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Isamu-Sasaki
06-23-2004, 07:40 AM
Why does Hayate blackout so more often than other fast turner? I fly yakovlev, lavochkin, mitsubisi and hayate online. All have excellent turns but hayate blackout so more often than others.

Is reason for this?

No fires is good question about game please

Isamu-Sasaki
06-23-2004, 07:40 AM
Why does Hayate blackout so more often than other fast turner? I fly yakovlev, lavochkin, mitsubisi and hayate online. All have excellent turns but hayate blackout so more often than others.

Is reason for this?

No fires is good question about game please

geetarman
06-23-2004, 07:41 AM
You think blackout's are bad in the Frank - try a Mustang! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Isamu-Sasaki
06-23-2004, 07:48 AM
Not bad as hayate I think really but is not friendly like yakovlev. Why is this

Cajun76
06-23-2004, 08:01 AM
Because generally the Hayate is moving faster, therefore, more G's.

Good hunting,
Cajun76

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Kwiatos
06-23-2004, 08:01 AM
i think Hayate has to sensitive elevator at high speed. Japanes pilots reported that elevator became heavy at high speed but in Fb is very sensitive. Thats way in Hayate is more blackout.

LuftLuver
06-23-2004, 08:17 AM
Because the HateYate is overmodeled. No energy bleed and turns too sharp.

Be sure. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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HeinzBar
06-23-2004, 08:26 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Isamu-Sasaki:
Not bad as hayate I think really but is not friendly like yakovlev. Why is this<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

S!,
What non-russian plane has a friedly blackout? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif You'd be hard pressed to find one.

HB

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Lazy312
06-23-2004, 08:59 AM
another VVS conspiracy? no.

friendly blackout = inefficient elevator

next time don't pull so much and you will have friendly blackout with Hayate too. :-)

wooden planes, iron men

PikeBishop
06-23-2004, 09:28 AM
The problem here is one of the amount of 'g' a fighter can pull at a given speed.
Basically at twice it's stall speed a fighter can pull 4g max, at 3 times its stall speed it can pull 9g max. This is continuous if there is no loss in speed.
Lets say the average pilot blacks out at 4g.
This means that the Zero m2 pilot would black out at about 150mph at max 'g'. The Mustang pilot at about 240mph (these are approximations......have not the time to work it out now. The frank would be 4'g' at about 190mph but because of it's higher speed range it would be more likely to be pulling 'g' at higher speeds. What you should find is that the blackout should be directly related to the 'g' pulled regardless of the speed at the time. Note that once you are going beyond 350 mph max 'g' pulling ability of any aircraft has no advantage because the blackout 'g' loads reach a plateau and it's what the individual pilot could tolerate. So at this point the more manoeuverable aircraft lose out because the aircraft can still potentially pull more 'g' but the pilot cannot take it. This is why 'G' suites came into widespread use after WWII to delay the blackout point and thus keep racking up the turn until the wings broke off.!!!!
regards,

SLP

NorrisMcWhirter
06-23-2004, 09:40 AM
Hi,

Applying logic to the information from this post:

"You think blackout's are bad in the Frank - try a Mustang!"

and this :

"Because the HateYate is overmodeled. No energy bleed and turns too sharp."

would lead to a deduction that the Mustang is also overmodelled and turns too sharply, too.

Cheers,
Norris

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Isamu-Sasaki
06-23-2004, 09:46 AM
Is interesting responses yes and I do not say hayate is undermodelled haha but what is good of turn rate because of high blackout? Hayate is not my plane I only fly because is Japanese. Mitsubisi is much better modelled and is more real I think.


I only ask because what good is super turn if yakovlev can do same by not blacking out. I do not care if hayate overmodelled or not is fun to fly but just why is blackout so fast? I do not see why in turn this happens is not so much better than lavochkin or yakovlev but blackout is so much higher. Is bad design I think someone is too much blackout or the other too little blackout for this turn rate.

geetarman
06-23-2004, 10:30 AM
I'll give you an "A" for effort Norris but the deduction you state is not necessarily true as the premise is based on (obviously) opinion and not stated fact.

PikeBishop
06-24-2004, 02:43 AM
Sasaki,

What you must look at is the difference between the max 'g' ratings......as the game does not have a 'g-ometer' it is difficult to see.
The best way is to say 'if the frank pulls 4'g' at 190mph, then at that same speed the mustang could pull about 3'g'. This means that if you watch your speed and keep at around 190mph you will always be able to out-turn your enemy even though neither pilot will black out. I am not sure of the actual 'g' limit before blackout occurs in the game, but I'm sure you get the idea........with no 'g'-ometer in the game you don't really know how much 'g' you are pulling until you black out......do some tests at different speeds with a mate.
regards,

SLP

F19_Ob
06-24-2004, 02:56 AM
I'm not so familiar with Japanese planes but easily put, generally a plane with high efficient elevators tend to blackout when getting the high input in fast speeds because it happens so rapidly. This is very different for example in a 109 wich get very low input in Fast speeds.


This could be what u experience.

SeaFireLIV
06-24-2004, 03:07 AM
Am I right to say that it`s not about the SPEED alone, but the `turn` or `pull` you make at the speed you are doing? And that some planes allow you to `PULL` or `TURN` much faster than others while moving fast.

So the Zero allows a faster turn and pull than a Yak, therefore producing more `Gs`, because a Yak cannot make quite as good a sharp turn at speed - So you`ll black out faster in a zero.

It will obviously vary depending how much you pull and at what speed you are at. It`s nothing to do with one plane more overmodelled than another, it`s about understanding how your maouevers are affecting you in at speed while turning.

This is my VERY BASIC way to explain it. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif I think this is what F19_Ob is saying anyway and a lot of players don`t understand this principle.

SeaFireLIV...

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F19_Ob
06-24-2004, 03:25 AM
Yes Seafire thats what I ment.
If a plane with highefficient elevators pulls hard in high speed, the effect comes very rapidly and causes the blackout immediatley. This is also a huge problem with the modern jetfighters of today, Highefficient elevators combined with high speed have killed many jet pilots when they blackout or passout on low altitude.

WUAF_Badsight
06-24-2004, 03:33 AM
the amount of "G" a plane makes in FB is now measurable

DEVICELINK

its a way of being able to record all the numbers that are generated in FB & have them displayed in guages of one kind or another outside of the program

Maddox games have supplied the ability to program your own recording / displays

dont like the speedbar on-screen ?

then buy some guages & use the Devicelink's ability to send that info out to them



***BTW***

G that planes make in FB has already been measured

all planes in FB make blackout happen at or around 6G

some just before

some just after 6g has been attained

all planes generate G differently

.i.e. better or worse turning capability / elevator authority

.
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PikeBishop
06-24-2004, 04:00 AM
Seafire,

It is the speed that governs the radius and therefore the rate. The other factor is the wing loading which influences the stall at any given speed. At a constant speed say 250mph if you start slowly turning and gradually tightening up, what happens is at 2g the aircraft weights twice as much as it did so the stall speed rises as you tighten, until the stall speed equals the speed you are going. Then if you pull any more the aircraft stalls. So it follows that the lower your level speed stall the tighter you can pull at any given speed. But still the average pilot can only take about 4 or 5 'g'. Further to this, if you have lots of reserve power which you can throw in to combat the loss in speed due to the drag as the angle of attack (never more than 15 deg or so)increases, then you can climb in the turn as well, which gives one an instant advantage. Dive and zoom can of course neutralize this advantage as the P40's did against the Zero's.
One other point is that the ceilng of an aircraft is when the speed you are going.......max power available is the same as your stall speed because tha air is less dense at altitude.
I think this is what you are getting at....or do you mean control response e.g. the Zero's slow roll response or controls locking up in a dive, this obviously is not related to the effects of 'g' loads.

regards,
SLP.

SeaFireLIV
06-24-2004, 04:23 AM
Interesting stuff there guys. I`m not afraid to say that i`m not an expert on aircraft flying properties, but I learn as i go along... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I think it`s safe to say that I`ve learnt more about flying from this Sim and Forum than at any other time in my life!

SeaFireLIV...

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Aghh! Damn those LA7s!

NorrisMcWhirter
06-24-2004, 06:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by geetarman:
I'll give you an "A" for effort Norris but the deduction you state is not necessarily true as the premise is based on (obviously) opinion and not stated fact.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

On the basis of that, then, I could conclude that your original opinion that the P51 black out is worse than the Ki84 is not correct?

IMO, the P51 blackout is not as bad as other aircraft in the game but this will lead into the flight suit argument which has been covered before.

But, I'd say that the Hayate has a high rate of turn. I know this because I had a job turning with it in an overmodelled P40!

Cheers,
norris

================================================== ==========

: Chris Morris - Blue Jam :
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: More irreverence :
http://www.tvgohome.com/

: You've seen them... :
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PE_Tigar
06-24-2004, 07:46 AM
First comment--average pilot's G tolerance (no special suits, no excercise) is around 6.5 G short term, -1.5 to -2 G, also short term. I've been to 4 G (and I am quite average, bit taller, but not particularly fit)--no sweat. Jet fighter jocks go to 9 G regularly, I've met Mirage 2000-5 pilot who told me he sustained 12G short term even (maybe he bragged, he's French http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif).

Second, the thing with blackouts in FB is quite suspicious to me in general, as well as the newly-introduced G-load wing-shedding (happens before you even start to black out in Mustangs, incidentally).

Tully__
06-24-2004, 08:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PikeBishop:
...
One other point is that the ceilng of an aircraft is when the speed you are going.......max power available is the same as your stall speed because tha air is less dense at altitude.....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, IIRC the figure quoted as "Operational Ceiling" is the altitude at which sustained climbrate drops below 100ft/min (~0.5m/s).

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lindyman
06-24-2004, 08:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PE_Tigar:
First comment--average pilot's G tolerance (no special suits, no excercise) is around 6.5 G short term, -1.5 to -2 G, also short term. I've been to 4 G (and I am quite average, bit taller, but not particularly fit)--no sweat.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Seems reasonable. I've been at the same a number of times, also a bit taller than average, and not well trained. When I pull the stick there's no problem at all. When I'm riding along and someone else pulls 4G, I get a slight bit of tunnel vision.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PE_Tigar:
Jet fighter jocks go to 9 G regularly,
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There are a few differences to bear in mind, though.

The most obvious is the physical strength of the pilot, and experience with how to counter the G effects, at least regarding high positives. There's not so much you can do about negatives, other than fight the headache. Probably the most overlooked aspect is how you sit in the plane. In modern fighters you lean back a lot, with your feet and legs fairly high, which raises your tolerance enormously. The most over-rated, but not unimportant, is the G-suits.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PE_Tigar:
I've met Mirage 2000-5 pilot who told me he sustained 12G short term even (maybe he bragged, he's French http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif).
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not the least suspicious. In unlimited-class aerobatics, the pilots often go to the 12G domain, but that is for very short periods of time.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PE_Tigar:
Second, the thing with blackouts in FB is quite suspicious to me in general, as well as the newly-introduced G-load wing-shedding (happens before you even start to black out in Mustangs, incidentally).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've never blacked out, so I don't know first hand what happens when you do. What I have noticed with tunnel vision, however, is that normal vision recovers instantly when the stick pressure is released. That was a surprise to me. The stick was like a tunnel diameter control. Pull back for narrow viewing hole, ease forward for instant wide viewing hole.

On wing shedding, I agree that the Mustangs do seem a bit odd in this, but it's not that odd to be able to severly overstress the aircraft without blacking out. One thing is, as you mentioned above, that a persons G-tolerance depends on the time you're exposed to the Gs. Not so for the aircraft structure. Another thing depends on how the forces are applied to the aircraft. An example often mentioned in aerobatics manuals is snap-rolls, which can overstress a wing if carried out carelessly, even if you in the cockpit don't feel that many Gs.
_
/Bjorn.

horseback
06-24-2004, 08:48 AM
Is there any indication that the pilot's size and fitness (as a national average) is being factored in? As I understand it, a shorter man is likely to enjoy a greater ability to tolerate high G, and during WWII, the average Japanese male was about 5'2" (157cm), and the average European or American was about 5-6" (around 15cm) taller.

If this were modelled, the Japanese a/c would be slightly more G-tolerant, but we still also need to consider the speeds at which the turns are made, and the physical condition of the pilot. Is he in shape? Does he smoke or did he drink adult beverages (something other than American beer) the night before? How long has he been in the air and/or on oxygen? Has he been in strenuous combat already just before this engagement, or has he been wounded? Has he been getting enough fiber in his diet?

And how about his relationship with his mother, father, siblings , and significant other? Is she ticked off at him for painting her idealized nude form across the nose of his aircraft?

Uh...sorry guys. I took yesterday afternoon off, and in a moment of weakness (which turned into nearly a full hour), I watched Oprah.

cheers

horseback

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PikeBishop
06-24-2004, 09:20 AM
Just an addition....I quickly calculated the 'g' max for the Ki84:
2x stall =180mph
P51 2x stall=220mph
so at 180mph Ki84 'g' max = 4'g'

P51 at 180mph.....180/110mph = 2.68'g'

so quite a difference. (weights might vary....fuel etc).
With the ceilng point I was just making the point that at an aircraft's absolute ceiling is where it cannot climb any more and is literally "hanging on its stall"

regards

SLP

PikeBishop
06-24-2004, 09:44 AM
Also I forgot to add that some years ago I went up in a Tiger Moth to time aerobatic manoeuvres. We climbed to gain altitude so we had plenty of space between us and the ground.
In the first instance I called Go! on the radio and started the stopwatch. The pilot pulled max 'g'. Unfortunately I was looking down at my clip board and the 'g' built up fast until he lost the turn and went into a dive. With my head down (and I could not pull my head up against the load) my eyeballs nearly popped out of my head. I could not see and it was VERY uncomfortable.......pain!! After that I learned........keep your head UP!
I enjoyed the aerobatics and did not throw up. Got lots of data!!
regards,

SLP

Cajun76
06-24-2004, 10:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NorrisMcWhirter:

But, I'd say that the Hayate has a high rate of turn. I know this because I had a job turning with it in an overmodelled P40!

Cheers,
norris
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

IIRC, the P-40 was one of the more maneuverable American fighters, but since it's often compared to the Zero or Ki-43 "Oscar", it's not generally regarded as being so. Rather, it's generally viewed as worse than it really was. P-40 is one of my favorites for taking out Hayate jocks, because usually they're going faster and their turning circle is easy to get inside of. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif

Good hunting,
Cajun76

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What if there were no hypothetical questions?

PikeBishop
06-25-2004, 02:29 AM
That makes perfect sense, the P40's wing loading is 30lbs/sqft and the Ki84's is 33lbs/sqft. So the P40 should out-turn the ki84 in a level turn but the tremendous excess power difference would allow the 84 to accelerate or climb away whilst still turning leaving the P40 struggling. I suppose what I am really saying is that of the players in the game, very few know how to really fly their mounts..........I know all the theory but can't really put it into practice by putting everything together except on rare occaisions. But I do know that in WWII with 2 good pilots 1 on 1 the P40 pilot would be lucky to survive.
regards,

SLP

Cajun76
06-25-2004, 09:20 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PikeBishop:
That makes perfect sense, the P40's wing loading is 30lbs/sqft and the Ki84's is 33lbs/sqft. So the P40 should out-turn the ki84 in a level turn but the tremendous excess power difference would allow the 84 to accelerate or climb away whilst still turning leaving the P40 struggling. I suppose what I am really saying is that of the players in the game, very few know how to really fly their mounts..........I know all the theory but can't really put it into practice by putting everything together except on rare occaisions. But I do know that in WWII with 2 good pilots 1 on 1 the P40 pilot would be lucky to survive.
regards,

SLP<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif I was merely saying that, regardless, if he is traveling 100km/h faster than me, he's going to make a bigger arc that I can turn inside of. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/34.gif

One thing to keep in mind, the numbers say one thing, but if say, the elevator lacks effectiveness on the P-40, then wingloading won't do any good. It's not just cut and dried numbers. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif He can accelerate his turn, but if I cut underneath and come up, then his powerloading advantage can be managed, at least for the short term. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Generally, it's not the plane, it's the nut behind the stick.... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/53.gif

Good hunting,
Cajun76

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