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del170109032657
02-07-2014, 09:11 PM
With the announcement of Base Set Two, we are looking for your thoughts and feelings toward the new card list. Below is a list of the cards that will be available in Base Set Two. Please feel free to give us your feedback and stream your analysis of the card list on TwitchTV. What strategies will be awesome? What do you feel is missing? Anything that seems out of place? For posting/streaming your thoughts, you may be selected to take part in the first ever Base Set Two preview tournament. This event will be held on February 22nd. To be selected, you must have posted your feedback / links to your feedback here in this thread.



http://static2.cdn.ubi.com/MM-DOC/Base_set2.png


FAQ:


Will there be any new cards added to the new Base Set or is this only a reshuffling?

There will be no new cards in Base Set Two, but a new series should be released shortly after. Simon has announced that the team is already working on it.


Will there be any updated artwork to the cards?

Not in Base Set Two. Stay tuned for more info on the next series.


What will happen with Base Set One cards?

Those cards will be considered as out of print but you will still be able to get them through the Altar of Wishes. The first base set is the only set that will be removed from the store once BS2 arrives. Void Rising will be the next set to rotate out, but the other expansions will still be available in the shop.


Will the cards I purchase now be useless? Will I have to pay for cards in Base Set Two even if I've already owned the card in the past?

You will be able to play all cards in the new Open format. Older cards that are still in BS2 will be still usable in the Standard format. There is no need to purchase a new copy of the card for play in Standard mode.


Will new playing formats be available?

Yes! There will be Standard (Base Set 2 and following series), Open (all cards) and Weekly. Weekly will consist of fun rules and restrictions such as only using commons.


What will happen with Base Set One achievements?

Achievements regarding “out of print” cards will be removed. We will add new achievements! If there are still Base Set One achievements you want to complete, now is the time to do it.


Should I wait to spend my gold and seals?

As there will be no new cards in Base Set Two, you can definitely still purchase what you want. All cards will be playable in Open format. Additionally, any cards you have now that are also in Base Set Two will still be usable.


Which packs will be awarded by Swiss tournaments after the release of BS2?

Currently, the reward for the Swiss tournament is always a pack from the latest expansion. This doesn't mean that the rewards will always stay like this, but there is currently no change planned for the next release.


Which changes will this make to Jackpot and Swiss Tournaments?

Format rotation. Some days tournaments will be Open format, some days will be Standard, and some days will use Weekly.


Will the cards that players have invested time and money into become obsolete? Will older cards become banned in play?

Absolutely not! Those cards will be usable in different tournament formats. Older cards that are still in B02 will be usable in the Standard format. No need to have the new copy.


Will older cards still be available in packs? How will I acquire older cards?

Base Set One will be removed from the Shop. We want new players to use B2 since it will be the Standard format. Overall, we feel it will bring a more diversified meta. People who really want out of print cards (Base Set One) will be able to get them through the Altar of Wishes. Still, it’s not impossible that one day we bring Base Set One cards back in the Shop.


Will the UI update Sam Jobin hinted at during his Reddit AMA be included in this patch?

Absolutely! This update is currently planned for the Base Set Two patch.


Can we expect Draft to come with Base Set Two?

No news yet. Simon has stated that if draft happens, it needs to be done right. More news as it becomes available.


Any release schedule for Base Set Two?

Simon has stated that late March is the current goal, but this could change based on feedback and tweaks to the set.


---

NOTE: Cards colored in RED have been REMOVED from Base Set Two.


Base Set Two Card List


Buildings

Academy: Arcane Orb
Haven: Watchtower
Inferno: Hall of Nightmares
Necropolis: Soul Spire
Sanctuary: Hidden Dojo
Stronghold: War Tent


Creatures

Academy

Scholar
Dragon Golem ---> Replaced by Rakshasa
Gargoyle
Spirit-Bound Djinn
Wizard Apprentice
Wizard Tutor
Wizard Disciple
Djinn
Guardian Golem
Titan
Obsidian Gargoyle
Nethermancer
Void-Tainted Djinn
Shantiri Titan
Rakshasa Scout
Surging Titan
Dervish Master
Nur, Spellweaver
Sentinel of the Ages
Rakshasa Skirmisher

Haven

Imperial Guard
Imperial Crossbowman
Loyal Griffin
Radiant Glory ---> Replaced by Sun Rider
Elite Squire
Wolf Praetorian
Wolf Justicar
Griffin Marksman
Griffin Knight
Griffin Battle Priest
Angel of Mercy
Crusader Commander
Crusader Watchman
Crusader Treasurer
Scattershot Marksman
Crusader Chaplain
Anael, Angel of Redemption
Crusader Sergeant
Vindicator ---> Replaced by Tithe Collector
Crusader Vanguard

Inferno

Doom Bringer
Cerberus
Juggernaut
Maniac
Succubus
Hellfire Imp
Hellfire Cerberus
Caller of the Void
Hellfire Bloater
Hellfire Slave
Chaos Lacerator
Hellfire Maniac
Chaos Seer
Void Arbiter
Lurker in the Dark
Lashing Lilim
Abyssal Worm
Fate Bender
Reborn Incubus

Necro

The Banshee
Atropos, Weaver of the Dead
Fate Weaver
Vampire Lord
Lingering Ghost
Wretched Ghoul
Neophyte Lich
Putrid Lamasu
Archlich
Vengeful Spectre
Vampire Knight
Plague Zombie
Moonsilk Skeleton
Moonsilk Spinner
Fate Sealer ---> Replaced by Vampire Assassin
Hangman Tree
Untamed Wraith
Namtaru Channeler
Decay Spitter
Plague Bearer
Undead Minotaur
Scavenger Ratkin

Sanctuary

Kenshi
Kappa ---> Replaced by Naga Yokujin
Pearl Priestess ---> Replaced by Naga Tide Master
Shark Guard
Mizu-Kami
Snow Maiden
Spring Spirit
Coral Priestess
Deep Mountain Yeti
Kabuki Tei
Shinje Warrior
Unmei-Kami
Stream Singer
Venerable Kappa ---> Replaced by White Fox
Sayama Champion
Sayama Warden
Raya, Sibilant Seductress
Silver Bowl Spirit
Sand Kame ---> Replaced by Wanizame

Stronghold

Wyvern Rider
Ranaar Harpy
Centaur Archer
Enraged Cyclops
Dreamwalker
Panther Warrior
Goblin Scout
Dreamreaver
Crusher
Goblin Hunter
Blackskull Warchanter
Blackskull Goblin
Blackskull Vulture Rider ---> Replaced by Raging Smasher
Blackskull Clan Warlord
War Oliphant
Blackskull Centaur
Blackskull Shredder
Bloodfrenzied Wyvern
Blackskull Cyclops
Blackskull Spellsmasher
Blackskull Crusher
Sahaar Brute ---> Replaced by Cyclops Brawler
Zefiria
Sahaar Orc

Neutral

Sea Elf Archer
Lesser Air Elemental
Lesser Fire Elemental
Angry Wyvern
Black Vulture
Blind Brother ---> Replaced by Wandering Bard
Greater Fire Elemental
Shi-No-Shi
Void Wraith
Greater Earth Elemental
Greater Air Elemental
Moon Phoenix
Sahaar Skirmisher
Greater Water Elemental
Lesser Light Elemental


Events

Rise of the Nethermancer
Day of Fortune
Week of Knowledge
Week of the Dead
Week of the Mercenaries
Week of the Weaponsmiths
Day of the Sanctuary
Hail Storm
Cosmic Balance
Time of War
Night of the Rising Moon
The Great Hunt


Fortunes

Academy

Favorite Spell
Severed Fate
Forgotten Spell
Rift's Echo
Chain Casting
Offering to the Void
Arcane Intuition
Memory Lapse

Haven

Cassandra's Imperial Devotion
Fountain of Youth
Tree of Truth
Truce of Elrath
Offensive Stance
Stockpile
Morgan's Inspiration
Favor of the Just

Inferno

Garant's Purge
Hall of Torment
Halls of Amnesia
Maws of Chaos
Void Judgment
Dunes of Madness
Gate to Sheogh
Phrias' Gift
Sacrifice

Necro

Seria's Legion
Ariana's Lair
Early Grave
Seria's Last Order
Death is Not the End
Soul Harvest

Sanctuary

Challenge Hall
Yukiko's Shrine
The Frozen Maze
Battle Trance
Road to Enlightenment
Sinkhole
Honor Binds Us
Noboru's Insight
Truce

Stronghold

Sacrificial Altar
Surprise Attack
Zefiria's Celerity
Famous Last Blows

Neutral

Gold Pile ---> Replaced by Campfire
Observatory
Arcane Academy
Stolen Supplies ---> Replaced by Broken Bridge
Forgotten Cave
Revised Tactics
Altar of Wishes
Fortune Telling
Volunteers ---> Replaced by Altar of Asha
Time Of Need
The Price of the Void
Architect's Wonder


Heores

Academy

Hakeem, Seeker of Mysteries
Asalah, Invoker of Castigation
Myranda, Blademage Champion
Akane, Caller of Memories

Haven

Kieran
Cassandra, Seeker of Light
Alia, Caller of Faith
Morgan

Inferno

Garant, Seeker of Discord
Kal-Azaar, Invoker of Agony
Dhamiria, Caller of Madness
Ignatius

Necro

Seria, Seeker of the Lost Souls
Mother Namtaru, Invoker of Death
Fleshbane, Champion of the Misshapen
Ariana of the Severed Fates

Sanctuary

Yukiko, Seeker of Honour
Takana Osore, Champion of the Tides
Noboru, Caller of Twilight
Shalan

Stronghold

Acamas
Kat, Seeker of Freedom
Shaar, Invoker of the Skies
Zardoc, Caller of Valor


Spells

Air

Chain Lightning
Lightning Bolt
Lifting Wind
Sand Storm
Air Trap
Homebound Winds
Forked Lightning ---> Replaced by Father Sky's Wrath
Thunder Weapon
Ylath's Breath

Dark

Curse of the Netherworld
Death Seal
Soulreaver
Moonsilk Fetters
Shared Agony
Cursed Bound
Enthrall
Wither
Moonsilk Strand

Earth

Insect Swarm
Mass Regeneration
Stone Shield
Poisonous Bulb
Earth Bound
Sylvanna's Embrace
Deep Roots
Symbiotic Barkskin
Landslide

Fire

Immolation
Fire Bolt
Fire Shield
Inner Fire
Fiery Death
Fire Blast
Mass Rage
Lava Stream
Soulfire

Light

Bless
Cleansing Light
Divine Intervention
Martyr
Guardian Angel
Aura of Healing
Lay of Hands
Elrath's Protection
Chain Heal ---> Replaced by Word of Light

Prime

Dispel Magic
Teleport
Time Jump
Town Portal
Mass Dispel
Minor Recall
Spirited Away
Void Ripple
Nether Curse

Water

Ice Spikes
Geyser
Icy Weapon
Ice Shell
Cold Fear
Focused Mind
Ink Warrior
Shalassa's Blade
Ice Armour

VampFury
02-07-2014, 09:15 PM
Let me start my review/feedback:

Buildings - pretty good, excluded unique ones and added representative of building type to BS2. Good work.

Creatures -
Academy:
- 3 drop slot is a bit off. There are only two phased guys. I would swap Wizard Disciple for Rakshasa or Unstable Djin as second option if you don't like Rakshasa one.
- Maybe include Taweret Warrior as another 5might requirement creature. It might see play in standard as it sure won't see in open format (any time soon). Am not 100% sure what to exclude, but either Sentinel of the Ages as it is only 6might req for now and it will more likely see play in open (more future potential there also) or go for Djinn, Titan or Obsidian Gargoyle. Maybe Obsidian Gargoyle is best choice because spells are nerfed and you may include some similar 'counter' vs. spell in future sets.

Haven:
- Let me suggest heresy here. Exclude Radiant Glory. I am serious. Explanation: Radiant Glory is just to good. So far Haven is pretty destroyed and it will need new expansion to get back on foot. Than kill it with Glory also, so in future we have more diverse Haven. Note to all Haven players that want to kill me now, I am Haven player also! :P
What to include - Sun Rider maybe or Wolf Marksman. Or maybe even Wolf Guard as 2 drop is more lacking than 3.

Inferno:
- Lurker in the Dark seems to be too strong of a card to get back to BS2. Keep him away! I would like to see Demented instead! Or even Gated Demon?
- I would exclude either Cerberus or Hellfire Cerberus for something else as 3 drop is clogged. I presume you don't want Lilim or Ravager and I see why, but maybe Ur-Khrag Enforcer or Hellfire Juggernaut even (or even Gated Demon).
-Abyssal Worm vs Abyssal Lord - I feel uneasy, but I guess you did right choice.

Necro:
- Would like to see Hangmen Tree out and Trapper Spider in. Though I might be wrong here...
- Necro has more creatures than some other factions, so I would exclude Vampire Lord or Fate Weaver. (or both for Ghost Dragon)

Sanctuary:
- Include Waterfall Guardians exclude Unmei-Kami.
- Include Naga Yokujin, exclude Snow Maiden.
- Raya vs Naorai Seirsa was possibly mistake to include Raya.
- Exclude Perl Priestess for Naga Tide Master maybe?

Stronghold:
Boy, oh boy... Keep all enrage guys and say night, night to Kelthor. Disregarding that there are a lot of strange choices here...
- Centaur Archer vs Erg Hunter is bit of a question, but I think you made good choice.
- Blackskull Goblin should be excluded.
- Enraged Cyclops should be excluded.
- Blackskull Vulture Rider should be excluded.
- Sahaar Hunter should be included.

Nautral:
- Dark Wood Treant should maybe be included.
- I don't see much use on Greater Water Elemental - it just seems as waste of spot. Drop it?

Events -
- Rise of the Nethermancer was mistake that made for other mistakes and I don't think that it should be included if you like to experiment anything with Graveyard in new standard format.
- Month of the Dancing Flame and Market of Shadows should possibly be in.
- Day of Fortune can be cut.

Fortunes -
Academy:
- Rift's Echo should be changed for Void Tainted Ritual.
- Crimson Bond should be considered.
- Maybe Conversion to the Void instead of Severed Fate?

Haven:
- Offensive Stance should go out, Fortified Outpost should go in.
- Stockpile also not worth it, but ok let it be crap rare...

Inferno:
- Halls of Amnesia and Maws of Chaos should go out for Twist of Fate and Pleasure in Pain.
- Dunes of Madness is just that much of a crap that it shouldn't be in. Instead put in Pit of Hate or House of Madness.

note: I am sad that Altar of Destruction is not included. Rare source of direct damage. Still thinking of that vs Hall of Torment...

Necro:
- Ariana's Lair should be excluded if you decide to keep Rise of the Nethermancer event out.
- Exclude Soul Harvest for A life for a Life (or does that make Necro to strong?).

Sanctuary:
-Everything ok... maybe include Underwater Fortress (for Challenge Hall or Noboru's Insight)?

Stronghold:
- Add Blood Shaman Hut or Blood Pool for some of extra creatures this faction has.

Neutral:
- Decent choices. Maybe Broken Bridge would be ok? Instead one tutor?

Heroes - Done ok. (maybe Nergal instead of Mother)

Spells -
Air:
- Maybe Storm Wind instead of Lifting Wind, but am ok if stays the same.

Dark: Done ok.

Earth:
- Exclude Poisonous Bulb for something meaningless but more cool for new players like Venomous Touch.
- Include Poison Cloud. Maybe instead of Poisonous Bulb, Earth Bound, Sylvanna's Embrace or Mass Regeneration.

Fire:
- Include Frenzy instead of Fiery Death or Fire Shield.

Light:
- So Light gets Martyr, Guardian Angel, Aura of Healing and Chain Heal? I call OP here!
- No Sunburst, no Word of Light, not even a freaking Divine Judgement and no Celestial Armour (though I think I know why Celestial Armour didn't make the cut...)

Either you don't want to give Light school damage spells in future (like ever) or mix things a bit here!

Prime:
- Maybe Teleport here is too much and should be switched for Slow, but I might be off the target here by miles...

Water: Done ok.

Wow, this was long! Congratulations to all those that read it :P

ps. To slow ZergRusher :P

ZergRusher
02-07-2014, 09:23 PM
Short look at haven (T1: Sandalphon, Cassandra).

Sandalphon won't be present in the BS2.

Let's take a look at the Cassandra deck (missing cards in the red):

1x Cassandra, Seeker of Light

Events (8):
4x Mana Storm
4x Week of Training

Creatures (25):
1x Anael, Angel of Redemption
4x Crusader Treasurer
4x Crusader Watchman
1x Griffin Knight
1x Holy Praetorian
3x Loyal Griffin
1x Pao Deathseeker
4x Radiant Glory
2x Soothsayer
4x Wolf Captain

Fortunes (25):
1x Altar of Asha
3x Broken Bridge
4x Campfire
1x Cassandra's Imperial Devotion
3x Cosmic Realignment
2x Cosmic Singularity
4x Pillage
1x Prison
1x Revised Tactics
4x River of Gems
1x Wasteland

no Wolf Captain: it's kinda correct because Wolf Captains were a mistake. On the other hand they were reasons why they were added - haven was UP. I'm afraid that w/o WC haven will become one of the weakest factions.

looking at the list im scared. Haven look very, very weak. I really think you overdid it. Haven is way too weak

and Haven absolutely needs Collectors. Playing w/o 1-drop will only strengthen the discussion about going 2-cd advantage.

Fortunes looks very weak. Why Broken Bridge was excluded?


A couple of thoughts:
- Lurkers w/o Strikes might be too strong
- Haven has no 1-drops (that i would even consider playing)


top heroes: Dhamiria, Zardoc and sb from Necro

Alamand
02-07-2014, 09:26 PM
Let's look on the bright side, at least poisonous bulb survived, would have been completely lost without that spell.

Looking forward to trying immolation decks in BS2 though, with the reduction in board wipes and some creatures dealing fire damage it seems like fire elementals will be quite a bit more useful.

I think the card I'm going to miss the most is going to be Djinn Mentor, don't think my high requirement Academy decks can possibly work without them.

ElkazFATE
02-07-2014, 09:27 PM
Can you give me back my 3k seals for ishuma, Ubi? Btw nice move, put really expensive card into shop, and dont reprint:)

zazoo_1
02-07-2014, 09:33 PM
I have a big issue with this move from them.
I spent a lot of time and money getting some cards and now they wont be valid to play in standard format!

Sorry but Id like a refund on the seals I bought.

Added to that it seem they kept a LOT of cards that no one uses, Air trap for instance.
But they cut great cards that are not unbalanced instead.

Huh that makes no sense what so ever.

x.Lykan.x
02-07-2014, 09:37 PM
Can't believe they kept Hakeem.

valrond1
02-07-2014, 09:43 PM
At least we can use all of our cards in Open format.

zazoo_1
02-07-2014, 09:43 PM
Can't believe they kept Hakeem.

And they drop Kelthor and Sandalphon.

Banehollow89
02-07-2014, 09:44 PM
Can't believe they kept Hakeem.

I don't see the problem, a lot of cards that were included in Hakeem deck are missing. Puppet Masters, Shadow Images, some fortunes, Unique spells, all are gone... I don't see him as problematic.


I have a big issue with this move from them.
I spent a lot of time and money getting some cards and now they wont be valid to play in standard format!

Sorry but Id like a refund on the seals I bought.

Added to that it seem they kept a LOT of cards that no one uses, Air trap for instance.
But they cut great cards that are not unbalanced instead.

Huh that makes no sense what so ever.
They are available in the open format, so I don't see the problem really... The tournament will be in standard or open format depending from day to day, so people will still play both formats.

punkUser
02-07-2014, 09:44 PM
Holy they raped fortune stall decks eh? No altar, no pillage, no prison, no singularity... I'm fine with it as I always found them sort of boring decks but it seems like only stone shield/mass removal is going to be viable for creature-less decks?


I have a big issue with this move from them.
I spent a lot of time and money getting some cards and now they wont be valid to play in standard format!
Meh, card games have to evolve. It's either creating new subsets or power creep. Either way card power varies over time, that's life. It would be lame if the meta never shifted and your "strong cards/decks" were always strong. Everyone is in the same situation here, and they are still letting you play "open" mode if you want.



Added to that it seem they kept a LOT of cards that no one uses, Air trap for instance.
That's the point - to change the metagame. By removing the no-brainer "powerful" cards you open up space for other cards, decks and strategies.

I think it's great to shake things up. Was getting a bit stale, and I look forward to seeing the new decks and strategies that come out with this set.

luorax
02-07-2014, 09:53 PM
Akane + Forked Lightning? Ubi please. I don't get how Akane is still legal, who doesn't even have a last turn restriction and can pretty much toolbox her entire grave, yet Adar is gone, who can only get back stuff from the previous turn?

koolkal1234
02-07-2014, 09:55 PM
You should make Open boosters which only contain Legacy cards for people that want to play the old format instead of just completely removing them from the store.

Kinetic_42
02-07-2014, 09:56 PM
Wandering Bard's exclusion:

It looks like while all the unique spells were removed, it does appear that each faction kept at least one unique creature. The only search tool I saw for them is Time of Need. Without Wandering Bard though, playing with uniques makes the game a lot more swingy.

That is to say, if one player gets their unique, they may have a much more significant advantage than the other player.

I'd like to lobby for Wandering Bard to be included, and perhaps to drop Sahaar Skirmisher or another neutral creature.

gardiet
02-07-2014, 09:56 PM
It seems clear for all the rest of users, but could you clarify?

Only these cards will be available after a limit date?
What date?

Thank you.
gardiet

hectoring
02-07-2014, 09:57 PM
They had to keep Hakeem as the cycle of "Seekers" (1/1/2) are the most basic heroes.

I'm quite disappointed by the lack of Sandalphon though, I think the hero ability is pretty interesting and there won't be a lock deck with the disappearance of so many fortunes. Also Haven now has no one drop?

bigbobbyk
02-07-2014, 09:57 PM
took a quick look at the card list and im liking it. Its a good base for newer players coming in. Alot of people are overreacting and asking for WCs back and its sad. Open play will still be a thing and you can play those cards there. Having 2 formats is amazing i come from playing 10 years of MTG with 4-5 formats with their own metas. Its good for the game and gives it more play. The new UI is a good improvement def wish i could get my hands on it and get some testing on it. I need to take some more time to dive deeper in the list and theory out some decks but its looking good.

Going to go stream now and if you wanna talk about the new base set with me stop on by!!! www.twitch.tv/thecounterbob

YAY NEW STUFF!!!!

noname8902
02-07-2014, 09:59 PM
1) We should get more xp and more gold as our elo proggreses, since games are harder and often last longer:)
2) Shouldnt the players that want to play in the bs2 get their seals and gold back for the packs they already bought, for exmpl- I started the game few days ago, Im 13 lvl and i have only few cards from bs1 (I can't build any solid deck) and those starting seals are compleatly wasted.
3)Since most interesting combos/cards went off from meta dont u think this game will be only boring rush decks dependent game?
4)Since there will be so many creatures and less spells - champions like xorm etc will be pretty op.

horsetronaut
02-07-2014, 09:59 PM
I have been playing the game for a little over two weeks now, and didn't know base set two was coming out, and have already worked on building a competitive collection with PDeathseekers, Dark Assassins and so on. When I first saw this list at first my heart sank as it obsoletes the two decks I've been able to put together so far (Xorm and Ishuma) and it felt like all of the cards I've just acquired were going to be worthless. After reading the list again, I'm excited to see what the new format ends up playing like. I really appreciate changes like including Insect Swarm and removing Earthquake. I'm looking forward to having a few of the cards I'll need in the future while still having a decent base of cards for the older format. Thanks for making such a great game!

Banehollow89
02-07-2014, 10:00 PM
It seems clear for all the rest of users, but could you clarify?

Only these cards will be available after a limit date?
What date?

Thank you.
gardiet

No no, the thing they will release will be Base Set 2. That means you will have 2 type of Formats in DoC:
1) Open format, which can be played with all of the cards that you have today plus cards that are going to be released.
2) Standard format, which can be played with only cards that are listed here.

Tournaments will constantly be switching between these two formats, so you will constantly see new decks, but none of the cards are disappearing.

Enclase
02-07-2014, 10:00 PM
A few weeks ago in Quebec...


Dev 1: Wow, we need more money! Peoples has realized that we only want their money after the 5T and the WC-Changes. Now they are leaving and not paying any longer :(

Dev 2: Yeah...We need a new idea!

Dev 1: I got it...We take out many of the strongest Heroes and cards - and say, they are not playable in normal matches any longer.

Dev 2: And then?

Dev 1: Easy...Before the change offer a limited skin for one of the Heroes who will be removed...let's say....Ishuma! And we take really much for it, so everyone with too much money will feel exclusive and put money into our company!

Dev 2: But that's not really enough to survive another year...:(

Dev 1: Yeah, that's only point 1. After the good cards are out - the cards, the peoples has wasted their Wildcards for - we bring out a new expansion with new strong cards! So they can buy it again! And the best thing: We don't even need balance-changes anymore. Everything what is too strong we will just take out!

Dev 2:Sounds nice, but the expansion should not come instantly - otherwise the people would realize what we try to do!

Dev 1: Obviously. Let's better tell them first, this is a new feature to change the meta and bring more fun into the game. It's not a rob, it's a feature - you know? I'm sure they will eat this ****

Dev 2: Of course they will! They eat every ****...


Nice try Ubi, nice try ;-)



Greetz,
Enclase

ImborLuckor
02-07-2014, 10:00 PM
i would suggest to Change dhamiria out for xorm

dhamiria is overplayed and really broing to Play against

xorm would be a nice Addition, also because Inferno then has a 2 might Hero as other factions with a nice active and Balance ability

CytherSlash
02-07-2014, 10:01 PM
Raya, Sibilant Seductress is one of the strongest Creatures in MMODOC.
Without Darkmagic it is way to hard to get rid of her. She is just too strong for a Balancing Mode that BS2 is supposed to be.

Falux79
02-07-2014, 10:05 PM
I like it at first glance for sure.

My only fear is that the player base will split in 2 bases (open and legacy)

EndlessRamble
02-07-2014, 10:06 PM
This is crazy.

Base Set 2 is basically hearthstone where you just bash creatures against each other.
All mass removal except insect swarm has been removed.
Many efficient point removals have been removed like lightning strike.
Almost every played fortune has been cut.
All key mill cards have been removed

So basically just play something slow and grindy with creatures like Stronghold or Necro because nothing else is going to be viable.

JeditOjanen8
02-07-2014, 10:08 PM
I think the removal suite is slightly too weak. Broken Bridge needs to be in the set - giving Fortunes a little bounce (apart from Truce) won't break anything in the absence of Throne of Renewal and the resource restriction cards. Spells look OK; losing Fireball is a pain, but it was practically identical to Geyser and each school having a distinct feel is better.

Creature-wise, I still think Atropos is too powerful even without Adar and Pao Deathseeker. Honestly I'd rather see Damran back. It's been mentioned also that Necro lacks a 1-drop, which is not good. The big issue is the reprinting of the 1-drop Rakshasa along with Scholar, Gargoyle and Wizard Tutor. Everyone else's creatures have been toned down, the entire game has been slowed by several turns, but Academy - traditionally a stalling faction - has had its defensive suite left essentially untouched. This needs to be examined.

As for everything else: I think people are mostly upset by the scale and suddenness of the change, from base set plus four small sets to just a base set. You should consider performing a Magic-style gradual rotation instead, keeping one base set and four expansion sets in the format at all times. In that way the Void Rising problem cards will phase out when the next expansion set is released. This will at least give people who only just bought all their cards a chance to play with them before they go away - not to mention not removing 80% of the Five Towers cards including all the Epics from regular play within four months of the set's release.

Kinetic_42
02-07-2014, 10:08 PM
This is crazy.

Base Set 2 is basically hearthstone where you just bash creatures against each other.
All mass removal except insect swarm has been removed.
Many efficient point removals have been removed like lightning strike.
Almost every played fortune has been cut.
All key mill cards have been removed

So basically just play something slow and grindy with creatures like Stronghold or Necro because nothing else is going to be viable.

Just the fact that there is 4 lanes makes it significantly more tactical than Hearthstone.

Also, remember, this is JUST a base. While I agree that tossing all the expansions might not be the best move, I am for it this time. Hopefully we see something more along the lines of a rotation where only HALF the sets are rotated out next time, instead of nearly the whole thing, but we will see. Either way, this sort of reset is a good thing.

EndlessRamble
02-07-2014, 10:13 PM
Just the fact that there is 4 lanes makes it significantly more tactical than Hearthstone.

Also, remember, this is JUST a base. While I agree that tossing all the expansions might not be the best move, I am for it this time. Hopefully we see something more along the lines of a rotation where only HALF the sets are rotated out next time, instead of nearly the whole thing, but we will see. Either way, this sort of reset is a good thing.

4 lanes but you can't just attack the enemy hero directly. At first glance this base set makes me feel like I am back at 500 ELO where both players flood the board with as many creatures as they can and games clog down for ages unless you rush them down before they can even do anything. Control decks including anything spell or fortune based are completely unplayable now since there is almost no mass removal and practically 0 playable fortunes.

Anyone who dislikes playing creature aggro is going to hate this new format.

S9TF1
02-07-2014, 10:13 PM
As a Haven player, it saddens me to see that Eleonore has been replaced by the insanely powerful 4 cost Anael. I had actually hoped for the contrary to happen, and I don't get why they have decidede to murder Haven's T1. Not that it really matters, since glories and WCs are still there...

crocolikee94
02-07-2014, 10:15 PM
So what current deck will be strong? should i spend my wc for a specific deck?// is hakeem mill still viable? or dhamiria ...

Sylviugh
02-07-2014, 10:17 PM
i like the new interface,it seams very cool,but i don't understand why u guys will erase the old achivements,i think it will be more fun whit new and old achivements, so please don't delet them,will be bach whit some new feedback when i learn some more stuff from the DOC twitch chanal

VeitGearmaker
02-07-2014, 10:18 PM
i kinda courious to test the new cards out... game will be a lot more about positioning and creature play i guess

but why make legacy format inferior? are you scared of way longer time to search for a suitable opponent?
if we only get "special tournaments" for the older cards and no normal queue i propably wont spend money on this game ever again...

i bought 4 ******* wolf captains just before i heard about BS2...

Kinetic_42
02-07-2014, 10:22 PM
4 lanes but you can't just attack the enemy hero directly. At first glance this base set makes me feel like I am back at 500 ELO where both players flood the board with as many creatures as they can and games clog down for ages unless you rush them down before they can even do anything. Control decks including anything spell or fortune based are completely unplayable now since there is almost no mass removal and practically 0 playable fortunes.

Anyone who dislikes playing creature aggro is going to hate this new format.

Doom Bringer
The Banshee
Decay Spitter
Void Wraith

Favorite Spell
Sacrificial Altar
Surprise Attack

Chain Lightning
Lightning Bolt
Forked Lightning

Insect Swarm
Fire Bolt
Fire Blast
Teleport
Void Ripple
Enthrall
Soulreaver
Curse of the Netherworld
Death Seal
Ice Spikes
Geyser

That's QUITE a lot of control.

Now if you mean pure control decks, yea, right now, it looks like PURE control has taken a heavy nerf. That isn't necessarily a bad thing though. Pure Control is always going to get hurt the most each time a format rotation occurs, but that just gives the newer expansions more opportunity to introduce new types of control.

The way I see it, this type of reset will be similar to how Magic the Gathering effects control. In standard for MtG its rare for a pure control deck to truly dominate, but they can. Its Legacy (Open here) where Pure Control will be their best.

Ussoro
02-07-2014, 10:27 PM
What's with the lack of Stronghold fortunes in BS2?? Where is kat's Grand Fanale?

bjarnist
02-07-2014, 10:29 PM
Here's my initial feedback: http://www.reddit.com/r/duelofchampions/comments/1xarac/base_set_two_card_list_feedback_thread_event/cf9ozn8

RuprechtVanDoom
02-07-2014, 10:30 PM
I like the hero selection. Biggest problem hero might be Academy Akane in a slower environment. She still has access to effective defenders and can recycle Forked Lightning etc as before. Arianna also still looks very potent with access to a lot of powerful spells from 3 schools.

I don't like the selection of Fire Spells. Now that Forbidden Flame is gone and Fire is supposed to be about direct damage I don' get why Fireball was removed while the more passive/boosty Water school keeps Geyser (which is arguably more cost effective often). Makes no sense to me.

I don't like that there are only 4 Stronghold Fortunes. Why can't there at least be a card like Blood Shaman Hut in the list.

gardiet
02-07-2014, 10:32 PM
No no, the thing they will release will be Base Set 2. That means you will have 2 type of Formats in DoC:
1) Open format, which can be played with all of the cards that you have today plus cards that are going to be released.
2) Standard format, which can be played with only cards that are listed here.

Tournaments will constantly be switching between these two formats, so you will constantly see new decks, but none of the cards are disappearing.

Thank you very much, Banehollow89.
It is quite strange mix both formats. And I can't see the advantage of standard format, with less cards, less possibilities, less strategies.

Best regards
gardier

m3chladon54
02-07-2014, 10:34 PM
Super happy about the update. This is exactly what the game needed. My only complaints are Inferno got kind of crippled hard, like I don't even know why you would play Ignatius anymore. Fire got destroyed, like easily the worst element. I kind of wished Soulreaver was banned, but Darkness took a decent hit. Stronghold also look largely unaffected, they will probably end up being the best faction if not Academy.

Haven fatty decks incoming also.

EndlessRamble
02-07-2014, 10:35 PM
....

Keep in mind that for every given hero they will have access maybe 1-2 of those cards. With how efficient many creatures still are the disparity between spells/fortunes and creatures is enormous. Air magic you'll have no viable spells until FOUR magic. Fire magic has firebolt and WHOA FIREBLAST. Water Magic has Geyser then the abyss, Light Magic has tears. Only shadow still has any semblance of strength. Fortunes, what fortunes? I guess I can favorite spell for ice spikes, talk about efficiency, be still my beating heart.

I thought this was based on Heroes of Might and Magic, not heroes of might and more might.

I loved the variety of decks in DoC. I could play through T2 and T1 jackpot and face Mass Rage Recursion (Alia), then Mill, then Prison Lock, Fortune Aggro (Cassandra), Spell Control Recursion (Dhamiria), even Resurrection an OTK decks on occasion. The variety is crazy.

Playing base set is going to be playing against Creature tempo, then creature tempo, then creatures tempo again. It's a shame that DoC is sliding toward the pure creature combat that almost every other online TCG besides Magic favors. Way to lose your differentiating mark.

The only hope is going to be playing academy OTK and Akane recursion since bafflingly enough forked lightning was untouched.

R3ZZ_
02-07-2014, 10:40 PM
Dear developers,

These fix leads to a BERSERKER meta game.
You make weaker all styles of game. It leads to dominance of the creature based decks. But the rage decks is not fixed at all. They have mass rage and void wrath (best neutral creature without pao). Even now mass-rage decks have a great advantage versus creature based decks. Now creature decks start to dominate in early BS2 meta but they will destroyed by rage in short time. It will kill a game at all.

Please delete, void wrath. It is OP now. It is direct damage for rage decks without any chance to prevent/dispell it.

Doppel_Adler
02-07-2014, 10:43 PM
have I missed something?
will the requirements for e.g ignatius special ability stay the same?
in BS2 it will make no sense to skill up to 5 fortune since there are no 5 fortune cost fortunes, also the discard cards are less than now...

Banehollow89
02-07-2014, 10:47 PM
Thank you very much, Banehollow89.
It is quite strange mix both formats. And I can't see the advantage of standard format, with less cards, less possibilities, less strategies.

Best regards
gardier
Actually, there really aren't less possibilities. Sure there are less cards, but a lot of the most powerful cards were taken away, so now there are more options.

No more Fireballs, Shadow Images, Puppet Masters just to name a few, or Pao Deathseekers and Dark Assassins. Now that you don't have those that are "a must have in every deck of that type", you can choose between other stuff of the same cost, and those cards aren't really "clearly" better than others so you have a choice.

Standard format doesn't have advantage or disadvantage, it is just different format, the metagame will be different, you will see a ton of different decks, and almost none of them will be the same you see in Open format.

ThePlay4win
02-07-2014, 10:47 PM
Unique creatures:
Haven: Anael
Necropolis: Atropos
Sanctuary: Raya
Stronghold: Zefiria
Academy: Nur

AAAAAND
Inferno: Doom bringer

I think this is terrible for inferno. Doom bringer is valid card for certain situations, but not nearly as powerful as other uniques of BS2. Give us Hikyu please!

calamarybbq
02-07-2014, 10:50 PM
somehow I feel like there are many information missing. I have the following questions :

-Will BS2 be the only pack/box you can buy in the shop or will BS1 still be available? (looks like the answer is no but I want a confirmation)

-Since it has been announced that all achievements that involve soon-to-be out of print cards will be trash canned, will there be new achievements? will they mirror the previously existing one? (how to get alternate Seria art for example)

-Will the wild card cost of out of print cards evolve? (either up or down)

-Will the wild card cost of soon-to-be BS2 cards evolve? (either up or down)

-Did you guys sell alt art Ishuma for 3000 seals on purpose , knowing that he would not cut it to BS2? Was that what you called "experimenting" with new practices in the shop?

I have mixed feelings about this BS2 so far. The way cards have been picked up in BS2 makes me think of a russian roulette session...

EndlessRamble
02-07-2014, 10:50 PM
Actually, there really aren't less possibilities. Sure there are less cards, but a lot of the most powerful cards were taken away, so now there are more options.

No more Fireballs, Shadow Images, Puppet Masters just to name a few, or Pao Deathseekers and Dark Assassins. Now that you don't have those that are "a must have in every deck of that type", you can choose between other stuff of the same cost, and those cards aren't really "clearly" better than others so you have a choice.

Standard format doesn't have advantage or disadvantage, it is just different format, the metagame will be different, you will see a ton of different decks, and almost none of them will be the same you see in Open format.

Actually there are less options now. Many entire archetypes of decks such as stall, mill, and fortune control are completely removed from the metagame. You might see cards you didn't see before but the variety of decks WILL go down because their playstyle is simply no longer supported.

taijibear
02-07-2014, 10:51 PM
One thing really jumps out at me is creature having two separate "type" lines, with shooter, magic etc right under the image, and then the other types in the text box.

The Magic Schools appearing as text are particularly jarring, as there are already icons for those.

The balancing approach of simply removing the most key cards seems a little... hasty.

However I still think the game needed a consolidation of the pretty large card set, and there will inevitably be an interesting meta with the new cards. Looking forward to testing this.

Searon3
02-07-2014, 10:53 PM
Magic has a pretty good system. Include the last 2 sets in open format. This keeps the meta changing and keeps people buying cards. It's funner because of constant change but is harder because you cannot trade for a new deck.

rodneyleavins
02-07-2014, 11:00 PM
I think if a living card game want balance, it should bring new cards and new strategies, not drop them out. Of course people don't like it, their options are getting decreased. And i don't understand many of the decisions here, like dropping out broken bridge what is exactly about creature placement and maneuver, what seems to get the focus here. The only good things i see are the new creature types, what can give some cool new stuff in the future, and maybe the new user interface, but we will see.

Midst
02-07-2014, 11:01 PM
I would be most interested in this. Feedback.

Fleischgel
02-07-2014, 11:02 PM
Can't get it why people celebrating this.

Splitting the game into several formats is just a joke. Cutting most of the expensivst and best cards out of half the game is the next big joke. Playing with BS 2 feels like the game has just released. Releasing in a couple of weeks after BS 2 the next Expansion with for sure AMANZING strong cards...priceless.

Calling this package AWESOME and "the game needs it in this way" is way too much.

Urthel
02-07-2014, 11:04 PM
I and my friends are leaving this game. All decision making from quite long time is crap. The new system is even worse. Also they hate being criticised and don't want to hear anything.

Kinetic_42
02-07-2014, 11:04 PM
Keep in mind that for every given hero they will have access maybe 1-2 of those cards. With how efficient many creatures still are the disparity between spells/fortunes and creatures is enormous. Air magic you'll have no viable spells until FOUR magic. Fire magic has firebolt and WHOA FIREBLAST. Water Magic has Geyser then the abyss, Light Magic has tears. Only shadow still has any semblance of strength. Fortunes, what fortunes? I guess I can favorite spell for ice spikes, talk about efficiency, be still my beating heart.

I thought this was based on Heroes of Might and Magic, not heroes of might and more might.

I loved the variety of decks in DoC. I could play through T2 and T1 jackpot and face Mass Rage Recursion (Alia), then Mill, then Prison Lock, Fortune Aggro (Cassandra), Spell Control Recursion (Dhamiria), even Resurrection an OTK decks on occasion. The variety is crazy.

Playing base set is going to be playing against Creature tempo, then creature tempo, then creatures tempo again. It's a shame that DoC is sliding toward the pure creature combat that almost every other online TCG besides Magic favors. Way to lose your differentiating mark.

The only hope is going to be playing academy OTK and Akane recursion since bafflingly enough forked lightning was untouched.

Keep in mind, this is a BASE set. There will be many more cards added. You are asking for a new City right away. Instead, you're looking at the foundation to the first building and going "This isn't enough for a city".

Of course not.

Let them build the first building first, and add a few more (expansions) buildings, and then you'll have a NEW city, maybe a BETTER city. It's much easier to clear the land and create something new from a good foundation, rather than try and build the new city on top of the old one.


Magic has a pretty good system. Include the last 2 sets in open format. This keeps the meta changing and keeps people buying cards. It's funner because of constant change but is harder because you cannot trade for a new deck.

I agree with this. I think the issue here is they created those sets without having this plan for a rotation, got to Base Set 2 and realized... well ****, we need to rotate. Because of that, the last two sets (one of which introduced Academy) were not prepared to be kept in the rotation. Imagine Academy, in virtually all its glory, coming directly into the new Meta. It would be overpowered. Completely overpowered.

I think, moving forward, that should DEFINITELY be something the team does. If only because it makes complete sense. But I understand why it wasn't done here.

minddrifter
02-07-2014, 11:05 PM
I like the changes. If what I am understanding is correct it basically seems like it will be easier to play a competitive deck without spending a ton more money. I don't know how I feel about the whole creature/type thing, it could end up being very good or very bad...we will see. What I look forward to a lot is a change and revamp to the ELO system (although I don't think they said that would be in the BS2 update).

Vengyre
02-07-2014, 11:08 PM
Oh god, what a crap.
Every game will become a nobrainer "midrange creature facing midrange creature"
Alia and Zardoc will smack everyone with their abilities.
I hoped it would affect only base set, but it affected everything.
At least 1k elo idiots whining about opness of stall/control/mill will be satisfied.
Removal of Ishuma is the biggest trolling ever, gj guys, buy those alts more.

blades026
02-07-2014, 11:09 PM
It is my opinion, along with numerous others that if you do not retain the available BS1 packs, this will effectively kill Legacy Format. Any person wanting to play legacy/buying cards from BS1 would only be able to obtain them at very slow rate since currently it is only possible to obtain via altar of wishes. This in turn will lead to less people playing legacy as a "viable" or deck they had in mind would be too time-consuming to obtain as well as cost inefficient. Thus if BS1 packs are removed legacy format will eventually die.

planeswalker17
02-07-2014, 11:12 PM
It is my opinion, along with numerous others that if you do not retain the available BS1 packs, this will effectively kill Legacy Format. Any person wanting to play legacy/buying cards from BS1 would only be able to obtain them at very slow rate since currently it is only possible to obtain via altar of wishes. This in turn will lead to less people playing legacy as a "viable" or deck they had in mind would be too time-consuming to obtain as well as cost inefficient. Thus if BS1 packs are removed legacy format will eventually die.
From what i understood, they might remove everything from the shop and leave only BS2.

EndlessRamble
02-07-2014, 11:12 PM
Keep in mind, this is a BASE set. There will be many more cards added. You are asking for a new City right away. Instead, you're looking at the foundation to the first building and going "This isn't enough for a city".

Of course not.

Let them build the first building first, and add a few more (expansions) buildings, and then you'll have a NEW city, maybe a BETTER city. It's much easier to clear the land and create something new from a good foundation, rather than try and build the new city on top of the old one.


Excuse me if I am not bubbling over in enthusiasm that I have to spend countless more gold/seals for the next expansion coming 'very soon' after Base Set 2 just for a chance to play the deck styles I enjoy. Yes the base set is only setting a 'foundation' for the future direction, but when your entire foundation basically is focused on creatures and more creatures, I would say it sends a pretty clear message about where their priorities are. Practically every online TCG besides Magic focuses on smashing creatures into each other, now I have to add DoC to the list as well.

I don't understand why cards like Broken Bridge, Lightning Strike, or Fireball where removed on top of nearly all the mass removal. More tactical combat? Seems like this promotes the opposite as there is no reason not to stack up as many creatures as you can as fast as you can.

Korbac7
02-07-2014, 11:13 PM
I like the changes. Will definitely add more variety to the game. People who like open will be able to play open. People who like BS2 will be able to play BS2. Everyone is happy.

The only thing I am concerned about is removing BS1 cards from the shop. Jason on the stream said that BOTH game formats will be promoted equally. This means that BS1 cards should be obtainable as easily as BS2 cards.

Ussoro
02-07-2014, 11:15 PM
Xorm should be switched out with Dhimeria, Phrias, should be added in as well, since his gift fortune card is in there.

ElkazFATE
02-07-2014, 11:15 PM
If i have Zafira(for example) from forgotten wars could i play her in new format, or i have to get her from BS2?

Banehollow89
02-07-2014, 11:16 PM
Xorm should be switched out with Dhimeria, Phrias, should be added in as well, since his gift fortune card is in there.

Yeah Xorm and Phrias instead of Dhamiria and Ignatius sounds good, I don't know, Ignatius doesn't seem that viable with the current fortunes and I think everyone saw enough of Dhamiria in Base Set 1.

Vengyre
02-07-2014, 11:16 PM
IWill definitely add more variety to the game.
No-brainer creature smash is not a variety.

blades026
02-07-2014, 11:17 PM
From what i understood, they might remove everything from the shop and leave only BS2.

yeah thats what i'm saying if they remove everything they'll practically be killing legacy mode

planeswalker17
02-07-2014, 11:19 PM
If anyone is curious from which expansions the cards were picked from, here's my card excel listing with BS2 cards marked in orange.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgNFFzJpBmkxdDY0TnZhR0pfQUJYMmJqaVVSeVlaS Wc&usp=drive_web#gid=0

Banehollow89
02-07-2014, 11:22 PM
If i have Zafira(for example) from forgotten wars could i play her in new format, or i have to get her from BS2?
As far as I know, no, you won't need another one.

Razyda
02-07-2014, 11:36 PM
As in title, game will look like checkers.

Also - great job leaving shredder and war tent, there wont even be a meta, everyone will play Stronghold.

WitchBlood2653
02-07-2014, 11:43 PM
Yeah we still can play all cards in open format but...
The main question is: Difference in rewards from "open"/"base set 2" matches...?

KoT1eTA
02-07-2014, 11:46 PM
So instead of balancing the game Ubisoft basically removed every single deck type except creature aggro. And no new cards at all? Really? Good job ubi good job.

crocolikee94
02-07-2014, 11:47 PM
So ariana op...? who can try a bs2 ariana and post a deck? should i spend all my seal for bs2?

punkUser
02-07-2014, 11:48 PM
Practically every online TCG besides Magic focuses on smashing creatures into each other, now I have to add DoC to the list as well.
That's a leading statement with little more utility than "every TCG focuses on playing cards to beat your opponent". Your implicitly trying to imply that the "depth" in DoC was in the various of creatureless/lite decks - while ignoring all of the unique creature mechanics themselves that are currently irrelevant - just because that's what "you like to play". Positioning, lanes and melee/shooters are core mechanics of DoC that are barely exercised right now beyond minimizing damage from removal spells. Counters, buffs/debuffs, etc. are all in the same space: they are mostly irrelevant in many matchups.

Just try and understand that many people disagree that ignoring the board/creatures and just playing the same few stall cards over and over isn't exactly the height of "variety", despite making up names for all of the variations of that, then lumping everything that uses creatures into a single "variety". If you find the current meta fun, great, that's why there's still open.



I don't understand why cards like Broken Bridge, Lightning Strike, or Fireball where removed on top of nearly all the mass removal. More tactical combat? Seems like this promotes the opposite as there is no reason not to stack up as many creatures as you can as fast as you can.
On this point I don't really disagree with you. In particular I'm not sure why broken bridge is gone... seems like a a relatively interesting card and without Paos the brainless combo is gone for most races. Perhaps they're concerned about recuring "when played" effects, but I don't really see any of the current ones as being a huge deal, perhaps outside of atropos, and that's not a cheap one to do.

taijibear
02-07-2014, 11:54 PM
I don't agree that this step is away from complexity, but rather towards interaction.

Many of the mill/OTK decks moved too far away from playing the same game as a lot of the players, to the point where the only interaction was between one player's events and the other's strategy.

They should introduce it carefully, slowly: the players are an immense playtesting powerblock to see how it will work.

Ussoro
02-07-2014, 11:58 PM
I'm a bit sad that Ravager has been removed.

malkorion
02-07-2014, 11:59 PM
Is this the final list? Are you going to change it until March?

S0YxSauCe
02-08-2014, 12:01 AM
finally a real banlist.... good job to the dev... this will make our meta more exciting =D

when they say base set 1 and base set 2 I actually confuse... this is actually a banlist.. like the yugioh where every 6 months they will format change and some card will be banned or semi limited or limited...

this is great... I remember when I was ruling the meta with gladiator beast .. so many memory... yugioh online. ;)

KoT1eTA
02-08-2014, 12:01 AM
I don't agree that this step is away from complexity, but rather towards interaction.

Many of the mill/OTK decks moved too far away from playing the same game as a lot of the players, to the point where the only interaction was between one player's events and the other's strategy.

They should introduce it carefully, slowly: the players are an immense playtesting powerblock to see how it will work.

so introduce viable counters to them bring in some sort of counterspells/counterfortunes/interrupts/instances which can be used during your opponent turn to counter the effect of the card, but don't just remove them.

EndlessRamble
02-08-2014, 12:05 AM
That's a leading statement with little more utility than "every TCG focuses on playing cards to beat your opponent". Your implicitly trying to imply that the "depth" in DoC was in the various of creatureless/lite decks - while ignoring all of the unique creature mechanics themselves that are currently irrelevant - just because that's what "you like to play". Positioning, lanes and melee/shooters are core mechanics of DoC that are barely exercised right now beyond minimizing damage from removal spells. Counters, buffs/debuffs, etc. are all in the same space: they are mostly irrelevant in many matchups.

Just try and understand that many people disagree that ignoring the board/creatures and just playing the same few stall cards over and over isn't exactly the height of "variety", despite making up names for all of the variations of that, then lumping everything that uses creatures into a single "variety". If you find the current meta fun, great, that's why there's still open.


I play just as much aggro as I do control. I don't like how half that equation is getting rocked so hard. Positioning, lanes, and melee/shooters where very important already, try playing the kelthor/cassandra matchup and say differently. However when you don't have strong spells/fortunes to back up your play all those considerations like broken bridge, fireball, realignment, forbidden flame into vultures, clogging lines to prevent song of the lost, etc become moot and the matchup becomes a stale slugfest. Take out paos and impactful spells/fortunes out and creature games are just matches of rock 'em sock 'em robots with both sides slugging back and forth trying to get as many creatures to stick on the board as possible.

Let's not talk about one of the most enjoyable parts of playing card games for many people, the metagame. When creating your deck you have to think about different matchups against stalls, fortune decks, spell decks, on top of creatures. Building your deck is infinitely more boring when you know your enemy will have basically one strategy, smash your face with creatures. I think the 'depth' in Doc definitely WAS the various creatureless/lite decks, their existence made for an environment very different from a lot of other online offerings such as hearthstone. Without their existence DoC gameplay is very vanilla creature combat. You say now positioning and lanes will now be key, I say that is ridiculous when they have removed so many cards that promote intelligent positioning; even innocuous ones like sunburst.

taijibear
02-08-2014, 12:09 AM
so introduce viable counters to them bring in some sort of counterspells/counterfortunes/interrupts/instances which can be used during your opponent turn to counter the effect of the card, but don't just remove them.

They listed the cards getting removed from just the new base set, not the game as a whole, and even stated that they will continue to tweak Open cards. So there seems to be a lot of scope in tweaking troublesome cards in Open, have them even battle tested in tournaments by players, and if the right balance point is found, bringing it into Standard as part of a future expansion.

I think a lot of the older players would enjoy when a chase rare in a new set is one they already have from the early days of the game.

JeditOjanen8
02-08-2014, 12:09 AM
Excuse me if I am not bubbling over in enthusiasm that I have to spend countless more gold/seals for the next expansion coming 'very soon' after Base Set 2 just for a chance to play the deck styles I enjoy.

How exactly does this differ from any other set release? A new set comes out, the meta shifts, you have to buy cards if you want to keep up. That's why it's called a CCG.

EndlessRamble
02-08-2014, 12:16 AM
How exactly does this differ from any other set release? A new set comes out, the meta shifts, you have to buy cards if you want to keep up. That's why it's called a CCG.

Base set 2 has almost no card support for the type of decks I was arguing about. That means you will have to spend seals on the next expansion to play it at all and close to none of your previous pre-BS2 cards are playable. Whereas with creature decks Base Set 2 already has such a strong bias toward them that most of your old cards from 'open' will still be playable and you'll likely only need a few power cards from the new expansion (like when 5T released).

KoT1eTA
02-08-2014, 12:16 AM
They listed the cards getting removed from just the new base set, not the game as a whole, and even stated that they will continue to tweak Open cards. So there seems to be a lot of scope in tweaking troublesome cards in Open, have them even battle tested in tournaments by players, and if the right balance point is found, bringing it into Standard as part of a future expansion.

I think a lot of the older players would enjoy when a chase rare in a new set is one they already have from the early days of the game.

The problem is that this "just the new base set" is gonna remain "just the new base set" for the next 4-5 months, and considering that there won't be any changes in legacy, and new standard will be play as aggro against aggro all day every day, this sounds as a horrible perspective.

del170109032657
02-08-2014, 12:20 AM
The problem is that this "just the new base set" is gonna remain "just the new base set" for the next 4-5 months, and considering that there won't be any changes in legacy, and new standard will be play as aggro against aggro all day every day, this sounds as a horrible perspective.

Next 4-5 months? I don't remember us saying that on the stream. That's quite the assumption!

We announced during the stream that we are already working on the first expansion to the new base set. One step at a time.

L0rnCyador
02-08-2014, 12:25 AM
So you've kept all the BS Weenies that Academy has?

Heh, you don't need a Crystal BallI to predict which Faction will Dominate the Standard Meta.

Good Job, Ubi. /s

Bazaltovy
02-08-2014, 12:28 AM
As guys said during the stream - Open format is made for the old players, new Base Set is made for new players.

New players wouldn't get mechanics like mill or OTK that easily. Base sets are usually tools to a) reinvent the wheel and shift the meta b) make the game more accessible for newbies.

Time will come for expansions and more complex ideas to be introduced for sure.

On the other hand, I started playing Ignatius today, and I'd really love to see him in discard build in BS2 as well... Oh well, you can't have everything.

PS. I understand 90% of choices. What bothers me: 1) underpowering Haven (again), 2) getting rid of SO MANY FORTUNES. Some of them were actually helpful in decks other then stall/combo!

Kangl0r
02-08-2014, 12:33 AM
I think the 'depth' in Doc definitely WAS the various creatureless/lite decks, their existence made for an environment very different from a lot of other online offerings such as hearthstone. Without their existence DoC gameplay is very vanilla creature combat. You say now positioning and lanes will now be key, I say that is ridiculous when they have removed so many cards that promote intelligent positioning; even innocuous ones like sunburst.

Agree with this so much, I've only been playing a couple months now, but the reason I went with DoC over HS was it allowed decks closer to the control style ones I enjoyed from Magic. I actually like the idea of Formats, I just don't care for how it seems to have gutted the variety of decks. I'm guessing this was done at least partially to appease those players that enjoy the Hearthstone experience, except I don't see why anyone would choose this game for that type game play, just having rows doesn't add nearly enough to make a difference. Maybe the next expansion will re-introduce some of the old deck concepts, but if not, will have Hex to look forward to later this year.

Lorkak
02-08-2014, 12:38 AM
As guys said during the stream - Open format is made for the old players, new Base Set is made for new players.

New players wouldn't get mechanics like mill or OTK that easily. Base sets are usually tools to a) reinvent the wheel and shift the meta b) make the game more accessible for newbies.

Time will come for expansions and more complex ideas to be introduced for sure.

On the other hand, I started playing Ignatius today, and I'd really love to see him in discard build in BS2 as well... Oh well, you can't have everything.

PS. I understand 90% of choices. What bothers me: 1) underpowering Haven (again), 2) getting rid of SO MANY FORTUNES. Some of them were actually helpful in decks other then stall/combo!

How are we supposed to keep playing BS1 if we have no access to the cards anymore except by WC? You should NOT remove the current packs and boxes from the shop, why would you do that?

L0rnCyador
02-08-2014, 12:43 AM
They kept Dhamira? Seriously?

They removed Adar, Kelthor, Ishuma, etc. and yet, one of the Darlings of the Current Meta gets to stay on? I thought Base Set 2's Plan, was to shift it to a new one?

Why can't Inferno get Belias or Phrias instead? I'm Level 60+ and I've yet to face Phrias, and the only Belias I've fought are Bots.

You gotta wonder sometimes, on the Thought-Process of the Devs here. This would have been the perfect opportunity for another Inferno Hero to get the Spotlight. But nope, it's got to be the Boob-Wonder.

taijibear
02-08-2014, 12:46 AM
Next 4-5 months? I don't remember us saying that on the stream. That's quite the assumption!

We announced during the stream that we are already working on the first expansion to the new base set. One step at a time.

Any chance we could get a dedicated Base Set 2 sub-forum? There is a wild multitude of threads spawning all over, and with the upcoming testing and deck ideas endemic to the future format, would be handy.

DowantasaurusRe
02-08-2014, 12:47 AM
Hello. I've been playing Might and Magic: Duels of Champions for approximately 3 months. I've been having a great time and found it much more palatable to SolForge, Infinity Wars, HEX, and Hearthstone. That being said, I'm having trouble mustering enthusiasm for this announcement. I'll try to be as concise as possible, but in the interest of presenting my case I'm going to try to support my argument as best as I can. I'm going to talk about Base Set 2, the monetization model of the game itself, and what I think the game needs in order to survive.

Let's start off by talking about Base Set 2. My initial reaction was "Great! A new set!" It was the first new set announced since I began playing. Unfortunately, my optimism was quickly reduced when it was announced that Base Set 2 would be comprised entirely of cards already "in print". While I'm pleased that I'll be able to continue using my cards in Legacy as well as the functional reprints in Standard, I started to ask myself why would Ubisoft release an expansion of nothing but old cards? I cannot, for the life of me, find a satisfactory answer.

Firstly, it doesn't make much sense from a business perspective. Magic: The Gathering releases core sets once a year, and they usually include some new cards among the slew of reprints. For some reason, Ubisoft did not. For new players of the game, this is a good opportunity for them to grow their collection through the new Base Set 2 acheivment system and possibly be competitive now that a good deal of the staple Legendary cards have been excised from the game. Unfortunately, it doesn't offer hardly an incentives whatsoever to what we're going to refer to as the "hardcore player base" of the game. These are the people that have stuck with it for a long time now and already have play sets of practically everything. They have little to gain from investing in Base Set 2.

So who will buy Base Set 2? New players, of course. Unfortunately, Base Set 2, in my opinion, was ill-timed in its release. They should have released Base Set 2 to fall in line with the game becoming available on steam. I'm sure if we had access to their demographics we would see that the population of the game more than likely experienced a dramatic influx of new players, and has over time fallen to what was more than likely their baseline before their steam launch. A lot of this is guess work, but not necessarily blind guess work. If you ever have time, you should watch a presentation from Kevin Perry of MIcrosoft Studios, the Executive Producer of Age of Empires Online. It's appropriately titled "Free to Play the Wrong Way" (http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1019303/F2P-the-Wrong-Way-Age), and I think that it may shed some insight on the state of Might and Magic: Duel of Champions.

In many cases a new player will try out a game and after a bit of playing will decide whether they're going to stick with it. Some will get frustrated at being beaten by people who have large collections and either leave or invest money into the game. There is always a small percentage of people who are willing to not invest anything but their time. Dissatisfied players are unlikely to return after they've made their judgment of the game. Some may come back when they hear a big patch has changed things around, but surely this is small in comparison to those who never come back. If we had access to these demographics, we would probably see that the player base spikes with the release of a new expansion before returning to a baseline.

With that explained, this was probably not the best time to have released Base Set 2. Rather than trying to rekindle interest in the game through a "reset", I think that maybe their time would have been better spent had they developed a new format such as Limited. After all, Base Set 2 only changes the meta. The game mode is still entirely the same. A new mechanic has been added, but ultimately it's going to be the same old bowl of soup. Just less interesting because the card pool is now a fraction of what it once was, and many of the interesting cards have been removed.

Please understand, that I believe that there should be different formats like Legacy, and Standard, or Vintage, or whatever you call it. Cycling the card pool is a good way to keep the game interesting, as well as keeping the players shelling out cash for new cards. There are only three reasons that I can possibly think of that Ubisoft did not include new cards in Base Set 2:

1. They're on a shoestring budget and rather than develop an entire set, they simply shoved out one of reprints to cut back on development costs. This would be out of necessity rather than desire, as I'm sure they only have so much available to them from the parent company to work on projects.
2. They're lazy and thought this would fix everything without having to do much work. This is pretty unlikely. Despite the callous attitude that many Ubisoft employees have shown for their fans in the past, I genuinely do not believe that this was the case.
3. They thought that releasing a new Base Set to create a new format with new cards would alienate the old timers that have been with the game for a long time, or appear to be a cheap way to force people to dump a ton of money in order to try out the new format. In this case, it would be for reasons of accessibility and not wanting to screw over the people who've kept the game going up until now. I think this is the best choice of the three I've presented.

I'm not sure how much it would have cost to create a Limited Format. I've heard that the developers have stated that "it's impossible". I don't think that's true physically, but it might be impossible fiscally. In "Free to Play the Wrong Way", Kevin reveals that it cost more money in man-hours and development time to produce a new civilization (which is very much similar to a new set in M&M) than the players spent when it was released due to a small population of players. We may be approaching a time where there isn't much of a sustainable population to make it feasible to dump a gigantic portion of money into creating an entire new mode of play and engine to appease a player base in decline.

Which brings us to monetization. Ubisoft has been very generous about promo codes. Packs are fairly easy to obtain through regular play. But once you've dumped around 200-300 bucks into the game, you usually have almost everything available. So then what do you spend your money on? Well, there's not much to spend money on. Kevin describes this situation as putting a cap on the possible money that a player can spend. It suggests that once you spend a certain amount of cash, you've capped out and gotten everything you can out of the game. I estimate this to be around 300-400 USD. I've dropped maybe 250-300 and I have nearly everything. Boosts then become useless, as do purchasing individual packs. A surplus of seals and gold begins to accumulate due to there not being effective ways of draining cash (think about how much gold you may have spent in World of Warcraft on repairs: this was a way to make it to where players couldn't just accumulate endless amounts of money). Even if base set 2 did contain a bunch of new stuff, I'm betting that a lot of the old timers out there have more than enough seals to purchase a sizable chunk of packs.

So how do we solve this? You need to remove the limitation of how much money a player can spend on the game. Let's take the new Ishuma Alternate Art card. It was a gorgeous piece of art, but priced at a hefty $50 USD - and only for an extremely limited time. It would have made more sense, in my opinion, to offer it at a lower price point and make it a regular fixture in the shop. Hell, do a whole series of them. It can't be that expensive to pump out a single card and charge 15-20 bucks for it like a skin in League of Legends. It's probably much cheaper than say, designing an entire set in the hopes that it will renew interest in the game and boost revenue. Maybe create a system where you can spend seals to make a card of your choice "foil". You would be surprised how far enthusiasts will go to "pimp out" their deck. Since there is no reliable way to accrue foils due to a lack of third party, or even first party, vendors, this would be a way that people could spend some cash to get something that they want.

These are just a few examples. I'm sure that if Ubisoft put their heads together, or maybe looked at other games with a free to play model for inspiration, they could find a way to curb inflation and maybe even make some money off the game. As a consumer, I hate having to spend more money than I have to, but I could only imagine what it would be like to be a developer and spending more money than you're making. It's okay to bleed us a little guys, I promise. There is a point where you can be TOO GENEROUS.

So here we are. The end of my tirade that makes a lot, and I do mean A LOT of assumptions. Before we close out, I want to remind you all that I want this game to succeed. I do not have access to their figures or anything else, and I don't want to shout fire in a crowded theater. With as little as I actually know about the behind the scenes, for all I know they could be making money hand over fist. But for some reason I don't think that's the case. Here are some suggestions that I'm sure every single person who works at Ubisoft marketing has already thought about:

1. Create a new game mode. Preferably some form of limited so that you can draw in all the people that have stayed away because of the competitive nature of constructed.
2. Create new opportunities for your players to spend money. There are people out there that are perfectly happy dumping absurd amounts of money on vanity items. Make them, for God's sake. DO NOT LIMIT the amount of money that a consumer can spend on your game: this is suicide in business. To whomever may ask "But DowantasaurusRe, why would you want them to get more money?" If they get more money, hopefully it'll trickle down into new features. This is obvious to some people, but for the sake of clarity and avoiding any embarrassing questions, there's your answer.
3. Grow the player base. I know you guys use facebook, twitter, twitch, etc. You're trying your best. You may even be sitting at 0 marketing budget from Ubisoft. For all I know, Base Set 2 could be the start of that, but as I said I think that the window of opportunity for a truly successful "relaunch" may have passed. Shepherding your resources and nourishing the community is a great way to try to get money back into the company. Maybe more Ubisoft sponsored big tournaments with prizes would be nice or a stronger attempt at legitimizing it as an e-sport.

That's all I got. Thanks if you managed to slog through this, and I'm sorry if I repeated any points too many times or came off as patronizing. I know you guys are trying hard, but for some reason Base Set 2 just sort of leaves a bad taste in my mouth and makes me think of the things I wished it had been instead. For all I know, I could be an isolated case. I think it's worth repeating the following:

1. A new format IS NOT a bad thing. It just might have been better if it had been handled differently.
2. I love this game and want it to continue so that I don't lose my *** on it. That and it's fun.
3. I could be part of an extremely small vocal minority. Kevin talks about that in his presentation, too. For all I know, there may not be a leak in the boat at all.
4. I am not an expert on business, economics, or anything remotely related to marketing. This is probably all-too evident to someone that is.
5. To the players, everyone can do their part by trying to drum up enthusiasm for Might and Magic. As tired and cliche as it is, do your best to get your friends interested. The game relies heavily on word of mouth.

I'm done now. Thank you for your time. Sorry if I wasted your time. There will be a part 2 that adds my thoughts on the card pool itself as soon as I can make a heads or tails of it.

Lorkak
02-08-2014, 12:56 AM
Leave Base Set 2 ONLY for new players, once you are level lets say 20, you can (if you want) move to the normal set of cards which include the cards that make DOC fun

NicWester
02-08-2014, 01:07 AM
My first post, hurrah. Anyway, I have only a few minor quibbles:

Haven
Imperial Guard
Imperial Crossbowman
Loyal Griffin
Radiant Glory
Elite Squire
Wolf Praetorian
Wolf Justicar
Griffin Marksman
Griffin Knight
Griffin Battle Priest
Angel of Mercy
Crusader Commander
Crusader Watchman
Crusader Treasurer
Scattershot Marksman
Crusader Chaplain
Anael, Angel of Redemption
Crusader Sergeant
Vindicator
Crusader Vanguard
The removal of Imperial Sentinel is a surprise. Holy Praetorian was a little strong for his cost, so I'm not surprised by that. But 1/1/2 with Melee Guard 1 was a solid creature without being too strong. Meanwhile Imperial Crossbowman is just... Blegh. Not good. Goblin Scout is eminently playable because it can do respectable damage at the cost of survivability; but Imperial Crossbowman has both no damage and no survivability. It's literally the worst of both worlds :P It can barely scratch the paint on any creature that sees play--even in the new format--and will get destroyed by any spell or creature in the game. I'm pretty sure that if I glared at the card hard enough it would die. Sentinel isn't much stronger, but provides a little utility beyond its meagre stats. This creates an unfortunate circumstance where Haven has no playable 1-drop. Not even as a chump blocker. Compare this to Scholar (Magic Channel for utility, 3 HP and spell resist for survivability), and the 2/1/2 creatures and Haven is behind from the start without anything to compensate. So I would very strongly suggest swapping the two.


Haven

Kieran
Cassandra, Seeker of Light
Alia, Caller of Faith
Morgan
Errrghghghg.... First the good thing, I adore Alia. So thanks for putting her in the new base set, that's great. But Kieran is just bad... There's no upside to her. Light isn't a particularly strong school, especially now that Sunburst is going away, and while Prime is useful it's nothing spectacular. So you've got two mediocre schools of magic and an ability that might do one damage every couple games. The upshot is 2 Might and 1 Magic to start, but... Erph. It's just not worth it. One of my biggest regrets was shelling out 21 Wildcards for him (her?) early on. I would suggest Sigfried as the 2 Might hero.


Fire

Immolation
Fire Bolt
Fire Shield
Inner Fire
Fiery Death
Fire Blast
Mass Rage
Lava Stream
Soulfire
No Fireball? Isn't there a law somewhere that if you have a game involving magic you have to have a Fireball spell? Fireball is so common a term that spellcheck isn't even telling me it's not a word. Fire seems like a natural school for removal via damage (instead of Dark's removal by erasure) but has only two direct damage spells in Fire Bolt and Fire Blast. That just doesn't seem right... You kinda-sorta get removal with Soulfire if you cast it on a big creature, and that REALLY doesn't seem right to me :P


Light

Bless
Cleansing Light
Divine Intervention
Martyr
Guardian Angel
Aura of Healing
Lay of Hands
Elrath's Protection
Chain Heal
The problem with Light is that healing is and always will be weaker than damage. Any decent player kills a creature in one turn, leaving healing useless unless cast on your turn to erase Retaliation damage (and there are plenty of ways to negate Retaliation damage in the first place, from ranged attackers to waiting to attack with melee last). I'm not sure I like that Sunburst was dropped for two reasons:
1) It was the only direct offense the school had.
2) It was kind of silly, in a good way. The fact that it could nuke your own guys made it unique.

Falux79
02-08-2014, 01:10 AM
This is crazy.

Base Set 2 is basically hearthstone where you just bash creatures against each other.
All mass removal except insect swarm has been removed.
Many efficient point removals have been removed like lightning strike.
Almost every played fortune has been cut.
All key mill cards have been removed

So basically just play something slow and grindy with creatures like Stronghold or Necro because nothing else is going to be viable.

Or maybe you have to adapt the playstyle with the card you have now (and remember that you can still play the legacy mode).

I remember when 5Tower went out, all crying that the set was underpower and the meta will not change by a bit... and after some time we have a lot of powerful deck with 5T card in there.....

taijibear
02-08-2014, 01:11 AM
I started to ask myself why would Ubisoft release an expansion of nothing but old cards? I cannot, for the life of me, find a satisfactory answer.

Releasing a base set of existing cards allows players to continue buying packs right now, before the new set is out. They now know what is going to be in, and will burn WCs to create BS2 legal decks, or target key uncommons/rares/uniques to try and get through packs. Additionally, as you alluded to yourself, the specific choice of cards could relate to the needs of a new format (drafting), and they can much easier build a functional draft format with cards that are relatively well known, instead of re-inventing the game completely. A similar faction-heavy game I played (Legend of the Five Rings) for many years claimed that draft was impossible, but eventually jumped into it by releasing what would translate to a generic two-faction hero, which allows you to nominate two factions you are representing, and use cards from either. This not only allowed draft to work, but actually created fascinating unique card interactions that only work in that environment.

I agree that for best monetisation vanity is the way to go, with custom heroes, card backs (how cool would it be to have sleeves for your cards?), etc. but I would also like to see optional subscriptions, where for a set fee I could get X tournament tickets/boosters per month/week. Could get more people sign up if it is presented as a good value, and increase long-term attachment. But I am also not sure if it's a bad thing to have a cap of $300 investment or so, especially when it will still have you buying the next set. Even keeps them incentivised to keep releasing things.

lallous222
02-08-2014, 01:15 AM
no more kelthor?? no more sandalphon? if they say base set 2 will be very competitive, then i'm really looking forward to see how this game is gonna be shaped when the expansion will be released!!

DowantasaurusRe
02-08-2014, 01:27 AM
But I am also not sure if it's a bad thing to have a cap of $300 investment or so, especially when it will still have you buying the next set. Even keeps them incentivised to keep releasing things.

That's a fine cap for collecting cards, sure. But my main point is that there is then nothing else to purchase. There's no vanity items. No way for people who are willing to pay more for fancy stuff to actually do it, and in doing so, they're hurting their potential gains. Bad business can make for a ruined game.

I'm really not all that upset about Base Set 2. Like any game that first starts out, which in ways this is, it's going to be a little boring initially due to a small card pool. I have no doubt that they'll expand on the card pool (although I'm not entirely sure I agree with the current one they've drafted) in the future, but for some reason I just don't feel particularly thrilled about it right now.

I usually don't involve myself with things like these, or even really care about stuff like business models. But for some reason Ubisofts seems so offensively bad that it just makes me wonder. I never thought I would see the day where I would complain that there's not enough to spend money on.

npavcec
02-08-2014, 01:29 AM
So, when is the actual update going to happen? Jason, I followed your stream for the first 30minutes or so, but somehow you failed to ask the major question. :D

BTW, I am a new player (playing aprox 2-3 weeks) and I have to say I am really looking forward for the update because I really enjoyed the first 5-6 days of my low-ELO gameplay experience where resource management, units positioning, moving and blocking played the big part of the gameplay strategy when compared to the 1000+ ELO games where most of the games are my deck (I am playing leach oriented necro) vs spell/events combo decks which are kicking my *** without even having more than 2 units on a battleground the whole battle and similar scenarios. :D I played couple of Ignatious battles and in one of them the dude never even put a monster out before scorching my sorry 1001ELO *** zero to 20.

p.s. Elephant, add me in-game! you too, JP, if possible. thanks! :D

malkorion
02-08-2014, 01:37 AM
So, when is the actual update going to happen? Jason, I followed your stream for the first 30minutes or so, but somehow you failed to ask the major question. :D

BTW, I am a new player (playing aprox 2-3 weeks) and I have to say I am really looking forward for the update because I really enjoyed the first 5-6 days of my low-ELO gameplay experience where resource management, units positioning, moving and blocking played the big part of the gameplay strategy when compared to the 1000+ ELO games where most of the games are my deck (I am playing leach oriented necro) vs spell/events combo decks which are kicking my *** without even having more than 2 units on a battleground the whole battle and similar scenarios. :D I played couple of Ignatious battles and in one of them the dude never even put a monster out before scorching my sorry 1001ELO *** zero to 20.

p.s. Elephant, add me in-game! you too, JP, if possible. thanks! :D

The update should happen late March.

NicWester
02-08-2014, 01:41 AM
Base set 2 has almost no card support for the type of decks I was arguing about. That means you will have to spend seals on the next expansion to play it at all and close to none of your previous pre-BS2 cards are playable. Whereas with creature decks Base Set 2 already has such a strong bias toward them that most of your old cards from 'open' will still be playable and you'll likely only need a few power cards from the new expansion (like when 5T released).

...Or you could just play Open?

shel37
02-08-2014, 01:51 AM
well........ the audience will never get pleased......

bwwuuuhhhh
02-08-2014, 02:01 AM
Hello, I have only read the FAQs on the first page and managed to watch the last 30 minutes of the Stream due to my timezone so please forgive me if any of these questions have already been answered.


New Formats. The first page mentioned 3 formats and described how they worked for Tournaments. How will they work for regular ranked duels? Will we had 2(3) separate ladders for each format? Will they use their own ELO ranking? ( i.e one ELO ranking for Open, one for standard etc )

Altar of Wishes. The FAQ said that it will no longer be possible to purchase BS1 cards from packs. Since the Altar of Wishes works by first have 200 cards from the Set, then unlocking the whole set in the Altar, how will new players get Shadow Image, if they cannot get 200 BS1 cards ( efficiently )?. Will BS1 cards be unlocked in the Altar immediately?

Altar of Wishes. Suppose I wish to unlock Raya in the Altar, do I need 200 BS2 cards? 200 FW cards? Both? Either?

Will all previous expansions still be available for gold purchase in the Shop ( VR, HotV, FW, 5T )?

Wildcard Pricing. Suppose I have unlocked Raya in the Altar. Will her price be comparable to other Uniques in BS2? ( atm, Raya = 21WC, Atropos = 8 WC ) Will wildcard costs be standardised?

The new UI. So far, I have only seen 1 screenshot and there are still large gaps on either side. I assume this is intentional. Will there an option ( on the PC ) to fill this void either by stretching or something else?

The FAQ states that the prizes for winning Swiss tournaments will be a pack of the latest expansion. It did not actually say if BS2 was classified as an expansion ( I know it doesnt actually expand anything ). Clarity would be great.

How does the Weekly Format work? What are the prizes for that? Entry fee?

Will there be new starter decks? ( I have not checked to see if current starter decks fall within BS2 ) One of Sanctuary? Academy?

Balance changes. The stream mentioned that cards from Standard and Open will receive tweaks. When can we expect a list of proposed changes?



Thank you for your time


--Regards, Llora

Quutar
02-08-2014, 02:11 AM
http://gifwall.net/gif/suksin.gif

ssyycc
02-08-2014, 02:35 AM
if you take a look, you will find that 1 is of 1 destiny requirement, the rest are with 3 destiny requirement. This means only Kat will consider using these destiny cards. This is just ridiculous.

kevinlk2010
02-08-2014, 02:44 AM
I have a big issue with this move from them.
I spent a lot of time and money getting some cards and now they wont be valid to play in standard format!

Sorry but Id like a refund on the seals I bought.

Added to that it seem they kept a LOT of cards that no one uses, Air trap for instance.
But they cut great cards that are not unbalanced instead.

Huh that makes no sense what so ever.

I started to play this game 2 months ago, and spent time and money on it. I feel it is a good idea to keep the game balanced, add some new card, change some old, that is ok.

But return the 6400 seals I bought! Cus when I bought the seals for the cards, i was not informed that some rare cards (wolf captian)can only be used for short time.

Though BS1 can still be used sometimes, i still feel being cheated by UBI.

kevinlk2010
02-08-2014, 03:02 AM
I started to play this game 2 months ago, and spent time and money on it. I feel it is a good idea to keep the game balanced, add some new card, change some old, that is ok. but return the 6400 seals I bought! Cus when I bought the seals for the cards, i was not informed that some rare cards (wolf captian)can only be used for short time.
Though BS1 can still be used sometimes, i still feel being cheated by UBI.http://v1.freep.cn/3tb_140208100114pokx512293.png

Tuttetutte
02-08-2014, 03:11 AM
Now common, I would like to ask in which monster card game does not have a magic card for Resurrection??

VampFury
02-08-2014, 03:17 AM
Edited my first post (first reply to this thread), so you guys can read my feedback if you like.

historicmuffin
02-08-2014, 03:25 AM
Will there be an option for us madmen who only want to play standard, to pit all our unplayable cards? (By unplayable, I mean unplayable in Standard).

Just for convenience?

bwwuuuhhhh
02-08-2014, 04:11 AM
I started to play this game 2 months ago, and spent time and money on it. I feel it is a good idea to keep the game balanced, add some new card, change some old, that is ok. but return the 6400 seals I bought! Cus when I bought the seals for the cards, i was not informed that some rare cards (wolf captian)can only be used for short time.
Though BS1 can still be used sometimes, i still feel being cheated by UBI.http://v1.freep.cn/3tb_140208100114pokx512293.png

But the cards you spent seals on arent obsolete, just play them in Open Format.



Will there be an option for us madmen who only want to play standard, to pit all our unplayable cards? (By unplayable, I mean unplayable in Standard).

Just for convenience?


I probably wouldn't do that as we do not know if the list of banned/permitted cards for the Standard Format will change in the future

planeswalker17
02-08-2014, 04:38 AM
I started to play this game 2 months ago, and spent time and money on it. I feel it is a good idea to keep the game balanced, add some new card, change some old, that is ok. but return the 6400 seals I bought! Cus when I bought the seals for the cards, i was not informed that some rare cards (wolf captian)can only be used for short time.
Though BS1 can still be used sometimes, i still feel being cheated by UBI.http://v1.freep.cn/3tb_140208100114pokx512293.png

And by "sometimes" you mean everyday, either in open format swisses or open format jackpots?

charleshassani
02-08-2014, 04:56 AM
]Since everyone went in with his opinion, here's mine, based on what we know as of now.

I like the idea of formats, eversince it went well in MTG, but I feel like it's a bit early for MMDoC tio get into it. For me the number of available cards is just too low to go straight ahead for such a system. I know there are more expansions to come, but still....

As for the card selection, a few things feel wrong. Locks / Control decks were often disliked for being too powerful blablabla. As an aggro deck player, I felt like these decks, while very annoying to face were stille ok. Best proof being the top decks in JP were more about Kelthors and co than these decks.
Even if something had to be done to balance these strategies, was it really necessary to erase it completely ?

Do we want a game where the only way to win is killing your opponent with your creature, and therefore the only playable archetype be aggro ? (that's to say at least in one format) Everyone can prefer one archetype over another, but in order to keep a game deep and strategically challenging, I feel like various archetypes should be playable.


As for factions, it's been said that Haven was going to be weak and stuff. I dont feel like Haven needs WC to be on an equal footage with other factions for their standard format creatures are more than ok. On the other hand, Haven main magic is light. When I look at that magic, the first thing I see is : there's no clean / bolts ! Heros gifted with light magic wont have access to bolts in this domain. Sure they'll have others, due to other magic schools, but look at it : there's not a lot left. Having none in a magic is hard, all the more when other spells arent that awesome so to compensate.

Sanctuary havent lost a lot of the creatures that made decks like Ishuma so strong. If it were for me I'll expect Yukiko aggro to become a strong deck.

Inferno kept a lot of good creatures, and also kept.... GATE TO SHEOGH ?! Yes there's less fatties to make appear, but in a format when the only way to deal with a worm is Soul Reaver, imagine your opponents face when you play it turn 4.....

Necro kept most of its creatures. The fact creatures like Banshee / Atropos / Decay spitter are still in the format will make Necro very strong imo (Guess it made sense for Ubi : "Look Necro is less played, let's make it flood the ladder", we'll see what comes out of it", no hate ;) )

Stronghold is really interesting, eversince its main loss is Taunted orc. Feel like these decks will be good.

Academy isnt clear to me. Outside of Akane, wich will be outrageously strong if your remove tools for aggro decks like Paos etc... and still keep Forked Lightnin and the hero in the format :/.

There it is, I meant no whine in the post, just my thoughts as LackOriginality, a random 1500 player.

Let's hope this ends good !

xenon12782
02-08-2014, 05:02 AM
I think this BS2 is absolute crap... what players want is meta change and more content to this game. Make some balance change and give us some new cards to change the meta. Instead what Ubi is doing is put like half of the cards (and many of the very expensives one we have bought with money) out of print. Ubi is obviously not listening to experienced players and give no respect to their customers who spent money on this game.. I will just quit playing for good, this game is going no where. I cannot believe some of you are happy with this announcement.

pongkrit03
02-08-2014, 05:03 AM
worst expansion ever !

force people to play only traditional style, no rush, no control, nothing !!

Link490
02-08-2014, 05:21 AM
In response to the inferno creatures list.

I mostly like what you've chose except Reborn Incubus seems quite weak, and somewhat redundant. You already include a few 3 drops and hellfire imp for the token inferno flyer. I think Inferno could really use something in the 4 drop slot for the melee line, you've included lashing lilim and hellfire slave.

The obvious choice is ravager, but it might be too strong for the meta and needs to be readjusted? On first impression I think it's fine since it's only 4 health, but definitely something to think about.

punkUser
02-08-2014, 06:23 AM
I don't like how half that equation is getting rocked so hard.
As I said, the very statements you're making are leading and incorrect. Just because you think/want the meta to be "half agro, half control" doesn't mean that's what's best for the game, and it has zero bearing on the "depth" of the game or metagame.



try playing the kelthor/cassandra matchup and say differently
You can't pick two creature decks as an argument for more creatureless decks... you're in fact arguing my point with that example. The whole point is that that's one of the few matchups where it is important, and there should probably be more of them...



However when you don't have strong spells/fortunes to back up your play all those considerations like broken bridge, fireball, realignment, forbidden flame into vultures, clogging lines to prevent song of the lost, etc become moot and the matchup becomes a stale slugfest. Take out paos and impactful spells/fortunes out and creature games are just matches of rock 'em sock 'em robots with both sides slugging back and forth trying to get as many creatures to stick on the board as possible.
That's just a straw man. I never disagreed that there shouldn't be AoE spells and even board clears. I personally think fireball and BB would be fine to leave in too, but the fact remains there still are such cards in B2.



When creating your deck you have to think about different matchups against stalls, fortune decks, spell decks, on top of creatures. Building your deck is infinitely more boring when you know your enemy will have basically one strategy, smash your face with creatures.
You still are missing the entire point... enumerating what you consider to be the axes of variety in the current metagame and lumping everything else into one category (i.e. anything with creatures) is not a compelling argument. Your implicit argument that having more decks with creatures in them implies less metagame "depth" is vacuously untrue, straw men examples aside.

I'm not opposed to some stall decks and the like, but they are far too dominant in the current metagame, to the point that deck building requires building against them and lots of options are simply not viable since they have no answer to chained SS/prison/altar/etc. That's no better than the opposite.

charleshassani
02-08-2014, 07:12 AM
As I said, the very statements you're making are leading and incorrect. Just because you think/want the meta to be "half agro, half control" doesn't mean that's what's best for the game, and it has zero bearing on the "depth" of the game or metagame.


Well just so you know, he's not the only one thinking that way. Besides, saying his statement is incorrect doesnt make it any wrong. . Unless there's clue that having half aggro / half control (or so, let's not cripple on numbers) isnt what's best for the game, it stands, and makes sense to me.

Being inclusive will always be richer than excluding mechanics (Cpt Obvious passed there). I think diversity in archetypes is vital to a game. Not only is it required to match people tastes and expands the player base that way in the long run, it also forces people not to rely on one basic battle plan, wich broadens people's mind.

It implies if you choose one archetype (or so called, should it be aggro rush, midrange, control, mill, combo whatever ! ) you'll have to take into consideration what your opponent may be doing and not only focusing on making your win solution smoother so it fits no matter what. Both options are reliable, but you'll have to consider both, wich is to me of great implement.





I'm not opposed to some stall decks and the like, but they are far too dominant in the current metagame, to the point that deck building requires building against them and lots of options are simply not viable since they have no answer to chained SS/prison/altar/etc. That's no better than the opposite.

From what I'm seeing as of now, that is just incorrect. You cant possibly argue that out of 10 games in ladder, swisses, or jackpot, you'll encounter more stallls/locks, control than aggro oriented decks. Even in top tiers of the JP tournament, you wont see control / locks only.

If for some reason you're doubting the point, feel free to ask people who are regularly making tier 1 / tier 2. I went tier 1 / tier 2 a few times, and felt like the lock decks ( mostly sandalock, let's name it) were hitting a ceiling to a point.

Why ? Because such decks, while being very strong against some others, are truly powerless while certain cards are on board. As for Sandalock, a Venerable Kappa, or any fortune ward creature will almost be impossible to be dealt with. Same goes for Strength of The Sea. Unless he's able to double throne and lock straight away (implies 2 thrones, inheritance and firecamps / ressource boosts, quiet a lot you'll concede, and no week of taxes).

The problem isnt dominance of a few decks as of now. I feel it's more ensuring that cards wich are to be added in the game will, while diversifying your possibilities, not create overwhelming decks. Up to now, the only nerfs I can remember of were the Banshee (still making fuzz), "Yukiko lock" through Avalanche and "Ammar OTK", through his ability.

That means aside that, the player base as a whole did not feel like some cards were so overpowered they were unabling a deck to be beaten in a reasonable way (or that Ubi is deaf, but then what's the point of arguing?.).

If you complain your "Creatures only deck" cant beat a control deck, maybe it's time you consider modifying it, before crying for a nerf because what you first built isnt centuries proof. Same goes for a control deck not able to survive against most aggressive decks. But removing one way of playing isnt for sure the best solution.

Let's just hope further expansion(s) will allow more gamestyles.

Vamoooos
02-08-2014, 07:29 AM
Welcome to ban them all tournament.

Gladly now it's an open-beta for the Heartstone.

titanxxh
02-08-2014, 07:38 AM
Is there any chance to modify the final 300 cards list?

EndlessRamble
02-08-2014, 07:55 AM
....

I feel it is a fair argument here to point out the current diversity in both decks and strategies at high TELO and then looking at the vanilla strength and gimped options of Base Set 2. I have the factual reality of a currently robust meta pit against the vague hope that a simplified core set missing all the power spell and fortune cards will somehow lead to more enjoyable play.

Sure I can't say for certain that a even balance between control and aggro decks would be the best for the game, but common sense seems to dictate that would be a healthy place to start as any card game will have players that enjoy both styles of play.

As for the kelthor/cassandra example, I used that because it is currently a very interesting matchup but without the strong fortunes/spells it would be a brainless smash fest. Showing an example where even for creature vs creature decks gimping removal and control options will make a matchup blander.
You stated that "Positioning, lanes and melee/shooters are core mechanics of DoC that are barely exercised right now beyond minimizing damage from removal spells." and I provided a current common matchup where that is not the case and the reason is the plethora of spell and fortune options utilized by the two decks involved.

As for the dominance of stall decks that is laughable, have you even been to T1 jackpot lately because that is definitely not the situation. I'm not sure how any high ELO player who consistently plays through jackpot could honestly hold that opinion. Yeah you'll be at a disadvantage if you brew a deck that can't answer a chained prison/altar or what have you. But you'll be equally at a disadvantage if you can't counter a turn 3 sahaar brute into removal snowball, or Ishuma gold pile into board control. You have to strike a balance between cards good against spells, fortunes, and creatures, or sacrifice one aspect to strengthen another matchup. However If you know the only impact cards you will be facing are creatures then the decision making becomes pretty obvious and variety suffers.

I feel like this was a short sighted simplification of the game in order to appeal to a larger, more casual, and more profitable audience. They might add more complexity back in with further expansions but then what did this accomplish besides forcing everyone to pay more seals to get back to where we are now? (Unless that is the point). It feels like we are back at the launch of open beta. It's not just the cutting of power cards but even of all interesting cards. The vast majority of cards in base set 2 are bland vanilla creatures which is dismaying to see.

DarkProject00
02-08-2014, 08:53 AM
Unique creatures:
Haven: Anael
Necropolis: Atropos
Sanctuary: Raya
Stronghold: Zefiria
Academy: Nur

AAAAAND
Inferno: Doom bringer

I think this is terrible for inferno. Doom bringer is valid card for certain situations, but not nearly as powerful as other uniques of BS2. Give us Hikyu please!

Name one unique that can wipe an entire field in one turn ober doom bringer? I would love to know how you think its better to have the other unique

Falux79
02-08-2014, 09:20 AM
I think this BS2 is absolute crap... what players want is meta change and more content to this game. Make some balance change and give us some new cards to change the meta. Instead what Ubi is doing is put like half of the cards (and many of the very expensives one we have bought with money) out of print. Ubi is obviously not listening to experienced players and give no respect to their customers who spent money on this game.. I will just quit playing for good, this game is going no where. I cannot believe some of you are happy with this announcement.

What is the point of giving more card if in a deck we have a lot of auto-include ones, making the number of card on which you can decide something around 0?

titanxxh
02-08-2014, 09:28 AM
you just kill all the stall/sp/mill/lock deck and make this game boring, at least to me.Why this game attracts me is that you have lots of choice to beat your opponent instead of just using your creatures(like HS)hope all will change in the future expansion, or I 'll leave.sorry

FatCorgi
02-08-2014, 09:29 AM
I'm too inexperienced at this point to comment on the specific inclusions and exclusions (though I'm glad WC cheese is gone), but I'm happy to see that this game is dynamic in its balancing. Naturally, the meta diversity is likely to be narrowed while the number of standard cards is more limited, but the meta will come back up to speed once Set 2 expansions are released. MtG has a similar model in their block cycling, although their standard cardpool is still larger at its lowest point than DoC has been at its highest. On the other hand I think DoC will be able to be more flexible in the card pool it uses for its standard format once its overall cardpool, including "out of print" cards is higher. On the other other hand, having a smaller useable cardpool can be beneficial in a CCG without trading.

I didn't read through all of the comments, so I don't know if anyone's asked this yet, but will you need 200 cards from the second base set to unlock it in Altar of Wishes, and if so, will cards from the older sets included in the base set count toward that?

Also, will any currently (or going to be currently at any rate) out of print cards be re-released back into standard in later expansions?

Also also, how often will "Open" tournaments be the daily? I don't exactly have a competitive set of cards currently, and probably won't be able to play competitively on Open format days, and with the only building option for Open being Wildcards, I'm probably just going to focus on getting the cards I need for competitive Standard play. I see this as being an equally difficult obstacle to entry for players joining after BS2 releases. It's going to be disappointing if I basically have to skip tournaments every other day.

jemy000
02-08-2014, 09:32 AM
There's a lot of stuff I like here, but I'm more than a little worried about the wholesale removal of control cards. If we end up with only creature decks the meta will quickly devolve into the top 2 or 3 fighting it out while half the factions get relegated to tier 2. On the other hand Mass Rage control was barely hurt by these changes. Expect to see an awful lot of it in the future unless mass rage or void wraith is removed.

Regarding specific changes:
Void Wraith will be the new Pao getting placed in every deck. I guess that's ok, if having a card that goes in every deck is ok.

Fire magic without fireball or Armageddon isn't very fiery. Water and Air are now both better schools for, well, burn spells, while fire has become the magic of control decks with mass rage and immolation.

Light magic was nerfed into oblivion. The only usable cards reprinted are cleansing light and divine intervention, and without unique spells those will be crappy too. It didn't even get it's most iconic and thematic card, ressurection. As it stands having light magic on a hero will be a handicap. Very bad news for Haven. Either sunburst or word of light should come back.

Sanctuary was hit really hard. No Sayama stalker, spy, or dune prowler, no wanizame, no Ishuma... Why? Without Ishuma it needs that other stuff. Perhaps Takana would be OP in the new heavy creature format, but better to solve that by removing Takana than by removing all the good creatures. Dump Raya for Nyorai so the faction's power isn't all focused on one card, and in turn bring back some of the creatures I listed above.

Without Void Shade or any supporting neutral fortunes mill is not viable. Not even close. It's just a crappy creature deck with the cards left in Academy. Either bring back void
shade or stop pretending. And please please please keep djinn mentor instead of one of those crappy Titan/sentinel creatures.

For inferno, keeping gate to sheogh and removing all the good big creatures seems like some kind of prank on the players. Abyssal worm is TERRIBLE. I can understand if abyssal lord is too good but at least leave pit lord.

I don't know if haven can still be viable with some of its best creatures gone, most of the fortunes gone, and all of its heroes featuring worthless light magic. At least haven players can still use Alia rage decks.

koverasek
02-08-2014, 09:32 AM
this is madness. as i reading this thread few ppl are even happy for base set 2 revolution.
its so wrong what you are going to do. i dont even need to play to know that it will be so boring and HSlike meta.
i dont like to play HS cause its braindead and dedicated to kids - deploy what you have and pray.
i hope its some kinda of joke. this bs2 should be implemented as additional mode (not as main mode) and you would see that only few ppl play this.

victoryjyf
02-08-2014, 09:41 AM
ok guys, thank you for bringing us the BS2, it‘s a big progress, i can see that MMDOC is on the successful way just like Magic the gathering. The BS2 is a newbie friendly set and surely it will attract a lot of new player. But still I want to say some suggestions.

First thing is about the Heaven, i'm so happy to see that wolf captain is no longer in BS2, and so is the prison, and the most cards in CASS Fortune Deck. To be fair, it's unfair for the Heaven player, it's much better if u can nerf them but not so overly.

Then it's the stronghold, see ya stronghold, Kelthor is gone, Zardoc is handicapped without epic spell, the 437 creature is gone, only left is a bunch of useless creature, and ah yes, the elephant is still there, that's the only good news for the stronghold. Same as the opinion to heaven, it's a bit overly for the stronghold.

Inferno, I'm ok with the change to inferno, if something i can complain about, that will be the missing fireball. I mean, seriously? The fireball spell exist from the beginning of the Heroes of Might & Magic, and now it's gone, 4 resources and 4 magic required, it's not an unfair spell. Really, think about put it back to the list.

Necro, necro has not lost most of its valued creatures and spells, maybe Adar Malik is a big lost, but necro saves most of the deck based on it. Maybe it's because necro is not so "strong" now in BS1, but actually i think you should nerf necro more, now the necro seems a bit unbalancing. The Banshee, Atropos, Decay Spitter, that's almost all the necro needs.

Sanctuary, ishuma is gone, that's all the influence the BS2 bring to Sanctuary, now it's the time that Sanctuary find another way to live. I can't say it's a good thing or bad thing, without Ishuma the Hypnotize effect is not so necessary for the sanctuary anymore, and it's a small change but really changes a lot for the santuary.

Academy, gazl is no more there, nice! Hakeem can not mill anymore, nice! I hate Academy, they bring me just the endless games and the bad mood. I'm so happy to see that Academy can not play slow anymore. Good Job, that's all i want to say about the changing to academy.

Then the last, about Neutral, i'm fine with almost all changes about the neutral, only one thing not, the 4 searching-library creature. In my opinion, a good Board game should avoid the influence of LUCK, i don't want to play the game, that my opponents has topdeck the whole game and i have bad luck but can't do anything to change it. The 4 searching-library creature is not unbalancing, all they can do is increase the chance to get our epic, otherways you guys have already kick the epic spells out, so at least leave us the Wandering Bard, pls?

That's all I want to say about the BS 2, I wish you guys can make this game better and better, I play Heroes of Might & Magic since I was 9, and now I'm 24, I really hope that you can always bring us surprise just like what you did 15 years ago.

best wishes to BS2

PS: only 10 gift codes? Come on guys, let the shi-no-shi eat the kitten warrior!

FatCorgi
02-08-2014, 09:44 AM
i dont even need to play to know that it will be so boring and HSlike meta.
i dont like to play HS cause its braindead and dedicated to kids - deploy what you have and pray.

I doubt that. Even the incomplete decks I'm running have way more depth than anything I could make in HS. Plus, the meta is being reduced to a state similar to when Base set 1 was the only series. I wasn't around back then, but I can't imagine it could have been that bad.

Falux79
02-08-2014, 09:44 AM
There is only 2 choice that i am concerned:

1. Why Raya????? I think it will be the most OP card in Bs2, also considering that there isn't lot of removing stuff in the set. Nyorai will be a better include.

2. Doombringer????? Again... Why????? Fire and Inferno are all about damage, always. Far better including Hykiu here.....

zuom000
02-08-2014, 10:02 AM
Will arianna achievement stay or it 'll be changed?

titanxxh
02-08-2014, 10:05 AM
I feel it is a fair argument here to point out the current diversity in both decks and strategies at high TELO and then looking at the vanilla strength and gimped options of Base Set 2. I have the factual reality of a currently robust meta pit against the vague hope that a simplified core set missing all the power spell and fortune cards will somehow lead to more enjoyable play.Sure I can't say for certain that a even balance between control and aggro decks would be the best for the game, but common sense seems to dictate that would be a healthy place to start as any card game will have players that enjoy both styles of play.As for the kelthor/cassandra example, I used that because it is currently a very interesting matchup but without the strong fortunes/spells it would be a brainless smash fest. Showing an example where even for creature vs creature decks gimping removal and control options will make a matchup blander.You stated that "Positioning, lanes and melee/shooters are core mechanics of DoC that are barely exercised right now beyond minimizing damage from removal spells." and I provided a current common matchup where that is not the case and the reason is the plethora of spell and fortune options utilized by the two decks involved.As for the dominance of stall decks that is laughable, have you even been to T1 jackpot lately because that is definitely not the situation. I'm not sure how any high ELO player who consistently plays through jackpot could honestly hold that opinion. Yeah you'll be at a disadvantage if you brew a deck that can't answer a chained prison/altar or what have you. But you'll be equally at a disadvantage if you can't counter a turn 3 sahaar brute into removal snowball, or Ishuma gold pile into board control. You have to strike a balance between cards good against spells, fortunes, and creatures, or sacrifice one aspect to strengthen another matchup. However If you know the only impact cards you will be facing are creatures then the decision making becomes pretty obvious and variety suffers. I feel like this was a short sighted simplification of the game in order to appeal to a larger, more casual, and more profitable audience. They might add more complexity back in with further expansions but then what did this accomplish besides forcing everyone to pay more seals to get back to where we are now? (Unless that is the point). It feels like we are back at the launch of open beta. It's not just the cutting of power cards but even of all interesting cards. The vast majority of cards in base set 2 are bland vanilla creatures which is dismaying to see.I can't agree more

malkorion
02-08-2014, 10:15 AM
I think that the biggest problem with stall / lock decks is that most decks couldn't interact with the opponent at all, and it required you to prepare against specific threats.

Throne of Renewal? Venerable Kappa / The Strength of the Sea
Magic based removal? Blackskull Crusher
Altar of Shadows? Stream Singer
Stone Shield annoying you? Light magic, Blackskull Spellsmasher

There were barely any viable answers to these cards, and if there was anything it was either tied to a faction or a specific spell school.

Another thing that irks is the fact that there is no interaction with your opponent. Hit the end turn button and pray is right. He can do his whole combo uninterrupted while you're just sitting there, and looking at all the cards you can't play.

sanderscc
02-08-2014, 10:18 AM
Some of the people said that BS1 change to BS2 is like changing expansions in MTG, but the main different between this two card game is the life-time of the expansions.

MTG will announce the unusable date of each expansion(usually around a year before), so the player can have a better plan on buying cards or opening packs and use them in "STANDARD" mode, the players even can sell the "OUT STANDARD" cards to other, therefore the change of expansions will not problem to them.

Ubi announce the unusable date of the old card set only two months earlier, it is very unfriendly to all the mmdoc player, because they have no idea that most of their cards will become "OUT STANDARD" after such a short time, they opened many packs and spent many wildcards on the "OUT STANDARD" cards, this action ruined their plan of how to play this card game.

BS1 change to BS2 could be a good intent, but announcing the BS2 only two months earlier is such a bad decision.

P.S. If there is any grammatical mistake, please forgive me.

Izachiel
02-08-2014, 10:19 AM
I am a bit disappointed, in that case that i expected something else, not about the solution itself.

Maybe my mind was connected too much with Magic the Gathering, but i expected something like the Base set 1 rotating out (the very first set that was released) and a totally new set of cards rotate in.
This would mean like roughly 200 new cards, which was a bit of a high expectation, but i think something like this needed to be done to keep the playerbase.

Everyone who played Jackpot noticed a recent decrease in people playing Jackpot and despite some people saying "people are just getting smarter and notice that jackpot is only for high-level players", it is a good measure for people playing this game at the moment.
I know that this new base set is just a setup, a single step for greater and further advancements ... but it is too slow! Duel of Champions is losing players and something needs to happen NOW/SOON or else they will lose more players to the very strong competitors coming out (Hearthstone, Hex) and not set something up to build a house which will take ages to rise!

The community is basically split in half. The one half saying it's a good decision to do it like this and they are looking forward to changes in the current meta-game, the other half is frustrated because they expected something really new and not just old cards clumped up into a new base set.
And THERE is the problem. Ubisoft needed to set a hype, to elate the community, to get the people looking really forward to it, but instead they disappoint half the community.
Everytime they try to do something good, they keep frustrating a lot of players due to questionable "advances" in the game.

So far so (not) good, i think the only assumption we can make is, that time will tell if it's a good addition to the game, or if it scares away players with limits to the tactical decision making and deck-building.

Alexis.Rolland
02-08-2014, 10:28 AM
I have to say I quite like the philosophy of Base set 2. I think it will bring diversity, make the game a bit less elitist and more accessible to new players at the same time. The fact that major cards from the current meta are not included in the list IS A GOOD THING (wolf captain, sandalphon, kelthor, and all the fortunes...). Basically, the way I understand it is:
- new or less engaged players will probably play the standard format most of the time. At least at the beginning.
- whereas more experienced players / hardcore gamers can still enjoy their strong decks in the open format.

The open format should not be interpreted as a "sub format", but it will probably be a bit more like the "Wild West". All in all, this will help to keep the game accessible for newbies and it's actually a common strategy in CCG to guarantee the card balancing (Magic the Gathering community applies a similar logic in their tournament).

One question about the ELO though, will or shouldn't it be calculated separately in each Format? I am not sure I saw anything about that...

FatCorgi
02-08-2014, 10:38 AM
BS1 change to BS2 could be a good intent, but announcing the BS2 only two months earlier is such a bad decision.


True, but on the bright side, I think we should have a clearer understanding of DoC's cycle model in the future. I doubt nearly as many people are going to get burned on BS3 and onwards.

malkorion
02-08-2014, 10:44 AM
They said that they are looking into the ELO system and are thinking about a solution. They can't say anything else right now.

celgeko
02-08-2014, 10:45 AM
in this expansion.
Expert player can continue playing their Open tournaments (that become harder cause new player lack) or try to show their powerful to the standard edition, without any card advantage.

ps: jason paradise appeared to me in a dream, announcing that I would be part of the testers of this set.. (this can be a real little advantage!)
my game name is: Waragadar

Dracher101
02-08-2014, 11:10 AM
After watching the stream i still have some questions about the upcoming changes:
1. The actual boosters (including VR, HotV, FW and 5T) will be gone from the shop all at the same time after BS2 goes live?
2. The Legacy mode will be a viable option considering the limited possibilities to buy the boosters for BS1?
3. Why not combining all the actual boosters into a generic one, Like Emillio's, with 24 cards for exemple, and keep that in the shop for players wanting to try Legacy?
4. What about WC prices of both BS2 (and post BS2) and Legacy? Prices went up and WC gain went down once. Is it possible again?
5. What about brackets for swiss or Jp?
6. With the new format, and the possibilitiy that legacy/open mod becoming obsolete, the elo will include results from both formats? What about the rewards for the 2 formats?
7. Will the Legacy mode be just something like practice with no rewards and elo? I really hope the don't do that, but yesterday i heard many evasive answers so...

Thank you for your time, and sorry for my english, but is not my native language.

Vulcanusos
02-08-2014, 11:23 AM
Hello to everyone who will read this ;)

First of all I want to say that I really dislike this new idea of base set 2 because it changes to much of the content which isn't necessary at all. I think Ubisoft could easily bring new formats and balances in this game without such a big effort and later on I will explain a possibilty for that.
A lot of players especially new ones are seeing bs2 as a better balance of the game but it isn't. The current elo system mostly prevents from very unfair match ups, as long as you know where your limits are.
I don't get the point why starter players should be afraid of specialized decks like Sanda lock or Hakeem mill, because they won't fight against them till they reach something above 1000 elo or playing tournaments! So where is the problem of the current meta?
Maybe new players are getting trouble to reach something over 1200 elo in 1 week and are frustrated of losing all the time in this range and I felt so too but that doesn't justify Ubisoft to change the whole content of the game. I easily reached 1200elo with a slightly improved Inferno starter deck at a time were no improved starter decks like today existed but that was my limit as a beginner.
I don't get the point why starter players should be afraid of specialized decks like Sanda lock or Hakeem mill, because they won't fight against them till they reach something above 1000 elo or playing tournaments!
You don't start the game by instantly fighting against pro gamers, so you have a lot of time to improve your skills and your deck.
Maybe I'm to stupid to understand why the new system should improve a good game like DoC is now.
You start as a newbie and getting better all the time and when there is a point where you have problems to reach a higher elo, just move to a range where you have your fun and farm enough ressources to build a better deck and improve your strategies.
I played some other card games and they didn't ever delete the old content just to improve the balance and the game experience for new players which is more as questionably in this case, they just added restrictions for a new format, where some cards couldn't be used. That would be so easy and fine and I hope that this possibilty will change something, because I really enjoy DoC as it is now.

Regards,

Vulcanusos

elkondziorre
02-08-2014, 11:24 AM
There will be tweaks to card selection I think. But rotating out everything that is most playable is good for the game. For short it will look like simplified game, but then it is refreshment.

I wanted the following cards to be removed:
- PAO - done, too heavily explored in all kinds of decks
- Dark assassin - done
- unique spells - done, too op and mandatory
- puppet/shadow image - done
- all passive events that make game more random - week of taxes, manastorm, austerity - done
- prison - done
- altar of shadows - done, boring to death
- most top heroes - done, great refreshment for the meta

One thing I am missing is to remove Stone Shield. This will still be most boring in all stall decks to have this card. Very good counter was to keep Earth grasp I think. This is different kind of control to the board than 'one turn escape spells' which is boring, but would keep the decks in check and require to modify from full rush to 'rush with toolbox'.
Atropos is still questionable return. And I agree that Akane will recurr the spells and be very good deck at first sight.
Slowing the game with removing a lot of rush cards is quite good and with reducing the combo/otk decks in parallel, it will keep the balance in the game. The game will be more mid-range tempo. But this will give chance for the next expansion to keep things new and drive it in a good way.


But the best thing is to introduce new game modes. Weekly format I think is something like race events in Path of Exile that will keep the game alive. Before the announcement I talked to friend and said something about that - weekly events. And here it comes. I was a little bored just playing to keep all the collection comlete. And also having swiss and jackpot every day is something I wanted for a long time.
Now I am waiting for competitive tournaments that do not force to keep limited schedule. I do not attend forum-driven tournaments, because I have time to play irregularly. So something that works like arena in hearthstone would be great. That would allow to play games when I have the time (not necessarily be the arena from hs).

Edit: And as I play from the start of open beta I have been missing big changes to the game. People complain about shifting the contents, but I suspect they are playing shortly: like for 3-6 months instead of 1.5 year. But for long time players it is very good.

koverasek
02-08-2014, 11:27 AM
the only reason you guys leave positive feedback is you want to be a part of this sb2 tournment.
ubi decided to remove many amazing cards from meta instead of balance them and you enjoy this - it makes no sense.

MarkusLeWolf
02-08-2014, 11:28 AM
As af airly new player i spent all my unused WC on wolf captains last week....just kill me now :(

FatCorgi
02-08-2014, 11:36 AM
the only reason you guys leave positive feedback is you want to be a part of this sb2 tournment.
ubi decided to remove many amazing cards from meta instead of balance them and you enjoy this - it makes no sense.

You caught us. All of us hate it without exception, but a lot of us are just lying about it; because a tournament invite is worth compromising your integrity over, and surely they'll only be inviting people who leave positive feedback.

M0rw47h
02-08-2014, 11:41 AM
As af airly new player i spent all my unused WC on wolf captains last week....just kill me now :(

You still will be able to play them.

Fakirbocko
02-08-2014, 11:55 AM
Must say this look new and refreshing, i love idea to remove overused cards becouse no one play other nice and fun cards, pao dark asasin unique spells and fortunes was just "must in all decks" so this wil give us lots of FUN (and that is MUST in game ).

I am ok with all cards. new formats weekly looks interesting i will play that, all comon / all green/ 1 copy of card and similar stuff will be fun, like we play for achivments, 209 card deck and so on :) just to break curent "meta" or op deck that ppl copy/paste


only one thing i beg you, DONT remove old achivment, i like achivments i done so pls make them "LOCKED" or whatever just dont remove them from game, i work hard for them, so leave them as locked pls, thanx :)


and great job ppl :)

buh122
02-08-2014, 11:58 AM
right know i have to say as there will not only be a change to the playable card with base set 2 as well as a change of how the game mechanics works it still is kinda hard to realy figure out if the changes will work that way or if not. over aöll i am looking forward to the new oportuneties and hope it works out.

i think to retire the pre bas ste 2 boosters completly is a bad decission on the creators end. i think even new players would like to have the oportunety to participate in open format and if they have no chance to do just that i think it will kill open format with in half a year cause as we all know to keep a community game running it needs new blood and the possibility for new players to jo9in the ranks as older play start to stop playing and move to other formatzs or other games instaed. it would be a real bad change to allow that to happen.

in my opinion it would be a good idea to keep the options to buy the older cards open for new players as well just keeping them as altar cards wont work as you simply cant spend that much money to get all u need as u will need ur wc for base set2 cards and the followingeditions.

aas the development of the game with bring forth a base set3 as well it might be a good idea to establish the open format for all obsolet none stand cards also in the futre the base set 2 or 3 cards. so u allways have the balanced standard game and right next to it a kinda open kinda crazy try what u can make out of it opem for,mat.

Skywalking1
02-08-2014, 12:01 PM
Don't build the game from ground up. The game is fine. People just complain about op this op that in every game forum. There are 7-8 different deck types that can reach t1 so the diversity is ok. Next target is to come up with creative cards that can bring that number to 10+.

A newbie-friendly zone is ok, just don't start rebuilding the game or those who purchased the banned cards will feel ripped off.

Perhaps maybe in a vacuum Base 2 seems like a good idea, but consider the brand name and customer loyalty. Also consider that the game have meta history and the art of the banned cards took effort and inspiration to create.

zapp626
02-08-2014, 12:16 PM
Well basically they turned the power curve for BS2 down a whole notch. If you think about it, that makes absolute sense, because now they can create new expansions without moving the power curve higher then the current state with all the expansions. I think on the long term this move will keep the game alive. I can't really say if BS2 is balanced, I will leave that to more experienced players.

The only thing I think will happen is that especially in the beginning Open Format will be quite empty, because new players don't have access to all the cards. Older players farming newbies (they didn't change anything there unfortunatly) will all move to open.

So my only suggestion is, maybe think about keeping booster packs for BS1 in the store, I really don't think this will hurt anybody.

Vamoooos
02-08-2014, 12:27 PM
Question specially for JasonParadise
Ishuma's alternative art card for which I paid 3000 seals will be out of date in a couple of weeks?

burnmyself
02-08-2014, 12:30 PM
I was worried about the Base Set 2, but when I saw the list of cards I must say it's very good :) Finally no Pao's, DA's, WC's and other boring creatures. It's good to see that there shouldn't be any stall/mill/OTK. But maybe the next expansion will bring them back to live. Anyway, I would like to introduce a few changes to the list.

Heroes

Academy:
Akane, Caller Of Memories is strong with Forked Lightning, so I would change her for Gazal LoS or Ammar.
The rest of heroes is ok.

Haven:
All heroes ok.

Inferno:
Add Phrias and Xorm/Belias and remove Dhamiria and Ignatius. Dhamiria has been played too much since HotV and Ignatius won't be effective without all these fortunes.

Necropolis:
Heroes are ok. Maybe Nergal instead od Namtaru.

Sanctuary:
I would really like to see Akane, Mounrner of Lost Memories. She has a lot of potential, while Takana might be too strong with Honor Binds Us. Sanctuary has already Shalan and Yukiko that will be good fortune-based decks. So I think adding Akane with some good spells is ok.

Stronghold:
Zardoc has strong passive. Maybe change him for Zouleika?

Events

Events are ok, but Rise Of The Nethermancer will hurt Necro and some decks based on the graveyard. I would change it for Market Shadows.

Fortunes

Fortunes are great. But what about adding:
-Blood Pull or Blood Shaman Hut for Stronghold?
-Broken Bridge?
-Rite of Necromantic Transfer for Necro?
-Altar of Destruction for Inferno?

Creatures

Creatures are also good. But these changes will make it better:
-Hikyu instead of Doombringer
-Ghost Dragon instead of Fate Weaver
-Rakshasa instead of one of Phased Creatures

Spells

Spells are perfect for me, not too much AOE.


I think with these changes BS2 would be more balanced, especially the heroes. Good luck UBI!

Skywalking1
02-08-2014, 12:37 PM
It is the dynamic state of an imbalanced, constantly changing meta that is interesting. Figuring out the good decks and bad decks after updates makes the game interesting. Complaining about cards is interesting and what cards are too powerful is interesting. There is no perfect card game.

Instead of cutting off commonly played t1 cards, vote for 10 cards to be banned each week to make deck creation fresh and dynamic. Cards that are banned in 1 week may come back another week if people stop voting for that card, so no cards and card art will be obsolete.

CookLooksClan
02-08-2014, 12:39 PM
So, it is nice to see some changes to be made, but I think some choises are questionable.

Card Pool for stardant mode

So, currently we have 300 cards that will be available for standart games. It seems like cool idea, you know, it will shake up the meta etc. But when I am looking at cards, situation is really sad. Let's have a quick look.

Buildings

Pretty much all buildings never going to be touched. Of course war tent will be used, since in my opinion it is the best builing (outclasing even the removed unique builings).
And the we have inferno building Hall of Nightmares, and creature lurker in the dark too, so obviously Lurkers is just all around a better choise. They are creature by themself, And you only need to spend 1 card instead of 2. And don't forget that not all inferno decks will need that fear 3. I think it is unessecary to talk about other buildings (Moonsilk skeleton > Soul Spire) and so on, there is just a better options, so buildings can be easily replaced. So In buildings section, we can see 4-5 unusable cards: Arcane Orb, Watchtower, Soul Spire, and we also have sanctuary building Hidden Dojo, but I will come to sanctuary faction later...


Creatures

First, the problem is that there is almost no options from what to choose, so cards just be auto include, only diffrence will be - oh, do I want 3 schoolars, 4 Wizard tutors, or only 3 Tutors. There is no flexibility. And player will get sick of seeing absolulty same decks over and over again.

Factions without any possible changes to creatures: Haven, Sanctuary (absolutly unplayable), academy(slight changes are possible). And then inferno, stronghold, necro is almost unchanged. So I am not surprised that Dhamiria and Ariana will be absolute topdecks, and then everyone is going to complain about that in a same way as they complained about ishuma, then cass, then kelthor.

Another problem is that creature list is not that well planned, lets look at Venerable Kappa without thrones or bridges. Or reborn Incubus without competetive milling possibilties. It just weird for me. Same goes with spells like earthbound and so on.

Spells

Air - I guess it is ok. Removing lighning strike will make game diffrent.
Dark - weakened, but compered to others, over powered more then ever before.
Earth - I guess it is ok, but again not that many choises, stone shield is just derp, since all fortunes is gone.
Fire - no fireball, that is pretty weird, since geysar is still in..
Light - just, just no. Come on, Chain heals? no damage spells? I mean come on :S
Prime - Alright.
Water - really strong.

Dominating spell schools - dark, earth, water.

Fortunes

There is no fortunes.
Well, ok, there is some left. But without bridges, there is no "removal" for fortune decks. So I don't think fortune decks will exsist. (Takana maybe?)
And some of the fortunes is just, derpy derp, absolutly unusable and really gimicy.

Heros

Destroyed heros:

Cassandra
Ignatius
Mother namataru
Shalan
Acamas (I guess there is some perspectives)

So heros was bad, and will countinue to be bad.

Op heros:
Dhamiria
Ariana (Seria is really similar too)
Zardoc/Kat (weaker then others, but really powerful).

Events
It is ok, some events are questionable, just as some creatures that are left.

The list of worthless and competively unplayable cards:
1.Arcane Orb
2.Watchtower
3.Hall of Nightmares
4.Soul Spire
5.Wizard Apprentice
6.Wizard Disciple
7.Titan
8.Imperial Crossbowman
9.Vindicator
10.Cerberus
11.Reborn incubus
12.Putrid lamasu
13.Moonsilk spinner
14.Namataru channeler
15.Kenshi
16.Snow maiden
17.Unmei-Kami
18.Silver bowl spirit
19.Sans kame
20.Wyvern rider
21.Enraged Cyclops
22.Panther Warrior
23.Blackskull centaur
24.Blackskull cyclops
25.Blackskull spellsmasher
26.Lesser air elemental
27.lesser fire elemental
28.Angry wyvern
29.Black vulture
30.Blind brother
31.greater fire elemental
32.greater earth elemental
33.greater air elemental
34.Greater water elemental
35.Sahaar skirmisher
36.Day of fortune
37.Week of weaponsmiths
38.Hail storm
39. Cosmic balance
40.Time of war
41. chain casting
42.Forgotten spell
43.tree of truth
44. stockpile
45.morgan's inspiration
46.favor of the just
47. void judgment
48. dunes of madness
49.Phrias gift
50.Sacrifice.
51.Ariana's lair
52.early grave
53.soul harvest
54.Challenge hall
55.the frozen maze
56.road to enlightenment
57.sinkhole
58.noboru's insight
59.Zefiria's celerity
60.famous last blows.
61.stolen supplies
62.volunteers
63.architect's wonder.
64. lifting wind
65.air trap
66.ylath's breath
67.shared agony
68.mass regeneration
69. stone shield
70.poisonous bulb
71.earth bound
72. sylvanna's embrace
73.deep roots
74.Landslide
75.fire shield
76.fiery death
77.lava stream
78.soulfire
79.martyr
80.guardian angel
81.aura of healing
82.lay on hands
83.chain heal
84.nether curse
85.cold fear
86.Shalassa's blade.

Notices
bs2 will change the types of decks, we will see mostly creature based decks (hearthstone anyone?).I think it was unique game, since we were able to play decks without single creature, or without single spell or fortune.

Final words

I really like that you are working on some changes, but so far they do not look promising. I hope you will notice what comunity wants. So far, I am a little bit disapointed. But I have faith, that at the end it will be positive change.

Uraxor
02-08-2014, 12:51 PM
Can you give me back my 3k seals for ishuma, Ubi? Btw nice move, put really expensive card into shop, and dont reprint:)

I would say Alt Arts will still be allowed to be played .. but then I'd probably be trolling..

sodapopX
02-08-2014, 01:11 PM
A few weeks ago in Quebec...


Dev 1: Wow, we need more money! Peoples has realized that we only want their money after the 5T and the WC-Changes. Now they are leaving and not paying any longer :(

Dev 2: Yeah...We need a new idea!

Dev 1: I got it...We take out many of the strongest Heroes and cards - and say, they are not playable in normal matches any longer.

Dev 2: And then?

Dev 1: Easy...Before the change offer a limited skin for one of the Heroes who will be removed...let's say....Ishuma! And we take really much for it, so everyone with too much money will feel exclusive and put money into our company!

Dev 2: But that's not really enough to survive another year...:(

Dev 1: Yeah, that's only point 1. After the good cards are out - the cards, the peoples has wasted their Wildcards for - we bring out a new expansion with new strong cards! So they can buy it again! And the best thing: We don't even need balance-changes anymore. Everything what is too strong we will just take out!

Dev 2:Sounds nice, but the expansion should not come instantly - otherwise the people would realize what we try to do!

Dev 1: Obviously. Let's better tell them first, this is a new feature to change the meta and bring more fun into the game. It's not a rob, it's a feature - you know? I'm sure they will eat this ****

Dev 2: Of course they will! They eat every ****...


Nice try Ubi, nice try ;-)



Greetz,
Enclase

This is true, but I like this. I have so many seals/gold sitting here and nothing interesting to spend them on.

The infamous "current meta" is so fckn old and boring, 5T was so disapointing. What this BS2 will do is, it will reset the game to pre- Herald of the Void, waiting for another HotV (which was their best expansion so far) state, and that's great.

Shukfir
02-08-2014, 01:11 PM
I like the idea of different types of damage.

What's about Greater Earth Elemental? It's the only great elemental we still missing. Probably you should replace Lesser Earth Elemental with it (those guy is too similar to Angry Wyvern, that is still in game).

Besides, Greater Earth Elemental can be a good counter-creature against dangerous Insect Swarms - probably the most powerful spell of the upcoming meta.

ShardHawk
02-08-2014, 01:12 PM
I play this game for about 3+ months. I have invested some money directly in the beginning because I knew that I will like this game for a long time.

The update including the next base set gives me mixed feelings..

What I like:

The new UI is absolutely needed and hopefully will be great.
The introduction of different formats is very good.
It is a clean way to remove problematic cards from the game by introducing new base sets/expansions without them.
Creature types will probably allow interesting gameplay in the future when new cards will be added.
It's nice that you can chose between jackpot and swiss every day.


What I don't like:

Making old cards available by WC only is a mistake. Not only old players will want to play open format. But this makes it practically impossible for "newer" players to get all the cards the want/need over time. Considering the fact that some expansions will rotate out sooner or later the non-accessible card pool will grow. In other games you can trade old cards and get into legacy formats like this. But this is not possible here so you need to make the old cards accessible or the open/legacy format will die out.
Introducing the standard format with only the base set 2 cards is very bad. There are too few cards to make an interesting meta. Right now there are a lot of decks and each of them has counter-decks. The lack of removal and stall in the BS2 will produce a creature bashing festival. A lot of strategies just got killed... (mill,stall,otk). But you need a variety of strategies to make a card game interesting.
Removal of achievements.. Seriously?? That's a little sneaky in my opinion. I have a lot of those achievements giving BS1 cards almost done. Still doesn't mean I will have enough time to complete them before the update comes. Why not just exchange BS1 rewards with BS2 rewards? Would that solution be too easy?



Conclusion:
Don't take away rewards!
Don't make legacy cards available by WC only.
We need more cards to have an interesting standard format.

samdamanpart5
02-08-2014, 01:46 PM
Hmm, I feel that the base set 2 heroes should be standardized.

Every faction should have the following heroes:-

x1 Seeker (2 destiny base hero)
x1 Invoker (3 types of magic hero)
x1 Champion (2 might hero)
x1 Caller (6 cost special ability hero)

Therefore, adar malik should replace ariana, xorm should replace ignatius, kaiko to replace shalan. jezziel should replace morgan. If not, hero is not balanced?

ullandon
02-08-2014, 01:53 PM
As a memeber of the steam group 100% Achievement Group I really need to ask: Will you be nuking set ralted achievements every time you release a new base set? Because if it's true then it's a totally disrespectful for people like me and honestly removes any incentive to play and gather cards, beause whats the point to achieve something you will later erase without any thought. No game ever on steam has deleted achievements that were working properly, only ones that were broken got deleted from games. Way to set a new low.

S9TF1
02-08-2014, 01:53 PM
Conclusion:
Don't take away rewards!
Don't make legacy cards available by WC only.
We need more cards to have an interesting standard format.

This.

uplay-is-fail
02-08-2014, 02:13 PM
Yeah ... Ubisoft strikes again!
Why do I ******* allways play their games again and again?



...
Dev 2: Of course they will! They eat every ****...
...


Of course most of us will! Many of us spend a lot of time and money to build up a serious card pool here.
They know we will eat this **** and many more will turn up in the future. You are right, thats like robbing all of us!

When i was young, nobody would even think about spending so much money in a single game.
The whole gaming industry became greedy and insane with the arise of the holy grail - "free to p(l)ay" system.
And we were stupid enaugh to join in. I also spend arround 200€ but you know what? This will end now...

quick money>paying customer - Ubisoft logic at its best!
Im looking forward to the day when Ubisoft finally managed to scare of all their customers!

Ximaloc
02-08-2014, 02:47 PM
A few weeks ago in Quebec...


Dev 1: Wow, we need more money! Peoples has realized that we only want their money after the 5T and the WC-Changes. Now they are leaving and not paying any longer :(

Dev 2: Yeah...We need a new idea!

Dev 1: I got it...We take out many of the strongest Heroes and cards - and say, they are not playable in normal matches any longer.

Dev 2: And then?

Dev 1: Easy...Before the change offer a limited skin for one of the Heroes who will be removed...let's say....Ishuma! And we take really much for it, so everyone with too much money will feel exclusive and put money into our company!

Dev 2: But that's not really enough to survive another year...:(

Dev 1: Yeah, that's only point 1. After the good cards are out - the cards, the peoples has wasted their Wildcards for - we bring out a new expansion with new strong cards! So they can buy it again! And the best thing: We don't even need balance-changes anymore. Everything what is too strong we will just take out!

Dev 2:Sounds nice, but the expansion should not come instantly - otherwise the people would realize what we try to do!

Dev 1: Obviously. Let's better tell them first, this is a new feature to change the meta and bring more fun into the game. It's not a rob, it's a feature - you know? I'm sure they will eat this ****

Dev 2: Of course they will! They eat every ****...


Nice try Ubi, nice try ;-)



Greetz,
Enclase

Nothing more to say.

iharderages
02-08-2014, 03:06 PM
I play this game for about 3+ months. I have invested some money directly in the beginning because I knew that I will like this game for a long time.

The update including the next base set gives me mixed feelings..

What I like:

The new UI is absolutely needed and hopefully will be great.
The introduction of different formats is very good.
It is a clean way to remove problematic cards from the game by introducing new base sets/expansions without them.
Creature types will probably allow interesting gameplay in the future when new cards will be added.
It's nice that you can chose between jackpot and swiss every day.


What I don't like:

Making old cards available by WC only is a mistake. Not only old players will want to play open format. But this makes it practically impossible for "newer" players to get all the cards the want/need over time. Considering the fact that some expansions will rotate out sooner or later the non-accessible card pool will grow. In other games you can trade old cards and get into legacy formats like this. But this is not possible here so you need to make the old cards accessible or the open/legacy format will die out.
Introducing the standard format with only the base set 2 cards is very bad. There are too few cards to make an interesting meta. Right now there are a lot of decks and each of them has counter-decks. The lack of removal and stall in the BS2 will produce a creature bashing festival. A lot of strategies just got killed... (mill,stall,otk). But you need a variety of strategies to make a card game interesting.
Removal of achievements.. Seriously?? That's a little sneaky in my opinion. I have a lot of those achievements giving BS1 cards almost done. Still doesn't mean I will have enough time to complete them before the update comes. Why not just exchange BS1 rewards with BS2 rewards? Would that solution be too easy?



Conclusion:
Don't take away rewards!
Don't make legacy cards available by WC only.
We need more cards to have an interesting standard format.

Yes don't make old cards only avaible with wildcards ! Then all problems would be solved. The player who want to play the new mode can play it and the others can play old one. Let's start a petition. I think we should make a new forum thread for it.

Dracher101
02-08-2014, 03:08 PM
Yes don't make old cards only avaible with wildcards ! Then all problems would be solved. The player who want to play the new mode can play it and the others can play old one. Let's start a petition. I think we should make a new forum thread for it.
We could try this.

Alexis.Rolland
02-08-2014, 03:10 PM
Yeah ... Ubisoft strikes again!
Why do I ******* allways play their games again and again?



Of course most of us will! Many of us spend a lot of time and money to build up a serious card pool here.
They know we will eat this **** and many more will turn up in the future. You are right, thats like robbing all of us!

When i was young, nobody would even think about spending so much money in a single game.
The whole gaming industry became greedy and insane with the arise of the holy grail - "free to p(l)ay" system.
And we were stupid enaugh to join in. I also spend arround 200€ but you know what? This will end now...

quick money>paying customer - Ubisoft logic at its best!
Im looking forward to the day when Ubisoft finally managed to scare of all their customers!

Guys, stop raging against the devs or the company. This game is free, and you are still complaining. You are a grown up person, no one forces you to monetize. If you don't like the model, just quite. If you stay, it means you have fun so stop complaining. It's a very small dev team behind DoC and they're doing a great job, I don't think they get any percentage from what you pay but they deserve the game to be a success... And that means being profitable.

uplay-is-fail
02-08-2014, 03:28 PM
Guys, stop raging against the devs or the company.
I never said a single word against the devs, they just do what Ubisoft told them to do.


If you don't like the model, just quite.
This argument is so cheap... plz stop to use standard phrases or i will simply ignore what you are writing.

bigbobbyk
02-08-2014, 03:30 PM
I took a quick look at everything yesterday and i said i liked it. Looking at it again this morning.... and i still like it.

Im happy with the base set 2 card list. I dont mind that at all

Hopefully the new ui works and doesnt crash :)

Having multiple formats will be very good for the game and having them in JPs and Swiss' is great.

the removal of achievements seems a bit off to me but not a big deal but could be something they could work on

only getting legacy/open format cards via WC could be back breaking for newer players and thats my only real bad impression by all of this. They need to have packs availble for older cards even if its just Emilios Packs or something maybe even a new type of pack or something. Newer players trying to build there BS2 decks might have to use some WC to get those cards and then cant spend the WC to get legacy/open format cards which in turn wont let them compete in those tournements. :(

but other then that I think this is a very positive thing for the game and people need to calm down and take some time to understand it.

MissiNick
02-08-2014, 03:40 PM
Guys, stop raging against the devs or the company. This game is free, and you are still complaining. You are a grown up person, no one forces you to monetize. If you don't like the model, just quite. If you stay, it means you have fun so stop complaining. It's a very small dev team behind DoC and they're doing a great job, I don't think they get any percentage from what you pay but they deserve the game to be a success... And that means being profitable.

People complains because they like the game, and don't want the game to be ruined, in their proper opinion.

Criticism is useful, (if devs listen...), on the opposite, post like yours are useless, because you don't bring anything new or constructive to the discussion.

That said, I think that BS2 will bring the standard game to very low levels, much less tactic, it's just "you deploy monster --> I deploy a more powerful monster" and so on, like Heartstone.
Luckily they've decided to give us the chance to play with all the cards in another mode, but removing achievements and removing the actual boosters from the market are very bad moves, and this is a sort of cheating all the players.

I hope devs will change their mind about this, because it's disrespectful.

r9921103
02-08-2014, 03:45 PM
If anyone is curious from which expansions the cards were picked from, here's my card excel listing with BS2 cards marked in orange.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgNFFzJpBmkxdDY0TnZhR0pfQUJYMmJqaVVSeVlaS Wc&usp=drive_web#gid=0

Good jobs~

This is so wonderful~~~

But the forgotten wars sheet seems a little wrong at the final statistics.

Just for your reference.

Thanks for your sharing!!

sodapopX
02-08-2014, 03:46 PM
Yeah ... Ubisoft strikes again!
Why do I ******* allways play their games again and again?



Of course most of us will! Many of us spend a lot of time and money to build up a serious card pool here.
They know we will eat this **** and many more will turn up in the future. You are right, thats like robbing all of us!

When i was young, nobody would even think about spending so much money in a single game.
The whole gaming industry became greedy and insane with the arise of the holy grail - "free to p(l)ay" system.
And we were stupid enaugh to join in. I also spend arround 200€ but you know what? This will end now...

quick money>paying customer - Ubisoft logic at its best!
Im looking forward to the day when Ubisoft finally managed to scare of all their customers!

spending 200euro for pixels is silly, and you can only blame yourself for doing that. I didn't pay anything and I got every card I wanted and stil got plenty seals/gold/wc left. I just play alot because I like the game. Meta reset is needed, deal with it. :cool:

iharderages
02-08-2014, 03:51 PM
Yes don't make old cards only avaible with wildcards ! Then all problems would be solved. The player who want to play the new mode can play it and the others can play old one. Let's start a petition. I think we should make a new forum thread for it.

Here i made a new thread for the petition:
http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/832746-Petition-Old-sets-should-be-still-avaible-for-gold?p=9528690#post9528690

Takeiteasy...
02-08-2014, 03:53 PM
Base Set 2 will bring alot of players to tournaments IF:

They will drasticly drop WC price of legacy cards.
If they decide to do this step newer players will want to play legacy becouse right now most of them is stopped by simply lack of cards.
While BS 2 tournaments is a carrot for them to play "they level the playground for old players"

So IF they drop WC price of legacy cards you will all see more players playing your old good "free for all" decks while in same time they will get more sells in shop.
Its win/win for players and UBI.

iharderages
02-08-2014, 03:58 PM
I took a quick look at everything yesterday and i said i liked it. Looking at it again this morning.... and i still like it.

Im happy with the base set 2 card list. I dont mind that at all

Hopefully the new ui works and doesnt crash :)

Having multiple formats will be very good for the game and having them in JPs and Swiss' is great.

the removal of achievements seems a bit off to me but not a big deal but could be something they could work on

only getting legacy/open format cards via WC could be back breaking for newer players and thats my only real bad impression by all of this. They need to have packs availble for older cards even if its just Emilios Packs or something maybe even a new type of pack or something. Newer players trying to build there BS2 decks might have to use some WC to get those cards and then cant spend the WC to get legacy/open format cards which in turn wont let them compete in those tournements. :(

but other then that I think this is a very positive thing for the game and people need to calm down and take some time to understand it.

I iam quite happy with it too. But the open format will be killed in time as u said it right. Here i made a new thread for a petition to let old sets be available for gold:
http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php...90#post9528690

uplay-is-fail
02-08-2014, 04:00 PM
Nice how they split us up in two groups:
The guys who never spend any money into this game celebrate the upcoming changes.
The guys who spend money into this game feel like they will be robbed.



...
I didn't pay anything
...

Thats the damn point!
Why did they support douchbags like you, who laugh at me, for supporting this game?

Support player who just want to play for free - rob the guys who actually spend money/ support the game.
WTF? Ubisoft?! Are you serious? This didnt even seems to be a good plan for youself...

tententai
02-08-2014, 04:02 PM
My feedback is that overall I like the idea of having several formats, one with all cards and one with new ones only.
That being said the "new cards only" format shouldn't be dumbed down, too simple. It should be a different experience but not a tutorial. The reason I play DoC instead of HS is the slightly superior strategic depth,
For example cards like fireball, using shapes on the grid, are good for the game, you shouldn't remove them.

sodapopX
02-08-2014, 04:07 PM
Nice how they split us up in two groups:
The guys who never spend any money into this game celebrate the upcoming changes.
The guys who spend money into this game feel like they will be robbed.



Thats the damn point!
Why did they support douchbags like you, who laugh at me, for supporting this game?

Support player who just want to play for free - rob the guys who actually spend money/ support the game.
WTF? Ubisoft?! Are you serious? This didnt even seems to be a good plan for youself...

But you didn't pay 200euros just to support the game, if you did, why are you even bothered? You're bothered because you spent the money to get them shiny pixels so you can wtfpwn have-nots, and now you whine because they will take it away from you. Whos a ****** here?

iharderages
02-08-2014, 04:09 PM
,,They will drasticly drop WC price of legacy cards.``

Where did you get this information?

uplay-is-fail
02-08-2014, 04:09 PM
Troll somebody else, i will ignore you now.
<°(((><

Takeiteasy...
02-08-2014, 04:20 PM
,,They will drasticly drop WC price of legacy cards.``

Where did you get this information?


Base Set 2 will bring alot of players to tournaments IF:

They will drasticly drop WC price of legacy cards.

that whole sentence...Keyword is IF

plikskin
02-08-2014, 04:21 PM
Here are my feelings about the new base set. I look at the most important dropped cards and how it will affect the meta, don't hesitate to tell me if you don't agree on something. ;)


Academy

Lose Rakshasa, Void Shade, Spellsteal Wizard and Hasafah. No more dispell, no more way to mill (also lose void tainted ritual), lose one of the best creature of the game. It will change the way we play Academy but still a lot of good creatures remain. I think it will only be spell heavy deck (favorite spell still there).

Haven

Lose tithe collector, holy praetorian, wolf captain and wolf guard. We will definitely see less haven deck with Sandalphon and the wolf captain gone. Cassandra fortune as we know it is also dead even if some very good fortunes remain (devotion, fountain of youth). Still a big nerf I think.

Inferno

Lose demented, imp jester, lilim, ravager, hikyu, abyssal lord. Losing a lot of creatures, even the legendary lilim, but still I think inferno will remain very strong. All 4 heroes have potential and there are a lot of excellent creatures remaining. Especially all the fortunes are good so I think we will see a lot of this faction. Especially, I think Ignatius mass rage could be very strong.

Necro

Lose lamasu,skeleton archer, soul-consuming lich and damran. Despite the lich, this is a huge buff for necro, I can assure you this is going to be one of the best faction in the game. Seria, fleshbane and ariana will all be very good !

Sanctuary

Lose sayama stalker, sayama spy, shanriya guard, wanizame, nyorai, sayama dune prowler and naga tide master. Such a HUGE nerf. I don't see how this faction will be playable from now on, except maybe honor binds us takana. Ishuma gone, most of the powerful creatures also, I think this is the end of Sanctuary.

Stronghold

Lose bramble beast and tainted orc. Ok it was already one of the strongest faction but now it will crush all the other. Stronghold basically lost nothing, juste tainted orc and Kelthor. Sacrifical altar and surprise attack are still there. I think it will be by far the most played faction in standard mode.

Neutral

No more dark assassin (rush nerf), magic peddler (no more unique spell), wandering bard, soothsayers (less deck stability), pao (rush nerf).

Neutral fortunes

No more inheritance, cosmic singularity, altar of shadows, broken bridge, campfire, crystal of power, pillage, altar of asha, cosmic realignment, tower of oblivion, throne of renewal, wasteland. Basically fortune combo deck will no longer exist. We will only see a few fortune to help in spell/creature-heavy deck.

Air spells

Lose lightning strike mainly. This magic school will be very hard to play because there are no more good cheap spells.

Dark

Lose shadow image and puppet master. I think this school of magic will be the best, it was already very good and all its best spells remain. Necro will definitely be played a lot.

Earth

Lose earthquake and earth's grasp (no more needed, except for shredder). Insect swarm and stone shield are still there though, so I think earth school is still quite good.

Fire

Lose fireball, armaggedon, (and FF wouhou ! ^^). Although it will lose some of its best spells I think fire will still be ok with mass rage and fire bolt.

Light

Lose sunburst. It was already weak and will only get weaker. It will mainly be used to dispel (cleansing light and maybe divine intervention).

Prime

Little buff here. All the best spells remain : dispel magic, mass dispel, teleport, time jump, town portal, void ripple.

Water

Nothing special to say. Lose some minor spells plus tsunami and clashing tides. But the geysers are still there so it's sufficient to be a good magic school.

Events

No more week of taxes and mana storm and weeks of austerity. So basically it won't change much as no one can block the other. But it will reduce the luck factor in early game so I think this is quite good. Path of the ancestors won't be that much needed without Ishuma so I think it's ok to drop it. Blind arbiter also without combo decks. Without mill and OTK celebrations wouldn't make much sens either. Market of shadows is good but the great hunt can kind of replace it. Week of training's disappearance will nerf haven even more. The other events dropped won't change much the meta.

trupiciel
02-08-2014, 04:26 PM
2014.02.08 saturday morning.

>>So, base set two details got announced last evening. Let's see the community reaction! What about the chat (http://mmdocking.com/chat/)?

[09:11] <bokkengro|lurk> hi truppy
[09:11] <bokkengro|lurk> this chat is dying
[09:11] <bokkengro|lurk> like the game

>>Yeah, sure ;) So guys, what are your first Base Set 2 impressions?

[09:29] <kirnon> I like it. I can give my reasons etc. but my gut says it caters to as wide an audience as they can and it is good.

>Gustav (i think)
"Keep in mind, this is a BASE set. There will be many more cards added. You are asking for a new City right away. Instead, you're looking at the foundation to the first building and going "This isn't enough for a city"."

[10:06] <Gustav> what does my gut say?.... i have no clue about doc being dead or not. But older players will have a rough time to keep their motivation up
[10:06] <trupi> and from the decline in jackpot pool we can conclude that only old players still play the game
[10:06] <Gustav> thats the impression from people i talk with in these days
[10:07] <Gustav> regarding the game

>>At the time of dispute with Gustav I found this great post on forums, concerning monetization and giving old players things to spend their money on.

>DowantasaurusRe
"Once you've dumped around 200-300 bucks into the game, you usually have almost everything available. So then what do you spend your money on?
Boosts then become useless, as do purchasing individual packs. A surplus of seals and gold begins to accumulate due to there not being effective ways of draining cash (how much gold you may have spent in World of Warcraft on repairs: this was a way to make it to where players couldn't just accumulate endless amounts of money).
Even if base set 2 did contain a bunch of new stuff, I'm betting that a lot of the old timers out there have more than enough seals to purchase a sizable chunk of packs.
So how do we solve this? You need to remove the limitation of how much money a player can spend on the game.
Let's take the new Ishuma Alternate Art card. It was a gorgeous piece of art, but priced at a hefty $50 USD - and only for an extremely limited time.
It would have made more sense, in my opinion, to offer it at a lower price point and make it a regular fixture in the shop. Hell, do a whole series of them. It can't be that expensive to pump out a single card and charge 15-20 bucks for it like a skin in League of Legends.
Maybe create a system where you can spend seals to make a card of your choice "foil". You would be surprised how far enthusiasts will go to "pimp out" their deck.

>>Oh, a postivie response to my question about the future of DoC after the BS2:
[10:37] <durendal100> its going to be more strategic than it is now
[10:37] <durendal100> looking good :P

>>sanderscc wrote about what Ubi screwing players who plan ahead:
"MTG will announce the unusable date of each expansion(usually around a year before), so the player can have a better plan on buying cards or opening packs and use them in "STANDARD" mode, the players even can sell the "OUT STANDARD" cards to other, therefore the change of expansions will not problem to them.

Ubi announce the unusable date of the old card set only two months earlier, it is very unfriendly to all the mmdoc player, because they have no idea that most of their cards will become "OUT STANDARD" after such a short time, they opened many packs and spent many wildcards on the "OUT STANDARD" cards, this action ruined their plan of how to play this card game."

>>cebularz shared his thoughts:
[10:51] <maly_drab> trupi i think bs2 is stepping back
[10:51] <maly_drab> as they removed pretty every deck more spell/fortune orientated from what i saw ( i did not spend much time on it though)
[10:51] <maly_drab> and i dont think its bad idea as now they have much room for new vision of fortunes/spells
[10:52] <maly_drab> but the problem is IF they are already testing new, further ideas of fortunes/spells or they just dont have it yet, and thus we will need to wait for mayor changes like 6 months or so
Now with bs2 i feel like we just lost all 1 year experience of different gameplans they created during all those expansions and we are pretty stuck to simple agro decks with some fortune/spell support or straight forward "control" deck that is anti-agro one

>>part bout change of meta to creature oriented and direction of game evolution:
[11:09] <durendal100> this game will be all about board control
[11:09] <durendal100> once u loose it you are in deep ;P
[11:12] <maly_drab> true
[11:13] <kirnon> Yea - but that is a good base line for expansions I think. They have stated that trying to be true to MM it needs to be quite creature based.

>>about releasing 5Towers so soon:
[11:15] <maly_drab> i think the biggest mistake Ubi done by far was this 5 Towers expansion very very fast just after FW
[11:15] <maly_drab> in FW we had alot cards to grind in swisses
[11:15] <maly_drab> and 5T was just supporting expansion
[11:16] <maly_drab> i think 5T should not be switched as a prize for wining swisses in the way they did it
[11:16] <maly_drab> maybe one "weekend with 5T swiss prizes " or something like that
(we can make it happen, vote here http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/832597)

>>comment from one of the VIP guys:
[11:45] <Hydro> meta based heavily on board control as far
[11:46] <Hydro> and less forgiving
[11:46] <trupi> do you think it's a good upgrade for doc?
[11:46] <Hydro> if it will make game more competetive - yes

>>to close up, a comment from ever-delivering Gigen aka TheJellyBrigade:

[14:17] <Gigen> ubisoft killed doc
[14:17] <Gigen> deal with it
[14:17] <Gigen> they are trying so hard to copy HS
[14:23] <Gigen> http://gigenille.altervista.org/s9qe0.png
[15:11] <Gigen> I play this game for about 3+ months. I have invested some money directly in the beginning because I knew that I will like this game for a long time.
[15:11] <Gigen> im disappoint son

>>and gigen's reddit trolling:
I can see the future guise... there will be a new base set every time they release new cards, because they cant balance ****... OP is right, the game is done for good now.

//

I'm fascinated with amount of constructive criticism and good ideas that people come up with, some even decided to go as far as creating new forum accounts to share their thoughts. Keep it up guys :)

WarlordThuran
02-08-2014, 04:30 PM
Ok, lets see, this is a first impression based on a number of test games. It should be noted that this is from the point of view of sanctuary, so wont have all that much to say about the other factions;

General points:

- This feels like MTG limited:

For those that dont know what it means; in MTG you have certain formats where you build decks from booster packs rather than from prebought cards, so it means that a lot of staples are not around in the same numbers, which impacts the value of other cards. It feels like limited in that there is very very little AOE in this format, with geyser suddenly becoming one of the best spells you can include in your deck, and forked lightning being absolutely insane. Since there isn't a lot of removal at all, it means that creature-flooding is way more viable and something like haven gets stronger due to the enemy actually having to chew through their melee and range guards, rather than tossing spells at them.

I would say this is ultimately a good thing, it means you can build up a board position, but it also means that stronghold is instantly one of the best decks simply because they get to keep almost all of their creatures, only missing tainted orc. Granted, blackskull vulture is a lot weaker without the stupid forbidden flame interaction, but it still puts some decks on the back foot, simply due to missing ways to deal with something like a war oliphant.

- Spell decks seems a lot weaker.

This goes without saying, and maybe its affected by how good sanctuary fortunes are, but it really feels that whenever you could go for spells, it would be better to just go for fortunes instead, which is a problem, although an "auras" deck might be viable with so little removal.


Sanctuary points:

Hero selection:

Seems very solid, both Shalan and Takana are already just shy of Tier 1, and noburu's ability gets a little better. Sadly, it seems like the lack of powerful spells makes noburu lose the main reason for playing him, and his relocate ability becomes a whole lot worse with people being able to flood the board at will and thus shutting your outmaneuver down, and rushing it also problematic without paos to finish the job.

Yukiko; Suffers from lack of special abilities and while sanctuary fortunes are good, i do feel like they are costed so cheaply as to make her extra point of fortune a bit irrelevant. Going takana or Shalan simply nets you a neat ability without hurting your abilities too much. She is solid, and can be an all-rounder, but i dont see her getting into tier 1.

Takana: Can only be built as a fortune deck due to missing a point of magic, which hurts a LOT during testing. That said, he does seem to be in a good position in that he has access to some nice fortunes and hidden dojo works well with his ability. Sadly, the honour creatures are still largely bad, even with his ability, and the removal of Wanizame is very very puzzling. It was the card that would really have enabled this deck to shine and it was the only truly solid honour creature in the game, and not even played as a full 4-of in many ishuma decks. Here is the thing, Kenshi used to be bad, not because of the meta, but because it's overcosted for what it does, and requires other creatures to be around for it to work. None of those issues have been adressed; its still overcosted, your creatures are still likely to die before turn 5, at which point almost anything can kill kenshi in one hit or one sacrificial altar (did i get around to mentioning how insane stronghold is in base set 2? Glad we have necro that keeps most of it's removal and now features some of the most powerful removal in the entire format with 4 banshees and 4 deathspitters bound to be in every single necro deck in the history of ever from now on, which is a shame, since deathspitter was really a card that could get the cut if tainted orc was too much, it just stands head and shoulder over any drop for that price in the game as things are now in my opinion).

Anyway, the other honour creature we have access to is kabuki-tei, which is decent, but the problem is that it has almost no synergy with Takana and is way better used in a shalan deck. So takana is likely to be focused on small creatures flooding the board with hidden dojo and honour binds us as the source of honour to power his ability. It's viable, but not very varied at all. The spellbased option could have been interesting, but really way too slow, as you still lose to stronghold fatties.

Shalan: Not much to say, he was already seeing play and while losing throne of renewal hurt him, letting him keep it would have been degenerate. As he stands, he is likely the best sanctuary hero for the new meta.Yes, he cannot do the huge turns that Takana can, but bouncing your own creatures for outmaneuver is vital now that Dune prowler is gone and truce becomes a very very powerful card in this deck, as it already was. Not much more to say, he has access to good creatures, good fortunes, good spell schools and doesn't need to waste a turn upping magic like takana does. I think that with the current lineup of creatures, this guy is going to be the best sanctuary hero and out best shot at tier 1, with takana sitting at the border between tier 1 and 2. You can build this guy as magic, you can build him as might, you can build him as fortunes and his ability will be relevant in most of those setups. I would not touch his creature selection right now, as he seems well-balanced, but as said above: Wanizame: it doesn't help or hurt shalan too much, as kabuki-tei would still be the honour of choise i think, but it would help make him more even with takana.

Noburu: Crap as mentioned above. Expensive ability that is now worse than before, spell schools that are heavily nerfed and not really creatures that play to his strenghts. If i wanted to play spells, i would go with shalan or yukiko most likely. Sanctuary also lacks the big creatures that could make this guy work in a control shell. Overall, he might get better with later expansions, or once someone cracks the right shell for him, but i feel he is likely the weakest of sanctuary heroes as it stands now.


Creatures:

1-drops

Shark guard....well...its what we had before, and 1-drops are not THAT exciting anyway.
Silver bowl spirit is also nice for more defensive decks, so there is a choise for a slot that doesn't need much choise anyway, quite happy there.

2-drops

Right now, the only viable option seems to be spring spirit.
Yes, stream singer works to remove spells or fortunes, but most of those are gone anyway, and even against the hypothetical water-auras deck (which could become a real thing with most big removal gone, so be careful, someone is going to make it work i feel), you only remove one of them outside of shalan bounce. It's simply not that great a creature and wouldn't even be played in open if it wasn't for ongoing fortunes absolutely dominating that format. She will get worse in the new meta and it bothers me that sanctuary only has a lone 2-drop available. If stream singer's stats were better, maybe, but right now, no.
My suggestion would be to include lucky fox as a 2-drop. It has decent stats, while still being weaker than spring spirit,and the extra fortune makes it a real option in fortune-based decks without affecting other decks in a huge way due to lack of truly big fortunes in the game in the same way as now.
As it stands now, this is perhaps the most boring category out of the entire creature selection, it needs something to not just be 4 copies of spring spirit in every single sanctuary deck.

A note of sayama stalker; Sad to see it go, but i can see why it's gone, just, give us an alternative.

3-drops

Oh my god....
This is insane! Really, I am not complaining, but you decided to let us keep ALL of our strongest 3-drops.
I would maybe have liked to see Sayama spy come back or shanrya guard, but as it stands, we got to retain ALL of our core 3-drops, and they are still very very solid, with syama champion now one of the best creatures in the format, and shinje warrior better in a creature-heavy enviroment. Putting a deck together will take some actual choise and while i see sayama champion as an automatic 4-of, having 5 playable 3-drops that arent completely bonkers by themselves wont get me complaining. Shame snow maiden is a lot weaker due to the exit of ishuma, so might drop out of usage, but its not bad per se.
Overall, i would leave this as it is, looks solid and my favorite category for sanctuary by far! Good job!

4-drops.

Urgh, WHY DID YOU HAVE TO REMOVE DUNE-PROWLER?!
Yes, I know I am complaining over going to 8 outmaneuvers from 12, but it was part of what allowed sanctuary to get going properly in the first place. Sanctuary relies on opening up lanes of attack and creaturing favourable trades as many of them cant fight point-for-point with the creatures of other decks, and removing a full third of our outmaneuver and one of our solid bodies at 4 just seems a bit misguided to me. With no ambush left and no nyorai sairensa, we lost a lot of lane control and i feel that removing the prowler might have been one nerf too much, hopefully we get a replacement in the next expansion, but it was already nerfed from boards getting flooded now and locking out outmaneuver options, so removing it seems wrong. I would personally like to see it back for the sake of giving sanctuary rush the ability to exsists in a world where the midgame will overrun it. We can't open up for paos to end the game anyway.
As for the other options;
Well, at least we still have wanizame as a solid....oh no we dont!

So, we are stuck;
with Kabuki-tei, which isn't a bad creature at all
Umei-kami, which still has subpar stats and abilities that have been made weaker by the removal of the most powerful spells and fortunes. Anything can block this and not even have to be scared of it. Either it needed 1 more power so it could at least threaten something, or it if it had honour it might also be playable, but as it is right now, its still not an exciting card, and while i might have considered it before, now it just seems like our worst 4-drop.
Venerable kappa: Still solid, still going to see play.
Sayama warden; good for shalan, not for much else, stats are still those of an oliphant, which costs 2 mana less!

4-drops really needs another option for decks, especially with midrange coming up. I would say, if we can't have dune prowler, at least give us wanizame back, it would mean that we have 3 solid options, with warden for the shalan decks and wanizame for the takana decks, whereas Umei-kami really doesn't have a shell at all that would love it right now, especially with the lack of sideboards. You can also give us prowler back, although I do feel that giving both prowler and wanizame might be overkill, although with shalan being one of the desiderable heroes and him liking both kabuki-tei and warden, it might even be possible without causing any real issues, as takana would like wanizame anyway so it leaves maybe yukiko to use prowler, a deck which doesnt really like any of the current 4-drops.

5-drops:

Another category that seems to stop just short of being interesting.

First of all, Letting us keep Raya seems like overkill, but it does look like you guys want the one unique creature to be truly amazing, and ishuma missing will make her a little weaker, so i guess its ok, and she works really well against creature-heavy strategies and with shalan. So yeah, i guess i can see why she was picked over sairensa, especially as nyorai isn't a very exciting card as it effectively doesnt actively do anything once its in play, so raya is the more fun option.

Coral priestess; We all know this will be 4-of in every deck, it was always out best 5-drop and that hasn't changed.
Mizu-kami: its...ok i guess? The stats are still not exciting, but magic shield is a cute little ability, that makes it interesting and an option.
kenshi: Weak weak weak. Honour 2 might find it a home in takana, but for 5 mana you can impacting effects and it doesn't deliver, Giving it an extra point of strenght might do the trick, but right now i might play them in takana, but i would feel bad about doing so over just running kabuki-tei, dojos, and HBS.
Sand-same. ?!?! ?! What?! ok, i get that it has a solid solid body on it, and it might be playable as a big dork, but that is my problem with it; its BORING, it's just a dork and it has no abilities attached to it which also means it doesnt really feel like a sanctuary creature in the first place. It's playable, but it's boring.

Opinion; overall this seems like a boring category with no real creatures to get excited about or options.

My suggestion would be to remove sand kame or kenshi, and instead toss in naga tide master. It has a solid body, which makes it an able finisher for the curve of a deck, and it has outmaneuver without letting us curve out the maneuvers. If you put this girl in, outmaneuver is back to having a solid presence, while being a high-cost investment that usually takes up an entire turn. its fun to play it with shalan, and it opens up tossing in wanizame while leaving out dune prowler. Everybody wins and its an actual option in deckbuilding over coral priestess.

Sayama predator would be cute, but sadly it wouldn't work without ambush, a shame : / And kappa shoya isn't very exciting either. So I would probably leave in the kenshi and get rid of sand kame in favour of tide master to make the 5-drops stop being so boring.


Btw, would it kill you guys to include one of our big expensive dudes? Sacred kirin could maybe work in this new board-heavy metagame, without being good enough to be a staple, but it would make some timmies happy out there.


Fortunes;

Ok, wont sum up all of these like i did with creatures. Overall I feel that Sanctuary fortunes are in a good position right now.
Cards like Sinkhole and truce makes you feel clever and interacts well with the creatures available and honour binds us is that one big effect fortune decks and takanas want to finish the game with, while battle trance was always solid for tutoring and feels good to use without being so inexpensive as to feel cheap like the bards did and you have to wait a turn or use a hero ability to draw it, i like this card for the health of the game.
Actually, a lot of them follow this theme: Quirky, fun, and potentially usable without being broken. Underwater fortress and wukiko's shrine are also two cards that fit into a variety of decks and seem solid in the metagame. Truce is one of the best cards right now, but feels so rewarding to do right, i would not want to see it go away and it sets people up for making misplays with it, which is always good; it's not always pure advantage. Noburu's insight could even end up being used in aggressive strategies. Whirlpool would have been nice to have, but i guess sinkhole is just healthier to have around. Challenge hall could be fun, and road to enlightenment is also solid. Overall i think the fortunes are the part of sanctuary i am most happy with, they feel fun, they take some finesse, and are playable without being ridiculously overpowered. Bravo! No changes needed here!



Ok, that was my first pass at sanctuary, and didn't get to cover spells yet, even though water seems really really strong with geyser and ice spikes. I do wonder why icy fear is there as it is just a plain bad card and could probably replaces with something else, but overall it has removal, it has control, and i can't wait to get to work on making a deck with the water buff spells! :D Will edit this thread as i move on and get more testing done.

Oh, and of course, buildings; Hidden dojo is a solid building that also fits well with takana, while the others wont mind fielding it either, so I am pretty happy with it. It does maybe seem to like overkill to include war tent as it was already one of the best with the cards that stronghold have, and it makes their quick attack better than pao used to be, which is a HUGE deal!

iharderages
02-08-2014, 04:37 PM
Here is a poll where you can vote what opinion you have about the new concept for the old set card prices: http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/832772-Petition-Old-sets-should-be-still-avaible-for-gold

uplay-is-fail
02-08-2014, 04:40 PM
Dont get me wrong, im not total against new formats.

But this is no print trading card game here. We have no option to sell cards we didnt need anymore.
And thats the point why so many dudes are very angry. They paid a lot for cards which they cant use now in the new format, without the chance of selling them.
If there where a function where i can sell cards and get for example 3/4 of the current wildcard prize back ... everything would be fine for me.

And no! The infernal pit is no option ... the whole thing is just ridiculous.

planeswalker17
02-08-2014, 04:42 PM
Did they say anything about the format for ladder duels? If it is going to be open or just standard?

I don't remember if they mentioned it.

newkruemel
02-08-2014, 04:48 PM
A question: Will you upgrade the WC costs of BS2 cards to BS1 levels once it is released? I.e. all commons 1 WC, uncommons 3 WC and so on. Or do you still have to pay up to 20 WCs for a rare that used to be in Five Towers?

By the way, I am really worried about blowouts caused by the unique creatures. It seems like the new meta will be all about creature decks and either of the unique creatures easily dominates the board. No (cheap) way to tutor them anymore so finding your unique adds a ton of luck to the outcome of a match.

Heroesfan123
02-08-2014, 04:51 PM
I'd like to see two changes in BS2 list:

1. Dhamiria=>Xorm switch

Dhamiria's structure remains largely unaffected save for the two epic spells. She still has Hellfire Maniac, Insect Swarm,(strongest AoE in BS2) Void Arbiter, Lurker in the Dark, Chaos Lacerator, Juggernaut, DOOM BRINGER... This is too much IMHO.

2. Decay Spitter cut

With low cost spells nerfed hard, Necro still has Vampire Knight, Untamed Wraith, Atropos, Banshee, and the traditional high-health blockers, now even harder to remove. Decay Spitter would be overkill.

Fakirbocko
02-08-2014, 04:57 PM
and maybe leave set 1 cards buying for gold for ppl under level 50, becouse they just start this game and they need cards or something like that ?

Aranarth78
02-08-2014, 04:59 PM
Way less frustrating stall / lock / mill decks, I like where it goes. It removes variety, sure, but I feel this base is a better starting point to improve upon. And with most of the rush cards removed, decks will more easily include all 3 components: creatures, spells and fortunes. From my point of view, it will be more interesting.

Fortunes got the most serious hit and I think it needs to be repopulated quickly, with less neutral and more faction specific ones, but try to add more diversity (not 32507 necro fortunes to bring back creatures, be creative ! :p).

Im not sure about Mass Rage being part of BS2: It's a huge game changer, and if opponents doesn't have access to Light or Primal spells, they only have Price of the Void to deal with it. And unless you add Bo3 with sideboard, most decks will have to carry this pricey fortune (sure, with inclusion of Night of the Rising Moon, it is less of a problem). EDIT: oh right I forgot to include Water for Focused Mind, not a bad list of counter, after all, I suppose.

Games lasting longer, Necropolis seems too strong now, with Atropos and multiple fortunes to bring him and/or Decay Spitters back over and over again in a "creature meta"... I can see Ariana being S tier, especially with her ability and strong spell schools which can deal with anything. Anyway thanks for Plague Bearer making it to BS2. I love it. :D

Haven seems so weak now... I think Wolf Captain should be included in a slightly nerfed way, like starting 1/0/4, or increasing attack only, not retaliation, or capping it to +2/+2, something like that. With the removal of Week of Training, ressource accelerators, Praetorian, and strong fortunes, not including that beautiful redhead is a crime. :p

Stronghold hold it strong (couldn't resist, I'm so weak :(), too strong in fact: War Tent + Blackskull Shredders, Spellmashers in a meta that favor enchant creatures, Sacrificial Altar + Vultur Riders, and Famous Last Blow to deal with almost anything. Wow ! Not to mention Goblin Scout is the new DA but harder to kill, being ranged. :p

It seems to me that Sanctuary got the best selection of fortunes: Truce is nothing short of amazing, Frozen Maze got stronger, Honour Binds Us even without Takana will be feared, especially since the removal of Fireball make it safer to pack creatures.

In fact, I think that stacking creatures will be the new favored way to position creatures, no Fireball (only Geyser), and it protects against Chain and Forked Lightnings.

Thinking of which, with current spells selection, water is the new fire: Geyser (no Fireball), Icy Weapon, Ice Armour, Shalassa's Blade (no Fiery Weapon nor Inner Fire), Ice Spikes (oh wait, Fire Blast is in ! Wow !). By the way, Ice Armour seems a bit too strong, not to mention you included Sentinel of the Ages: nasty combo to deal with. I was about to say: put Ice Shell instead of Ice Armour, but it's in already xD. And with Focused Mind to deal with Mass Rage and Hellfire Maniac, it's as strong as ever. Seria, come back, I love you ! :p

Toramarusama
02-08-2014, 05:17 PM
And they drop Kelthor and Sandalphon.

I'm up for Standard. This made my day.

SpaceElephant
02-08-2014, 05:55 PM
Hey guys, thanks a lot for your feedback and thanks for watching the stream yesterday!

We are taking notes here, there's a lot of good comments, and we will pass your feedback to our design team, this is the real goal of this thread.

SpaceOlliphant

okaysimon
02-08-2014, 06:02 PM
i don't think it's a good a idea to cut off most usual card. This will not make it fun. More strict and less possible combination made me no interest to play it any more. I hate this changes.

matewu
02-08-2014, 06:04 PM
I like the split to two formats - more variety.

I dont like that cards for open will be no longer in shop - I find it problematic and not right if open will be viable format.

And last: ishuma issue: if u rotate u shoulndt sell outfit. Im pissed off like rest who buyed alternate alt. Ifit would be yukiko everything would be ok!

kamijisaca
02-08-2014, 06:12 PM
On the card pool for BS2:


It has a good "value" in comparison with other sets, it doesn't have a high numbers of useless cards, and seems to be a good entering point for new players, as it is much more simplistic compared with what we had before.

But, this "dumbing down" isn't for my taste, the nerf to spells and fortunes, not only promotes a shallow meta, revolving around creature bashing, and dis-virtues the importance of positioning of creatures, the main selling point of mmdoc, at least for me. Plus it sends a message about the future of the game, true or not, at this point I'm led to believe that open, a format that had a lot of viable strategies won't be getting much support in the future, and that standard will be 2 or 3 strategies with different flavoured versions, ultimately making the game easier to substitute with the competition.

On the card choice, I'm only going to comment on Inferno, as this is the faction that I've invested more and played. I feel that the faction lost the all offensive fell (Ravager, Altar of Destruction) and at the same time lost the ability to take punishment (Lilim, Abyssal Lord), I'm not going to say that this is for the best or worst, and if it will be balanced but the lack of "blockers" and not that many offensive options preoccupies me.



On the implementation:


I find the ideas of a simpler format, a more friendly set and set for new players and draft great, but I cant accept the cost for it.

People have put money and time in this game, they accepted to pay for this services even knowing that they would eventually end when it stopped being profitable, and be left with nothing, they accepted the premium prices (even compared to the competition) you asked for (15€ wouldn't even buy 10 packs of the latest expansion, and less than that it is just a pathetic deal), and you show no respect for these people.

You only notify them with 2 months of advance that there will be a rotation.

You hide the format that they invested on (open) behind a pay wall (at least taking into account what was revealed), meaning that those that have all they want will still have to deal with a format with a poor player base, those that don't have all they want get punished by pay wall and poor player base, and new players get to deal with pay wall they have to jump to play open. In sum new players will have to empty their wallets and soul to play open, and older players see their investment devalued.

You take away achievements that people have put worked and money on.

You take old booster packs of the market, even considering that this game is digital and so there are no technical problems for maintaining the older products.


It was announced that you would be looking at this tread, so I would much like to know what policies are you thinking of implementing to compensate the people that have put money and time into your game, if there are any, because at this point it seems that people, that until now, supported your game will be punished for it, and you don't seem to care, plus you seem to not be trying to make the best game you can, not only that but willing to compromise its quality for the possibility of some extra profit.

I really like mmdoc, but at this point I'm feeling that I should cut my losses and give a try to the competition, I truly hope that you will do something that will make me think otherwise (at the very least show me that BS1 cards will be obtainable in a reasonable fashion).

EndlessRamble
02-08-2014, 07:07 PM
Cards they need to add back in:
Tithe Collector: Haven has no playable 1 drop at the moment, lol?

Holy Praetorian: Why was this removed, wasn't 'guard' haven's gimmick anyways? Is melee guard 2 too strong in BS2 brainless slugfest? That's kind of a problem if true

Void Shade/Void Tainted Ritual: Without all the stall and board clear, why remove mill as an archetype when it will have to be purely creature centric like DoC themselves said they wanted it? Talk about inconsistent design decisions

Wanizame: Why was this card removed? Really that strong? This was a perfectly balanced creature for decks like Takane and makes perfect sense in sanctuary.

Broken Bridge: A very balanced card with tons of play potential, and at least you'll have SOMETHING in the game that punishes lane stacking

Cosmic Realignment: Not a broken card at all without singularity and stall, just an actual reason for creature decks to go up to 4 fortune for hand control or pseudo-draw

Altar of Asha: Probably the most perfectly balanced of the unique fortunes, why was it removed? Once again actually gives a reason to up fortune. Also completes the 'cycle' of unique fortunes by giving neutral one

Lightning Strike: This was added because air magic was unplayable because it had absolutely no viable early game spells. Now you take it again? How was this card difficult for new players to understand?

Fireball: When fire school's power caps out at ice spikes you know you hit it too hard. Fireball was like the FIRST card you learned to play around as a new player, why was it removed from BS2? Now what is to stop people from filling the board with as many creatures as they can? Talk about dumbing down

Sunburst: Light school is a joke right now, add SOMETHING useful to it. The spell list for light right now makes babies cry and mothers gnash thier teeth.

Sebster1618
02-08-2014, 07:16 PM
Could the devs please clarify what exactly is meant by 'Base Set One' in the original post/FAQ?

After reading through this and other threads I get the impression some people think BS1 is everything currently available and others think it's just 'Reinforcement Packs".

Thanks

Strandly
02-08-2014, 07:22 PM
So what sets are legal in this "standard" format? JUST this second base set? That would be stupid as hell if so.

hansohans
02-08-2014, 07:27 PM
Here is a poll where you can vote what opinion you have about the new concept for the old set card prices: http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/832772-Petition-Old-sets-should-be-still-avaible-for-gold

Nice idea! Hope they will see how the community has voted...

Dreamer117
02-08-2014, 07:28 PM
Global Overview
I think the metagame will move heavily towards creature based decks, and a constant war to maintain board control. With that in mind, Necro and Inferno get a headstart with creatures like Decay Spitter and Hellfire Maniac.

We'll see the revival of some heroes in competitive play, including Fleshband and Ariana as well as Takana. Kat will see more play too I believe.

Dhamiria will make a strong case for herself with her powerful ability and the lack of AoE removal. Morgan and Kieran will probably see their strength increase too.

Creatures -
Academy:
The creatures here keep to the core of the current units IMO, dropping some of the cheapest ones in terms of strength (Void Shade) whilst keeping the utilitary ones (Scholar, Rakshasa Skirmisher) that allow them to survive rush decks. Overall we might not see altogether NEW creature compositions though. Any nerf to their creature base at this point would probably result in them being underpowered however, at least until subsequent expansions, so keep that in mind.

Haven:
Yeah... No more Wolf Captains... That hurts. We might be getting to a point where Haven will have some trouble asserting dominance on the board using creatures. Spells will no doubt be needed now more than ever.

Inferno:
To be honest, a rather strong lineup here. The Hellfire Maniacs will still go strongly as a board control device, and so will the Bloaters and Doom Bringers. Lilim will be replaced by Lashing Lilims, and Juggernauts will still see a lot of play. Would'be liked to see Demented put back in, as they are underplayed right now and might make for a fun card in the absence of Xorm, wherein they were a bit strong for a creature Meta. Abyssal Worm is a lot better than Abyssal Lord in terms of fairness, especially with the lack of heavy removal.

Necro:
Fairly strong lineup of creatures overall. I think Necro creature decks will be hard to contend with, seeing the lineup (Neophyte Lich, Moonsilk Skeleton, Vampire Knight, Untamed Wraiths and Decay Spitters together with Atropos). Archlich will be seeing a little more play competitively IMO and Ratkin will take a bit of Trapper Spider's slack.


Sanctuary:
Sanctuary is cruelly lacking in 2 drops in terms of creature, and I think the exclusion of the Sayama Stalker really drives a wedge in their ability to gain any board control early on. They have basically nothing that can compete with Neophyte Liches and Succubus (2/0/4 shooters). Other than that, we may finally see some play for Unmei-Kami and I think overall they have a fair and balanced lineup compared to other factions.

But they NEED their Sayama Stalkers included back in...

Stronghold:
No more Tainted Orcs is the biggest take on this. Also, in the absence of Kelthor, the Enrage and Bloodthirst creatures can finally be used as a threat without being abused. Blackskull Vultures will still be a major player, along with Oliphants, and we might see more Dreamwalkers. Strong lineup still without the crushing Orcs... Zefiria will still see a lot of gameplay, especially since Magic Resist is becoming a lot more rare. Plus strong ability.

Neutral:
Moon Phoenix, Shi-no-Shi... That's 2 epics that will see play, but in select decks. Void Wraith will still see a Mass Rage synergy, but without the possibility of bringing them back from the grave with Light of Tomorrow. Lesser Light Elemental will be needed for some decks' defenses.

Events -
An overall weak lineup... Besides Week of Mercenaries and Night of the Rising Moon, people are gonna have to get creative with what they want to put in their decks. Predict those 2 cards will see a LOT of gameplay though compared to others. Time of War and Great Hunt will probably see play in all-in rush decks a little more.

Fortunes -
Academy:
Love it. Favorite Spell and Memory Lapse will be fun to play. Severed Fate might be a little overused but with the absence of Void Shades and a lot of AoE removal, it might pan out.

Haven:
Fortified Outpost is a big card that's missing... Overall, besides Cassie's Devotion, a fairly weak lineup.

Inferno:
We'll see how it turns out, but the Inferno lineup seems ok to me. Would've liked Altar of destruction to reappear.

Necro:
Seria's Legion and Last Order will see a lot of play. Some possibly fun combos with neutral fortunes like Early Grave, Altar of Wishes and Death is not the End might be played.

Sanctuary:
Sanctuary WILL need fortunes like Frozen Maze and Challenge Hall to survive early game in a lot of games.

Stronghold:
Surprise Attack and Sac Altar will still go strong. Might see more Kat Decks.

Neutral:
With the absence of Week of Taxes, I predict most decks running Goldpile.

Heroes - I think Fleshbane and Asalah will see a lot of play. We might see Ariana again too! Predict a strong Takana. NO MORE KELTHOR! lol.

Spells -
Air:
Thank god for the absence of Lightning Srike. Lightning Bolt and Chain Lightning are back though. Forked Lightning is gonna see a LOT of play with the absence of Armageddon and Tsunami.

Dark:
Strong lineup, and I think it is good that Shadow Image and Puppet Master did not make the cut. Enthrall is counterable for primal so it'll be ok. Very strong against creatures though. Might make for strong board control.

Earth:
Insect Swarm by itself is fine, with the absence of Earthquake. Failry weak lineup though IMO.

Fire:
Lack of Fireball will change the Metagame a lot. I'm happy to see Immolation mae the cut, and it'll surely revive Immolation Asalah.

Light:
A strong switch from the Offensive spells that were used (Sunburst). It's more defensive now, so it'll be nice to see how people use it. Martyr will probably see a little play. Divine Intervention is the main star here.

Prime:
Lineup is fine.

Water:
We may yet see OTK decks again! Lack of Tsunami might be a mistake, as it was a fair AoE removal, with it not influencing flyers.

VampFury
02-08-2014, 07:36 PM
Lots of opinions.

Here is more of my feedback: http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/832836-Base-set-2-and-DoC-*ULTIMATE-FEEDBACK*?p=9529030#post9529030

NicWester
02-08-2014, 08:28 PM
Dont get me wrong, im not total against new formats.

But this is no print trading card game here. We have no option to sell cards we didnt need anymore.
And thats the point why so many dudes are very angry. They paid a lot for cards which they cant use now in the new format, without the chance of selling them.
If there where a function where i can sell cards and get for example 3/4 of the current wildcard prize back ... everything would be fine for me.

And no! The infernal pit is no option ... the whole thing is just ridiculous.
Factually incorrect on all points. All of them. You're cherry-picking data just so that you can run with the cool kids and nay-say, and it's irritating as hell. I expect that from someone commenting on a Yahoo article.

1) You want a way to sell cards, but then say the Pit doesn't count because... Because it doesn't sell for enough? You get 50 cents for a rare at most brick and mortar stores. There's no Black Lotus in this game. I wish there was a way I could get 3/4 of the cost of a card I sell to a brick and mortar, but any store that does that is going to go out of business really, really fast.

2) You can't use the old cards? Factually incorrect. Read Open format. Why is everyone having so much trouble with that? "No one is going to play it because everyone is going to play Standard, except "everyone" [weasel words] hates Standard so no one will play it." You're literally arguing against yourself with that view. They're not erasing your collection. If you want to play Sandalockmillcontroldslowpokemassrageotkbuzzwordsn ettwopointoh, you can still do this thing. This is a thing that is allowed, and tournaments on alternating days will be Open. It's not a fading thing, it's an ALWAYS ON thing.

So, folks, please. Maybe instead of "THIS SUCKS I'M OUT!" Maybe you could try providing real feedback that will be of actual use. Maybe say WHY a card should be included or removed instead of just throwing a tantrum.

gabusan
02-08-2014, 08:37 PM
I dont understand why people complains about a new format. Arent we bored of playing the same game mode over and over? Look, your previous decks, the ones you spend lot of effort to get, will still be playable in the old format. What is your complain, that there will be different game modes that will requiere a different deck composition? Is it that hard to grab your cards and create a new deck for the new game mode? You have all of them already.

I cant wait for base set 2, seems so exciting!

Strandly
02-08-2014, 09:18 PM
What will happen with Base Set One achievements?

Achievements regarding “out of print” cards will be removed. We will add new achievements! If there are still Base Set One achievements you want to complete, now is the time to do it.

I burned probably close to a thousand cards in the pit getting foils for the BS1 50 foils (10 cards away) and foil deck (halfway done) achievements. If you guys hadn't already screwed players with the wildcard nerf a couple months ago I'd be amazed someone would screw their playerbase so hard like this. You people are truly incompetent.

If you're going to remove any achievements you need to give players who were working on them the rewards.

uplay-is-fail
02-08-2014, 09:36 PM
Factually incorrect on all points. All of them. You're cherry-picking data just so that you can run with the cool kids and nay-say, and it's irritating as hell. I expect that from someone commenting on a Yahoo article.

Great way to start a discussion with me. Why you dont said simply "you are an idiot!"?


1) You want a way to sell cards, but then say the Pit doesn't count because... Because it doesn't sell for enough? You get 50 cents for a rare at most brick and mortar stores. There's no Black Lotus in this game.

I never said i want to have real money for it.


I wish there was a way I could get 3/4 of the cost of a card I sell to a brick and mortar, but any store that does that is going to go out of business really, really fast.

It was just an example and i still dont think its a bad one. You argue they will go out of business? Ok an other suggestion...
How about an auction house where we can trade cards and Ubisoft get 10% of any transaktion. Thats more than they ever got for a print version and they didnt even have to print actually.


2) You can't use the old cards? Factually incorrect. Read Open format.

I never said you cant use them generally, i said you cant use them in the new format.



You know what? How about reading carefully before you try to defame me?

punkUser
02-08-2014, 10:02 PM
I have the factual reality of a currently robust meta
Here's the rub: the current meta isn't working well enough as the game is losing players (probably quickly). If you think it's "robust", that's great but it's not working for the majority of people. Thus you either ride the "current meta" into the ground with you, me and a few others still playing a year from now or you have to significantly shake things up. Whether or not you agree on how they decided to do the latter, it is clearly necessary, so arguing for the status quo is going to fall on deaf ears.



As for the dominance of stall decks that is laughable
Don't morph what I said: I said "too dominant" relative to where I think the meta should be (obviously you disagree, but that's why there's a discussion). As others have said, stall decks have basically zero interaction between players... it's effectively dice rolls with the "search your library" cards and singularity making it even more brainless. In my opinion those sorts of games should be rare, and if they are common enough that people have to build counters for that into all of their decks there's a problem. Those games are rarely fun regardless of who wins and you'll lose players rapidly if they are at all common.



You have to strike a balance between cards good against spells, fortunes, and creatures, or sacrifice one aspect to strengthen another matchup. However If you know the only impact cards you will be facing are creatures then the decision making becomes pretty obvious and variety suffers.
Sure, but again that's just a strawman. If they had removed all AoE/row spells or something you'd have more of an argument, but they haven't.

Anyways, as I've said I'm fine with some more removal in there and I'm totally for still treating "open" as a first class mode (i.e. have packs for it in the store), but the game clearly needs a shakeup if you still want to be playing it in a year. And I doubt anyone who has spent money - myself included - would be happier with that outcome.

Atban06
02-08-2014, 10:17 PM
what are the "out of print" cards?

szpeniu
02-08-2014, 10:32 PM
Excuse me, where is Akane ??? This hero is not OP !!!

NicWester
02-08-2014, 11:07 PM
what are the "out of print" cards?
Basically everything not in Base Set 2 (and subsequent expansions).

They'll still be available for wildcards, but not for gold. Hopefully they change their mind and leave the expansions in the store for a little while longer--like, maybe until the first post-Base Set 2 expansion has been released--so folks will have something to spend gold on. Thing is, if you're a new player you're going to want the new Base Set, but if you've been around a while you've probably got enough of the new Base Set that spending gold doesn't seem like value. Removing a gold sink might be more trouble than it's worth--If you have all the Base Set 2 you need because you've been playing for a while, you're not going to spend gold on BS2, and can't spend it on the next expansion if it's Seals Only, meaning you won't have anything to spend gold on until the NEXT-next expansion. That could be bad for the in-game economy.


Great way to start a discussion with me. Why you dont said simply "you are an idiot!"?
Funny, I thought that was exactly what I did. I'm sorry if I was unclear on the matter.


I never said i want to have real money for it.
Nor did I. You said the Pit didn't count, but didn't bother to say why, so I was forced to assume that it's because you don't get much gold out of it. I brought up the amount you get by selling cards back to a brick and mortar to show that you don't get much from any sellback. Fifty gold for a common and a thousand for a rare isn't a lot, but it adds up.


It was just an example and i still dont think its a bad one. You argue they will go out of business? Ok an other suggestion...
How about an auction house where we can trade cards and Ubisoft get 10% of any transaktion. Thats more than they ever got for a print version and they didnt even have to print actually.
That could work. But that's the thing--You didn't propose that. You just shouted and refused to give feedback. You said the whole thing was the suckiest suck to ever suck a suck without actually adding something to the conversation. "I hate it." Why? "Because I do." Alright, thanks, we'll take that into consideration. Do you think that sort of feedback helps at all? I take it you've never been part of a focus group.


I never said you cant use them generally, i said you cant use them in the new format.
That's called cherry-picking. You said they can't be used in the new format, while trying to minimize the fact that they can still be used in the Open format. Speaking of focus groups, you know those AT&T commercials? Let me channel my inner AT&T guy: "What's better? More formats, or fewer formats?" The new format doesn't replace the existing one, they co-exist alongside one another. They compliment one another. You can do both. This isn't an either/or thing, it's a both/and.


You know what? How about reading carefully before you try to defame me?
Well how about you add something to the conversation instead of just posting a knee-jerk Mr Horse "Nossir, I don't like it."


I burned probably close to a thousand cards in the pit getting foils for the BS1 50 foils (10 cards away) and foil deck (halfway done) achievements. If you guys hadn't already screwed players with the wildcard nerf a couple months ago I'd be amazed someone would screw their playerbase so hard like this. You people are truly incompetent.

If you're going to remove any achievements you need to give players who were working on them the rewards.
They said they were going to add new achievements. My assumption is that there will be mirroring to replace some older ones. What I'm curious about is, assuming there's mirroring, will we unlock them a second time? So the achievement for hitting level 10, let's just say--once it's removed and a new one is in its place, do we get it again? Hopefully, but doubtfully. Although I could sure use the extra gold/seals/wildcards if they did :P

What I'm hoping is that the old ones don't get erased entirely, just locked for future players. So they would still exist for posterity. I never realized how many I'd gotten until I looked just now, and I'd hate to see the little guys go... Maybe even keep the old ones unlocked and available, but remove the rewards for them? So that later on when I finish off the Void Rising set through wildcards I get the shiny little button that shows I did it, but not the box of VR that would give me a sizeable advantage over a new player who just came into the game after the release.


Excuse me, where is Akane ??? This hero is not OP !!!
Umm... Akane is right under Myranda. So, evidently, they don't think she's OP either.

OneShot013
02-08-2014, 11:28 PM
I don't really have a problem with the balance changes, simply because you can use whatever cards you want in open format. The thing that bothers me though is the losing of the BS1 achievements.

I feel as if newer players will be discouraged from playing this game because they feel as if gathering cards from BS1 would have been a complete waste of time, even if you can still use them in open format. I don't think that telling the community to scramble to pick up the cards they need for achievement purposes before the changes are implemented is not the best way of doing it. Depending on how long you've been playing, completing the set before late March would take an incredible amount of time, money, or both. In addition to that, making it so the only way to unlock those cards through the Altar of Wishes isn't really a solution to that, because getting all of the cards you need would take an exorbitant amount of wild cards.

What I would suggest (for what its worth) is one of two things. Someone else already said it, but I think it would be a good idea to put the cards from BS1 into its own separate pack in the shop, almost like a "banned cards" pack. This would accomplish two things: people who are close to getting achievements for BS1 can find a spot to buy them, and people who want to create a competitive open format deck will have the means to do so. Another alternative would be to somehow reward players for investing in BS1, but who haven't reaped the rewards from the achievements. This isn't an optimal solution, and the process for doing so would probably be complicated, but just deleting the BS1 achievements outright and making players think that they have wasted their time would be a huge mistake.

Chris_Stormwind
02-08-2014, 11:39 PM
Actualy I'm quite satisfied with the changes. OP cards like ""The might of Nature" and Gazal are out :). So lets get Base Set 2 coming.

x.Lykan.x
02-09-2014, 12:14 AM
I don't know if it's been answered but what will happen to our ELO? Will it stay the same? And what about ELO of inactive players?

uplay-is-fail
02-09-2014, 12:20 AM
NicWester ...why did you get personel and insult me?
I will not let you trolling me, go on and try somewhere else.
<°(((><

NicWester
02-09-2014, 12:33 AM
--Creatures--
Depending on what the design goal of Base Set 2 was, you might want to remove Void Wraith from the base set (and maybe reintroduce it in an expansion).

If the goal was to remove no-brainer automatic 4-of cards, then definitely take it out. The new meta of the game will be creature-heavy for at least as long as it takes to release an expansion, which means any competitive deck is going to have four Void Wraiths to act as chump blockers that will do damage. There are only a couple ways of dealing with them that don't involve taking three damage and wasting a spell or creature's attack. You've got Mass Rage, Decay Spitter, Shared Agony, Homebound Winds, and Town Portal, as well as Immolation for any Wraiths on the board when you cast it--but any Wraith placed afterwards will zap you (barring a Time Jump, but if they Time Jump after casting Void Wraith when Immolation is on the field, you probably weren't going to lose that match anyway).

If the goal is to emphasise careful positioning and planning, then maybe still remove Void Wraith, but put it in later. The thing is, right now it doesn't reward you for positioning, but punishes you for trying to re-position yourself around it. Like, were it Anchored, it would be a fair play since you could move around to avoid the damage. But, currently, if you move whoever is in front of the Wraith, the Wraith will just follow the highest-attack creature on your board. There's no strategic way to dodge this card, just a straight-forward "smash it and move on" mentality.

If you need a neutral creature to replace it with, I'd say Dark Wood Treant since it fulfils that same role of being a wall that slows your opponent, but without the drawback that a player is punished for dealing with him. Plus, they're the same cost and rarity, so that's a nice bit of serendipity.



I already mentioned Imperial Crossbowman earlier, but I like the sound my keyboard makes when I type, so here's a quick repeat: It's easily the weakest of the 1-drops and has no upside beyond being a creature that you can play on the first turn if you don't have a Gold Pile in your hand. The 2/1/2 1-drops have solid, efficient stats, Goblin Scout being ranged gives it a strong advantage that is balanced by its low survivability, and Academy's 1-drops are extremely powerful. But the lowly Crossbowman does the least damage of any creature without Cannot Attack, while at the same time without any survivability to compensate. Maybe if it had 3 defense? At least then it could soak one small hit (such as one from a 1- or 2-drop) and still fire back next turn, but at that point it's an entirely new card all together. The only positive thing it had in its favour was that Imperial Crossbowman would be boosted by Week of Training, but now that doesn't exist in Standard, so...

That leaves Tithe Collector and Imperial Sentinel as candidates for Haven 1-drop. Tithe Collector is the stronger of the two, since it allows you to jump the curve at the start of the game, and it's certainly unique and feels different from the vanilla 2/1/2 creatures that other factions have. But, on the other hand, it's in just about every Haven deck that exists, so if the design goal is to change the meta, keeping it in would run counter to that. Imperial Sentinel is a solid card and provides utility for Haven even after its stats aren't relevant any longer--Even going so far as to fill a role that was vacated when Holy Praetorian was removed.



Doom Bringer is a great card, but I don't know that I would say it's so great that it should be the initial Inferno Unique creature. It's nice that he's a 4-drop, but so is Anael, and ask anyone and I'm pretty sure they'd want Anael more. They even have very similar stats. Doom Bringer forces your opponent to reconsider their deployment, but you can work around him a lot more easily than one of the Forgotten Wars uniques. Hikyu might be a little strong given how creature-heavy the Base Set is, but I think he would be a better choice in the long run.



Fate Bender is a good card, and I'm sure he'll be better off once more discard is added to Inferno down the line, but with the Base Set's cardpool, I'm just not sure he'll be more than a creature with good stats. True, having good stats can be an ability in and of itself (Hello, Juggernaut!), and he'll only get better as the pool exands, but right now he's just not attractive. This goes more into discussing Fortunes, which is later in the post, but for now I'd just say that Twist of Fate should be added, which will go a long way to making Fate Bender playable.



--Fortunes--
Twist of Fate really ought to be put back in. Playing both Maws and Halls is dedicating a lot of your deck just to make sure you'll have some degree of discard--if they're only playing creatures and spells, Maws becomes worthless, so you need Halls; likewise, if they're only playing creatures and fortunes, Halls becomes worthless. Twist also serves to put a little more control back into the new meta, as it'll be the only way to remove a creature from the game before it's played. If you think Twist of Fate is too strong, then maybe Chaos Rift instead. I'm not sure what should be taken out to compensate for either of these additions (though I would suggest adding both and removing Halls and Maws, but that's just me).



Stronghold only has four Fortunes? I get why Blood Shaman Hut was removed (redundant with War Tent), but four seems awfully light. And no unique? I don't play enough Stronghold to have specific, knowledgeable feedback here, so all I can say is that the faction seems awfully weak in this area. Maybe Call of the Bloodhorn? I assume creatures with Bloodthirst would lose their counters (since they don't get them from the Warchanter) so it wouldn't lead to a snowball, nor would it be prone to abuse from Kelthor. But, as I said, I don't know enough to say much more than "Eh, it seems light."



--Heroes--
Kieran! Kieran vexes me greatly. The ability is a non-factor, and both his (her?) schools are okay for supporting a stronger school (Fire/Light, Dark/Prime, etc) but don't really have any synergy together. If Kieran was chosen for her (his?) stats, I think Sigfried fills the 2-Might role better. His ability will give Haven a tangible benefit to their main strategy--lots of creatures, sometimes weenies. True, he has even fewer choices for magic than Kieran, but I think he'll do alright serving the creature-heavy role.



I think I get why Xorm is gone--All the Inferno heroes have fire, so he doesn't broaden the choices there, and since this set is creature-heavy, his ability would become overly strong for the new meta. I love Xorm like nobody's business, but I can see why he's out and won't ask for him back. The thing about the Inferno heroes in this set is that they seem kind of like place-holders. There isn't enough discard in this set to make Ignatius good, and there isn't quite enough control to make Dhamiria great yet (she'll always be good), same with Fate Binder: It's okay, but it will be better later once the pool is deeper. This leaves Inferno feeling a little more like the dev team is saying "Hold on, it gets better. Just be patient. Give us a couple months." That's what I'm not really a fan of. I think I'd prefer it if Belias or Phrias were put in now, with either Dhamiria or Ignatius being re-introduced (as-is, no need to errata or rework them) a little further down the line in an expansion. Belias would even give Inferno a guy without Fire, as well as providing a unique direct-damage component.



--Spells--
After thinking about it a few days, I think I understand why Fireball was removed--4 damage is very efficient, and it looks like creatures are having their butts scaled back in this set. Tainted Orc is gone, Lilim is replaced with the smaller-butted Lashing Lilim. The net result is that 5-hp is the new 6-hp, which makes Fireball stronger than it should be. So, yeah, Geyser is a better choice--EXCEPT it's water. Not fire. And that just rubs me the wrong way, to be perfectly honest. What I think I would suggest is to remove both Geyser and Fireball, then in the next expansion add a new card that does the exact same thing as Geyser, but is a Fire spell instead.



And that's it. Thanks for reading, hope it helped.

RodSerling319
02-09-2014, 12:34 AM
I understand and I like the concept of Base Set 2, new players don't have to dig so deep to access cards from all sets, as a newer player, I know the frustration of not knowing what I should spend my gold and seals on because of the variety. Also the new set will stabilize the card base for development of future sets.

I do have one issue that I don't know if I can be sold on. My set 1 Goblin Scout is going to be identical to a set 2 Goblin Scout except that it will have a number 2 at the bottom. So in order to use Goblin Scout in Standard format, I have to go out and get 4 brand new ones with that number 2 on it. This is a digital card game, I don't see how they can't somehow make all of the unchanged cards available for all formats. It definitely screams money grab because they aren't cycling out old cards and introducing new ones. They're just repackaging all of the same cards and I'm supposed to invest to reacquire the same cards I already have, just to play Standard?

krodis2000
02-09-2014, 12:38 AM
I feel that overall the changes are very positive and shake up the meta/ blow up top decks. Here is my take on each of the factions.

Haven: nerfed quite hard, but was necessary due to the removal of strong fire magic. Without it, cass/sandal aggro would run rampant. That being said they may have gone too far in pruning back haven as it seems weak.

Inferno: Fire, the predominant spell school of inferno, was nerfed hard imo, and this will hurt spell based inferno decks. However, some of their strong creatures went untouched and i think they will see a surge post rotation.

Necro: I feel like they got a huge boost both creature wise and dark magic wise. I think it is interesting that tainted orc was removed from stronghold, but the necro tainted orc (plague bearer) is still here. The combo of great spells like soulreaver/ enthrall with creatures like decay spitter, banshee and untamed wraith i think necro will dominate. I expect ariana to be huge having access to mass removal in insect swarm and rise of the netherworld not to mention her ability. I have always had a crush on necro so im cool with that :)

Sanctuary: Its hard not to feel that sanctuary got nerfed hard with no ishuma. However im excited to see the new decks that will rise from the ashes. Sayama champion was a good keep, and raya will be as dominant as ever. water magic got a boost imo with having geyser, ice spikes and ice shell so i think they will be ok. Also, battle trance and Yukiko's shrine could become powerhouse cards. Seeing as how most other factions got nerfed too and how much more relevant outmaneuver will become in a more creature focused meta, i think sanctuary will be fine.

Stronghold: No more tainted orc. Ouch. My first thought was that stronghold will have trouble without that guy dominating the board, but the consolation prize is that they get war tent which potentially makes all the oliphants into tainted orcs. I think stronghold still has a lot going for it, but i cant help feeling that lacking the efficient strong creatures that their will get picked apart by strong dark removal spells. Acamas and Zardoc look to be winners post kelthor.

Academy: I can see Akane really tearing it up. Both her magic schools got boosted and i always thought her hero ability could be game-breaking. Now that the game will slow down a bit, i think she is ready for prime time. Hakeems schools got to keep some good stuff too, and many components of Asalah decks seem intact as well. I think Academy got a big time buff here and i think they are second in strength only to Necro.

Spells: I think its crazy that fire got nerfed this hard. They have next to no good removal or mass removal. I understand taking fireball but firestorm too? All fire heroes took a hit in this rotation. Water, air and dark got buffed in that they are now in possession of the premiere removal spells. I think i would include earth in that category as well with insect swarm staying. Prime and light seem underwhelming but time jump and void ripple could become stronger. Most of my spell opinions are based on removal content within a school as i feel this will be the most relevant in a creature heavy meta.

Events: I like the changes, and night of the rising moon will keep on truckin.

Fortunes: i was never much of a fortune player so i cant say much here. But the loss of cosmic singularity, altar of asha, altar of shadows, broken bridge, wasteland, throne of renewal, cosmic realignment and campfire, its hard to to feel like fortunes got gutted. All i know is the fortunes that were effectively played against me seem to be mostly all gone with nothing even remotely close replacing them. With spells, fireball may be gone but geyser is a decent replacement. I don't see any "light" versions of the cards i listed above.

Anyways, that's how i see it. Hope that adds to the discussion in some way. I've got decks brewing so I would love to try em out in a BS2 tournament!

L4t3ralu5
02-09-2014, 01:11 AM
I understand and I like the concept of Base Set 2, new players don't have to dig so deep to access cards from all sets, as a newer player, I know the frustration of not knowing what I should spend my gold and seals on because of the variety. Also the new set will stabilize the card base for development of future sets.

I do have one issue that I don't know if I can be sold on. My set 1 Goblin Scout is going to be identical to a set 2 Goblin Scout except that it will have a number 2 at the bottom. So in order to use Goblin Scout in Standard format, I have to go out and get 4 brand new ones with that number 2 on it. This is a digital card game, I don't see how they can't somehow make all of the unchanged cards available for all formats. It definitely screams money grab because they aren't cycling out old cards and introducing new ones. They're just repackaging all of the same cards and I'm supposed to invest to reacquire the same cards I already have, just to play Standard?

Not sure if serious ...

but if you have 4 Goblin Scouts, you can use these in "standard". No need to acquire them from Base Set 2 packs, they are the same card.

Edit: From the stickied thread:


Will the cards I purchase now be useless? Will I have to pay for cards in Base Set Two even if I've already owned the card in the past?

You will be able to play all cards in the new Open format. Older cards that are still in BS2 will be still usable in the Standard format. There is no need to purchase a new copy of the card for play in Standard mode.

RodSerling319
02-09-2014, 02:15 AM
Not sure if serious ...

but if you have 4 Goblin Scouts, you can use these in "standard". No need to acquire them from Base Set 2 packs, they are the same card.

Edit: From the stickied thread:

LOL, how the hell did I miss that. Thanks, I'll shut up now... Carry on, devs.

Skywalking1
02-09-2014, 02:39 AM
I played a card game where every card is nearly perfectly balanced. It's called Kongai and nobody plays it anymore.

Silencer.avs
02-09-2014, 05:04 AM
I don't get the point in whipping all the previous cards.
Why don't you have just created new game modes with some card rules ?
I don't get the point to remove the previous cards.

Are you planning to do so every 3/4 expansions ?

ManlyMantonio
02-09-2014, 05:41 AM
Might as well throw my voice in:

Do we really need more Dhamiria? Can we kick her out for any other Inferno hero?

Stronghold looks pretty beefy. Blackskull Crusher might start running amok.

Boot Hakeem. Hakeem already shares same magic schools with Ariana, so seems kinda redundant.

Otherwise, I like the idea of 'starting over.' Meta feels stale right now and it will be fun to go back to basics a bit.

ev0lyeti
02-09-2014, 06:26 AM
Sorry if this has already been covered, but I was confused about how BS2 affects the first four expansion packs. I realise BS1 is being removed from the shop.

I'm curious how the expansions will be handled. Will these packs remain available in the shop? Will the non-BS2 compliant cards be removed from them if purchased in the future?

I'm more interested in whether they are still available at all since I have not unlocked these at the Altar of Wishes, so it is kind of a big deal for me if these are removed from the shop. I play very casually, but have been storing up many WCs against the day I take the game seriously enough to think through crafting my ideal competitive deck(s). If I now have a March deadline on unlocking cool Legacy cards from the first 4 expansion decks for use in Open Format, this changes everything (for me).


Edit: Or will it just be that the achievement for unlocking gets removed (refers to out-of-print cards), and these cards can be wished for without having unlocked the respective deck at all?

dale533
02-09-2014, 07:26 AM
I've read through this very long thread, and I have a question that I have seen asked -- but not answered.

Question: Will the duels be in legacy and in open format? I see that tournaments will be in both formats, but don't see anything said about duels.

Comment: I have a Xorm deck that I am playing occasionally. It contains Paos and DAs, neither of which are in BS2. Hence if I want to play an inferno deck in the new BS2 mode, I'll have to drop them for something else. I can live with that.
but
Question: When I am making up a new deck, will there be any sort of filter to tell me which cards are legacy and which are BS2? It's going to be hard to remember the new card list.

flnch
02-09-2014, 07:40 AM
Been playing around 2 months and really enjoying the game. For a player like me I think this expansion looks great. I'm hovering around 1250 ELO at the moment and have some great matches, but as necro/ariana there are several decks that I can't conceivably counter with my current cards, probably not even with the whole necro set available (pillage/pillage/prison game over anyone?). Because of this I've been staying away from tournament play until the long haul of building a higher tier deck.

Base set 2 at first glance promises an option for competitive tournament play outside of the current perfected meta with more readily acquired cards so I'm quite looking forward to it.

Pjovejas
02-09-2014, 08:09 AM
Didn't notice if someone mentioned about UI: in the stream I didn't see any filter "show BS cards/show open format cards". Only "deck validation" for deck list.
Did I miss something? I think such fillter would be very important.

As for cards selection... Well my opinion is that it is hard to decide for this moment. It may look like dumbing down the meta, but maybe the future expansions will fix it.
And one of the things I don't understand: why to exclude Fireball??? It is perfect spell from "lore" perspective, for learning purposes (basically THIS spell taught me not to stack creatures in early days).

Marcolian2002
02-09-2014, 08:47 AM
I believe most points have been covered by veteran players, I just add my 2 cents here:
As BS2 is intended for new players, would it be seal exclusive like the current 5 Towers? If that's the case then new players could easily quit the game as they can't get enough playable new cards using GOLD ONLY and would easily drop out.

SpatulaOfDoom
02-09-2014, 08:48 AM
Edited my first post (first reply to this thread), so you guys can read my feedback if you like.

Love your feedback Zeljko, thing you're right on with your comments.

I think the difference between creature quality of Sanctuary and Stronghold, of the cards being retained for BS2, is almost absurd. I understand that Sayama Stalker was maybe the 2nd best 2 cost Creature (behind Wolf Cpt), so removing that is totally reasonable, but removing Dune Prowler AND Spy along with Stalker? What? Trying to make any creature based deck now is depressing to me, and the melee vs. ranged problem that plagues Sanctuary is made so much worse.

Meanwhile, the only relevant creature removed for Stronghold is the Tainted Orc. Without any ambush, the extra outmaneuver from the Dune Prowlers at 4 cost, AND no Wanizame, I see Sanctuary having major troubles dealing with any War Oliphants. I would at least enjoy having Honor-Bound Kami as a back-row option for Takana builds...

Brandulak
02-09-2014, 09:28 AM
Pretty good work on card list as i see. Because from the card pool observations the meta will change drastically. But i've encountered a few flaws.

Like excluding Unique buildings that could greatly diversify BS2 strategies. Second thing is that you kept Blackskull Crushers, but removed the only fast answer existing - Broken bridge. So as stronghold already was given a lot of their good creatures, it may put faction in a pretty dominant position. As for haven nerf it's a shame how much hate did one faction recieve. From what i see it wont be able to compete on highest level, without some love from future expansions (but i may be wrong).

From magic perspective: Air and Primal seems very strong. Water is decent. Fire and earth may have lost their position as best board-clearing schools but still seems very solid. Dark magic school became Creature-debuff magic school. And light is in a complete deep ****. (Seing that every of BS2 haven heroes has Light magic - is again a nice hit on a whole faction).

PS; Rest in peace my dear Cassandra, you wont be forgotten=(

xthatwhiteguyx
02-09-2014, 09:54 AM
I love that over 90% of the adamant complainers are brand new players, who probably just spent money copycatting existing top decks, rather than learning the game.

That just makes this new set even more fun for me.

MindVega
02-09-2014, 10:30 AM
I've stuck with this game for the past 6 - 7 months now, and since the 5T expansion it's gotten harder and harder to stay motivated to keep playing this game. I think the team behind mmdoc have their priorities out of wack; at this point in time I feel they should be setting aside budget to do some serious proper advertising for this game (because the number of players for mmdoc is dwindling by the day) as well as hiring a new marketing team. Instead they're focusing on releasing an update that'll only help in segregating the already small pool of existing players via standard BS2 mode and "Legacy"/open.

If it's one thing I've learned from playing mmdoc it is to never get too attached to anything pertaining to this game because all the work and time put in can, and likely will, be thrown out the window in future updates and expansions.

Elementalist.
02-09-2014, 10:51 AM
I am actually happy for the splitting of formats. The meta should change considerably and emerge healthier once more cards are introduced. Sure, right now it looks like it has been dumbed down but I honestly don't like the fact that so many cards were auto-include in virtually every deck. More cards will be considered for inclusion now. it's good as a BASE.

Mind you, i find the 3k Ishuma alternate move nothing short of a despicable rip off. Not only for the price, not even for the fact that a deck was not included but also because he's been excluded from set2. That is a slap in your customers' face, congratulations. On the other hand the open format will still be present so things are not as bad as they sound but i'm sure many will have a bitter taste in their mouth after that.

Now then, base set 2 cards! Some very ballsy moves there, I love that. All the mainstream cards that everyone plays(DA, pao, wc, void shades) have been removed! I don't get some exclusions though. For instance.. Why take out clashing tides? Resurrection? Etc.

Takeiteasy...
02-09-2014, 01:30 PM
We need way more solid info.

1. WC price of legacy card
2. BS 2 pack for seals only or gold also?
3. Number of WC in new BS 2 packs
4. If there will be any "sellout" of legacy packs before they vanish from shop?
5. I know that card list is still in fluid but it would be good to get solid stone list 1-2 weeks before premiere.

Viriathos.PT
02-09-2014, 01:58 PM
i see necropole may have a chance in this BS2 ... more whit speels ... Ariana .... the fortunes choosen are quite diferent from old necropole strategy..

but Academy its very strong .. and stronghold only loose tainted orc....lets see how this BS2 works im really anxious to play this BS2..

zapp626
02-09-2014, 02:04 PM
Stronghold also looses Kelthor and Crag, the two top heros as well as nearly all of the removal spells the Kelthor deck was build with. Will be interesting how this turns out, but I personally see Necro on the rise again. But let's wait and see.

Khazmodai
02-09-2014, 02:15 PM
I only read the first two pages of the thread, so I don't know if what I'm going to say has already been pointed out.

I only have one question : WHERE ARE STRONGHOLD FORTUNE ?

Stronghold, and especially Kelthor are my favorite champion since I started to play one year ago (and not only since 5T ofc). But I'm a bit disappointed here, my fav champ is gone and stronghold have only FOUR (yes, 4) fortunes. And no broken bridge to take from neutral fortunes.
So maybe one or two more fortunes could be nice, just to expand a bit the deck building possibility cause it's rather poor as it is right now.

About stronghold creature, well the loss of tainted orc hurts but I'm ok with the rest of it. We still have the war oliphant to tank.


Can't wait for BS2 to be launched to see some new deck building.

Duderiksen
02-09-2014, 02:30 PM
Alright, this is my take on my 5/4/1 Alia deck (1250-1300 Elo).

Nerfs

Tithe Collector -> this is probably the biggest blow, but since all strong rush decks are getting nerfed as well it won't be as needed anymore.
Magic Peddler -> not needed anymore, because no more FF and LoT.
Moon Phoenix -> I used it mainly to remove Tithe Collector during LoT. This is no longer needed, because they don't exist anymore.
Holy Praetorian -> Another big hit. However DAs and Tainted Orcs are gone from the game as well.
Pao Deathseeker -> They were my choice of damage to finish off an opponent who cleared the board. Since board clears were removed, I don't need this anymore.

Sun Burst -> I used them to get rid of Sayama Stalkers and DAs, which don't exist anymore, so it's manageable.
Fireball -> It hurts much more for my opponents than it does for me. My deck is very melee-heavy and Fireball was a great counter to that.
Forbidden Flame -> Same as with Fireball. I only used it, because it was mandatory to have.
Light of Tomorrow -> Not too worried about losing this, because it will become way tougher to even remove my high health creatures.

Week of Training -> Big nerf, nothing else to say.
Week of Taxes -> No longer needed, because all the allowed fortunes are rather meh.

Now for the buffs

Crusader Sergeant will be in the base deck 2. That card is insane with Alia's ability. It is basically SotS just for me.

Angels of Mercy will still be available, which will allow me to reuse my really powerful high might creatures (Anael, Griffin Marksman, Crusader Sergeant, Crusader Commander). I will no longer revive Magic Peddlers or Tithe Collectors late game. At worst I will get Loyal Griffins.

Anael will be a nightmare for my opponents, now that they can't Shadow Image or Puppet Master it anymore. She can still be countered, but at least the opponent won't be able to use her against me anymore without counter play. Enthrall is still possible, but I will change my deck accordingly.

Radiant Glories and Crusader Vanguard will both still be available. They are really strong 3 drops with 3 damage each. They are hard to kill without Lightning Strikes and allow me to stall for my really tough creatures.

Based on all of that information, this is going to be my new Alia deck for standard play with base set 2. Feel free to check it out and commentate on it! I'm open for adjustments and thoughts.

http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/833117-Alia-creature-lock-(BS2)

iharderages
02-09-2014, 03:09 PM
I am starting a voting: Should it be still possible to get old sets with gold after the release of base set2? http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/832772-Petition-Old-sets-should-be-still-avaible-for-gold

Falux79
02-09-2014, 03:14 PM
The more I'm think about Bs2, tge more I like it. After all, every card game at some poiint of their life cycle has to introduce a split in format, or power creep will just be devastating. And, for all those saying Ubi completely destroyed some deck, I rember you that we already can consider us in the "open format mode" where all card are playable.

I would ask Ubi if possible to maintain the booster pack for open format (ubi please, think of it as an emilio pack just for open card and don't force people who started from now on to buy open card throught altar of wishes only).

Keksiotus
02-09-2014, 03:58 PM
Name one unique that can wipe an entire field in one turn ober doom bringer? I would love to know how you think its better to have the other unique

Doom Bringer is so situational and you can only have one of them (duh).

With all the other uniques you just want to play them as fast as possible if you have them in your hand. That's because they are pure awesomeness. But with doom bringer it isn't that simple. Like if you already have more creatures on the board - you might not want to give your opponent a chance to kill all of them. Then it's a dead card in your hand.

And since it's unique you might not have it in your hand when the situation calls for it. There seems to be one neutral UNIQUE fortune that can search it from your library and play it for free (cost 7) but that's about it. And even then you would have to still kill him. So you need that one event or sacrifice in your hand as well.

Hikyu on the other hand is pure attack-anywhere-shooter-IMMUNE TO RETALATION-awesomeness with 4 attack. And he gives +1 attack to chosen friendly creature when he attacks. Every (creature-based) deck could use him if it meets his requirements. If you have him in your hand you would always want to play him - like all the other uniques in BS2.


UBI PLEASE give inferno Hikyu :D you already took all the bigger inferno creatures away... :(

samdamanpart5
02-09-2014, 04:32 PM
Problems with base set 2.

1) NO COSMIC SINGULARITY
Without cosmic singularity, magic heroes should just quit game when they face inferno. Example: DHAMIRA (BROKEN OP HERO). Yes, this card is so broken and need a fix, but it is the only solution against milling/ discarding decks.

2) MAWS OF CHAOS / HALLS OF AMNESIA. (WTF is this card still doing in base set 2?)
Firstly, they cost 1 !!!!!! WTFF. Secondly, they can discard one of your most important spells/ fortunes which could save your life. Thirdly, it can see your entire freaking hand!!!
Fourthly, after seeing your entire hand, they can use their ability (DHAMIRA, to further discard all your important spells/ fortunes) WTFF??

3) DHAMIRA
This hero is so badly designed and so broken that even a fool can reach tier 1 using him. Hero ability: 6 cost: Look at opponent's hand and discard all the card (spell or fortune) with the same name.

Those who play academy/ spell reliant heroes should just stop wasting their time and quit when they face DHAMIRA because its just a waste of time with Maws of chaos/ halls of amnesia and no cosmic singularity. Imagine they discard your forked lightnings, enthralls, geysers, soul reavers, insect swarms, curse of underworlds. Goodgame. No way to recover those spells.

6) DRAWING CARDS.
So, OK FINE. INFERNO DISCARDS ME. ACADEMY MILLS ME. I need to draw cards but I dont play many creatures and my hand cant reach 1 because every round I draw additional cards.
a) Use the great hunt! But my hand wont reach x1 card and it always comes out (ongoing) when I have severa; cards in my hand. And my opponent is smart cause he discards me after the event ends. OK UNREALIABLE. NEXT !!
b) Use time of war! BUt But ! Im not stronghold, inferno or sanctuary and I dont play rush! Im following the new base set 2 meta! Going for bigger creatures! Next!
c) Use Night of rising moon! ok But I need to unlock it and its rare!
- FIrst I have to unlock towering wishes achievement to get Night of the rising moon (200 5T cards required) ok I can do that.
- Then, I have to use 20 seals to get 1. Hmm, probably 1 is not enough. I need at least 2 -4. So I probably need 80 wildcards.
- YESS, I GOT 80 wildcards now. Im going to sacrifice getting all the other useful cards because I will instantly lose to inferno without card drawing events! Therefore 80wc is worth it because I love academy/ using spellcasters!!!!!!!!
c) Night of rising moon: discard 1x creature, spell and fortune to draw 4 card. Wait a min, I dont have any spells/ fortunes/ creatures because I have been discarded by dhamira/ ignatius. What do i do now? Oh wait, there is week of knowledge.
d) Week of knowledge: Draw a card only if you have not played any cards. Wow nice i can draw cards!!!! But wait, I can use any cards. Fine, I will just let my enemy control the entire board and kill all my creatures so that I can draw 1 card.

4) ARIANA
Any person playing stronghold just just quit when see ARIANA. Your want to have enrage counters? THANK YOU. I WILL JUST INSTANTLY KILL YOUR CREATURE WITH MY HERO ABILITY. No enrage? THANK YOU I WILL PUT CRIPPLING COUNTERS ON YOUR CREATURES AND KILL YOUR CREATURES 1 BY 1 BECAUSE MY HERO'S ABILITY IS A FREE SOULREAVER. Counter? Ward against darkness / purity. If your are not light magic user, and your are stronghold player who relies only on enrage, say goodgame.

5) ENRAGE
I love to play enrage stronghold deck. Infact most of the stronghold creatures rely on this ability now. So what do I do when I face ARIANA? Rush her and kill her fast! But she got insect swarm and curse of netherworld. Ok, I will play crushers with enrage counters. Guess what, ARIANA uses her ability and my crushers died immediately. OK THEN, I WILL USE BLACKSKULL CRUSHERS!!!

6) BLACKSKULL CRUSHERS
This is the one of the most OP creatures in DoC. Absolutely immune to all effects and dmg from enemy spells. WTFF is this? Even Mizu Kami (rare) only have magic shield not GODLIKE ANTI SPELL MODE. This will be included in most stronghold decks and anyone plays magic (academy mainly) will just rage and quit the match. At least previously there were PAOS to counter them but they are gone now. I wonder why are the blackskull crushers still included in base set 2 and why its ability were not changed to magic shield instead of magic ward or why is it not rare when mizu kami is.....


CONCLUSION:-
1)ARIANA AND DHAMIRA is too overpowered and should not be included in base set 2.

2) MAWS OF CHAOS OR HALLS OF AMNESIA should be adjusted. The cost of these cards should be increased to 3 or more. Why remove twist or fate and dont remove these as well? Because twist of fate is too OP and they are not OP?

2) MARKET OF SHADOWS SHOULD BE INCLUDED TO DRAW CARDS. There are no other reliable way to draw cards and Night of rising moon, time of war, the great hunt is very conditional. So every faction must play mainly creatures but academy seems to be weakest with creatures alone.

3) BLACKSKULL CRUSHERS
Heroes that rely mainly on spells (academy mainly) have no answer to this creatures besides dark magic through enthralling other creatures.

4) FIRE MAGIC AND LIGHT MAGIC
Wow.... No further comment. Basically there is only 1 way to play fire - rage and immolation. Stupid.

5) GEYSERS
This spell should be removed from water magic. Water magic are not fire magic? 3 to cost for 3 dmg. Fireball 4 to cost 4 dmg. Isnt it the same? Board clearance?

NicWester
02-09-2014, 04:59 PM
I finally watched the stream and wanted to say that while I like the type and class being added to a creature (ie: Fire Imp), I don't like how it's presented. The text seems kind of shunted off to the side and blends in with whatever rules text is on the card. There've been a lot of CCGs to do the same thing in the past and drew a little more attention to it by putting the keywords in bold and center-oriented. Were I a new player, I'd probably like at "Fire Imp" on a card and think it was flavour text. But if it looks noticeably different from the ability, I'm more likely to pay attention.

InsaneScorpion
02-09-2014, 05:27 PM
I personally think that Forked Lightning should be removed. You removed cards like Armageddon, Tsunami and decided to keep this???? That's certainly not optimal.

Strandly
02-09-2014, 05:56 PM
Broken Bridge I think should be added to the set, it's not overpowered at all and adds some interesting strategy to games.

SunshineSalerno
02-09-2014, 06:01 PM
For the most part I like the cards as a new base set moving forward. The only mainstay of my Academy deck I would really miss is the Spinning Dervish, but that's mostly because opponents either rarely remember the reflect 2, or don't care about killing their own archers. If I had the option I'd switch the Titan out for her, but since the two Rakshasa cards are already present for the Evade skill I'm guessing she'll be the odd one out.

There were a few fortune cards that had to be taken out to make the meta fun. I'll be very interested to to see what direction the next expansion goes in, and what the developers learned from the first set.

Gnrl.Mike
02-09-2014, 07:24 PM
I am generally ok with most of the card removals to shake-up the meta, although I will really miss some of them. However, I think that two event cards definitely need to be added back in: Mana Storm and Week of Taxes. The current selection of event cards for BS2 is too restrictive.

kiaryp
02-09-2014, 07:31 PM
I wrote a review on the revealed Base Set 2 here:

http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/833283-BASE-SET-2-Essay-on-Design-Decisions-and-their-Review-*EVEN-MORE-ULTIMATE-FEEDBACK*

I don't want to flood this thread with a giant post, but come check it out!

zedington
02-09-2014, 08:05 PM
In general, I like the proposed changes.

Assuming the player base is high enough to support both, I like the idea of a separate eternal format and a dynamic standard format. I think there should probably be some kind of Legacy packs or similar, rather than relegating out of print cards to the Altar. Cycling cards out of print works for a TCG, but not so much with a game that doesn't allow for trading. Also, cutting so many fortunes was kind of questionable, but we’ll see how that goes.

I think the idea of weekly constructed games with specific deck requirements is fantastic. Anything that adds diversity and challenge is positive.

UI Changes sound good. As it stands, it’s a pain to find specific cards in the deck builder. That will obviously get worse as the card pool grows.

Other than the wildly overpriced Ishuma alt-art debacle (and then removing it from standard play), I think things are moving in the right direction. I play every day and enjoy it. I've spent about $100 or so, and see myself spending more. I think the great gnashing of teeth here was probably inevitable. People don’t like change. I think after the changes are implemented, people will adapt and grow comfortable with them. I wouldn't worry about too many people fleeing to Hearthstone; that game’s awful.

Things I’m still hoping for:
• A limited format, either draft or sealed deck.
• League play in the old MTGO style where you’d get a new pack a week would be amazing.
• Hoping to also see best out of three/sideboarding in the future.
• More limited alt-art with realistic pricing (say…$15 usd or so?)

(On a side-note, more than a few of you could learn how to debate this topic without all the vitriol and hyperbole. It undermines any point you might be trying to make when you insult the person you’re responding to. Speak like a child and your opinion will be dismissed like a child's.)

X-Vargarv
02-09-2014, 08:28 PM
Thanks for the incoming changes, i'll keep support this awesome game!

I really like the idea to place BaseSet1 + Expansions in Legacy and no more available on shop.

Regards,
Vargarv.

Fakirbocko
02-09-2014, 09:31 PM
after some thinking i must ask, will cards that we buy in Base SEt 2 have NEW / DIFFERENT icon on right down corner or what ? will they be marked somehow ?

and what will be with old card and set markings ? will they keep old mark, get new one? what is idea about that ?

SnK-Arcbound
02-10-2014, 01:53 AM
There are lots of opinions here, and most of players are ignorant. Ubi should be making changes to follow in MTG's footsteps, and I'll give multiple reasons why.

First off, MTG is the oldest card game. YUGIOH, Marvel, All the star wars variants etc., are all out of print and officially dead, or at a point where there is no player base. Why? Because creature aggro doesn't work. Play creatures, attack with creatures, kill creatures, doesn't make a viable game. Here we see that Ubi has made a game capable of being more than just creature based. This means that MMDOC isn't competing with Hearthstone just because both are online and fairly new. Hearthstone is going to kill itself off eventually unless they massively alter the game, just like it's predecessors. MMDOC is actually competing with MTG, and should follow the MTG system of success. This means formats and rotations, and keeping power creep in check. (For a good video on power creep: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bxszx60ZwGw ) More important though is proper wealth building inside the game, and most of this post will be about using the current client options to build player wealth to keep the game healthy.

The way the game currently prices packs is baffling. MMDOC wants as many new players as possible, and what players need currently is all the sets. When a new expansion is released, it costs the most, and is the prize for swisses. So who is being targeted for playing swisses? Obviously it's older players, since they will have all the previous cards and will only need the newer set, in addition to them having a deck capable of winning swisses and a high tier in the jackpot. This is backwards on multiple fronts. You want the newest set to be cheapest, and the older sets to be expensive. This is for two reasons. By making the newer set expensive, you limit the possible card pool of newer players though cost and events. You also make it prohibitive for them to build a card pool under a certain format. Also by offering the newest set as the prize for swisses, you'll eventually run out of people who play swisses because there will be effectively no prize. Imagine MMDOC has 20 expansions. Would a better prize be an older set, or a newer set? Obiviously you want the older sets, as this will benefit more players. Does this mean older players won't play swisses? Maybe, but it's better than only having older players playing swisses and preying on the ignorant masses for wins. Catering to older players is a flawed business strategy, because the benefit of being an older player and having the cards is obvious. The current MMDOC model is trying to retain older players instead of recruiting newer players. The older player base can only shrink, while a newer player base can grow or shrink. By trying to retain older players, you are setting a life span on your game. Once the older players are gone, so is your game. You want to turn new players into legacy players, not legacy players into standard players.

Based on the problems, certain changes should be made. Newer sets should be cheaper and have wildcards. Your current pricing model is a mirror image of what it should be. This will allow players to build a new formats card pool quickly, and will allow them to start aquiring legacy cards. This benefits newer players the most, which is what you want. It also makes older players want to continue playing, to acquire new cards for new formats, and to acquire older cards they might be missing, since new players will eventually become entrenched and want to play more. Older sets should be expensive, the prize is you are getting all legacy cards, which are going to be difficult to obtain. Does this mean you offer certain sets, maybe as some daily or weekly deal, or do you offer them only as emilio packs? I'm not your accountant. Next prizes for swisses should be older packs, not newer ones. You also need to revalue how the Infernal pit and Altar of wishes work. The altar of wishes should be how you obtain specific standard cards, while the infernal pit is used to acquire legacy cards. This is for two reasons. First is the inherent way the two work. One builds value, the other destroys value. The Infernal pit is used to destroy cards permanently, and you want newer players to stay away from it, otherwise they might end up blowing up a 15 WC legacy epic for a standard rare. The Altar of wishes builds value since you're trading something with no real use inside the game into something you can actually play with. The effect of this is two fold. New players can keep buying the newest set even if they have all the cards, knowing they can turn those into legacy cards and don't need to figure out what set they need to buy for a chance at certain legacy cards. In other words there needs to be a plan for all stages of player experience, in order to protect them from ignorance. This will retain the player and keep them from blaming for their own mistakes. This builds both brand and customer loyalty.

The way your purchase cards should be Standard; Gold, Seals, Wildcards. Legacy; Seals, Infernal pit, swisses, and maybe wildcards or gold depending on your business model.

I understand why you have a lot of things backwards, and it's because you are working from the past forward, instead of the future backwards. You need to reorganize things for newer players, not try to keep them the same for older players. Older players already have a leg up, they have wealth built from playing a long time, and you want to protect that and make other players want to be like them. You should make other prizes that will keep older players playing, alternate arts, banners, achievements, etc. in addition to selling alternate arts and other things for seals. You want a synthesis of LoL f2p model, and MTG balancing. Your old way of fixing the game was trying to fill in the gaps once you went public. Now it's time for you to reorganize everything you've built for the future. The valuation of cards games is like that of stock. Apple doesn't sell iPhones to sell iPhones. They do it to make profits for their shareholders. The stock of a company is the valuation of the company through its entire existence, past to present. The company could pay out hundreds of dollars to its shareholders, but if the business might go backrupt tomorrow, no one would buy that stock. TCG's build their value by protecting their past cards, but not power creeping and killing the game. This is why all my recommendations are essentially the opposite of what the game currently is, but it's also why so many TCG's have killed themselves, and old MTG remains. The cards your make today, become worth more over time, not less. You are selling stock, not cars.

I'm sure you were expecting a post about the cards in base set 2, and other small problems, but those are transitory. Your team is obviously smart enough to understand what makes a viable game. What I see as your real problem is the inherent backwardness of your current system that will do far more damage than format rotations will ever do. MTG went through massive changes also. Huge rule changes, card formatting changes, changes of how sets are designed, format changes, and even some really bad changes like the reprinting of cards which destroyed the value inherent in the game. If they did it, you can too.

matewu
02-10-2014, 02:48 AM
...

Give the man a beer...

Im agreeing with his post mostly.

But most important is- in his model the legacy is going to be true competetive mode and to achieve something there: old players must get new cards, and new players must get old cards. Eerybody has an aim.

Marcolian2002
02-10-2014, 04:50 AM
....

Excellent suggestion. However, there's 1 fundamental difference between MTG and MMDOC, is that MMDOC is a 'free to play' game and you can't play Magic for free. Many top players are not paying. Enclase has demonstrated months before how to play for free and still get above 1500. So it's wrong to presume every single MMDOC player has spent something on this game to get the latest set.
I don't have the exact figures as I'm not working for UBI, but from other games the percentage of players who pay are usually less than 30%, and the big spenders, less than 1%.

kiaryp
02-10-2014, 06:10 AM
There are lots of opinions here, and most of players are ignorant. Ubi should be making changes to follow in MTG's footsteps, and I'll give multiple reasons why.

First off, MTG is the oldest card game. YUGIOH, Marvel, All the star wars variants etc., are all out of print and officially dead, or at a point where there is no player base. Why? Because creature aggro doesn't work. Play creatures, attack with creatures, kill creatures, doesn't make a viable game. Here we see that Ubi has made a game capable of being more than just creature based. This means that MMDOC isn't competing with Hearthstone just because both are online and fairly new. Hearthstone is going to kill itself off eventually unless they massively alter the game, just like it's predecessors. MMDOC is actually competing with MTG, and should follow the MTG system of success. This means formats and rotations, and keeping power creep in check. (For a good video on power creep: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bxszx60ZwGw ) More important though is proper wealth building inside the game, and most of this post will be about using the current client options to build player wealth to keep the game healthy.

The way the game currently prices packs is baffling. MMDOC wants as many new players as possible, and what players need currently is all the sets. When a new expansion is released, it costs the most, and is the prize for swisses. So who is being targeted for playing swisses? Obviously it's older players, since they will have all the previous cards and will only need the newer set, in addition to them having a deck capable of winning swisses and a high tier in the jackpot. This is backwards on multiple fronts. You want the newest set to be cheapest, and the older sets to be expensive. This is for two reasons. By making the newer set expensive, you limit the possible card pool of newer players though cost and events. You also make it prohibitive for them to build a card pool under a certain format. Also by offering the newest set as the prize for swisses, you'll eventually run out of people who play swisses because there will be effectively no prize. Imagine MMDOC has 20 expansions. Would a better prize be an older set, or a newer set? Obiviously you want the older sets, as this will benefit more players. Does this mean older players won't play swisses? Maybe, but it's better than only having older players playing swisses and preying on the ignorant masses for wins. Catering to older players is a flawed business strategy, because the benefit of being an older player and having the cards is obvious. The current MMDOC model is trying to retain older players instead of recruiting newer players. The older player base can only shrink, while a newer player base can grow or shrink. By trying to retain older players, you are setting a life span on your game. Once the older players are gone, so is your game. You want to turn new players into legacy players, not legacy players into standard players.

Based on the problems, certain changes should be made. Newer sets should be cheaper and have wildcards. Your current pricing model is a mirror image of what it should be. This will allow players to build a new formats card pool quickly, and will allow them to start aquiring legacy cards. This benefits newer players the most, which is what you want. It also makes older players want to continue playing, to acquire new cards for new formats, and to acquire older cards they might be missing, since new players will eventually become entrenched and want to play more. Older sets should be expensive, the prize is you are getting all legacy cards, which are going to be difficult to obtain. Does this mean you offer certain sets, maybe as some daily or weekly deal, or do you offer them only as emilio packs? I'm not your accountant. Next prizes for swisses should be older packs, not newer ones. You also need to revalue how the Infernal pit and Altar of wishes work. The altar of wishes should be how you obtain specific standard cards, while the infernal pit is used to acquire legacy cards. This is for two reasons. First is the inherent way the two work. One builds value, the other destroys value. The Infernal pit is used to destroy cards permanently, and you want newer players to stay away from it, otherwise they might end up blowing up a 15 WC legacy epic for a standard rare. The Altar of wishes builds value since you're trading something with no real use inside the game into something you can actually play with. The effect of this is two fold. New players can keep buying the newest set even if they have all the cards, knowing they can turn those into legacy cards and don't need to figure out what set they need to buy for a chance at certain legacy cards. In other words there needs to be a plan for all stages of player experience, in order to protect them from ignorance. This will retain the player and keep them from blaming for their own mistakes. This builds both brand and customer loyalty.

The way your purchase cards should be Standard; Gold, Seals, Wildcards. Legacy; Seals, Infernal pit, swisses, and maybe wildcards or gold depending on your business model.

I understand why you have a lot of things backwards, and it's because you are working from the past forward, instead of the future backwards. You need to reorganize things for newer players, not try to keep them the same for older players. Older players already have a leg up, they have wealth built from playing a long time, and you want to protect that and make other players want to be like them. You should make other prizes that will keep older players playing, alternate arts, banners, achievements, etc. in addition to selling alternate arts and other things for seals. You want a synthesis of LoL f2p model, and MTG balancing. Your old way of fixing the game was trying to fill in the gaps once you went public. Now it's time for you to reorganize everything you've built for the future. The valuation of cards games is like that of stock. Apple doesn't sell iPhones to sell iPhones. They do it to make profits for their shareholders. The stock of a company is the valuation of the company through its entire existence, past to present. The company could pay out hundreds of dollars to its shareholders, but if the business might go backrupt tomorrow, no one would buy that stock. TCG's build their value by protecting their past cards, but not power creeping and killing the game. This is why all my recommendations are essentially the opposite of what the game currently is, but it's also why so many TCG's have killed themselves, and old MTG remains. The cards your make today, become worth more over time, not less. You are selling stock, not cars.

I'm sure you were expecting a post about the cards in base set 2, and other small problems, but those are transitory. Your team is obviously smart enough to understand what makes a viable game. What I see as your real problem is the inherent backwardness of your current system that will do far more damage than format rotations will ever do. MTG went through massive changes also. Huge rule changes, card formatting changes, changes of how sets are designed, format changes, and even some really bad changes like the reprinting of cards which destroyed the value inherent in the game. If they did it, you can too.

I enjoyed this a lot, I never realized that MTG works like that. I don't know if this is transferable to a F2P game. If the act of playing the game generated revenue for UBISOFT through ads or something similar I think this would work, because then players who played all the time already generated revenue for the company and players who have skipped out some are punished by having missed some sets while they were cheap and are now forced to spend money seals to catch up on what they missed.


Give the man a beer...

Im agreeing with his post mostly.

But most important is- in his model the legacy is going to be true competetive mode and to achieve something there: old players must get new cards, and new players must get old cards. Eerybody has an aim.

I think you're missing the point. Standard format will always be the the competitive format, because standard format is the format in which the meta is being taken care of. Legacy is dominated by broken cards and and strategy usually degenerates and stagnates for much longer periods of time.

Ussoro
02-10-2014, 07:44 AM
If you really want to shake things up, I think allowing 4 of the same card in 1 deck is too many, the limit should be reduced to 3. For me, seeing my creatures die to 4 consecutive soulreaver, is very aggravating... or 4 of another annoying card. This will force more diversify decks

Why does every faction keep their unique fortune except stronghold? That's not fair! Not only that, but stronghold keeps only 4 fortunes?? I run a fortune deck, and, now I can't cause there is no fortunes to choose from!

1 of them is Famous Last Blows, and I'm trying to make that card work, but haven't once been useful once for me... the requirement is way too high, and why is there a limit to it, 3 and under, makes the card really bad.

They need more fortunes like Blood pool, blood shaman hut, stampede, rushing assault, etc.

Also think they should add the demented back into the Inferno. Thought they were part of the staple for the faction.