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Kimundi
06-11-2014, 02:02 PM
Dear players,

We are extremely happy to reveal the first bits of information about the next series of cards for Might and Magic: Duel of Champions!

The Griffin Bane set will bring 100 new cards to the battleground, introducing new abilities and mechanics, and will be available around mid-July, 2014.

Set around the story of the Griffin Duchy of the Haven faction, Griffin Bane traces the events leading up to the 2nd Blood Moon Eclipse and the invasion of Demons, as military and political factions prepare for a terrible war.

More cards, teasers and details will be revealed very, very soon on our different social channels. Stay tuned to catch them all!


http://static2.cdn.ubi.com/MM-DOC/S06/AngelProtector.png

AlexandrosGray
06-11-2014, 03:15 PM
This is good news, you really seem to be working hard to improve the game.

So Series 6 will be a Haven centered expansion (not surprised), lets hope that no faction will be left behind. On another note: will there be a revision of the cards contained in standard, i.e. will you remove some cards already in it and/or incorporate others from previous sets?

Kimundi
06-11-2014, 03:17 PM
There won't be any changes to the Base Set :)

svilleneuve
06-11-2014, 03:20 PM
We won't be removing cards from standard nor be adding cards from open to standard, but we're looking at multiple angles to make the next meta as balanced as possible.

EvianChrist
06-11-2014, 03:43 PM
Great ! I'm really looking forward this extension.

By the way, is the price of HoN in terms of wildcards or gold going to be lower since there is a new set of cards ? Or is it going to be the same ?
Thanks.

ShadowcatX2000
06-11-2014, 03:44 PM
Will these packs be immediately available for gold, or only for seals initially?

LQDBrunt
06-11-2014, 03:51 PM
Finally some tease :)

Don't mind if i take a guess on this Protector:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/73517044/AngelProtectorguess1.png

Kimundi
06-11-2014, 04:33 PM
Will these packs be immediately available for gold, or only for seals initially?

Just been talking with the producer about that, we should be keeping the same model as Heart of Nightmares (2 weeks seals only and then Gold packs available). But nothing is confirmed yet, it may change!

However, we can already say that Griffin Bane won't be playable during Road 2 Paris in July (to have a fair championship), we'll make an official announcement in due time.

Kimundi
06-11-2014, 04:35 PM
Great ! I'm really looking forward this extension.

By the way, is the price of HoN in terms of wildcards or gold going to be lower since there is a new set of cards ? Or is it going to be the same ?
Thanks.

From what I heard a while back, Wildcard costs for HoN cards should be lower. However I can't confirm anything on that. I've heard nothing about the price of packs, I guess prices have not been decided yet :)

Bazaltovy
06-11-2014, 06:31 PM
Stoked!

Portios86
06-11-2014, 06:47 PM
You bring a bit of hope to this haven player, hopefully, this time you will make it balanced.

Anyway, Iīd love to know a few details about haven cards, that art is simply awesome but it would be great to know how are rebalancing haven here (which is way more important than the art).
As you know, haven canīt rush and its late game is quite weak compared to late game decks (necro, dark magic...) What are you going to do with haven? I assume that haven isnīt going to be a rushy faction so, can we expect a lot of dark ward/canīt be target/spell resist creatures? Perhaps we are finally going to see creatures which are good by themselves but also good in combination with other creatures (haven style) ??
Is haven still going to be played with a mix of creatures, spells and fortunes (look at morgan) ? buildings too? it could be too much.
Anyway, not gonna discuss that, since we already have a lot of threads about haven and we donīt have enough information yet.

Lastly, we havenīt played haven in standard because itīs quite unplayable, I understand that you need to release the new expansion only available by seals, but it should be available for gold in just one week at worst, If you need to make some extra money from this new expansion, why donīt you try with an alt art of a good rare/epic card?

Btw sville, kimmundi, nice to see you working like this, this time I expect the best of you guys. With this and the daily quest fix you are working in the right way, as long as this set brings better balance, specially for haven and sanctuary.

svilleneuve
06-11-2014, 06:47 PM
Finally some tease :)

Don't mind if i take a guess on this Protector:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/73517044/AngelProtectorguess1.png

Close but no cigar. It's actually a rare too. and 4 of those numbers are right (so far, since balancing is still underway)

LQDBrunt
06-11-2014, 06:51 PM
Heh, 4 numbers out of 7, not bad for me :)
This artwork for a rare creature ? wow, cant wait to see epic ones then!

Kimundi
06-11-2014, 07:37 PM
Close but no cigar. It's actually a rare too. and 4 of those numbers are right (so far, since balancing is still underway)

Svilleneuve, the CM Bane. Leaking stuff already :p

svilleneuve
06-11-2014, 07:49 PM
Svilleneuve, the CM Bane. Leaking stuff already :p

You're not really complaining are you :P

budynzmajonezem
06-11-2014, 08:30 PM
Hmm, I wouldn't be so sure about Haven being playable judging by the name of this expansion.

Lionheart18
06-11-2014, 08:41 PM
I find it a bit awkward that an expansion that is, hopefully, meant to make Haven playable again has a name like this one. It seems like even if Haven isn't getting the shaft in terms of cards, then they are being shafted in the fluff. :(

Still, this is great news and that art looks amazing.

svilleneuve
06-11-2014, 09:11 PM
Griffin Bane refers to a storyline in Heroes 6 where the lord of the Griffin duchy and his lineage gets cursed. It's only part of the story :)

Sveltana is a Griffin by the way.

NikolaiT2012
06-11-2014, 09:39 PM
my favorite artwork of the entire game!!

screw the steam sale this is where il spend my not so hard earned bucks!

bwwuuuhhhh
06-12-2014, 12:26 AM
This is rather surprising for a new set to come out so soon after HoN, I am excited, but still weary.

I know Svil/Kimm may not be able to answer this but I shall ask anyways. Unless I am misinformed, you are trying to lead DoC ( or parts of it ) in a different direction in terms of game mechanics. This new set introduces new abilities and mechanics ( actual mechanics? ). Where are you trying to go? What is the big picture? What is the type of gameplay experience you want players to have when playing DoC: GrifB? I know you cannot say specifics, but can you shed light on the general direction you want to go?

I ask this because, at least for me, after each expansion I don't feel like the game is becoming more cohesive but more divisive.

tk;dr What is the design philosophy under employment?

As a side note, it will be interesting to see how Seals play out. Pre-HoN, veteran players had farmed a significant amount of seals/wildcards and were able to ease into HoN rather easily. This time, there is (presumably) no seal bank to rely on. For the vast majority of free paying players however, I suspect there will be frustration.

joejoe19681968
06-12-2014, 06:21 AM
Great news. Nothing like opening new cards!!!

czwartek22
06-12-2014, 08:42 AM
Close but no cigar. It's actually a rare too. and 4 of those numbers are right (so far, since balancing is still underway)

My bet is: 6 cost, 4/1/0 requirements, 2/3/7 stats with "Combat guard 2" and "Cannot be targeted". As a Haven player, I would be happy :).

Stoneofhelp
06-12-2014, 10:17 AM
will we seeing more creatures with leadership? :D

& Any plans to buff Sanctuary in this expansion as well? I use to love sanctuary :D

bvdc
06-12-2014, 10:19 AM
My bet is: 6 cost, 4/1/0 requirements, 2/3/7 stats with "Combat guard 2" and "Cannot be targeted". As a Haven player, I would be happy :).


Cannot be targeted would be too powerfull no :cool: ?
Haven player indeed :rolleyes:

Maerwin
06-12-2014, 11:24 AM
First, this sounds very interesting, wasn't expecting a new expansion until late August/early September!

Second, isn't the 100 card count a bit too high? If you set it to 60-70, you might cut out the inevitable filler cards that you're going to put there (and don't tell me there aren't going to be any :)) It would be better for players and for your sales IMO (I, for one, bought a box of HoN, but after getting 4 Water Flows Freely, 2 Avenge the Fallen and one Ur'Traggal's Bastion in there, I am definitely not going to spend money on this new expansion if it contains more cards like those)

czwartek22
06-12-2014, 12:19 PM
Cannot be targeted would be too powerfull no :cool: ?
Haven player indeed :rolleyes:

Well, I guess without any form of protection against hard removal it wouldn't be played... OK, I can settle for Dark Ward :).

ulpsz
06-12-2014, 03:18 PM
damn and now I was about to quit since I collected 4 of every card..

why so fast??

it's just two months after the last exp...


damn I think I might stick around actually for a bit longer..

talking about new mechanics..you have to add the UNDEAD subtype to most necro creatures (like demons for inferno) so you can create mechanics that affect them all somehow..

don't be so restrictive and narrow with your mechanics...make for example a creature that gets enrage countrs when it takes damge ..or enrage to be able to unlock a certain ability..and so on...
too many expansion and the game is just a bunch of good fundamental ideas wasted on simplistic implementation

svilleneuve
06-12-2014, 06:23 PM
First, this sounds very interesting, wasn't expecting a new expansion until late August/early September!

Second, isn't the 100 card count a bit too high? If you set it to 60-70, you might cut out the inevitable filler cards that you're going to put there (and don't tell me there aren't going to be any :)) It would be better for players and for your sales IMO (I, for one, bought a box of HoN, but after getting 4 Water Flows Freely, 2 Avenge the Fallen and one Ur'Traggal's Bastion in there, I am definitely not going to spend money on this new expansion if it contains more cards like those)

Actually, I think it's the opposite. If you want to make waves, to force a change in the meta, you need more than just a few cards. Otherwise, all you do is slightly change existing deck. Void Rising put a lot of pressure on each card from all 4 original factions. There were only 7 cards for each of those factions, if one of them under performs, the whole faction will under perform.

Portios86
06-12-2014, 07:08 PM
Lets be honest here, the current standard meta is simply bad, in every mean, we even have 2 factions not beeing played. I donīt say underplayed, they arenīt played at all unless you need to do daily quest, and open is a better place to do that.

HoN was so incredibly bad for standard meta that now, Iīm affraid that even a 100 card expansion could be too low, I hope itīs enough for haven/sanctuary. This is not my opinion, this is the truth, "pro" players say there arenīt any competitive haven decks in standard, probably the same for sanctuary. A faction usually has 2 or higher viable, solid decks, but not in standard.

Anyway, svilleneuve, as you know Iīm very interested in haven. I know that you canīt tell us many details of this expansion but, could I ask you something?

Since haven canīt rush anymore, is haven going to be a late game faction like necro and most academy decks? If so, are you aware about haven problems against dark magic and necro creatures with life drain, inmune to retaliation, crippling, and so on...?

svilleneuve
06-12-2014, 08:58 PM
Lets be honest here, the current standard meta is simply bad, in every mean, we even have 2 factions not beeing played. I donīt say underplayed, they arenīt played at all unless you need to do daily quest, and open is a better place to do that.

HoN was so incredibly bad for standard meta that now, Iīm affraid that even a 100 card expansion could be too low, I hope itīs enough for haven/sanctuary. This is not my opinion, this is the truth, "pro" players say there arenīt any competitive haven decks in standard, probably the same for sanctuary. A faction usually has 2 or higher viable, solid decks, but not in standard.

Anyway, svilleneuve, as you know Iīm very interested in haven. I know that you canīt tell us many details of this expansion but, could I ask you something?

Since haven canīt rush anymore, is haven going to be a late game faction like necro and most academy decks? If so, are you aware about haven problems against dark magic and necro creatures with life drain, inmune to retaliation, crippling, and so on...?

Fully aware. We have VIPs testing everything in this set, making sure Haven has its place, as well as Sanctuary. Haven's strategy in GB, while not necessarily rush, is pretty aggressive. We're still making tweaks here and there.

Portios86
06-12-2014, 09:07 PM
Not happy about the VIP tester since they are to blame for this standard meta too (lol Iīm always complaining). Be careful with jkkk, he wants more insect swarms! kidding.
Thx for answering, great to know that you are aware about havenīs weaknesses vs dark magic control decks.

As much as I want haven playable again, I hope you make it as good as every other good faction, not necessarily stronger. hey, but if you canīt make it balanced, then make it stronger :p

svilleneuve
06-13-2014, 01:19 PM
A meta where all factions are equal is close to impossible. In MtG, there's always one or two colors that are stronger than others. That said, all colors are playable in their competitive meta. Our goal isn't to make every single faction equal in power level, as I said, it's close to impossible. Our goal is to make every faction playable in competition.

Also, cut the VIPs some slack :) The group is rather small and they had a LOT to test in a short period of time. To put things in perspective, back in december Ishuma was really dominating and everyone asked for a nerf. Fast-forward a couple of weeks and Ishuma isn't dominating at the moment. If the whole community couldn't predict how the meta would be after a few weeks, how do you expect a few players to predict how a new series is going to be balanced? It doesn't take much in balancing to be wrong, like right now in GB, we have a creature that goes from crap to OP just by changing 1 number. If you ask me, those guys are awesome, they can find the best decks really fast even after a ton of changes and they do a terrific job at balancing this game.

ZergRusher
06-13-2014, 02:14 PM
Finally some tease :)

Don't mind if i take a guess on this Protector:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/73517044/AngelProtectorguess1.png

does sb know if there is a software that helps you create cards? or did he simply have fun with PS/GiMP etc.

czwartek22
06-13-2014, 03:06 PM
Another artwork has been spoiled, this time exclusively for the Polish community. It's the Bloodshark Warrior:

http://imgur.com/N9AtjRG

No stats or abilities known so far.

EvianChrist
06-13-2014, 03:47 PM
Another artwork has been spoiled, this time exclusively for the Polish community. It's the Bloodshark Warrior:

http://imgur.com/N9AtjRG

No stats or abilities known so far.

Another nice artwork !

Beside, i hope the artist(s) behind Anael, chosen of the lights (which is in my opinion the best looking card in the game), Arcane Intuition, Charity, and every other cards with this style is going to work again on this expension. These cards are truly beautiful, and are a real pleasure to look at ! Thanks for his work, by the way.

On, and thanks Kinmundi for answering my question !

Portios86
06-13-2014, 05:11 PM
I canīt see that new art :(

maybe a link, please?

EvianChrist
06-13-2014, 05:16 PM
http://imgur.com/N9AtjRG

Portios86
06-13-2014, 06:07 PM
http://imgur.com/N9AtjRG

Thx a lot!

Looks well, I prefer the protector angel though.

That orc looks like a new enrage / bloodthirst creature.

gabusan
06-14-2014, 01:06 AM
Also, cut the VIPs some slack :) The group is rather small and they had a LOT to test in a short period of time.
Just do what you usually do in these cases: inflate the costs of the cards you did not have time to properly playtest to make they are barely playable. It has worked wonders so far.




To put things in perspective, back in december Ishuma was really dominating and everyone asked for a nerf. Fast-forward a couple of weeks and Ishuma isn't dominating at the moment.
What is this perspective you are talking about? That Ishuma did not need a nerf, even though people thought otherwise? Well, I dont get it, because Ishuma was nerfed after all. And a well deserved nerf it was, it seems some clueless person at the design team did not realize his ability was too powerful to cost just 0. Same goes for Kelthor.


If the whole community couldn't predict how the meta would be after a few weeks, how do you expect a few players to predict how a new series is going to be balanced?
It does not take the whole community, nor a small team of people, to notice at first sight what a terrible failure "Avenge the fallen" was going to be. Just one person reading the card would have been enough. But since you have decided that making bad cards is part of the trade, you intentionally create these from the beggining, knowing full well that they are not going to work. When will the design team just create decent, playable cards and let the players be the ones to decide which ones will they use in their decks?


If you ask me, those guys are awesome, they can find the best decks really fast even after a ton of changes and they do a terrific job at balancing this game.
If I had any say, I would fire them all and get a new team.

DrKitch
06-14-2014, 03:58 PM
from my pov the problem with those "VIPs" is that they (almost) all like to play alone and other people are just a nuisance.

so they steer the meta to endless stall/otk/discard or some other way they don't actually have to fight the enemy. I mean how can throne of renewal not be unique? why are all those "shields" (shield, altar of shadows, celestial armor...) so cheap and able to be put at least 8 (combined) times in decks? why are decks without any creatures (or with as few as ~4) always viable (superior) with every expansion and almost every faction?

because those few people should actually play a single player game and not have influence on 1000s of other players...

yesterday jackpot: my rushy deck meets 3 <bad word> decks in a row, 3 games = 90 minutes...great, like I got 10 hours time to play in a row to just win 5-7 games. even worse in swisses...they need to play 1 card per turn which takes no time, you actually need to play several just to get them sent back to your hand, wiped or made useless...time out guaranteed. you still have 15-20 health and they got maybe 1-5...yet you lose. great system, great meta.

everybody hates those decks, even many people that play them. but they feel like they have to and are pretty much right about it. because a few <bad words> "VIPs" like it and make everybody else suffer through that.

and I'm pretty sure that's a big part of why new players leave fast and old players mostly gave up too. my friendlist has 200+ people in it, at least half of them never reached lvl 20, since I play again I have seen maybe 10-15 of all them online or gain a new level.

and I can predict the new meta already: gimmicky new mechanics that don't stand a chance against before mentioned <bad word> mechanics so our "VIPs" can enjoy their multiplayer turned singleplayer game like always.

p.s.: my experience is from open/weekly...I don't give a flying <bad word> about your <bad word> standard <bad word>! I didn't spent time, money etc. to just have those cards rot in the digital void!

Portios86
06-14-2014, 05:04 PM
There is only one stall deck in standard, dham troll rage deck, and it shouldnīt be there.
However, I think this is not the time or the place to complain about stall decks.
I understand you and I agree, the game shouldnīt be balanced around those few pro players or most new players, but unless we talk about dham mass rage standard deck, stall decks in open are annoying just like ignatius and cassandra are also annoying but faster. To be honest, I donīt care about open balance anymore, standard is the main format Imo, open will die slowly and if it doesnīt die, well, thatīs the place for those solitaire games just like legacy in MTG.

Stoneofhelp
06-15-2014, 08:21 AM
Quick question about the new expansion and swiss rewards because it will affect how I affect my spending right now

I assume 1st prize will be Griffin Bane Super Pack

Will 2nd prize be A) BS2 Pack & Griffin Bane Back,B) Bs2 Pack & Hon Pack, C) Hon Pack & Griffin Bane Pack, or D) some kind of new Emilo's pack for the Base set 2 cards which give you a bit of everything?

& what about the lucky prize?

Bazaltovy
06-15-2014, 11:33 AM
It's amazing how much about balancing I can learn from some people that can't even balance their politeness.

http://boards.420chan.org/vg/src/1401913450732.png

Anyway, Angel Protector has a fantastic artwork, Bloodshark Warrior as well (and I also think he may have either Enrage or Bloodthirst; more preferably the latter, just by looking at him), can't wait to see what will be spoilered next!

xOSHCx
06-15-2014, 07:24 PM
While it's very idiotic to put down everything and everone all the time, I have to agree that the balancing team (whoever is behind it) does a underwhelming job. As a boardgame designer myself, it puzzles me how they even consider some of the cards...

And no, you can't compare this to MtG, as there are thousand of cards, while DoC has only a few (especially in standard). Yeah, MtG was broken from the start, but back in 1993 there was literally nothing when it comes to mechanics and balancing in boardgames. They just had no clue and never thought about the game getting this big. They had no idea ppl would have all the cards available, but nowadays it's a completely different thing and DoC doesn't do something completely new. It shouldn't be a problem to see what's good and what's bad for the game, but somehow they lack this insight.

Cainium
06-15-2014, 08:03 PM
Balancing has just to problems:

- There must be a vision behind it. If developers say a rush&control meta or a rush&stall meta is intended than it's the game. Since the meta is changing with every expansion (depending on which TYPE of decks are present and dominating) there is no clear line WHAT is the goal to reach.
- For which aduience is the balance made? Pros or casuals? If you balance against a Pros players perspective than 4x Cloudshaper on Turn 8/9 seems fine, against a casual players perspective it is just bad. Same goes with double lava spawn on turn one etc. 'cause it needs mostly luck to deal with this situation or such a broken rush deck on both sides of the battlefield.

The second part is very important. You can balance for both at the same time, but the ELO/MMR system MUST differentiate the players that they will NEVER get paired in ANY environment. So player strength would be equal to "deck strength" or at least "hero strength" (most Hakeems/Deleb/Seria/Arianas are all the same), but thats pretty bad matchmaking.

Your "VIPs" can't test everything, but just involve some casual players which aren't top of the ranks what they say about some cards and some combos to get a better view of the whole picture.

Against most decks in the current meta the game is lost if you fall behind early/midgame. And that can happen just of draw luck and that's just bad balancing.

Design and balance of a game is not easy (as a game developer myself i know this), but who says Decay Spitters are to strong for standard, and Lava Spawn/Cloudshapers are not is just, well... again: bad balancing. And that is nothing that can be fixed with a new expansion. It will happen the same as every expansion. Some "over the top" decks will appear which was NEVER seen within testing, NO balancing patch will be made mid-expansion and "the next" shall fix it which will fail again. This was the case since i play this game every expansion i've seen.

So declare the goal, and go for it. But don't "go on" as ever and don't mind about what you are doing.

ShadowcatX2000
06-16-2014, 01:11 PM
As a boardgame designer myself, it puzzles me how they even consider some of the cards...

It is so rare to encounter anyone on the internet who isn't an expert on everything. . .


And no, you can't compare this to MtG, as there are thousand of cards, while DoC has only a few (especially in standard). Yeah, MtG was broken from the start, but back in 1993 there was literally nothing when it comes to mechanics and balancing in boardgames. They just had no clue and never thought about the game getting this big. They had no idea ppl would have all the cards available, but nowadays it's a completely different thing and DoC doesn't do something completely new. It shouldn't be a problem to see what's good and what's bad for the game, but somehow they lack this insight.

Standard in M:tG format has less than 2,000 cards, that is certainly not thousands and while that is significantly more than DoC, the number of competitive decks at the top level is roughly the same, and the card variety amongst those top decks is also roughly the same. That means that DoC has a significantly smaller amount of unplayables.

svilleneuve
06-16-2014, 02:09 PM
I don't know why anyone would want to bash on VIPs without knowing their intent.

Competition doesn't mean broken combo. No VIP wants a dominating deck in the meta because that means that what they'll have to play live soon is gonna be boring as hell.

In a competitive meta, there's 3 deck archetypes that dictates the quality of your matchup. Aggro beats Combo, Combo beats Control, Control beats Aggro. Combo isn't strong enough, then there's nothing to stop Control. The VIPs all know that and they all want to help ensure all three archetypes have shot. My job when it comes to archetypes is to make sure that Combo isn't that easy to play and isn't necessarily bugging low ELO players, it's best for them to face more Aggro decks, then Control decks, then some Combo once in a while.

I'm also there to represent the more casual players, few of our VIPs have any intentions to play those cards just for fun, but they do tell me when a deck is boring to play with or against even if they won with it or against it.

xOSHCx
06-16-2014, 03:19 PM
It is so rare to encounter anyone on the internet who isn't an expert on everything. . .
I agree, but I didn't call me an expert and even if, how would you know? It doesn't matter anyway.



Standard in M:tG format has less than 2,000 cards, that is certainly not thousands and while that is significantly more than DoC, the number of competitive decks at the top level is roughly the same, and the card variety amongst those top decks is also roughly the same. That means that DoC has a significantly smaller amount of unplayables.
Right, it's 2.000 vs 300 (?) and vintage vs open is 10.000 vs 600 (?) and yet MtG is more balanced and they react much faster to problem cards. I'm not saying that wotc are perfect, but when I compare the amount of cards they need to have an eye on, they do a pretty good job. However, they always lacked insight of vintage, that's true.

About the decks, I'm not so sure. Given, I don't know the actual meta there, but I played MtG tournaments from 1994 to 2006 or 2008 and casual from there on and I know what was possible in that time period. The other difference is that DoC is more luck driven than MtG, as single cards (even events!) do end a game very often. DoC is about having the right cards at the right moment, while MtG is more like a building game. Yeah, I know all the combo decks in vintage and yes, you could lose turn 1, but it's by far not as common as ppl want to tell others.

Anyway, it seems ppl compare single cards to a whole meta. I'm talking about the balance of single cards and that's something a balancing team should have in control. I'm not even sure if I wanted a balancing team that decides what will be played in the future, just because they push certain strategys. If you have the cards on a similar power level and push the interaction between them, you'll have a much more complex game without the need of many cards. That's what I call good design.

You can have games like chess (using this as everyone knows it) with only a few rules (cards), but a deep gameplay, or you can have the opposite, many rules that don't help the game. I'm not saying that the DoC team is the worst I've seen, but their work could be improved easily.

Also, if a deck becomes a deck to beat because of a single card that doesn't need others to shine, it's very likely that the card is OP. You shouldn't look at each card in a vacuum only, but you should take this look nonetheless!

gabusan
06-17-2014, 09:38 AM
I'm also there to represent the more casual players, few of our VIPs have any intentions to play those cards just for fun, but they do tell me when a deck is boring to play with or against even if they won with it or against it.

So when they were playing with treasuary, they reported to you having fun? "Wow, I put a location in play! It does nothing with the creatures I have already in play! What a riot! Wait, I just got a crusader treasurer, how lucky of me, I will deploy him in the location instead of that lane that desperately needs a blocker... Now I have 1 more resource for the next turn while my opponent annhiliates me! What a blast!"

Or maybe: "Yo, Sullyvenune, this Earth Growth you designed is a fine card, but I believe it should just affect friendy Earth Creatures, because anchoring all my creatures sounds a bit too op. And it should cost 4 with a requeriment of 4, otherwise they might have it in place in time to prevent an enthrall" and you went "sure thing, lets do that!"?

ulpsz
06-17-2014, 12:58 PM
So when they were playing with treasuary, they reported to you having fun? "Wow, I put a location in play! It does nothing with the creatures I have already in play! What a riot! Wait, I just got a crusader treasurer, how lucky of me, I will deploy him in the location instead of that lane that desperately needs a blocker... Now I have 1 more resource for the next turn while my opponent annhiliates me! What a blast!"

Or maybe: "Yo, Sullyvenune, this Earth Growth you designed is a fine card, but I believe it should just affect friendy Earth Creatures, because anchoring all my creatures sounds a bit too op. And it should cost 4 with a requeriment of 4, otherwise they might have it in place in time to prevent an enthrall" and you went "sure thing, lets do that!"?


+1 hahaah..this simon realy never ceases to contradict himself

ShadowcatX2000
06-17-2014, 02:43 PM
Right, it's 2.000 vs 300 (?) and vintage vs open is 10.000 vs 600 (?) and yet MtG is more balanced and they react much faster to problem cards. I'm not saying that wotc are perfect, but when I compare the amount of cards they need to have an eye on, they do a pretty good job. However, they always lacked insight of vintage, that's true.

Currently, I would say there are roughly the same number of top tier decks in M:tG and DoC, despite Magic having 3x the card pool (comparing standard to standard, of course). Not quite sure how you're saying M:tG is better balanced from that.

But yes, WotC has gotten a lot better about balance over the years. It has been a learning process.


About the decks, I'm not so sure. Given, I don't know the actual meta there, but I played MtG tournaments from 1994 to 2006 or 2008 and casual from there on and I know what was possible in that time period. The other difference is that DoC is more luck driven than MtG, as single cards (even events!) do end a game very often. DoC is about having the right cards at the right moment, while MtG is more like a building game. Yeah, I know all the combo decks in vintage and yes, you could lose turn 1, but it's by far not as common as ppl want to tell others.

After the release of Theros, before the release of Born of the Gods, there was about a 3 month span when there were 2 decks (mono-blue and mono-black) that were Tier 1, and the others were Tier 3, or worse. That meta was terrible, despite having a significant number of cards. Also, remember this was immediately after a gold set (return to ravnica) and it was mono colors that was dominating.


Anyway, it seems ppl compare single cards to a whole meta. I'm talking about the balance of single cards and that's something a balancing team should have in control. I'm not even sure if I wanted a balancing team that decides what will be played in the future, just because they push certain strategys. If you have the cards on a similar power level and push the interaction between them, you'll have a much more complex game without the need of many cards. That's what I call good design.

All games do this. Look at Magic, for example, if they print a vanilla 2/1 for 1 and a vanilla 1/1 for 1 in the same color you don't think they know one will get used and the other won't? Every game has trash cards, every game has some cards that are just flat good and some are bad.

Part of the joy of a card game (maybe not necessarily for you, but for some people) is finding the good cards from the bad cards. Other people enjoy collecting all the cards, doesn't matter if they're weak or strong. Some people enjoy trying to make previously considered bad cards into good cards by finding just the right deck. A good card game puts out cards for everyone, not just the few people who want competitive cards.

czwartek22
06-17-2014, 02:56 PM
Changing topic a bit:


More cards, teasers and details will be revealed very, very soon on our different social channels. Stay tuned to catch them all!

What do you mean by "very, very soon" :)?

Kataklysm6661
06-17-2014, 03:06 PM
Changing topic a bit:


What do you mean by "very, very soon" :)?


So far 3 artworks have been revealed. Did you see them?

czwartek22
06-17-2014, 03:16 PM
So far 3 artworks have been revealed. Did you see them?

Hm, actually not, I saw only two - Angel Protector and Bloodshark Warrior... I checked the main channels (official website, forum, Facebook, Twitter, Reddit), but haven't found the third artwork. Care to give a hint, Kataklysm6661 :)?

twardy_
06-17-2014, 03:52 PM
http://i.imgur.com/A0fNxja.jpg (http://imgur.com/A0fNxja)

this? maybe a troll?

his channel http://www.twitch.tv/platoon_tv/profile/pastBroadcasts

ive seen another card yesterday on his channel too


@edit

yeah, got rickrolled :(
trolls :(

MT...
06-17-2014, 04:08 PM
Here is a rough translation for anyone interested on what the abilities are.

Renaissance (when sent to the graveyard, phoenix reborn instantly and burns his attackers.)

Honor of the damned (WHEN plays against a viewer, phoenix can not win the game.)

gabusan
06-17-2014, 07:00 PM
Every game has trash cards, every game has some cards that are just flat good and some are bad.
Part of the joy of a card game (maybe not necessarily for you, but for some people) is finding the good cards from the bad cards.

So since all games have bad cards, lets go and intentionally create bad cards? This is like saying "in life, some people die before getting old, so lets just go kill some people". How can you defend this philosophy? Them releasing bad cards knowing full well they are trash is totally unaceptable. If finding out what are the good and bad cards is part of the joy, how about you do your best release balanced cards and let us, the players, decide which one are the most competitive "good" cards that make the others "trash"? I am happy to play with trash as long as trash DOES SOMETHING and is not horribly overpriced.

Because you know, it does not take Sherlock Holmes to see that some of these cards are a waste of time. No need to test them, just reading them once is enough.

zuom000
06-17-2014, 10:40 PM
So since all games have bad cards, lets go and intentionally create bad cards? This is like saying "in life, some people die before getting old, so lets just go kill some people". How can you defend this philosophy? Them releasing bad cards knowing full well they are trash is totally unaceptable. I.

Did you ever hear, about thing called power-creep and avoiding it?

gabusan
06-17-2014, 11:12 PM
Did you ever hear, about thing called power-creep and avoiding it?

Yes, I have heard it all about power-creep and a bunch of other theories about how "bad cards are needed". But I firmly believe in DoC they are misunderstanding the concept or evily using it to hide the fact they try hard to make awful cards, with full intention of it. Because it is one thing to release a card that is merely average and another, quite different, to release a card that is totally underwhelming, either because it does not do much or because it is too expensive for what it does.

A Loyal hound is an ok card. It can be played with no problems. There is no "power-creep" there. No complains at all with Loyal hound. I am clarifying this because when I complain about awful cards, people seems to believe I want all cards to be like "Angel of salvation" or something lke that.

No one is asking them to release cards that are more powerful than current ones. But when they release something like "Avenge the fallen", making it rare to add salt to the wound, it is like they are trying to lower the bar so the real good cards they are releasing are chased harder. "Power creep" is something you have to worry about when you release "Cloud Dijinn", "Lava spawn" or "Death Lord". But releasing "Earth Growth" or "Treasuary" (cards you could play and get nothing in return for your trouble), and then trying to justify it because you are trying to avoid "power creep" is plain evil.

malkorion
06-18-2014, 07:08 AM
Power creep is related to existing cards. There are cards which every other card will be compared to. There is a good example of this in MtG - Serra Angel vs. Baneslayer Angel. Both angels cost 5 mana, but where Serra Angel has two abilities and 4/4 stats, Baneslayer Angel has five abilities and 5/5 stats. The first is uncommon, the second mythic (epic) rare. That's power creep.

Maerwin
06-18-2014, 07:30 AM
Just an idea for Ubi: why not invite gabusan (and a few others that are mostly complaining about the weak cards, just using him as the most vocal example) to your test server to test the new expansion? Seems like a win-win situation - they had already shown that they can and will provide you a feedback to the cards, and they would get the chance to do that when there is still a possibility you'll change the card.

Aegon82
06-18-2014, 09:46 AM
Just an idea for Ubi: why not invite gabusan (and a few others that are mostly complaining about the weak cards, just using him as the most vocal example) to your test server to test the new expansion? Seems like a win-win situation - they had already shown that they can and will provide you a feedback to the cards, and they would get the chance to do that when there is still a possibility you'll change the card.

Please don't.
That would only make this game a power creep beast, and kill definetely all non rush decks.
While I agree they could make beta test for more players.

Milky97
06-18-2014, 12:49 PM
Just an idea for Ubi: why not invite gabusan (and a few others that are mostly complaining about the weak cards, just using him as the most vocal example) to your test server to test the new expansion? Seems like a win-win situation - they had already shown that they can and will provide you a feedback to the cards, and they would get the chance to do that when there is still a possibility you'll change the card.
No, because a) they have no clue about this game and thus would not be helpful and b) people that behave like gabusan are not trustworthy to provide them with secret information.

Mirnir
06-18-2014, 01:03 PM
I think this 100 cards should fiil the voids of the standard format. Some of this voids are: the lack of competitivity when playing with haven and sanctuary (but not OP them in any way - like Ishuma or Cassandra in previous format) and also to enlarge the faction system that was started by the HoN patch ( until now the only factions viable are demons and vampires ). If this things are done I think it will be an improvement in the gameplay and players will start playing this game more.

A great game is made by completing baby steps that matter, not with fillers !

MoritzBradtke
06-18-2014, 01:24 PM
I think this 100 cards should fiil the voids of the standard format. Some of this voids are: the lack of competitivity when playing with haven and sanctuary (but not OP them in any way - like Ishuma or Cassandra in previous format) and also to enlarge the faction system that was started by the HoN patch ( until now the only factions viable are demons and vampires ). If this things are done I think it will be an improvement in the gameplay and players will start playing this game more.

A great game is made by completing baby steps that matter, not with fillers !

Well, I can agree here.... I abondened the game with the last Expansion pretty quickly for some reasons... and probably not only me, while i liked the new mechanics the uptade implented and the new formats.... u have to understand some Players just enjoy only certain factions and i ONLY play heaven because i enjoy this one the most this

has always been the case and while i liked the new Cards for haven, i can't Play em because they are too weak to be competetive ): so i had to quit, however i bought some seals to Support the game and because i had hopes the Balance would be good but it was a Little dissapointing...

i hope the gaps will be filled in the next Expansion or u'll probably loose some more haven Players i cant tell u about the other factions because im no pro or anything just a normal Player who likes the game and the heaven faction but what i can tell u that ist too weak against other factions mainly Inferno and necro...

u can give Inferno, necro new Cards also, sure, but u have to give heaven stronger Cards or Cards which make a good Combo with the excisting Cards or i dont know how this should work but i'll wait longer and give a closer look to the Cards u implent next time before i'll spent more Money on the game, hope u understand!

gabusan
06-18-2014, 02:37 PM
Just an idea for Ubi: why not invite gabusan (and a few others that are mostly complaining about the weak cards, just using him as the most vocal example) to your test server to test the new expansion?

That would accomplish nothing. Even though I joke saying "fire all playtesters", deep down, I know these guys were sounding the alarm when they got their hands on things like Avenge the Fallen or Treasuary, same as I would. The real problem is that developers, after getting provided with useful feedback (like "Earth Growth is a trash"), they just go ahead and publish these crappy cards all the same, because they actively pursue to publish unplayable cards, it is part of their "lets add some filler" policy.

So as long as they are meeting their assigned ratio of "horrible cards vs playable cards", they just go ahead. They only make changes if there is more filller than expected.

Or maybe they just work on some cards to make them playable (these are the playable cards of the expansion) and, when deadline arrives, they just increase the costs of the ones they did not have time to playtest. Because, you know, if a card is too expensive, the chances for it to cause balance problems is much smaller. This is how we got a cost 4 Earth Growth and a cost 3 Blind seer.

What I simply cannot believe is that someone played with Crimson link or Treasuary and went: "Hey, these cards are alright. They are so fun to play".

Milky97
06-18-2014, 02:50 PM
That would accomplish nothing. Even though I joke saying "fire all playtesters", deep down, I know these guys were sounding the alarm when they got their hands on things like Avenge the Fallen or Treasuary, same as I would. The real problem is that developers, after getting provided with useful feedback (like "Earth Growth is a trash"), they just go ahead and publish these crappy cards all the same, because they actively pursue to publish unplayable cards, it is part of their "lets add some filler" policy.

So as long as they are meeting their assigned ratio of "horrible cards vs playable cards", they just go ahead. They only make changes if there is more filller than expected.

Or maybe they just work on some cards to make them playable (these are the playable cards of the expansion) and, when deadline arrives, they just increase the costs of the ones they did not have time to playtest. Because, you know, if a card is too expensive, the chances for it to cause balance problems is much smaller. This is how we got a cost 4 Earth Growth and a cost 3 Blind seer.

What I simply cannot believe is that someone played with Crimson link or Treasuary and went: "Hey, these cards are alright. They are so fun to play".

This post shows your knowledge about CCGs and their balance. You really know a lot about those!

Cainium
06-18-2014, 04:39 PM
In a competitive meta, there's 3 deck archetypes that dictates the quality of your matchup. Aggro beats Combo, Combo beats Control, Control beats Aggro. Combo isn't strong enough, then there's nothing to stop Control. The VIPs all know that and they all want to help ensure all three archetypes have shot. My job when it comes to archetypes is to make sure that Combo isn't that easy to play and isn't necessarily bugging low ELO players, it's best for them to face more Aggro decks, then Control decks, then some Combo once in a while.


With 6 factions and 4 major card types (creature, spell, fortune, building) it is very diffucult to keep this Aggro/Combo/Control balanced.

Control-heavy decks like Hakeem running big creatures and > 10 fortunes, but are more control than combo or aggro, maybe a bit of all. This is where the model fails, and buildings doesn't fit in at all.

Dhamiria (very strong) is more or less an "aggro and control" deck. Hard to say. She can have the power of an early rush and even very much control and board-wipe options, depending on the build. If you stabilize, she wipes the board and flood it with her strong low-cost attackers again.

Asalah Immolation is more Control/Combo than aggro so she has the potential power to beat aggro and control.

I don't want to say that such Borderline-Decks are bad, but they are unbalanced (doesn't mean to strong or to weak, just unbalanced) if the intention is Rock/Paper/Scissors, because not every faction can build one. I guess they are fun to play and fun to play against, but the chances should be as equal as possible.

Portios86
06-19-2014, 12:55 AM
I still really want to know how is haven to be played at a competitive level with cards like fisure there... probably not with buildings, at least it shouldnīt, and haven canīt kill stopen fatties or enemy fatties with spells, not easy. So i guess it will be a mid-range with strong anti-rush or maybe a kind of late game combo but I donīt know how is that going to work. It could work with some light spells or fortunes making your creatures really strong to removal but I donīt expect this so...I guess haven will be strong against simple rushers and hopefuly strong vs other rush-mid range decks, and sadly a bit weak vs control, but I think svilleneuve said something about haven getting aggresive creatures (fast and decent rushers I guess).

hmm...Iīm also very interested in light magic, not just haven.

Canīt wait for more information :P

Btw with Gabusan we could have bad cards if those are necessary but not so many useless fillers (which shouldnīt exist, with bad cards is enough).

bambikitkat
06-19-2014, 05:22 AM
seeing that you try to make this game a "rock scissor paper" (control beat aggro, that beat combo, that beat control) is really a bad news for me, hope you wont repeat this mistake once again.

zenithale
06-19-2014, 03:00 PM
(I like to play DoC, not "rock scissor paper".)

Aranarth78
06-19-2014, 11:13 PM
Any chance Masfar gets his ability reworked, and some BS2/HoN cards balanced ?

Not the topic for suggestion but, about Masfar ability, if it could passively reduce prerequisite of constructs by 1 in every stat, it would be great.

gabusan
06-20-2014, 02:27 PM
Any chance Masfar gets his ability reworked, and some BS2/HoN cards balanced ?

Not the topic for suggestion but, about Masfar ability, if it could passively reduce prerequisite of constructs by 1 in every stat, it would be great.

If this was to be done, all future constructs would get their stats increased by 1 during design to compensate and avoid them being broken in Masafar decks.

zapp626
06-23-2014, 07:57 AM
Wow, new extension so soon, that sounds exiting. I'm hoping for a few strong fatties with Dark Ward, so that they are playable.

zuom000
06-23-2014, 09:03 AM
Any chance Masfar gets his ability reworked, and some BS2/HoN cards balanced ?

Not the topic for suggestion but, about Masfar ability, if it could passively reduce prerequisite of constructs by 1 in every stat, it would be great.

Or allow to play any construct, not just from hand, u could be playing t5-6 constructs in 3-4 turn

gabusan
06-23-2014, 11:49 PM
Wow, new extension so soon, that sounds exiting. I'm hoping for a few strong fatties with Dark Ward, so that they are playable.

We probably will never see another "Dark Ward" creature ever again. The fact "dark ward" also protects now against dark creatures, not only spells, would make it far too powerful. Probably "Dark spell ward" is possible, but straight "dark ward" could create quite a mess with balance in standard.

In open is no problem, though, because you are getting beaten by many things other than dark creatures.

zapp626
06-24-2014, 11:25 AM
Yea you are right. Enemy spell ward maybe? That would be a fine line to completly OP though. Any 5+ creature that is playable would be great though. Until 4 you have such a wide range of possibilities and after that, no mans land.

gabusan
06-25-2014, 01:07 PM
Yea you are right. Enemy spell ward maybe? That would be a fine line to completly OP though. Any 5+ creature that is playable would be great though. Until 4 you have such a wide range of possibilities and after that, no mans land.

To be fair, I believe all factions sans necropolis have something at 5 that make it worthwile to increase might to 5. But you are right, there is not much to pick from. It is going to be hard for Inferno to pick anything other than hellfire maniac.

budynzmajonezem
06-26-2014, 05:34 AM
We probably will never see another "Dark Ward" creature ever again. The fact "dark ward" also protects now against dark creatures, not only spells, would make it far too powerful. Probably "Dark spell ward" is possible, but straight "dark ward" could create quite a mess with balance in standard.
It's because they messed up with creature subtypes in last expansion. All liches are dark, so Dark Ward is now basically "Necropolis Ward".

Magic school subtypes should be only on creatures that have abilities associated with that school: Banshee is Dark - that's obvious; Bloater is Fire - obvious, Shredder is Wind, because Swift is associated with Wind. But what ability has Neophyte Lich that makes him Dark?

Why even there are so many meaningless subtypes, why Wolf Trainer is a Mentor (and not for example a Soldier), but Goblin Mentor is just a Warrior and Djinn Mentor is a Djinn? Why Gated Demon is a Maniac and not Tormentor? Why Imperial Crossbowman and Expert Marksman, while holding crossbows, are Archers, but Hasafah with a bow is a Marksman? Why Void Arbiter and Void Shade are Void, but Caller of the Void, Void Wraith and even *Void Keeper* (btw he doesn't look very human to me) are not?

Please pay more attention to it making new creatures.

Portios86
06-28-2014, 12:23 AM
It's because they messed up with creature subtypes in last expansion. All liches are dark, so Dark Ward is now basically "Necropolis Ward".

Magic school subtypes should be only on creatures that have abilities associated with that school: Banshee is Dark - that's obvious; Bloater is Fire - obvious, Shredder is Wind, because Swift is associated with Wind. But what ability has Neophyte Lich that makes him Dark?

Why even there are so many meaningless subtypes, why Wolf Trainer is a Mentor (and not for example a Soldier), but Goblin Mentor is just a Warrior and Djinn Mentor is a Djinn? Why Gated Demon is a Maniac and not Tormentor? Why Imperial Crossbowman and Expert Marksman, while holding crossbows, are Archers, but Hasafah with a bow is a Marksman? Why Void Arbiter and Void Shade are Void, but Caller of the Void, Void Wraith and even *Void Keeper* (btw he doesn't look very human to me) are not?

Please pay more attention to it making new creatures.

liches are dark magic because they are magic shoters, they use a magic element.

Aranarth78
07-01-2014, 07:07 PM
Where can I get the Griffin Bane picto to include in Replay Manager ?
Something like this: https://static14.cdn.ubi.com/mmdoc/static/website/data/public/uploads/533b22a7e27b4.png.
Thank you in advance !

CrownAndDiadem
07-01-2014, 07:46 PM
Good job - but one question please: Who would want to play those stacks if its vulnerable to just one Soulreaver Banshee or a bridge? That is just my first thought about it - maybe I am wrong, but how about making it ward against darkness or something? Imagine u concentrate on it a few turns and than one stupid Soulreaver takes it down!?

Thanks for this nice game and have a nice day friends

Vengyre
07-04-2014, 09:11 AM
Tokens, yay! I expected to see them but anyway yay, loved token decks in MtG

malkorion
07-04-2014, 04:25 PM
Tokens, yay! I expected to see them but anyway yay, loved token decks in MtG

Except in MtG you can have an arbitrary amount of tokens.