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Bearcat99
04-16-2004, 09:20 AM
Now I finally really understand prop pitch!!! I thought I had it and the concept is easy enough.. but I did some tweaking to my stick setup and I put auto/manual prop pitch on my stick and went up in a 109. Whooaa!! Needless to say I fried my engine in no time on my first few attempts. Now it makes even more sense and the whole auto pitch CSP thing makes more sense. Apparently we never had real prop pitch on the American planes... I continue to be amazed at the depth of this sim. I think I threw a rod or something.. I heard a clunk.. then a bang...then a whizz and thats all she wrote!! Anybody who is still a little unclear about prop pitch..or who just wants to try real prop pitch (well.... real virtual prop pitch) should hop in a 109.... even if you dont fly it..if you just want the lightbulb to go off..like it did in my head...do that. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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Bearcat99
04-16-2004, 09:20 AM
Now I finally really understand prop pitch!!! I thought I had it and the concept is easy enough.. but I did some tweaking to my stick setup and I put auto/manual prop pitch on my stick and went up in a 109. Whooaa!! Needless to say I fried my engine in no time on my first few attempts. Now it makes even more sense and the whole auto pitch CSP thing makes more sense. Apparently we never had real prop pitch on the American planes... I continue to be amazed at the depth of this sim. I think I threw a rod or something.. I heard a clunk.. then a bang...then a whizz and thats all she wrote!! Anybody who is still a little unclear about prop pitch..or who just wants to try real prop pitch (well.... real virtual prop pitch) should hop in a 109.... even if you dont fly it..if you just want the lightbulb to go off..like it did in my head...do that. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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Venom079
04-16-2004, 10:07 AM
Very tricky indeed. I started off in 109's with auto pitch till I got the hang of it and then switched to manual. Fried my engine several times before figuring out the right way to engage manual pitch. Back my throttle down to about 20% and switch to manual, but the tricky part is using it effectively while in combat. The 109's p-pitch settings also seem to be very sensitive compared to allied a/c. In all, i'm still trying to master manual prop with Z german a/c http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

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Bearcat99
04-16-2004, 10:28 AM
WEll after a few QMs in the 109s with pitch enabled (I tried the K & a few Gs) all I can say is WHOOAAA BABY!!!! I can get used to that. It almost urns the 109 into a different plane and I can now understand some of the things the AI does. I need a lot of practice with this bird.. (I need a lot of practice anyway but.. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif) it is just too d@mn good this sim is. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

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BaldieJr
04-16-2004, 10:36 AM
Don't even touch the throttle. Just tweak on the pitch knob. The k hauls major arse without over heating, once you've got the hang of it.

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F19_Ob
04-16-2004, 11:26 AM
comeon guys http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif U dont need that proppitch stuff to perform in the 109.....

There were a reason for the autosettings U know.The autofunctions was what made the 109 special.
The radiator was still manually used fully open on taxiing and takeoff but switched to auto for the rest of the time under normal circumstances.

I would concentrate on tactics and situational awareness.
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Venom079
04-16-2004, 11:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ob_swe:
comeon guys http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif U dont need that proppitch stuff to perform in the 109.....

There were a reason for the autosettings U know.The autofunctions was what made the 109 special.
The radiator was still manually used fully open on taxiing and takeoff but switched to auto for the rest of the time under normal circumstances.

I would concentrate on tactics and situational awareness.
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

takes away the complexity of it all m8 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
what do you think z germans used...auto or manual?

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JG14_Josf
04-16-2004, 11:34 AM
Bearcat,

If in fact the 109 had an electric motor to drive the prop pitch and if this was controlled by a thumb operated three possition switch i.e. off, increase pitch, and decrease pitch and if the 109 did have a control to connect the prop pitch motor to be controlled by a few governing mechanisms including an RPM governor then the game does simulate the real 109 prop pitch control well.

Another point to consider is that the real 109 may have also linked the RPM governor control to the throttle lever and this too is indicated in the game's modeling of the 109 prop pitch control since changes in throttle in the game also results in RPM setting changes; when using Auto prop pitch.

What is not simulated well is that the game stores a manual prop pitch setting memory which is probably not a feature available in th real 109.
In the real 109 it is likely that when switching from Auto prop to manual prop or when switching from manual to auto prop the prop pitch would not immediatly jump to a different setting.
The prop pitch dial on the instrument panel in the game will jump from low pitch to high pitch when selecting manual pitch from auto pitch.
In the real plane the prop would only be able to change at a speed determined by the electric motor's rpm and load.

For instance:

Sitting on the runway with the engine running in the game a player can throttle up the 109 and watch the prop pitch dial turn around slowly as the engine gains RPM. If the player switches to Manual Prop 100% that Prop dial spins quickly and the engine PRM suddenly rises.
On the real plane the pilot would switch to manual (my interpretation of the 109 manuals) under the same situation during the take off roll but instead of having the prop pitch jump to 100% prop pitch when the pilot switched from Auto to Manual the prop pitch angle would stop moving. The electric motor would have no electric current and the prop pitch dial would not move.
Under the same sitaution the real 109 pilot would then have to move the manaual prop pitch switch to the prop pitch decrease (flat pitch) possition and only then would the engine RPM increase, only once the pilot manually moved the prop pitch by switching an electric switch could the engine overcome the drag force of a high pitch prop blade angle.
The game code recognizes the previous manual prop pitch setting when switching from manual to Auto and once that player switches back to manual from auto the game remembers the previous manual setting.

This can cause problems in combat with the game 109 that would not exist with the real 109.
If the real 109 pilot found a need to switch to manual prop setting he would not be required to remember where the prop was last set before switching from Auto to Manual. There would be no danger of a sudden change in RPM. The real 109 pilot would not be able to switch from Auto to manual and have his engine suddenly over rev or under rev. The real 109 pilot would always have to manually drive the prop pitch from the pitch it was at in Auto setting when it was switched to manual.

The game allows a 109 pilot to 'game the game'
by switching back and forth from Auto to Manual and avoid the real 109s slow pitch movement.

In other words; the real 109 was only capable of prop pitch change speeds determined by how fast the electric motor could screw the prop angle under load while the game allows the 109s prop pitch to change almost instantly when switching from Auto to Manual.

Did I manage to clarify or confuse?

Cossack_UA
04-16-2004, 11:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ob_swe:
comeon guys http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif U dont need that proppitch stuff to perform in the 109.....

There were a reason for the autosettings U know.The autofunctions was what made the 109 special.
The radiator was still manually used fully open on taxiing and takeoff but switched to auto for the rest of the time under normal circumstances.

I would concentrate on tactics and situational awareness.
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not true! With auto pitch BF109 allows to spin the engin only to 2500 + RPM. Manual pitch allows you to spin you engine to its aximum revolutions and over. You can safely run the engie at 3000 RPM, which gives alot more climbing ability. But with manual prop pitch the density of the air will change you engine's RPMs if your prop pitch remains constant. For instance, if you are taking off, you can safely apply 100% pich and you will not overrev the engine. As your altitude increases, you gotta drop pitch to prevent overreving. The same thin in dives. You gotta drop pitch in dives or you will overrev (even if you throttle is at zero, oncoming wind will overrev the engine)

BlindHuck
04-16-2004, 11:55 AM
The whole point of auto was to make combat easier. Max performance was dialed in on auto settings and manual was emergency backup. Have read of pilots closing rads manually to chase down PR's. Even shutting down engine and feathering (yes, on a 109) the prop and gliding to cool engine then restarting (repeat as necessary) to try to get back to base. All German props are, were, featherable.

Have fun, guys, that's the point, but realize that any time you can get additional performance at ANY setting other than 100% rpm (either above or below) and FULL throttle deviates from that netherworld known as reality. So . . . if one tweaks the motor/prop can he still blather about flying FULL REAL . . .? A thought.

Gotta go and work on planes in full real now,
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Curly_109
04-16-2004, 01:22 PM
i really must say that i doubt the usefullness of using man.prop.pitch in combat with 109. with allied A/C's it's O.K. i use it regularly in combat situations, but with 109 NEVER.... maybe AI can get some advantage of using it in combat but i cannot except to shutting it to zero(+flaps to lower speed fast) or auto 'cause you have little time in these situations

Agamemnon22
04-16-2004, 01:43 PM
It is quite useful actually. There's a track from the championship in China in the sticky above, where one pilot uses manual and the other sits at Auto (so it seems) (Bf109G6/AS all around if I remember correctly). The former switches to manual to overrev the engine for a bit while climbing and in other maneuvers that require power. You can see the difference right there, he's able to climb faster than his opponent, giving him the advantage. It wont make you turn tighter or whatnot, but it will give you a little edge in power, which can often make the difference. I started using manual myself after watching that track, and I must say I will never go back.

Jaws2002
04-16-2004, 01:51 PM
Same thing in the Iar-80/81. But unlike on the 109 here you need all the advantage you can get. So many times using manual pitch over Auto, is the fine line between killing or getting waxed. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

BuzzU
04-16-2004, 01:53 PM
Glad to see you catching up Bear. We've been saying this all along.. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

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michapma
04-16-2004, 03:23 PM
I can't wait until Bearcat discovers that there is a gauge to tell you exactly what the prop pitch is. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Not that you can really use it for much... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

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LEBillfish
04-16-2004, 04:07 PM
Please tell me if I'm wrong...............But I was under the impression in real life prop pitch is set to a current condition such as a long climb, altitude, decent, cruise, combat, etc.. Yet Throttle was for immediate responses as needed and with some minor temp use for take off, rapid climb, combat and the like.......

So essentially, in normal non combat conditions throttle used to make the changes, pitch then set as required due to them....Yet in the longrun considering combat.....Pitch set as immediately required and throttle doing the rest.

Basically I envission combat as pitch would be set, and except for extreme changes in alt, engine stalling or over reving (hard LONG dives or climbs) otherwise left alone.

So in the end, pitch used very little, throttle much more.

However, in contrast I can most certainly see setting throttle to say 90% and using pitch as your primary control yet simply to keep rpms at a "safe" max level.

So?...WHich is it as frankly some planes Iset pitch and forget using throttle 99% of the time, yet in others set throttle using pitch 99% of the time.

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Maj_Death
04-16-2004, 04:25 PM
Auto is the best setting. What you all are doing is simply over revving the engine. This does result in a minor increase in acceleration at low speeds at the expense of engine temperature. When you overrev your engines like this all you do is reduce engine overheat time from 5 minutes to 30 seconds. Yes for that 30 seconds you have an advantage but then you are a sitting duck if your opponent has a single brain cell in his head. Leave it on auto or set the pitch to where auto would set it if you want to live. The only exception to this is the 109E, but that is because the stupid auto system under revs it.

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LuftLuver
04-16-2004, 04:34 PM
So is this an exploit that yields un-realistic performance?

Plz no flames, I am truly just curious.

Agamemnon22
04-16-2004, 04:53 PM
Maj Death: not really, you can use it in bursts without causing any major overheating problems. Just don't go too far past 3500 for too long http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Else you can sit at 3000 for long enough for it to make a difference, then just cool down by setting back to 2500 or so. It's not a sure fire way to get yourself out of a jam, but if used at the right moment in battle can help. Alternatively, you can use it before an engagement to climb higher than your opponent.

I don't know if its an exploit or not, I never flew an actual 109 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif, but from what I know about engines i guess it makes sense, but at the same time you wouldn't expect it to happen if the power peak is at 2600 or whatever it is.

ZG77_Lignite
04-16-2004, 09:10 PM
I agree with Major Death Blind Huck. The use of this 'manual' pitch thing-a-ma-jigger does not have much of a historical use context, and more-so, does not really provide enough of a performance increase to warrant it's use. My humble opinions only.

F19_Ob
04-17-2004, 06:54 AM
I have read quite alot about the 109's in german and finnish hands, and so far I find the finns more detailed in their descriptions of operating and controlls. The germans saw the finns as very acomplished 109 drivers who operated from short fields under bad conditions. I've searched for accounts of proppitch use in combat but been unable to find any.
so....if anyone of u find any account of this plz tell me. My impression though is still that they flew on autosettings.

cheers

p1ngu666
04-17-2004, 09:19 AM
thought they flew on auto, apart from long range crusing.
id want it on auto in combat tbh, no chance of overreving http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

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LEBillfish
04-17-2004, 09:41 AM
As a "guess"......If you're finding no detailed accounts of "prop pitch use" then I'd say it's a fair bet that auto pitch was what most really flew with.

Try to think of it just like an automatic transmission in a car.....Sure it's fun to shift from gear to gear over riding the torque converter to both accelerate and engine brake, yet pretty soon becomes a pain, more so when you realize if the trans is set up right you get "the best" combination of performance and economy letting it do it's job.

Modify it and you can have it be pure performance.....(used to bracket race with my ex and auto transmissions always beat manual)...More so, the auto trans does it's job well, so why screw with it.

However, just like anything with more sensitive settings and parts, more complex in it's design, it also becomes more prone to failure and delicate.......Why in a jeep off-roading you want a manual trans as if it breaks down too far away you're in trouble.

So that may explain "why?" the german engines here are more prone to catastrophic failure if over reved, or upon taking a hit....vs. manual pitch planes that though are tougher but don't perform at an optimum level eeking out that fine tuned bit of performance.

So best bet?....If it had auto pitch use it. My bet as well that's what the axis pilots did as well......At least after the first time their mechanic railed on them for having to rebuild a ruined engine http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Xnomad
04-17-2004, 10:07 AM
Well I have been put off manual prop pitch because it's risky and unrealistic but today I gave it a go again after watching Viks and others explointing the hell out of this back at the ICAS in China.

I have it on a slider and when climbing stuck it on 91 % and climbed at 3000 Rpm with rads open fully, no problem and no overheating. Later on I got in a fight with a allied plane and he was climbing after me and had a bit of a speed advantage.

I switched to manual and raised the rpm to 3000 in a combat turn to keep his shots off me and watched as he couldn't keep up, at the end he was stalling just below and behind me then he glided out infront and wham bang meet my MK 108! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif I wish I had a track it looked really good. I'm afraid I'm going to do that more often when the sh!t hits the fan, realistic or not.

I remember reading somewhere that 109 pilots only used manual when taking off or landing. As there are some inconsitencies regarding historical realism in FB AEP I don't mind 'cheating' a little to save my bacon.

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