PDA

View Full Version : Hurricane Flaps: why only down?



XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 04:50 PM
I originally posted this in answer to a point in a thread over on General Discussion. However, it was a pretty silly thread, so no one with the power to address the issue is likely to see it /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif . Since posting the original I've had a look in QMB to confirm that this is the case (only flap down/up on Hurricane).

Here it is:

Why only flap down post-patch? Two or 3 positions at least would be correct. From Hurricane 2 Pilot's Notes:

8. CHECK LIST BEFORE TAKE-OFF

...

F - Flaps - UP (28 deg down - two divs on indicator - for shortest take-off run).

11. GENERAL FLYING

...

In bad visibility near the ground flaps should be lowered to about 40 deg (3 divisions) and the propellor speed control set to 2,650 rpm. Speed may then be reduced to about 110 mph IAS (note mph not kts).

18. CHECK LIST BEFORE LANDING

...

F - Flaps - DOWN

19. APPROACH AND LANDING

(iii) <u>Flaps</u> : If 120 mph is exceeded with the flaps fully down, they will be partially raised by the airflow. they will automatically move to the fully down position when speed is reduced sufficiently, provided that the selector lever is left at down.

There are 3 positions quoted there (28, 40 degs & fully down) plus partially 'blown' up. In fact any position could be set by shifting the selector to DOWN, watching the indicator move, and reverting to NEUTRAL when the desired position was reached. Presumably most ac had similar systems and could actually set any position? I know the 109 had a manually operated wheel which would allow any angle between up and down to be set. For normal operation certain standard settings, which had been tested by test pilots drawing up pilot notes etc, would be the only ones actually used, so FB's simplification into 3 positions is reasonable enough. If the Hurricane has indeed lost the intermediate positions, I have to ask, why?

XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 04:50 PM
I originally posted this in answer to a point in a thread over on General Discussion. However, it was a pretty silly thread, so no one with the power to address the issue is likely to see it /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif . Since posting the original I've had a look in QMB to confirm that this is the case (only flap down/up on Hurricane).

Here it is:

Why only flap down post-patch? Two or 3 positions at least would be correct. From Hurricane 2 Pilot's Notes:

8. CHECK LIST BEFORE TAKE-OFF

...

F - Flaps - UP (28 deg down - two divs on indicator - for shortest take-off run).

11. GENERAL FLYING

...

In bad visibility near the ground flaps should be lowered to about 40 deg (3 divisions) and the propellor speed control set to 2,650 rpm. Speed may then be reduced to about 110 mph IAS (note mph not kts).

18. CHECK LIST BEFORE LANDING

...

F - Flaps - DOWN

19. APPROACH AND LANDING

(iii) <u>Flaps</u> : If 120 mph is exceeded with the flaps fully down, they will be partially raised by the airflow. they will automatically move to the fully down position when speed is reduced sufficiently, provided that the selector lever is left at down.

There are 3 positions quoted there (28, 40 degs & fully down) plus partially 'blown' up. In fact any position could be set by shifting the selector to DOWN, watching the indicator move, and reverting to NEUTRAL when the desired position was reached. Presumably most ac had similar systems and could actually set any position? I know the 109 had a manually operated wheel which would allow any angle between up and down to be set. For normal operation certain standard settings, which had been tested by test pilots drawing up pilot notes etc, would be the only ones actually used, so FB's simplification into 3 positions is reasonable enough. If the Hurricane has indeed lost the intermediate positions, I have to ask, why?

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 01:42 PM
bump & following the advice under Rank, above /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I've seen a few people say one setting is correct for the Hurricane. True for the Mk.I I suspect. Where's the evidence for the Mk.II? I think I've proved the original FB was correct and this didn't need patching. But I remain open to suggestions that AP1565B is wrong and the Royal Air Force knew nothing about Hurricanes /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-19-2003, 03:24 AM
The guts of this argument (not necc your post Kernow) is the effective removal of a combat Flap setting.

Ref AP15644B & D Sect 2
Handling and Flying Notes for pilot

Para 8 states in Check List before Take OFF

Flaps UP
(28 degrees down - two divs on indicator for shortest take-off run)

Maintenance section of the same manual Vol1 Sect 9

"If it is desired to only partially lower the flaps the selector lever must be returned to NEUTRAL when the flaps reach the desired position."

So does the Hurricane have a Combat Flap Flap position

IMHO No !

Consider the mechanization. The Pilots notes refer to the Two divisions on the indicator for shortest possible take off run. Lets by deduction assume this is in effect a "Max lift" setting. If we accept this then In Combat this setting would also provide a Max lift fighting flap selection. Selecting any more in a fight is going to hurt you.

So If the pilot in a fight wants to avail himself of this Max lift flap position how would he select it ?

Take left hand of the throttle quadrant and put on the spade grip.
Take right hand of the spade grip
With right hand select Flaps down
Monitor Flap divisions
When indicators show 2 units select Flap selector handle to neutral
Change hands and fight.

Now when you want flaps UP reverse the procedure.
All hardly practical in the middle of a fight.

Anyway if you insist the option should be there in FB map it to a slider and slide away Monitoring flap position as required whilst fighting... good luck.

For Domestic operations such as Take Off and Poor Viz flying then the use of intermediate postions might be an option, but as before you have the option if you map to a slider.


Ps=V(T-D)/W
III/JG11_IvanK

XyZspineZyX
08-19-2003, 08:58 AM
Could you map it to a slider, even tho there's only one down position? No, I don't actually want to, just curious. I only have one slider and throttle seems most suitable for that.

I don't use combat flap in the Hurri; there doesn't seem much need to. You're right it would have been a nightmare to move the flaps in combat. Viewed in that light maybe the removal of the combat setting was desirable, even if theoretically possible to select. Although there is no need for the take-off setting (unless/untill stores become available to the Hurri), there seems little justification in removing that seeing as it would be selected on the ground. Or would that also be 'abused' in the air?

I'm fairly certain that the 109 flap wheel was on the left, but how many other ac had selectors on the right and was the Hurri* singled out for special treatment in the patch?

*Yes, I'm well aware that something needed to be done.

XyZspineZyX
08-19-2003, 05:23 PM
Maybe it should have been done like the keyboard trim adjustment? Hold the flaps down key down and the flaps start extending over a period of time. Removing your finger from the down key before the flaps are all the way down, and they stay where they are, somewhere between retracted and extended.

http://www.dyno-tech.com/raftags/raf_pagan.gif


<a href="http://www.raf662.com">RAF662 CFSG

XyZspineZyX
08-19-2003, 05:56 PM
I had my flaps mapped to the antenna elevation knob on my Cougar, and got an infinite number of positions available for any a/c that had flaps. It was particularly useful for "milking" the flaps up after takeoff back in IL-2 where you had to really nurse some of those planes up into the air. Raising the flaps one notch would lower the nose too much sometimes, so being able to bring them up a little bit at a time was very helpful.

XyZspineZyX
08-19-2003, 06:31 PM
RAF_Pagan wrote:
- Maybe it should have been done like the keyboard
- trim adjustment? Hold the flaps down key down and
- the flaps start extending over a period of time.
- Removing your finger from the down key before the
- flaps are all the way down, and they stay where they
- are, somewhere between retracted and extended.
-
-

Nice idea. That seems to have been how it worked for real in most ac. In the Hurri you moved a lever, watched the flap moved and put the lever back to neutral at the desired point; in the 109s you had to wind a handle until flaps reached the right position. I'm not sure if any ac had a lever which could be moved to specific 'combat' or 'take-off' etc positions, allowing the flaps to automatically find the desired position. Just been reading about the La5 and it had a system like the Hurri - couldn't find which side it was mounted on tho.

I was going to say that perhaps game coding limits us to the 3 positions, however, if flap can be mapped to a slider then it must be infinitely variable.