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View Full Version : The roles of SD-500 and SC-500



polkku
01-22-2004, 02:25 AM
In this game, the best german anti-tank bomb is SC-500 which in reality is ment for general explosive role. On the other hand SD-500 is here for soft targets and buildings. SD means something like "thick cased fragmentation" and in reality is supposed to be used against soft targets and semi anti-tank purposes. From the various sources that cought my attention, I have noticed that mostly the SD bombs (with the long nose detonator) were indeed used agaist tanks and not the SC (PC would be purely armor pearcing bomb?). Is it possible that the roles of these two have been mixed in this game?

Secondly I see that dropping 2xSC250 + 1xSC500 simultaneously has the same area of effect and does about the same damage than one SC-500. Only the "direct hit" area is few meters wider (I have tried it against tanks, artillery and vehicles). Please try destroying 4xT-34 in formation with D3 Stuka and you see that more than 4m miss is a total miss. I know, I have bombed a few in this game.
If I'm wrong about something, please correct me.

[This message was edited by polkku on Thu January 22 2004 at 11:44 PM.]

polkku
01-22-2004, 02:25 AM
In this game, the best german anti-tank bomb is SC-500 which in reality is ment for general explosive role. On the other hand SD-500 is here for soft targets and buildings. SD means something like "thick cased fragmentation" and in reality is supposed to be used against soft targets and semi anti-tank purposes. From the various sources that cought my attention, I have noticed that mostly the SD bombs (with the long nose detonator) were indeed used agaist tanks and not the SC (PC would be purely armor pearcing bomb?). Is it possible that the roles of these two have been mixed in this game?

Secondly I see that dropping 2xSC250 + 1xSC500 simultaneously has the same area of effect and does about the same damage than one SC-500. Only the "direct hit" area is few meters wider (I have tried it against tanks, artillery and vehicles). Please try destroying 4xT-34 in formation with D3 Stuka and you see that more than 4m miss is a total miss. I know, I have bombed a few in this game.
If I'm wrong about something, please correct me.

[This message was edited by polkku on Thu January 22 2004 at 11:44 PM.]

BBB_Hyperion
01-22-2004, 03:08 AM
I think its not the bombfragments alone but the explosion pressure that takes the tank out. Thats why it needs to be very close . If the distance in FB is right i dont know.

Regards,
Hyperion

polkku
01-22-2004, 04:15 AM
You are right Hyperion, the explosion pressure is a big part. But it seems strange that 2x250kg+500kg seems to have the same area of effect and pressure when dropped simultaneously than one 500kg bomb. As if the effects of the 250kg bombs would stay inside the effect of the 500kg bomb and not increase the total explosion pressure/area at all.

Concerning the effectivenes of SD vs. SC. The SC bombs burrowed to ground a bit before exploding, this reduced the AT capability and the area of effect. SD's had the long nose detonator which prevented the burrowing.

Enofinu
01-22-2004, 07:18 AM
Long nosed bombs were used to get better blast/fragment effect at the target. bomb loses much of its effect when it dive inside ground, most of the fragments fly only upwards from the explosion, same with blast effect. didnt germans use thick shelled bombs againt bunkers and other reinforced targets?
one 250kg thin shelld bomb sure takes out a tank, even if it wont hit the target.

Jippo01
01-22-2004, 12:30 PM
Yes. SD is a demolition bomb for bunkers and reinforcements. SC is general purpose.

Dinort stabs that cause the bomb to blow above ground could be used on either SC or SD bombs AFAIK.


-jippo

LeLv28 - Fighting for independency since 2002
http://www.lelv28.com

Falkster's Ju-88 fan site:
www.ju88.de.tf (http://www.ju88.de.tf)

Fillmore
01-22-2004, 12:49 PM
Since I first tried an SD500 I have been using it in preference to SC500 against tanks. I'm sure it's just becasue of initial success (first time I ever dropped an SD500 I got 2 tanks at once), as I haven't examined tracks to see which is more effective, but I just feel more confident with the SD500.

My experience with SC250 (as well as the Soviet bombs of the same weight) is that they have too small an area of effect to be of any use against real tanks.

DangerForward
01-22-2004, 06:30 PM
Are the AB500/250 bombs of any use against late war tanks? I've scored what look like hits quite a few times without any results. Seems like they're the least useful of the German bombs. The soft targets get taken out pretty well with the other types...

DangerForward

p1ngu666
01-22-2004, 07:33 PM
a miss is better with a long nose bomb, or whatever u wanna call it
itll explode that far from hte ground, giving u a circle of frag
we dont have these in fb http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
we need a decent german bomb link here http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

polkku
01-23-2004, 12:42 AM
We do have the long nosed bombs, they are the SD's which do nothing to heavier tanks if not a direct hit. And AB's are cluster bombs, they brake up in air, few seconds after you drop them and spread small 10kg bomblets, which are good for infantry and soft targets. I use them when bombing airfields. I think PC's, which are not in the game, were used against fortifications, heavy bunkers and ships. They were purely armor pearcing bombs.

But how about the problem of dropping two 250kg and one 500kg bomb to same spot (when dive bombing with a Ju87-D3), shouldn't the area of effect be larger than with only one 500kg bomb? It doesn't seem to be.

Fillmore
01-23-2004, 01:13 AM
SD500 kills heavy tanks without direct hit. Kills light tanks from quite aways.

BBB_Hyperion
01-23-2004, 03:11 AM
sc50s kill heavy tanks too you need to place em on their back.

For the Multiple Bombs effect how much energy is needed to break a tank structure and at which places the effect is best leads to the question is it modeled this way i doubt .)


Regards,
Hyperion

Fillmore
01-23-2004, 06:07 AM
Just did some bomb testing with lots of tanks and traincars spaced evenly on concrete airfield. There is rectangular gridlike arrangement on concrete spawn areas on runway which I used. I set up a mess of IS2 tanks in one area M4s in another T60s etc. I left one rectangle length between each tank front to back in each row and one rectangle width between each row, with the tanks in each row offset by 1 rectangle. Each rectangle is about 2x1 (which is what the IS2s are they fit exactly in a rectangle).

!---!---!
--!---!--
!---!---!

A single SC500 killed 6 IS2s, another SC500 killed 5 M4s (entire patch of like 64 T60s destroyed by 1 bomb, same with traincars and 25mm AAA). SD500 seemed exactly the same. If anything it looks like tanks are more likely to be killed by an explosion in front than behind (one M4 had its front facing the bombblast and was destroyed, another one had its rear facing and was a bit closer even, but was not destroyed).

AB bombs are bugged and not working at all in 1.22, I will post that and explain in a new topic, don't bother using them, not even soft targets like traincars are destroyed from direct hits with submunitions.

MiloMorai
01-23-2004, 07:44 AM
Someone asked for info on WW2 German bombs?? Here you go.

'edit'

opps, picked the wrong one. Thanks Jippo.

for more LW info http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/index.html

Long live the Horse Clans.

[This message was edited by MiloMorai on Fri January 23 2004 at 07:51 AM.]

Jippo01
01-23-2004, 08:32 AM
Learn about German bombs here:

http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/bombs.html


-jippo

LeLv28 - Fighting for independency since 2002
http://www.lelv28.com

Falkster's Ju-88 fan site:
www.ju88.de.tf (http://www.ju88.de.tf)

WWSensei
01-23-2004, 02:29 PM
Other bugs I've noticed in the Stuka:

Carry an SC-500 with two SC-250s. Drop SC-250s wait, and then drop the SC500. The SC500 disappears and never hits. It ceases to exist. It might explain why dropping a full load does the same damage as a single SC-500--because the third bomb disappears. It was a bug in 1.21 as well.

Also, blast damage/radius from bombs online are about half that as offline.

Fillmore
01-23-2004, 03:08 PM
"Also, blast damage/radius from bombs online are about half that as offline."

Really? I did all my tests online, so I guess i'll have to convert to an offline mission and try it there. I'm guessing that this is just a myth, but we'll see.

A.K.Davis
01-23-2004, 06:51 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by polkku:
We do have the long nosed bombs, they are the SD's which do nothing to heavier tanks if not a direct hit. And AB's are cluster bombs, they brake up in air, few seconds after you drop them and spread small 10kg bomblets, which are good for infantry and soft targets. I use them when bombing airfields. I think PC's, which are not in the game, were used against fortifications, heavy bunkers and ships. They were purely armor pearcing bombs.

But how about the problem of dropping two 250kg and one 500kg bomb to same spot (when dive bombing with a Ju87-D3), shouldn't the area of effect be larger than with only one 500kg bomb? It doesn't seem to be.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why would you put a nose spike on a semi-armor piercing bomb (SD)? Isn't the idea that it penetrates, and then explodes?

--AKD

http://www.flyingpug.com/pugline2.jpg

polkku
01-24-2004, 01:41 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by A.K.Davis:
Why would you put a nose spike on a semi-armor piercing bomb (SD)? Isn't the idea that it penetrates, and then explodes?
--------------
SD is a thick cased fragmentation bomb (I'm not sure of the various thickness models of the SD's). I think the idea is for the big fragments to cripple or destroy the tank. So it is important that it explodes above the ground. If the fragmnents do nothing, some 40% of its weight is explosives. SD-500 sounds pretty nasty thing to me.

About the disappearing SC500 in a fully loaded Stuka D3. I often drop the 250's and the 500kg separately to spread the effect. I do this in the same dive, the 250's in 1000m, aim to another target and drop the 500kg in 600m. Of course the targets have to be very close to each other, but all the bombs seem to go off.

Jippo01
01-24-2004, 05:07 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by polkku:
[SD is a thick cased fragmentation bomb (I'm not sure of the various thickness models of the SD's). I think the idea is for the big fragments to cripple or destroy the tank. So it is important that it explodes above the ground. If the fragmnents do nothing, some 40% of its weight is explosives. SD-500 sounds pretty nasty thing to me.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


No you got it wrong. Thick walled bombs are designed to penetrate into ground (or ship, or ...) before exploding, that is why they have thick walls.

Also shrapnel cannot destroy tanks(pressure does), so in those terms it doesn't matter much if you use SD or SC for the job. SC has more explosives and that could give it the edge

For armored targets like bunkers and warships penetrating bombs are good, while SC is better for targets like railway yards, troops, airfields, etc...

Tanks are somewhere in the middle and it shouldn't matter much which one, SD or SC, is used.


-jippo

LeLv28 - Fighting for independency since 2002
http://www.lelv28.com

Falkster's Ju-88 fan site:
www.ju88.de.tf (http://www.ju88.de.tf)

polkku
01-24-2004, 06:06 AM
After some digging, I find you right Jippo, as always. SD is infact "SD = SPRENGBOMBE DICKWANDIG (thick cased semi-armour piercing)". What model of SD do we have in this game if we have fragmentation SD? At warbirds it says "Fragmentation" after the SD bombs. I'm not an expert of bombs and this fragmentation bomb whics is supposed to penetrate through ship armor or fort armor and explode into fragments is new to me, like most of the bombs. Also in the SD of the game we have the long detonator in the nose. And now some say that the fragmentation bomb is more effective against tanks than the SC which has more explosive in it. I'm confused now. Luckily we have only SC's to choose from in Ju87-D3 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

JG53-Falkster
01-24-2004, 06:41 AM
test

Jippo01
01-24-2004, 08:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by polkku:
After some digging, I find you right Jippo, as always. SD is infact "SD = SPRENGBOMBE DICKWANDIG (thick cased semi-armour piercing)". What model of SD do we have in this game if we have fragmentation SD? At warbirds it says "Fragmentation" after the SD bombs. I'm not an expert of bombs and this fragmentation bomb whics is supposed to penetrate through ship armor or fort armor and explode into fragments is new to me, like most of the bombs. Also in the SD of the game we have the long detonator in the nose. And now some say that the fragmentation bomb is more effective against tanks than the SC which has more explosive in it. I'm confused now. Luckily we have only SC's to choose from in Ju87-D3 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Mrs. jippo is always right, not me. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I think the fragmentation text only means the basic means of effect for the bomb. All bombs do fragment on explosion anyway, so we could even call all bombs fragmentation bombs.

Also the words used for different bombs in different languages may cause some more confusion.

But basic WW2 general purpose fragmentation bomb contains about 50/50 steel casing and explosive measured in weight. Armor piercing bombs have even 85/15 steel/explosive to allow them to punch through concrete or armor before exploding. Everything else is in between SD is something we could call penetrating general purpose bomb.

Look for the steel/explosive ratio to determine wether the bomb is GP or AP.

I haven't noticed any nose spikes in the bombs in FB, so I cannot comment on that nor do I know what type of SD bombs in FB are.


-jippo

LeLv28 - Fighting for independency since 2002
http://www.lelv28.com

Falkster's Ju-88 fan site:
www.ju88.de.tf (http://www.ju88.de.tf)

MiloMorai
01-24-2004, 08:05 AM
The link you posted and I mis-posted says:

SD 500, SD 500 A and SD 500 E
Over-All Length: 82.0 in.
Body Length: 54.0 in.
Body Diameter: 17.5 in.
Wall Thickness: 1.0 in. wall; point 5.0 in.
Tail Length: 35.5 in.
Tail Width: 18 in.
Total Weight: 535 kg
Filling: Amatol 60/40; TNT And Wax
Weight Of Filling: 200 kg. approx
Charge/Weight Ratio: 37%
Fuzing: 5 Series

PD 500
Over-All Length: 6 ft. 11 in.
Body Length: 4 ft. 6.5 in.
Body Diameter: 11.0 in.
Wall Thickness: N/A
Tail Length: 2 ft. 6.5 in.
Tail Width: 1 ft. 11 in.
Total Weight: 500 kg. approx.
Filling: RDX/Wax/A1. The filling, designated 109, has previously been found in PC 1800 RS, associated with a nose filling block of nitroguanidine.
Weight Of Filling: 32 kg.
Charge/Weight Ratio: 6.4%
Fuzing: AZ (49) P5

SC 500 GRADE III (K, L2, & J)
Type: General Purpose

Over-all Length:
Body Length:
Body Diameter:
Wall Thickness (In):

Tail Length:
Tail Width:
Weight Of Filling:
Charge/Weight Ratio:
Total Weight:

K
80 in.
55.7 in.
18 in.
0.3 wall to
3.2 in nose
29.5 in.
25.0 in.
220 kg.
44%
500 kg.

L2
80 in.
58.5 in.
18 in.
0.3 wall to
3.2 in nose
29.5 in.
25.0 in.
220 kg.
44%
500 kg.

J
80 in.
57 in.
18 in.
0.3 wall to
3.2 in nose
29.5 in.
25.0 in.
220 kg.
44%
500 kg.

Filling: 40/60 or 50/50 Amatol TNT, trialene. Bombs recovered with Trialen filling have cylindrical paper wrapped pellets 1-15/16 in. in length and diameter forming

Fuzing: 28B2 Extension Cap III, AZ25B and AZ (55).

PC 500 (D500 E and D500 L)
Over-All Length: (E) 69.2 in.; (L) 78.8 in.
Body Length: (E) 42.3 in.; (L) 53.8 in.
Body Diameter: (E) 15.6 in.; (L) 15.0 in.
Wall Thickness:
(E) 1.4 in. wall, 9.0 in. point
(L) 0.9 in. wall, 9.3 in. point
Tail Length: (E) 27.5 in.; (L) 30.5 in.
Tail Width: (E) 15.5 in.; (L) 16.0 in.
Total Weight: 1,703 kg
Filling:
(E) Cast TNT, Amatol 60/40; TNT and wax
(L) Cast TNT, TNT and Wax
Weight Of Filling: (E) 75 kg.; (L) 78 kg.
Charge/Weight Ratio: (E) 14%; (L) 19%
Fuzing: (E) 5 series; (L) 35



Long live the Horse Clans.

Jippo01
01-24-2004, 12:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MiloMorai:
opps, picked the wrong one. Thanks Jippo.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


NP.

Care to pop in here to see if you have a comment or two to make:

http://www.freebb.de/cgi-bin/freebb/foren/F_0593/cutecast.pl?session=BHJKnavuoTpXH3OLpDjmA0akH4&forum=6&thread=39&page=1#4

You seem to have a great deal of sources under your thumb, so please contribute by combing the texts through for errors.


Thanks.


-jippo


Ps. also other who feel they can help, please go ahead! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif



LeLv28 - Fighting for independency since 2002
http://www.lelv28.com

Falkster's Ju-88 fan site:
www.ju88.de.tf (http://www.ju88.de.tf)

Gunner_361st
01-24-2004, 02:42 PM
Hey gents. Considering the conversation is leaning towards bomb effectiveness against tanks, does anyone know if in Forgotten Battles is it possible to blow the treads off tanks?

That'd sure be neat to do, especially with a gaggle of .50 or 20mm cannon fire.

Timochka
01-25-2004, 02:28 AM
Hmmm, I always thought only SC-bombs had the long noses (stabo), usually found with SC-50 bombs. Just look at most pics of stukas in late war stages, it seems more often than not the wing bombs had stabos fitted. I've seen a SC250 stabo bomb at the Tikkakoski museum in Finland IIRC.

To the Finns: there was something written about LW bombs at Lent¤j¤n N¤k¶kulma 4 book.

A quick translation for the non-finnish people http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ,the above mentioned book page 24: "German manifactured bombs (used by FAF) were mostly of types SC and SD, where the number indicated bomb weight and the letters the degree of charge, i.e. the explosive content mass to total weight ratio. SC, the general purpose bomb, which by changing the type of detonator could be used either as fragmentation or mine bombs had 50% of explosive content. The deeper penetrating SD-minebombs had an explosive content of 30%."

JG53-Falkster
01-25-2004, 04:13 AM
So my dears, here the answers to your questions.

Something additional to the text: The SD was a fragment bomb against soft targets, but the bomb was also used as Minen Bombe like SC bombs but against multi-storey buildings because, the bomb is more thick-walled.

Overall we can say the modelling of german bombs and stuff is very poor, i think oleg has a big leak of informations about it.

Many bombs and rockets do not have the effect, like in real......and are modeled wrong.

For example the AB bombs, we heave no idea whats inthere (cans with food?)
We know just AB500 but normaly this bomb is marked for example like this:

AB500-1
-------
74-SD-4 HL

So we know ah its AB 500 first serie with 74 SD- 4 Hohlladung.
The AB500 for example you can fill with 8 different bombs.....against different targets.


http://www.jagdgeschwader53.flugzeugwerk.net/ju88/varia/bombe1.jpg

http://www.jagdgeschwader53.flugzeugwerk.net/ju88/varia/bombe2.jpg

Here a Luftwaffe dokument, which bomb for what an other good informations.......
http://www.jagdgeschwader53.flugzeugwerk.net/ju88/varia/bombe3.jpg
http://www.jagdgeschwader53.flugzeugwerk.net/ju88/varia/bombe4.jpg

MiloMorai
01-25-2004, 06:17 AM
Great charts Falkster, thanks.

Sorry, but what is Mindesthohe? thanks



Long live the Horse Clans.

Jippo01
01-25-2004, 06:29 AM
Minimum safe dropping altitude.


-jippo

LeLv28 - Fighting for independency since 2002
http://www.lelv28.com

Falkster's Ju-88 fan site:
www.ju88.de.tf (http://www.ju88.de.tf)

MiloMorai
01-25-2004, 07:25 AM
So one can use that number as a rough estimate for the damage radius from the explosion. (not the lethal radius, though)



Long live the Horse Clans.

Jippo01
01-25-2004, 07:53 AM
Not as lethal no, but as a distance where damage could be inflicted. But according to eg. Rudel he dropped his 1000kg egg at far less than 1000m when he attacked Marat.

One book I have lists as dangerous distance of pressure effects for human 30 metres with 50kg bombs and 150 metres with 1000kg bombs. Shrapnel on the other hand could fly for hundreds of meters, but of course as the distance grows the individual shrapnel get further apart and loose energy and rapidly become inefficient.


-jippo

LeLv28 - Fighting for independency since 2002
http://www.lelv28.com

Falkster's Ju-88 fan site:
www.ju88.de.tf (http://www.ju88.de.tf)

BBB_Hyperion
01-25-2004, 09:02 AM
Hmm seems the SC50 is rather weak in FB after this document. Thats about 25 KG Explosives per Bomb .

Is this Calculation correct ?

Peak Overpressure in distance Rsc
Delta p = 808*ap*A/((B)*(C)*(D))^(1/2)

A =(1+ (Rsc/4.5)^2)
B =(1+(Rsc/0.048)^2)
C =(1+(Rsc/0.32)^2)
D =(1+(Rsc/1.35)^2)

Rsc = r*(p/p0*1/Y)^(1/3)

Y = TNT in KG
ap airpressure
p0 air density at ground level
p ambient air density

Parked aircraft need about 18 to 22 Kpascal

Air defense radar, road and rail
mobile systems
100
Kpascal

Reinforced concrete structures
(aircraft shelter, command bunker)
300 Kpascal

I used this calculation with
Normairdensity = 1.2258 kg/m³
Normpressure = 101325 Pa

and for a sc50 with 25 kg TNT it came out 18 m distance max to get 20 Kpascal to destroy the plane.

When someone has Kpascal values to destroy tanks i could calculate this too.

Kpascal Values are from here http://www.inesap.org/bulletin17/bul17art17.htm

Used Formulars Jürgen Altmann"SDI for Europe?" Frankfurt 1998, pages 37-38

Regards,
Hyperion

Willey
01-26-2004, 10:32 AM
Interesting math, Hyperion. That just proves what I always thought. Those bombs badly lack an noticable effect within a certain blast radius. Within 10m radius, some cars still aren't destroyed by a 500kg bomb... really funny. Those WGr.21 are also a nice example. They are approx. 50kg of explosives! But they are worse than a SC-50 DOH http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif. Just a hint: in FB 1.0, the newly introduced US explosives (500lb, 1000lb and Bazooka rockets) looked quite good. They really had some "splash damage". Too bad they dumbed them down to the inlogical level of all the other bombs... I also remeber when they failed to defuse the 500lb bomb in Salzburg (Austria) last year. Windows were broken in a 500m radius (!), and in a 50m radius there were noticable damages. This bomb was at least 3m below ground level in some kind of a big tube they made around it for safety. When compared to the FB bombs, the FAB5000 seems to be the only one that is able to inflict so much damage.

Callemangan
01-27-2004, 01:31 PM
You should note that the German text above does not mention tank targets. That is because bombs were not effective against them. Bombing tanks is what you do if you got nothing else; a desperation tactic at best.
So the very idea of using bombs against tanks, and expecting repeated success(!), is wrong.
And for using dive bombing against tanks...! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
Ok, if you divebomb a 3,500 ton Oil tanker, moving at a speed of 6 knots, you can expect hits, but hitting a tanks?!
No way.
Np wonder all nations that could went over to use high calibrecannons and rockets for this work.

Those stand-off rods seen on pictures have nothing to do with attacking tanks, but is used for attacking infantry.
By having the bombs explode a bit over the ground the lethality is increased (shrapnels you know).
The German antipersonel mine ("S-mine", IIRC)
sprung up a meter in the air when it triggered
to get just that effect. (And it was greatly feared.)

BBB_Hyperion
01-27-2004, 02:04 PM
So how much explosion Energy is needed to take out a tank of type xy ?

Why does taking out Tanks with Bombs work in FB then anyway (and i took quite some out).

Thats what we try to find out here as well why the bombblastradius seem to be too small for softer targets. Always open to founded answers.

Regards,
Hyperion

Enofinu
01-28-2004, 08:30 AM
well, actually fragments can penetrate tank armor. depends of course the thickness of armor, size of the fragment and speed of the fragment (distance of explosion)

BMP 1 can be penetrated by >150g fragments if the bomb explodes close enough. at least thats what the chief said at army :P

BBB_Hyperion
01-28-2004, 09:48 AM
So we need a Statistic function how much fragments of >150g exist. And how much of them fly into right direction. Also the BMP (troop carrier) version and and Amor
Type may not be a valid ww2 tank equivalent.

I still think the pressure is the main event in the tank issue while for soft targets its fragments and pressure.

http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/tankbusters.htm

Here we get an idea that for
the minimum performance should be a penetration of 100 mm / 300 m / 90 degrees, and 60 mm / 300m / 60 degrees

If conventional steel shot were used, then a gun as big as the BK 5 would be required to give such performance.

Thats for steel 718,000 Joules.

Also the info is very limited. We can assume that the Energy needed is lower when closer to the tank . When we take the explosion Energy and the statistics of a Fragement > 150 g .
As well the distance and time to accelerate the Fragment. That would be a rare event i think .

But what is needed is the max overpressure a tank type can stand and how long and at what position.

Regards,
Hyperion

Jippo01
01-28-2004, 09:52 AM
BMP is very lightly armored vehicle everywhere else than the front.


-jippo

LeLv28 - Fighting for independency since 2002
http://www.lelv28.com

Falkster's Ju-88 fan site:
www.ju88.de.tf (http://www.ju88.de.tf)

StG77_Stuka
01-28-2004, 12:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by polkku:
After some digging, I find you right Jippo, as always. SD is infact "SD = SPRENGBOMBE DICKWANDIG (thick cased semi-armour piercing)". What model of SD do we have in this game if we have fragmentation SD? At warbirds it says "Fragmentation" after the SD bombs. I'm not an expert of bombs and this fragmentation bomb whics is supposed to penetrate through ship armor or fort armor and explode into fragments is new to me, like most of the bombs. Also in the SD of the game we have the long detonator in the nose. And now some say that the fragmentation bomb is more effective against tanks than the SC which has more explosive in it. I'm confused now. Luckily we have only SC's to choose from in Ju87-D3 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What ever their intended purpose in the real world , the SD seems the best choice when your unsure of its final destination. Anyone know why the Ju87D-3 doesn't have the SD's?

Callemangan
01-28-2004, 01:15 PM
Quite often one can read in fiction that US clusterbombs take out T-72 and other WP tanks.
But it seems like fiction to mehttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif unless a direct hit is scored.

Question: wouldn't the armour protect a crew from shock waves? We are talking about energy here, and armour is basically a means to absorb and neutralise energy.

Jippo01
01-28-2004, 02:38 PM
I have not seen any definite studies on the subject but I think it is clear that armor reduces the effect of the pressure blast. It is short in duration and even though tanks are not airtight the air is only let in very small openings like visions slits etc..

But I have also read about tank crews getting nose and ear bleed(pressure effect/sound) from non penetrating AP hits. Also getting bone fractures is possible from non penetrating HE hits (limb touching armor while hit). It seems that the steel of the armor serves as a good mediating subject for shocks and maybe also for shockwaves.

My guess would be that small bombs require a direct hit while larger, 250kg and up, bombs might be destructive from couple of dozen metres away. I should thik that for very large bombs the distance is quite a bit longer, though.

But in the end, all above is just reasoning and guessing ....


-jippo

LeLv28 - Fighting for independency since 2002
http://www.lelv28.com

Falkster's Ju-88 fan site:
www.ju88.de.tf (http://www.ju88.de.tf)

JG53-Falkster
01-29-2004, 09:58 AM
Jippo ist not all reasoning and guessing http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Red text short translated:

SC50 were not effectiv against armored cars and tanks

Also big bombs like SC250 were not so good against tanks.

~~When a SC250 detonated in a distance of 5 meters (could also be more) the test animals in T34 sherman and churchill tank died. T-34 got fire because the fuel in engine, the churchill tank was totaly destroyed....

The SD-4HL were very well against tanks
(in real not in il2FB)

In a distance of 5 meters i think the wheels and crawlers are completly destroyed.....
http://www.jagdgeschwader53.flugzeugwerk.net/ju88/varia/bomb.jpg

Jippo01
01-30-2004, 02:18 PM
Very interesting document! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


-jippo

LeLv28 - Fighting for independency since 2002
http://www.lelv28.com

Falkster's Ju-88 fan site:
www.ju88.de.tf (http://www.ju88.de.tf)