !!!

i can see so much lie here!!!
Add some wrong knowledge and you have a good pack.



1- Stop saying it is hard to kill a Ju87B2 in IL2FB
Better say : YOU ARE BAD AT Killing Ju87 B2.
Learn to shoot BEFORE you complain.


2- Stop saying things like 'the gunner was very vulnerable, how often do you get a kill on the gunner in IL2?'

ANY TIME I SHOOT AT A JU87 i do kill the gunner.



3- Stop comparing killing a B17 and killng a Stuka.
Or you HAVE to compare using the same attacking aircraft !!!
Try Shooting at a B17 using Hurricane mk1 and come back saying that B17 is harder to kill.


Now before you start crying 'this guys knows nothing about FB, i'm a very good pilot and i know Ju87B2 is overmodelled'


just come and read the next post.
I will teach you how to use a Hurricane Mk1 when you have to shoot a Ju87B2 or He111 with rifle guns.

I'm not a good player of FB so anything i do you can do it too.

XyZspineZyX
11-27-2003, 03:33 PM
Some RAF friends complained about how the Stuka was overmodeled in a BoB campaign i started and i wrote this to explain them how to kill a stuka EASILY with a Huricane 1938 as many of them thought such a scenario was heavy odds against RAF side because of the Hurricane 'underdog' when facing stukas and 109E :


***************************************

To kill Stukas in FB you have to do the same way real RAF pilots did
during BoB.

1 - kill the gunner
2 - finish the Stuka

To do so use the 8 MG to spray all your bullets into the rear gunner at

the first pass.
Dive from high six so he can not hit you AND you keep SPEED advantage
AND Bf109E will not catch you easily.

Here are some screen shot showing the gunner killed when i attak Stukas in

a hurricane MkI (the one from Bader during BoB if i recall correct).


http://www.ifrance.com/jabotex/raf/raf_tip_stuka_3.jpg
http://www.ifrance.com/jabotex/raf/raf_tip_stuka_4.jpg
http://www.ifrance.com/jabotex/raf/raf_tip_stuka_5.jpg
http://www.ifrance.com/jabotex/raf/raf_tip_stuka_6.jpg
http://www.ifrance.com/jabotex/raf/raf_tip_stuka_7.jpg

Now that the gunner is out ( you never know when a gunner of Stuka is

killed as there is no external signs except that it wont fire back,
but a solid burst into the fuselage of the stuka will do the job fine),

pass to tactic no 2 :
Finish him.

To do so you have to put it into flames.
This is done by aiming here on the particular points (use the 8 MG
to spray some bullets in the area where wing join fuselage and it
will work like in the movies dont be shy with MG bullets : you have plenty

of them so use them).

http://www.ifrance.com/jabotex/raf/raf_tip_stuka_1.jpg
http://www.ifrance.com/jabotex/raf/raf_tip_stuka_2.jpg

You can wtach the tracks here : i did many because i know some
of you may day : you are just lucky and did it only once.
Notice i dont attack on first pass because i want you to see that
the Stuka do have ammunitions on rear MG , so you dont accuse me of killing

unarmed Stuka.

http://www.ifrance.com/jabotex/raf/stuka_1.ntrk
http://www.ifrance.com/jabotex/raf/stuka_2.ntrk
http://www.ifrance.com/jabotex/raf/stuka_3.ntrk
http://www.ifrance.com/jabotex/raf/stuka_4.ntrk
http://www.ifrance.com/jabotex/raf/stuka_5.ntrk
http://www.ifrance.com/jabotex/raf/stuka_6.ntrk
http://www.ifrance.com/jabotex/raf/stuka_7.ntrk

After that you will never say the Stuka is over armored and can not
easily be killed by a hurricane MKI.
Plus note that those Stukas are set at medium level and you will only
meet rookie in the bob campaign and AI can drive plane like human can
not : once you put some holes in a Stuka Wing a human player can hardly
manoeuver again. (much much harder than what AI can do).


Now before you start saying : OK we can kill the Stukas But HE111 is much

harder.

I will tell you how to kill EASILY any HE111.

The principle is the same here : so like real RAF pilots did.

1- take out the gunners one by one or better all at a time
2- finish the plane and the quickest way is to kill the pilot


The gunner that ay harm you are top turret and waist left and right.
Kill the gunners and you can finish the He111 at will by high six diving

pass.

http://www.ifrance.com/jabotex/raf/raf_tip_he111_1.jpg

http://www.ifrance.com/jabotex/raf/raf_tip_he111_2.jpg


Then the pilot :

http://www.ifrance.com/jabotex/raf/raf_tip_he111_3.jpg

http://www.ifrance.com/jabotex/raf/raf_tip_he111_4.jpg


To kill the gunners yo uhave to aim to the fuselage and fire all
alog the fuselage using your 8 MG fast firing.
When you shoot shoot to kill, no small burst especially if you are a
bad gunner.
Only if you are a godd gunner you can save ammo.
Shoot long burst into the fuselage and the gunners will be silenced.

http://www.ifrance.com/jabotex/raf/raf_tip_he111_5.jpg

http://www.ifrance.com/jabotex/raf/raf_tip_he111_6.jpg

http://www.ifrance.com/jabotex/raf/raf_tip_he111_8.jpg

http://www.ifrance.com/jabotex/raf/raf_tip_he111_9.jpg

http://www.ifrance.com/jabotex/raf/raf_tip_he111_10.jpg

http://www.ifrance.com/jabotex/raf/raf_tip_he111_11.jpg


Then kill the pilot :

http://www.ifrance.com/jabotex/raf/raf_tip_he111_7.jpg


The traks are here :

http://www.ifrance.com/jabotex/raf/he111_1.ntrk
http://www.ifrance.com/jabotex/raf/he111_2.ntrk
http://www.ifrance.com/jabotex/raf/he111_3.ntrk
http://www.ifrance.com/jabotex/raf/he111_4.ntrk
http://www.ifrance.com/jabotex/raf/he111_5.ntrk
http://www.ifrance.com/jabotex/raf/he111_6.ntrk


But i have also another thing to tell you, if you still think you
are the good pilots but the hurricane is a underdog EVEN when fighting the 109E then Jabos will play RAF side next week.
And we can even finish the campaign playing British side while
RAF_Smokyda bear and his friends can use the UBER plane me109E.

I really started that campaign to give FUN to BOTH teams.
And the missions are FAIR.

Oh and i forgot to mention : my tracks do show TOTAL kills but
to prevent any bomber to launch his bombs on target a small
burst is enough to make it release his bombs anywhere.

Plus only few hits put out of action engines on He111 which can than not come home anymore and so you can save ammo to kill 109E escort.

If you are a bad gunner dont do the error to put all your ammo in a bomber because you want the immediate kill. If you are a bad gunner just make him smoke his engines and he WILL NOT come back so your duty is done.


Tex

PS: here are the missions i used to do the tracks.
(Bomber medium level.)

Ps: be care ful when reading my posts, i'm french and not english native so my words may be incorrect, i do not speak fluently english.

http://www.ifrance.com/jabotex/raf/mis_he111.zip
http://www.ifrance.com/jabotex/raf/mis_stuka.zip

XyZspineZyX
11-27-2003, 05:15 PM
Jippo01 wrote:
- OK, thanks! So the tail section is pretty
- invulnerable then, is it? That deserves further
- testing for sure.

To me it looks like it is.

- But the Yak-9U has similar durability? AFAIK Yaks
- weren't know for their durability, about fifty on
- both?

No, 50 is the average for a Ju 87, but the maximum for a Yak-9u. Average for Yak is 30. The Yak takes about 60% the damage a Ju 87 takes (into the rear fuselage with UBS guns).

- I think the root of the problem of insufficient
- damage by most of the weapons.

I am not sure about this, because usually you'll get along with 10 20mm hits. Sometimes it takes an eternity to down the enemy, sometimes they fall apart after just 1 hit. I think 10 hits is just about the number a plane should take. Of course, it largely depends on the model, so it's just a very rough estimation.

Basically one should test every weapon against every plane or even better against every section every plane has - far beyond my capabilities.

JaboTex wrote:
- 1- Stop saying it is hard to kill a Ju87B2 in IL2FB
- Better say : YOU ARE BAD AT Killing Ju87 B2.
- Learn to shoot BEFORE you complain.

If you had paid attention, you'd know it's not about Ju 87's beeing hard to kill. It is about Ju 87 surviving to much damage. That is something completetly different.

- ANY TIME I SHOOT AT A JU87 i do kill the gunner.

I don't. I usually shoot at the wing roots, because they burn so easily. While you need two approaches, one for the gunner, one for the fuel tank, I need only one.
Attacking Heinkels in a Hurricane Mk.I is best done from the front imho - you'll hardly get hit but will very likely kill the pilot or damage the engines, depending on what you are shooting at.

XyZspineZyX
11-27-2003, 05:20 PM
JaboTex wrote:
- ...

Good post!

You have to use the advantage of the rifle cal guns: use high rate of fire to kill the unarmored gunner (it is easy to kill gunners of stuka and heinkel - i know it, the bandits kill my guys very often) and then shoot at the weak points -> fuel tank.

Shooting at the fuselage is useless, the small bullets don't make much structural damage like 20mm or 30mm cannons do.

"HyperLobby 4 Ever"

XyZspineZyX
11-27-2003, 06:43 PM
Cokol_88IAP wrote:
- You really think there is an airplane that stands
- 1600 hits? Better not take a part in such
- discussions...


I know there were a He 111s returning from over England with over 1000 rifle caliber bullet holes yet reaching and belly landing in France... IIRC there wasn`t even KIA onboard, lot`s of injuries though.

Also, I know of example of Bf 109 E, not even a bigger Stuka that was shot down finally when the controls were hit, but before it took some 300+ hits...

Small caliber MG was basically ineffective by WW2 standards.. only "critcal" hits helped.

http://www.mit.bme.hu/~tade/ac-pict/Hung-AF/pre-1945/Bf-109/Bf109col.gif

Vezérünk a Bátorság, K*sérµnk a Szerencse!
(Courage leads, Luck escorts us! - Historical motto of the 101st Puma Fighter Regiment)

Flight tests and other aviation performance data: http://www.pbase.com/isegrim

XyZspineZyX
11-27-2003, 06:49 PM
Budanova wrote:
-
- Ju87's were not heavily armored either, you need
- more horsepower if you are gonna lay in a bunch of
- armor, and the Ju87 didn't have extra horsepower.

Nice in theory, however I would like to point out the fact the Stuka from 'D' version onwards carried some 400 kg armor plates, ~same amount as Il-2. IIRC D-5 model further increased this.


- the gunner was very vulnerable, how often do you get
- a kill on the gunner in IL2? If you had armor plate
- behind the gunner in a real Stuka, it would be very
- tailheavy, probably unflyable. Thats a long ways
- behind the COG on a Stuka.

Again very nice conclusion you have come to while sitting in your armchair, however I would like to point out that in REAL Stuka D, rear gunner was protected from the rear and below by armor glass and armor plates, and so was the pilot was protected from below, behind (and front on some models). Oil cooler, (IIRC engine, too) was armored.



http://www.mit.bme.hu/~tade/ac-pict/Hung-AF/pre-1945/Bf-109/Bf109col.gif

Vezérünk a Bátorság, K*sérµnk a Szerencse!
(Courage leads, Luck escorts us! - Historical motto of the 101st Puma Fighter Regiment)

Flight tests and other aviation performance data: http://www.pbase.com/isegrim

XyZspineZyX
11-27-2003, 07:50 PM
Il-2 armor was around 700kg

**************
Member of 88-IAP: http://www.88-iap.de , sokol@88-iap.de
Member of Virtual Online War team: http://www.vow-hq.com

88.IAP>Sokol
in Hyperlobby: http://hyperfighter.jinak.cz/

XyZspineZyX
11-27-2003, 10:19 PM
Just found out the rear fuselage of Ju 87 can be destroyed by

MG 15
MG 81
Did some shooting as Ju 87 gunner. Anyway, more surprisingly I needed about 1000 hits with MG 81 to destroy the rear fuselage when shooting from 6 o'clock, but only about 200 when shooting from 3 o'clock.

XyZspineZyX
11-27-2003, 10:22 PM
JtD wrote:

- Did some shooting as Ju 87 gunner. Anyway, more
- surprisingly I needed about 1000 hits with MG 81 to
- destroy the rear fuselage when shooting from 6
- o'clock, but only about 200 when shooting from 3
- o'clock.


That applies to all damage since original Il-2. diret hits, not grazing shots. They are much more effective.


-jippo

XyZspineZyX
11-28-2003, 02:34 AM
This is the second thread on the Stuka DM I've seen this month. I think a big part of the problem is that Hurri pilots want to duplicate the results of BoB, and are frustrated that they can't in FB. Though this has been repeated countless times by others, let me repeat once again: you can't reinact the BoB with FB. We don't have the same German planes--we have German planes that are a direct result of their defeat over Britain. Even the Emils we have are updated with automatic prop pitch. We don't have the underarmored Ju87B1, we have the uparmored B2 and D models.

Thus it is completely pointless to site BoB sources about the fragility of Stukas. Stukas are slow and poorly armed, but are bound to be sturdier than a fighter. Oleg has always modelled divebombers as more structurally sound than other plane types--look at the Pe2 and Ju88.

The Hurri is a fine plane and quite capable of downing any of its contemporaries. With decent gunnery you should be able to down at least a couple Stukas with your limited ammo. Emils, as always, can be brought down quick burst or just a dirty look. Heinkels are very tough to bring down from 6 o clock. As illustrated above, you have to use the actual RAF tactic of blasting the cockpit in a headon. Read their accounts and you'll see that they learned the hard way that headon attacks were the only way to go. Downing a Ju88, now that's hard.

XyZspineZyX
11-28-2003, 03:46 AM
I just did three tests with the earliest model Stuka and the latest model I-16. The guns were synch'd at 100 yards. Twice I removed a wing and once the aircraft disentigrated. There was ammo after each kill. On the second track I emptied the magazines just to show how much was left. The third track was a quick attempt at some hi deflection shots to try and get a pilot kill, but, since I can't fly worth a crap and didn't have time to really get into a good position, it was not successful. Note that the gunner was killed in the second track. The tracks can be found at the following address...


http://www.whtboys.org/stukatracks

They are very small so downloading should not be a problem.

-WhtBoy.

XyZspineZyX
11-29-2003, 03:16 PM
Cokol_88IAP wrote:
-
- Il-2 armor was around 700kg
-

Yeah, on Il-10 and the limited production model with the 37mm cannons, not on the others where it weighted on avarage 450-500 kg...

http://www.mit.bme.hu/~tade/ac-pict/Hung-AF/pre-1945/Bf-109/Bf109col.gif

Vezérünk a Bátorság, K*sérµnk a Szerencse!
(Courage leads, Luck escorts us! - Historical motto of the 101st Puma Fighter Regiment)

Flight tests and other aviation performance data: http://www.pbase.com/isegrim

XyZspineZyX
11-30-2003, 01:16 AM
Another plane that has a too strong armor is the U-2, i was playing the finnish campaign and i had to destroy that recon plane. I spared all the bullets from my hurricane at very close range. That U-2 got shot from behind, above and under, it wasn't even smoking. I didn't try to shot the U-2 with another plane, maybe the result wouldn't be the same.

XyZspineZyX
12-02-2003, 07:40 AM
Today I shot down a Ju87B2 in a VOW mission with an I16-18. I used all my ammo, and had 581 hits on that plane. It was smoking from both wingroots when I ran out of ammo. All shooting was done from close range, .30 or closer (I use markings on reflector sight for range estimation). About 3 minutes after I disengaged I finally got the kill message. The rear gunner never did stop firing.

I just made a track,where two I-16-24's attack a stuka. You can see mg and cannon strikes all around the rear gunner,but he keeps on shooting back! That is some good armor in that B2....but isn't it the D models that had the armor?

XyZspineZyX
12-03-2003, 09:28 AM
To all this Hurricane's and Tie Fighter's pilots:

No problem. Do you need a soft stuka ? It's easy. Please, let us know when you arrive and we will show our "back" to you. We will also don't move and every time you hit us we will sound our Jerico's trompets. By other hand, if you are out of ammution we also can bail out from our plane. Let us know, please.

Rudel was lucky ? Without a leg ?

Seriuosly, I think you need practice... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
12-03-2003, 10:34 AM
Then tinner our stukas will be, then brave and skillfull pilots will fly them.

If our big birds became easyer to kill, we will work harder avoiding to be sighted, training our skills, acurracy and team-play, the thing that you can never change is the bravery and the skill of the pilots /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Stuka pilots don´t need to cry to have fun, we are proud fighters and allways do our best, and please don´t compare the IA vs human pilots, because in this game IA fly stuka in the same way that B17, and with NO 20mm wing-guns, NO sc1000 neither sc1800.

See you up there, and please, learn to fly before complaining.

Sorry for my english, pero es que hablo mejor el castellano /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Jokiller
Proud member of StG111

XyZspineZyX
12-03-2003, 10:48 AM
Picture is better than words:

http://webs.ono.com/usr027/jokiller2/batallita/10.jpg

XyZspineZyX
12-03-2003, 11:14 AM
LOL, I was going to tell that story, here I go:

THIS IS THE WAY WE STUKAS FLY:

the first thing to do is NEVER follow the shortest way to the target, because here is where the bad boys are waiting for us

http://webs.ono.com/usr027/jokiller2/batallita/01.jpg

once you arrive to the target destroy it accurately

http://webs.ono.com/usr027/jokiller2/batallita/02.jpg

http://webs.ono.com/usr027/jokiller2/batallita/04.jpg

When the bad boys appear, do NEVER fly straight, or you'll end like the others seen above http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif fly low, dogfight and support your comrades.

http://webs.ono.com/usr027/jokiller2/batallita/05.jpg

This red one went winchester, because it is hard to shoot at a hight-turning-low-flying-stg111 stuka, so once without ammo, he salutes.
Red pilots are also great guys.

http://webs.ono.com/usr027/jokiller2/batallita/06.jpg

But there is another one, he has read about how (easy it is) to kill a stuka and he is trying to follow the rules

http://webs.ono.com/usr027/jokiller2/batallita/07.jpg

just forgetting to check6

http://webs.ono.com/usr027/jokiller2/batallita/08.jpg

stukas are easy to kill...

http://webs.ono.com/usr027/jokiller2/batallita/09.jpg

http://webs.ono.com/usr027/jokiller2/batallita/10.jpg

at last we landed, one without fuel

http://webs.ono.com/usr027/jokiller2/batallita/11.jpg

and another with one wheel, doing my best

http://webs.ono.com/usr027/jokiller2/batallita/13.jpg

so please, don´t cry so much, and learn how to fly, or else go back to XvT http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


I love flying those birds
I am proud to fly them with StG111

StG111_Jokiller

(edited many times just to fing out how to finx the pictures)



Message Edited on 12/03/03 10:24AM by Stg111-Jokiller

Message Edited on 12/03/03 10:25AM by Stg111-Jokiller

Message Edited on 12/03/03 10:28AM by Stg111-Jokiller

Message Edited on 12/03/0310:31AM by Stg111-Jokiller

XyZspineZyX
12-03-2003, 11:18 AM
http://webs.ono.com/usr027/jokiller2/vef.zip

S!
StG111 Jokiller

Message Edited on 12/03/0310:32AM by Stg111-Jokiller