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iharderages
02-08-2014, 04:25 PM
I want to start a petition to let the producer think about the new concept. Old sets should be still be possible to buy with gold. If the old card can only be get by wildcards this will kill the old format. So feel free to support the petition.

Rybaszcz
02-08-2014, 04:41 PM
Getting base set 1 cards only for wc is some kind of joke. No one from new players will buy it and veterans will have much worse to compelete open decks. No fun for everybody. It is begining of the DOCH end.

iharderages
02-08-2014, 04:50 PM
Getting base set 1 cards only for wc is some kind of joke. No one from new players will buy it and veterans will have much worse to compelete open decks. No fun for everybody. It is begining of the DOCH end.

Yes i think so too. But if the old set still would be avaibale for gold and you can choose your format i think it would be ok. Then the newbies game the base set 2 mode which is like a copy of heartstone and the other play their old mode.

Freyjan
02-08-2014, 05:33 PM
I hope for the sake of newer players they don't allow the acquisition of older cards solely through use of the Altar of Wishes. That would be a horrible move and I'd feel really bad for any newer players with a low pool of cards who still want to enjoy the open format.

Shukfir
02-08-2014, 05:37 PM
I'd wish of Emilio's Pack to include all possible cards from any set (even Basic Heroes, that it doesn't include right now).

okaysimon
02-08-2014, 05:56 PM
Approved, give back our favorate cards at least by buying packs

Fleischgel
02-08-2014, 07:19 PM
Making the old Packs still available is the only way I will continue playing this game.

VampFury
02-08-2014, 07:32 PM
Here is my feedback that addresses this and some other issues: http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/832836-Base-set-2-and-DoC-*ULTIMATE-FEEDBACK*?p=9529030#post9529030

I don't want to see older cards only accessible only by Altar also.

hansohans
02-08-2014, 07:33 PM
Making the old Packs still available is the only way I will continue playing this game.

Same here. I spent so much time and money in the ,,old'' sets. If they don't get the old set to buyable with gold i am out, too.

Eyrington
02-08-2014, 07:39 PM
Same here. I spent so much time and money in the ,,old'' sets. If they don't get the old set to buyable with gold i am out, too.

same, new player will never use so much WC to get old card and become competitive in open format, simply they will play only the normal. in this way, also old player are obligated to play normal format. conclusion, if all time spend on this game to get old card are useless, i have no reason to stay in the game

RuprechtVanDoom
02-08-2014, 08:00 PM
From what they said the only set that is going to be removed is Base Set 1. And most of the good cards from Base Set 1 are in Base Set 2 with Pao and DA being the biggest exceptions. Now, if they keep the Wild Card prices for these old cards the same as before, or even reduce their prices I don't think it will as huge as issue as people might think. You can get 4 Dark Assassins for the price of one of the Unique Towers.

hansohans
02-08-2014, 08:11 PM
From what they said the only set that is going to be removed is Base Set 1. And most of the good cards from Base Set 1 are in Base Set 2 with Pao and DA being the biggest exceptions. Now, if they keep the Wild Card prices for these old cards the same as before, or even reduce their prices I don't think it will as huge as issue as people might think. You can get 4 Dark Assassins for the price of one of the Unique Towers.

I understand it so that they will remove all old editions and there will be only available base set 2 which has cards from all old card sets. Because all the old cards won't be in the shop for gold in the future the old meta will be destroyed. No new player will burn their wildcards for the old cards. And that is the point why many player raging now.

Alandis13
02-08-2014, 08:25 PM
Please make Legacy Packs (Base Set 1 and first four Expansions) be available for gold. Cost: minimal. Gain: Massive for your older community and those new mature players wanting to join the Legacy format. It gives us an alternative to spend gold on, and keeps it alive. Having to spend Wild Cards to get any new legacy cards, just kills legacy, as realistically we are spending WC's on the new BS2 sets, as I have already reviewed and changed my must have cards based on the new BS2 lists. Having a living, more complex elitist sub-game, hidden behind the more simpler wider BS2 front is awesome. But it also must be accessible to new players and realistically able to be bought into, otherwise it won't grow and slowly disappear as older players do. It is also fair to the older players keep Legacy as a viable format, keeping your loyal base engaged.

Some alternative Ideas to help implement this:

Remove Wild Cards from Legacy Packs. - Ubi may be worried that we will get too many Wild Cards for gold in comparison to BS2 packs. If that is the case, I'd be fine with removing all Wildcards from Legacy Packs, but make them cost 12500 gold in line with reinforcement packs.

Hide the current Marketplace/Achievements for BS1 and first four expansion packs - Ubi may be worried Legacy is too complex for newbies. Have it so it can only be accessed at level 20-30, like unlocking Altar of Wishes. This could be through an achievement which activates a button, revealing a separate page with only the Legacy Marketplace and Achievements.

Keep rarities of Legacy Cards in line with BS2 Cards - Ubi may be worried it will be easier/cheaper to get cards usable in BS2 from Legacy packs. If you keep the same rarities and pricing, this shouldn't be a problem. However, if you aren't, then adjust the pricing accordingly. I'd rather have to pay 24000 gold for the Void Rising Packs for a higher chance for Unique Creatures but still have the rest of the cards available, than having to spend Wild Cards for ALL Void Rising.


But hey, I love the game and are already creating BS2 decks. I think BS2 solves a lot of 'problems' with the game, as I personally hated broken cards like Pao that appeared in most decks or the prison lock frustration, but I do still want to play with/versus them. It would just be nice to have what we know, still there, in a viable growing format.

Cheers

Alamand
02-08-2014, 08:48 PM
Having the old cards be available only through the altar might not be that bad if they reduced the prices of all of them to be the same cost as the current base set and have the cards in BS2 be around the cost of VR or HoTV, but at the same time I don't think it's really necessary to remove them from the shop just yet, and especially not all at once.

Maybe once BS2 comes out they could remove BS1 from the shop, when the first expansion comes out they could remove VR, and so on, or maybe even delay it by a step. And have whatever set about to be phased out of the shop next expansion have its WC reduced to current BS1 prices.

I agree they need to remove old sets from the shop eventually, but doing such a big change on top of the even bigger change that is BS2 is probably a mistake.

Strandly
02-08-2014, 08:58 PM
I'm 10 cards away from the 50 foil card achievement for BS1 and halfway done with the foil deck achievement for BS1. If they remove those achievements and/or make it so I can't get foils through the pit I'm gone, I already burned hundreds of cards in the pit trying to finish those achievements.

matewu
02-08-2014, 09:01 PM
Please make Legacy Packs (Base Set 1 and first four Expansions) be available for gold. Cost: minimal. Gain: Massive for your older community and those new mature players wanting to join the Legacy format. It gives us an alternative to spend gold on, and keeps it alive. Having to spend Wild Cards to get any new legacy cards, just kills legacy, as realistically we are spending WC's on the new BS2 sets, as I have already reviewed and changed my must have cards based on the new BS2 lists. Having a living, more complex elitist sub-game, hidden behind the more simpler wider BS2 front is awesome. But it also must be accessible to new players and realistically able to be bought into, otherwise it won't grow and slowly disappear as older players do. It is also fair to the older players keep Legacy as a viable format, keeping your loyal base engaged.

Some alternative Ideas to help implement this:

Remove Wild Cards from Legacy Packs. - Ubi may be worried that we will get too many Wild Cards for gold in comparison to BS2 packs. If that is the case, I'd be fine with removing all Wildcards from Legacy Packs, but make them cost 12500 gold in line with reinforcement packs.

Hide the current Marketplace/Achievements for BS1 and first four expansion packs - Ubi may be worried Legacy is too complex for newbies. Have it so it can only be accessed at level 20-30, like unlocking Altar of Wishes. This could be through an achievement which activates a button, revealing a separate page with only the Legacy Marketplace and Achievements.

Keep rarities of Legacy Cards in line with BS2 Cards - Ubi may be worried it will be easier/cheaper to get cards usable in BS2 from Legacy packs. If you keep the same rarities and pricing, this shouldn't be a problem. However, if you aren't, then adjust the pricing accordingly. I'd rather have to pay 24000 gold for the Void Rising Packs for a higher chance for Unique Creatures but still have the rest of the cards available, than having to spend Wild Cards for ALL Void Rising.


But hey, I love the game and are already creating BS2 decks. I think BS2 solves a lot of 'problems' with the game, as I personally hated broken cards like Pao that appeared in most decks or the prison lock frustration, but I do still want to play with/versus them. It would just be nice to have what we know, still there, in a viable growing format.

Cheers

Completely agreeing. DONT KILL LEGACY FORMAT AT START! MAKE IT ACCESIBLE. I would also higlight that competing in legacy format would be another objective to mid-level players, who will achieve everything with bs2 decks.

MarceloVVJ
02-08-2014, 11:39 PM
Yes! keep the old boosters and achivemets too! :cool:

CytherSlash
02-09-2014, 04:35 AM
We need to keep an interesting meta like we have now alive.
Mill, lock, otk, all that non brainless Creaturebashing. Would be sad, if new players have no chance of seeing how deep this game really is.

Honk160
02-09-2014, 01:44 PM
I am very confused concerning UBISOFTS communictaion. Concerning the packs they say:

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Will older cards still be available in packs? How will I acquire older cards?

Base Set One will be removed from the Shop. We want new players to use B2 since it will be the Standard format. Overall, we feel it will bring a more diversified meta. People who really want out of print cards (Base Set One) will be able to get them through the Altar of Wishes. Still, it’s not impossible that one day we bring Base Set One cards back in the Shop.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

I do not count the expansions as Base Set One (I may be wrong on this one). So I would define the above statement as if VR, HotV, FW, and FT packs will remain in the shop. That would also be in sync with the statement that the swiss prize will be FT packs after BS2 release (how could you have FT pack in swiss but not in shop?).

However the statement concerning the achivements is something completly different:

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
What will happen with Base Set One achievements?

Achievements regarding “out of print” cards will be removed. We will add new achievements! If there are still Base Set One achievements you want to complete, now is the time to do it.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Here they say achievements regarding “out of print” cards will be removed which would not only concern Base Set One achievements as I would define it but also the expansion achievements.

SO what exactly is BS1????? Is it cards currently in reinforcement packs or cards currently in reinforcement packs + all expansions ??

mootzyugo
02-09-2014, 02:42 PM
SO what exactly is BS1????? Is it cards currently in reinforcement packs or cards currently in reinforcement packs + all expansions ??

It is clearly a question that must be answered by the devs as soon as possible !!!!

bluekiitos
02-09-2014, 07:53 PM
Please make Legacy Packs (Base Set 1 and first four Expansions) be available for gold. Cost: minimal. Gain: Massive for your older community and those new mature players wanting to join the Legacy format. It gives us an alternative to spend gold on, and keeps it alive. Having to spend Wild Cards to get any new legacy cards, just kills legacy, as realistically we are spending WC's on the new BS2 sets, as I have already reviewed and changed my must have cards based on the new BS2 lists. Having a living, more complex elitist sub-game, hidden behind the more simpler wider BS2 front is awesome. But it also must be accessible to new players and realistically able to be bought into, otherwise it won't grow and slowly disappear as older players do. It is also fair to the older players keep Legacy as a viable format, keeping your loyal base engaged.


I understand that the current packs have to be removed from the shop once BS2 is released, but old cards shouldn't be available only through altar. These Legacy packs (and of course subsequent Legacy boxes) seem like a fair solution for both Ubi and the players, please take this into serious consideration.

X-Vargarv
02-09-2014, 08:41 PM
I think they should retire from shop BS1+Expansions... Like u were able to buy "black lotus" packs in shop!

About legacy packs maybe they should keep Premium for seals i'm up for it but i don't get why they should drop WC prices of those cards.

Regards,
Vargarv.

iharderages
02-09-2014, 09:41 PM
I think they should retire from shop BS1+Expansions... Like u were able to buy "black lotus" packs in shop!

About legacy packs maybe they should keep Premium for seals i'm up for it but i don't get why they should drop WC prices of those cards.

Regards,
Vargarv.

Can you explain why this would be good in your eyes to retire the old packs? Then nobody will play the old packs and open mode will be killed in the future. If they make the old packs for gold (like the idea of emilio's) you can choose the mode you like to play in the future and all player will be happy.

Korbac7
02-10-2014, 03:25 AM
Jason on the stream said that BOTH game formats will be promoted equally. This means that BS1 cards should be obtainable as easily as BS2 cards!!! DO NOT REMOVE THEM FROM THE SHOP!

Papa_Nurgle
02-10-2014, 03:28 AM
Listen to your people, Ubi. No one wants open packs altar exclusive. And if they really are, then they better be damn cheap.

minus.Zero
02-10-2014, 10:12 AM
It is my position that all released packs should remain on sale. If MMDOC is trying to follow Wizard of the Coast's success as a CCG, they should mind that Wizards never halted sale of previous expansions when the rotated out of their Type 2 (Standard) format which always remained as their current base set, and the previous their last completed 'block' and their current production 'block'. Though production is stopped, it was more a physical restriction as their presses were needed on the next expansion. It digital CCG, that limitation does not apply.

Secondly, I agree with the creation of a second base set and the new Standard format. I used to play MTG for years, so I am used to the concept of rotating out sets. However, if the goal is to entice new players into the game, it should be noted that they will be stuck in Standard as the power difference between the two base sets will serve as a difficulty wall that new players cannot overcome. How is it that older players will have access to every card released, but new players won't. When a new player tries Legacy/Open format for the first time, they will encounter cards and heroes that they will be little prepared for, and even worse, have NO way to remedy. After a few times, a 'Standard' player faces a Legacy player, they willl deem Legacy unfair as they cannot compete against the power cards there, and will either go back and stay in Standard or leave the game altogether.

Thirdly, economically, you should keep the first set accessible for purchase in the store for GP (or seals if you wish to keep the Box for sale). To generate the addition currencies to get their cards, they'll either have to play longer (as becomes more true with EVERY expansion released), or will have to play real money to attain said currencies. Keeping the first basic set should always be optional, let the market decide where it wants to drop its GP and Seals. As it's all ones and zeroes, it doesn't make a lick of difference for Ubisoft whether Base One packs, Base Two packs, or expansions are bought with the player's currencies. As long as some players are willing to drop real world money to get the currencies to buy packs, that is all that should matter.

Final Thought:
Is this rotation policy also going to work with the expansions? Will Ubisoft halt expansion sales in the same manner as the base set? In keeping the expansions, the player has the freedom to pick where they spend their GP/Seals on and can slowly build a Legacy deck.

Please keep all rotated out sets for sale in future.

rcorpCZ
02-10-2014, 10:42 AM
UBI would be stupid, if they made old cards available for gold. If I remember correctly, they said on stream that they might make them available in the shop during special promotions. You encourage many players now rush to get as many of the cards as possible (some of them might spend money) and after BS2 comes out, you make the old cards available for seals (like 225 for pack, 2000 for box) from time to time = more seals spent, some of them bougt => profit. I don't like the FUD they're creating but from business standpoint it just makes sense.

Pjovejas
02-10-2014, 11:28 AM
At first glance the idea looks terrible, but on the other hand... Compare it to MtG. Where legacy cards can't be obtained from boosters (simply because they are out of print) also and are only available through trade between players (in DoC case through altar).

Regalian6
02-10-2014, 12:14 PM
I think they should retire from shop BS1+Expansions... Like u were able to buy "black lotus" packs in shop!

About legacy packs maybe they should keep Premium for seals i'm up for it but i don't get why they should drop WC prices of those cards.

Regards,
Vargarv.

The black lotus I don't want anymore can be swapped for many many good cards right now. What are you going to do with DA and paos that you don't want?

Gelerth108
02-10-2014, 12:48 PM
Removing old cards from shop will kill open format in short time. Players with less cards will stop playing it.

gabusan
02-10-2014, 02:10 PM
As long as the price to get the out of print cards is sensible, I dont see any problem. Opening packs because you need one specific card is nuts, and it always has been.

What worries me is, how are we going to get wild cards after Base Set 2? Will there be a wild card in each base set 2 pack you buy?

Revalon
02-10-2014, 03:03 PM
Besides the fact that I want to be able to buy packs with cards I still need, why should it be even harder for new players to get into open format?
I can live with standard being mainly creature based, as this is what - from my experience here in the forum - many inexperienced (and even some experienced) players want. But there surely are some that want to get into the full game very soon. And if they have to purchase cards through Altar of Wishes, they are forced to copy decks, as I can't imagine that someone spends his hard earned wildcards on cards that he just wants to try out. They won't be able to find cards in packs and try them, they will have to buy cards for existing decks and maybe then try to do something different with them. So the entrance to the game itself is easier, as in half the game there is a smaller pool they have to get, but it's even harder to get into the other half of the game, the one we are currently playing. But they ain't even really halves of the game, there is this third part, the weekly format. What if occasionally you will be forced to play a non-BS2-card to play there (don't know if this might happen)? Post-BS2-Players will be forced to buy such cards with wildcards, just to use them in a deck for this short time, and then it's maybe useless to them.
The WC-cost couldn't reasonably be made that low that I think it would be ok to make them available only through wildcards.

So yes, BS1 should stay available.

Czarnyfish
02-11-2014, 08:26 AM
So Standard will be for beginners. Cuted set of cards with boring mechanic for months till next expansions will be out (and then maybe you will introduce base set 3 and we will start from beginning) and Open for veterans that won't be able get cards for gold (no way to play without frequent spending money ). I don't see place for me in such construcion of game. And probably much more ppl too. It won't be free game any more. Play trial (standard) for free and pay if you want try more complex strategies. Nice move moneygrabbers.

gabusan
02-11-2014, 11:06 AM
So Standard will be for beginners. Cuted set of cards with boring mechanic for months till next expansions will be out.

So you remove a few cards and suddenly mechanics are boring? Boring?! I will tell you what is boring. Boring is every single Stronghold deck packing 4 Tainted orc. Boring is seeing a game you had under control slip away because your opponent removed one creature, freed a lane and then killed you with yet another Pao Deathseeker. Boring is playing against yet another prision deck and being unable to do anything at all because your opponent is playing so skillfully you never get another turn (wouldnt it be more skillful if he had to take into consideration what you do?). Boring is knowing 100% sure that the moment you play a creature adjacent to another against 3-magic stat Kelthor, they will get fireballed to oblivion. Boring is seeing your creatures being tossed around like ragdolls against Ishuma rush, basically negating any sense in strategically placing your creatures, and making damn necessary the aforementioned fireballs because you cannot even deploy new creatures in front of your opponent lanes, a dual ambush of sayama stalker and dune prowler would insta-kill them. It is like a never ending circle. You hate the fireballs, yet you cannot blame guys using fireballs, because without them they are done for against other abuses. These are the "not boring mechanics" for you? Screw your opponent so hard it is damn frustrating to even play the game?

Current meta is boring. We have seen it all already. We have seen it so often, there is no mystery in anticipating the next match. The second you see the opponent hero and he plays a couple of cards, you can pretty much figure out what will his deck be about. So I am grateful for some variety. The variety wont last for long, because new carbon copied decks, dominant decks will pop up again. But for a blissful time, people will still be trying to figure out which ones are the dominant decks in the new format. I am looking forward to that short period of bliss. And the weekly format, with variable rules each week, will keep things fun and interesting.

I wont lie, if I find that the new format is more fun to play than the old one, you might be losing an opponent to fight against during "classic" tournaments. I will move on to the base set 2 tournaments, and I am no begginner, I just want to have some fun playing cards. You have fun dealing with the carbon copied decks.

Daefon
02-11-2014, 11:37 AM
I've been thinking about this. In essence, I am not against having the older cards available for only wild cards. I do fear that not being able to buy the cards with gold will cause the open format to die out, and that should not be the goal. Open format will provide more complex play which will appear to some players.

My suggestion would be adding an extra tab to the store where you can buy boosters for the sets that are available in open format only. This section could be unlocked with an achievement that guarantees a player is no longer a new player, for example, reaching level 20.

UShed
02-11-2014, 11:38 AM
Well... I will sum up all this in key sentences:

- BS2 is a very good thing and especially for beginners and players who want to discover new ways to play.
- Removing (legacy) BS1 packs from shop is the worst thing Ubi could do for a big list of relevant reasons posted in this forum and other foreign forums.
- If Ubi persists in this way without any counterpart (b.e. changing infernal pit ratio to obtain more gold or wildcards, or letting BS1 packs in shop), they will loose a large part of players, and especialy casual players like me (who are playing 2-3 games per day and injecting about 5-10 euros/dollars per month).
- Two types of tournament is a good thing only if Ubi gives its players the possibility to play both with a minimum of efficiency.

You're not Blizzard. There's no need to put yourself down this way.
You're not Wizards of the Coast. You have the chance to work on an e-game and not to be hindered by paper edition issues.

Try to be yourself: surprise us with relevant and rational decisions.

See you in game... or maybe not.

Aza404
02-11-2014, 11:42 AM
FYI, from SimonV:

"- Open and Standard format

The format you're playing now (open) will be available as much as it is now. If you want to play with cards that are not in BS2, you will be able to do so, with no problems.

We mentionned that we're going to remove packs from the shop. The first base set is the only set that will be removed once BS2 arrives. Void Rising will be the next set to rotate out, but the other expansions will still be available in the shop.

Those that are worried that a new player will have a hard time collecting old cards, well, the idea is to suggest them to play Standard and collect standard first, which will be much easier for a new player. Let's face it, in a year, we're going to have upwards of a thousand cards in Open, that's a daunting task for a newcomer."

Original post: http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/832417-Base-Set-Two-Card-List-Feedback-Thread-Event?p=9531472&viewfull=1#post9531472

Best,
Aza

Czarnyfish
02-11-2014, 11:43 AM
So you remove a few cards and suddenly mechanics are boring? Boring?! I will tell you what is boring. Boring is every single Stronghold deck packing 4 Tainted orc. Boring is seeing a game you had under control slip away because your opponent removed one creature, freed a lane and then killed you with yet another Pao Deathseeker. Boring is playing against yet another prision deck and being unable to do anything at all because your opponent is playing so skillfully you never get another turn (wouldnt it be more skillful if he had to take into consideration what you do?). Boring is knowing 100% sure that the moment you play a creature adjacent to another against 3-magic stat Kelthor, they will get fireballed to oblivion. Boring is seeing your creatures being tossed around like ragdolls against Ishuma rush, basically negating any sense in strategically placing your creatures, and making damn necessary the aforementioned fireballs because you cannot even deploy new creatures in front of your opponent lanes, a dual ambush of sayama stalker and dune prowler would insta-kill them. It is like a never ending circle. You hate the fireballs, yet you cannot blame guys using fireballs, because without them they are done for against other abuses. These are the "not boring mechanics" for you? Screw your opponent so hard it is damn frustrating to even play the game?

Current meta is boring. We have seen it all already. We have seen it so often, there is no mystery in anticipating the next match. The second you see the opponent hero and he plays a couple of cards, you can pretty much figure out what will his deck be about. So I am grateful for some variety. The variety wont last for long, because new carbon copied decks, dominant decks will pop up again. But for a blissful time, people will still be trying to figure out which ones are the dominant decks in the new format. I am looking forward to that short period of bliss. And the weekly format, with variable rules each week, will keep things fun and interesting.

I wont lie, if I find that the new format is more fun to play than the old one, you might be losing an opponent to fight against during "classic" tournaments. I will move on to the base set 2 tournaments, and I am no begginner, I just want to have some fun playing cards. You have fun dealing with the carbon copied decks.

If you don't like current state it is ok. There will be next expansions and meta will change also in open. However with lower poll of card standard mode will be much more boring in a few weeks. You will have mosty creatures spam decks. No other options.

The point is that players want to have equal chance to develop their decks in both modes (OPEN and STANDARD). I don't want to play creature spamm decks in standard and I will have no options to play with little cost in open mode. WC cost a lot.

Enchanteur33
02-11-2014, 01:16 PM
It's not BS1 that should be fired from shop, it's the incompetent who decide it.
A so stupid idea is near unbelievable.
This game is great as much as his manager is idiot.
And it look as if he want to do all he can in order to destroy it, and discourage players to get involved into.

Sorry to be so agressive. I can't stand it.

reno_forfun
02-11-2014, 02:28 PM
I have been playing since Christmas and have regretted to discover the game so late as I find it very good.

BS2 seems a good thing to have a good start (i would have been happy to start with a new expansion) and compete with older players, but i don't see the point to remove BS1 card. As an intermediate (beetween older tops, and future new ones) i will have to throw all my BS1? Because without the cards easily accessible,the cost to play in Legacy format and become competitive will be too expansive. It means that one day over two i will never be able to compete. Ever.

Even for the economic aspect I don't understand the point. Less expansions, less income. Currently i will try my best at each expansion to complete it, BS2 first.
But why preventing me once done to buy older cards to become BS1 competitive as well ? Split the Shop beetween Legacy and BS2, you may even increase the cost of BS1 to
the one of other expansions (around 18K, while I guess BS2 will be 12K).

For now I will spend every gold I get till end of march in BS1. I don't see the point to play if not to be a to player in each version someday. If it clearly becomes too hard, it may lead me to give up the game. We shall see.

iharderages
02-11-2014, 02:54 PM
FYI, from SimonV:

"- Open and Standard format

The format you're playing now (open) will be available as much as it is now. If you want to play with cards that are not in BS2, you will be able to do so, with no problems.

We mentionned that we're going to remove packs from the shop. The first base set is the only set that will be removed once BS2 arrives. Void Rising will be the next set to rotate out, but the other expansions will still be available in the shop.

Those that are worried that a new player will have a hard time collecting old cards, well, the idea is to suggest them to play Standard and collect standard first, which will be much easier for a new player. Let's face it, in a year, we're going to have upwards of a thousand cards in Open, that's a daunting task for a newcomer."

Original post: http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/832417-Base-Set-Two-Card-List-Feedback-Thread-Event?p=9531472&viewfull=1#post9531472

Best,
Aza
That is a very, very nice task to get so much cards with wildcards.
Can you please explain how new player should get so much wildcards?
Even if they buy a huge amount of wildcards for real money they can't get even close to finish an old collection.
And the open format will die ...

journeyman1414
02-11-2014, 03:12 PM
That is a very, very nice task to get so much cards with wildcards.
Can you please explain how new player should get so much wildcards?
Even if they buy a huge amount of wildcards for real money they can't get even close to finish an old collection.
And the open format will die ...

Agree with this.. getting out of print cards is even more daunting with wildcards alone.

I support keeping the old packs in the shop. If you don't mind reading my thoughts about this breakthrough/fiasco click on the link below.

http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/832417-Base-Set-Two-Card-List-Feedback-Thread-Event?p=9532955&viewfull=1#post9532955

Enchanteur33
02-11-2014, 04:13 PM
We mentionned that we're going to remove packs from the shop

They only forget to say by this way :
We mentionned that we're also going to remove players from the game

UShed
02-11-2014, 04:39 PM
They only forget to say by this way :
We mentionned that we're also going to remove players from the game

+1 :mad:

iharderages
02-11-2014, 04:40 PM
They only forget to say by this way :
We mentionned that we're also going to remove players from the game

Hehehe good one^^

Scarfnape
02-11-2014, 05:59 PM
FYI, from SimonV:

"- Open and Standard format

The format you're playing now (open) will be available as much as it is now. If you want to play with cards that are not in BS2, you will be able to do so, with no problems.

We mentionned that we're going to remove packs from the shop. The first base set is the only set that will be removed once BS2 arrives. Void Rising will be the next set to rotate out, but the other expansions will still be available in the shop.

Those that are worried that a new player will have a hard time collecting old cards, well, the idea is to suggest them to play Standard and collect standard first, which will be much easier for a new player. Let's face it, in a year, we're going to have upwards of a thousand cards in Open, that's a daunting task for a newcomer."

Original post: http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/832417-Base-Set-Two-Card-List-Feedback-Thread-Event?p=9531472&viewfull=1#post9531472

Best,
Aza


With all due respect Aza, this is not a very good idea. As noted earlier, obtaining wildcards is difficult, even with real money. A smarter idea is to make good use of filters to allow players to filter out cards that they don't need to see. If you go to the Alter of Wishes today and try to find a specific creature card, it's very difficult because you cannot even filter out undesired factions. That is a pain for veterans and downright overwhelming for newbies. Making good use of filters in the shop to separate base set one and two cards and making it very clear to the new player that it is recommended for them to grab base set 2 cards first is a much better route to take. As being suggested among players here, you may even consider having a level requirement for buying BS1 packs.

On a side note, IIRC, many starter decks are going to become invalid with the removal of celebrations. You can always make a new starter deck obviously, but what about the relatively new (level 2-5 players for example) players who have not had a chance to really grow their decks may find themselves in an awkward position where they do not have a BS2 valid deck and have a fairly inferior BS1 deck and are stuck in this rather crummy nonspace area. What will happen to them? Will you hand BS2 decks to current players as well as new players? That's a lot of free cards but it may not be a bad idea.

Edit: Or just read journeyman1414's link, I agree with everything there and he says it better then I do.

Rodolphinobis
02-11-2014, 08:46 PM
They only forget to say by this way :
We mentionned that we're also going to remove players from the gameYep. :mad:

Gadjemil
02-11-2014, 08:51 PM
They only forget to say by this way :
We mentionned that we're also going to remove players from the game

I definitely agree. Listen to your player base, Ubi. If you intend on keeping that stupid decision, you can kiss our asses goodbye.

naccrO
02-11-2014, 10:01 PM
Absolutely.

batfly
02-12-2014, 02:20 AM
I hope it's a joke for the 1st April.....

Oh, and another thing was not mentioned here:
THE PRICE OF THE SB1 CARDS - IN WILDCARDS - WILL BE REDUCE? THE SAME? OR, WORSE: INCREASE????

I imagine already new players who must buy one Pao for 15 Wildcards instead of 5.....

minus.Zero
02-12-2014, 04:03 AM
FYI, from SimonV:

"- Open and Standard format

The format you're playing now (open) will be available as much as it is now. If you want to play with cards that are not in BS2, you will be able to do so, with no problems.

We mentionned that we're going to remove packs from the shop. The first base set is the only set that will be removed once BS2 arrives. Void Rising will be the next set to rotate out, but the other expansions will still be available in the shop.

Those that are worried that a new player will have a hard time collecting old cards, well, the idea is to suggest them to play Standard and collect standard first, which will be much easier for a new player. Let's face it, in a year, we're going to have upwards of a thousand cards in Open, that's a daunting task for a newcomer."

Original post: http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/832417-Base-Set-Two-Card-List-Feedback-Thread-Event?p=9531472&viewfull=1#post9531472

Best,
Aza

I'm in full agreement with creating the new format. But in removing the rotated out sets, you will only imprison the new players in standard. If you want to grow the game, Standard must serve as a gateway into Legacy. Eventually, all cards now will be in legacy and no longer in standard.

Your argument that new player need to be insulated from the higher power cards in Legacy does have some merit, but there are better ways to enforce that. Have a qualifying ELO (~750) or number of wins (100) or cards (1000) to show that the player is familiar with the game, and has built some library to unlock access to Legacy.
But even in that fact, when they first play Legacy, they will encounter all those high power cards and have no proper counter to them. They need access to those rotated-out cards or they will just not play Legacy.

Your argument of so many cards is too much for a beginner is the very reason you want to create standard format. The smaller card pool should be like the shallow end of the pool with the end goal being to reach the deep end. Skiers won't stay on the bunny hills forever.

If you keep the rotated-out packs available, all you have to do is add a visual and text notice in the description stating that some or none of the cards may be playable in Standard. Quick, easy, and getting players to keep buying pack via play or pay is your goal.

Sometimes the cure can be worse than the disease.

superktro
02-12-2014, 03:38 PM
As open play is remaining, why the hell are the ubi guys are removing cards from shop which are valuable for the players. If this move takes place i will surely quit doc and move to other tcgs where the developers atleast give valid reasons.

MissiNick
02-12-2014, 04:06 PM
Don't worry guys, thanks to another smart deal, you can now spend real money and get for free a reinforcement pack that will be removed after BS2 and with a 50% chance of getting cards you will not be able to use in the future!!!

What are you waiting for?

Aza404
02-13-2014, 10:35 AM
@All the questions about making it harder for new players to get the WildCards.

The point of this expansion is to reduce the scope of cards needed for new players to be competitive (as well as shake up the meta, add formats etc.). So saying that this is bad because it will increase the need for WildCards is only true for a player who wants to collect ALL the cards.
Actually, this strongly reduces the need for new players to acquire a big number of cards with wildcards and enables him to get the cards he needs to be competitive in the more restricted BS2 much faster than before.

So pointing out that this change is bad because it increases the need for WC for new players is actually quite wrong.
(once again, unless you absolutely need to collect all the cards...)

Czarnyfish
02-13-2014, 12:21 PM
@All the questions about making it harder for new players to get the WildCards.

The point of this expansion is to reduce the scope of cards needed for new players to be competitive (as well as shake up the meta, add formats etc.). So saying that this is bad because it will increase the need for WildCards is only true for a player who wants to collect ALL the cards.
Actually, this strongly reduces the need for new players to acquire a big number of cards with wildcards and enables him to get the cards he needs to be competitive in the more restricted BS2 much faster than before.

So pointing out that this change is bad because it increases the need for WC for new players is actually quite wrong.
(once again, unless you absolutely need to collect all the cards...)

Hi man I don't like when someone treats me like a moron. You can simply remove Open format beacuse we won't be milky cows and pay for every single cards by in wc. Because of such tendentious explenations as above me and my friends are close to quit DoCH. Yeah no body will miss us blalalal but there is much more of us (displeased) so if you wanna keep your players so be aware.

And yes we veterans WANT to use all available cards in open format and have normal way (gold) to get them. If not then BB.

UShed
02-13-2014, 01:40 PM
@All the questions about making it harder for new players to get the WildCards.

The point of this expansion is to reduce the scope of cards needed for new players to be competitive (as well as shake up the meta, add formats etc.). So saying that this is bad because it will increase the need for WildCards is only true for a player who wants to collect ALL the cards.
Actually, this strongly reduces the need for new players to acquire a big number of cards with wildcards and enables him to get the cards he needs to be competitive in the more restricted BS2 much faster than before.

So pointing out that this change is bad because it increases the need for WC for new players is actually quite wrong.
(once again, unless you absolutely need to collect all the cards...)

Thanks for your comment Aza but I think we all find it absolutely useless...

However, if you can explain us the position of Ubi relative to all our worries and concerns, that would be great!

Revalon
02-13-2014, 01:54 PM
@All the questions about making it harder for new players to get the WildCards.

The point of this expansion is to reduce the scope of cards needed for new players to be competitive (as well as shake up the meta, add formats etc.). So saying that this is bad because it will increase the need for WildCards is only true for a player who wants to collect ALL the cards.
Actually, this strongly reduces the need for new players to acquire a big number of cards with wildcards and enables him to get the cards he needs to be competitive in the more restricted BS2 much faster than before.

So pointing out that this change is bad because it increases the need for WC for new players is actually quite wrong.
(once again, unless you absolutely need to collect all the cards...)


Yes, being competitive will be easier for players who join after BS2, because there is a smaller pool they have to collect to build a good deck in Standard. I think this is great.

Now come the BUTs:
1) What if a post BS2 player wants to get into the Open format? How is he supposed to get the must haves from BS1? They can't possibly be as cheap in wild cards that he can seriously consider getting them in the Altar within a reasonable time. So not only will less new players get into Open because they prefer Standard, but simply because it's impossible for them to collect the needed cards without loads of time/money being invested - even more than now, and there are already people complaining how slowly the collection would grow.
2) What about players who started shortly before BS2 (let's say, now)? They probably won't get the BS1 cards needed for a competing deck in Open, and they might not even be able to build a mediocre deck that's legal in Standard. So they will have to grind Open with a mediocre deck to even be able to play Standard.
3) What about us older players who still are far away from full play set from BS1? It's already hard to get full set now (yes, I still sometimes buy Reinforcement Packs in hope to get my 3rd and 4th Ravager for example). Plus, I just like getting a card from a pack more than getting it from Altar, I enjoy it much more, but that's maybe just me.


The first two points are more important than the third, as I see it from my point and it's more that I want the BS1 cards I'm still missing than that I really need them. So the third really is more about this collecting all the cards, not about collecting the cards you need. But in the first two cases, the players really need those cards.
So please, please think about this, listen to you community, as most of the posts I read about this say that BS1 should stay available. Make it cost as much as the expansions if you want, but just keep it in the shop.

MissiNick
02-13-2014, 02:04 PM
@All the questions about making it harder for new players to get the WildCards.

The point of this expansion is to reduce the scope of cards needed for new players to be competitive (as well as shake up the meta, add formats etc.). So saying that this is bad because it will increase the need for WildCards is only true for a player who wants to collect ALL the cards.
Actually, this strongly reduces the need for new players to acquire a big number of cards with wildcards and enables him to get the cards he needs to be competitive in the more restricted BS2 much faster than before.

So pointing out that this change is bad because it increases the need for WC for new players is actually quite wrong.
(once again, unless you absolutely need to collect all the cards...)

This post might have a point if you can explain well why you want to remove BS1 and how this should help new and old players.

Until then, you're removing BS1 because you simply want more money to be spent by players, without giving them a good reason to spend.

S9TF1
02-13-2014, 02:09 PM
@Aza404: You are evading our question. We already know that BS2 is aimed at newer players, and that this set will be good for them. But once they have mastered the Standard format, which should happen relatively fast according to you, it is not unreasonable to think that they will want to try Open format too. And here comes for them a very predictable stonewall: how are they supposed to experiment with cards that they know nothing about, if they can only get them with Wild Cards?

Aza404
02-13-2014, 02:46 PM
Well don't forget that this BS2 will pave the way to a bunch of new expansions and card mechanics. So to answer the question "what does Ubi think of our questions and complaints" it's quite simple: we're noting it all down and waiting for the BS2 to come out so we can seriously test it and see if your worries were justified or not. Right at this moment we don't have an answer because we haven't been able to test this BS2 on the majority of players.

Now, as for players wanting to join the Open Format, the next expansions may bring cards that are much stronger than the ones we have in BS1 (or not). So new players with BS2 & future-expansion cards may already be more competitive in open formats than people with just BS1 cards.

I'm not trying to refute your arguments, simply trying to show you that there are other outcomes here than simply closing new players off from competitive "open format" gameplay.


And as we're talking about competitive gameplay, I personally think that BS2 "closed" format will be much more competitive as we've singled out all the cards that provided overly-strong combinations in order to increase the strategic possibilities. Again, the future expansions will bring A LOT to BS2 competition... just be patient.

MissiNick
02-13-2014, 03:05 PM
Well don't forget that this BS2 will pave the way to a bunch of new expansions and card mechanics. So to answer the question "what does Ubi think of our questions and complaints" it's quite simple: we're noting it all down and waiting for the BS2 to come out so we can seriously test it and see if your worries were justified or not. Right at this moment we don't have an answer because we haven't been able to test this BS2 on the majority of players.

Now, as for players wanting to join the Open Format, the next expansions may bring cards that are much stronger than the ones we have in BS1 (or not). So new players with BS2 & future-expansion cards may already be more competitive in open formats than people with just BS1 cards.

I'm not trying to refute your arguments, simply trying to show you that there are other outcomes here than simply closing new players off from competitive "open format" gameplay.


And as we're talking about competitive gameplay, I personally think that BS2 "closed" format will be much more competitive as we've singled out all the cards that provided overly-strong combinations in order to increase the strategic possibilities. Again, the future expansions will bring A LOT to BS2 competition... just be patient.

I do agree with what you see, but you didn't explain why removing the BS1 yet, if not for money.

Even if the other expansions will introduce (maybe, like you said) more powerful cards, I still see no reason to remove BS1. People wants to choose what to buy, and if you remove something, especially without a valid reason, players will leave.

Aza404
02-13-2014, 03:24 PM
Why remove BS1?
Several reasons:

Make it "rare": this actually makes older players feel like they have something really special that other players do not have. It's a sort of symbol that they've been active for quite a long time. It also makes it interesting for new players to collect, a sort of "premium" card status.
Clean out the card list for new players: right now, new players have to understand the gameplay style of just under 700 cards... that's just way too much! Setting the BS1 aside (for the moment at least) will make it significantly easier for new players to come to grips with the card pool.
Monetization test: obviously this is a tricky one. Some people may say that this forces players to buy and I'm not going to contradict them. However, if we do our jobs right, they will be competitive with cards from BS2 without acquiring cards from the BS1. Obviously there will be a monetization test here as it's a free game and Ubisoft has to make money somewhere if it's to keep the game alive.

I can't go into detail about the monetization aspects, but before you say anything about Ubi being greedy, let me say this: as far as I'm concerned, BS1 & 2 separation is a good thing for players as it simplifies everything out for them ; however I think having both sets available at once would actually generate more money for Ubi as players would have more incentive to get all the cards. So I would be willing to say that, in this scenario, it's clearly not a question of money. Please note that this is not an official Ubi position on this, simply my personal assumptions and feelings.

Once again, these are big changes to the game as we know it, so please be patient before making up your minds about whether this is a beneficial or a detrimental move in the long run.

Best,
Aza

Kinetic_42
02-13-2014, 04:10 PM
Why remove BS1?
Several reasons:

Make it "rare": this actually makes older players feel like they have something really special that other players do not have. It's a sort of symbol that they've been active for quite a long time. It also makes it interesting for new players to collect, a sort of "premium" card status.
Clean out the card list for new players: right now, new players have to understand the gameplay style of just under 700 cards... that's just way too much! Setting the BS1 aside (for the moment at least) will make it significantly easier for new players to come to grips with the card pool.
Monetization test: obviously this is a tricky one. Some people may say that this forces players to buy and I'm not going to contradict them. However, if we do our jobs right, they will be competitive with cards from BS2 without acquiring cards from the BS1. Obviously there will be a monetization test here as it's a free game and Ubisoft has to make money somewhere if it's to keep the game alive.

I can't go into detail about the monetization aspects, but before you say anything about Ubi being greedy, let me say this: as far as I'm concerned, BS1 & 2 separation is a good thing for players as it simplifies everything out for them ; however I think having both sets available at once would actually generate more money for Ubi as players would have more incentive to get all the cards. So I would be willing to say that, in this scenario, it's clearly not a question of money. Please note that this is not an official Ubi position on this, simply my personal assumptions and feelings.

Once again, these are big changes to the game as we know it, so please be patient before making up your minds about whether this is a beneficial or a detrimental move in the long run.

Best,
Aza

Whether you agree with the decision or not, I feel like the CMs and Ubisoft have seriously stepped up their game on the communication front in the last month or two. This is why I'm really excited about the future.

Personally I like many of the changes, but I also understand things can and will go wrong. Hopefully with communication that is on this level, and perhaps even better, we can work through the actual issues that develop. At this point, I think we're doing a bit too much worrying about potential issues that may or may not actually be as bad as some people think. I trust, if things do end up being bad that hopefully Ubi will be willing to admit their mistake and change course. We will have to wait and see if that is the case though.

Either way, I can't help but be cautiously optimistic.

Mourgan447
02-13-2014, 04:44 PM
I think it should still be offered for gold, but more gold. like Emilio packs, make a pack that is for 25k gold for Open Format Cards.

Revalon
02-13-2014, 07:05 PM
Whether you agree with the decision or not, I feel like the CMs and Ubisoft have seriously stepped up their game on the communication front in the last month or two. This is why I'm really excited about the future.

Personally I like many of the changes, but I also understand things can and will go wrong. Hopefully with communication that is on this level, and perhaps even better, we can work through the actual issues that develop. At this point, I think we're doing a bit too much worrying about potential issues that may or may not actually be as bad as some people think. I trust, if things do end up being bad that hopefully Ubi will be willing to admit their mistake and change course. We will have to wait and see if that is the case though.

Either way, I can't help but be cautiously optimistic.


Totally agree here.
I just hope that by now they are able to get a fix done faster than for example when Ammar was changed, where the change was decided but could not be done for what, a month? (No criticism here, just an honest hope that this also improved.)

And again, Aza, thanks for showing more presence here on the forum. There was a time when I was disappointed at how rarely I saw you post other than in the role of moderator or to give us some news. I'm really glad that the communication has improved :)

Enchanteur33
02-13-2014, 11:36 PM
Why remove BS1?
Several reasons:

Make it "rare": this actually makes older players feel like they have something really special that other players do not have. It's a sort of symbol that they've been active for quite a long time. It also makes it interesting for new players to collect, a sort of "premium" card status.
Clean out the card list for new players: right now, new players have to understand the gameplay style of just under 700 cards... that's just way too much! Setting the BS1 aside (for the moment at least) will make it significantly easier for new players to come to grips with the card pool.

Aza

2 - clean out ?
so hard to make a filter with a program tools...

1 - Make it rare.
You presume that old players are swollen with pride ?!
I really don't care about these stupids considerations.
Who want to "feel like special", or have a "premium statut" ? ****y egocentric psychology.
Who care about that when this kind of decisions will remove progressivly old cards. Lesser and lesser players then will play with it, and no one more new player than can buy it.
Death of old sets, I loose my money at buying theses cards, humbug.
You are dreaming, if you figure there will be a tidal wave of new players.
But for sure, there will be an army of old players gone, and I am.

Enough talking
Just look at that :
94.06%

zapp626
02-13-2014, 11:47 PM
Now that I know that the expansions are going to stay in the shop I think that the impact on open format of removing the BS1 pack will be way less that most people think. Think about it, most "must have" cards are rares / epics anyway (and a lot of them from the expansions btw.) so you already have to get them with WCs.

I.e. if you are playing stronghold getting that stack of tainted orcs is not such a big investment (Sure, Paos, DAs etc. I got exactly ONE of those with reinforcement packs). Of course its more brutal for other factions, but overall the jump from a solid standard deck to open is not so hard as one might think at first.

All in all I now have invested around 80 WCs or so to get a single good deck, so we are all spending a lot of them anyway. And you are not going to need so much of them to get a good deck for standard (If Ubi doesn't up WC prices of course.)

Enchanteur33
02-14-2014, 12:23 AM
Now that I know that the expansions are going to stay in the shop I think that the impact on open format of removing the BS1 pack will be way less that most people think. Think about it, most "must have" cards are rares / epics anyway (and a lot of them from the expansions btw.) so you already have to get them with WCs.


Wrong.
Each additionnal expansions will remove an old one.
BS2 will remove BS1 for sale
First expansion after BS2 will remove "herald of the void" for sale.
Etc... endless.

zapp626
02-14-2014, 09:00 AM
Well I was referring to BS2 of course. We don't even know anything about upcoming extensions, so at this point it's useless to talk about this.

Also, when an old extensions rotates out and is replaced with a new extension, so what? Sure at one point it will be hard for a new player to own ALL the cards in the game, but that is not going to be a big deal. Cards from new extensions will probably be as powerful as the old extensions so you will be able to compete in open even if you own only a fraction of the cards.

And let me tell you tale about how I bought VR packs (I got around 300 VR cards at this point). You know how many Wolf Captains I got? Or Blackskull Vulture Riders? Exactly 0. So yea, getting the cards you need has always been about buying them with WCs.

Will there be an impact by removing BS1 from the store (And old extensions for new extensions)? Sure. Will it destroy the game? I don't think so.

To be fair, I also voted to keep the BS1 packs in the store. I just don't think it is the end of the world to remove them.

Aza404
02-14-2014, 10:44 AM
@Enchanter33: I respect your opinion, but I think you assume way too much.
This may not be a move you agree with, but thinking that the majority of players agrees with your position on this is simply wrong.

FYI: whenever we released specific cards that could only be acquired if you had taken part in a special event (for example: the DoC closed beta, the Raiders beta, specific competitions etc.) the players who had got those cards were extremely pleased with them! The "rare" status really helped.
And yes, most of these players did have a touch of pride owning one of these cards. (note I used the word "most" as, just like you, some players don't care for that type of thing)

Moreover, I would love to know where you get your info! Where did anyone say anything about every new expansion getting ride of an old one? With all due respect, I call male cow excrement on this!

Best,
Aza

Revalon
02-14-2014, 11:12 AM
Moreover, I would love to know where you get your info! Where did anyone say anything about every new expansion getting ride of an old one? With all due respect, I call male cow excrement on this!

Guess that was me (and maybe others), as I understood it like that. But there has been pretty much I had to read in a short time in all those threads, so maybe I understood it wrong.



We mentionned that we're going to remove packs from the shop. The first base set is the only set that will be removed once BS2 arrives. Void Rising will be the next set to rotate out, but the other expansions will still be available in the shop.

I hope you see how this made me believe that with every new expansion, an older one would disappear from shop. But I guess I might have seen more in these lines than there is.

Aza404
02-14-2014, 11:20 AM
@Revalon: I get it now thanks!
However, until the BS2 is actually out, a lot of details can still change...

Enchanteur33
02-14-2014, 11:50 AM
@Enchanter33: I respect your opinion, but I think you assume way too much.
This may not be a move you agree with, but thinking that the majority of players agrees with your position on this is simply wrong.


94 % of players on this topic. It's what I call massive majority.



FYI: whenever we released specific cards that could only be acquired if you had taken part in a special event (for example: the DoC closed beta, the Raiders beta, specific competitions etc.) the players who had got those cards were extremely pleased with them! The "rare" status really helped.
And yes, most of these players did have a touch of pride owning one of these cards. (note I used the word "most" as, just like you, some players don't care for that type of thing)


These cards are only "special design", nothing that change a meta.
I prefer keep my cards playables, that means there is enough new players that can buy theses sets, than be a collector and get pride of having rares cards that will do nothing over the time.

It's logical :
- Keep cards in shop have no negative impact for the game. (eventualy a "legacy shop" if you don't want to perturb noobies)
- Remove cards in shop will make theses cards unplayable over the time, because no new players will buy it, and old players will slowly diseapers (or maybe quicly soon...). So a real negative impact.
- there is no need to remove cards from shop because this is a virtual game, so no "out of print".
- and there is others TCG games both physical and virtual. physical have an out of print (of course), but virtual let to player opportunity to buy olds cards, and play others format than standard one. It's the good way.

Logicaly, the choosen decision is absurd.



Moreover, I would love to know where you get your info! Where did anyone say anything about every new expansion getting ride of an old one? With all due respect, I call male cow excrement on this!

Best,
Aza

svilleneuve post in this page :
http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/832417-Base-Set-Two-Card-List-Feedback-Thread-Event/page26


- Open and Standard format

The format you're playing now (open) will be available as much as it is now. If you want to play with cards that are not in BS2, you will be able to do so, with no problems.

We mentionned that we're going to remove packs from the shop. The first base set is the only set that will be removed once BS2 arrives. Void Rising will be the next set to rotate out, but the other expansions will still be available in the shop.

So, this endless process is clear. Each time an new expansions is realesed, an old one rotate out from the shop.
This game will remove cards forever, and remove possibility to players to buy cards in order to play others meta than standard one of the moment.
I will not waste my time and my money at buying cards than will become unplayables. Let's say "playables" but without opponents. Final joke...

Aza404
02-14-2014, 12:00 PM
Just to address that 94% you keep using: if you look at the 3 choices offered it is absolutely normal that people should vote for the 1st option. I mean seriously, who wouldn't want to simply still be able to buy all the cards for gold?!

I actually don't think the poll brings anything new to the table and it certainly does not help in understanding why the BS2 may be a positive or negative addition to the game: it simply says people want to be able to buy all the cards.
Without proper context and explanation, votes and statistics don't really mean much: hospitals are the safest place on earth as they have the most doctors there, but they are also the most dangerous as most people die in a hospital. Statistics are all very good but really can't be used to explain a complex change like the one that BS2 will bring.
The 94% only shows that most people want to buy all the cards for gold... (sorry but that number alone has got very little to do with most of the changes BS2 will bring)

Once again, you are entitled to your opinion, but I strongly disagree with it and would not encourage you in thinking everyone shares that opinion.

Enchanteur33
02-14-2014, 12:16 PM
It's not about my opinion!

You seem to intentionaly misunderstand, or have a logical lack, so I quote exact text of the topic.

Should it be still possible to get old sets with gold after the release of base set2?
Voters 220.
1 - Yes, please i want the old card packs for gold! 93.64%
2 - Yes, but i only want to pay wildcards for them! 3.64%
3 - No, i only want to get base set 2 cards
Isn't clear ?
The Question is exactly about what we are talking!
"Get the old sets with gold", like it is doable actualy

aswer 1 : people say they want to be able to buy old sets, they don't want sets removed from shop.
aswer 2 : they want to pay wildcards in order buying olds cards, like official decision want.
aswer 3 : other unespected possibility, not concerned.

we are not in an hospital here ! or maybe a psychiatric hospital...

Kinetic_42
02-14-2014, 02:10 PM
It's not about my opinion!

And that's why you will never win this argument. You can't even understand that this is your opinion. Even if you believe it is shared by others, doesn't make it not your opinion. Frankly, the poll is bad, like Aza says.

Its like saying, "Would you like free kiwis, or would you like to pay for kiwis." Well ******* it, I want free kiwis, duh. The only person voting against free kiwis would be the person selling kiwis. But, you know, 99% of people voting on whether kiwis are free want free kiwis.

Enchanteur33
02-14-2014, 02:31 PM
I'm not sure the expression "not about" is the good one, because i don't masterize english langage.
Of course it's my opinion.
But what I mean is that the vote on the topic don't concerne me and my opinion. It's the opinion of the others 94% !
There is no reason to consider me and my opinion particulary. More clear now ?

Aza404
02-14-2014, 02:38 PM
But the poll is simply not objective. It doesn't add anything to the discussion as the question and answer simply doesn't give any interesting and constructive choices to the people voting.

Enchanteur33
02-14-2014, 02:54 PM
Listen guy,
We can battle all the day like this, and it's not the purpose.
I will stop here, because I think now, all I had to tell is ever say, and clear.
So, everybody get enough clues to make is opinion by himself.
Bye.

Gadjemil
02-14-2014, 03:17 PM
But the poll is simply not objective. It doesn't add anything to the discussion as the question and answer simply doesn't give any interesting and constructive choices to the people voting.

I'm not sure of what you expect exactly from this poll. The question is clear and a majority of voters has clearly stated that they still want to be able to buy old packs for gold. I think that's clear enough. We have just expressed our opinion as customers, but if you believe that this is not interesting and constructive enough for you, let it be. As customers, we are free to leave and that's what we'll do.

UShed
02-14-2014, 03:41 PM
Hey... It looks like you turn a deaf ear to what most of people here are writting:

- BS2 is a cool thing
- Remove BS1 cards from shop is a bad thing. (and this is what this poll is about).

It cannot be clearer.

Melkentich
02-14-2014, 03:59 PM
Please, create a right and objective survey, Aza.... We will see the result.

Aza404
02-14-2014, 04:33 PM
Guys, I understand your point of view and am passing it on to the devs!
I was simply trying to point out that the 94% doesn't necessarily represent anything real as answer A was the only real answer there.

The team knows that many people still want to be able to acquire cards, we're not ignoring that fact.

However, as stated before, we have clear reasons as to why we might take those cards out of the shop and again, as I said before, please wait to see how the expansion changes the game before saying it was a good or a bad change!

Gadjemil
02-14-2014, 04:51 PM
[...] I was simply trying to point out that the 94% doesn't necessarily represent anything real as answer A was the only real answer there.

[...]

However, as stated before, we have clear reasons as to why we might take those cards out of the shop [...]

"Answer A was the only real answer". Meanwhile, answer B (old cards obtainable via wildcards only) was EXACTLY the solution initially proposed by the devs. A vast majority of voters didn't chose that answer, but it clearly doesn't represent anything...

As for the reasons to retire the old expansions, I imagine them too well.

Dipl0mate
02-14-2014, 05:09 PM
Guys, I understand your point of view and am passing it on to the devs!
I was simply trying to point out that the 94% doesn't necessarily represent anything real as answer A was the only real answer there.

The team knows that many people still want to be able to acquire cards, we're not ignoring that fact.

However, as stated before, we have clear reasons as to why we might take those cards out of the shop and again, as I said before, please wait to see how the expansion changes the game before saying it was a good or a bad change!

Maybe I missed it but the only point I see from an Ubi guy about BS1 disappearing from shop says something like this : We dont want new player to buy BS1 where they should start with BS2. And im sorry but this poll is way more honest than this answer. Your point about statistics which does not make sense without proper context also is terrible. As you said there is a single possible answer here but not because there are not enough answer given, nor because the question is malformed but because the answer is OBVIOUS. Your example with the hospital is terrible. If the question is "Is an Hospital the more dangerous or the safer place in the world ?", then there is a discussion about what dangerous means. Here the question is "Should we still be able to buy BS1 packs with gold ?". So lets argue about "why you should be able to buy a pack with gold instead of being obliged to use wildcards ?" Where is the need for arguing ? Your argument (only one I read, please give me your others if they do exist) is so new players dont buy them instead of BS2. Like the only way to solve this was to remove BS1 packs from the shop... Because I see you like comparison, I have an other "similar" problem for you. My little cousin is affraid of my cat when he comes home, what should I do ? Kill my cat ? Wait, I love my cat, so lets kill my little cousin instead. I guess I just proved that we should keep up with our first guess... Damned now that I think of it, all of what you said makes perfect sense.

Gratiano25
02-14-2014, 05:15 PM
However, as stated before, we have clear reasons as to why we might take those cards out of the shop and again, as I said before, please wait to see how the expansion changes the game before saying it was a good or a bad change!

So stop me if I made a mistake : you say "We have decided what is good for you and we don't listen the complaint. So shut the **** up..."

and so I can say bye. It'll be without me.

SpatulaOfDoom
02-14-2014, 05:21 PM
Look, I haven't heard a convincing argument yet about why packs would be removed from the store, and I think that old cards should still be purchasable from the store, even if it's something like Seals only (buying for gold would be even better). I would really like to hear all of the reasons behind why the team has decided to remove packs from the store, but in the meantime, if I'm going to make a poll and walk around as if I have evidence of anything worthwhile, I will include legitimate options for people who may disagree with me, and would probably prefer to ask the question in a way that is less "here is my opinion about something obvious DAE???" and more "Here is an issue, would you prefer other options to this issue, and if so, what?" Honestly, I ignored this poll, even though I agree with the motive, just because the options were crap and I didn't feel it was worth voting in. You said yourself, this is a PETITION, why do you even have a poll?

I'm not going to discredit what you guys are attempting to do, and yes, it's clear that people still want old packs for gold - but what does this tell us? Is this something we didn't already know? Is this question being presented in a way that will make Ubisoft think critically about what they're doing? Obviously, something has fallen short if Aza is here critiquing the objectivity of the poll. If you put the team in a defensive position just from the title of the thread and the limited selections, you're not going to get the result you want.

Here, I'll help you:

Aza404 and DoC Team,

We, the players and avid fans of MMDoC, do not completely understand or approve of the decision to remove the cards outside of BS2 from the store. We, the players, would still very much enjoy playing Open format to the best of our ability, and many of us do not yet have all the cards we need from the first set, and would enjoy the chance to continue gathering these cards via packs for both Gold and Seals. We believe that the removal of BS1 packs from the store will have a negative impact on the quality of Open play as a whole, where new players will not be able to enjoy that HALF of the game as they should be, since the Wild Card costs are very high, and it doesn't make sense for players to spend Wild Cards on BS1 cards when they are already being pressured to play Standard. We realize you must do what you can to incentivize players to transition to Standard play, but we think this can be done in other ways that don't harm the Open scene quite as much.

We are open to hearing your exact justifications for this change so we can better understand the decision. In the meantime, before BS2 is released, know that we would be happier as a whole if all cards remained available in packs purchasable on the store for gold, or at the very least, seals.

Sincerely,
Your dedicated, but slightly confused players

Melkentich
02-14-2014, 05:24 PM
[...] it was a good or a bad change!

And if it's a bad change ? Which options stay ? Quit or... What ??? UBI will change its policy and put all BS1's packs in the store ?

So, maybe, is this better to talk about that now ?

Revalon
02-14-2014, 09:06 PM
And if it's a bad change ? Which options stay ? Quit or... What ??? UBI will change its policy and put all BS1's packs in the store ?

So, maybe, is this better to talk about that now ?

Yes, I think that they will put it back if they see that it was a mistake to take it out.
Just like them, we can only guess what will happen,. Maybe they are right to do what they're planning and it will work fine, maybe they're not. It's good to talk about it, but both sides should be open to the other's point.

journeyman1414
02-15-2014, 03:39 AM
Why remove BS1?
Several reasons:

Make it "rare": this actually makes older players feel like they have something really special that other players do not have. It's a sort of symbol that they've been active for quite a long time. It also makes it interesting for new players to collect, a sort of "premium" card status.



I won't feel special about owning a several functioning Legacy decks decks, because now I know that my hopes of creating other Legacy decks is basically over. I also feel sad that my other friends and other players will not have the same ease of getting the Legacy decks that we are currently playing, which will result to a thinner playerbase in the legacy format. We can estimate that the number of legacy players is around the number of players who are playing JP. However we have observed the decline of active players are already declining during the past months. Therefore we will be expecting a thinner player base for this format and it is certainly not fun.

I'd be more happy if new players should have same access to legacy cards as with seasoned players, rather than feel "special' that I have these cards.





Clean out the card list for new players: right now, new players have to understand the gameplay style of just under 700 cards... that's just way too much! Setting the BS1 aside (for the moment at least) will make it significantly easier for new players to come to grips with the card pool.



I'd say this is a good move by the devs. The game will be more refreshing to play since there will be 2 formats. :)



I can't go into detail about the monetization aspects, but before you say anything about Ubi being greedy, let me say this: as far as I'm concerned, BS1 & 2 separation is a good thing for players as it simplifies everything out for them ; however I think having both sets available at once would actually generate more money for Ubi as players would have more incentive to get all the cards. So I would be willing to say that, in this scenario, it's clearly not a question of money. Please note that this is not an official Ubi position on this, simply my personal assumptions and feelings.

Once again, these are big changes to the game as we know it, so please be patient before making up your minds about whether this is a beneficial or a detrimental move in the long run.

Best,
Aza


Well here we go. While the devs continue to make the game experience enjoyable, I think the people behind the monetization are not doing their job well. Well, the promotion fiascoes during the past months are forgivable, the decision to make legacy cards harder/more expensive to obtain could be the nail on the coffin. People who have been playing and collecting at their own pace are suddenly punished by the drastic changes with the old cards (also achievements).

You said that Ubisoft has to make money for this, that's why we the customers/fans are here. A good start is to make the playerbase happy (keep the loyalty of paying customers and at the same time encourage casual players to support the game). I hope we can reach out a Win-Win situation on this matter. MMDOC is still the the best online card game around and I hope it will remain fun.

Please read my suggestions regarding BS2 see link below:
http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/832417-Base-Set-Two-Card-List-Feedback-Thread-Event?p=9532955&viewfull=1#post9532955

Thanks and more power to you guys!

MindVega
02-15-2014, 05:50 AM
Meanwhile ...6000 players in last JP when we had 10000 by the end of last year.

I'd like to know your thoughts about that Aza our maybe it doesn't mean anything either.

I remember back in December some people were claiming the declining numbers was due to the Holidays. When January came, these people then claimed the low numbers was due to school starting and January just being a "busy month." Haha!!

If it's one thing I learned about people it is their incredible capacity for denial; they are masters at lying to themselves. People fool themselves that history serves as examples of mistakes from which we learn never to repeat, but the fact is history repeats all the time because people are so good at believing what they want to believe rather than facing up to facts. The team behind MMDOC is starting to become a fine example of this: they are mostly deaf to what the majority of their playerbase are saying, and only focus on what they want and trying to force that on the players.

Enchanteur33
02-15-2014, 10:03 AM
If it's one thing I learned about people it is their incredible capacity for denial; they are masters at lying to themselves. People fool themselves that history serves as examples of mistakes from which we learn never to repeat, but the fact is history repeats all the time because people are so good at believing what they want to believe rather than facing up to facts. The team behind MMDOC is starting to become a fine example of this: they are mostly deaf to what the majority of their playerbase are saying, and only focus on what they want and trying to force that on the players.

You are absolutely right!

There is another psychological process in action : when someone take a bad decision, there is a natural difficulty of the human mind to realize that, and change. Most of people perpetuate and insist, instead of understand this process, and choose another way.

It's exactly what they do with this decision : they choose to make a virtual game BUT a game that look and work like a PHYSICAL game.
Past errors are numerous on this subject:
- impossible to put more same card in differents decks (and the reason they give was "we want the game look like a physical game" !).
- they said they prefer print new cards instead of balance/nerf/up olds cards. A physical game can't choose another way, but it's non-sens in a virtual game. Really bad for the game! all cards should be enjoyable to play.
- they said they want some bad cards in the game, for bad reasons (no-one need bad cards into a game to learn it). Again, physicals games sells bad cards because they want to sell more. But it hurt the game (see last standards decks of MTG, always same cards, not various).
- final and worst one : simulation of the "out of print" expansions. And this one will be the suicidal dead end of this decision.

Enchanteur33
02-15-2014, 10:16 AM
MMDOC is still the the best online card game around and I hope it will remain fun.


Not for long ! Ok DoC' players will not play crapys games like hearstone, but there is high levels TCG games on the way, like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwEu4p4OGkU
or this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRDL71SpT-Q
And probably anothers...

Aza404
02-17-2014, 10:37 AM
Yes, I think that they will put it back if they see that it was a mistake to take it out.
Just like them, we can only guess what will happen,. Maybe they are right to do what they're planning and it will work fine, maybe they're not. It's good to talk about it, but both sides should be open to the other's point.

This!


Once again, I am not denying your wish to see all the cards kept in the shop, simply asking you to wait for the expansion to come out before making up your mind about this.
Of course the team listens to you guys and nothing is 100% certain as we can very easily fix this if we find it does not work.

Once again, I don't disagree with the 94%, I simply find it's not objective when taking into account what the other answers on offer were. That is my point of view and I would like to see a bit more respect for people's views in this thread. I've passed along the fact that many of you want to keep the cards in the shop, even if I don't really agree with it: not agreeing doesn't prevent me from respecting your point of view.

The reasons why we're doing this were given earlier in this thread: as a reminder, we're not saying this is the best solution (yet), simply that this is our wish in order to make the initial user experience better for new players. If we find it changes things too much we'll adjust.

Best,
Aza

NightEnder
03-18-2014, 04:58 PM
This!


Once again, I am not denying your wish to see all the cards kept in the shop, simply asking you to wait for the expansion to come out before making up your mind about this.
Of course the team listens to you guys and nothing is 100% certain as we can very easily fix this if we find it does not work.

Once again, I don't disagree with the 94%, I simply find it's not objective when taking into account what the other answers on offer were. That is my point of view and I would like to see a bit more respect for people's views in this thread. I've passed along the fact that many of you want to keep the cards in the shop, even if I don't really agree with it: not agreeing doesn't prevent me from respecting your point of view.

The reasons why we're doing this were given earlier in this thread: as a reminder, we're not saying this is the best solution (yet), simply that this is our wish in order to make the initial user experience better for new players. If we find it changes things too much we'll adjust.

Best,
Aza

In all seriousness, if you want to provide better user experience, you should make cards more available and not more difficult. You know what killed vintage and legacy of magic the gathering? Insane card price. I have mentioned it few times but you guys seem not to listen, so this may be the last time I am posting about wildcards. If you are not going to change it, then at least grab something from Hearthstone and turn around Infernal Pit of garbage disposal into something useful.