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maxim26
03-17-2004, 10:43 AM
P51 vs Bf109K4. Both a/c have the same speed and altitude. P51 is not as good turner as Bf109, so after couple try to get on Bf's six I extend and it looks like P51 has some speed advantage as I start loosing Bf109. But differense is not thet big, so it takes some time to get as far as 4-5 km from Bf on the same altitude. Then imelman and as a result P51 has some alt advantage but no speed and Bf109 with high speed pulls up and has P51 in the sight. You r lucky is Bf109 pilot is a bad shot.

So the question is how to creat energy advantage if you and your opponent in the same initial position?

maxim26
03-17-2004, 10:43 AM
P51 vs Bf109K4. Both a/c have the same speed and altitude. P51 is not as good turner as Bf109, so after couple try to get on Bf's six I extend and it looks like P51 has some speed advantage as I start loosing Bf109. But differense is not thet big, so it takes some time to get as far as 4-5 km from Bf on the same altitude. Then imelman and as a result P51 has some alt advantage but no speed and Bf109 with high speed pulls up and has P51 in the sight. You r lucky is Bf109 pilot is a bad shot.

So the question is how to creat energy advantage if you and your opponent in the same initial position?

BlitzPig_DDT
03-17-2004, 10:55 AM
You can outdive him (exceed his VNE), have better control at high speed, and out zoom him.

Drag him down low and either get him to break up in the dive, lose control and auger, or black out in the pull out. Then, when you are faster, or similar speed, carefully zoom. You will beat him in a zoom climb from the same alt and speed. But, it can be dangerous to attempt, just be warned. Also, never let it end up a sustained climb competition.

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crazyivan1970
03-17-2004, 11:06 AM
Mustang falls apart before K4 does... needless to say that K4 will catch pony in the dive...at least from my experiances.

Main weapon for P-51 vs K4 is superior High Speed handling...but that wont fly against G10 or G14.. Both are much more agile then K4 at high speeds.

V!
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BlitzPig_DDT
03-17-2004, 12:18 PM
This change in AEP? circa 1.21 the Mustang could dive to higher speeds. Haven't used either since about then though. lol

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crazyivan1970
03-17-2004, 12:27 PM
It`s been like this in 1.21 and 1.22 at least from my experiances... I fly K4 quiet often

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Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

robban75
03-17-2004, 12:30 PM
They break up at roughly the same speed which is little above 900km/h IAS. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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TgD Thunderbolt56
03-17-2004, 12:56 PM
One on one it usually comes down to the pilots of the respective A/C.

My advice is to get a good wing man. It usually doesn't matter how "good" the 109 jockey is if there are 2 other pilots working in concert. This is true for virtually any encounter for that matter.



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BlitzPig_DDT
03-17-2004, 02:02 PM
Hmm. I remember the Mustange making it to well over 1000kphIAS in a long steep dive and 109Ks falling apart in the 900 region, as suggested. Oh well. 1000kph seems really steep anyway. In fact, most planes seem to dive too well, or, the Wing doesn't survive long enough, either one.

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JG27_BLACKHART
03-17-2004, 04:39 PM
It's hard enough to tangle with any 109 and harder if the 109 is being piloted by experienced persons as esteemed like the ones here. The only true advantage over a great 109 pilot is surprise which is the ultimate advantage.

You have to know both planes weaknesses and strong points and use them to your advantage. Just like in real life one mistake could cost you.

I don't like head on's or trying to deal with a 109 in a 51 on equal terms and playing field it's like Russian Rullet. Extend as far away level as possable as fast as you can I normally do slow turns with my nose in a 3 degree pitch downward and then back up into him from belly side take a pop shot then immelemen back into him recover and hope to God he lost more energy scouting for a shot than I did. lol

I would rather deal with a one 109 with a decent wingman How ever the energy created in a dive has changed in AEP than when first released the 51 with no power could reach speeds up to 1100 - 1200 KMH now it's less.

this of course from my experience and IMHO.

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JG27_BLACKHART
03-17-2004, 04:42 PM
One other method you could do is get him in a slow scissor tail .. 109 seems a little stallish in them now for some reason.

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JG7_Rall
03-17-2004, 05:12 PM
Try flying towards him at an angle so you wont be going head on. Then as you close, begin to climb right when he's about to fire and turn just a bit, so you turn while climbing but don't bleed any extra E. If you turn too hard he will be able to pull a head on shot on you, not enough turing will make it so he can probably get a deflection shot off. Turn so that he tries to turn inside you but burns a crazy amount of E. Keep climbing and turning away from you, he'll have to turn and gain alt. all while buring much more E than you. Keep circling above him like an eagle waiting to swoop down on his prey. As he continues to bleed E he will soon stall-this is your chance. Split S down on top of him and repeat as necessary-you have the energy and alt. adantage so you will dictate how the fight goes from here, unless you lose it of course.

S! Hope I helped.

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Hunde_3.JG51
03-17-2004, 07:34 PM
What Thunderbolt said.

Also, the elevator on the 109's stiffens up at high speeds alot more than P-51. In a prolonged dive you can pull out sharply and easily while the 109 driver has to wait for speed to fall to get good control back and he will likely lose sight of you for a moment. This is more helpful as an evasive maneuver and the 109 has a good advantage in most other respects. Still, it can be an advantage especially when there are 2 of you. The P-51 is like the 190, not always the best 1 vs. 1 plane but in multiple plane engagements it can be deadly.

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jtasker
03-17-2004, 09:11 PM
P51D has high speed combat flaps.. P51D handles much better at higher speeds (>350Kph)while the 109 has better low speed handling. The basic idea is to fight in the area where your plane has the performance edge. If you stay over 350Kph for the entire fight, and use combat flap when you get chances for shots.. you should not lose..

Many MANY people come in with an energy advantage then do some reall aggressive maneuvering (especially after a diving pass) that blows all their E.. then they wonder why the guy was able to catch them..

When you have a large speed advantage EXTEND in a high speed climb..manually count for at least ten seconds so you use that extra speed to get out of his effective guns range..then start to maneuver

Fillmore
03-17-2004, 09:45 PM
The only way is if you have higher top speed, and/or more engine power. Against a K4 you have neither, so the answer is you can't (technically below 5000m you can because you're faster at 100% throttle than he is, so if his engine is hot, but that isn't really significant enough, and he can just stay away with climb advantage when his engine is hot anyway).

The shallow dive followed by zoom climb at very high speed (P51 climbs better than K4 at really high speeds) requires the K4 to make a mistake (by following you), and even if he does the advantage you gain is small and only temporary.

JG27_BLACKHART
03-18-2004, 03:44 AM
I'm not so sure about that one fillmore ... staying fast I can agree on but staying at top speeds could seriously put you out of the game when you have to open and close rads. I tend to agree with Jtasker if I was one on one with 109 good points about combat flaps but I don't know about low combat speed with k4 maybe the 14.

well at any rate we all have to learn different ways to enguage but it seems as though you have to re-learn to fly your favorite plane everytime they come out with a new update. Now all american planes explode in a dive when you pull up.
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[This message was edited by JG27_BLACKHART on Thu March 18 2004 at 03:00 AM.]