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TeriXeri
08-28-2013, 11:52 AM
So I saw this post on the xbox part of the forum : http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/861803-Wise-words-from-Dahaka and it describes the same problem Evo Gold seems to be having.


TC is a disgrace right now....seems just when you thought it couldn't get any worse it somehow manages to blow your already low expectations out of the water. In the early days, even the poorer tracks had some creativity, but now it seems people can't even be bothered with that.

You have got to remember alot of the track makers have editor knowledge too but just don't know how to put it all together. But TC is a disgrace now. You see at least 2-5 decent tracks out of a feed of say 40...

This is appalling and it is becoming a shambles, the majority of the players though aren't with these forums and there is only so many that want to go the extra mile and put in more than 20 hours into a track.

I think a link on the game would help out alot of players or link some guides to the game to help other track builders have a better understanding of the editor. More like an example...


yeah, i agree with this..i think 25-30 second tracks can still be 'great tracks'..i think once ive done all my video stuff, im going to concentrate on doing some of these tracks..you can still have them looking good with decor etc...and at the same time be nice easy/medium tracks that everyone can play and complete..


I fully agree that shorter tracks can be great tracks, and I feel I took a lot of time on my latest (1 month between track release dates, minus 1.5 week vacation time) and I will see if I can put out some good shorter ones (not rushed, just tracks under a minute drive time, beginner-hard) in the future.

IImayneII
08-28-2013, 12:23 PM
Well if people keep giving tracks with the usual bad stuff (floating obstacles, not aligned driving line, no background whatsoever) 5 star ratings I understand why some people don't even bother learning the editor and putting alot of time in tracks. I think there is not much that will change before this issue is adressed. How do you solve it is the problem. You can inform them more, but I doubt that will really help.

I think I already said this before, but, there should be better feeds (and more). Like a feed where all the tracks can be viewed from people who have let's say half of the platinum medals. If you don't have platinum medals, your skills are probably not good enough to make descent tracks, so it would eliminate alot of bad tracks creators I think and maybe would push people more in going for platinum medals if they want their track to be featured in that feed.

I hope they do something like this, because I will be dissapointed if they leave it like this.

s0ad667
08-28-2013, 05:39 PM
Yeah, i kinda got used to crappy tracks getting a 4-star rating for no reason, but seeing them getting into the 5-star area too, that's even more sad.

RetiredRonin
08-28-2013, 11:57 PM
I think I already said this before, but, there should be better feeds (and more). Like a feed where all the tracks can be viewed from people who have let's say half of the platinum medals. If you don't have platinum medals, your skills are probably not good enough to make descent tracks, so it would eliminate alot of bad tracks creators I think and maybe would push people more in going for platinum medals if they want their track to be featured in that feed.

Getting good times on tracks and being able to create good tracks and not mutually inclusive. Instead you would have people who, while good at racing, can't build that well being put into a feed just because of medal count instead of creative talent. This solution wouldn't fix the perceived issue.

What would be awesome is if every person who played Trials used the same rating conventions and rated each and every single track or skill game they played. it would be great if friend's tracks didn't get 5 stars just because, and if Ninja tracks with little to no detail weren't just rated 5 stars because "Hey, I passed it!". As long as people use completely different rating systems and allow personal bias to flavor their ratings then there will be issues with Track Central.

IImayneII
08-29-2013, 12:57 AM
Getting good times on tracks and being able to create good tracks and not mutually inclusive. Instead you would have people who, while good at racing, can't build that well being put into a feed just because of medal count instead of creative talent. This solution wouldn't fix the perceived issue.

What would be awesome is if every person who played Trials used the same rating conventions and rated each and every single track or skill game they played. it would be great if friend's tracks didn't get 5 stars just because, and if Ninja tracks with little to no detail weren't just rated 5 stars because "Hey, I passed it!". As long as people use completely different rating systems and allow personal bias to flavor their ratings then there will be issues with Track Central.

True. There is probably only one thing that helps living this problem. Being able to subsribe to track creators. I know it has been said alot on the forum already, but it would be awesome if this would be an option in Fusion.

DannersMac
08-30-2013, 12:45 AM
I used to complain about the state of TC on 360 Evo... that was before I got Gold...

TeriXeri
08-30-2013, 09:49 AM
It's impossible to get 100% great true-rated tracks in the feeds, as there's no penalty to uploading tracks, and like shifty says, different opinions are on a very wide spectrum on ratings and skill levels. As long as there's only 1 rating bar, you cannot see if it's the theme or driveline or fun factor etc that's really good/bad, so it tends to go biased to 4-5 stars very often and the crowd follows once it's rated high early.
( I already suggested some form of multi-ratings in the fusion wishlist thread )

Everyone has their own perspective of fun and you can even see this on those forums with some people prefering ninja/donkey/themed/skillgames etc. \
( I don't play ninjas much as that's not my thing for example )

Yesterday I played like a track with a really fun technical driveline but not much theme, I'd like to see builders like that just put a little more effort in the background/lighting/sounds etc and it could make awesome tracks, instead of releasing 2-3 versions in a week, it could be like 1 short track a week with a little more theme.

In the end we just gotta deal with it even while it's sometimes sad to see a track get pushed down the feeds by creators releasing 2-4 tracks in the same week. But there's always the RL pick forum thread to list really quality tracks.

Eg_TrIcKzZ_X
09-23-2013, 01:31 AM
The only reason Track Central is like this on Gold and the XBLA games is because people can't be bothered to pay attention to detail. I don't think this problem can be fixed but you could have staff to do quality check's on random tracks... And the ones with poor detail and lack of scenery get deleted.

Or you could make a filter system so the tracks that are extremely bad don't get published...

Those are two ideas which i thought could be usefull.

IImayneII
09-23-2013, 01:00 PM
But there's always the RL pick forum thread to list really quality tracks.

Well I agree this is one of the few solutions to get good tracks the attention they deserve, but they have totally abandoned this feature in my opinion. They don't do it consistently (maybe 2 picks in one month if we get lucky), and because of that, there are alot of good tracks going under the radar. I don't get it to be honest, it doesn't take that long to find picks since most tracks on TC are just bad, and most of the worthy tracks are from builders who are active on the forum. A pick does alot on the download rate on a track, and I think there are enough builders who deserve picks already for their time and effort they put in their tracks trying to keep the gold edition alive.

But this is just my opinion, clearly RL has other priorities. And if you guy's can't even keep up with the picks now, how are you guys going to do this with fusion when it's on 3 different platforms?

TeriXeri
09-23-2013, 02:01 PM
There were no picks 2 weeks ago, and community picks last week, so I hope to see something for PC this week at least and then hopefully something more even if its 1 track per week.

I know people shouldn't build exclusively for picks, but for fun, but right now TC's slow speed isn't really fun at all.

I would list more tracks in the thread if I could browse tracks at a decent pace but right now it's hardly working to find even 1 track due to TC issues http://forum.redlynx.com/forum/images/smilies/icon/sad.gif

IImayneII
09-23-2013, 02:55 PM
I know people shouldn't build exclusively for picks, but for fun, but right now TC's slow speed isn't really fun at all.

I don't think anybody is really building with the intention to get a pick out of it, I think most good builders build tracks because it is fun and you can be creative.

That being said, it is just a shame seeing alot of good tracks going off the feeds after a week to be never seen/downloaded again when there is alot of work that went into the track. There are alot of bad tracks that get the same attention on TC on a weekly basis and that is what bothers me. If you get one week in the feeds, you can get about 500dl, if it's a pick you can get over 6000 after a month. Not that I'm building for the downloads, but it would be nice if you put +20hrs into a track, that people are able to find it after that week in the feeds. And that is what is happening now, after a week in the feeds you have to be lucky to get a few extra downloads on that track. If it was up to me, I would give most good tracks a pick because of this. It would maybe even motivate other people too, to put that extra effort into a track if they see picks every week. I tought this was the main reason of the picks, but seeing that alot of good tracks don't even get a pick I wonder why the picks are still there to be honest.

rlmergeuser
12-12-2013, 12:03 AM
I know that his is an old topic, but im pretty new to Trials Evo and want to express my opinion on Track Central as well, as i am in some sort of smaller rage mode right now.
First things first:
I can understand that you guys do not like it when people release several tracks a week, since most of the time they did not put much effort into this. I'm totally with you, on that and now have to justify, why i release so many tracks as well http://forum.redlynx.com/forum/images/smilies/icon/biggrin.gif It is because i have a lot of time right now. Just finished school, and until i start studying, it will take a few more month (going to study engineering http://forum.redlynx.com/forum/images/smilies/icon/smile.gif ) + girlfriend just moved elsewhere to get the university place she wanted and i picked up on trials evo just recently, so i put some time into that, as i HAVE some time right now. Thats why tehre are a lot of tracks from me right now on track central, it does not mean that i didn't put a lot of effort into them.

Having this pointed out, i want to underline it again that i am totally against uploading a lot of bad quality tracks per week, just like you.
And as i just looked into TC again, i really felt the need to share my anger with you.
There are SO MANY really really BAD tracks on TC that get at least a 4 star rating... It gets even more frustrating when you look for skillgames.
Compare the Gold Edition skillgames, with the one we have seen on redlynx picks from xbox. On Xbox, there were jump'n' runs, there were Tower Defence games, there were football games, casino games, even monopoly or space invaders.
So whats there on pc?
I just played a track, where the goal is to get to the end. Awesome! Why list it skillgame then?
So the track started and it was horrible. Bad driving line, no deco, the obstacles had no flow, just random crap that was thrown together, floating objects, even floating buildings to drive on, no custom objects, objects disappeaing or popping up, no indication of the driving line, rapid curves in the driving line with a stone directly after the curve, means an instant fault... it was simply HORRIBLE. Whats the rating? guess what, it was FOUR stars.
Some time ago i started building my own skill game, as i really wanted to have good and unique skillgames on pc that are more then driving a bike from A to B. So i started working on a 2D jump and run in Super Mario's world, since this world is easy to deco and i had some custom objects and expirience with this theme from other tracks. I put a lot of time into figureing out how all this stuff works with forces, variable data sources and skillgames itself and i am content with the final verison of it, which is already released to TC. I thought like, well it is something NEW, at least for Gold Edition and i put a lot of effort into it, it was a pain in the *** building this skillgame, but i wanted to get it done.
Just checked out, it has got a THREE star rating.

So i'll point the facts out again:
Skillgame 1: A trials track with little to no effort into it and just the usual sh*t you find on TC
Skillgame 2: At least an ambitious skillgame that took some work.
I do not want to say that my skillgame is better than the other one from my example, since i am not the one to judge that, but at least i can confidentaly say that I put A LOT more effort into it.
My conclusion of this is, that most of the people that still play Trials Evo actually LIKE and WANT this sh*t.
The same goes for Trials tracks.

I know that most of the stuff I release can still be improved a lot and i am not the best track builder in the world (this title would probably go to other people that are active here on the forum) but i confidentally claim that i am above the TC average. It is not hard to get above this average, but it feels so destroying to get your tracks, in which you put a lot of effort, actually rated worse than the typical random-stuff-with-no-deco-and-no-fun-stuff out there.

I think TeriXeris idea of rating Driving line, theme, flow and so on seperatley is a GREAT idea, also bassline's idea of subcribing tracks.

I could go on writing now and start complaining about the feed as well, but i simply stick to what bassline had said about this, since i have not much more to add to his words.

All in all my point is:
It is hard to keep on building tracks for the Trials Evo Gold Community. I know, that this is not true to all players of this game, especially not to these on this forums (should have thought about it earlier, the people i can adress here know about the problem as well...), but obviously to many, since this crappy tracks get really good ratings.
So finally, there is nothing more to say than THANK YOU to the few track builders that keep o building quality tracks, even though most of the community is somehow unappreciativley. This thank you goes out to people like TeriXeri, Bassline, Eddeman, Psycad, Smilies2013, kalianhagle and all th others i have forgotten. I think by now everyone knows the name of the real quality track builders.
It's hard to do your work guys!

rlmergeuser
12-12-2013, 12:09 AM
Feels good to having this said!

damassacre
12-12-2013, 01:47 AM
I think the rating system is partly to blame for TC's problems. On the surface a 5 star rating system might seem enough and some even suggest that a longer (10 star) rating system is better but I tend to think the answer lies in the opposite direction: a binary rating system in the form of 'like or dislike'.A track's rating can then be presented to the user still in a 5 star manner but the difference being that the overall rating was calculated from the numbers of likes and dislikes rated by different users. In addition, maybe split the ratings into different sections such as driving line, background and medal times with an overall average rating for each track. This way users can additionally search TC based on driving line, background, etc.
I've seen this binary system in several places so far, most notably in the steam workshop and in project spark. Both work pretty well IMO and I think the reason is because it makes rating easier (hence more people actually rate!) and also avoids dividing users' ratings down the middle. For instance most of the tracks in trials end up being in the 3-4 star range because humans will always gravitate towards the middle when faced with a decision they are not sure of. So you might find two 4 star tracks which vary greatly in quality. In contrast, a binary system forces the user to choose one extreme rating. As a result, a track that most people like will eventually end up in the 4-5 star range while a track that most people dislike goes in the opposite direction. I'm not saying the current system doesn't somewhat do this already but a binary rating system I think (and from experience) functions better in this regard.
The only sure thing is that the current rating system isn't doing its job of bringing the best tracks to the forefront well and a change is needed.

rlmergeuser
12-12-2013, 10:52 AM
I don't think that a binary rating system would work as well.
Look at youtube, I think that at least 90% of the videos have a positive like/dislike rating, no matter how crappy they are.
Also, it would leave many uncertain on how to rate a track. If they are not sure how to rate it, they will look at what the majority does and rate it the same.
Consequently, tracks that get good first ratings would probably get many more good ratings, no matter how good/bad they are.

I would appreciate a system, in which you can rate stuff like driving line etc seperatley, like I said befor, in combination with some kind of "expert rating".
Basically, your track would get 2 seperate ratings.
Rating Nr.1:
Everyone can rate, except for the "experts", in a subdivided rating system.
Ratin Nr.2, which will be displayed directly under rating Nr.1:
Only "experts" are able to rate here. For this matter, there should be a leaderboard for Track Builders, in which the download numbers and the average rating of their tracks are taken into consideration, to determine like for example the best 1000 Trackbuilders.
Or, if you do not like the leaderboard, just let redlynx determine some players they KNOW are exceptionally skilled in building tracks, like the Wrenchholders on the Xbox and let them be these experts.
This way, you have 2 subdivided rating systems that are displayed to everyone.
Then you can decide yourself, if you put more weight into the experts or into the "normal" community.

The main problem of the rating system are the players, as they might not know what makes a track good or even outstanding. For this matter, you can rely on an expert system.

Also, what i noticed in Evo and which is bad, is, that when you finish a track, take a look into leaderboards and instantly play the track again because you liked it, the rating bar will not pop up anymore for this track. You then have to manually go to the "rate track" option. I think that many people just forget about rating the track, when this bar doesn't pop up. Just make it so that the player is asked to rate everytime he plays the track and has not rated it yet.

rlmergeuser
12-12-2013, 11:13 AM
Good tip for starter builders. check this link below
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tX1W-pXzEwo

Track building takes time and patience, and as i learned, a lot people don't have time or the patience.
Some tracks cant even be finished, so i hope in fusion u must finish ur track before able to share it.
instead of waiting 30min to pass it.

Eddeman
12-18-2013, 12:18 PM
Good tip for starter builders. check this link below
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tX1W-pXzEwo

That video is really good, I watched it (and most of the tutorial vids) when I first started making tracks and it helped me a lot.

Part of the problem with bad tracks being high rated is that you can tell from the thumbnail that they are probably gonna be really ****ty, and you end up not even trying them.
I'm talking about tracks where everything is floating and made from 1 type of plank, driving over cars for a minute or 10 backwheel hops in a row on some small barrels.

If I do end up downloading something and the obstacles are ******** ninja stuff with no consistent way to pass them,
I usually just quit and delete it rather than trying to pass something that seemingly had no testing done at all.



Ratin Nr.2, which will be displayed directly under rating Nr.1:
Only "experts" are able to rate here. For this matter, there should be a leaderboard for Track Builders, in which the download numbers and the average rating of their tracks are taken into consideration, to determine like for example the best 1000 Trackbuilders.
Or, if you do not like the leaderboard, just let redlynx determine some players they KNOW are exceptionally skilled in building tracks, like the Wrenchholders on the Xbox and let them be these experts.
This way, you have 2 subdivided rating systems that are displayed to everyone.
Then you can decide yourself, if you put more weight into the experts or into the "normal" community.

Interesting idea but the "experts" would be chosen by the same broken system you are trying to fix.
If you let RedLynx pick them it would be a big circle-jerk, where there's a handful of people who will be playing
whatever looks good and ignoring the rest so they wouldn't have a second rating.

Though I guess the lack of a rating is also a sign of the quality, depending on how long since it was released.