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Maple_Tiger
03-22-2004, 02:32 PM
I'm very pleased that Oleg has taken the time to answer my question on the now exploding P-51.

Qoute from the man:

It may happens if you achived 15+G peak overlaoding for airframe in P-51.
For he sustaned overload stress real P-51 was 6-7G permitted.

Capt. 361stMapleTiger.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid78/pd6c878f0006c224805da6c9645408b41/fb291d3e.jpg

Proud member of the FBAA and Nutty Philosohpy Club.

Maple_Tiger
03-22-2004, 02:32 PM
I'm very pleased that Oleg has taken the time to answer my question on the now exploding P-51.

Qoute from the man:

It may happens if you achived 15+G peak overlaoding for airframe in P-51.
For he sustaned overload stress real P-51 was 6-7G permitted.

Capt. 361stMapleTiger.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid78/pd6c878f0006c224805da6c9645408b41/fb291d3e.jpg

Proud member of the FBAA and Nutty Philosohpy Club.

Gunner_361st
03-22-2004, 02:34 PM
Figures. You were just flying like a Maniac, as always, Maple! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif

Captain Gunner of the 361st vFG

http://home.comcast.net/~smconlon/wsb/media/245357/site1039.jpg

Maple_Tiger
03-22-2004, 02:50 PM
You may be right Derek, but 1C has forgotton to tell us about this new modeling.

Never in 1.20 or 1.22 have i ever exploded in the P-51 while pulling out of a dive. This is why people are complaining http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Capt. 361stMapleTiger.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid78/pd6c878f0006c224805da6c9645408b41/fb291d3e.jpg

Proud member of the FBAA and Nutty Philosohpy Club.

VW-IceFire
03-22-2004, 05:36 PM
Thats actually kind of cool. I'm continued to be impressed! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

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Aztek_Eagle
03-22-2004, 05:51 PM
he sure uses trim, now we can expect the trim whinners strike back

p1ngu666
03-22-2004, 05:59 PM
wonder about the go229?
wouldnt it be better to fall apart instead?

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg

easymo
03-22-2004, 07:28 PM
Same with the KI84. Took me awile to figure out what was happening.

They don't blow. But, important parts break off. Like the wings.

Maple_Tiger
03-22-2004, 07:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by easymo:
Same with the KI84. Took me awile to figure out what was happening.

They don't blow. But, important parts break off. Like the wings.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Where not talking about going into compresion easymo. Were talking about pulling up and exploding. Like what would happen if you through a match into a gas can kind of boom.

Capt. 361stMapleTiger.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid78/pd6c878f0006c224805da6c9645408b41/fb291d3e.jpg

Proud member of the FBAA and Nutty Philosohpy Club.

TX-EcoDragon
03-23-2004, 12:17 AM
While explosions may be an odd way to model overstress damage, I am glad to see that some degree of stress modeling is now being added into the sim. So many complain about certain aspects of the way the aircraft fly in comparison to one another, or how real world tactics don't seem to work in the sim as one might expect. . . if the aircraft are more limited to realistic flight envelopes, some of these issues will be nullified somewhat.

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JaBo_HH--Gotcha
03-23-2004, 12:32 AM
Simply cool ! anyone found out which other planes explode when overstressed ?

It may be a wrong graphical way to display the stress but for the Pilot it will be the same result.

END OF FLIGHT BOY ... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Cool !

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Rab03
03-23-2004, 01:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Maple_Tiger:
You may be right Derek, but 1C has forgotton to tell us about this new modeling.

Never in 1.20 or 1.22 have i ever exploded in the P-51 while pulling out of a dive. This is why people are complaining http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Capt. 361stMapleTiger.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Since quite long time passed from events I am about to depict, description of the same is vague. Anyway, it goes something like this:

In a mission in which I flew G-6 (with wingman) against 2 Yak-9s and 2 La-5s, I was hardly pressed in one moment at a 4500m. Sharply turned to a steep dive, reaching very high speed. When I pulled up from a dive, I saw there were no Lavochkins. Finished the fight, saved the track, and reviewed it later. Watching the track I saw two La-5s going after me in a dive, when, as they reached approx. 630 kmh they started to shake violently, and the seconds later simply exploded (not sure, but they didn't loose any parts prior to blewing up). Also, this was reported for P-40s when FB was released.

Really don't know weather you exceeded max G-force for a Pony. But if you did, the only thing that could be done by Oleg and team is modification of damage model, which would, instead of exploding the aircraft, break off a wing or fuselage.

AFJ_Locust
03-23-2004, 02:49 AM
The ac is not being stressed its not even Buffiting Im going 630kmh TAS & pull the stick back im not even blacked out or grayed out & BOOM like someone tossed TnT in the back seat

Oleg Please look into this.

I mean dang man american ac are already undermodled Dogs now you gona make them explode if they dive Im not pulling 15g's or even 10 g's its probly an 7 or 8 g dive recovery if that.

http://img20.photobucket.com/albums/v61/AFJ_Locust/Loco_mad_sig2_small.jpg

http://alloutwar.com/IL2FS/

FA_Whisky
03-23-2004, 02:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> It may happens if you achived 15+G peak overlaoding for airframe in P-51.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wouldn't that mean that you black out long before that?

Diving down and pulling the trigger is that 15+ g's? Many times it just happenes when you are not pulling out of a dive. Also, as far as i have seen the 109 and 190 series are not effected by this feature and are now impossible to dive after at high speed(800kmph). If you do it you have about 10% change that you will R.I.P. If this feature is here to stay, make it so for all planes. Also, parts falling of would be better(got the same result though).

VVS-Manuc
03-23-2004, 03:20 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>

I mean dang man american ac are already undermodled Dogs now you gona make them explode if they dive <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nice joke, man http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif

Maple_Tiger
03-23-2004, 04:24 AM
Thats a good point AFJ.

i mean when i do manage to explode, im not even blacking out. You would think at even 10G's you would be blacking out or passing out lol.

Capt. 361stMapleTiger.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid78/pd6c878f0006c224805da6c9645408b41/fb291d3e.jpg

Proud member of the FBAA and Nutty Philosohpy Club.

Red_Storm
03-23-2004, 07:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AFJ_Locust:
The ac is not being stressed its not even Buffiting Im going 630kmh TAS & pull the stick back im not even blacked out or grayed out & BOOM like someone tossed TnT in the back seat

Oleg Please look into this.

I mean dang man american ac are already undermodled Dogs now you gona make them explode if they dive Im not pulling 15g's or even 10 g's its probly an 7 or 8 g dive recovery if that.

http://img20.photobucket.com/albums/v61/AFJ_Locust/Loco_mad_sig2_small.jpg

http://alloutwar.com/IL2FS/&lt;HR&gt;&lt;/BLOCKQUOTE&gt; (http://alloutwar.com/IL2FS/<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>)

The American planes still outdo the German planes in almost everything. It's just that players who fly German planes have had to deal with an enormous lurning curve and know all the nice little tactics and tricks and all the American plane flyers came straight from Yak-3's and La-7's and only have experience with yanking the stick back as hard as they can.

The P-38 in-game is about the equal of a FW-190 performance wise, learn to deal with it/fly it effectively. The P-51 far surpasses the FW-190 and Bf-109, and so does the P-63.

quiet_man
03-23-2004, 08:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AFJ_Locust:
The ac is not being stressed its not even Buffiting Im going 630kmh TAS & pull the stick back im not even blacked out or grayed out & BOOM like someone tossed TnT in the back seat

Oleg Please look into this.

I mean dang man american ac are already undermodled Dogs now you gona make them explode if they dive Im not pulling 15g's or even 10 g's its probly an 7 or 8 g dive recovery if that.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

-&gt; peak &lt;-
somewhere I read that a car must be able to sustain peak loads &gt;20g or it would fall apart when going &gt;50kmh

it does not mean that car or driver can do &gt;20g turns http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Regards
quiet_man

AFJ_Locust
03-23-2004, 06:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Red_Storm:

The American planes still outdo the German planes in almost everything. It's just that players who fly German planes have had to deal with an enormous lurning curve and know all the nice little tactics and tricks and all the American plane flyers came straight from Yak-3's and La-7's and only have experience with yanking the stick back as hard as they can.

The P-38 in-game is about the equal of a FW-190 performance wise, learn to deal with it/fly it effectively. The P-51 far surpasses the FW-190 and Bf-109, and so does the P-63.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


YOUR FAKING HIGH

I fly german for 3 years you know nothing.

American ac do not outdo german ac in any shape or form & Ill destroy any p38 in my dora or a9 or a5 or any german ac Your sick man get help http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://img20.photobucket.com/albums/v61/AFJ_Locust/Loco_mad_sig2_small.jpg

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AFJ_Locust
03-23-2004, 06:15 PM
back on topic this is about a bug that aep has the p51 explodes like a firecracker on 4th of july @ normal speeds with normal g's its wrong not right

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http://alloutwar.com/IL2FS/

NegativeGee
03-23-2004, 06:41 PM
Okay... quick question as I find this fascinating.

I've been trying to get my Ponys to explode in these manuovers, but no luck.... I just keep blacking my pilot out http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/53.gif

So, to those of you who can get them to boom:

Which Mustangs?
What altitude?
What speed?
What type of turn?

Plus any other hints you have so I can reproduce this, cheers http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

"As weaponry, both were good, but in far different ways from each other. In a nutshell, I describe it this way: if the FW 190 was a sabre, the 109 was a florett, or foil, like that used in the precision art of fencing." - Gunther Rall

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Maple_Tiger
03-23-2004, 07:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NegativeGee:
Okay... quick question as I find this fascinating.

I've been trying to get my Ponys to explode in these manuovers, but no luck.... I just keep blacking my pilot out http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/53.gif

So, to those of you who can get them to boom:

Which Mustangs?
What altitude?
What speed?
What type of turn?

Plus any other hints you have so I can reproduce this, cheers http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

"As weaponry, both were good, but in far different ways from each other. In a nutshell, I describe it this way: if the FW 190 was a sabre, the 109 was a florett, or foil, like that used in the precision art of fencing." - Gunther Rall

http://www.invoman.com/images/tali_with_hands.jpg

Look Noobie, we already told you, we don't have the Patch!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


It dosen't take too much effort. Dive from about 7500m to about 3500m. When you reach about 740kmh IAS; this is before compression by the way, pull back on your stick. Then watch the plane go Boom.

This did not happen in 1.20 nor 1.22. Oleg never said anything about changing the FM of the P-51. I think its a bug.

Capt. 361stMapleTiger.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid78/pd6c878f0006c224805da6c9645408b41/fb291d3e.jpg

Proud member of the FBAA and Nutty Philosohpy Club.

Fennec_P
03-23-2004, 07:47 PM
Even if it is a deliberate feature, it is still fishy that most planes are not affected by it.

For exampe, the '40 Zero would be the poster boy for over-G destruction, but I can't get it to blow up regardless of how many G I pull. With full trim I can easily do 15-20G, and it stays in one piece. IRL it was well known to lose wings from single digit load factors at low speeds.

Same with the FW-190. With the light elevator control, you can attain 20-25G in a high speed pull up, but again, no boom. It may have strong wing design, but surely the maximum load factor is less than 25G?

Same with YP-80. I can't get it to blow up either at 15-20G.

Some might welcome the addition of a simplified max-G feature, but it would be nice if it was modelled for all planes, especially the ones that were notoriously weak IRL. Currently it is just an unfair disadvantage for players who fly planes that happen to have a modelled max load factor.

[This message was edited by Fennec_P on Tue March 23 2004 at 06:59 PM.]

Gunner_361st
03-23-2004, 08:06 PM
I agree, Fennec. Bump.

Captain Gunner of the 361st vFG

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Chuck_Older
03-23-2004, 08:23 PM
I have AEP installed


I cannot replicate this. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/52.gif I just pulled out of a dive of about 40 degrees, at over 850 KPH on the speedbar. I was in a P-51D-20. I started at 7500 meters.

My pilot blacked out a little. That's all.

I gingerly pulled out. The plane was buffeting heavily. I hesitate to say that y'all are yanking the stick, but my Mustang didn't come apart. My airspeed indicator was well over 550 mph the last I looked, but I started watching the speedbar, instead (I was in wide view, so the gauge was really tiny). Maybe my Detroit Miss is extra tough http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

*****************************
Wave bub-bub-bub-bye to the boss, it's your profit, it's his loss~ Clash

F16_Petter
03-24-2004, 12:15 AM
Try the latest model P51 in AEP the one with K14 gunsight.
(P51D/20 i think it is).

Start from 10k in qmb and just dive..

see what happens.

Never heard of a plane that just "exploded" when overspeeding, or even overstressed.
Normally the wings fall off and long before that, there should be violent vibrations.

I think this is just like the P40 thing when it just exploded. To me its a bug.

And I would be dissapointed in Oleg & CO. if they actually belived this can happen IRL.
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif

If im not misstaken the Me163 will loose parts if overstressed. just dive and pickup 800kmh+ and pull hard. I think the wings break off. So why this TNT problem on the P51D ?

http://img41.photobucket.com/albums/v127/F16_Petter/petter_sig.jpg

michapma
03-24-2004, 01:26 AM
I would be happy to host some tracks of demonstrations. You'll find my email in the site in my signature.

Fennec_P, how do you know what the G load is? Do you know of a way to get the game to tell you, or are you able to calculate it? Either way, I'm very interested in knowing how to.

C!

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RedDeth
03-24-2004, 01:48 AM
pull the p51 out of a dive at anything over 600kph and it has about a 1 in 10 chance of spontaneously exploding and in not talking about yanking the stick. im talking about softly pulling out of a dive maybe 30 or 40 degrees. how many Gs is that? not a lot id say. certainly not more than 5 hor 6 max.

oleg needs to look at it cuz its dead wrong and only happens to mustangs.

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CHDT
03-24-2004, 01:57 AM
"oleg needs to look at it cuz its dead wrong and only happens to mustangs."

No, it's "dead" true (btw I would prefer wing breaking than explosion), but yes, you're right, it should be modeled to all aircrafts, especially the weaker ones. Maybe in the next patches.

Cheers,

blabla0001
03-24-2004, 02:02 AM
CHDT, if your not graying or blacking out during the pull out how can it explode from G limit?

CHDT
03-24-2004, 02:18 AM
The process needs perhaps some adjustments, but yes the Mustang could experience structural breakings under high-G loads.

But I agree, these G limitations should be added to all aircrafts, especially on the turn and burners ones.

Cheers,

CHDT
03-24-2004, 02:20 AM
I've perhaps an explanation.

This G breaking can happen in a matter of 1-2 seconds at high speed, so perhaps there's not enough time for the blackout to come to the pilot in the game?

Cheers,

blabla0001
03-24-2004, 02:25 AM
Yeah, in a slow pull out you instantly reach 15 G's so fast you blow up before you black out.

Come on.......lol

blabla0001
03-24-2004, 02:29 AM
It needs some serious adjustments, and then it needs to be modelled on all planes, especially the B&Z ones.

CHDT
03-24-2004, 02:37 AM
"Yeah, in a slow pull out you instantly reach 15 G's so fast you blow up before you black out.

Come on.......lol"


Oh, I didn't experience the fact, I was just thinking of.

So it happens even in a slow pull? If yes, yes, it's strange.

"and then it needs to be modelled on all planes, especially the B&Z ones."

Not exactly. For instance to take aircrafts of the Korean war. The Panther which was built as a tank never expericence stuctural failures and had no limitations. On the contrary, the Banshee was limited in a dive at 8-9G.

Cheers,

Cheers,

blabla0001
03-24-2004, 02:50 AM
Korean war planes are not WWII war planes.

I was just trying to make a point that B&Z moves take just as much, if not more G's then making a turn at much lower speed.

Maple_Tiger
03-24-2004, 03:53 AM
I was just messing around a bit and it seems to happen when your below 4000m. I dived from about 7500m to about 5000m and pulled back on the stick and it didn't blow up, i tride this a few times.

Then i dived from about 6000m to about 3000m going about 740kmh IAS(before compression) pulled back on the stick and Boom. I tride it again from the same altitude but this time i gently pulled back on the joystick and nothing happned.

Capt. 361stMapleTiger.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid78/pd6c878f0006c224805da6c9645408b41/fb291d3e.jpg

Proud member of the FBAA and Nutty Philosohpy Club.

Willey
03-24-2004, 07:55 AM
They all break up, not only P-51s. Most planes just don't have enough elevator to do so much gees. Try the old trim on a slider, even a 109K-4 goes boom.

I'd rather like to have something like a scary scraping sound as a warning before my plane breaks apart. And actually, that exploding is silly. It should break up as if I just dove too fast. Ailerons, rudder, stab, wings off etc.

HarryVoyager
03-24-2004, 08:34 AM
Ok, I loaded up the game, and used the P-47's 'G' meter to see the game's 'G' loads for various highspeed pull outs at various speeds.

The only time I even reached 10 'G's was doing a 40 degree/second pullout at 840 km/h TAS. At 740 km/h TAS that same turn only got about 8 'g's.

Unless you are trying to do instantanious 'bat turns' you aren't pushing the 15 G limit on any aircraft.

On an interesting note, though, that 10 'G' turn at 840 km/h TAS cost me a wing. That's only 525 mph TAS, less IAS. I know they've been flown faster than that, and it twrent the wings that were coming off of those planes.

Harry Voyager

CHDT
03-24-2004, 08:50 AM
"They all break up, not only P-51s. Most planes just don't have enough elevator to do so much gees. Try the old trim on a slider, even a 109K-4 goes boom."

That's very good news and perfectly realistic. Thanks Oleg http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

But yes, I would too prefer structural failures rather than explosions!

Cheers,

CHDT
03-24-2004, 08:54 AM
"On an interesting note, though, that 10 'G' turn at 840 km/h TAS cost me a wing. That's only 525 mph TAS, less IAS."

That's also perfectly realistic.

A Mustang wing is supposed to break at around 10,7 g. I should also mention that the war limit in the USAAF for the Mustang was 7,1G for safety.

So once again, this "kaboum" new feature is a very good thing http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Cheers,

ZG77_Nagual
03-24-2004, 09:24 AM
I am also glad to see this modeled - I've seen it in mustangs and ki84s - which lose a wing. I haven't tested it but only had a mustand 'C' detonate rather abruptly as I went for one of those 'get vertical before you black out' pull ups.

As for locusts remarks about american planes. I've flown mostly the 190a and d series (a5 since IL2) ALLWAYS with cockpit on and with maybe allmost as much skill as locust http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif The mustang, properly flown, is certainly a match for any of them - I prefer the 190s because they are a bit more difficult, and I like the control harmony. I've also flown the p39 alot - it certainly is also very competitive against the 190s in all regimes. In fact both the mustang and the 39 have better e characteristics than the a series 190s. The dora is pretty greasy however and is at least as good an e fighter as the mustang. Exceeding the 39 in top end dive and high speed maneuverability (as do all the 190s)- not sure about e retention.
Currently I'm working on the P38 - first plane I've found that is more difficult than the 190.
Though I do like flying the 190a4 lately, even on '45 servers.

Chuck_Older
03-24-2004, 03:24 PM
I love being told to do this "at over 600 kph" in a "P-51D/20", when I just posted that I did it in a P-51D-20 at 850 kph and over 550 mph indicated and it didn't break up or explode. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif

I also read that guys don't experience buffeting while trying this out. Uh, I did, Lots of it.

I guess I'm the best Mustang pilot around, because I tried this several times and no boom

here's one thing to recall:

The P-51D's critical Mach is around .8, right?
550 mph is roughly 80% of mach, give or take, right?

Why would I be surprised when the plane comes apart at high G loading at critical mach? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

*****************************
Wave bub-bub-bub-bye to the boss, it's your profit, it's his loss~ Clash

Chuck_Older
03-24-2004, 07:39 PM
Just did some tests. Posted results in GD

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=23110283&m=490104103


I cannot make the P-51D-20NA explode in flight by diving and pulling up. I can make it come apart if I exceed approximately 550 mph indicated in a 40* dive. this is about 860 KPH on the speedbar. But it doesn't explode unless I make a crater. I dove to 850 mph in a 40* dive many times, and pulled up as roughly as I pleased, several times. Not once did the plane come apart or break. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

There is a bug here, if this occurs with other folks, and not me.

*****************************
Wave bub-bub-bub-bye to the boss, it's your profit, it's his loss~ Clash

PzKpfw
03-24-2004, 11:53 PM
Maximum permissible dive speed for a P-51D was *505mph IAS below 9000ft, & 300mph IAS (539mph TAS) @ 35000ft. Maximum allowed engine overspeed in a dive was 3300 RPM ( or 10% over normal maximum).

The Merlin engined P-51 was put thru extensive dive tests @ *Wright field in 1944 with 3 test pilots. The P-51s were equipped with a MACH meter to evaluate the effects of compressibility:, buffeting, vibration, contrl force changes etc. .

Tests were conducted from 35000ft, Initial dives, showed the onset of problems @ just under Mach.75, additional tests pushed the P-51 to Mach.77, .79, And finaly to Mach.83 (605mph TAS).

As mach increased compressibility effects became more violent, but the P-51 was still controlable, and able to pull out etc. @ Mach.83 the effects were so strong that tests were ended. The test P-51 @ Mach .83 pulled out but suffered extensive structural damage and was written off, after landing.

*See: Dean Francis H. America's Hundred-Thousand pp.343 - 344.

Regards, John Waters

---------
Notice: Spelling mistakes left in for people who need to correct others to make their life fulfilled.

------
"We've got the finest tanks in the world. We just love to see the German Royal Tiger come up on the field".

Lt.Gen. George S. Patton, Jr. Febuary 1945.

[This message was edited by PzKpfw on Thu March 25 2004 at 12:18 AM.]

Snoop_Baron
03-25-2004, 12:35 AM
Just tested this out it definetly looks like a bug as I was pulling no where near 15Gs. I got it to happen in the B & C models. Didn't happen in the D model. Not saying it doesn't happen just not in the two test runs I did on the D model.

The explosion occurs without using trim to improve pull out and with little or no blackout effect.

When I get some time I'll post some tracks. But it only took a few dives with each plane in the QMB to get it to happen.

s!

:FI:Snoop Baron
http://www.endlager.net/fis/pix/banners/fis_banner_01.jpg

CHDT
03-25-2004, 01:44 AM
No it happens.

At high speed, in a dive, when you come at lower altitudes, big stick move and full trim = wing break. Perfect http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Snoop_Baron
03-25-2004, 11:18 AM
I've flown the P51D a lot and this definetly looks like a bug. In the B & C model this was happening around 500-600kph and I was not pulling that hard on the stick. This did not happen on the D model. Oleg might have added this 15G explosion for stress modeling but these explosions look to be something else. They are occuring in conditions that should not explode the plane and I'm not doing anything sepcial with trim to get them to occur. Give it a try guys. If no one has sent tracks to Oleg I sure will.

s!

:FI:Snoop Baron
http://www.endlager.net/fis/pix/banners/fis_banner_01.jpg

NegativeGee
03-25-2004, 01:15 PM
I've been messing around with this, and I find the same as Chuck_Older.... I can get the usual broken airlerons, rudders and elevators from very high speed dives, but not the instaneous mid-air explosions that are being described.

Somethings up..... but its not affecting everyone.

"As weaponry, both were good, but in far different ways from each other. In a nutshell, I describe it this way: if the FW 190 was a sabre, the 109 was a florett, or foil, like that used in the precision art of fencing." - Gunther Rall

http://www.invoman.com/images/tali_with_hands.jpg

Look Noobie, we already told you, we don't have the Patch!

Chuck_Older
03-25-2004, 04:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PzKpfw:
Maximum permissible dive speed for a P-51D was *505mph IAS below 9000ft, & 300mph IAS (539mph TAS) @ 35000ft. Maximum allowed engine overspeed in a dive was 3300 RPM ( or 10% over normal maximum).

The Merlin engined P-51 was put thru extensive dive tests @ *Wright field in 1944 with 3 test pilots. The P-51s were equipped with a MACH meter to evaluate the effects of compressibility:, buffeting, vibration, contrl force changes etc. .

Tests were conducted from 35000ft, Initial dives, showed the onset of problems @ just under Mach.75, additional tests pushed the P-51 to Mach.77, .79, And finaly to Mach.83 (605mph TAS).

As mach increased compressibility effects became more violent, but the P-51 was still controlable, and able to pull out etc. @ Mach.83 the effects were so strong that tests were ended. The test P-51 @ Mach .83 pulled out but suffered extensive structural damage and was written off, after landing.

*See: Dean Francis H. _America's Hundred-Thousand_ pp.343 - 344.

Regards, John Waters

---------
Notice: Spelling mistakes left in for people who need to correct others to make their life fulfilled.

------
"We've got the finest tanks in the world. We just love to see the German Royal Tiger come up on the field".

Lt.Gen. George S. Patton, Jr. Febuary 1945.

[This message was edited by PzKpfw on Thu March 25 2004 at 12:18 AM.]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

excellent info!

*****************************
Wave bub-bub-bub-bye to the boss, it's your profit, it's his loss~ Clash

dahdah
03-25-2004, 04:15 PM
Are people using trim to pull out of the dives? This was a big no-no in the P-51.

StG77_Stuka
03-25-2004, 08:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fennec_P:
Even if it is a deliberate feature, it is still fishy that most planes are not affected by it.

For exampe, the '40 Zero would be the poster boy for over-G destruction, but I can't get it to blow up regardless of how many G I pull. With full trim I can easily do 15-20G, and it stays in one piece. IRL it was well known to lose wings from single digit load factors at low speeds.

Same with the FW-190. With the light elevator control, you can attain 20-25G in a high speed pull up, but again, no boom. It may have strong wing design, but surely the maximum load factor is less than 25G?

Same with YP-80. I can't get it to blow up either at 15-20G.

Some might welcome the addition of a simplified max-G feature, but it would be nice if it was modelled for all planes, especially the ones that were notoriously weak IRL. Currently it is just an unfair disadvantage for players who fly planes that happen to have a modelled max load factor.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well Said Fennec!

Snoop_Baron
03-25-2004, 09:00 PM
As I already said I didn't use trim and didn't even have to do a very hard pull up at all. At my earliest oppportunity I'll put up some tracks. Hopefully this Sunday.

s!

:FI:Snoop Baron
http://www.endlager.net/fis/pix/banners/fis_banner_01.jpg

Chuck_Older
03-26-2004, 10:33 AM
I posted in GD about this, too, but:

I duplicated my earlier tests (dive from 10K meters in a P-51D-20NA, 100% fuel, rad closed, all difficulty on except for speedbar, in QMB, Smolensk map) with a B and C model, last night.

The results were the same: The aircraft will break apart at 600mph or so, but I can do dive and pullup after dive and pullup up to 850kph (550mph indicated), in a B, C, or D, and the aircraft won't explode. It will break apart, but not explode.

There is a bug here somehow. I note that some guys aren't seeing buffeting in their dives. My Mustangs all buffet, and if you let it go too long, they buffet very badly. To my way of thinking, those that have no buffet and experience an explosion might have a bug.

I have AEP installed, and had no issues installing. This seems very much like a bug that will only show up on certain systems, to me.

*****************************
Wave bub-bub-bub-bye to the boss, it's your profit, it's his loss~ Clash

Maple_Tiger
03-26-2004, 02:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NegativeGee:
I've been messing around with this, and I find the same as Chuck_Older.... I can get the usual broken airlerons, rudders and elevators from very high speed dives, but not the instaneous mid-air explosions that are being described.

Somethings up..... but its not affecting everyone.

"As weaponry, both were good, but in far different ways from each other. In a nutshell, I describe it this way: if the FW 190 was a sabre, the 109 was a florett, or foil, like that used in the precision art of fencing." - Gunther Rall

http://www.invoman.com/images/tali_with_hands.jpg

Look Noobie, we already told you, we don't have the Patch!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



The thread is not about reaching compressionabilty and loseing a few parts.

Even i can reach compressionablity, lose an eloron, and then lose a wing and not explode. That is not the issue.

The issue is when your pulling out of a dive before compression, and when your not even blacking out.

Now 15g's is quite a bit of g's. There is no way i could have been pulling that many g's lol. I would have passed out.

Capt. 361stMapleTiger.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid79/p9158822c9eda67f1dd0b724a5f846229/fb18d0ec.jpg
Proud member of the FBAA and Nutty Philosohpy Club.

Gunner_361st
03-26-2004, 05:45 PM
Chuck Older and others, check my thread asking about structural failure in high G manuevers.

And try doing your dive starting at 5,000 meters, not 10,000 meters. The explosions only seem to happen in the denser air of low altitude.

Captain Gunner of the 361st vFG

http://home.comcast.net/~smconlon/wsb/media/245357/site1039.jpg

ZG77_Nagual
03-26-2004, 06:29 PM
Please note if you are flyng cem or not - could be overrev - also abrupt stick can pull very high g's in the mustang even at lowish speeds because of the very light controls it has in the simm.

Chuck_Older
03-26-2004, 07:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gunner_361st:
Chuck Older and others, check my thread asking about structural failure in high G manuevers.

And try doing your dive starting at 5,000 meters, not 10,000 meters. The explosions only seem to happen in the denser air of low altitude.

Captain Gunner of the 361st vFG

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


@ Gunner, and Nagual:


OK, I did. I posted my findings in GD. I will quote:

Chuck wrote:
~I just retried my previous experiments, using criteria from various sources to make the Mustang explode. It still didn't. Yes I have AEP and yes it installed correctly with zero problems.


P-51D-20NA. Full real except speedbar "on" (yes that means CEM, too http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif ). This was in QMB [edit-Smolensk]. Started at 5,000 meters. 100% prop pitch, 3100 rpm. 25% fuel. vertical dive. I also trimmed to keep it straight down while picking up speed.

test 1)
5000m- start, begin dive to vertical
1050m- buffeting moderately. 850 kph on speedbar, 550 mph on indicator. Max back pressure on stick. Quick blackout, relax pressure, exit blackout. No explosion
950m- level off. 890 kph on speedbar. Over 550 mph indicated. Buffet continues, no break-up, no explosion


test 2)

5000m- start, begin diving vertical
when 650 kph reached on speedbar, dropped one notch flaps to 'combat'. Continue dive. When 710 kph reached, max back pressure on stick. Quick blackout and recovery, bad buffet, sounds of something breaking, plane rolls slightly to port. Port aileron ripped off.

No explosion


Something is going on, but it is not happening to all players. next I will be asked if I tried it with a B or a C...not yet. I was asked to try it as I just reported in test 2 and I did and here are the results.

Something is up, but it's not happening to all players~
end of quote

PS-
When Oleg says "this is not a bug" sometimes he doesn't mean exactly what I would mean when I say that.

But in any case, I must be Edgar Schmued's dream test pilot, because I can't blow up a Mustang in mid-airhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

*****************************
Wave bub-bub-bub-bye to the boss, it's your profit, it's his loss~ Clash

Gunner_361st
03-26-2004, 07:20 PM
Must be, Chuck. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

Granted, I never even heard of this bug until Maple mentioned it, and thus started literally trying to do dangerous high-G pull-ups. With a heavy hand and not a terrible amount of sanity, I was able to detonate all variants of the P51 series, as well as the TA-152, HE-162, and GO-229.

With all of these, I'd say get to 850-900 km/h IAS at an altitude lower than 3,000 meters, then pull up as hard as possible, using positive elevator trim if necessary.

I'm curious what makes them explode, rather than just crumple/fall apart, and so on. The KI-84 and Zero did this, but the above planes did not.

Captain Gunner of the 361st vFG

http://home.comcast.net/~smconlon/wsb/media/245357/site1039.jpg

Chuck_Older
03-26-2004, 07:30 PM
Hmmm...next I have read it happens in winter maps?!?

I would love to get to the bottom of this.


I haven't tried using trim yet...I only trimmed for a vertical dive. Maybe that's the key? Although I can't imagine trimming as I pull up with flaps after that 550 mph dive, becasue I can't think of how I wouldn't be pitching up so badly I'd bleed speed un-necessarily and have to trim down again- bad for combat survivability, I think http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

*****************************
Wave bub-bub-bub-bye to the boss, it's your profit, it's his loss~ Clash

Maple_Tiger
03-27-2004, 06:05 AM
When i am doing a dive test i do not trim the P-51.

I just thought of somthing guy's. We don't all have the same joystick or joystick settings. Thus, some of us will be able to make the P-51, HE-162 explode without much effort.

At 700kmh IAS i have not been able to succeed(Mayby becaues im not using trim)?

At 760kmh IAS it happens, but at 800kmh IAS or a little more its very easy for me to explode. I have to be very gentle when pulling up.

Hey, what if the P-51 is modeled with rocket fuel?... kidding lol.

Capt. 361stMapleTiger.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid79/p9158822c9eda67f1dd0b724a5f846229/fb18d0ec.jpg
Proud member of the FBAA and Nutty Philosohpy Club.

Bull_dog_
03-28-2004, 01:54 PM
bump for the bug...Oleg is in china so lets make sure he sees this

Maple_Tiger
03-30-2004, 04:42 AM
I agree Bull_dog_

Bump up and away...

Capt. 361stMapleTiger.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid79/p9158822c9eda67f1dd0b724a5f846229/fb18d0ec.jpg
Proud member of the FBAA and Nutty Philosohpy Club.

NegativeGee
03-30-2004, 06:15 AM
If (like myself) you had been having trouble getting the P-51's to explode as described, check out the tracks which Snoop_Baron posted showing the circumstances under which it happens:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Snoop_Baron wrote: I'm sending this to Oleg's bug address right now. But I'm also posting it here incase anyone else want's to take a look or comment.

I've uploaded track files to my website demonstrating this bug here:

www.snoopbaron.com/P51ExplodeBug.zip (http://www.snoopbaron.com/P51ExplodeBug.zip)

Here are my notes from the read me file:

Track files demonstrating a bug that causes all P51 models to explode when pulled out of a dive with flaps on and 25% fuel when the plane starts to shake.

Each explode track first does the dive with out the flaps and the plane does not explode. I apply full back preasure on each dive. I'm not using any special trimp "cheats" just pull the stick all the way back. Then I do the same dive but with flaps and the P51 explodes.

When I did the same tests with 100% fuel the P51 would not blow up with or without flaps. This probably explains why some testers could not get the P51 to blow up as it only blew up when I took 25% fuel.

I think there might be other ways to get it to blow up but this was any easy way to repeate it each time.

As a counter example I took the FW190D9 1944 (what I call my German P51 ) and did the same tests with 25% fuel the plane did not blow up.

Thanks,
Snoop<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

From:

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=63110913&m=591101513

After watching these I found it quite easy to reproduce the effect.

"As weaponry, both were good, but in far different ways from each other. In a nutshell, I describe it this way: if the FW 190 was a sabre, the 109 was a florett, or foil, like that used in the precision art of fencing." - Gunther Rall

http://www.invoman.com/images/tali_with_hands.jpg

Look Noobie, we already told you, we don't have the Patch!

E_Temperament
03-30-2004, 06:35 PM
I just tried the Bf109k-4 in QMB @ 10000m and with elevator trim it explodes after pulling out of a dive. Without trim it didn't explode.

WUAF_GenSwat
03-30-2004, 08:52 PM
Rgr I did this in a online DF room I hosted was alone no AAA took a TA152 which I have figured can dive easily over 1000kph With proper dive angle,start speed, and prop pitch I went to 5k dove to about 3k was about 850 pull up slightly and exploded no prior damage. I can tell you this is not correct I feel this new moddle design for destruction or what not should be
1) lowered not as dramastic and or removed for the sim

2)P51 mustang did the same as well I have had this hapen at 675kph 750 and 800 as well

3)P47 and P40 as well

I am not stating I dont appreciate the change and or the AEP love new planes Hope to have every plane that was ever made and flew in WW2 someday but some time to many things to much of a drastic change from a patch to a patch or from One game to its add on is to much...

Sort of like to many cooks spoil the soup saying!!!
But Would really be nice to see what olegs gets his info from or the accual plane charts in a post to really see the truths of what planes have real spec and what planes are just algebraically formulated... Hey IMHO I would fly a p51 if it went 200kph or 1000kph at level flight, Why cause I love the Game and as well as several other planes too, weather the climb faster or slower ,fly slower or faster then designed!!! Just these dive and climb explosion really puzzle me as bizarre!!!

E_Temperament
03-31-2004, 12:50 AM
P51D-20NA doesn't explode unless I use excessive trim while levelling out, without trim it breaks apart. So IMO this exploding plane bug for want of a better word is related entirely to excessive up-trim use while levelling out of a dive at speeds in excess of 750km/hr-800km/hr. Same thing goes for the Bf109K-4.

E_Temperament
03-31-2004, 12:50 AM
P51D-20NA doesn't explode unless I use excessive trim while levelling out, without trim it breaks apart. So IMO this exploding plane bug for want of a better word is related entirely to excessive up-trim use while levelling out of a dive at speeds in excess of 750km/hr-800km/hr. Same thing goes for the Bf109K-4.

CHDT
03-31-2004, 01:08 AM
"P51D-20NA doesn't explode unless I use excessive trim while levelling out, without trim it breaks apart. So IMO this exploding plane bug for want of a better word is related entirely to excessive up-trim use while levelling out of a dive at speeds in excess of 750km/hr-800km/hr. Same thing goes for the Bf109K-4."

And that's perfectly realistic. Ok, annoying for the "trim trickers", but perfectly realistic http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

FA_Whisky
03-31-2004, 01:26 AM
Once again, use the online 2 side winter map and you will see that you do NOT have to use trim and you do NOT have to use flaps. Simple pull up at 750kmph and you will blow up. If you want it to happen faster also fire your guns.

CHDT
03-31-2004, 01:42 AM
"Once again, use the online 2 side winter map and you will see that you do NOT have to use trim and you do NOT have to use flaps. Simple pull up at 750kmph and you will blow up. If you want it to happen faster also fire your guns."


That's also realistic, with a pull-up. Without pull-up, bad things can happen on a Mustang from about 800-810 km/h.

I will publish soon a doc showing that all that is correct.

Cheers,

FA_Whisky
03-31-2004, 02:02 AM
if it is correct, so be it. We will have to live with it. But, than other planes should suffer from this also. I think the P51 should still be able to outdive a 109K4 (or the 109Z) so these should than brake up sooner.

BTW, 750kmph will do the trick without blacking out.

CHDT
03-31-2004, 02:21 AM
"than other planes should suffer from this also."


It looks to me that other planes suffer also from this, what correct is. The stronger is the P-47, what's fine too.

[This message was edited by CHDT on Wed March 31 2004 at 02:31 AM.]

[This message was edited by CHDT on Wed March 31 2004 at 02:32 AM.]

E_Temperament
03-31-2004, 04:47 AM
Aircraft that I have tested that explode instead of breaking apart= P47D-27,,,P51D-20NA,,,P51B-NA,,,BF109K-4
Aircraft that break apart include= Spitfire MK Vb,,,Spitfire L.F.Mk Vb,,,Yak-9U,,,P-63C-5,,,FW-190 D-9,,,I.A.R.81a,,,Hurricane MkIIc,,,La-7 3xB-20.

IMO if a plane is flown so fast in a dive that it breaks apart or explodes during level out, the outcome is not disimilar, ie pilot can't eject in either case so he goes to R.I.P. and the plane is well totalled.

Snoop_Baron
03-31-2004, 10:21 AM
Just so you guys don't miss it:

THIS HAPPENS WITHOUT USING TRIM IN ALL P51 MODELS.

Check out my track and I did the same thing in the D9 and it did not explode.

:FI:Snoop Baron
http://www.endlager.net/fis/pix/banners/fis_banner_01.jpg