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View Full Version : The Design Problem behind Haven



We.the.North
06-20-2014, 02:01 AM
Lets have a look at Haven Abilities :

#1 : Retribution

At least 1/3 of the creatures are immune to retaliation (shooters).

While we're on the subject of retaliation damage : Haven creatures "value points" are often spent on retaliation power, meaning they have less "value points" available for health or damage. In a game where most of the time, your creature dont get to retaliate before dying due the melee/flier attacking creature doing the "last hit" after the Haven creature is weakened by a shooter or a spell, this is extremely bad.

#2 : Heal

This ability should have always been "at the end of the turn, Heal X". As it stands now, the creature(s) you want to heal will most of the time just die before the start of your next turn, leaving you with an extremely weak creature most of the time and nothing to heal.

#3 : Regenerate

As with my previous comment about retaliation not happening, regenerate is also not happening. Wasting valuable "value points" on some useless ability.

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With those mediocre abilities, it's no wonder Haven is doing so poorly right now. All it can do is stall a game, but you wont push through anything, create opportunity or clear a lane in order to get some damage through. Haven is predictable and slow.

I would like to see more cards like Wolf Captain promoting "team spirit". Emperor's Wall is a great addition, but "retribution" should already be doing just that. Heal should happen the turn a heal creature is played. Haven also needs more way to heal the hero, other factions have so many ways to deal direct damage.

Something is wrong with Haven. So far, that angel spoiled in Griffon Bane solves nothing, especially in a meta where the only ongoing spells being played are used during the OTK turn.

I'm still hoping for MUCH better meta changing cards for Haven.

Portios86
06-20-2014, 03:19 AM
Iīm also hoping for a much better meta for haven, as a haven/academy player. Your points are right but not all of them.
Protector angel is going to be very nice vs mass rage and inmolation decks, but thatīs only a side effect, his ability is focused on fighting dark magic decks with enthralls. Tell me thatīs a weak thing.
You wonīt be getting your creature back for free though, you will need to play that creature again. Sadly, wither and other ongoing spells arenīt played but actualy, those angels are really helpful.

The new light spell is going to help. Not a great spell though, and as you, I still hope for a lot more, but those cards were a very nice start.

retribution, healing and regenerate.

Those abilities are almost removed from standard. If im not wrong, we have griffin battle priest as healer, wolf praetorian as retribution guy, and no regeneration. Best mending cards were removed too, chosen of Elrath and oasis (both decent, specially this last one, but just decent).

They also removed some kind of "guard", melee guard.

We actually have room for better version of those abilities or cards, this is the time to do it. Remove those abilities and create new ones or make better cards with them.

Btw, this abilities doesnīt work well because:

-Retribution: creatures with retribution should have inmune to retaliation. Wolf praetorian usually dies fighting the enemy melee (which is blocking and using his own retaliation) or eating shots. Now give them inmune to ret, range reflect, ranged guard, etc... one of those, it could work.

-Heal: It doesnīt work, not only because it heals at the beggining of turn, but also because it doesnīt heal himself and/or doesnīt do damage to fight properly. Now take battle priest remove one retaliation point and give him +1 attack damage. Now it works. OP? I donīt know and donīt care right now.

-Regenerate: really nice ability, why doesnīt work? Seraphim is a worse fighter than vampire, and itīs more expensive. Why? No inmune to retaliation, not very high regen value. To make it work, give them better hp value or inmune to retaliation, just one of these things. Suddenly it works.

I donīt think those abilities are bad design or weak, but the cards are usually weak or simply bad, thatīs all.

We also have combat guard which is awesome but, again, the creature is bad ( 1/2/6 at that cost? ) and nothing new.

Other abilities we have are income, which isnīt very good right now without resource denial or rushy creatures, preemptive strike on a unique creature and instant healing in another unique, and the "when full hp" ability, which makes creatures decent, not good, just decent when full hp and bad when not full hp (crusader watchmen is the biggest joke you can find in the "playable" category...)

Lets see what do they bring with griffin bane, I just canīt wait. Looking at the new angel I have some hopes. I will rest if I see a 2 attack cheap shoter (expert marksmen should be in standard, or better, a generic 2/0/4 shoter), or well, something as good as that for 2 drop, we also could need better 3 drops.

Lastly, I could think in a ton of funny and great haven new abilities, just like everyone else here. This is mostly because there is a lot of room for haven improvements.

hyperhop
06-24-2014, 02:39 AM
I agree that Haven still needs a rethink. I think more units in Haven should be able to force the enemy to lose "Immune to Retaliation".

And I do think healing needs some more thought. Portio68 might be right about healing happening at the end of the turn.

HighLanderPony
06-24-2014, 08:16 AM
I think Emperor's Wall (especially with Falcon Marksman) was a step in the right direction. The combo feels really solid.

I also like Shrine of Elrath, makes some cards really 'sustainable'.

So I feel the buildings helped. Then again, I'm not really into the meta. I hope in GB, they create more fun synergies like the ones I mentioned, instead of just straight up buffing Haven, or removing some stuff.

MoritzBradtke
06-25-2014, 04:47 PM
I think Emperor's Wall (especially with Falcon Marksman) was a step in the right direction. The combo feels really solid.

I also like Shrine of Elrath, makes some cards really 'sustainable'.

So I feel the buildings helped. Then again, I'm not really into the meta. I hope in GB, they create more fun synergies like the ones I mentioned, instead of just straight up buffing Haven, or removing some stuff.

emperator wall is nice but didnt help in the end, People just Play around it or soulreaver, altar it and with so much dmg on the other side and only weak griffin battle priests and imperial guard to protect your hero, ure dead pretty quick... i hope for alot improvements because there is ALOT they have to fix, not only giving us something in return for wolf captain what didnt happen yet but also giving us more Combo Cards to make the heart of nightmare Cards playable, heaven was completly left behind in HON, we got nothing and lost our key Card while other faction got a buff and im talking about Standard of course

fr33noob
06-28-2014, 04:02 PM
I acutally like defensive strats, it can be really fun when done right.
I remember a few games where you had these type of factions and the result would involve around careful "control" strategies.
Half the creatures in this game are immune to retaliation, there in lies your problem. Simply making creatures that remove X damage to creature beside X creature can just make the game prolonged and annoying.
Not to mention this game revolves around a lot of 1 card removals. How do you keep defensive monsters when you can just remove them via means outside combat?

One thing i love about this game is that you have things like walls and towers. Imagine if you had turrets like creatures.(ability) Randomly does 2-3 damage spread amongst creatures(attack anywhere), (cannot attack has 0 attack so saps don't affect) HP 5. You could then try to keep this creature safe. Cost 3. Have more than one of these on the board and you have a slight gamble factor, making it fun and a somewhat defensive strategy. The player has no real control over it so they can't abuse it but at the same time if the enemy leaves it there for too long, it will hurt them over time. Also moving it around would be funny too, then let its ability roll although that might be op.

With a cost of 3, most removals cost more than 3 so it would be worth if they spent removal on this.

Edit: I'm just spit balling really,I don't know what haven needs but i do know that defensive strats are a bit more satisfying with random elements...like a bit of gambling factors but calculated gambles as well as surrounding it in defense.

What do you guys reckon?

Upon further ramblings, you could have another similar creature, that does a similar thing with no attack but what it does is give a buff to one creature per turn, for that turn only of 2 extra attack. Combo card. SO, it activates it passive each turn and you get to choose what creature receive the two damage extra for that turn. Cost 3.
Like that cost, less than removal. 0 attack, so crippling doesn't effect. only to the monster being buffed. Obviously the buff is removed after turn.

HighLanderPony
06-29-2014, 12:17 AM
Maybe buildings could have HP, or hit counters (like destroyed after X number of 'destroy buildings' card played on it... that would change the text on those cards, too). The setup required to get a building with a creature in it going is I feel a bit too slow compared to how easy it is to just bounce or remove the creature or outright destroy the building.

Then again, we could just wait for what happens in the expansion.

Alamand
07-01-2014, 01:15 AM
I think their single biggest mistake with haven (well, not counting butchering light magic) in BS2 was removing Wolf Guard. If you're going to focus a faction on a mechanic as weak as retaliation you could at least let them keep one of the few cards good for that strategy. The other factions even got to keep their wall creature or got even better ones.

If retalitation is ever going to work as a faction gimmick then they need to start giving haven a lot more cards like hellfire maniac and hellfire bloater. Cards that actually do something when they're attacked besides roll over and die, and ways to force the enemy into bad attacks.

S9TF1
07-01-2014, 10:16 AM
If retalitation is ever going to work as a faction gimmick then they need to start giving haven a lot more cards like hellfire maniac and hellfire bloater. Cards that actually do something when they're attacked besides roll over and die, and ways to force the enemy into bad attacks.

Make this a Light spell and I'm sold.

Blinding Light
Cost: 2 requisition
Requirements: 4 magic

Target creature gains Berserk and loses Immune to Retaliation. Whenever a friendly Priest enters the battleground, if Blinding Light is in your graveyard then take it and put it into your hand.

czwartek22
07-01-2014, 10:42 AM
Make this a Light spell and I'm sold.

Blinding Light
Cost: 2 requisition
Requirements: 4 magic

Target creature gains Berserk and loses Immune to Retaliation. Whenever a friendly Priest enters the battleground, if Blinding Light is in your graveyard then take it and put it into your hand.

That would be a really good card, well balanced and flavorful. I'm on board!

MoritzBradtke
07-01-2014, 11:51 AM
Make this a Light spell and I'm sold.

Blinding Light
Cost: 2 requisition
Requirements: 4 magic

Target creature gains Berserk and loses Immune to Retaliation. Whenever a friendly Priest enters the battleground, if Blinding Light is in your graveyard then take it and put it into your hand.

Omg, awesome idea, how did u come up with this, not only u make ret usefull also u make weak priest cards like griffin battle priests or healing Sister actually usefull, vrry goos idea here (:

Alamand
07-02-2014, 07:03 AM
Make this a Light spell and I'm sold.

Blinding Light
Cost: 2 requisition
Requirements: 4 magic

Target creature gains Berserk and loses Immune to Retaliation. Whenever a friendly Priest enters the battleground, if Blinding Light is in your graveyard then take it and put it into your hand.

I think 4 magic is a bit high for a card that's just Fiery Rage without the potential upside of boosting attack, 2 resources 2 magic should be good enough since it works for fiery rage. Also priest doesn't really work for Haven since there aren't that many playable ones. I was thinking make it angel instead but it looks like that's not much better, so maybe make it angel or priest.

Personally my favorite idea for giving haven berserk effects would be a low cost shooter with no retaliation of it's own but have it give all enemy creatures in the row berserk like hellfire maniac does. That way it has a powerful effect but needs a meatshield to really make use of it, and prevents it from being combo'd with the really strong retaliation cards like falcon marksman on an imperial wall.

malkorion
07-02-2014, 07:13 AM
To me, a spell called Blinding Light would do the following thing: creatures your opponent controls cannot attack, and cannot retaliate until your next turn.

cucu99
07-02-2014, 07:47 AM
Make this a Light spell and I'm sold.

Blinding Light
Cost: 2 requisition
Requirements: 4 magic

Target creature gains Berserk and loses Immune to Retaliation. Whenever a friendly Priest enters the battleground, if Blinding Light is in your graveyard then take it and put it into your hand.

Berserk is fire ability. I doubt if we will see in light.
+ coming back from graveyard is huge ability which gives you good card advantage. Without that should cost 2 imo with coming back at least 3-4 (more likely 3 because we have few priest only in haven but we need to think about later expansions). Anyway like your idea.

S9TF1
07-04-2014, 10:48 AM
Well, in light (pun intended :p) of the newly revealed Haven creatures in GB, we can now safely assume that retaliation-centrered creatures are being progressively phased out. Though I understand the reasons behind this decision, I can't say I'm particularly enthusiastic about Haven losing their faction's defense-oriented trademark.:(

That being said, Griffin Bane, for obvious reasons, is focused on the Griffin Duchy. Retribution and all Wolf-related troops were introduced via another Haven subfaction, which is the Wolf Duchy. So there is still room for improvement, even if we'll have to wait for another expansion first.:cool: