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munnst
09-16-2004, 09:02 AM
Hi,

I just had a 30 minute flight in a Boeing Stearman which included 15 mins of hands on stick and rudder flying.

Wow, what a reality check!

First of all I flew the aircraft pretty well which I attribute to my many hours of simulated play. Aircraft was light on aileron but heavy on rudder. Rudder required quite a lot of effort (to my untrained feet). Aileron control was light and very responsive. Aircraft did not have a tendency to roll due to torque and kept a very level attitude. Performed several moderate turns which pushed me into the seat. Weather was quite turbulent and I had several sharp wing `dips` which I had to correct.
The biggest difference with Il2 was the feeling of isolation and vunerability. To be honest I doubt I would be able to pull off the stunts I do in Il2 in a real aircraft due to a very real feeling of self preservation. I also noticed I got quite tired due to concentration and physical effort.

Throughout the flight altitude was approximately 1000feet and airspeed 85-90 knots.

It was very noisy!

Il2 is good but it's not substitute for the real thing.

munnst
09-16-2004, 09:02 AM
Hi,

I just had a 30 minute flight in a Boeing Stearman which included 15 mins of hands on stick and rudder flying.

Wow, what a reality check!

First of all I flew the aircraft pretty well which I attribute to my many hours of simulated play. Aircraft was light on aileron but heavy on rudder. Rudder required quite a lot of effort (to my untrained feet). Aileron control was light and very responsive. Aircraft did not have a tendency to roll due to torque and kept a very level attitude. Performed several moderate turns which pushed me into the seat. Weather was quite turbulent and I had several sharp wing `dips` which I had to correct.
The biggest difference with Il2 was the feeling of isolation and vunerability. To be honest I doubt I would be able to pull off the stunts I do in Il2 in a real aircraft due to a very real feeling of self preservation. I also noticed I got quite tired due to concentration and physical effort.

Throughout the flight altitude was approximately 1000feet and airspeed 85-90 knots.

It was very noisy!

Il2 is good but it's not substitute for the real thing.

TD_Klondike
09-16-2004, 09:09 AM
AGREED! I think you're spot on with the observation about isolation and vulnerability. When you're in an airplane, it occurs to you that you HAVE to land the airplane, which is thankfully optional in computer simulations. It's my personal opinion that everybody that loves computer flying should drop $50 or so bucks at a local airport and go up for an intro flight.

GT182
09-16-2004, 09:35 AM
Double agree! Nothing like the real thing to make you appreciate "being up there" pc flying. You can't feel it being real online without first hand knowldge of a barf bag. Now that's a reality check. LOL

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IL2-chuter
09-16-2004, 12:35 PM
Absolutely http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

There is NO WAY I could begin to fly a real plane the way I (and others) fly online http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif.

What's an old man to do . . . http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

"I fly only Full Real in Il2 Forgotten Battles." -Mark Donohue

S 8
09-16-2004, 12:49 PM
I got a flying lesson for birthday present and it‚¬īs due this saturaday and I have NEVER flown before at all so....I‚¬īm terrified and excited at the same time,mostly beacuse the lack of refly button http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

PBNA-Boosher
09-16-2004, 12:57 PM
"For once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been, and there you will long to return."

Leonardo Da Vinci

Boosher
_____________________________
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WTE_Galway
09-16-2004, 05:46 PM
love the stearman

wonderful aeroplane

Macel
09-16-2004, 05:56 PM
Im interested in hearing from someone who's landed a plane in RL how it compares to that of a simulator landing... Particularly on the subject of distance, velocity and height judgement (without relying on the instruments too much). In IL2 and FS2004 I can land a plane without looking at the instruments, except for a few glances at my speed to make sure its safe to lower flaps/gear etc... I've noticed that the runways appear much larger in FS2004 (actually, I think they are much wider), so it tends to give a slight impression that you're approaching the runway from a steeper angle than in IL2, but I was able to easily adapt to it...

What Im wondering is if eye-hand coordination and judgement skills gained from landing in a simulator would significantly help landing a real plane..

Duncan_Doenitz
09-16-2004, 06:27 PM
Real life vs flying in our game...

A recent experience has me rethinking one part of offline missions in the game.

Yesterday, a commercal flight that was stuck circling the Duluth Minnesota airport was sent back to its origin in Minneapolis due to poor visibility.

Of course, the challenge of finding the assigned landing field in IL-2 is a fun and interesting task, often resulting in one or more go-arounds and some dangerous landings.

Now I'll think seriously about diverting to a larger and easier preferably paved field when the original destination is a small grass field, a more realistic approach instead of relying on a refly of the mission if the landing goes terribly wrong.

Dunc

Odranoel1
09-17-2004, 01:28 PM
A few weeks ago, I also had my first flying experience. Very clear but turbulent weather, instructor goes: use the instruments to keep your alt and heading
After 5 minutes of staring at the instrument panel and correcting the effect of wind gusts, I got airsick http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif
My whole family sitting in the back row saw the instructor reach for a paper bag... Fortunately I just managed to survive until we landed... I recall saying "never again", but I'll take that back! I really want to give it another try, on a calm day!

Bearcat99
09-17-2004, 01:44 PM
I had the same thing a few weeks ago... I posted on it too. A whole nother thing entirely.. thats why I no longer use the term "Full Real". I prefer "Full Immersion" because you are immersed in the sim.. but it in no way comes close to the real deal and wont untill we can model gravity and inertia effects on the body. Not to mention that bone shattering drone from the engine.

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fuser59
09-17-2004, 03:06 PM
I solo'd my fathers plane (Cessna 150) when I was 13 y.o. Just a routine T.O.. 4 turns, and Landing I thought. My father thought it would be no problem, since I had flown with him often, and had alot of "Stick" time. Out he got and there I was. Alone at last! Not wanting to be too hard on the engine, I eased the throttle fwd to less than full throttle and began to build up speed... humm, something wrong here I thought as the end of the RW loomed neerer. Although I could rotate the nosegear off the ground, I wasnt lifting off. At last the end of the runway was very near, and my quest to be easy on the engine was out the window! I floored it, and jerked the plane off the ground just as the tires probably brushed the tall weeds at the end of the paved strip. Now Im looking at the tops of trees whisping just below my wheels along with the sound of the stall buzzer going off! Still unafraid, I lowered the nose slightly and the little plane begain accelerate and the controls became more responseve. Just as I began a left turn a sudden swoosh of wind engulfed the little cabin of the plane and I saw my dad's door fling open slightly causing papers, dust, and god knows what elese to fly around violently. As I reached over to grab the doorhandle and close it, I noticed the trees below, and estimated I was about 4 or 5 hundred feet high. I slammed the door closed until it securily latched. After 2 more left turns, i was getting ready to land when I noticed a rather large 2 eng acft be-lining it for a landing. He was about 200 ft below me and probably 1/2 mile away, so I just kind of loitered my position where I was until he was down and off the runway. then, I reduced power untill the plane was slowly decending, made another left turn, probably 1/2 mile from the runway, and using the steering yoke to control my acft's pitch, stretched it to a perfect landing. Scared, and proud at the same time! How many instruments I used??? NONE! ZILCH! ZERO!!!
I would not recomend doing what I did to anyone, but to this day, I am proud of my father having enough faith in me to let me try it on my own.
BTW, When I taxied up to him, he looked white, ashen, and sweaty! hehe. Thanx Dad!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Macel:
Im interested in hearing from someone who's landed a plane in RL how it compares to that of a simulator landing... Particularly on the subject of distance, velocity and height judgement (without relying on the instruments too much). In IL2 and FS2004 I can land a plane without looking at the instruments, except for a few glances at my speed to make sure its safe to lower flaps/gear etc... I've noticed that the runways appear much larger in FS2004 (actually, I think they are much wider), so it tends to give a slight impression that you're approaching the runway from a steeper angle than in IL2, but I was able to easily adapt to it...

What Im wondering is if eye-hand coordination and judgement skills gained from landing in a simulator would significantly help landing a real plane..<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

RogueRunner
09-17-2004, 03:45 PM
Sim flying vs the real thing...the age old debate. I'm a PPL holder working towards my commercial license here in South Africa and I maintain that a good sim pilot will do good the first time in a real plane but would not be able to safely land and takeoff in one. Yes, he might get lucky and land the plane on the first circuit but somewhere along the line he is going to dent the thing and himself in the process.

There is alot of things that sims just don't teach you that you have to do in the real thing. For instance, leaning the fuel mixture when your pressure altitude is more than 3000' and then leaning it even more in the cruise and making it richer for the final approach. In a variable pitch aircraft by bringing the RPM back to 2500 just after taekoff in a C210 for example and then further bringing it back in the cruise. Again on final approach setting it to full fine for the possible go around. In a decent from high altitude you will in still air decent in the yellow arc but in turbulant air only top of the green arc on the speed indicator. Also in the decent with a low power setting and in piston aircraft you cannot just take the power away and leave it there and decent through 10 000' without seriously damaging or even breaking the engine, it's called shock cooling and the pilot must know how to prevent these things. All of these no sim on the market teaches you currently.

Now you still need to talk to someone in a tower and other aircraft and to the untrained ear this conversations are normally just a bunch of gibberish.

What do you do in a crosswind situation? Fly in cross controls or one wing low and into the wind with a offset to compensate for the wind, are you allowed to slip the particular aircraft with flaps deployed? What is the rotation speed, the approach speed and the flap and gear extension speeds?

Now since the takeoff is in my opinion the most dangerous part of any flight it's not neccesary the most difficult part. Landing on the other hand is also very dangerous but it's a little more difficult to master than a takeoff. While flying the approach, which would be 80mph (70kts) in a C172 with 20deg flap on final you will want to flare at about 60mph and touch the wheels as the stall horn starts to scream at you. This is where everyone I've flown with and given the chance to fly the approach stuff it up! They would either flare to high which will cause a stall high above the runway which again will cause the nose to drop (hopefully just the nose as there is no power on but there is flaps in the wind that can cause a wingdrop) and thus landing nosewheel first which will cause wheelburrowing (if the wheel is still attached to the airplane at this stage) where he is almost certain to loose control and vacate the runway and end with the aircraft laying on it's back. Or they simply just flare too late or not at all and will fly the plane into the ground which can cause it to bounce and if high enough and he then pulls back on the stick to flare at this stage, stall and now plant the nosewheel again (see above http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ) or he simply bounces of the runway and see above, or the landing gear will loose the fight in which case you will hear a very nasty lound screaching sound http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Sim hours will let a guy learn to fly much quicker, he will almost always solo before someone else who started at the same time as him but flying a plane is a little more than just left, right, up and down.

LStarosta
09-17-2004, 03:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by fuser59:
I solo'd my fathers plane (Cessna 150) when I was 13 y.o. Just a routine T.O.. 4 turns, and Landing I thought. My father thought it would be no problem, since I had flown with him often, and had alot of "Stick" time. Out he got and there I was. Alone at last! Not wanting to be too hard on the engine, I eased the throttle fwd to less than full throttle and began to build up speed... humm, something wrong here I thought as the end of the RW loomed neerer. Although I could rotate the nosegear off the ground, I wasnt lifting off. At last the end of the runway was very near, and my quest to be easy on the engine was out the window! I floored it, and jerked the plane off the ground just as the tires probably brushed the tall weeds at the end of the paved strip. Now Im looking at the tops of trees whisping just below my wheels along with the sound of the stall buzzer going off! Still unafraid, I lowered the nose slightly and the little plane begain accelerate and the controls became more responseve. Just as I began a left turn a sudden swoosh of wind engulfed the little cabin of the plane and I saw my dad's door fling open slightly causing papers, dust, and god knows what elese to fly around violently. As I reached over to grab the doorhandle and close it, I noticed the trees below, and estimated I was about 4 or 5 hundred feet high. I slammed the door closed until it securily latched. After 2 more left turns, i was getting ready to land when I noticed a rather large 2 eng acft be-lining it for a landing. He was about 200 ft below me and probably 1/2 mile away, so I just kind of loitered my position where I was until he was down and off the runway. then, I reduced power untill the plane was slowly decending, made another left turn, probably 1/2 mile from the runway, and using the steering yoke to control my acft's pitch, stretched it to a perfect landing. Scared, and proud at the same time! How many instruments I used??? NONE! ZILCH! ZERO!!!
I would not recomend doing what I did to anyone, but to this day, I am proud of my father having enough faith in me to let me try it on my own.
BTW, When I taxied up to him, he looked white, ashen, and sweaty! hehe. Thanx Dad!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Macel:
Im interested in hearing from someone who's landed a plane in RL how it compares to that of a simulator landing... Particularly on the subject of distance, velocity and height judgement (without relying on the instruments too much). In IL2 and FS2004 I can land a plane without looking at the instruments, except for a few glances at my speed to make sure its safe to lower flaps/gear etc... I've noticed that the runways appear much larger in FS2004 (actually, I think they are much wider), so it tends to give a slight impression that you're approaching the runway from a steeper angle than in IL2, but I was able to easily adapt to it...

What Im wondering is if eye-hand coordination and judgement skills gained from landing in a simulator would significantly help landing a real plane..<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


And you still haven't been bum raped by the FAA yet?!


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CAP401
09-17-2004, 04:17 PM
I soloed in a glider this past summer in the Civil Air Patrol. As you can imagine, very different experience!!!. I had flown about 4 1/2 hours in a C172(Not a lot I know) with an instructor in the cockpit and did okay. But this was the real deal. Actual flight training. And our instructor was one mean SOB when it came down to flying. On downwind leg(which was right over the sitting area of those wanting for flights), you could hear every word he was yelling at the student since he had the window open ,). Well, in the beginning it wasn't so bad. But when he had us handling takeoffs and landings(or at least trying to) it got bad. "Get your head out your a$$, keep flying the airplane!!! You'd better not kill my towpilot or ME!!!" When taking off in a glider, you have to concentrate really hard. You first immediately push the nose down because it flys up on the inital jolt. then you have to gentle raise it off the ground and keep it 3-6 feet off the ground. If u don't, you'll pull the tail of the towplane up, and drive his nose into the ground and kill the towpilot/plane. And on landings, well you had better land it the first time right because there's no go-around's! But he taught me judgement and got me to solo in a week of almost non-stop flying time. I really appreciate all the training he gave me and will always remember what he taught me. I think I have 55 hours in a glider now and will be taking my FAA Test shortly. Not bad for a 14 yr old kid http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif.

CAP401
09-17-2004, 04:23 PM
Correction: 5 hours and about 50 mins of glider flying time. I knew that it didn't make sense when I typed it. Had to go check the log book. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/52.gif

WTE_Galway
09-17-2004, 08:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Macel:
Im interested in hearing from someone who's landed a plane in RL how it compares to that of a simulator landing... Particularly on the subject of distance, velocity and height judgement (without relying on the instruments too much). In IL2 and FS2004 I can land a plane without looking at the instruments, except for a few glances at my speed to make sure its safe to lower flaps/gear etc... I've noticed that the runways appear much larger in FS2004 (actually, I think they are much wider), so it tends to give a slight impression that you're approaching the runway from a steeper angle than in IL2, but I was able to easily adapt to it...

What Im wondering is if eye-hand coordination and judgement skills gained from landing in a simulator would significantly help landing a real plane..<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

when i was learning to fly i was using FS2002 and that made my landings in real life significantly WORSE as in a real cessna you really have to pull the yoke back hard to hold off in flare (virtually back to your chest in some cases) or you whack the runway with a crunch .. but in FS2002 anything more than a very slight back pressure has the plane nosing up in a totally unrealistic fashion

Bearcat99
09-17-2004, 09:51 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by RogueRunner:
Sim flying vs the real thing...the age old debate. I'm a PPL holder working towards my commercial license here in South Africa and I maintain that a good sim pilot will do good the first time in a real plane but would not be able to safely land and takeoff in one. Yes, he might get lucky and land the plane on the first circuit but somewhere along the line he is going to dent the thing and himself in the process.

There is alot of things that sims just don't teach you that you have to do in the real thing. For instance, leaning the fuel mixture when your pressure altitude is more than 3000' and then leaning it even more in the cruise and making it richer for the final approach. In a variable pitch aircraft by bringing the RPM back to 2500 just after taekoff in a C210 for example and then further bringing it back in the cruise. Again on final approach setting it to full fine for the possible go around. In a decent from high altitude you will in still air decent in the yellow arc but in turbulant air only top of the green arc on the speed indicator. Also in the decent with a low power setting and in piston aircraft you cannot just take the power away and leave it there and decent through 10 000' without seriously damaging or even breaking the engine, it's called shock cooling and the pilot must know how to prevent these things. All of these no sim on the market teaches you currently.

Now you still need to talk to someone in a tower and other aircraft and to the untrained ear this conversations are normally just a bunch of gibberish.

What do you do in a crosswind situation? Fly in cross controls or one wing low and into the wind with a offset to compensate for the wind, are you allowed to slip the particular aircraft with flaps deployed? What is the rotation speed, the approach speed and the flap and gear exten

Loco-S
09-17-2004, 11:44 PM
Main Difference?...

1- visibility: you can not judge distances in a computer as you can do in RL, also, in RL you can move your head and body to see over the panel, around, and back, without fiddling with a little knob on your stick

2- hands and feet to control the plane, the fabled " seat of the pants" can tell you a million things that your desk chair cant, sounds, smell, and relative movement are things you need in real life.

3- In rl flight experience is something you learn, or better said something is taught with the five senses working, is not uni directional and and the learning curve is way more steep than in a PC, and there is no "refly" button.

4- every flight is different

5- in RL fear is real and is not fun

6- in RL you have to know and be trained by somebody who actually knows what the plane can and cant do, otherwise you are a test pilot, and your life expectancy is measured in minutes or seconds if something catches you by surprise or you dont know how and when to operate it .

7- and the most important is: in RL you have to be constantly training, no " kick the tires light the fires" thing that most of us do in a PC.

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Bearcat99
09-18-2004, 12:02 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by RogueRunner:
Sim flying vs the real thing...the age old debate. I'm a PPL holder working towards my commercial license here in South Africa and I maintain that a good sim pilot will do good the first time in a real plane but would not be able to safely land and takeoff in one. Yes, he might get lucky and land the plane on the first circuit but somewhere along the line he is going to dent the thing and hi

LEXX_Luthor
09-18-2004, 12:42 AM
Some good points here, especially about PC flight simming teaching how to basically fly unless something goes badly wrong.

But teaching people how to fly is not the design purpose of PC combat flight sims. For training purposes, a flight sim needs only one (1) airplane in the air. That is all.

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Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

LEXX_Luthor
09-18-2004, 01:14 AM
Loco~S:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Main Difference?...

1- visibility: you can not judge distances in a computer as you can do in RL, also, in RL you can move your head and body to see over the panel, around, and back, without fiddling with a little knob on your stick<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes you can judge distance in a computer sim, but it takes "training" or shall we say deep familiarity with your specific computer game--we may agree that this "training" may not always be helpful for real life distance determination while flying real life aircraft.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>2- hands and feet to control the plane, the fabled "seat of the pants" can tell you a million things that your desk chair cant, sounds, smell, and relative movement are things you need in real life.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Don't always trust your senses especially if they conflict with your instrument panel. Many combat pilots have flown with no legs, flown with one eye, they all adapt--if they survive combat. One may lose sense of smell. Things are not so simple.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>3- In rl flight experience is something you learn, or better said something is taught with the five senses working, is not uni directional and and the learning curve is way more steep than in a PC, and there is no "refly" button.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Real life deaf pilots who cannot hear sound can fly real life planes. Again, just not so simple.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>4- every flight is different<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This can be addressed if the flight sim Devs are on the ball. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

If one wanted, one may program many events to surprise the PC simmer--Icing is one I would love to see, but we can agree this is *always* overlooked by all PC combat flight sim Devs everywhere. Another idea is human control of a training sim, where the controller throws surprises at the simmer (specifically thinking of Apollo ground controllers simulating Moon missions under the guidance, or shall we say maniacal Terror, of the simulation master--same with LM sims where Neil Armstrong was the only LM pilot who never Whined about the Sim Master's Terror) http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Intriguing Point:: Neil Armstrong spent astronomically far more time in LM ground Simulator than the few minutes flying real life LM. A good guess would be 10,000 times more time spent in the ground simulator than flying LM one and only one time. * He also spent more time flying the LM jet powered simulator. Here he needed hands on physical experience, or "feel," for the bizzare machine.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>5- in RL fear is real and is not fun<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Agreed. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>7- and the most important is: in RL you have to be constantly training, no "kick the tires light the fires" thing that most of us do in a PC.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
...that makes us PC simmers closer to real life WW2 pilots who often had almost no aircraft training before being thrown into the air by themselves in high performance aircraft--never mind thrown into combat (why do I have to tell you this??). We are confusing "modern" civil aviation and all its Regulations with WW2 combat aviation.


Loco...your language again:: If Fiddling with your joystick button will embarass you in front of your fellow real life pilots, you may wish to stay away from PC combat flight sims before they Out you. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


These points show that modern pilots, both civil and military, do have some restrictions on useful inputs in PC combat flight sims--at least sims modding older air combat, a different aviation world than we live in today.

__________________
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"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

F19_Ob
09-18-2004, 05:00 AM
The best thing with a sim is the non-puking option.

TD_Klondike
09-18-2004, 12:07 PM
I would argue that PC flying does one important, important thing to help you in real life flying: it gives an intuitive understanding of what the controls do. At least with a good sim. You learn what ailerons do, what the elevator does, and what rudder pedals do. If it's a good sim, it will teach you about aileron position in varying degrees of bank, and your reactions become somewhat automatic. If you've never flown a plane or a sim, it's going to take you longer to learn what basic control inputs do.

Beyond that, I don't think there's much of a connection. Factors like visibility, motion, and mortality make flying a real plane very, very, very different.

P.S. I got my CFI ticket on Thursday. Anybody know of any jobs? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Heavy_Weather
09-18-2004, 01:21 PM
finally, a "full real" thread. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

"To fly a combat mission is not a trip under the moon. Every attack, every bombing is a dance with death."
- Serafima Amsova-Taranenko: Noggle, Ann (1994): A Dance with Death.

Loco-S
09-18-2004, 02:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
Yes you can judge distance in a computer sim, but it takes "training" or shall we say deep familiarity with your specific computer game--we may agree that this "training" may not always be helpful for real life distance determination while flying real life aircraft.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

you can not replace binocular vision with a two dimensional monitor


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Don't always trust your senses especially if they conflict with your instrument panel. Many combat pilots have flown with no legs, flown with one eye, they _all_ adapt--if they survive combat. One may lose sense of smell. Things are not so simple. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

let me see...Douglas, Bader, Hans Rudel, Adolf Galland, yes, they adapt, but three or five names wont substitute 250,000 airmen who flew on the ETO alone, if you were not fit you were moved to lesser demanding positions. as you say, things are not so simple.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Real life deaf pilots who cannot hear sound can fly real life planes. Again, just not so simple.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Deaf pilots cant fly combat aircraft, GA is another thing, as long your license has the limitation: not valid for flight operations requiring the use of radio equipment , and : not valid for flight into Imc conditions or the use of radio navigation equipment", check with your FSDO for further details.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
If one wanted, one may program many events to surprise the PC simmer--Icing is one I would love to see, but we can agree this is *always* overlooked by all PC combat flight sim Devs everywhere. Another idea is human control of a training sim, where the controller throws surprises at the simmer (specifically thinking of Apollo ground controllers simulating Moon missions under the guidance, or shall we say maniacal Terror, of the simulation master--same with LM sims where Neil Armstrong was the only LM pilot who never Whined about the Sim Master's Terror) http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Intriguing Point:: Neil Armstrong spent astronomically far more time in LM ground Simulator than the few minutes flying real life LM. A good guess would be 10,000 times more time spent in the ground simulator than flying LM one and only one time. * He also spent more time flying the LM jet powered simulator. Here he needed hands on physical experience, or "feel," for the bizzare machine.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

have you seen the mockup of the sim used for the apollo missions?..its a full size, full operational gizmo with all the systems in the right places doing what they were going to do in real life, it was not a keyboard and a joystick in front of a monitor.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
...that makes us PC simmers closer to real life WW2 pilots who often had almost no aircraft training before being thrown into the air by themselves in high performance aircraft--never mind thrown into combat (why do I have to tell you this??). We are confusing "modern" civil aviation and all its Regulations with WW2 combat aviation. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

the main difference between Civil aviation and military aviation is that you will never sleep good after sending a 80 hours training pilot to a front line squadron where his life expentancy was less than 5 missions, again, would you get into a plane just for kicks and go fight somebody several hours away without knowing the basics of the plane?...if you do, good luck and leave me your dog.

as a CFI I will never leave somebody solo a plane until Im 100 % sure he will not kill himself or somebody else due to lack of knowledge and experience in what I want him to do.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Loco...your language again:: If _Fiddling_ with your joystick button will embarass you in front of your fellow real life pilots, you may wish to stay away from PC combat flight sims before they Out you. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

you would be surprised at what you can hear regularly in a flight operations room, the joystick thing is the least blushing phrase you might hear.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
These points show that modern pilots, both civil and military, do have some restrictions on useful inputs in PC combat flight sims--at least sims modding older air combat, a different aviation world than we live in today.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I have seen some fighter jocks get in front of a PC boasting " I know how to do this", and get destroyed in minutes due to accident or enemy action...later they said, "man, this is way different than RL", we are comparing apples with corn, ( way different than apples and oranges)

you cant compare RL with a Computer simulation other than the basic underlying fact that one is real and other is a make believe.

unless you have a full size cockpit at home with all the systems working and connected to a six axis full motion rig in a 360 degree field of vision projection system....aint happening anytime soon.


you can be an expert at this sim, but I bet a month salary that you couldnt fly for real in a complex environment with a complex high powered aircraft without suffering some major anxiety attack. ( this being without formal and structured training in a real life aircraft)

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[This message was edited by Loco-S on Sat September 18 2004 at 01:30 PM.]

triggerhappyfin
09-18-2004, 04:34 PM
Simulation versus Real World flying:

When flying in real world...you dont get that major drop in fps when using perfect settings http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif

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Heads-on firing was not a safe practice after all ?
Jussi Huotari: It was not specially recommended‚.....
And later, as the Russians were armed with 20mm cannons, it was unwise to meet them heads-on

robban75
09-18-2004, 05:22 PM
I've done some cool manouvers in a C-152. The hammerhead and split-S manouvers were probably the most memorable ones! They are all easy to do, just make sure not to overspeed, and also make sure to have lots of altitude! How I would love to fly a real Fw 190! I'm a holder of a commercial multi engine license, but I haven't flow a real plane for at least a year, it's just too expensive. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

However IL2/FB replicates flying quite well. not in overall experience, but the general feel on how a real plane behaves is quite well modelled IMHO! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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JoachimvMayern
09-18-2004, 10:17 PM
I would LOVE to try this and someone please tell me if this is possible. On il2 ACE, is there a way to do a cfg hack that will allow you to fly in pitch black conditions? I just want to see my instrument panel, the cockpit and nothing else outside the aircraft. I will create a mission in the full mission designer that will create 2 runways with camp fires in order to see the runway. What I can't understand is how the game is set up now in regards to flying at night. I mean, you fly at 01:20 hours and where is all that light coming from? It just looks way to bright.

Kefuddle
09-19-2004, 10:30 AM
Joachim,

I just posted something related in the "disorientation" thread. You will be very very suprised just how much you can see at night so long as you take great care to let your eyes get accustomed to the dark (takes about half an hour) and you do not subject yourself to any bright lights (cockpit lights off and just the red dome and/or red pillar lights is all that is required). It only takes a quick flash of a torch to ruin it, then you can see f*** all for half and hour again. Red torches prevent that. However, it is not possible to read a UK CAA chart with a red torch so I use an orange lens in a mini maglite.

karost
09-19-2004, 11:44 AM
in sim we still have a second chance for our mistake but in real life flying if you make a bigggg mistake ....well .... we knowed what it's meaning.!

this sim did not teach about how terrible for torgue effect and crosswind take off/landing look like , just give us a fun.

S!

Jungmann
09-19-2004, 03:50 PM
Biggest single difference, IMHO, between sim and RL flying? Peripheral vision. Our sim cockpits are like flying with a scuba mask on. Being able to see 140 or so degrees makes all the difference in maneuvering an aircraft on takeoff, landing, and doing aerobatics (a good hammerhead means you have to hold a good vertical line at the same time you hold a horizontal, e.g.)

Not that I don't love the game.

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Jungmann

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FI WILLIE
09-19-2004, 04:15 PM
I agree with Jungmann. LACK of peripheral vison and most of the rest of the cues that tell you what is happening to your plane. If you're in a skidding turn you're not sliding sideways in the seat in for of the Sim.

Takeoffs always got my adrenaline up more than landing. All it takes it ONE significant 180‚? windshift while you are on the roll in an underpowered single engine bird and you can seriously think about how much it's going to cost to have the seat surgically removed from your bum. Lowering the nose when a plane is ground effect goes against every thing you think you know. However the ONLY way to get altitude is via speed. The only way to get speed is drop the nose. IL2 doesn't have ground effect modelled into that I can tell. It would be nice.

Stearmans are GREAT beasts to clank around in. Loud, slow, pretty forgiving and built line a tank. They land better on grass than pavement too. You got to "plant" them on a hard surface to get the gear to spread out right. I never enjoyed that. However, I did enjoy busting FAR's doing acro by moonlight over downtown Dallas in one. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

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-HH-Quazi
09-19-2004, 04:53 PM
I have flown several times as a passenger in small single engine ac. Everytime, I intently watched the pilot, a good friend, and everything he did before and after the flight. The pre-flight inspection alone was intense imo. He took the better part of 45 minute visually inspecting and preparing the plane for flight. At the time, we were making flights between extreme upper east TN. down to Nashville and back. I tried to question him all I could without interupting his concentration, especially when preparing his flight plan. Before and during take off, his eyes were on the instruments, checking temps and pressures. Even while building speed for take off, he only glanced out the side of the window then watched the instrument panel. After take off, he trimmed for climb, never really having to pull back on the yoke for altitude. We reached a crusing alt of 15,000ft then he trimmed for cruise. The tail wind gave us a cruise speed of 240mph on one occasion. And on each trip, he pointed out emergency landing sites at different intervals. He assured me that if the engine just upped and quit, that at the altitude we were flying, he always had a place to land the plane, no matter where we were into our flight path. (His flight paths were always straight lines. I asked him why and he said the shortest distance between to points was a straight line. loll And since he was having to fund the trip by purchasing the fuel for it, that this saved him a few bucks. Simple as that.) At the time, I didn't know what a flight sim was and had never played one. And I was a bit sketical about gliding an ac with no power in for a landing. But he was confident in his statement and I was inclined to believe him. I will never forget the experience and I do believe I would make a decent pilot and a bit easier to train because of the sim. BTW, there was a thread a while back about two of our Chinese brethren flying a vintage WWII ac for the first time and actually took the pilots seat and successfully took off, performed a few rolls, and then landed, all with the instructor in the back seat. Afterwards, the instructor said that he was amazed and that flying FB really helped these guys. He said it took 20 hours to train other students to do the same as these guys did. The thread is way back somewhere. It would be an interesting read again for some of the newer forum members.

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LEXX_Luthor
09-19-2004, 08:18 PM
Interesting observations. Thanks.

Flight simming with 30$ PC sims can help prepare students so they learn basics faster--but not so much with stall training and reactions to something going bad. Here Loco is right about needing to be inside the real cockpit. The sheer PANIC you feel during your first stall lessons...

Still, a one (1) aircraft sim properly done and properly priced (very high) might be able to prepare Newbies for stall and spin training and equipment failures. Imagine a 10,000$ PC flight sim with all FM made for Flyable Cessna~152 alone.

mmm, just now thinking if stalls and spins seem scary to us now, think about how it felt for those who stalled out while somebody else was trying to kill them in another airplane at the same time. Who will get you first, the ground or the other pilot? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


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JoachimvMayern
09-20-2004, 10:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by -HH-Quazi:
And on each trip, he pointed out emergency landing sites at different intervals. He assured me that if the engine just upped and quit, that at the altitude we were flying, he always had a place to land the plane, no matter where we were into our flight path.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Im interested to know, with regards to real flying, as opposed to sim flying how is it when the aircraft's engine cuts out and you have no power? Is it difficult to glide in? I do understand that depending on what power is cut off and where on the aircraft, banking, climbing and using the rudder is akin to trying to use power brakes on a car when the car is not running.

TX-EcoDragon
09-20-2004, 03:56 PM
There is really no change in a conventionally constructed aircraft with regard to control pressures with the engine running or not. If you are in a 100 knot glide with no engine power or or in 100 knot cruise the main difference will be that you are descending when the engine is off ;-)

S!
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El Turo
09-20-2004, 04:37 PM
Yup.


OT: Pre 9/11, I always fantasized that if I was going to lose my ticket for medical reasons, that I might as well try a stop and go on one of the moored "under servicing" aircraft carriers up at Bremerton in my little Cessna. Hey, if you're going to lose your ticket anyway.. Hehe..

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huggy87
09-20-2004, 05:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jungmann:
Biggest single difference, IMHO, between sim and RL flying? Peripheral vision. Our sim cockpits are like flying with a scuba mask on. Being able to see 140 or so degrees makes all the difference in maneuvering an aircraft on takeoff, landing, and doing aerobatics (a good hammerhead means you have to hold a good vertical line at the same time you hold a horizontal, e.g.)

Not that I don't love the game.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v365/Jungmann/IL-Sig3.jpg

Jungmann

"Oh, the monkeys have no tails in Zamboanga..."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmmmm... That is a pretty good analogy.

WTE_Galway
09-20-2004, 06:00 PM
'cept for a bit more rudder authority at very low speed eco-dragon .. but at 100 knots yeah no significant difference

Sturmtrooper
09-20-2004, 09:40 PM
I recently was the proud recipient of a Warbird Skyventures advanced training flight. I was the front passenger in an AT-6 Texan. The pilot taxied and took off ,until we were at about a 500 feet ,then let me take control and I flew up to 4000 ft. In the meantime on the way up I did left turns,right turns,slowly spiraling up to our designated altitude. When we got to 4000 ft. the pilot put the nose down a little to gather speed and then did a slow 360 roll . AWESOME ! Then she let me take the stick to try it. Well I wasn't about to say that I fly FB all the time and that I know what I'm doing http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif, so I just played along . http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif I performed the roll perfect . Then we did some more manoeuvers , Split-S , Barrel-Rolls, Wing-overs,Loops, Cuban-Eights.(no,I didn't fly all of these unassisted http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif)You know what ? It wasn't that much different than this sim. Besides the roar of the engine, the main difference was the G-forces ! Sometimes we were pulling 3.5 Gs ! It was a workout. It lasted about 30 minutes and I loved every minute of it ! I think next time I might try the Stearman . But that 600 hp Wasp radial was music to my ears. I recommend all of you to try and experience this . www.WarbirdSkyVentures.com (http://www.WarbirdSkyVentures.com)

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dlian
09-21-2004, 07:34 AM
Interesting question! I fly aerobatics & the occasional 1v1 every two weeks or so. My impression is that real life SA is easier to maintain because of wider visual, inertial and aural cues. With an occasional glance at the ASI & accelerometer, my visual focus is on the other aircraft.

I think an earlier post mentioned that physical cues like noise, G-loads & even radio chatter sometimes require greater concentration in real life. I'd agree with this. Little but very important things like checking G-load before wanging in a roll while in a high G turn must be remembered or you may fracture a wing spar; all add to the general thought process.

Also, my impression is that wind in FB seems to have much less effect during takeoff and landing than in real life. Of course, this depends on wind speed and direction in both real life and the sim, but in general, that's my impression.

In real life, I'm constantly thinking of the next thing to do, to stay ahead of a high performance aircraft. In FB, I find myself far more relaxed and just flying in the "present" if you know what I mean.

Another thing is in real life, I tend to expect an engine failure any time & so am looking for potential forced landing areas. As a matter of habit, almost every flight I make, involves a practice forced landing. We do this to remain proficient. I almost never do this in FB!

I could go on about similarities & differences. But I think what matters is that I enjoy both real & FB for what they are, as they are.

If there are any FB pilots living in Sydney, Australia who'd like to come up for a flight some time, please send a PM to me. I'd be happy to take you up when I have an empty seat!

p-39driver
09-21-2004, 08:03 AM
Oh yeah,without a doubt it's different!
Take a flight in a sailplane(glider,to laymen),
you'll never forget it!An experience second only to....

My Father and I were learning in an old Schwietzer 222-E back in the seventies.

Our instructer flew Gustavs for the Hungarian air force.

I wish I had the time and money enough to get back into it!

Bigtime glad you enjoyed the flight! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Breeze147
09-24-2004, 10:51 AM
Real life does not have a refly button.