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mgz2009
06-11-2014, 04:06 PM
I only found out today about their decision to NOT include Fem Assassins as its too much work.
I must admit im quite shocked with all the lame excuses they have came up with in regards to the whole situation. Maybe im biased as im a girl but seriously everyone on Twitter and my Facebook is hellbent on destroying your rep but maybe you already have done that LOL.
Honestly I thought you were a good fair company but all you care about is how your game looks in regards to what gamers actually want in a game.
Let the hate begin im expecting it

SpiritOfNevaeh
06-11-2014, 04:08 PM
Not my petition, but apparently someone has started a petition that I thought you guys might be interesting in discussing as a topic as well:

"Okay so following these articles in which Ubisoft defended their lack of representation in the upcoming Assassin’s Creed: Unity with “a female character…would have doubled the work”, I am starting a petition for people to express their discontent with the lack of representation of females and POC in the four-protagonist assassin line-up.

If it reaches enough signatures, I will print it out and attach it to a letter which will illustrate to Ubisoft that their fans are not happy with their current lack of interest in representing anyone but the white male gamer. Nothing may happen, they may not even read it, but this is the only chance we have.Thank you so much for your support."

The Petition is Here for Anyone Interested. (http://www.change.org/en-GB/petitions/ubisoft-discontent-at-lack-of-representation-in-ac-unity-protagonists) (This started around yesterday and already has 1,400+ supporters)

"This petition has been created to express the disappointment of Ubisoft fans at the lack of representation of people of colour and females in the four-protagonist line-up of the upcoming Assassin's Creed: Unity. We believe that the Assassin's Creed series, a franchise with infinite scope, does not reflect the needs of its demographic well enough: the lack of a female character has been referred to as "unfortunate, but...a reality of game development", and the possibility of an ethnic minority protagonist seems to have not even been breached. Representation is important, and in a game which boasts 5000 NPCs, this is not good enough."

"This just goes to show how Ubisoft doesn’t want to put that much effort into their franchise anymore."

Let me know what you guys think.

Megas_Doux
06-11-2014, 04:11 PM
Not this again.....

http://www.nooooooooooooooo.com/vader.jpg

deskp
06-11-2014, 04:16 PM
you don't understand the game. there are no other characters..... Go play liberation and shut up till you stop being so ignorant.

"Because when you're playing co-op, everybody is Arno. Everybody else is another assassin. So if we're all playing together, you will be Arno on your screen. We will have our custom gear, but our faces will just be other assassins."

DinoSteve1
06-11-2014, 04:17 PM
Too much work is a great reason, can you imagine the stuff they have yet to do before the game goes gold and how much extra that work would cost?

DinoSteve1
06-11-2014, 04:22 PM
Ugh people are morons.

adventurewomen
06-11-2014, 04:24 PM
We don't know much about Unity yet or even the storyline we might have another female assassin in Unity..

DinoSteve1
06-11-2014, 04:27 PM
There might be a female npcs, but there is a reason why the other 3 characters are guys.

JustPlainQuirky
06-11-2014, 04:29 PM
Oh snap i forgot you always play as Arno.

So it makes 0 difference except who you see on your screen.

Maybe it's not that big of a deal after all.

Pantherine
06-11-2014, 04:31 PM
1,400 out of millions of people?

I really hope they fail. I don't want a female protagonist, the strongest people are men.

DinoSteve1
06-11-2014, 04:32 PM
Oh snap i forgot you always play as Arno.

So it makes 0 difference except who you see on your screen.

Maybe it's not that big of a deal after all.

Its not a big conspiracy against women or people from other races. It seems to me that they tried to do a woman but they couldn't get it to work in time.

JustPlainQuirky
06-11-2014, 04:33 PM
1,400 out of millions of people?

I really hope they fail. I don't want a female protagonist, the strongest people are men.

Gotta love blatant sexism.


@steve

fault of yearly releases then?

poptartz20
06-11-2014, 04:36 PM
As a female myself, I honestly have no problem with it. It's not like we have never had female assassins in the game before. So I really don't see why this one game makes a world of difference. :/

granted that might not be the answer people wanted to hear nor may it have been a "proper" delivery (just meaning he could have said it better) but I appreciate the honesty behind his answer.

I mean, if it's too much work, it's just too much work. We don't know the deadlines they are on or what they would have faced trying to make this happen? It could have have ultimately affected the gameplay if they put more focus on that aspect vs something else. So if it helps them make a better game at the end of the day I'm okay with it!

pacmanate
06-11-2014, 04:38 PM
Altair - Muslim
Ezio - Italian/White
Connor - Native American
Edward - Welsh/White
Adewale - Nigerian
Aveline - Nigerian (I think, but she was black)

Who cares if the 4 person line up features only white male protags?

adventurewomen
06-11-2014, 04:40 PM
Not once in this.. have they mentioned Aveline, she's a strong badass Women!

I understand the need for more female assassins, but they should at least appreciate the fact that we have Aveline at least.

SpiritOfNevaeh
06-11-2014, 04:40 PM
1,400 out of millions of people?

I really hope they fail. I don't want a female protagonist, the strongest people are men.

Really? Let's see men pop out a 8-9 lb. baby out of their "hole" lol :p

DinoSteve1
06-11-2014, 04:41 PM
Gotta love blatant sexism.


@steve

fault of yearly releases then?

Seems like it may be a factor, or they simply just can't get it to work.

Shahkulu101
06-11-2014, 04:42 PM
Altair - Muslim
Ezio - Italian/White
Connor - Native American
Edward - Welsh/White
Adewale - Nigerian
Aveline - Nigerian (I think, but she was black)



Who cares if the 4 person line up features only white male protags?

Adewale was from Trinidad and Aveline was half French half African(can't remember what country).

adventurewomen
06-11-2014, 04:43 PM
Altair - Muslim
Ezio - Italian/White
Connor - Native American
Edward - Welsh/White
Adewale - Nigerian
Aveline - Nigerian (I think, but she was black)

Who cares if the 4 person line up features only white male protags?
Connor was also 1/2 white, are you forgetting Kaniehtí:io and Haytham's rendezvous in the cave where they produced Connor.

Aveline was 1/2 White French and 1/2 Black she was Creole.

Adwale was Trinidadian.

Megas_Doux
06-11-2014, 04:44 PM
Altair: Syrian
Ezio: Italian
Connor: English/mohawk
Aveline: Black/French
Edward: Welsh.
Adewale: Black from Trinidad and tobago.
Arno: Austrian/French.

And then:

Aquilus: Roman..
Accipiter:German, so to speak
El Cakr: egyptian
Nikolai Orelov: Russian.
Arbaaz Mir : indian


That is all I will say....

pacmanate
06-11-2014, 04:52 PM
Really? Let's see men pop out a 8-9 lb. baby out of their "hole" lol :p

Uh, men and women both have bum holes. Would like to see you push a baby out of that hole too!

I-Like-Pie45
06-11-2014, 04:57 PM
Not once in this.. have they mentioned Aveline, she's a strong badass Women!

I understand the need for more female assassins, but they should at least appreciate the fact that we have Aveline at least.

I'm sorry adventurewomen

I don't really find black women attractive so I can't really appreciate Aveline. :(

SpiritOfNevaeh
06-11-2014, 04:57 PM
Uh, men and women both have bum holes. Would like to see you push a baby out of that hole too!

You know which "hole" I mean! >_>;;; :rolleyes:

Sushiglutton
06-11-2014, 04:58 PM
Support Ubisoft's decision in this case.

I don't mind playing as female characters at all, Tomb Raider and Mirror's Edge are among my favourite games. I can understand why people want to play as their own gender and that a greater representation by minorities and females in general would be a positive thing for gaming. That being said Ubisoft has struggled in the past with being overambitious (aka AC3). I much prefer if they try to do fewer things, but do them well. Doubling all animations just isn't worth it imo.




"This just goes to show how Ubisoft doesn’t want to put that much effort into their franchise anymore."

Lol sentences like this makes the entire petition hard to take seriously.

Wolfmeister1010
06-11-2014, 05:02 PM
It is nice to know what the deal with the co op is. If everyone just sees Arno on their screen, the obviously the other assassins are just nameless brotherhood members, and so why would it even matter if one of them was female or not? You don't get to play as them..

It seems that we are getting a strong female character as part of the cast though..so we should be happy..

RinoTheBouncer
06-11-2014, 05:03 PM
Nothing against your thread but I just don’t get these people complaining about no females and no colored people in AC:Unity. Just like those who said Far Cry 4 artwork was racist, those people here think there’s a sinister conspiracy and discrimination behind using 4 white males in AC:Unity team.

I think it’s just a story. If FC4 showed a racist pose, that’s because the guy is a racist and enslaves people, is that offensive? no because this is the story and it doesn’t have to comply with our morals. Same goes for this. Are those 4 men misogynist? are they racists for not adding a black guy with them for example? no and maybe, yes, but is that a problem? no because this is how their story goes. It doesn’t necessarily mean each player supports or opposes that.

I-Like-Pie45
06-11-2014, 05:03 PM
It is nice to know what the deal with the co op is. If everyone just sees Arno on their screen, the obviously the other assassins are just nameless brotherhood members, and so why would it even matter if one of them was female or not? You don't get to play as them..

It seems that we are getting a strong female character as part of the cast though..so we should be happy..

don't get your hopes up

she'll probably die for the sake of advancing the male character's plot like mary whateverhernameis or spaghetti vespucci da cappuccino

ArabianFrost
06-11-2014, 05:05 PM
don't get your hopes up

she'll probably die for the sake of advancing the male character's plot like mary whateverhernameis or spaghetti vespucci da cappuccino
ze patriarchy wins once again!

DinoSteve1
06-11-2014, 05:08 PM
I'd like to start a petition against this petition.

deskp
06-11-2014, 05:09 PM
I'd like to start a petition against this petition.

Signed.

SpiritOfNevaeh
06-11-2014, 05:10 PM
Nothing against your thread but I just don’t get these people complaining about no females and no colored people in AC:Unity. Just like those who said Far Cry 4 artwork was racist, those people here think there’s a sinister conspiracy and discrimination behind using 4 white males in AC:Unity team.

I think it’s just a story. If FC4 showed a racist pose, that’s because the guy is a racist and enslaves people, is that offensive? no because this is the story and it doesn’t have to comply with our morals. Same goes for this. Are those 4 men misogynist? are they racists for not adding a black guy with them for example? no and maybe, yes, but is that a problem? no because this is how their story goes. It doesn’t necessarily mean each player supports or opposes that.

None taken. I'm not complaining about what kind of protagonists show up in video games, as long as they're interesting, original, etc.

Pandassin
06-11-2014, 05:12 PM
Okay I am getting so sick of people complaining over the lack of races in Assassin's Creed.

The only white protagonists we've had are Ezio, Edward and Arno. That's three people. Altair, Connor, Aveline and Adéwalé are different races. That's more than the amount of white people and yet people still think that white people get too much attention in the franchise, when they haven't.

Why do people even care about the protagonists appearance anyways? As long as the character is interesting and the actual game is fun, the character's appearance shouldn't matter. Besides, Ubisoft always presents all races well, they're not racist and do not favour any races over others.

It also bugs me how if the majority of the protagonists were black for example, and people wanted a white protagonist for a change, people would be like "Wow that's racist, what do you have against black people?" This is the same situation except for some reason discriminating white people doesn't class as racism since most people think it's okay to discriminate them. I'm not saying this would totally happen, that's just how I've seen other people react in different cases.

I don't care what race the new Assassin is, as long as he's interesting, that's fine by me. Sorry for the rant but I've seen too people complaining about this too many times. It's nice to have a variety of races and cultures, but people complain about the lack of it in AC when there's really a lot of it.

RinoTheBouncer
06-11-2014, 05:14 PM
None taken. I'm not complaining about what kind of protagonists show up in video games, as long as they're interesting, original, etc.

Yeah, sure. I welcome any type of character as along as he/she are well written, have a good dialogue and role to play in the story. :)
What bothers me is that how some people make it sound like a conspiracy.


Okay I am getting so sick of people complaining over the lack of races in Assassin's Creed.

The only white protagonists we've had are Ezio, Edward and Arno. That's three people. Altair, Connor, Aveline and Adéwalé are different races. That's more than the amount of white people and yet people still think that white people get too much attention in the franchise, when they haven't.

Why do people even care about the protagonists appearance anyways? As long as the character is interesting and the actual game is fun, the character's appearance shouldn't matter. Besides, Ubisoft always presents all races well, they're not racist and do not favour any races over others.

It also bugs me how if the majority of the protagonists were black for example, and people wanted a white protagonist for a change, people would be like "Wow that's racist, what do you have against black people?" This is the same situation except for some reason discriminating white people doesn't class as racism since most people think it's okay to discriminate them.

I don't care what race the new Assassin is, as long as he's interesting, that's fine by me. Sorry for the rant but I've seen too people complaining about this too many times.

My thoughts exactly!

Locopells
06-11-2014, 05:20 PM
OK, I'll say this once.

I'm gonna leave this open for the moment, since people feel it is a serious issue.

But keep it civil, etc, or I'll close it regardless.

I-Like-Pie45
06-11-2014, 05:21 PM
Yes, we shall enact a very civil flame war in this thread as you have requested, loco.

Jexx21
06-11-2014, 05:26 PM
You know which "hole" I mean! >_>;;; :rolleyes:

Woman have three holes. Men actually don't have a hole in any form equivalent to the hole babies come out of.

SpiritOfNevaeh
06-11-2014, 05:29 PM
Woman have three holes. Men actually don't have a hole in any form equivalent to the hole babies come out of.

Hehehe... this civil enough for you, Loco? :D

Hekateras
06-11-2014, 05:31 PM
Yes, yes, it looks visually wonderful, now if only those of us who aren't stubbly white dudes weren't forced to play stubbly white dudes for the billionth time in a row. The France Revoution: such a wasted opportunity. One of the most famous actual real life assassins during the Revolution was Charlotte Corday, playing as a female (potentially a crossdressing one! just imagine! double the subterfuge possibilities!) would have opened up SO many creative horizons for the game.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlotte_Corday


Corday's decision to kill Marat was stimulated not only by her revulsion at the September Massacres (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_Massacres), for which she held Marat responsible, but by her fear of an all-out civil war.[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlotte_Corday#cite_note-Whitham-3):161 She believed that Marat was threatening the Republic, and that his death would end violence throughout the nation. She also believed that King Louis XVI (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_XVI_of_France) should not have been executed.

Initially, she planned to assassinate Marat in front of the entire National Convention (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Convention), intending to make an example out of him, but upon arriving in Paris she discovered that Marat no longer attended meetings because his health was deteriorating due to a skin disorder. She was then forced to change her plan. She went to Marat's home before noon on 13 July, claiming to have knowledge of a planned Girondist uprising in Caen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caen); she was turned away. On her return that evening, Marat admitted her. At the time, he conducted most of his affairs from a bathtub (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bathtub) because of a debilitating skin condition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dermatitis_herpetiformis). Marat wrote down the names of the Girondists that she gave to him, then she pulled out the knife and plunged it into his chest, piercing his lung (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lung), aorta (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aorta) and left ventricle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left_ventricle).[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)] He called out, Aidez-moi, ma chère amie! ("Help me, my dear friend!") and died.

At her trial, when Corday testified that she had carried out the assassination alone, saying "I killed one man to save 100,000," she was likely alluding to Maximilien Robespierre (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximilien_Robespierre)'s words (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robespierre#Execution_of_Louis_XVI) before the execution of King Louis XVI. On 17 July 1793, four days after Marat was killed, Corday was executed under the guillotine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guillotine) and her corpse was disposed of in the Madeleine Cemetery (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madeleine_Cemetery).

But women never did anything before the 20th century, riiiight? Why bother including them in storylines that take place in various historical settings. >.>

Mr_Shade
06-11-2014, 05:31 PM
Yes, we shall enact a very civil flame war in this thread as you have requested, loco.

I suggest you take the warning seriously - if that's possible for you in your current persona..

xx-pyro
06-11-2014, 05:33 PM
Woman have three holes. Men actually don't have a hole in any form equivalent to the hole babies come out of.

I don't know what kind of women you hang out with but most women I know have 7.


I suggest you take the warning seriously - if that's possible for you in your current persona..

#rekt

DinoSteve1
06-11-2014, 05:34 PM
OK, I'll say this once.

I'm gonna leave this open for the moment, since people feel it is a serious issue.

But keep it civil, etc, or I'll close it regardless.


Woman have three holes. Men actually don't have a hole in any form equivalent to the hole babies come out of.

Maybe it should be locked.

Jexx21
06-11-2014, 05:37 PM
Co-op characters are Arno w/ different face.

Like Watch_Dogs. Ubi animators have actually been talking about the case on twitter, and making animations for women wouldn't actually be that hard or take that much time, but they're also acknowledging that there are so many other things that go on in game development and that whatever happens, it is not because the game devs are lazy or prejudiced, as it does sound like the Unity devs tried to include it but couldn't for whatever reason.

I don't think this is anything to get up in arms about and I feel like the issue is being overblown, specifically for AC Unity. Assassin's Creed has always had a strong cast of female characters, and I don't doubt that Unity will include even more.

zerocooll21
06-11-2014, 06:22 PM
...But women never did anything before the 20th century, riiiight? Why bother including them in storylines that take place in various historical settings. >.>

Its not about Gender wars, its about immersion. Most gamers are male and most males don't fancy pretending they are a girl.

Xstantin
06-11-2014, 06:28 PM
I wonder if all people signing this petition bought AC Liberation to show their support, or other games such as Remember Me or Transistor for that matter.

JustPlainQuirky
06-11-2014, 06:41 PM
^I own all those games and i think this petition is silly.

Sushiglutton
06-11-2014, 07:07 PM
Shots fired (http://www.gamespot.com/articles/e3-2014-ex-ubisoft-dev-refutes-reported-difficulty-of-female-assassin-s-creed-characters/1100-6420392/)

For those who don't know Jonathan did the animations for AC3 before moving on to Naughty Dog a couple of months ago.

"In my educated opinion, I would estimate this to be a day or two's work. Not a replacement of 8000 animations," Cooper said on Twitter. "Man, if I had a dollar for every time someone at Ubisoft tried to bullsh** me on animation tech," he added.

To stress his point further, Cooper said the female main character of PlayStation Vita game Assassin's Creed III: Liberation, Aveline de Grandpre, "shares more of Connor Kenway's animations than Edward Kenway does." Connor Kenway was the protagonist in Assassin's Creed III, while Edward Kenway played the lead role in last year's Assassin's Creed IV: Black Flag."



Juicy scandal brewing. Apologize for my erronous comments previously on the topic!

JustPlainQuirky
06-11-2014, 07:10 PM
Ah ha ha ha ha ha.

Though I think this whole debate is somewhat silly, that was a nice burn.

ArabianFrost
06-11-2014, 07:10 PM
give them the benefit of doubt of using a different engine?

Sushiglutton
06-11-2014, 07:12 PM
Ah ha ha ha ha ha.

Though I think this whole debate is somewhat silly, that was a nice burn.


Yeah it's still kind of a non-issue to me. There always seem to be some "scandal" when Ubi reveals AC (E3 was the proper reveal). AC3 had people going mad over Connor just killing redcoats (lol). For AC4 it was about the two undressed ladies in the trailer (lol).



give them the benefit of doubt of using a different engine?

I am completely clueless about these things, so why the hell not. Like I said it doesn't really bother me at all. I loved everything they have shown thus far.

DinoSteve1
06-11-2014, 07:13 PM
yep because you can count on the word of a disgruntled employee.

JustPlainQuirky
06-11-2014, 07:13 PM
I heard about the redcoats scandal even before I was a fan of AC.

Funny how some people always find something to stir up about.

Sushiglutton
06-11-2014, 07:16 PM
yep because you can count on the word of a disgruntled employee.

Yep because having to work at a lousy studio like Naughty Dog surely made him bitter :nonchalance:

AidenPixxel
06-11-2014, 07:16 PM
I don't think the problem was to create women animations but because you always play like Arno in your game it would be hard to make the animations look different when someone else sees you in his game like a girl and it would be weird to see a woman with Arno's animations.

DinoSteve1
06-11-2014, 07:18 PM
Yep because having to work at a lousy studio like Naughty Dog surely made him bitter :nonchalance:

You can be happy with your new job and still bitter about the old one. Although going by how he is acting he won't be a naughtydog for long.

Ahhhhhhh mods I hate thread fusion.

poptartz20
06-11-2014, 07:30 PM
I'm sorry adventurewomen

I don't really find black women attractive so I can't really appreciate Aveline. :(


whaaa...? Is this serious? I can't handle this thread. And just for future ref. There is no such thing as "Colored People" Yes there are people of Color. But colored people is not a race nor ethnicity. :|

I-Like-Pie45
06-11-2014, 07:31 PM
whaaa...? Is this serious? I can't handle this thread. And just for future ref. There is no such thing as "Colored People" Yes there are people of Color. But colored people is not a race nor ethnicity. :|

What do you think?

poptartz20
06-11-2014, 07:37 PM
What do you think?

about what aspect? You being serious.... I can never tell. Ha! You have to many personas.

Meow was nice. lol

Evenesque
06-11-2014, 07:39 PM
This is such a dumb argument. Do people really think they're making this up because secretly they just don't like women? You think maybe Jade Raymond would have a problem with that, especially considering she's the lead architect for their co-op structures?

Find something worthwhile to ***** about instead of being so self righteous and bastardizing women's issues to supplement your own trollish boredom. You people are insulting real issues women face by bringing this up as one.

adventurewomen
06-11-2014, 07:43 PM
Yep because having to work at a lousy studio like Naughty Dog surely made him bitter :nonchalance:
No one can blame him though, the gaming development industry isn't as fun as it looks it's long hours requires most of your time..

I-Like-Pie45
06-11-2014, 07:47 PM
about what aspect? You being serious.... I can never tell. Ha! You have to many personas.

Meow was nice. lol

WELL I DON'T KNOW ABOUT MEOW BEING NICE BUT HE SURE WAS A FLUFFY FUZZY HUGGY KITTY BUT ONLY HE WOULD REMOVE ALL YOUR FLESH FROM YOUR HAND IF YOU TRIED TO DO THAT SO I DON'T THINK HE REALLY WAS A NICE KITTY

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l - RC

poptartz20
06-11-2014, 07:57 PM
HAHAHAHAH! Oh pie! you always keep me amused! :D

I-Like-Pie45
06-11-2014, 08:00 PM
AMUSING? YOU THINK ANY OF THIS IS AMUSING?

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l - RC

VoXngola
06-11-2014, 08:10 PM
I can't take these feminists, seriously.
Why do you have to bring in your gender in VIDEO GAMES.
Let Developers develop their games, if their vision includes 4 men in co-op, LET. THEM. DO. IT.

Really, I really hope this "petition" fails. This is just pathetic. I'm really afraid of the future of video games.

Jexx21
06-11-2014, 08:14 PM
More female protagonists would be awesome, but seeing as co-op doesn't work where you choose a character to play as and you are rather always playing as Arno in your personal experience, it would actually be pretty weird as you wouldn't be personally experiencing it yourself anyway so I don't think it matters at all.

DinoSteve1
06-11-2014, 08:14 PM
lol

JustPlainQuirky
06-11-2014, 08:15 PM
I can't take these feminists, seriously.
Why do you have to bring in your gender in VIDEO GAMES.
Let Developers develop their games, if their vision includes 4 men in co-op, LET. THEM. DO. IT.


This. It's their choice.

VoXngola
06-11-2014, 08:21 PM
To clarify, don't get me wrong. In no way am I a mysognist. I'd find it cool if we'd get a female protagonist in a "main" AC game.
I just don't like the "gaming feminist" approach. They are going about it completly wrong and at this point are just criticising anything that has a man on it to for clickbait and attention.

I'm sorry about female gamers that aren't attention hungry and play like everyone else without having to exaggerate their gender, saying "hurr I'm a gurrl gamer" at every turn.

Phew, I never wrote like this in here because I'm mostly a lurker, but this really makes me go insane.

JustPlainQuirky
06-11-2014, 08:22 PM
To clarify, don't get me wrong. In no way am I a mysognist. I'd find it cool if we'd get a female protagonist in a "main" AC game.
I just don't like the "gaming feminist" approach. They are going about it completly wrong and at this point are just criticising anything that has a man on it to for clickbait and attention.

I'm sorry about female gamers that aren't attention hungry and play like everyone else without having to exaggerate their gender, saying "hurr I'm a gurrl gamer" at every turn.

Phew, I never wrote like this in here because I'm mostly a lurker, but this really makes me go insane.

As a woman and a minority, I fully agree with you. You're not being mysognist at all.

AherasSTRG
06-11-2014, 08:29 PM
I won't be buying ACU if there isn't a transexual Asian left-handed assassin starring.

JustPlainQuirky
06-11-2014, 08:33 PM
I won't be buying ACU if there isn't a transexual Asian left-handed assassin starring.

A transexual asian left-handed one-legged scientologist midget assassin.*

AherasSTRG
06-11-2014, 08:49 PM
A transexual asian left-handed one-legged scientologist midget assassin.*

Did you mention he also has to be a Jenovah witness?

I-Like-Pie45
06-11-2014, 08:52 PM
YOU SPELLED JEHOVAH WRONG

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l - RC

AherasSTRG
06-11-2014, 08:53 PM
YOU SPELLED JEHOVAH WRONG

----

l - RC

Man, I can't see your profile pic and I am losing all the references.

Jexx21
06-11-2014, 09:02 PM
I feel weird about this whole issue because while I understand the want and even the need for representation, I think it needs to make sense in context.

But also, I really have no or very little issues with things that a good amount of people consider racist, like the White Savior trope (see Far Cry 3, Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom, etc.) I only really take offense when something is directly a prejudice or insult against a person or group of people because of their sex, race, religion, sexuality, political party, favorite Assassin, etc. Like saying women are weak, or that homosexuals are all evil and disease ridden, or that Jews are going to be the end of the world (none of which I believe by the way). Yes, under-representation does matter, but it should always be taken in context.

In the case of Unity, I'm sure that we would have a female Assassin in the group if the case wasn't that we're all playing as Arno on our own screens anyway. It is typical for most 4 player co-op games to have at least one female character (Borderlands 1 and 2, Far Cry 3, Left 4 Dead 1 and 2, etc.).

DinoSteve1
06-11-2014, 09:23 PM
Did you mention he also has to be a Jenovah witness?
Did someone say Jenovah witness?

http://i59.tinypic.com/2lpc39.png

SixKeys
06-11-2014, 09:24 PM
Signed the petition. I'm so sick of scruffy white male protagonists.

Shahkulu101
06-11-2014, 09:37 PM
Signed the petition. I'm so sick of scruffy white male protagonists.

Arno is quite clean cut actually.

Although you still have a reason to be mad if you don't like white people.

MasterAssasin84
06-11-2014, 09:37 PM
I only found out today about their decision to NOT include Fem Assassins as its too much work.
I must admit im quite shocked with all the lame excuses they have came up with in regards to the whole situation. Maybe im biased as im a girl but seriously everyone on Twitter and my Facebook is hellbent on destroying your rep but maybe you already have done that LOL.
Honestly I thought you were a good fair company but all you care about is how your game looks in regards to what gamers actually want in a game.
Let the hate begin im expecting it


I suggest you play Liberation before you start commenting !!

And believe me a few morons blurting on about equality is games is not going to ruin ubisoft's reputation ! just look at the stats of their followers !

Close this thread Moderators

Lonnie_Jackson
06-11-2014, 09:38 PM
Found this response by Ubisoft.

We recognize the valid concern around diversity in video game narrative. Assassin's Creed is developed by a multicultural team of various faiths and beliefs and we hope this attention to diversity is reflected in the settings of our games and our characters.
Assassin's Creed Unity is focused on the story of the lead character, Arno. Whether playing by yourself or with the co-op Shared Experiences, you the gamer will always be playing as Arno, complete with his broad range of gear and skill sets that will make you feel unique.
With regard to diversity in our playable Assassins, we've featured Aveline, Connor, Adewale and Altair in Assassin's Creed games and we continue to look at showcasing diverse characters. We look forward to introducing you to some of the strong female characters in Assassin's Creed Unity.

http://kotaku.com/ubisoft-responds-to-assassins-creed-female-character-co-1589413130

AherasSTRG
06-11-2014, 09:50 PM
Signed the petition. I'm so sick of scruffy white male protagonists.

Are you being serious?

Ureh
06-11-2014, 09:59 PM
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2014-06-11-assassins-creed-unity-wont-let-you-play-as-a-female-assassin

It's double the animations, it's double the voices, all that stuff and double the visual assets," he said. "Especially because we have customisable assassins. It was really a lot of extra production work.

For combat animations, I'm pretty sure they could've just copied most of the male ones.

But what do they mean by "double the voices"? Will there be cutscenes where the co-op assassins will speak? Or are they talking about grunting and breathing?

SixKeys
06-11-2014, 10:03 PM
Are you being serious?

Yes.

http://www.twinfinite.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/video-game-protagonists-kids-love-brown-haired-30-something-white-males-500x377.jpg

Shahkulu101
06-11-2014, 10:04 PM
Oh no they're white.

That particular skin colour offends me.

SixKeys
06-11-2014, 10:05 PM
Oh no their white.

That particular skin colour offends me.

Okay, now show me all the games featuring non-white leads.

Shahkulu101
06-11-2014, 10:07 PM
Okay, now show me all the games featuring non-white leads.

I don't care what skin colour humans are I'm afraid.

Seriously you're looking at a character, seeing his skin colour and decrying his skin colour. Racist.

AherasSTRG
06-11-2014, 10:10 PM
Yes.

http://www.twinfinite.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/video-game-protagonists-kids-love-brown-haired-30-something-white-males-500x377.jpg

I respectfully disagree. In the picture you posted, I can see a Jewish and an Eastern European anyway.

SixKeys
06-11-2014, 10:11 PM
I don't care what skin colour humans are I'm afraid.

Seriously you're looking at a character, seeing his skin colour and decrying his skin colour. Racist.

Well, you should. People's race is an integral part of their identity and by decrying it as not important you're essentially denying that part of their identity.

Why There's No Such Thing As Reverse Racism (http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/07/15/884649/-Why-there-s-no-such-thing-as-Reverse-Racism)

SixKeys
06-11-2014, 10:12 PM
I respectfully disagree. In the picture you posted, I can see a Jewish and an Eastern European anyway.

Eastern Europeans are white. -___-

How can you tell simply by looking at one of these characters that they're Jewish?

MasterAssasin84
06-11-2014, 10:14 PM
Found this response by Ubisoft.

We recognize the valid concern around diversity in video game narrative. Assassin's Creed is developed by a multicultural team of various faiths and beliefs and we hope this attention to diversity is reflected in the settings of our games and our characters.
Assassin's Creed Unity is focused on the story of the lead character, Arno. Whether playing by yourself or with the co-op Shared Experiences, you the gamer will always be playing as Arno, complete with his broad range of gear and skill sets that will make you feel unique.
With regard to diversity in our playable Assassins, we've featured Aveline, Connor, Adewale and Altair in Assassin's Creed games and we continue to look at showcasing diverse characters. We look forward to introducing you to some of the strong female characters in Assassin's Creed Unity.

http://kotaku.com/ubisoft-responds-to-assassins-creed-female-character-co-1589413130



People actually fail to acknowledge this !! that integral message at the beginning of each AC !! great find Redfield i Believe in free speech but some of these threads in regards to equality and diversity are practically a joke

Shahkulu101
06-11-2014, 10:15 PM
Well, you should. People's race is an integral part of their identity and decrying it as not important you're essentially denying that part of their identity.

Why There's No Such Thing As Reverse Racism (http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/07/15/884649/-Why-there-s-no-such-thing-as-Reverse-Racism)

I'm brown.

But my identity comes for my mixed cultural background, my interests, hobbies, passions, from my family, everyone I associate with and the two countries I originate from. Not my browness.

Anyway, I'll give that link of yours a read and perhaps I'll reach and epiphany.

SixKeys
06-11-2014, 10:19 PM
People actually fail to acknowledge this !! that integral message at the beginning of each AC !! great find Redfield i Believe in free speech but some of these threads in regards to equality and diversity are practically a joke

It's Ubisoft who's failing here. They keep saying these games are made by multicultural people blah blah blah, but at the same time refuse to put more female characters into their games because apparently designing a female character takes more work than a male character somehow. As an artist, I can assure you it doesn't take me longer to draw a woman than it does to draw a man. If they were worried about doubling the assets, okay then. Give us four female co-op characters, one of whom is the main protagonist of the game. Problem solved. What's that, you say? But then we wouldn't be able to market our games to the 30-something white male crowd? Oh, but I thought this wasn't about marketing, I thought it was about acknowledging that gender shouldn't matter! :rolleyes: If gender doesn't matter, why aren't we getting four female co-op characters instead of four male ones?

Jexx21
06-11-2014, 10:19 PM
Okay, now show me all the games featuring non-white leads.

Assassin's Creed, Assassin's Creed III, Assassin's Creed III: Liberation, Assassin's Creed IV Black Flag Freedom Cry, Prototype 2, GTA3: San Andreas, Borderlands, Splinter Cell: Blacklist, Sleeping Dogs, inFAMOUS: Second Son, Mirror's Edge, The Walking Dead Season One, The Walking Dead Season Two, and more.

AherasSTRG
06-11-2014, 10:20 PM
Eastern Europeans are white. -___-

I don't understand what 'white' means. I know American, Middle European, Caucasian, Eskimo etc etc.


How can you tell simply by looking at one of these characters that they're Jewish?

Easy. One of the portrayed characters is Starkiller from the Star Wars The Force Unleashed games, who is portrayed by actor Samuel Witwer, who is Jewish. Of course, Starkiller in the game is not Jewish (lol), but knowing Mr Witwer and his religion you cannot, but connect the 2.

SixKeys
06-11-2014, 10:24 PM
I'm brown.

But my identity comes for my mixed cultural background, my interests, hobbies, passions, from my family, everyone I associate with and the two countries I originate from. Not my browness.

Anyway, I'll give that link of yours a read and perhaps I'll reach and epiphany.

I'm white. My identity is formed by many things, one of which is the inherent privilege that being white grants to me, such as better job opportunities and less casual racism in my day-to-day life. I don't have to worry about getting stopped and frisked purely because of my skin color, for example. I don't have to worry that my skin color might be a big factor in getting that job I really need. I don't have to worry about being especially scrutinized by mall cops when I'm simply out shopping. To say that my skin color has nothing to do with who I am would be devaluing the experiences that non-white people experience in my country every day.

SixKeys
06-11-2014, 10:26 PM
I don't understand what 'white' means. I know American, Middle European, Caucasian, Eskimo etc etc.

America is a country. Europe is a continent. Caucasian means the same thing as white. Eskimo (or Inuit) is a race. Hope that clears things up for you.


Easy. One of the portrayed characters is Starkiller from the Star Wars The Force Unleashed games, who is portrayed by actor Samuel Witwer, who is Jewish. Of course, Starkiller in the game is not Jewish (lol), but knowing Mr Witwer and his religion you cannot, but connect the 2.

I said "just by looking at them". Please tell me how you could identify that character as being Jewish if you didn't know the game he was from or the actor playing him.

MasterAssasin84
06-11-2014, 10:28 PM
It's Ubisoft who's failing here. They keep saying these games are made by multicultural people blah blah blah, but at the same time refuse to put more female characters into their games because apparently designing a female character takes more work than a male character somehow. As an artist, I can assure you it doesn't take me longer to draw a woman than it does to draw a man. If they were worried about doubling the assets, okay then. Give us four female co-op characters, one of whom is the main protagonist of the game. Problem solved. What's that, you say? But then we wouldn't be able to market our games to the 30-something white male crowd? Oh, but I thought this wasn't about marketing, I thought it was about acknowledging that gender shouldn't matter! :rolleyes: If gender doesn't matter, why aren't we getting four female co-op characters instead of four male ones?


Last time i checked there was Multiplayer Female characters and if Gender was such an issue in AC then why has its founder and creator who happens to be a woman Jade Raymond recognised it as a concern !! its just equality bickering gone mad .

Shahkulu101
06-11-2014, 10:28 PM
I'm white. My identity is formed by many things, one of which is the inherent privilege that being white grants to me, such as better job opportunities and less casual racism in my day-to-day life. I don't have to worry about getting stopped and frisked purely because of my skin color, for example. I don't have to worry that my skin color might be a big factor in getting that job I really need. I don't have to worry about being especially scrutinized by mall cops when I'm simply out shopping. To say that my skin color has nothing to do with who I am would be devaluing the experiences that non-white people experience in my country every day.

What I was saying is that I don't judge people by their skin colour. If everyone didn't consider skin colour a factor there would be no discrimination. But obviously racism exists and we need to cosider it a factor in order to fight inequalities.

It's just that I don't think of race much in the context of video games and don't care what colour a character is.

EDIT: I mean if a character is brown should I celebrate? I just don't really care.

Jexx21
06-11-2014, 10:32 PM
she was asking for games with non-white protagonists, she said nothing about female.

pacmanate
06-11-2014, 10:37 PM
THE OP IS DUMB. There is no need for this stupid discussion.

Hekateras
06-11-2014, 10:41 PM
It's funny, the only people I ever see dismiss questions of diversity and equal rights as "equality bickering" or "political correctness gone mad" are the very people who are benefiting from inequality and are white, male, heterosexual or at least some of those three.

By the way, regarding the "whiteness" of Altair (since I haven't played anything later than Revelations yet due to technical issues and so can't comment): Major, major kudos to Ubisoft for setting the game in the Middle East (this is a big part of what psyched me for the other installments), but Altair himself is as whitewashed a "coloured" character as one can get in the sense that he looks "ambiguously white" and even has an uber American-accented voice in the English dub, compared to some of the NPCs and especially the antagonists who look and sound much more "ethnic". It's basicallylike Disney's Aladdin all over again with the sympathetic lead who's on the "whiter" end of the spectrum and the much more recognisably coloured Jafar. So while, again, kudos for them for choosing that location, I don't feel Altair is such a strong point in that discussion.

But anyway, back to the topic in general: I'm a woman, I've played AC obsessively since it first came out and followed the development from before that, I'm currently replaying Revelations in Italian as practice for class. I know at least three other people - all women, whom I've been exchanging outraged skype messages with this entire day - who are exactly like me in this regard. Please. We play, we care about your games, we care a lot. We care enough to buy them and buy the merchandise and buy LImited Edition and spend hundreds of dollars on expensive cosplays just so we can run around at cons for a while and pretend to be assassins.

If we're not half your player base, we certainly COULD be with just a few shows of faith, and we deserve better than this - better than the inclusion of female characters being the first thing to cut corners on during development.

And the women who helped change the world and died for it during the French Revolution deserve better than this, too.

SixKeys
06-11-2014, 10:41 PM
Assassin's Creed, Assassin's Creed III, Assassin's Creed III: Liberation, Assassin's Creed IV Black Flag Freedom Cry, Prototype 2, GTA3: San Andreas, Borderlands, Splinter Cell: Blacklist, Sleeping Dogs, inFAMOUS: Second Son, Mirror's Edge, The Walking Dead Season One, The Walking Dead Season Two, and more.

More white male lead games:

Batman, Spider-Man, Red-Dead Redemption, The Last of Us, Super Mario Bros., Uncharted 1, 2 & 3, every GTA except 3, Watch Dogs, Mass Effect (default Shepard), every Star Wars game, Half Life, Far Cry 1, 2, 3 & 4, Alan Wake, The Legend of Zelda, Deadpool, Max Payne, Braid, Prototype 1, Infamous 1 & 2, God of War, Amnesia 1 & 2.....

Your turn again.

MasterAssasin84
06-11-2014, 10:42 PM
THE OP IS DUMB. There is no need for this stupid discussion.


Agreed with this !! these points are completely irrelevant to this game !! if this was really an issue about the protagonist being white male !! why was this voiced in Black Flag ?

This thread needs to be locked

DinoSteve1
06-11-2014, 10:44 PM
This thread is still open?

Shahkulu101
06-11-2014, 10:47 PM
It's funny, the only people I ever see dismiss questions of diversity and equal rights as "equality bickering" or "political correctness gone mad" are the very people who are benefiting from inequality and are white, male, heterosexual or at least some of those three.

By the way, regarding the "whiteness" of Altair (since I haven't played anything later than Revelations yet due to technical issues and so can't comment): Major, major kudos to Ubisoft for setting the game in the Middle East (this is a big part of what psyched me for the other installments), but Altair himself is as whitewashed a "coloured" character as one can get in the sense that he looks "ambiguously white" and even has an uber American-accented voice in the English dub, compared to some of the NPCs and especially the antagonists who look and sound much more "ethnic". It's basicallylike Disney's Aladdin all over again with the sympathetic lead who's on the "whiter" end of the spectrum and the much more recognisably coloured Jafar. So while, again, kudos for them for choosing that location, I don't feel Altair is such a strong point in that discussion.

But anyway, back to the topic in general: I'm a woman, I've played AC obsessively since it first came out and followed the development from before that, I'm currently replaying Revelations in Italian as practice for class. I know at least three other people - all women, whom I've been exchanging outraged skype messages with this entire day - who are exactly like me in this regard. Please. We play, we care about your games, we care a lot. We care enough to buy them and buy the merchandise and buy LImited Edition and spend hundreds of dollars on expensive cosplays just so we can run around at cons for a while and pretend to be assassins.

If we're not half your player base, we certainly COULD be with just a few shows of faith, and we deserve better than this - better than the inclusion of female characters being the first thing to cut corners on during development.

And the women who helped change the world and died for it during the French Revolution deserve better than this, too.

Syrians, and people from the Levant in general, are much lighter skinned. No whitewashing about Altair's character whatsoever.

SpiritOfNevaeh
06-11-2014, 10:49 PM
THE OP IS DUMB. There is no need for this stupid discussion.

No need to be cruel, dude. I didn't know this topic would get so out of hand, but don't blame the messenger... I just thought it would be an interesting topic to discuss and wanted to know everyone's thoughts.

And for that, I apologize for the problems this thread may have caused T_T

Megas_Doux
06-11-2014, 10:50 PM
More white male lead games:

Batman, Spider-Man, Red-Dead Redemption, The Last of Us, Super Mario Bros., Uncharted 1, 2 & 3, every GTA except 3, Watch Dogs, Mass Effect (default Shepard), every Star Wars game, Half Life, Far Cry 1, 2, 3 & 4, Alan Wake, The Legend of Zelda, Deadpool, Max Payne, Braid, Prototype 1, Infamous 1 & 2, God of War, Amnesia 1 & 2.....

Your turn again.

Of course there are more games under that situation, buy I have some:


TOMB RAIDER, Bayoneta, Ninja Gaiden, BloodRayne, MANY reisdent evil games, all the Onimusha saga, Silent hill 3, Fatal Frame saga , Clock tower saga, Alien Isolation, ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL final fantasy´s, Guilty gear, Killer instinct, Far cry 4, Dragon ball, Saint seiya, Rule of Rose, Tekken saga , Street fighter saga, King of fighters games, Samurai shodown games, Kingdom hearts, Xenosaga, etc, etc

Although would to have a full AC game in which the main character is a woman.


Far cry 4 ´s protagonist is called Ajay Ghale, not you average western name for a man.....

SixKeys
06-11-2014, 10:54 PM
What I was saying is that I don't judge people by their skin colour. If everyone didn't consider skin colour a factor there would be no discrimination. But obviously racism exists and we need to cosider it a factor in order to fight inequalities.

It's just that I don't think of race much in the context of video games and don't care what colour a character is.

EDIT: I mean if a character is brown should I celebrate? I just don't really care.

If you don't care, fine. But please don't dismiss the opinions of those who do. I believe entertainment can be a powerful tool in shaping our reality. It's important for me, as a bisexual woman (let alone someone who isn't white like I am) to have characters I can relate to in media. It's disturbing to me how many men say they couldn't imagine themselves playing as a female character, without even considering us female gamers barely have a choice.


THE OP IS DUMB. There is no need for this stupid discussion.

Wrong. When the first next-gen AC game is coming out and features even less playable female characters than the last four games in the series, now more than ever there is need for this discussion.


Last time i checked there was Multiplayer Female characters and if Gender was such an issue in AC then why has its founder and creator who happens to be a woman Jade Raymond recognised it as a concern !! its just equality bickering gone mad .

The multiplayer male-to-female character ratio has always been unbalanced. In AC4, there are 16 MP characters and only 5 of those are female. If you count the DLC characters, there's 4 more male characters and 2 females.

The argument "well, here's one person who represents this entire minority group and s/he doesn't mind!" is BS. Jade Raymond doesn't speak for all women any more or less than I do. When you have a growing group of people saying "hey, we think this is a problem and do you think you could address this in your games?", it's ridiculous to march out one person who says otherwise as if that somehow completely invalidates the huge group of people voicing their concerns.

DinoSteve1
06-11-2014, 10:57 PM
ugh people are making an issue where there is none.

Jexx21
06-11-2014, 10:57 PM
More white male lead games:

Batman, Spider-Man, Red-Dead Redemption, The Last of Us, Super Mario Bros., Uncharted 1, 2 & 3, every GTA except 3, Watch Dogs, Mass Effect (default Shepard), every Star Wars game, Half Life, Far Cry 1, 2, 3 & 4, Alan Wake, The Legend of Zelda, Deadpool, Max Payne, Braid, Prototype 1, Infamous 1 & 2, God of War, Amnesia 1 & 2.....

Your turn again.
Pretty sure Legend of Zelda is Asian and the protagonist in Far Cry 4 is Indian according to his name. RPGs like Mass Effect don't count.

Shahkulu101
06-11-2014, 11:00 PM
If you don't care, fine. But please don't dismiss the opinions of those who do. I believe entertainment can be a powerful tool in shaping our reality. It's important for me, as a bisexual woman (let alone someone who isn't white like I am) to have characters I can relate to in media. It's disturbing to me how many men say they couldn't imagine themselves playing as a female character, without even considering us female gamers barely have a choice.

Yeah, I think that's ridiculous when guys say they couldn't play as a female - as if they are the only ones who play games. I'd like and welcome a female protagonist, but on the topic of race I can't understand why anybody's skin colour is important to them. But hey if it really is - yeah we could use more ethnic minorities.

Screw it, I've changed my stance on the entire subject.

SixKeys
06-11-2014, 11:01 PM
Of course there are more games under that situation, buy I have some:


TOMB RAIDER, Bayoneta, Ninja Gaiden, BloodRayne, MANY reisdent evil games, all the Onimusha saga, Silent hill 3, Fatal Frame saga , Clock tower saga, Alien Isolation, ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL final fantasy´s, Guilty gear, Killer instinct, Far cry 4, Dragon ball, Saint seiya, Rule of Rose, Tekken saga , Street fighter saga, King of fighters games, Samurai shodown games, Kingdom hearts, Xenosaga, etc, etc

Although would to have a full AC game in which the main character is a woman.

I said white MALE leads.

I'm a bit hesitant to name Japanese games because Japanese people tend to have this weird notion that even if the protagonist is blonde and blue-eyed, they're still Japanese. But if we ARE counting Japanese games:

Silent Hill 1, 2, 4, Downpour, Homecoming & Shattered Memories, every Final Fantasy game ever, the entire Suikoden series, every Dragonball Z game ever....in fact, most of the ones you just named would have a white male lead, unless we think of them as Japanese which can be tricky to deduce in Japanese entertainment.

Megas_Doux
06-11-2014, 11:03 PM
I said white MALE leads.

I'm a bit hesitant to name Japanese games because Japanese people tend to have this weird notion that even if the protagonist is blonde and blue-eyed, they're still Japanese. But if we ARE counting Japanese games:

Silent Hill 1, 2, 4, Downpour, Homecoming & Shattered Memories, every Final Fantasy game ever, the entire Suikoden series, every Dragonball Z game ever....in fact, most of the ones you just named would have a white male lead, unless we think of them as Japanese which can be tricky to deduce in Japanese entertainment.

And listed games, ALL those featuring NON white males as protagonists.

In MANY final fantasy´s , women are protagonists:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/6c/FFX-2_box.jpg

And Goku is not your "average white bearded male" for god´s sake!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

joose_2
06-11-2014, 11:06 PM
I want to play as a female protagonist but I'm not going to act like it's a slap in the face to me if they only make male ones.

Rugterwyper32
06-11-2014, 11:07 PM
America is a country. Europe is a continent. Caucasian means the same thing as white. Eskimo (or Inuit) is a race. Hope that clears things up for you.

I really hate to be "that guy" but... America is not a country. The United States of America IS a country (and I can see why you'd shorted it for convenience reasons) but America refers to the entire continent including Canada, Mexico, Belize, Guatemala (oh how conflicted I feel about this country of mine), and so on.
I just really need to add that, it's always bugged me and right now with me being a nervous mess things such things seem to be bugging me more than usual. Sorry about that.

Anyway, on this topic, I'd certainly love more variety, but also more setting where that variety can be explored in depth through gameplay mechanics. In any case, I feel the issue has multiple angles it can be seen from. Should they have looked at the possibility of a female character from the very beginning? I'd say so. Should they have avoided revolutionary France? I'll say no, being a company of French origins they have probably wanted to do this for a while. Should the next game be in a different location with different ethnic groups? I'm gonna say yes. But there's other important factors here I feel need to be highlighted:

1) Annualization. It's a simple one we all know oh so very well, but with all the constant spending on multiple games being developed at the same time and the amount of money they aim to recoup and earn for each yearly game, reusing animations would be a most. And if they're working on a different engine, it might be they can't reuse models from older characters from the series. People have pointed out how it seems Arno's animations seem like reuses of animations from the Watch Dogs guy, I wouldn't be surprised. And with no playable female characters in that game? That'd do it. It would indeed be more work because there was minimal work to begin with, they're focusing on the actual gameplay promises they've made and they focus all their time on that.

2) No competition. This is a big one. The suits higher up don't really have to worry about quality or public opinion as people will buy the game anyway as there's no other game that offers the experience Assassin's Creed has. They can very easily tell the developers "have this game ready for next year, who cares", because in the end there's no alternatives out there. If you want a historical game where you can explore recreations of fantastic cities throughout history, this is the to-go game. I've seen no other games that do this. Truth be told, I find it surprising. And as things stand right now, they could probably keep making games in the 18th century and as disgruntled as people could be, with no other options the only other possibility would be the series dying and there being no other historical open world adventures like this series.

3) The men in the suits themselves. Ubisoft is a huge ****ing company. Sure, they have moments where they get experimental, but for the most part it's all about "rake up as much money as you want". And they probably still have that mentality that if the game has a female character it'll sell less, obviously untrue but hey, they're businessmen and sometimes it feels the only reality they look at is the one from their bank account. This game has probably been even more expensive than previous games to develop, and if we go by that, that means they'll want devs to play it even safer. And with the element of annualization, EVEN IF the developers really want to add a female character, they have limited time, communication's probably difficult because the team's way too big and things could be disjointed if they want to add more into it and while sure, it could take just one or two days, the way the series probably is and how ambitious their goals are, those one or two days could be a problem.

We all know that this series has a problem with being overambitious, to put it lightly. Combine that with the big corporate outlook of Ubisoft which wants to churn out games as fast as Walmart keeps expanding, things won't work out as well. The series direly needs competition to make them step up their game and give them more motivation to add more variety to the settings and whatnot. As of right now, they can easily keep this up and it's either only this historical game or none at all, variety or not. I don't mind the characters as they are, personally, and I'd appreciate more variety, but there's many factors to take into account. The next game would be more likely to have some sort of variety in that sense because they'll have assets to reuse based around the current engine and expenses won't be as high, probably, but as for this game, it is how it is.

I don't even know where I was going with this, my train of thought kept going berserk and I think it got derailed somewhere along the way.

SixKeys
06-11-2014, 11:07 PM
And listed games, ALL those featuring NON white males as protagonists.

In MANY final fantasy´s , women are protagonists:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/6c/FFX-2_box.jpg

Okay, I'll give you Final Fantasy because there are so many godd@mn FF games by now I've lost track.

Which games have I listed that feature non-white male leads?

Megas_Doux
06-11-2014, 11:12 PM
Okay, I'll give you Final Fantasy because there are so many godd@mn FF games by now I've lost track.
Which games have I listed that feature non-white male leads


You? many!!!!

Even though you asked Jexx and not me about games featuring "non white male" as protagonists, I wrote some. And I understand your point on the trend of "of white male leading", but there are many games that do NOT follow that.


And Goku is not your average white guy.....

SixKeys
06-11-2014, 11:13 PM
I really hate to be "that guy" but... America is not a country. The United States of America IS a country (and I can see why you'd shorted it for convenience reasons) but America refers to the entire continent including Canada, Mexico, Belize, Guatemala (oh how conflicted I feel about this country of mine), and so on.
I just really need to add that, it's always bugged me and right now with me being a nervous mess things such things seem to be bugging me more than usual. Sorry about that.


I thought about adding that disclaimer, but when speaking about non-US America, they tend to refer to them as "the Americas". Technically you're right though.

As for all the reasons you listed, I completely understand Ubi has their reasons to keep churning out games with white male leads (while leaving the minorities for handhelds or DLC or even multiplayer). They're within their rights to tell whatever stories they want to, but as consumers, we also have the right to call them out when their reasons sound like flimsy excuses. There is no good reason not to have at least one playable female assassin in Unity. They even said it themselves, the only thing stopping them was a lack of time/resources. Okay then, if that's really the only reason, delay the game. Make time. But of course they're not going to do that.

Rugterwyper32
06-11-2014, 11:14 PM
Goku is by all means a symbol of many Mexican and Guatemalan street food places, as far as I'm aware. You see this sort of stuff on the streets.

http://i648.photobucket.com/albums/uu206/Sonic_X88/Otros/298199_177281399012143_169232409817.jpg

SixKeys
06-11-2014, 11:16 PM
You? many!!!!

Even though you asked Jexx and not me about games featuring "non white male" as protagonists, I wrote some. And I understand your point on the trend of "of white male leading", but there are many games that do NOT follow that.

And Goku is not your average white guy.....

Like I said, Japanese games are a bit iffy because brown people are extremely rare in Japanese entertainment and everyone is assumed to be Japanese even if they have white skin, blonde hair and blue eyes. All I know is that if I see a character whose skin is white, I'm going to think they're Caucasian until proven otherwise.

Seriously, which games did I list that don't feature white male protagonists? I'm happy to be corrected if I make mistakes.

Jayden_TSoni
06-11-2014, 11:16 PM
Hi God, can you stop this? Thanks.

Jexx21
06-11-2014, 11:17 PM
also Japanese people are fairly light skinned so I think it's fair to assume that in any Japanese game series (that falls within a certain style, usually Nintendo) that the characters are Japanese, unless otherwise stated.

SixKeys
06-11-2014, 11:17 PM
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-vOyvUSWomK8/UoNW0fBk4wI/AAAAAAAAAeo/-UCJZocAZBI/s1600/Taptrip+Goku+Super+Sayajin.jpg

Pictured above: an average Japanese person.

Jexx21
06-11-2014, 11:18 PM
Like I said, Japanese games are a bit iffy because brown people are extremely rare in Japanese entertainment and everyone is assumed to be Japanese even if they have white skin, blonde hair and blue eyes. All I know is that if I see a character whose skin is white, I'm going to think they're Caucasian until proven otherwise.

Seriously, which games did I list that don't feature white male protagonists? I'm happy to be corrected if I make mistakes.
Ajay in Far Cry 4 is Indian.

BATISTABUS
06-11-2014, 11:20 PM
The problem isn't that they were lazy, which is what "too much work" seems to imply. The point is that it would take a significant amount of time and resources, both of which have been given in limited amounts to the development team. Even if they did add female characters, it's not like they'd be meaningful protagonists with back-stories and real struggles...they'd just be shells for players that exist while you play Arno. The current co-op characters are literally skins that slide over a copy of Arno's model and animations. I'm all for improved female representation in games, but I would prefer that be implemented in a more meaningful way.

SixKeys
06-11-2014, 11:20 PM
Ajay in Far Cry 4 is Indian.

My bad then.

ze_topazio
06-11-2014, 11:21 PM
Jesus Amancio, that was a terrible explanation, "creative reasons" would have been good enough, but that half-assed explanation just reeked of "females ain't cool and don't sell".

Shahkulu101
06-11-2014, 11:22 PM
The problem isn't that they were lazy, which is what "too much work" seems to imply. The point is that it would take a significant amount of time and resources, both of which have been given in limited amounts to the development team. Even if they did add female characters, it's not like they'd be meaningful protagonists with back-stories and real struggles...they'd just be shells for players that exist while you play Arno. The current co-op characters are literally skins that slide over a copy of Arno's model and animations. I'm all for improved female representation in games, but I would prefer that be implemented in a more meaningful way.

^ Dis yo

SixKeys
06-11-2014, 11:25 PM
The problem isn't that they were lazy, which is what "too much work" seems to imply. The point is that it would take a significant amount of time and resources, both of which have been given in limited amounts to the development team. Even if they did add female characters, it's not like they'd be meaningful protagonists with back-stories and real struggles...they'd just be shells for players that exist while you play Arno. The current co-op characters are literally skins that slide over a copy of Arno's model and animations. I'm all for improved female representation in games, but I would prefer that be implemented in a more meaningful way.

I know we're playing as Arno no matter who other people in the game see us as, but it's about representation in general. Even if I have to play as a male, it would feel so great to see one of my teammates be an ***-kicking girl. "Oh cool, women can be badass assassins too!" The marketing right now is telling me that only men made an impact in the French revolution and that assassins were a guys-only club. Even though back in ACB I could recruit women to my brotherhood and watch them beat up Templars, I can't do that in Unity, four years later. That just makes it seem like women have taken a backseat in the AC universe and are stuck doing girl things at home while all the boys go on adventures.

silvermercy
06-11-2014, 11:28 PM
I'm female myself and couldn't care less?? lol I'm sure there will be more in the future anyway. Besides, AC is not just ANY game that can easily feature female heroines. It's a historical game which, be default, it should be expected that it features more men in such roles rather than women. Adding a female protagonist just for the sake of it could easily destroy the plot and the game.

Not that I wouldn't want to see more females in general. I only make exception for AC and its protagonists.

Megas_Doux
06-11-2014, 11:29 PM
Like I said, Japanese games are a bit iffy because brown people are extremely rare in Japanese entertainment and everyone is assumed to be Japanese even if they have white skin, blonde hair and blue eyes. All I know is that if I see a character whose skin is white, I'm going to think they're Caucasian until proven otherwise.

Seriously, which games did I list that don't feature white male protagonists? I'm happy to be corrected if I make mistakes.

I just "re" saw the question, and miss understood it, my bad. However this is the "issue" they have:

In terms on being "white", there is more than just the colour or the skin, it also involves FACIAL STRUCTURES also..... MANY japanese have or are drawn with paler kin than me and others considered white, just like Cristiano Ronaldo for instance, and yet their features are from any given japanese.


To ilustrate my point, this is a draw of an european characters, called Van Hohenheim, in a pretty famous manga:

http://ginnodangan.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/fma36-12.jpg

This is a japanese guy with red hair and blue eyes:

http://www.pageresource.com/wallpapers/wallpaper/final-fantasy_408544.jpg


So why is that they draw japanase characters with "non japanese attributes "?????????????????????????? Like GOKU included!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Many have a theory, although is NOT a politically correct one....

Slaign
06-11-2014, 11:31 PM
So, I saw this article today:

http://www.gametrailers.com/news-post/75736/assassins-creed-unity-wont-have-female-assassins

The relevant bit is this:


The reason for the omission is because of "the reality of production."

"It's double the animations, it's double the voices, all that stuff and double the visual assets," said Amancio. "Especially because we have customizable assassins. It was really a lot of extra production work."

The decision not to have female characters is disappointing, but acceptable. If everyone's going to be Arno, I'm guessing it's because Co-op gameplay still revolves around Arno's story. There are probably going to be cutscenes featuring Arno, and they wanted everyone to feel like they are playing the lead. It also wouldn't really be fair if, say, the host had to play as Arno while everyone else got fully customizable characters.

It's a design decision, and that's fine. What's really annoying, however, is that's not the excuse given. The excuse given is patronizing nonsense. It comes across as "Oh, we'd have really liked to do that, but it was just too hard." That's BS.

See, the thing is, there is no such thing as just "too much work." That's only half the sentiment. Are you trying to convince me that it's too much work to be possible? That it's an insurmountable task? I don't think so. We all know how much money is poured into these games. We also know that a team developing an Assassin's Creed game can surely secure the budget for whatever they deem necessary.

Oh, 8000 animations? Sounds like a lot. Maybe take a couple hundred thousand out of your multi-million dollar promotional budget and hire a few more animators. That's the thing; There isn't some nebulous force telling Ubisoft how many animators they can hire. Ubisoft designed this game and planned it's development. If they wanted to have this feature, they would have had the time or the work force to make it happen.

So the truth of the matter is that the second half of the "Too much work..." sentiment is "...to be worth doing." By citing how much work it would be, they are basically telling people who would have liked to see this feature that they didn't think it was worth the effort to make them happy. That's really lame.

Sure, at the end of the day I wish there were more badass female leads for me to sink my teeth into. I've wanted to play as a female Assassin since I got into the series. I was glad I got to do that as Aveline, and I'd certainly like to do it more. I'd especially like the ability to just make an Assassin of my very own.

But those things aren't demands, just desires. If they aren't in the cards for the game you're developing, that's fine. I'm not going to insist you change your main character's gender to please me, even though the female gender is underrepresented. It's not Ubisoft's job to balance the game industry. So if that's not the direction you decide to take, that's fine, just tell me that isn't the direction you decided to take. Don't make some lame patronizing excuse about how much work it would be and make it sound like the decision was out of your hands.

TLDR: This isn't yet another demand that Ubisoft change their minds and implement female characters in Unity, it's just an appeal that they think about their messaging and make an effort not to be so patronizing.

P.S: Now that you see how much demand there is for female/custom Assassins, maybe consider that for next time? Please?

SpiritOfNevaeh
06-11-2014, 11:32 PM
..... I love FMA lol

Shahkulu101
06-11-2014, 11:33 PM
I know we're playing as Arno no matter who other people in the game see us as, but it's about representation in general. Even if I have to play as a male, it would feel so great to see one of my teammates be an ***-kicking girl. "Oh cool, women can be badass assassins too!" The marketing right now is telling me that only men made an impact in the French revolution and that assassins were a guys-only club. Even though back in ACB I could recruit women to my brotherhood and watch them beat up Templars, I can't do that in Unity, four years later. That just makes it seem like women have taken a backseat in the AC universe and are stuck doing girl things at home while all the boys go on adventures.

I think there's a badass female supporting character in the main narrative anyway, which bears much more significance than some Co-op skin.

Also, Mary Read from ACIV was a badass female character. I don't think Ubi's going backwards because of this one instance.

Hekateras
06-11-2014, 11:33 PM
And let's not forget that ARNO DIDNT' HAVE TO BE A MAN.

Seriously, all these arguments involving "well there aren't any women because the main dude is a man and we can't shelve HIM and the co-op mode is conviently designed so each player plays as this guy dude regardless of whether they want to or not so that means we can't have women either"... So circular. Unless Arno's story hinges on his ability to urinate while standing instead of squatting (possible, but unlikely), there's no reason he couldn't have been a woman to begin with, and it would have fit the theme very well, especially given how much of a role women played in the French Revolution.(And if you're concerned about the way a woman protagonist might have limited the story choices, then bam, simple solution: crossdressing. She'd be able to go all the places a man goes, unquestioned, but double the disguises, double the fun. Like the historical d'Eon de Beaumont, French spy and diplomat and crossdresser.)

Sit down, kids, and let me quote a blog post that summarised it very well.

Women were so, so far from irrelevant in the French Revolution. Women played *central roles* in the French Revolution. One of the most important events at the start of it was the death of a man who was assassinated in his bathtub by a woman who came in and stabbed him with a kitchen knife. If you read her Wikipedia page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlotte_Corday), her reasons for it could make a better Hollywood movie than half of what's on the silver screen.



charlotte corday was executed by guillotine in 1793 for the assassination (WOMAN ASSASSIN RIGHT HERE) of jean paul marat. marat was a radical politician and journalist who was one of the most radical voices of the revolution. she stabbed him to death, in his bath tub. she posthumously name the angel of assassination. she testified that she carried out the assassination alone and that killing that one man would save the lives of 100,000 others.
claire lacombe, or red rosa, was a founding member of the society of revolutionary republican women (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society_of_Revolutionary_Republican_Women) along with pauline leon. the group became so notorious, within just five months, that the national convention specifically banned WOMENS organisations. it was attended by up to 180 women. claire lacombe FOUGHT with the rebels in 1792 at the storming of tuileries where she was SHOT THROUGH THE ARM but carried on fighting anyway which earnt her the name “heroine of august tenth” and for her bravery she was awarded a civic crown. she was arrested in april 1794 and released august 1795.
olympe de gouges was a playwright feminist abolitionist and advocate for the improvement of conditions for slaves in the colonies. she wrote the declaration of the rights of women and the female citizen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_the_Rights_of_Woman_and_the_Female_ Citizen) demanding woman have EQUAL rights to men, she challenged male-female inequality and and the male authority. she was excecuted by guillotine.
pauline leon suggested the a female militia so women could protect their homes from counter revolutionary assaults. she requested that women were given permission to arm themselves with sabers, rifles, pikes and pistols as well as the privilege of drilling under the french guard. the request was denied. she co founded the society of revolutionary republican women with claire lacombe and when it was shut down moved onto be the leader of femmes sans culottes.
theroigne de mericourt in 1789 was caricatured by the parisian royalist press as the female war chief and according to their pamphlets she assaulted the bastille and lead the womens march on versailles, fought soldiers, was to be found where unrest was greatest. by her own accounts she did none of these but did attend debates at the national assembly and in 1792 made a call for the creation of “legions of amazons” in order to protect the revolution. As part of her call, she claimed that the right to bear arms would transform women into citizens. she was arrested, publicly flogged and spent the rest of her life in an asylum.
there’s also the women’s march on versailles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women's_March_to_Versailles) which was one of the earliest AND most significant events in the revolution and began because women were rioting over the high price of bread.
militant women carried the bathtub and blood stained shirt of the assassinated marat as part of his funeral procession.
at the constitution of 1793 women were at the fore of the crown demanding bread and when their cries went unnoticed, the women went on a rampage, “sacking shops, seizing grain and kidnapping officials.”
women had next to no rights PRE revolution but the rise of feminists during the revolution changed things. WOMEN WERE IMPORTANT. WOMEN FOUGHT AND WERE POLITICAL AND PHYSICAL AND WOMEN DID CONTRIBUTE TO THE REVOLUTION ON BOTH SIDE and i didn’t even write about everything. women played a very important role so stop pretending they didn’t. you can read more here (https://chnm.gmu.edu/revolution/chap5a.html) and hell even wikipedia is good on this too.


(source (http://mordanthallion.tumblr.com/post/88496366542/kaytara-art-kaniehtiio-deadsmondmiles))

Oh, and to all the people randomly butting in here and asking for this thread to be closed, or declaring that this discussion is pointless: What could you possibly stand to LOSE from a higher ratio of women and ethnic minorities in AC games? Diversity can only ever enrichen a story. The fact that you feel so threatened by the idea of change in the direction of diversity that you stomp your feet into this thread and demand we stop talking about it - or the fact that you seem to expect people to LISTEN - says things about you that are less than flattering. Here we are discussing a game set in the period of history that essentially sowed the seeds for modern humanism and basic human rights, and you're acting like someone from *before* that time period. It's shameful.

BATISTABUS
06-11-2014, 11:33 PM
I know we're playing as Arno no matter who other people in the game see us as, but it's about representation in general. Even if I have to play as a male, it would feel so great to see one of my teammates be an ***-kicking girl. "Oh cool, women can be badass assassins too!" The marketing right now is telling me that only men made an impact in the French revolution and that assassins were a guys-only club. Even though back in ACB I could recruit women to my brotherhood and watch them beat up Templars, I can't do that in Unity, four years later. That just makes it seem like women have taken a backseat in the AC universe and are stuck doing girl things at home while all the boys go on adventures.
I mean, would you be happy with male animations on a female skin? Maybe they could do that for DLC, but I don't think it's realistic to expect an entire set of animations for a female on the same quality level as Arno.

That is, unless they already have a female protagonist main game in the works...


And let's not forget that ARNO DIDNT' HAVE TO BE A MAN.
I mean...yeah, and that would've been cool, but it's kinda late for that. It's at least somewhat plausible that females could be added as multiplayer characters.

silvermercy
06-11-2014, 11:36 PM
This is a japanese guy with red hair and blue eyes:

http://www.pageresource.com/wallpapers/wallpaper/final-fantasy_408544.jpg
This is Reno Sinclair with Rude (bald guy) from FF7. :D Excuse me while I remember my Reno fangirling days. lol

OK. Continue...

ze_topazio
06-11-2014, 11:37 PM
Somehow this pic feels relevant.

http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BCHWzSjCIAEJmLS.jpg:large


And to be fair, Final Fantasy games take place on fantasy worlds, not on ours, so Asians and Europeans don't exist.




I'm female myself and couldn't care less?? lol I'm sure there will be more in the future anyway. Besides, AC is not just ANY game that can easily feature female heroines. It's a historical game which, be default, it should be expected that it features more men in such roles rather than women. Adding a female protagonist just for the sake of it could easily destroy the plot and the game.

Not that I wouldn't want to see more females in general. I only make exception for AC.

Depends on how they write the story, it would be hard to interact with important historical figures that most likely wouldn't even consider speaking with her of important matters, so a story dealing with politics could be hard, I mean, would Washington or any of the other revolutionary leaders take Connor seriously and ask him to command battalions if he was a women? but another type of story would offer no problem.

Hekateras
06-11-2014, 11:39 PM
I think you may be overexagerrating how differently women move compared to men, possibly as a result of the media's inability to depict us as anything but hip-swaying vixens.

If they'd used male animations on a female model, it might not have been 100% polished but it would have been a lot better than nothing. Especially since, as Ubisoft's old animation supervisor has noted, Aveline's animation had a lot in common with Connors'.

And yeah, obvoiusly it's too late now, but it might not be too late for the next game, which is why we're having this conversation and trying to raise awareness.

Even if they give us a female in the next main game (and there've been rumours about that, I think), that still means I"ll have missed out on the opportunity to play as a female in the French Revolution, and that makes me sad. (Unless they shelve the female into a DLC again... seems to be a bit of a theme.)

SixKeys
06-11-2014, 11:39 PM
I think there's a badass female supporting character in the main narrative anyway, which bears much more significance than some Co-op skin.

Also, Mary Read from ACIV was a badass female character. I don't think Ubi's going backwards because of this one instance.

I don't just want to watch one or two badass female characters. I want to actually play as one, or know that my friends are playing as one. Also, Mary Read was raised as a boy, so even though she was a woman, she was in a male disguise for like 80% of the game. :rolleyes: I like her, but just the fact that we have to flounder for singled-out characters to say "well, so-and-so was a woman in a game with 90% male cast, that's progress, right?" should tell you there's a problem with equal representation.

I'm not asking that they change historical events, but the very concept of an assassin fantasy is about crossing limitations and boundaries set by history. Even though we know history has always been written mostly by men, the fictional assassin group allows writers to circumvent that limitation and make the protagonist, or at least the supporting cast female if they so choose. They're simply not choosing to, and that is part of the problem.

MasterAssasin84
06-11-2014, 11:40 PM
If you don't care, fine. But please don't dismiss the opinions of those who do. I believe entertainment can be a powerful tool in shaping our reality. It's important for me, as a bisexual woman (let alone someone who isn't white like I am) to have characters I can relate to in media. It's disturbing to me how many men say they couldn't imagine themselves playing as a female character, without even considering us female gamers barely have a choice.



Wrong. When the first next-gen AC game is coming out and features even less playable female characters than the last four games in the series, now more than ever there is need for this discussion.



The multiplayer male-to-female character ratio has always been unbalanced. In AC4, there are 16 MP characters and only 5 of those are female. If you count the DLC characters, there's 4 more male characters and 2 females.

The argument "well, here's one person who represents this entire minority group and s/he doesn't mind!" is BS. Jade Raymond doesn't speak for all women any more or less than I do. When you have a growing group of people saying "hey, we think this is a problem and do you think you could address this in your games?", it's ridiculous to march out one person who says otherwise as if that somehow completely invalidates the huge group of people voicing their concerns.




Jade Raymond Represents the brand the IP that was my point as gamer i do not let my political beliefs interfere with my Love for video games, i do not let my political beliefs interfere with my work !! no more than Jade Raymond does not let her beliefs and motivations interfere with her job as Ubisoft senior management !! and in any case why distort history because of a minority of gamers are voicing their opinions on representation ? you would not see a white man running around the country sides of Japan parading as samurai warrior during the shogun era would you ? thats when i would have concerns about the direction of a game if that was the case !! nothing racist about that ...

I play these games for sheer enjoyment not bore myself with political ramifications of the plot and lead character .

Hekateras
06-11-2014, 11:41 PM
Also, silvermercy... if you're a woman, then I'm very sad for you that your education has been poor enough (don't worry, mine's been too) that you honestly believe only men had a say in the French Revolution.

Please read through my previous post and stop buying into this 'it was a men's time' bs. Featuring women in a time set when women caused major society changes (feminism in part takes ROOT during the French Revolution, and that can't have happened without women actively working for it at that time) would not have "killed the plot', it would have been downright expected and would have been true to history and greately enriched the story.

SixKeys
06-11-2014, 11:45 PM
I mean, would you be happy with male animations on a female skin? Maybe they could do that for DLC, but I don't think it's realistic to expect an entire set of animations for a female on the same quality level as Arno.

The multiplayer always managed. Some of the animations are exactly the same, others are just slightly modified. The only real difference you would see is in the walking/running cycle. Even Aveline didn't look that different from Connor when she was doing parkour or kill moves. So I don't buy the excuse that a female character would require a lot more animations than a male one.


I mean...yeah, and that would've been cool, but it's kinda late for that. It's at least somewhat plausible that females could be added as multiplayer characters.

It's also perfectly plausible to have assassin recruits in co-op. The assassins as a group have not discriminated against gender since Al Mualim's time (if even then, I just don't remember seeing any female assassins in AC1). I understand historical reality can't be changed, but we aren't playing a 100% historically accurate game. We're playing a game where people fight against oppression of any kind, including discrimination. The fact that we've had female recruits in the past means it's not implausible at all.

Hekateras
06-11-2014, 11:46 PM
Depends on how they write the story, it would be hard to interact with important historical figures that most likely wouldn't even consider speaking with her of important matters, so a story dealing with politics could be hard, I mean, would Washington or any of the other revolutionary leaders take Connor seriously and ask him to command battalions if he was a women? but another type of story would offer no problem.

Already got that covered, friend.

Behold d'Eon de Beaumont (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevalier_d%27Eon), a historical crossdressing French spy and diplomat who pretended to be a man, then a woman, for long periods of his (her?) life, and was biologically male.
And it tends to be easier for a woman to pass as a man than vice versa, too.

See how neatly it works out? You need her to interact with a character and get him to cooperate, you disguise her as a man. Bam.
You need her to interact with a character and stabbity-stab, you 'disguise' her as a woman and let her walk up to him, underestimated and not taken seriously, and just do it. Bam.

SixKeys
06-11-2014, 11:48 PM
I play these games for sheer enjoyment not bore myself with political ramifications of the plot and lead character .

Then why do we even have discussions on these forums about whether or not the villains in AC are moustache-twirling clichés or which side of the Templar/assassin ideology you would fall on? Isn't that too political? Shouldn't we just enjoy whatever the writers decide to throw at us, regardless of how shallow it might be on an intellectual level?

Hekateras
06-11-2014, 11:48 PM
SixKeys, I'm just going to cling to you as my source of warm fuzzies for this thread. Please continue.

(But as I've said, there woudln't even have been a need to 'rewrite history' to include a female protagonist or female assassins. Women did a lot during the French revolution. Just google it.)

Shahkulu101
06-11-2014, 11:48 PM
I don't just want to watch one or two badass female characters. I want to actually play as one, or know that my friends are playing as one. Also, Mary Read was raised as a boy, so even though she was a woman, she was in a male disguise for like 80% of the game. :rolleyes: I like her, but just the fact that we have to flounder for singled-out characters to say "well, so-and-so was a woman in a game with 90% male cast, that's progress, right?" should tell you there's a problem with equal representation.

I'm not asking that they change historical events, but the very concept of an assassin fantasy is about crossing limitations and boundaries set by history. Even though we know history has always been written mostly by men, the fictional assassin group allows writers to circumvent that limitation and make the protagonist, or at least the supporting cast female if they so choose. They're simply not choosing to, and that is part of the problem.

I know that, but an actual character is more important than a co-op skin you're not even controlling right? So if you're disappointed that you can't see badass Assassin's at work - well you shouldn't be because we will have one that's an actual character. Of course, I acknowledge that female protagonists should be integrated into AC - but we're at a point were progression needs to happen. So little progressions, like strong supporting characters, are far from unimportant.

Hekateras
06-11-2014, 11:50 PM
I play these games for sheer enjoyment not bore myself with political ramifications of the plot and lead character .

The philosophy in the game is deeply political. The settings of the game have all been deeply political, and this one especially so since it is the foundation of Western civilisation as we know it. To not hold it to at least vaguely political standards would be irresponsible.

But by all means, if you play these games for sheer enjoyment and politics plays no role for you, then I'm sure you won't mind it if the pixels on the screen are a woman or a person of colour or a sexual minority. So what are you even doing in this thread?

Megas_Doux
06-11-2014, 11:51 PM
I don't just want to watch one or two badass female characters. I want to actually play as one, or know that my friends are playing as one. Also, Mary Read was raised as a boy, so even though she was a woman, she was in a male disguise for like 80% of the game. :rolleyes: I like her, but just the fact that we have to flounder for singled-out characters to say "well, so-and-so was a woman in a game with 90% male cast, that's progress, right?" should tell you there's a problem with equal representation.

.

Mary read dressed as a man, it is well known.....

ze_topazio
06-11-2014, 11:53 PM
Already got that covered, friend.

Behold d'Eon de Beaumont (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevalier_d%27Eon), a historical crossdressing French spy and diplomat who pretended to be a man, then a woman, for long periods of his (her?) life, and was biologically male.
And it tends to be easier for a woman to pass as a man than vice versa, too.

See how neatly it works out? You need her to interact with a character and get him to cooperate, you disguise her as a man. Bam.
You need her to interact with a character and stabbity-stab, you 'disguise' her as a woman and let her walk up to him, underestimated and not taken seriously, and just do it. Bam.

I guess it depends on how they do it, the seduction moves of Aveline were a cool way of gathering information.

SixKeys
06-11-2014, 11:56 PM
I know that, but an actual character is more important than a co-op skin you're not even controlling right?

We don't know if we're getting actually character development for the co-op assassins. Arno is the only one we know for sure will have some kind of personality. At this stage, all I know is that we're not getting either a well-developed female character nor even a skin. Even ACR's recruits were more balanced than that, seeing as we had male and female recruits with personal stories.

I don't see this as progression, frankly. AC1 had a strong female character: Maria Thorpe. If it wasn't for her female grunts during combat, she totally would have fooled everyone. They didn't give her hip-swaying animations, she was more than a match for Altaïr in physical strength and she wasn't even conventionally pretty. I'd be perfectly happy to see a character like her in co-op.

SixKeys
06-11-2014, 11:57 PM
Mary read dressed as a man, it is well known.....

I know. And?

BATISTABUS
06-11-2014, 11:57 PM
The multiplayer always managed. Some of the animations are exactly the same, others are just slightly modified. The only real difference you would see is in the walking/running cycle. Even Aveline didn't look that different from Connor when she was doing parkour or kill moves. So I don't buy the excuse that a female character would require a lot more animations than a male one.
The multiplayer managed, but the animations in that mode were of a markedly lower quality than the single player. On next gen with a seamless experience, that would be very jarring. I'm not saying that it wouldn't be possible, and I would have liked for them to do it, but it would've been more costly than it was in previous multiplayer versions.


It's also perfectly plausible to have assassin recruits in co-op. The assassins as a group have not discriminated against gender since Al Mualim's time (if even then, I just don't remember seeing any female assassins in AC1). I understand historical reality can't be changed, but we aren't playing a 100% historically accurate game. We're playing a game where people fight against oppression of any kind, including discrimination. The fact that we've had female recruits in the past means it's not implausible at all.
I know, and I agree. I'm just saying that it's too late to make the main character of Unity female (obviously), and that while it would be costly and time consuming, I do think it might be worth pushing for female co-op characters. More so than the first option, at least.

SixKeys
06-12-2014, 12:00 AM
The multiplayer managed, but the animations in that mode were of a markedly lower quality than the single player. On next gen with a seamless experience, that would be very jarring. I'm not saying that it wouldn't be possible, and I would have liked for them to do it, but it would've been more costly than it was in previous multiplayer versions.

I would take a badly animated female character over no female character at all.

And yes, I'm not asking Ubi to change Unity's protagonist this late in the process. Co-op is what I'm pushing for.

silvermercy
06-12-2014, 12:00 AM
Also, silvermercy... if you're a woman, then I'm very sad for you that your education has been poor enough (don't worry, mine's been too) that you honestly believe only men had a say in the French Revolution.

Please read through my previous post and stop buying into this 'it was a men's time' bs. Featuring women in a time set when women caused major society changes (feminism in part takes ROOT during the French Revolution, and that can't have happened without women actively working for it at that time) would not have "killed the plot', it would have been downright expected and would have been true to history and greately enriched the story.
Bolded: No, I NEVER said that. I know that women played major roles in historical events - not just French Rev. And I also know that it wasn't just a "men's time" (even though... it kinda was). But in this PARTICULAR game series (where even male protagonists are criticised constantly for even minor character flaws or how they don't fit into the story) do you really think women would have a better luck? A female character would be hugely more difficult character to bring to life in an appropriate way. Not that they shouldn't try of course!

Hekateras
06-12-2014, 12:01 AM
I guess it depends on how they do it, the seduction moves of Aveline were a cool way of gathering information.

I'm not saying they'd have to go - on the contrary, someone (moderately attractive) who could pass as a man AND a woman, which is really just a matter of changing voice pitch and silhouette (through clothing, an assassin would already be muscular enough, female or male, that htey woudln't have to worry about bulking up the way modern FTM trans men do)... They'd be able to use both roles to their advantage - passing unnoticed in plain sight dressed like a female servant, dressing like an attractive female to distract a man or manipulate him into information... or dress up as a man and be able to enjoy all the benefits (and disadvantages) of being seen as the "stronger" sex.

I'm so frustrated they didn't choose to use all these creative possibilities, especially at a time when it would have been viable and historically accurate and fit the theme.

Megas_Doux
06-12-2014, 12:05 AM
I know. And?

You complained the fact she was dressed as man 80% and well, that was accurate. In fact she was NOT the first nor the last women to do that.....

Look, As I said, the french revolution was an ideal setting to use a female assassin, too bad Ubisoft wasted that opportunity.

Shahkulu101
06-12-2014, 12:05 AM
We don't know if we're getting actually character development for the co-op assassins. Arno is the only one we know for sure will have some kind of personality. At this stage, all I know is that we're not getting either a well-developed female character nor even a skin. Even ACR's recruits were more balanced than that, seeing as we had male and female recruits with personal stories.

I don't see this as progression, frankly. AC1 had a strong female character: Maria Thorpe. If it wasn't for her female grunts during combat, she totally would have fooled everyone. They didn't give her hip-swaying animations, she was more than a match for Altaïr in physical strength and she wasn't even conventionally pretty. I'd be perfectly happy to see a character like her in co-op.

The Co-op Assassins are just Arno with a different face and whatever customizations you've made to him. There are no Co-op Assassins.

Er define conventionally pretty..

Rugterwyper32
06-12-2014, 12:06 AM
I'm guessing that if there's female co-op characters, it'll probably end up being DLC unless this backlash is enough for them to add a female co-op character from here to release.
I do hope they jump into something entirely different for the next few games, though. It's been a long time since we were introduced to Shao Jun, but I'd still be happy to have a game as her. They had a great set-up, really. Ming Dynasty China caught my interest back when I was reading up on it, and they have a great set-up. Seriously, I made such a great mental image of a 13th century Egypt game followed by a 16th century China game and top it off with a 19th century South America (specifically Peru and Ecuador) game. My imagination just flies around too much sometimes.

Hekateras
06-12-2014, 12:07 AM
Bolded: No, I NEVER said that. I know that women played major roles in historical events. And I also know that it wasn't just a "men's time" (even though... it was). But in this PARTICULAR game series (where even male protagonists are criticised constantly for even minor character flaws or how they don't fit into the story) do you really think women would have a better luck? Not that they shouldn't try!


(even though... it was)

Uh, either it WAS "just a men's time" or it wasn't? But okay, point is, there was enough historical precedent that featuring more women wouldn't have been pushing it. And even if there hadn't been, we're already taking departures from reality through the whole sci-fi thing and the general romanticisations of history which mean I haven't yet seen anyone die of parasites in their liver or the general problems of disease and hygiene and poor medical knowledge. (I haven't played Black Flag, does the protagonist ever have problems with scurvy there? Somehow I doubt it...). The game already caters to modern sensibilities to the point of skewing historical accuracy, it wouldn't be a stretch for them to cater to the fact that their *audience* isn't from the late 18th century even if their setting *is*.

But I'm not really sure what you mean by the whole 'criticising them for even minor flaws' thing. There's nothing wrong with criticising the way a character is written. Why would there be anything wrong with female characters getting criticised the same way? First, though, they'd need to actually *exist*.

silvermercy
06-12-2014, 12:14 AM
Uh, either it WAS "just a men's time" or it wasn't? But okay, point is, there was enough historical precedent that featuring more women wouldn't have been pushing it. And even if there hadn't been, we're already taking departures from reality through the whole sci-fi thing and the general romanticisations of history which mean I haven't yet seen anyone die of parasites in their liver or the general problems of disease and hygiene and poor medical knowledge. (I haven't played Black Flag, does the protagonist ever have problems with scurvy there? Somehow I doubt it...). The game already caters to modern sensibilities to the point of skewing historical accuracy, it wouldn't be a stretch for them to cater to the fact that their *audience* isn't from the late 18th century even if their setting *is*
What I meant is... The feminist movement wouldn't have happened if it wasn't a man's world until then? (All around the world, not just French Rev). But at the same time women had great influence in historical events, even though, we can't claim they really did as much as men?? That's a historical fact. I don't know if I'm making sense. It's past midnight here.


But I'm not really sure what you mean by the whole 'criticising them for even minor flaws' thing. There's nothing wrong with criticising the way a character is written. Why would there be anything wrong with female characters getting criticised the same way? First, though, they'd need to actually *exist*.
If you were here around the time of AC3 release and saw all the Connor argument threads you'd understand. Anyway, I don't care either way. I'm off to bed. :)

ze_topazio
06-12-2014, 12:17 AM
You know, a female in the French Revolution would work because it was a time of such confusion nobody would care or even find that strange seeing one running around killing people.

MasterAssasin84
06-12-2014, 12:17 AM
Then why do we even have discussions on these forums about whether or not the villains in AC are moustache-twirling clichés or which side of the Templar/assassin ideology you would fall on? Isn't that too political? Shouldn't we just enjoy whatever the writers decide to throw at us, regardless of how shallow it might be on an intellectual level?

Ok I could not care less about race gender and stereotyping the main character its a game at the end of the day and on the subject of Assassin and Templar ideology these beliefs are always represented in the games.

I am white british and like i said previously if i was playing a game featuring samurai warriors in the shogun era i would expect them to be Japanese/Far eastern. I would be the first to point out a diversive cast of white black and european's made up this band of Samurai's was completely of key because the ethnic majority in Japan during those times was Japanese/South east Asian.

Nothing Racist about that

Its because these days its political correctness gone made !! and its going to kill gaming if writers have to watch their every step because a few get upset about representation when the reality of it was that majority of the class during those times was white Caucasian.

This is not Racist its the truth .

Assassins Creed Black Flag featured a Black Assassin because of the ethnic majority of the Geographical location was Afro/Caribbean. ( people are forgetting freedom cry )

MasterAssasin84
06-12-2014, 12:23 AM
The philosophy in the game is deeply political. The settings of the game have all been deeply political, and this one especially so since it is the foundation of Western civilisation as we know it. To not hold it to at least vaguely political standards would be irresponsible.

But by all means, if you play these games for sheer enjoyment and politics plays no role for you, then I'm sure you won't mind it if the pixels on the screen are a woman or a person of colour or a sexual minority. So what are you even doing in this thread?

Don't tell me what thread i can write on or not right on because you will fail !!

The pointing I'm making is that people are becoming politically correct with the way writers are handling these games !! this may be news to you or maybe you should go back assess your knowledge of Assassins Creed but we have seen Assassins in all shapes and forms.

Ezio - European
Altair - Arabic
Aveline - Black
Connor - Mixed Heritage
Adewale - Afro/Caribbean

So before you bore with the details of your political beliefs just check your facts because your becoming very amusing now or better still of Assassin Creed is becoming a hindrance to you go an hang out in another forum

Slaign
06-12-2014, 12:26 AM
So, I saw this article today:

http://www.gametrailers.com/news-post/75736/assassins-creed-unity-wont-have-female-assassins

The relevant bit is this:



The decision not to have female characters is disappointing, but acceptable. If everyone's going to be Arno, I'm guessing it's because Co-op gameplay still revolves around Arno's story. There are probably going to be cutscenes featuring Arno, and they wanted everyone to feel like they are playing the lead. It also wouldn't really be fair if, say, the host had to play as Arno while everyone else got fully customizable characters.

It's a design decision, and that's fine. What's really annoying, however, is that's not the excuse given. The excuse given is patronizing nonsense. It comes across as "Oh, we'd have really liked to do that, but it was just too hard." That's BS.

See, the thing is, there is no such thing as just "too much work." That's only half the sentiment. Are you trying to convince me that it's too much work to be possible? That it's an insurmountable task? I don't think so. We all know how much money is poured into these games. We also know that a team developing an Assassin's Creed game can surely secure the budget for whatever they deem necessary.

Oh, 8000 animations? Sounds like a lot. Maybe take a couple hundred thousand out of your multi-million dollar promotional budget and hire a few more animators. That's the thing; There isn't some nebulous force telling Ubisoft how many animators they can hire. Ubisoft designed this game and planned it's development. If they wanted to have this feature, they would have had the time or the work force to make it happen.

So the truth of the matter is that the second half of the "Too much work..." sentiment is "...to be worth doing." By citing how much work it would be, they are basically telling people who would have liked to see this feature that they didn't think it was worth the effort to make them happy. That's really lame.

Sure, at the end of the day I wish there were more badass female leads for me to sink my teeth into. I've wanted to play as a female Assassin since I got into the series. I was glad I got to do that as Aveline, and I'd certainly like to do it more. I'd especially like the ability to just make an Assassin of my very own.

But those things aren't demands, just desires. If they aren't in the cards for the game you're developing, that's fine. I'm not going to insist you change your main character's gender to please me, even though the female gender is underrepresented. It's not Ubisoft's job to balance the game industry. So if that's not the direction you decide to take, that's fine, just tell me that isn't the direction you decided to take. Don't make some lame patronizing excuse about how much work it would be and make it sound like the decision was out of your hands.

TLDR: This isn't yet another demand that Ubisoft change their minds and implement female characters in Unity, it's just an appeal that they think about their messaging and make an effort not to be so patronizing.

P.S: Now that you see how much demand there is for female/custom Assassins, maybe consider that for next time? Please?


Err... I intentionally posted this as another thread, because I'm not "petitioning" anyone to change Unity. This wasn't a demand that they deliver what I want. It wasn't about being angry about not getting female characters. It was just about sloppy and patronizing messaging. It's sort of a separate discussion. The realization that Ubisoft clearly doesn't understand the distinction makes me feel sad that my words likely fell on deaf ears.

Anyway, I guess my post is tangentially relevant to this thread, so, the above is my primary thoughts on all this.

SixKeys
06-12-2014, 12:33 AM
Er define conventionally pretty..

The difference between:

http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130504180654/assassinscreedbr/pt/images/3/33/Maria_templar.jpg

and:

http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110818131851/assassinscreed/images/7/75/Acbmpr01courtesan2.jpg

rprkjj
06-12-2014, 12:36 AM
I think Ubisoft should be able to make whatever they want, if it has white male protagonists or not. It's their game, not yours, you haven't paid 60$ for it yet, which would only give you a copy of the game anyway, not a say in what they do. If you don't like it, don't buy it. Vote with your wallet.

adventurewomen
06-12-2014, 12:38 AM
Err... I intentionally posted this as another thread, because I'm not "petitioning" anyone to change Unity. This wasn't a demand that they deliver what I want. It wasn't about being angry about not getting female characters. It was just about sloppy and patronizing messaging. It's sort of a separate discussion. The realization that Ubisoft clearly doesn't understand the distinction makes me feel sad that my words likely fell on deaf ears.

Anyway, I guess my post is tangentially relevant to this thread, so, the above is my primary thoughts on all this.
It's because we have many threads about this and the moderator decided to have this topic in one thread.. it makes sense for it to be this way..

Anyway.. You should play Liberation, Aveline was a sting badass female assassin.

SixKeys
06-12-2014, 12:38 AM
I think Ubisoft should be able to make whatever they want, if it has white male protagonists or not. It's their game, not yours, you haven't paid 60$ for it yet, which would only give you a copy of the game anyway, not a say in what they do. If you don't like it, don't buy it. Vote with your wallet.

Obviously. But if no-one brings up these issues in the first place, things are never going to change.

phoenix-force411
06-12-2014, 12:39 AM
I don't care as long as the game play and story are good. If this was like an RPG stuff where a female or a male protagonist does not affect the main lore of the story in anyway, then a female protagonist or male protagonist would matter.

Lonnie_Jackson
06-12-2014, 12:40 AM
Why is that every Assassin's Creed...::sigh::

Shahkulu101
06-12-2014, 12:40 AM
The difference between:

http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130504180654/assassinscreedbr/pt/images/3/33/Maria_templar.jpg

and:

http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110818131851/assassinscreed/images/7/75/Acbmpr01courtesan2.jpg

Well in my subjective opinion none of those ladies are pretty. But I can see one outfit is more seductive than the other.

rprkjj
06-12-2014, 12:42 AM
Obviously. But if no-one brings up these issues in the first place, things are never going to change.

What are you trying to change? Ubi's desire to make the games they want to? I feel like boycotting things people make because you don't like it is just a lazy alternative to actually making things you do, or encouraging people with the same interests as you to make something someone like you would prefer.

adventurewomen
06-12-2014, 12:49 AM
Why is that every Assassin's Creed...::sigh::
No not every AC..

Did you forget AC Liberation and Aveline? She's an amazing assassin.

SixKeys
06-12-2014, 12:51 AM
What are you trying to change? Ubi's desire to make the games they want to? I feel like boycotting things people make because you don't like it is just a lazy alternative to actually making things you do, or encouraging people with the same interests as you to make something someone like you would prefer.

I'm expressing doubt that these actually ARE the games the devs want to make. Every single year they tell us they were this close to giving us a female protagonist, but somehow magically fell short on time and resources at the last minute. If they really were that determined to tell a story in which females play a part, they would have made it a priority to have those resources at their disposal. But of course it's not a priority. Why? Because the people who run the financial side of things, the people with the real power in the company, have seen some numbers that convinced them that marketing games with female protagonists is not as lucrative as marketing games with Generic Scruffy White Male #782 on the cover. This is not something I'm just pulling out of my ***; there is proof that this happens (http://www.mcvuk.com/news/read/naughty-dog-fought-to-get-ellie-a-starring-role-on-the-last-of-us-cover/0108024) a lot (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/121007-Ken-Levine-on-BioShock-Infinites-Bro-Tastic-Cover-Art).

Slaign
06-12-2014, 12:58 AM
It's because we have many threads about this and the moderator decided to have this topic in one thread.. it makes sense for it to be this way..

Anyway.. You should play Liberation, Aveline was a sting badass female assassin.

I have played Liberation, I specifically mentioned that I enjoyed playing as Aveline and would like to do it more. It really wasn't relevant to my point though. Yea, I agree that having more cool female Assassins to play as would be really, really cool. But my point wasn't about wanting a female character to play. My point was about the excuse of it being to hard being extremely patronizing.

The thing is, they didn't not make female player characters for this game because of the work involved. If they wanted to make female player characters, they would have budgeted for that work. Mr. Amancio saying that the reason female characters aren't in the game is because of how much work it would be is nonsense. There are features in this game that were surely much more work. It's just that they decided that work wasn't worth doing.

If they made a design decision not to include female playable characters because of how co-op interacts with Arno's story, that's totally fine. It's their game to make, and it's their design decision. But just say that, stand behind the decision. Say you didn't include female characters because everyone plays as Arno and Arno is male. That's fine. Don't try to placate people by pretending that you really wanted to do what they wanted but it was so much work that it just wasn't feasible. If they wanted to make a game with female playable characters, they would have.

rprkjj
06-12-2014, 01:00 AM
I'm expressing doubt that these actually ARE the games the devs want to make. Every single year they tell us they were this close to giving us a female protagonist, but somehow magically fell short on time and resources at the last minute. If they really were that determined to tell a story in which females play a part, they would have made it a priority to have those resources at their disposal. But of course it's not a priority. Why? Because the people who run the financial side of things, the people with the real power in the company, have seen some numbers that convinced them that marketing games with female protagonists is not as lucrative as marketing games with Generic Scruffy White Male #782 on the cover. This is not something I'm just pulling out of my ***; there is proof that this happens (http://www.mcvuk.com/news/read/naughty-dog-fought-to-get-ellie-a-starring-role-on-the-last-of-us-cover/0108024) a lot (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/121007-Ken-Levine-on-BioShock-Infinites-Bro-Tastic-Cover-Art).

I think calling it, "magical," is inconsiderate of the work devs do and the constraints they have to work with. Also, maybe it's not a priority of theirs to make a story about a woman? Maybe their priority is to make a good story, which has to coincide with their priority for good gameplay which is probably more important than the story. And if they want to make a white character because they think it'll sell their game more, then that's their choice too. Like I said, vote with your wallet.


I have played Liberation, I specifically mentioned that I enjoyed playing as Aveline and would like to do it more. It really wasn't relevant to my point though. Yea, I agree that having more cool female Assassins to play as would be really, really cool. But my point wasn't about wanting a female character to play. My point was about the excuse of it being to hard being extremely patronizing.

The thing is, they didn't not make female player characters for this game because of the work involved. If they wanted to make female player characters, they would have budgeted for that work. Mr. Amancio saying that the reason female characters aren't in the game is because of how much work it would be is nonsense. There are features in this game that were surely much more work. It's just that they decided that work wasn't worth doing.

If they made a design decision not to include female playable characters because of how co-op interacts with Arno's story, that's totally fine. It's their game to make, and it's their design decision. But just say that, stand behind the decision. Say you didn't include female characters because everyone plays as Arno and Arno is male. That's fine. Don't try to placate people by pretending that you really wanted to do what they wanted but it was so much work that it just wasn't feasible. If they wanted to make a game with female playable characters, they would have.

Amancio actually did say that. Also, if it was an issue of time and resources, then there's no reason why he shouldn't be able to say that too. He's being honest.

SixKeys
06-12-2014, 01:05 AM
I think calling it, "magical," is inconsiderate of the work devs do and the constraints they have to work with. Also, maybe it's not a priority of theirs to make a story about a woman? Maybe their priority is to make a good story, which has to coincide with their priority for good gameplay which is probably more important than the story. And if they want to make a white character because they think it'll sell their game more, then that's their choice too. Like I said, vote with your wallet.

If I boycotted every game because it doesn't have a female lead, I would have nothing to play except Tomb Raider.

rprkjj
06-12-2014, 01:07 AM
If I boycotted every game because it doesn't have a female lead, I would have nothing to play except Tomb Raider.

Like I said, vote with your wallet.

SixKeys
06-12-2014, 01:08 AM
Like I said, vote with your wallet.

But I like games.

rprkjj
06-12-2014, 01:09 AM
But I like games.

Then why are you complaining about lack of representation if you don't care?

SixKeys
06-12-2014, 01:13 AM
Then why are you complaining about lack of representation if you don't care?

What? Who said I didn't care?

I like games, but I would never get to play any if I voted with my wallet and boyotted every game with a male protagonist (aka 99% of them).

rprkjj
06-12-2014, 01:18 AM
What? Who said I didn't care?

I like games, but I would never get to play any if I voted with my wallet and boyotted every game with a male protagonist (aka 99% of them).

If you'll play games despite their misrepresentation of a demographic, then it obviously doesn't matter enough to you, which is why I asked why you were complaining.

SixKeys
06-12-2014, 01:19 AM
https://24.media.tumblr.com/0e7d5aebf7bffcca1c67d22a0e88108f/tumblr_n70rpdANB71r9ee4eo1_1280.jpg

Iiiinn-teresting.

http://www.gameranx.com/updates/id/22530/article/assassin-s-creed-unity-adding-female-assassins-would-only-take-a-day-or-two/

SpiritOfNevaeh
06-12-2014, 01:19 AM
http://37.media.tumblr.com/afbc3c59044e0834666afce16f8db62a/tumblr_n70id7sSZz1ruqlxwo1_500.jpg
http://24.media.tumblr.com/40e5d397f6cbf50f9f81334713ba3ebe/tumblr_n70hkqfbUb1qb9a09o1_500.pnghttp://37.media.tumblr.com/661896c96209d5df0d5278b2f93070e6/tumblr_n6zmmsjomM1r0smpxo1_1280.jpg

Shahkulu101
06-12-2014, 01:19 AM
If that were the case why wouldn't they just add them in? They've already had female Assassins in Brotherhood so why stop now?

I don't believe they wanted to intentionally isolate females.

rprkjj
06-12-2014, 01:20 AM
https://24.media.tumblr.com/0e7d5aebf7bffcca1c67d22a0e88108f/tumblr_n70rpdANB71r9ee4eo1_1280.jpg

Iiiinn-teresting.

It's a different engine then what that animator had to work with, plus Connor didn't have nearly as many customisation options.

SixKeys
06-12-2014, 01:21 AM
If you'll play games despite their misrepresentation of a demographic, then it obviously doesn't matter enough to you, which is why I asked why you were complaining.

Do you eat meat? Do you know that thousands of animals are tortured and killed in inhumane ways for human consumption every day? If you eat meat regardless of that fact, then you obviously condone animal cruelty.

Slaign
06-12-2014, 01:22 AM
Amancio actually did say that. Also, if it was an issue of time and resources, then there's no reason why he shouldn't be able to say that too. He's being honest.

There is no shadow organization telling Ubisoft how many development resources they can use. They decided what game they wanted to make, and alotted for the appropriate resources. If they wanted to create female playable characters, they would have done it. If that meant more animation work, they would have hired or assigned more animators to the project, or alloted for more development time. There is no hard limit on how much effort you can put into a game.

Saying it's to much work is meant as an excuse. It's meant to say "Yeah, we'd really like to do that, but it's just not feasible." It's meant to make it seem as if Ubisoft would have liked to do differently but the decision was out of their hands. That's simply not true. The buck starts and ends at Ubisoft. They and they alone made the decision to make the design choices they did.

It's not like Ubisoft kickstarted Unity and had to rely on the limited budget they brought in to make the game. It's not like we failed to meet a stretch goal. Ubisoft just decided it wasn't worth the time and resources to include this option in the game. Not that they didn't have the time and resources, just that they didn't include it in their plans. They decided it wasn't worth it.

So the point is, you can't make the decision not to include something in the game and then say "Oh, yeah, we wanted to but it was just to hard," and not sound patronizing.

rprkjj
06-12-2014, 01:23 AM
http://37.media.tumblr.com/afbc3c59044e0834666afce16f8db62a/tumblr_n70id7sSZz1ruqlxwo1_500.jpg

http://37.media.tumblr.com/661896c96209d5df0d5278b2f93070e6/tumblr_n6zmmsjomM1r0smpxo1_1280.jpg

http://24.media.tumblr.com/40e5d397f6cbf50f9f81334713ba3ebe/tumblr_n70hkqfbUb1qb9a09o1_500.png

Why would they choose the most famous assassin to be their main character? She's probably going to be in the game anyway.

Rugterwyper32
06-12-2014, 01:23 AM
I'm expressing doubt that these actually ARE the games the devs want to make. Every single year they tell us they were this close to giving us a female protagonist, but somehow magically fell short on time and resources at the last minute. If they really were that determined to tell a story in which females play a part, they would have made it a priority to have those resources at their disposal. But of course it's not a priority. Why? Because the people who run the financial side of things, the people with the real power in the company, have seen some numbers that convinced them that marketing games with female protagonists is not as lucrative as marketing games with Generic Scruffy White Male #782 on the cover. This is not something I'm just pulling out of my ***; there is proof that this happens (http://www.mcvuk.com/news/read/naughty-dog-fought-to-get-ellie-a-starring-role-on-the-last-of-us-cover/0108024) a lot (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/121007-Ken-Levine-on-BioShock-Infinites-Bro-Tastic-Cover-Art).

I can actually agree with this. See, the one case where there's a female protagonist is a low risk, portable game, which it would seem the suits didn't really have a problem it because, let's face it, the Vita still isn't doing that hot and back then Ubisoft was by all means in a nice cozy partnership with Sony which meant that there's the one place they could experiment with it. That's one of the biggest problems of the devs: The men in the suits. You can have developers who want to do something, but the stuff the higher ups have going for them such as deadlines and whatnot can be (and actually are) a noticeable problem that stifles many ideas. With a company as big as Ubisoft, you can expect they'll be really conservative with what they do and play the same hand over and over again trying to make more money rather than let developers experiment with their money maker.
And again, it also brings me back to my point of lack of competition which is another serious issue for this series. There are no alternatives. You want a historical adventure? Well, here's Assassin's Creed and... nothing else. You want to play a different kind of protagonist with a different angle regarding the same events because you don't like the direction Ubisoft took? Tough luck.
I love this series, and I don't hold anything against the devs because I know they're a group of people working their asses off day by day trying to bring the best possible experience they can while pleasing the higher ups, which I'm sure is no easy task. I can understand how things are in this game after learning how the co-op works. The way they mentioned it, it's not even just animating a new female character, it would seem to me that either there was gonna be character selection of sorts, and adding that by now would mean writing another character alongside Arno rather than just being the same character with different voice acting (think Saints Row). Now that'd have been more complicated. That's the only way it would make sense to me with how that co-op is, not just being the story of Arno but being the story of the multiple co-op characters separately. But it's not. That's the way I understand how things could have worked to actually make it so it's not just an avatar you're not even going to see in action.
And I'd like variety in the future, but as it stands, there's no reason for the higher ups to try more variety because with the lack of similar experiences around it's really either this or nothing. I've said it before, I wouldn't be as saddened if this series reached an end if there were more historical adventures that matched the quality of this series, but there aren't. And so there's no reason for the higher ups to consider changes like that to the status quo. Right now, games with the usual character archetype sell, and with nothing to tell them otherwise for the series or to shake up their conventions, then things will stand as they currently are. And the problem? Knowing Ubisoft, the moment this series stops selling amazingly well it'll just fade into oblivion like Prince of Persia. And I'd be sad, because so far this is the one historical adventure experience I know of and there's nothing to cover for it in case it's gone. This is it.

rprkjj
06-12-2014, 01:27 AM
Do you eat meat? Do you know that thousands of animals are tortured and killed in inhumane ways for human consumption every day? If you eat meat regardless of that fact, then you obviously condone animal cruelty.

They're killed quickly from what I know. Also there's a difference between cruelty because of psychopathic tendencies and killing quickly to make food for humans.


There is no shadow organization telling Ubisoft how many development resources they can use. They decided what game they wanted to make, and alotted for the appropriate resources. If they wanted to create female playable characters, they would have done it. If that meant more animation work, they would have hired or assigned more animators to the project, or alloted for more development time. There is no hard limit on how much effort you can put into a game.

Saying it's to much work is meant as an excuse. It's meant to say "Yeah, we'd really like to do that, but it's just not feasible." It's meant to make it seem as if Ubisoft would have liked to do differently but the decision was out of their hands. That's simply not true. The buck starts and ends at Ubisoft. They and they alone made the decision to make the design choices they did.

It's not like Ubisoft kickstarted Unity and had to rely on the limited budget they brought in to make the game. It's not like we failed to meet a stretch goal. Ubisoft just decided it wasn't worth the time and resources to include this option in the game. Not that they didn't have the time and resources, just that they didn't include it in their plans. They decided it wasn't worth it.

So the point is, you can't make the decision not to include something in the game and then say "Oh, yeah, we wanted to but it was just to hard," and not sound patronizing.

I don't think you understand how game development works, albeit neither do I but I doubt it's that cut and dry. I'm sure not everything goes according to plan.

Jexx21
06-12-2014, 01:32 AM
It isn't just animation that they would have to worry about, it would be modifying the shapes of all of Arno's various costumes, which I get the impression are very numerous.

AssassinHMS
06-12-2014, 01:32 AM
They also might not have thought it would make such a big difference or that it would impact the player's experience in a way that justified the extra work.

But I guess it's a big deal after all.

rprkjj
06-12-2014, 01:32 AM
I can actually agree with this. See, the one case where there's a female protagonist is a low risk, portable game, which it would seem the suits didn't really have a problem it because, let's face it, the Vita still isn't doing that hot and back then Ubisoft was by all means in a nice cozy partnership with Sony which meant that there's the one place they could experiment with it. That's one of the biggest problems of the devs: The men in the suits. You can have developers who want to do something, but the stuff the higher ups have going for them such as deadlines and whatnot can be (and actually are) a noticeable problem that stifles many ideas. With a company as big as Ubisoft, you can expect they'll be really conservative with what they do and play the same hand over and over again trying to make more money rather than let developers experiment with their money maker.
And again, it also brings me back to my point of lack of competition which is another serious issue for this series. There are no alternatives. You want a historical adventure? Well, here's Assassin's Creed and... nothing else. You want to play a different kind of protagonist with a different angle regarding the same events because you don't like the direction Ubisoft took? Tough luck.
I love this series, and I don't hold anything against the devs because I know they're a group of people working their asses off day by day trying to bring the best possible experience they can while pleasing the higher ups, which I'm sure is no easy task. I can understand how things are in this game after learning how the co-op works. The way they mentioned it, it's not even just animating a new female character, it would seem to me that either there was gonna be character selection of sorts, and adding that by now would mean writing another character alongside Arno rather than just being the same character with different voice acting (think Saints Row). Now that'd have been more complicated. That's the only way it would make sense to me with how that co-op is, not just being the story of Arno but being the story of the multiple co-op characters separately. But it's not. That's the way I understand how things could have worked to actually make it so it's not just an avatar you're not even going to see in action.
And I'd like variety in the future, but as it stands, there's no reason for the higher ups to try more variety because with the lack of similar experiences around it's really either this or nothing. I've said it before, I wouldn't be as saddened if this series reached an end if there were more historical adventures that matched the quality of this series, but there aren't. And so there's no reason for the higher ups to consider changes like that to the status quo. Right now, games with the usual character archetype sell, and with nothing to tell them otherwise for the series or to shake up their conventions, then things will stand as they currently are. And the problem? Knowing Ubisoft, the moment this series stops selling amazingly well it'll just fade into oblivion like Prince of Persia. And I'd be sad, because so far this is the one historical adventure experience I know of and there's nothing to cover for it in case it's gone. This is it.

There's men in suits because the devs wanted more money for their project. Also whose to say that the devs wanted to experiment with their projects every time and the game the suits want are the polar opposite of what the devs want?

SixKeys
06-12-2014, 01:39 AM
They're killed quickly from what I know. Also there's a difference between cruelty because of psychopathic tendencies and killing quickly to make food for humans.

Ever heard of forced feeding? Or factory-farming?

"Broiler-chicken facilities tend to be extremely overcrowded, with tens of thousands of birds crammed into a single closed broiler house. Each chicken is given less than a square foot of space, so hardly any floor is actually visible. The birds are unable to roam, to scratch, or, indeed, to avoid each other at all. Their instinct to live in a hierarchical community is thwarted, and social tension results. Chickens living in these stressful conditions will peck and fight with each other, which has led chicken producers to the “solution” of debeaking chicks shortly after they hatch in order to minimize damage. This debeaking process, like much else in factory farming, is run assembly-line fashion, without anesthesia; the chicks are placed beak-first into an apparatus that quickly cuts the tips off the beaks with a hot blade."

http://advocacy.britannica.com/blog/advocacy/2007/05/the-difficult-lives-and-deaths-of-factory-farmed-chickens/

That's all I'm gonna say before this thread turns even more depressing than it already has. Just so long as we both acknowledge there are certain evils we allow to exist for the sake of our own convenience.

Shahkulu101
06-12-2014, 01:41 AM
^ Jesus Christ that horrible.

But KFC...I just can't resist. Seriously though, god damn that's disturbing. ****.

Slaign
06-12-2014, 01:43 AM
I don't think you understand how game development works, albeit neither do I but I doubt it's that cut and dry. I'm sure not everything goes according to plan.

Except that there are plenty of games with both male and female player animations. It's not like no one has cracked the code on how to do both. If Ubisoft wanted to make a game where you could play as a female assassin, they would have done it. They would have planned it from conception. They would have alotted the necessary resources. They would have hired the necessary people, planned for the necessary time. Just like they planned the resources for a new next gen engine, they planned the resources for a co-op mode, they planned the resources to model Paris.

If they wanted female characters, it would be just another item on the docket, planned for and budgetted for appropriately. I doubt very much that they always planned and desired to have female characters in co-op and then suddenly found they didn't have the resources to deliver. If that were the case, the game would have been delayed, like every other game that finds itself running up against a tight deadline they cannot meet.

Don't believe me? See the quotes from other animators above. One of whom worked on Assassin's Creed. They seem to think allocating these resources wouldn't have been an overwhelming task.

The point is, they can make whatever design decisions they feel is appropriate for their game. They just need to own those decisions. not try to play it off as if the effort involved took it out of their hands and they, like us, would have really liked to see things be different too. If they wanted things to be different, they would be, and when they say otherwise they will be called out for their BS, like they have been.

I-Like-Pie45
06-12-2014, 01:44 AM
JESUS CHRIST SIXKEYS I AM EATING MCNUGGETS RIGHT NOW AND DIPPING THEM TENDERLY IN BBQ SAUCE COULDN'T YOU HAVE WAITED AT LEAST UNTIL AFTER DINNER TO POST THAT

----

NO H&K FOR YOU - S, wo RC

rprkjj
06-12-2014, 01:49 AM
Ever heard of forced feeding? Or factory-farming?

"Broiler-chicken facilities tend to be extremely overcrowded, with tens of thousands of birds crammed into a single closed broiler house. Each chicken is given less than a square foot of space, so hardly any floor is actually visible. The birds are unable to roam, to scratch, or, indeed, to avoid each other at all. Their instinct to live in a hierarchical community is thwarted, and social tension results. Chickens living in these stressful conditions will peck and fight with each other, which has led chicken producers to the “solution” of debeaking chicks shortly after they hatch in order to minimize damage. This debeaking process, like much else in factory farming, is run assembly-line fashion, without anesthesia; the chicks are placed beak-first into an apparatus that quickly cuts the tips off the beaks with a hot blade."

http://advocacy.britannica.com/blog/advocacy/2007/05/the-difficult-lives-and-deaths-of-factory-farmed-chickens/

That's all I'm gonna say before this thread turns even more depressing than it already has. Just so long as we both acknowledge there are certain evils we allow to exist for the sake of our own convenience.

Sorry, I didn't know that. But I don't find that comparable to misrepresentation in art.

rprkjj
06-12-2014, 01:54 AM
Except that there are plenty of games with both male and female player animations. It's not like no one has cracked the code on how to do both. If Ubisoft wanted to make a game where you could play as a female assassin, they would have done it. They would have planned it from conception. They would have alotted the necessary resources. They would have hired the necessary people, planned for the necessary time. Just like they planned the resources for a new next gen engine, they planned the resources for a co-op mode, they planned the resources to model Paris.

If they wanted female characters, it would be just another item on the docket, planned for and budgetted for appropriately. I doubt very much that they always planned and desired to have female characters in co-op and then suddenly found they didn't have the resources to deliver. If that were the case, the game would have been delayed, like every other game that finds itself running up against a tight deadline they cannot meet.

Don't believe me? See the quotes from other animators above. One of whom worked on Assassin's Creed. They seem to think allocating these resources wouldn't have been an overwhelming task.

The point is, they can make whatever design decisions they feel is appropriate for their game. They just need to own those decisions. not try to play it off as if the effort involved took it out of their hands and they, like us, would have really liked to see things be different too. If they wanted things to be different, they would be, and when they say otherwise they will be called out for their BS, like they have been.

Like I said, what that animator was working on was a lot different then what Ubi is. Also like I said, I doubt everything goes perfectly. Also I dont think female characters were as important as recreating the city, especially not enough to delay the game.

AssassinHMS
06-12-2014, 01:54 AM
^ Jesus Christ that horrible.

But KFC...I just can't resist. Seriously though, god damn that's disturbing. ****.

It's nature. There are no rules. It's just as disturbing as anything else.

So there is no reason to feel bad or guilty.

Slaign
06-12-2014, 01:56 AM
Sorry, I didn't know that. But I don't find that comparable to misrepresentation in art

That's not the comparison being made. The comparison being made is your willingness to eat meat, even though compassion and empathy would dictate you shouldn't be okay with the practices that bring it to your table. This is being compared to the willingness to play games even though we wish females were better represented. You don't stop eating meat because meat tastes good and you enjoy it. That doesn't mean you endorse mistreating animals. We play games that feature male player characters because we enjoy games, doesn't mean we don't want female characters.

Further, boycotting male led games because we would like to see female representation doesn't make sense. Boycotting male led games would send the message that we don't want games to ever be male led. That's not true. We're fine with male led games. We just also want female protagonists on a more consistent basis. Boycotting male led games would be just as sexist as systematically shying away from female protagonists. We want to play male led games AND female led games. We don't want every game to become female led.

BoBwUzHeRe1138
06-12-2014, 01:56 AM
As a female myself, I honestly have no problem with it. It's not like we have never had female assassins in the game before. So I really don't see why this one game makes a world of difference. :/

That's the entire point. They've NEVER had a female assassin before. Not in a full fledged console release. Aveline is cool, sure. But she was given just a handheld game which inherently means her game is considerably smaller than any of the games featuring male protagonists.

But now we have a game where there's 4 player co-op and not one of them is a female. Yeah yeah, everyone's Arno. Again, that was Ubisoft's decision to do. They didn't HAVE to make everyone Arno. They could have had a co-op that allows you to play as 4 of Arno's Brotherhood but not Arno himself. Those 4 could have consisted of 2 men, 2 women. Or they could have let us completely customize the characters so depending on how you made YOUR co-op avatar, you may wind up with 4 men, 4 women, 3 men/1 woman, 3 women/1 man, etc. But they decided to have everyone play as Arno and said "too much work to include a woman or two."

Problem is... sure, fine, that's an excuse that sort of works except... they could have made Arno a female. Then the excuse would be "too much work to include a man or two so we have 4 co-op women Assassins" which would TOOOOTALLY be an issue because everyone knows that women are completely over-represented in media and you ALWAYS see female heroes, protagonists, and leaders and so 4 women would be TERRIBLE.

In case you couldn't tell, that was sarcasm. There's already so few women in protagonist roles that making the main character in Unity a female would not have ruined everything. They could have had the same personal history, motivations, thoughts, etc. as Arno currently does albeit with a female character. Then having 4 women for co-op wouldn't be an issue because there are already WAY more games with males as heroes and playable characters.

rprkjj
06-12-2014, 01:56 AM
It's nature. There are no rules. It's just as disturbing as anything else.

So there is no reason to feel bad or guilty.

I agree.

LieutenantRex
06-12-2014, 01:57 AM
Who gives a damn? They already made a female protagonist, and she sucked more than Connor. Game studios shouldn't feel pressured into satisfying a political agenda because the masses of feminists nutcases demand it. Man power.

rprkjj
06-12-2014, 01:58 AM
That's the entire point. They've NEVER had a female assassin before. Not in a full fledged console release. Aveline is cool, sure. But she was given just a handheld game which inherently means her game is considerably smaller than any of the games featuring male protagonists.

But now we have a game where there's 4 player co-op and not one of them is a female. Yeah yeah, everyone's Arno. Again, that was Ubisoft's decision to do. They didn't HAVE to make everyone Arno. They could have had a co-op that allows you to play as 4 of Arno's Brotherhood but not Arno himself. Those 4 could have consisted of 2 men, 2 women. Or they could have let us completely customize the characters so depending on how you made YOUR co-op avatar, you may wind up with 4 men, 4 women, 3 men/1 woman, 3 women/1 man, etc. But they decided to have everyone play as Arno and said "too much work to include a woman or two."

Problem is... sure, fine, that's an excuse that sort of works except... they could have made Arno a female. Then the excuse would be "too much work to include a man or two so we have 4 co-op women Assassins" which would TOOOOTALLY be an issue because everyone knows that women are completely over-represented in media and you ALWAYS see female heroes, protagonists, and leaders and so 4 women would be TERRIBLE.

In case you couldn't tell, that was sarcasm. There's already so few women in protagonist roles that making the main character in Unity a female would not have ruined everything. They could have had the same personal history, motivations, thoughts, etc. as Arno currently does albeit with a female character. Then having 4 women for co-op wouldn't be an issue because there are already WAY more games with males as heroes and playable characters.

It was their choice to make Arno male, and their choice to make him translate to co-op. It's their game.

Shahkulu101
06-12-2014, 01:59 AM
It's nature. There are no rules. It's just as disturbing as anything else.

So there is no reason to feel bad or guilty.

I don't feel bad or guilty just disgusted that people torture animals just so it easier to keep them in already torturous conditions...

I mean, how can you NOT disagree with that.

Ureh
06-12-2014, 02:00 AM
JESUS CHRIST SIXKEYS I AM EATING MCNUGGETS RIGHT NOW AND DIPPING THEM TENDERLY IN BBQ SAUCE COULDN'T YOU HAVE WAITED AT LEAST UNTIL AFTER DINNER TO POST THAT

----

NO H&K FOR YOU - S, wo RC

They make those out of chicken bone and viscera, blend them into a smoothie, then shape em into nuggets. Finally fry them, then freeze them. Goes to your local McDs.

SanityAgathion
06-12-2014, 02:00 AM
I thought it's exactly French history that offers excellent background for female assassin's fully fledged story. There were many powerful women roaming courtyards and even battlefields. They were essentially pulling strings at the backstage. Madame de Pompadour, Joan of Ark, Corday, queen Marie Antoinette just from top of my head.

rprkjj
06-12-2014, 02:00 AM
I don't feel bad or guilty just disgusted that people torture animals just so it easier to keep them in already torturous conditions...

I mean, how can you NOT disagree with that.

Because it happens everywhere, except it's not humans that do it. When that happens, people call it nature.

rprkjj
06-12-2014, 02:02 AM
I thought it's exactly French history that offers excellent background for female assassin's fully fledged story. There were many powerful women roaming courtyards and even battlefields. They were essentially pulling strings at the backstage. Madame de Pompadour, Joan of Ark, Corday, queen Marie Antoinette just from top of my head.

Assassin protagonists in AC have traditionally been made up or thinly based off a vague historical person like Ezio.

I-Like-Pie45
06-12-2014, 02:03 AM
they make those out of chicken bone and viscera, blend them into a smoothie, then shape em into nuggets. Finally fry them, then freeze them. Goes to your local mcds.

******* IT

l, RC

AssassinHMS
06-12-2014, 02:04 AM
I agree.

Guilt is just a luxury most people nowadays can afford. It comes from the belief we are superior to nature, that we aren't animals but humans.
Personaly, I find it superficial.

Slaign
06-12-2014, 02:06 AM
Like I said, what that animator was working on was a lot different then what Ubi is. Also like I said, I doubt everything goes perfectly. Also I dont think female characters were as important as recreating the city, especially not enough to delay the game.

Except I didn't say that recreating the city and making female characters was equally important. I said that if female characters were in the plans, they would have been planned for. That means the budget would have allowed for the necessary resources. It wouldn't have been too hard, because they would have planned for that work.

The point is, if Ubisoft wanted female characters in this game, they would be in the game. Period. They would have done what they needed to do to make it work.

Also, animation doesn't change all that much from engine to engine. I'm sure there is more work and detail in the Unity animations as compared to AC3, but it's not like AC3 was 20 years ago, and it's also not like that animator doesn't work currently. In fact, he works at Naughty Dog, which is known for it's visual fidelity. Whatever he is working on is likely equally as impressive as Unity. I think he probably knows a whole lot better than you would. You can rationalize all you want, but you're just making up excuses you find believable, because that's what you want to believe. The information available doesn't support your conclusions though.

Shahkulu101
06-12-2014, 02:06 AM
Because it happens everywhere, except it's not humans that do it. When that happens, people call it nature.

We have the empathy and conscience to make the decision to not torture animals... We aren't simply animals. Not anymore.

Are you seriously condoning that?

rprkjj
06-12-2014, 02:07 AM
Guilt is just a luxury most people nowadays can afford. It comes from the belief we are superior to nature, that we aren't animals but humans.
Personaly, I find it superficial.

I tend to not feel guilty, mostly because I personally don't do anything that would warrant it, and when I do I try to correct it.

AssassinHMS
06-12-2014, 02:09 AM
I don't feel bad or guilty just disgusted that people torture animals just so it easier to keep them in already torturous conditions...

I mean, how can you NOT disagree with that.

Why would you feel disgusted? We are part of nature. Nature is "also" torture and cruelty. Do you believe yourself or any other human being different or powerfull enough to negate its core. It's just an illusion.

rprkjj
06-12-2014, 02:14 AM
Except I didn't say that recreating the city and making female characters was equally important. I said that if female characters were in the plans, they would have been planned for. That means the budget would have allowed for the necessary resources. It wouldn't have been too hard, because they would have planned for that work.

The point is, if Ubisoft wanted female characters in this game, they would be in the game. Period. They would have done what they needed to do to make it work.

Also, animation doesn't change all that much from engine to engine. I'm sure there is more work and detail in the Unity animations as compared to AC3, but it's not like AC3 was 20 years ago, and it's also not like that animator doesn't work currently. In fact, he works at Naughty Dog, which is known for it's visual fidelity. Whatever he is working on is likely equally as impressive as Unity. I think he probably knows a whole lot better than you would. You can rationalize all you want, but you're just making up excuses you find believable, because that's what you want to believe. The information available doesn't support your conclusions though.

Like I said, I doubt everything went perfectly for them, whether planned to the finest detail or not. The absence of female characters can be even more attributed to this due to it not being nearly as important as other things in the game. Also I doubt you know more about computer animation then anyone else so you citing how it's probably not that different doesn't really mean anything. Also, regarding your last couple of sentences, I could say the same about you, based off of what I've been saying.

Shahkulu101
06-12-2014, 02:15 AM
Why would you feel disgusted? We are part of nature. Nature is "also" torture and cruelty. Do you believe yourself or any other human being different or powerfull enough to negate its core. It's just an illusion.

Because unnecessary pain on innocent beings is not ethical and we can stop barbaric thinking. Why the hell do people say "It's the 21st century"?

Because the human race has advanced and we no longer cling on to our horrible past. That's why racism has been lessened to a point where different races can co-exist in society. That's why we no longer feed people to lions as sport.

Humans are capable of changing things for the better.

rprkjj
06-12-2014, 02:17 AM
Because unnecessary pain on innocent beings is not ethical and we can stop barbaric thinking. Why the hell do people say "It's the 21st century"?

Because the human race has advanced and we no longer cling on to our horrible past. That's why racism has been lessened to a point where different races can co-exist in society. That's why we no longer feed people to lions as sport.

Humans are capable of changing things for the better.

Humanity cherry picks what they want to be ethical about. It's sad but true.

BoBwUzHeRe1138
06-12-2014, 02:19 AM
No... it's not natural what we do to animals. We're intelligent but that doesn't mean we need to torture them, especially because of said intelligence. We have the power of reasoning that is better than every other animal with our closest ancestors being closest to our intelligence.

We understand that torturing them brings them pain and that they shouldn't have to endure that kind of abuse. Other animals do not have the same reasoning or logic that humans do so any abuse in the rest of the animal kingdom isn't as comparable. There's a reason why a child doing something illegal is looked at completely differently than a full grown adult -- it's inherently different. Same thing between humans and other animals. We're animals, it's nature to eat other animals but we have the ability to artificially grow meat, it may not taste great now but it will eventually, which comes from our intelligence. We're capable of overcoming hunger without the need of harming other animals. Even people who eat meat understand that there's no need or reason to abuse animals in order to "sustain" us because we're not in any danger.

So yeah, you should feel disgusted. I feel guilty when I eat meat (at least in the back of my mind) because I know it was most likely a tortured animal. I don't have the willpower to be a vegan or vegetarian which is why I can't wait for science to get us artificial meat that tastes just like the real thing. And once we have that, farms will have to go.

Shahkulu101
06-12-2014, 02:20 AM
Humanity cherry picks what they want to be ethical about. It's sad but true.

I know that - but we've still advanced as a society and are physically capable of stopping, say, unnecessary torture.

You're really going a little too deep here.

JustPlainQuirky
06-12-2014, 02:20 AM
How did this thread go from women petition to animal mistreatment?

Syler99
06-12-2014, 02:21 AM
Thanks ubi for yet again telling me my money isn't worth anything to you! Such lame excuses with all the fem npcs you make you can use one of their bodies and you know dress them like the male assassins wow! I just solved your problem! Now where's my check? Now why don't you tell your fem player base and the men who actually prefer playing as women why generic dude 90,000,000,000 and his triplet friends are so much more "worthy" cuz really its gone from girls are unrealistic, its a dude fest, and now its fallen to we're lazy what new excuse will you surprise us with next? Men reproduce A-sexually?

Rugterwyper32
06-12-2014, 02:22 AM
How did this thread go from women petition to animal mistreatment?

This topic is too far gone

AssassinHMS
06-12-2014, 02:22 AM
I tend to not feel guilty, mostly because I personally don't do anything that would warrant it, and when I do I try to correct it.

Yes, that's the guilt worth having. The realistic and personal one. I think that behavior you describe is healthy and not pointless at all because it leads to improvement (which is mostly subjective but still improvement nevertheless)

rprkjj
06-12-2014, 02:23 AM
No... it's not natural what we do to animals. We're intelligent but that doesn't mean we need to torture them, especially because of said intelligence. We have the power of reasoning that is better than every other animal with our closest ancestors being closest to our intelligence.

We understand that torturing them brings them pain and that they shouldn't have to endure that kind of abuse. Other animals do not have the same reasoning or logic that humans do so any abuse in the rest of the animal kingdom isn't as comparable. There's a reason why a child doing something illegal is looked at completely differently than a full grown adult -- it's inherently different. Same thing between humans and other animals. We're animals, it's nature to eat other animals but we have the ability to artificially grow meat, it may not taste great now but it will eventually, which comes from our intelligence. We're capable of overcoming hunger without the need of harming other animals. Even people who eat meat understand that there's no need or reason to abuse animals in order to "sustain" us because we're not in any danger.

So yeah, you should feel disgusted. I feel guilty when I eat meat (at least in the back of my mind) because I know it was most likely a tortured animal. I don't have the willpower to be a vegan or vegetarian which is why I can't wait for science to get us artificial meat that tastes just like the real thing. And once we have that, farms will have to go.

Artificial meat is worse for you. Although I'm in the same boat as you for your last 2 sentences. Except I'd prefer meat equivalent in healthiness. But you also have to take in account animal overpopulation and starving.

DinoSteve1
06-12-2014, 02:25 AM
lol this thread is hilarious.

rprkjj
06-12-2014, 02:26 AM
I know that - but we've still advanced as a society and are physically capable of stopping, say, unnecessary torture.

You're really going a little too deep here.

That's evidently not on the list for cherry picking. Although I'd agree it'd be nice if we could get our nutrients in more ethical ways.

rprkjj
06-12-2014, 02:28 AM
Yes, that's the guilt worth having. The realistic and personal one. I think that behavior you describe is healthy and not pointless at all because it leads to improvement (which is mostly subjective but still improvement nevertheless)

I wish more people thought that way. It would lead to a significantly less amount of annoying people.

rprkjj
06-12-2014, 02:29 AM
lol this thread is hilarious.

I'm bored. And hungry.

Edit: Pardon the triple post.

Shahkulu101
06-12-2014, 02:30 AM
Just to clarify I don't feel guilty or disgusted when eating meat - if it's KFC or a burger from McDonald's I'm on cloud nine.

But I can't condone torture and that's what disturbs me. I will not for a second consider vegetarianism because well...firstly meat is important for a decent diet and it's ****ing amazing.

rprkjj
06-12-2014, 02:31 AM
Just to clarify I don't feel guilty or disgusted when eating meat - if it's KFC or a burger from McDonald's I'm on cloud nine.

But I can't condone torture and that's what disturbs me. I will not for a second consider vegetarianism because well...firstly meat is important for a decent diet and it's ****ing amazing.

Agreed.

AssassinHMS
06-12-2014, 02:35 AM
You are all basing yourselves in one simple premisse - causing "needless" pain or suferring is WRONG.

You forget that is nothing but an assumption.




You're not being rational.

Slaign
06-12-2014, 02:36 AM
Like I said, I doubt everything went perfectly for them, whether planned to the finest detail or not. The absence of female characters can be even more attributed to this due to it not being nearly as important as other things in the game. Also I doubt you know more about computer animation then anyone else so you citing how it's probably not that different doesn't really mean anything. Also, regarding your last couple of sentences, I could say the same about you, based off of what I've been saying.

Except I went to two years of college for computer animation, so there's that.

Legendz54
06-12-2014, 02:37 AM
Just to clarify I don't feel guilty or disgusted when eating meat - if it's KFC or a burger from McDonald's I'm on cloud nine.

But I can't condone torture and that's what disturbs me. I will not for a second consider vegetarianism because well...firstly meat is important for a decent diet and it's ****ing amazing.

Are you kidding me? Meat is disgusting... Its fatty fried crap :( VEGAN LIFE


I am a vegan and look how i turned out :D

http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/XydD9laPFhE/hqdefault.jpg

rprkjj
06-12-2014, 02:42 AM
Except I went to two years of college for computer animation, so there's that.

No offense, but I doubt you worked on something all that similar to AC3 or Unity's engines. Even of you're fresh off that course I'm sure the people who develop those engines have more than 2 years of study under their belt, more likely 2+ years of actual experience. I'm sure you know way more than me in this field, I'm just saying.

DinoSteve1
06-12-2014, 02:42 AM
I'm bored. And hungry.

.
Me too are you going to make anything nice. I was thinking about a cheese toasty.

rprkjj
06-12-2014, 02:43 AM
Me too are you going to make anything nice. I was thinking about a cheese toasty.

What the hell is a cheese toasty?

Rugterwyper32
06-12-2014, 02:45 AM
Me too are you going to make anything nice. I was thinking about a cheese toasty.

You thought you'd get to eat that cheese toast, but...

http://static.tumblr.com/c7f55a82be273d90dd1ae2a9840f4f94/mbb2wao/xHzmnup1h/tumblr_static_it_was_me_dio.jpg

DinoSteve1
06-12-2014, 02:50 AM
What the hell is a cheese toasty?


http://www.wikihow.com/Make-a-Cheese-Toasty-Sandwich


You thought you'd get to eat that cheese toast, but...

http://static.tumblr.com/c7f55a82be273d90dd1ae2a9840f4f94/mbb2wao/xHzmnup1h/tumblr_static_it_was_me_dio.jpg


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOOeVMukDno

Slaign
06-12-2014, 02:53 AM
No offense, but I doubt you worked on something all that similar to AC3 or Unity's engines. Even of you're fresh off that course I'm sure the people who develop those engines have more than 2 years of study under their belt, more likely 2+ years of actual experience. I'm sure you know way more than me in this field, I'm just saying.

No offense taken. You're right. I don't have the same experience as these animators. I'm not working on projects as complex as Unity. I am, however, educated on the subject. Especially in comparison to yourself. I'm telling you, as someone familiar with the foundation of computer animation, that animating in one engine to another is not excessively different. I'm telling you that there is no reason to believe that animating in the Unity engine is significantly more difficult than animating anywhere else. I'm telling you that it would be terrible design sense to create a new engine and make one of it's features be extremely difficult animation processes.

I'm telling you these things, and I have more knowledge to back up my information than you do. Animators in the industry are telling you that Ubisoft's excuses are nonsense, and they have more knowledge to back up their information than either of us. An animator that specifically worked on this series is telling you these excuses are nonsense, and he is the closest to an impartial authority you will find.

You denying all this just because you can rationalize an excuse you can believe in your own head, even without any information or expertise to back up that excuse, is nothing less than willful ignorance.

Shahkulu101
06-12-2014, 02:58 AM
You are all basing yourselves in one simple premisse - causing "needless" pain or suferring is WRONG.

You forget that is nothing but an assumption.




You're not being rational.

I know you're getting at 'Nothing is True' here but if we can stop suffering why not do it? Should we just ignore our duty to be ethical because everything is subjective?

It's okay to say that torture isn't wrong when we're talking about chickens, but when someone you love was being tortured - for no reason whatsoever - the last you'd be doing is pondering the philosophy behind it.

rprkjj
06-12-2014, 02:59 AM
No offense taken. You're right. I don't have the same experience as these animators. I'm not working on projects as complex as Unity. I am, however, educated on the subject. Especially in comparison to yourself. I'm telling you, as someone familiar with the foundation of computer animation, that animating in one engine to another is not excessively different. I'm telling you that there is no reason to believe that animating in the Unity engine is significantly more difficult than animating anywhere else. I'm telling you that it would be terrible design sense to create a new engine and make one of it's features be extremely difficult animation processes.

I'm telling you these things, and I have more knowledge to back up my information than you do. Animators in the industry are telling you that Ubisoft's excuses are nonsense, and they have more knowledge to back up their information than either of us. An animator that specifically worked on this series is telling you these excuses are nonsense, and he is the closest to an impartial authority you will find.

You denying all this just because you can rationalize an excuse you can believe in your own head, even without any information or expertise to back up that excuse, is nothing less than willful ignorance.

Alright, I get your point. I suppose they're just saving face.

Legendz54
06-12-2014, 02:59 AM
I know you're getting at 'Nothing is True' here but if we can stop suffering why not do it? Should we just ignore our duty to be ethical because everything is subjective?

It's okay to say that torture isn't wrong when we're talking about chickens, but when someone you love was being tortured - for no reason whatsoever - the last you'd be doing is pondering the philosophy behind it.

Humans are corrupt greedy bastards that only look out for themselves.

Shahkulu101
06-12-2014, 03:03 AM
Humans are corrupt greedy bastards that only look out for themselves.

Well who doesn't know that...

But we've still advanced to a point were our empathy can define right from wrong and we can step in and do something. Simply accepting things and living in blissful ignorance is a selfish decision.

Things can change, they have.

Legendz54
06-12-2014, 03:10 AM
Well who doesn't know that...

But we've still advanced to a point were our empathy can define right from wrong and we can step in and do something. Simply accepting things and living in blissful ignorance is a selfish decision.

Things can change, they have.

Yes we can now define right from wrong.. But have things really changes from hundreds of years ago? If you saw a homeless man getting beaten up by a group of people would you step in? If you saw a beggar on the street would you give them money?

People talk about it yes.. but barely any step up and oppose the wrong doings of others. Look at this guys social experiment.



http://youtu.be/2Rsc-2oMB0s

Shahkulu101
06-12-2014, 03:12 AM
Good time to leave this thread.

But yes of course things have changed but society still has problems obviously...

JustPlainQuirky
06-12-2014, 03:13 AM
You know it's gone off the wall when some start generalizing to the max and start saying "humans" do this or "society" does that as if statistical experiments accurately represent the majority.

Like seriously.

Pay attention to individuality.

DinoSteve1
06-12-2014, 03:13 AM
Humans are corrupt greedy bastards that only look out for themselves.
lol next you will be telling us water is wet.