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Dome500
02-03-2014, 12:40 AM
Hey,

I just wanted to write down some thoughts I collected recently.
My opinion on AC, if you will.

AC1 and the Ezi-trilogy were awesome ( I even liked Revelations, although one could see that the franchise needed a change in many sections). But with ACIII they turned in the completely wrong direction IMO.

The simplification of the controls, the lackluster and sometimes ridiculously real-events-bending story, the dialogue, the flat character which whom I could not identify and a lot of other things.

Now with Black Flag, despite the very charming main character, the game has as good as nothing to do anymore with Assassins Creed, with what the game was originally about. It's basically only milking the cow, that is the only reason why they still call it Assassins Creed.

They actually just took the name and the two organizations (T+A) an threw them in there to get the fans to buy it. In the end the Assassin/Templar storyline is completely disconnected from the actual story of Edward.

The same thing with those "Assassin Missions". They are actually pretty good themselves. The problem is, they are completely disconnected. The only connection is Edward having a little guilt (you know what I mean if you played he story) and his greed for money.
They just threw those missions in to get more content in the game. In the end, you get the feeling all that matters is content, content, content. Collectibles, Assassin Missions (which have nothing to do with Edward or the overall story arc), ship battles (which are boring after you did it 10 - 15 times).

Additionally, despite very good attempts and some nice basic changes in terms of Stealth Gameplay, a real Stealth mode/state/gameplay is still missing, the social stealth was reduced to a minimum and the A.I. is beyond good and evil.
On top of that come a (way too easy) fighting system which definitely needs a change and controls which are simplified in a way that the game always misunderstands you.

Weapons or Armor is not even existent anymore for a big part (a bunch of swords, pistols and outfits, not more), almost no "Assassin Weapon" of the old games makes a comeback (aside from the hidden blade) - which is strange considering we are going FORWARD in time, not backwards.


And the sad thing is IMO, there is so much you can really do, even with the story. Even if you stick to the basic Assassin and Templar story in the foreground while having the historic era in the background, which always made for a great, full and satisfying experience, you can do so much with it.

It is not all good VS evil, Templars VS Assassins.
It involves the themes of "Freedom and Independence VS Order and Control" (to reach the same goal: peace), it involves the topic of unnecessary violence and if and when to use it, it involves themes of crowd control, and the theme of illusion to achieve your goals.
It involves intrigue, the topic of the poor VS the rich, and the problems caused between them, it involves the topic of forced discipline VS the individuality of every human being, and a lot more.

There are so many perspectives to see those topics from yet untold, there are so many moral decisions and philosophical questions the games once asked and so many which are unasked. There are so many types of context and unique situations or problems to see those topics in or from.

Those deep meanings, philosophies and noble ideas, how goo intentions can lead to bad deeds, how confidence is built but can harm oneself as well. Intellectual topics, discussions which do interest every human being and interested all people throughout centuries.
Final conclusions, lessons we can learn from the games, things to think about even after you laid your controller/gamepad down.

That is what I miss in recent Assassins Creed games.
That is what was part of the AC magic for me.

And all those things mentioned above are part of why I do not like the direction AC is going.

I hope I didn't sound too harsh or mad. I just spoke my mind.
I also hope some of you can understand me.

Greetings,

A former AC fan.

strigoi1958
02-03-2014, 03:04 AM
I felt 3 and 4 are the best with revelations closely behind but they're all good. :D

We're all entitled to what we prefer and after the sea battles in ac3 got rave reviews and feedback... ubi gave the customers what they wanted... if 50,000 want sailing for every 1 that leaves the AC fan club then you can understand why it is how it is. I accept it for what they are... different memories about different people at different times... having it mixed up a little bit, adding new people and health/armour (I like to hunt or go harpooning rather than run around collect money and buy armour), to me it keeps it fresh... it adds to the story line

As soon as you start comparing anything with a favourite rather than accepting it for what it is.... you're on a loser. You'll either dislike it for being better or dislike it for being worse.

Dome500
02-03-2014, 06:49 PM
Sure.

The only thing I am saying is that the old games had the Assassin story in the foreground (in different ways, mind you). Even AC3 partially managed to shed a new light on the Assassin/Templar story by using Haytham and Connor (even if Connor was aside from that a flat character IMO) and the idea of Freedom (Assassins) VS Order/Control (Templars) and stuff.

This game was so..... unrelated.

It had 1 or 2 moral lessons and a very weak connection to Assassins and Templars, but aside from that it was basically a pirate story and nothing else.

As for the weapons. I was more talking about the fact that buyable weapons were a lit less in AC3 and then even less in AC4. Also, old Assassin weapons did not return at all aside from the hidden blade.

I do not say they should just keep everything as it is, but adding new stuff AND bringing back 1 or 2 old Assassin weapons would have been nice.
Also, the whole Armor system from the Ezio games is not present anymore.

The gameplay in contrary to the story which went more and more away from the Assassin story, kind of stagnates IMO. It is too easy and a lot of control issues arise from the increased simplicity of controls you can see in every Ubisoft games these days.

I do of course appreciate different time periods and stories of different people, but AC4 was - for me personally - not an Assassins Creed game and had a mediocre story with close to no connection to the Assassin/Templar plot, had content for contents sake in some places, got rid of a part of the armor system (like AC3 already did) and had less weapons to choose from, and also did only bring back 1 signature assassin weapon (the hidden blade) and on the other hand had not enough improvements in the realm of controls and fighting system.

Stuff like that.

I do not say it is a bad game.

It's just not going into a direction I personally like.

guidomista
02-03-2014, 08:39 PM
Hi,
The first thing I have to say is thank you Dome500 for your post.
I think exactly like you.
And like us I know there are other players who think Assassin's Creed games have lost that kind of atmosphere.
I can't explain it better than you do, so I just add a pair of reflexions about it.

First, I suggest everebody think like that, to play AC Liberation.
It's not Ezio, of course. And it's quite buggy. And it's very short (honest, for that price).
But it's in assassin's mood more than AC3 or AC4.

Second,
Assassin's creed has a real historical scenario and characters. And this is a feature Ubisoft don't want to lose.
Even if they actually changed the essence of the first chapters.
And even if there are practically zero historical cards and infos in the latests (about what? Brand new buildings or hidden islands?...).
Assassin's creed content are in a higher cultural position than any other videogame. Sice the first chapter.
But, thinking about Altair and Ezio storylines, I have to admit that they have narrative limits.
Today you can't compare videogames with movies or TV shows.
Before were movies, now it's time for TV shows to rise.
I'm sure almost everyone in this forum loves the narrative form of one or more particular TV shows.
They can offer the best, as regards the narration, right now, IMO. And more choice.
Videogames stories are basically weaker right now. They are not "cultural products". Not yet.
Even AC suffer from this, despise it is better than other games.
There's no videogame, even my favorites, that can give me the feeling of an artistic masterpiece.
It's not time for videogames to be a mature product. To be Art.
Maybe in a few years...

Closing,
McDevitt, lead writer of the serie, said in a recent interview:
"I will say that fans definitely think alike. We have the same goals for the series, let's say. I'll leave it at that. We always want to surprise."
... that should mean everything. But i hope it means like ACV in a foggy Victorian London.
It should be hard not to make some atmosphere in that city in that period.
Don't you think? :)

bye

Dome500
02-03-2014, 09:58 PM
Games further in the past are better IMO, because they do not need to look at the exact historical facts so much, because there are less documentations and of lesser quality to really disprove things stated in the games.

I think Victorian London, Feudal Japan or Ancient Egypt would be cool.

Blackwolfe5
02-03-2014, 10:08 PM
I love all the Assassin Creed games, though AC3 the least. To me, the older games (AC1/2/B/R) felt very straightforward and not so much shades of grey when it came to the templar vs assassin storyline. It was also pretty much the foreground story. But what I love with AC4 i(and to some extent AC3) s that while the previous AC games were "hey Im an assassin and that's it!", Edwards story is more of a journey to becoming a true Assassin and it's not until the very end that he can be regarded as such and that there is a whole different story running paralell to it to a much bigger extent than in the other AC games.

Ok, that post is a mess, but I hope I got my point through.

Dome500
02-03-2014, 11:41 PM
I love all the Assassin Creed games, though AC3 the least. To me, the older games (AC1/2/B/R) felt very straightforward and not so much shades of grey when it came to the templar vs assassin storyline. It was also pretty much the foreground story. But what I love with AC4 i(and to some extent AC3) s that while the previous AC games were "hey Im an assassin and that's it!", Edwards story is more of a journey to becoming a true Assassin and it's not until the very end that he can be regarded as such and that there is a whole different story running paralell to it to a much bigger extent than in the other AC games.

Ok, that post is a mess, but I hope I got my point through.


Yeah, problem is that makes the whole game less Assassins-Creed-heavy.

Sure, I understand the journey and stuff. But being an Asassin should kick in at least half way through the game, otherwise elements like Assassin Missions and stuff are completely unconnected, and the game does not really give you time to explore new sides of this conflict.

All I end up with is the historical era. Which is nice, but all you can do is pirating.
After some hours those things get bring, since a big part of the game is made of collectibles and boarding ships, and since the real Assassin feeling is never there.

That's why Blacklist is a good stand-alone for me, but no good Assassins Creed.

strigoi1958
02-03-2014, 11:46 PM
The great thing about the AC series is because it is about a memory generated in a machine, it means that they can jump back and forth through history and also re visit the same time periods as before if they want.

The current AC IV has the ratings system at the end of each memory and people will give feedback there. Ubi will work out what will sell the most rather than what is more appealing to the core of AC fans.... but that doesn't mean it will not be the best for everyone.

Personally I'm not interested in the modern bits or desmond or animus games etc... but it adds to the overall game and everything that's extra is always good.

To be honest there is no reason why they cannot jump to several different memories through 1 game... If subject 17 was asked to visit different memories, not used before to find a clue about an objects location... he could play as Altair tracking a templar who escapes by ship to say Egypt, then a new egyptian assassin could be introduced and he tracks the object across the pyramids and up the nile to see it heading to italy where we play as Ezio then on to england and the middle ages with knights and an new english assassin tracking Haythams grandfather.... then later it goes to the carribean and we play as an assassin (maybe one that kenway helps) then the object heads north to the USA and maybe we play as a young Achilles davenport (connors mentor) ..... the possibilities are endless... that is the beauty of the game... it's possible to play through all different times and characters. The trouble comes when trying to incorporate all the armour/weapons/styles of play into 1 cross game.
But the only limits are imagination

Dome500
02-04-2014, 02:02 AM
Yeah, I am well aware of those advantages of the series. I agree.


But I think if Ubisoft tired a little harder they would also manage to get the story right and include an Assassin/Templar plot that is NOT boring and repetitive.

IN ACIV they instead decided to make it little more than a side story.


he trouble comes when trying to incorporate all the armour/weapons/styles of play into 1 cross game.

I don't understand.
Is that directed towards the armor/weapons comment?

I do not want ALL things from the series to be in ever game, I only want that they have more armor, weapons and stuff again.
And more Assassin gameplay in a reasonable context (and not so loosely bound).

To be honest with you, IMO, they could have let the whole Assassin and Templar plot out and they might even have made a better game out of Black Flag.
Because the way it is now it seems to be only in to be in and please the AC fans who want their Assassin plot, only to justify the name they used.

jeffies04
02-04-2014, 02:42 AM
Previously, we saw extraordinary people who were basically born into the Assassins in one form or another (Altair and Ezio). Now, we're seeing what happens when ordinary people come into contact with the Assassins/Templars.

Now I wasn't a big fan in the way they did it with Connor (go seek this mysterious man oooh ahhh) but it I thought it was much better done with Edward. It's the reason the Assassins weren't in your face in 4... because Edward was an ordinary guy with his own goals and path and he didn't buy into the dandy mystics he originally thought the Assassins were.

At the end Anne Bonney said it perfectly when Edward asked if she would stay with the Assassins, who had taken her in and cared for her after the loss of her baby. "No, I haven't got that kind of conviction in my heart." Neither did Edward in the beginning, until he was really shown the true ways of things and realized what they were about.

Now I will say that I felt like the game wrapped up too fast after Edward officially joins the Assassins. The missions just went too fast and there wasn't enough plot surrounding the Rogers/Sage/Torres kills. There was room for so much story here. I understand after he kills Torres he gets the Earth-shattering news about his wife and daughter, but before this point there could have been another couple hours. Building on his relationship between Ade and Ah Tabai, showing him truly coming into his new self.

strigoi1958
02-04-2014, 04:35 AM
I don't understand.
Is that directed towards the armor/weapons comment?.

yes at present the series has different ways to gain weapons and armour so it would be difficult to increase weapons and armour while visiting several ages through time and playing as several different assassins...
the weapons/ armour could only be bought or crafted during those specific memories.... unless a way could be found to save the better / improved weapons across the different times or maybe access them in the animus and choose which weapons in which memory. I guess that way we each could choose to either buy or craft

Dome500
02-04-2014, 03:46 PM
Now I will say that I felt like the game wrapped up too fast after Edward officially joins the Assassins. The missions just went too fast and there wasn't enough plot surrounding the Rogers/Sage/Torres kills. There was room for so much story here. I understand after he kills Torres he gets the Earth-shattering news about his wife and daughter, but before this point there could have been another couple hours. Building on his relationship between Ade and Ah Tabai, showing him truly coming into his new self.

Yes, indeed. One of many things that I found was a real shame.


yes at present the series has different ways to gain weapons and armour so it would be difficult to increase weapons and armour while visiting several ages through time and playing as several different assassins...

I think I answered that in my last post.

@ The Assassin signature weapons => I did only want to see SOME of them return, since we are in AC4 AFTER the events of ACI+ACII, not all of them.

As for the normal gear, I just had the feeling it was not enough. I did not want to have weapons of the old games here, so that you have more every time. But compared to ACII and the Ezio-Trilogy, AC3 and AC4 just had way less variety of weapon and almost no armor at all in that way, although they lived in times were armor was still used. Other sorts of armor, sure, but still armor.


the weapons/ armour could only be bought or crafted during those specific memories.... unless a way could be found to save the better / improved weapons across the different times or maybe access them in the animus and choose which weapons in which memory. I guess that way we each could choose to either buy or craft

Why save it across different times?

I only want more variety of armor (not outfits, ARMOR) to buy and craft in Black Flag. And more weapons.
All I got was swords and pistols of different strengths, and basically no real armor to protect my body.

strigoi1958
02-04-2014, 04:14 PM
well as most games progress the weapons and armour gets upgraded as the story progresses... but if it were set across several different memories it would mean starting off at the bottom level every time... so all the effort put in would mean nothing unless an XP system was introduced. There's nothing wrong with starting each memory and gaining better equipment but the final memory should have some benefit from all the hard work...

Dome500
02-04-2014, 10:27 PM
well as most games progress the weapons and armour gets upgraded as the story progresses... but if it were set across several different memories it would mean starting off at the bottom level every time... so all the effort put in would mean nothing unless an XP system was introduced. There's nothing wrong with starting each memory and gaining better equipment but the final memory should have some benefit from all the hard work...

Sorry, I seriously don't understand you.

I did never recommend the game to be set across different memories, and AC4 is not set in that way.

The only thing I complained about is that there are less weapons and armor to choose from compared to Assassins Creed II, Brotherhood and Revelations.

strigoi1958
02-05-2014, 02:02 AM
Sorry I tend to ramble... I was simply adding to my previous post to say if memories in the future were spread across time then everyone would get their small section that they like. Personally..... when I feel nostalgic I replay revelations as it is still awesome even compared to many games released recently.... but I want to move forward. That means new, new fighting mechanics, new ways of acquiring protection, new weapons etc... (plus I remember the outcry when people said don't buy brotherhood because it was so similar to AC2 that people said it was just an extension... Ubi heard and moved forward) as long as the hidden blade remains, it's all good to me.
The ships in AC3 were great and the extended ship parts in AC4 are incredible... I often leave it sailing around in the background when I'm doing something else just to hear the shanties and the sound effects.
I understand what you are asking for and the options may come back in the next one... but that depends on where it was set and when... in all honesty I don't remember people in the Caribbean wearing armour at that time, perhaps spanish conquistadors did but not pirates so it wouldn't make sense but maybe next time it will.
You may love the next one and maybe I will not but I doubt it.
And as far as I recall... regardless of how many weapons we had... we could only carry a small, a heavy and a sword... plus crossbow, poison darts and throwing knives... in ac4 there's Swords, blowpipe, hiddenblades, pistols, ropedart, musket, dagger and axe (plus the throwing knives taken off spanish officers ? but again you can only choose a limited amount of weapons so it's not something of a big deal to me as I prefer to play the game rather than tinker with the add ons... and as bad as I am in combat I'm only slashing around with a weapon and one seems to be no more effective than any other (well at least in my hands :D)

Dome500
02-05-2014, 02:37 AM
Yeah.

Well, I for my part will see AC as a game that I do not count to the series.

It's loose enough to leave it out of the equation.

Maybe 5 will be more within the franchise again and will have the things I like.

I do really not mind a pirate game or other games of the like, it's just that I would really like to get the good ol AC feeling back while the historical era is responsible for the vast and rich environments, the characters and the background story. That always seemed an amazing combination in my eyes. The Assassins story in the foreground with the historical era in the background, delivering you an amazing package. The amazing thing also was that they started to tell the Assassin/Templar story from different POVs and under different philosophies and moral questions. A shame they did not continue so consistently with it in AC4, for IMO it was rather short of those elements.
There are so many different way to use this formula without the story being boring. It does not always have to be an active fight or a race against time or the like, like AC3 very well showed.

Btw. just to say that I found AC3 horrible, but this little aspect about the game was about the only thing they got right, to tell the Assassin/Templar tale in different ways and from a different POV and in a different situations, with different moral questions compared to the games before.

All of them had different angles on that.

Altair with his dedication to the Creed and his early skill. His lesson about arrogance and about what it means to be an Assassin and his increasing knowledge and wisdom.
Ezio with his story of personal revenge, then his search for freedom and re-building the Assassin Brotherhood, and then with his search for more wisdom and understanding for the fight, though all he found was another mystery. Him being wise enough to lay down his sword that day.
Even Haytham and Connors strive for the same, though so different in believe and method. Tricking us into believing Haytham would be the good guy in the beginning and showing how easy it actually is to end up on the wrong side for the right reasons. Or rather that there are no wrong sides. That it is all shades of grey, a philosophical debate that has been going on since the begin of Civilization.

They were stories that showed different angles, situations, POVs, different understanding, knowledge and wisdom. Different paths, character growths within the themes of the Assassin/Templar wars.

And that is a little bit what I miss.

Edward, as charming as he was and as unique as his era (and therefore story) was, was sadly only at the border of that war, only scratched the surface of what could have been. He was untied to any force or plot or intrigue except of his own pirate-related one. And although some goals of pirates and Assassins might have been the same, I still didn't feel the completeness and the amount of philosophical standpoints I was confronted with in the previous games.

Dome500
02-06-2014, 04:23 PM
Hey,

So we had a discussion on the "Splinter Cell (off topic) forums".
And we talked about AC and some elements, and I came to some new conclusions.

I just thought I'd quote them here, hoping the Community Developer for Assassin Creed or some other people at Ubisoft read it and take the feedback.
I really appreciate the changes made in AC4, and here are some thoughts I had on it in our discussion on the SC forums:




I have to agree. It's a moderately fun game, and I also agree it is miles better than ACIII (minus the first chapters. I did SO want to play Haytham .... ).

I think AC has a lot to learn though:

1. Direct the story back and find a good balance between personal motivation of the character and the Assassins/Templars involvement. IMO the game which achieved this the most was ACII (or rather the whole Ezio Trilogy). There was always something the character personally wanted, but he also knew the Assassin Brotherhood had demands as well. There was a beautiful balance between the two in the Ezio-Trilogy.

2. Gameplay. Take back the free-climbing aspects, the social stealth, but also keep the LOS stealth please. It was a nice addition. Refine those things. Make the fighting system more difficult. In a way to make it not too punishing but also to make it challenging. The character does not need ultimate health (a thing I liked about ACIII was the relatively small health bar, though the regen health was bad.)

3. Controls. Don't over-simplify them. It's the same problem Blacklist had. You want to do one thing but the game does the other thing. More control = less frustration

4. A.I. Improve A.I. I do not want Blacklist-level-A.I., mind you. I want A.I. that is capable of spotting me faster (not too fast), which is looking up sometimes, and a more sophisticated difference between combat, investigation and undisturbed. Also, improve the possibilties to trick A.I., hide in plain sight (more social stealth).

5. No desynchronizations if you get detected or if you do not fulfill the strict parameters of a less open mission. AC4 already made a lot of progress here, but I want more

6. More weapons and armor to choose from. AC4 had a scarce arsenal of different weapon types and different weapons classes, as well as as good as no armor. Maybe that was not common in the age of piracy. But I want it back.

7. Less collectibles. I like collectibles, but the amount of collectibles in AC4:BF was just exhausting. Rather more amazing things like Forts, plantations, assassination missions and the like.

8. Atmosphere. As much as I like a sunny and combat-heavy game sometimes, and I appreciate the change in AC4, as much do I love dark sinister, rainy atmospheres which really underline the whole feeling of an assassin. That's kind of what I miss. Even though AC1 + AC2 had no rain and such stuff, I still felt like the "blade in the crowd" the "demon of the night" when playing my assassination sections. I was the unknown observer, the shadow lurking from the rooftops, listening to your conversations, or being right next to you in the crowd without you knowing. I love that feeling of stalking your prey through masses of people only to make the perfect strike. That is a feeling the first AC games always gave me

9. Location. I'd like to see (in that order of importance): Victorian England, Ancient Egypt, Feudal Japan.

10. Just to come back to the character again. I see so many different ways to tell a unique story. I think the person does not have to be a Templar or an Assassin right away. Maybe he is a Templar at the beginning and switches to the Assassins (never had that as far as I know) or he is not connected to them and then something big (no family deaths please, we already had that) happens that drags him into that world and puts him between the two sides. The character could, instead of seeking revenge or protecting his people or being motivated by money, this time be motivated by justice and doing the right thing. He would then stay between those 2 sides and try to find his own way, sometimes siding with one, sometimes with the other side, sometimes following his own goals. The Assassin uniform could be his because he inherited it from his dead (not recently died) father or because he found it on one of his travels, or for some other reason. There are a lot. Or he sides with one of the groups but decides to stay independent and to determine if he helps them for himself. So many possibilities. And from that point you can start involving moral or philosophical themes, which really came too short in AC4. There were some, true. But they only came in the end and weren't played on that much. I see a lot of potential wasted here. Anyway...



In the end, all I can say is Blag Flag was a good Pirate game and had a satisfying amount of activities with minor flaws.
Compared to previous ACs though the progress and evolution of gameplay is just not enough, even if I really appreciated the Stealth sequences. The story and atmo should get back to the Assassin/Templars in the foreground and the era in the background, finding a balance between personal character motivation and the Assassin/Templar war.

I do not mind one or 2 games in between which have more focus on other things and show you more living and breathing areas and sunny locations, and tell a story only loosely connected to the Assassins, because I can see that those games, especially since AC is delivered every year, give the players the necessary change to still keep with the series.

I just hope they stick to a "more assassins/templars => less conencted => more connected again" pattern to not move to far away from what AC is about. To be honest, telling the story of 2 different characters at abstergo (in the present day) - changing constantly back and forth from game to game, might be a cool way of doing that.



I hope you appreciate the feedback and that it helps you :)

wildheart25c
02-06-2014, 09:22 PM
As someone who's been playing AC for a few consecutive months, I have to say that I am disappointed at the way things are turning. I'm a few hours into AC3 and I find myself wanting to make a post about this after every mission.

I barely started AC3 and I'm already thinking what most of your have written in your posts about AC's storyline direction. But having read enough posts, I think I know enough about how AC3 and AC4 will play out for me.

Here are my thoughts so far. I'm at sequence 4.

I have yet to feel like I'm playing an AC game. There might have been one or two scenes but that's about it. I've been "living" in a particular theme for four games. Now I'm an english assassin running around a town. Many times I felt like I was playing a different game all together with the one exception: hidden blade. Even the new fighting moves/sequences were new. COOOL but new. D Btw, the blade looks wierd. It's more of rectanglish than it is pointy. So even that has changed. Anyways, like I said, I raaaarely felt like I was playing an AC game. This was more like a completely different game with an odd twist of fiction. Like the movie National Treasure

This has nothing to do with this post but I thought I'd mention it anyways. How many of you were surprised when Haytham turned out to be a templar? :D In fact I think I said WHAT THE at the same time Desmond said it too :D I wouldn't say that this shows how there are diff sides because that would be too philosophical for me BUT it's understandable. Which reminds me, Charles Lee ... there's a big change :P I couldn't decide if Ubisoft was showing us evil templars or the invading savages that killed every native indian in site. whether it's the former or latter, it's too much of a change and too soon. One minute they're all civilized, cool, knowledge seekers, good and the next they're savages and evil :S

So this is how things are for me right now with AC 3. Based on what I've read in this topic, I probably won't be too eager to finish this game any time soon.

I can't remember if dates were displayed in AC 3 scenes but if Etzio's part ended in the early 1500s then I imagine AC 3 is say 50 years later? 100? My point is that I get this change that I'm currently not too excited about :P So the game is becoming less stealthy and Assassin-ish but maybe that's the point in jumping through time. Again, I don't like it but I've been making this excuse since I started AC 3. Different time different place different everything. But if AC 3 is about Conor getting his revenge then Ubisoft really strayed off the Assassin's path :P NO SPOILERS PLZ!!!

From what I understand from the posts in this topic, AC IV is about a pirate whose ideals and beliefs happen to coincide with the Assassins or something like that. Or maybe he crossed paths with that world and became one. I'd like to say more but I don't know what to say because I don't know what is right or wrong since I haven't played AC4 nor even read a review or even the plot.

So let me ask you this just to confirm my own thoughts about the direction AC is going in:-
AC is a series of games about a guy called Desmond who discovers his lineage by reliving his ancestor's (the assassin's) memories. He learns of powerful artifacts called the Apple of Eden which are spread out across the world. They were created by the 1st civilization in hopes to help the current civilization fend off an impending doom. And like any fun history event, there has to be two sides. Good vs Evil. Though in some ways both the Assassins and Templars want the same thing (they do, right?), they go about doing it in different ways. So the question is: Will I get more answers or not? The end of every AC game was like reading more pages of the same story. You learn something new after every chapter. Does this stand for AC3 and AC4 or should I stop now and play the rest of the series some years later after Ubisoft makes a better AC game? It's clear that 3 and 4 are no AC games setting wise. But least give me answers to this impending doom issue!

Does Conor even look for the Apple? Spoil but don't spoil too much. The point is to look for the apple. Etzio did it in 2 games. We're moving to new timeline. I thought Haytham was carrying on the AC mission by looking for the apple. Well he is. In a way. But now that Conor will become the Assassin (if he doesn't then this game is stupid :P), will he look for it? Or is this just a game for revenge? :P


Btw, whoever responds to this: no spoilers plz. I still intend on finishing AC3. Don't know about AC4 after having read this topic but still :P

guidomista
02-06-2014, 10:15 PM
hi,
To be honest, I have to admit that AC3 and AC4 are awsome games.... but they are barely in assassin's mood.
Actually, i think in these games, assassin's mood and wonderfulness are inversely proportional.
I think they tryed not to eliminate that atmosphere, but to change it.
And I think they did it right, in part.
In AC3 the forest (with or without snow) gives you another kind of atmosphere, wilder.
In AC4 I get impressed in watching the water... and then the wonderful caribbean views.
Watching the ship sealing from the farest POV, with sea shanties in background, reminded me a moving painting. I appreciate it.
.. But still there are some player (like us) who loved THAT atmosphere of the first chapters, and hope ubisoft go back to the real Creed...

AC4 is even farther from the Creed. But it is a much better game than AC3.

Wildheart25c, I suggest you to play them not thinking that you're playing AC games.
Otherwise you'll get disappointed.
I can't tell you more without spoilering...

bye

Dome500
02-06-2014, 11:22 PM
Will I get more answers or not?

Let me say that much.
You will get answers, but not those you'd expect and not as much as you'd like to.

In the end, like always, you end up having more question than answers. Just with the difference that this time the next game does not continue to give them to you.

My personal opinion of course.


But least give me answers to this impending doom issue!

You'll get answers on that as well, but like I said, not as you expected.


But now that Conor will become the Assassin (if he doesn't then this game is stupid :P), will he look for it? Or is this just a game for revenge? :P

It's both. The problem is the balance of the two IMO.

And that parts of it are pretty one-dimensional. Connor as well for example.

Btw. I do not see Assassins VS Templars as Good VS Evil. I see it more as a representation of 2 opposed philosophies wanting the same thing.
Both do their best to reach the right outcome with the very means they believe in.

While the Templars choose illusion, control and suppression to force peace, the assassins protect the freedom of human development and want to achieve piece through knowledge and progress.
2 sides of a medal.

But both philosophies have their problems.

"I applied my heart to know wisdom, and to know madness and folly. I perceived that this also was a chasing at the wind. For in much wisdom, is much grief, and he that increaseth knowledge, increaseth sorrow."

strigoi1958
02-07-2014, 01:50 AM
I see it more as people in the present day looking for the apple through memories ANY memories as long as the people in the memory have the ability, they can be templar, assassin or someone with their own agenda...
I guess that allows me to accept that all the "people" in the memories/ animus are different with varying personalities and goals. If every one of them was just a fully fledged assassin with just assassin goals then we'd go back to the "brotherhood problem" when brotherhood came out people said
"don't buy it... it is just an extension of AC2, it's exactly the same so wait for revelations".

Ubi obviously took this on board and no doubt were too far into ACR to change and so AC3 became new and different... some people don't like change and others do, but continuing in a set pattern would undoubtedly start getting poor reviews and losing fans apart from the hard core... and let's face it this is about making a product sellable to a huge audience, not keeping purists happy (but if both are possible then great). When you find out about Haytham and what he is... that was a great twist. Connors own agenda was also great especially as his ties to his own race meant he had no allegiance to either side in the war and even had to kill some people he cared about.
AC3 naval battles got good feedback so Ubi had to follow the market and I think making Edward the way he is... has allowed them to do it... A reluctant assassin, money hungry man who just happened to have a link/ bloodline that meant he could be accessed through the animus.
Ac4 has a feedback at the end of each memory so all the things with high marks will gain more focus and low marks will get those things moved down the lists of priority.
I think AC4 is an assassin game but maybe it is just missing the creed... but then as Edward isn't exactly an assassin then the creed is probably not there for him, apart from that everything else is there but in a new form.

mgdiock
02-07-2014, 08:18 PM
I really took interest in this thread, and want to thank all participants for the enlightening conversation. Here is my take on "the creed": When AC1 came out, you had Altair during the Third Crusade in a formalized compound where Assassins were trained to be just that. Their life was to be an Assassin for the Mentor. You had the three tenets. It was very structured. The thing I want to point out is that the times, the weapons, and the situations all changed from this first game as time progressed. I believe what all of the follow on games show is the natural progression of a decentralized Brotherhood. In a sense, it is no different than people in two different countries. There are things that we do that is similar like get up in the morning: eat breakfast, perform work, and go to bed; but there are many things that are different: what we eat for breakfast, what we do for work, what type of bed we sleep in. To this point, Ezio was mentored from birth, and didn't even know it. That was cut short by the death of his Father, but continued by his Uncle. Connor's mentoring came later, but he was naturally gifted as a Native American with his prowess for hunting and climbing. We really don't know a lot about Edward's abilities outside of the fact he was a pirate. The state of the Assassins Order in each of these situations was also quite different. For Ezio, he had a base and helped his Uncle find Altair's codex. This resulted in some of the familiarity between the Italian and Levantine branches of the Assassins. Connor found Achilles, but it was an order that was in shambles. Obviously, much of what the Assassins were and did was forgotten. Some of it was ignored due to Connor's own internal struggles. Edward's situation was even more unique than any of these. Weapons over the span of 700 years also change. Let's face it, armor on a 17th century Assassin wouldn't make sense. Ezio and Altair's armor blunted the attack of bladed weapons. Bullets are a different story. It could even be argued that an Assassin would not have dressed like Ezio or in robes or armor at all after the 1000's, because how does this help an Assassin blend into the crowd? Regular dress would be much more effective. A modern Assassin would be more of a hit-man than a guy running around in an overly embellished bathrobe hoodie.

So with all of this said, Ubisoft has done a remarkable job with the story telling here. I do buy the games for the story as well as the game play. I think the premise that Ubi has gone in the wrong direction is a false one. A proper question would be: Does our ideal view of an Assassin (Altair or Ezio type) belong in the time periods that are being explored in the more recent games of ACIII and ACIV? The straight answer is no. To have an Assassin the wears armor, yields various blades, and follows a tighter version of the creed would require that Assassin to live in Europe or Asia in a period from the fall of the Roman Empire through the European Renaissance.

One last thing- I would love to see an AC game set before the end of the first civilization. The Adam and Eve video and the video of the First Civ (can't remember if it was at the end of Brotherhood or Revelations) left me hungry for more.

Just my 2 cents.

strigoi1958
02-07-2014, 10:07 PM
I think that was what I was trying to say but you put it so much better...:D

each era has different weapons and disguises and protection that is relevant to that particular time... it stops the series getting old and as the setting this time was in an area of islands then a pirate /sailor seemed the best option and as much as I loved this one I can fully understand the concern of those who felt that the sailing overshadowed the assassin section. I see it similar to the flying or horse riding.... just a method of transport... but the shanties, storms and sea battles better than shooting from the glider while looking for fire to gain height (even though that was awesome :D)
Next time might be more structured and along the lines of the earlier ones although if I can skip any of those timed climbing sections that had me close to smashing my pc to a pile of rubble... I'd be a lot happier ;)

triggrnc
02-08-2014, 01:00 AM
Previously, we saw extraordinary people who were basically born into the Assassins in one form or another (Altair and Ezio). Now, we're seeing what happens when ordinary people come into contact with the Assassins/Templars.

Nail on the head.
Some Assassins were no doubt born into the order and some joined in their later years. Maybe they thought it would be good to show an origin story of the guy who had no interest or knowledge who, once aware of the Assassins, found his greed and avarice give way tot he assassin ways. For me it was a nice change of pace and adds variety to the narrative instead of treading the well worn Templar vs Assassins backdrop

BarmyTaffster
02-08-2014, 08:57 AM
So with all of this said, Ubisoft has done a remarkable job with the story telling here. I do buy the games for the story as well as the game play. I think the premise that Ubi has gone in the wrong direction is a false one. A proper question would be: Does our ideal view of an Assassin (Altair or Ezio type) belong in the time periods that are being explored in the more recent games of ACIII and ACIV? The straight answer is no. To have an Assassin the wears armor, yields various blades, and follows a tighter version of the creed would require that Assassin to live in Europe or Asia in a period from the fall of the Roman Empire through the European Renaissance.

.

I agree with you on the story telling 100%. I think that's what's drawn me more to the game than the actual physicality of it. For a 50 something year old I'm also enlightened by the research that has gone into these games everything in general from Names, Places & Items. Can you also imagine my surprise playing Black Flag that Edward Kenway was a Welshman from Swansea sadly with hardly any welsh accent to his voice but there were a few characters with welsh accents which was pretty amusing. Then there's Bartholomew Roberts from Casnewydd Bach which is only a short distance from my birth town of Tenby... Yes I'm a Welshman too!! lol.

I've played many games since computers have been introduced and have to say without a doubt that not only have the Assassins Creed games been fun to play but educational too and hope they keep up with this product regardless of the negative thoughts many people keep throwing back at UBI.

Dome500
02-08-2014, 05:08 PM
I guess that allows me to accept that all the "people" in the memories/ animus are different with varying personalities and goals. If every one of them was just a fully fledged assassin with just assassin goals then we'd go back to the "brotherhood problem" when brotherhood came out people said
"don't buy it... it is just an extension of AC2, it's exactly the same so wait for revelations".

Sure.

No one wants that.
And if anyone thought I would then he didn't understand what I was saying.

My problem was not that the protagonist is not a fully fledged Assassin, my problem is rather the lack of a real connection. Edward was very loosely connected to the Assassins and just at the moment, towards the end, where he became involved, the game was over.

That's the problem.

I don't care if Assassin or Templar, or heavily involved but following his own plan, the point is that Black Flag had not enough involvement of the Templars/Assassin IMO and that the type of the little involvement was pretty much the same again, 3 or 4 Templar Masters wanting control and Assassin wanting to stop that.

I appreciated the Military/Templar and Pirates/Assassin pairing, but again, I would have preferred something we hadn't see before, and I would have preferred if the Templars/Assassin would have been more in the center than they were. And yes, I believe this is achievable, even with a protagonist that stands between the two sides or follows his own goals while being heavily involved with both sides.


When you find out about Haytham and what he is... that was a great twist

Agreed.

Although I would have LOVED to play the whole game as Haytham non the less. ;)


Let's face it, armor on a 17th century Assassin wouldn't make sense.

I agree to a degree.

The I wanted to underline though is, you actually SEE armor on Edwards outfit, you just can't customize it, upgrade it or buy better versions.
Also, if sword fights are regular in the 17th century they should at least be able to wear light armor.

But again, that is not the main point, even if I would have liked to see it. The weapons are also not that diverse this time around IMO. Maybe just a product of the era. If that's the reason then I apologize and take it back and hope next time we get an era with more weapons and armor.


I think the premise that Ubi has gone in the wrong direction is a false one.

No, I don't say they go in a wrong direction.

All I am saying is that they - from what it looks at the moment - are going in a direction I personally do not like. And I listed the things I miss to show them what in particular I would like to see next time around.


although if I can skip any of those timed climbing sections that had me close to smashing my pc to a pile of rubble... I'd be a lot happier

on that we can agree :D

guidomista
02-08-2014, 06:00 PM
...then we'd go back to the "brotherhood problem" when brotherhood came out people said
"don't buy it... it is just an extension of AC2, it's exactly the same so wait for revelations".

Who told that?
I'll kill them all slyly... XD

IF it was true, I would say:
"buy it! it is a a very large extension of AC2! Awsome!"
But it's not even true. It introduced the bortherhood concept and the multiplayer, for example.
Well, I also have a particolar affection for ACB, cause I'm from Rome...
And about educational side, I have to admit I learned a lot of stuff i didn't know about my city with that game...
Teach history to kids by making them carry out killings in a videogame. Sounds nice, for me :)
I read all historical ingame notes, from AC to ACR. Learn a lot of interesting things.
I read first ones in AC3, then I realized I didn't give anything about New York City Hall historical notes...

I'm sorry, but I'm pretty sure even american players can admit it... As historical scenarios, Europe and Asia have more potencial than the New World.
Africa or Australia have no potencial, IMO.
The ancient egypt has a Mediterranean history. I immagine some kind of mixture between AC and ACR, but very very ancient.
But I have no idea if it could work. Really, big question mark about Ancient Egypt.
If someone think it could be a good choice, I appreciate to know his POV.

bye

strigoi1958
02-08-2014, 11:28 PM
Although I would have LOVED to play the whole game as Haytham non the less. ;)

I think you'll find there's a huge number of us Haytham fans all willing to play out haythams story from initiation into the templars right up to leaving england.... if anyone at Ubi is listening :D... I think there's a large number of people ready to pre-purchase right now... where do I pay :D

That is a story/ memory worth having and it would be nice to see it from our side... I mean the Templar side :rolleyes:

Dome500
02-13-2014, 09:45 PM
Yeah, I'm not that pro-Templar.

I just like Haythams character and his English charm.

Would really love to see a game in Victorian England or England in the 17th century (at the time of the Glorious Revolution).

Anyway...

Like I said, I like a lot about the new AC.

For example the way better side missions such as smuggler caves, forts, diving and plantations (even though the assassin missions are just too unconnected to the main story, only motivation of Edward being money in 2/3 of the game), the re-focus on stealth in some parts, the cool outfits, the way you can hit-and-run with the hidden blade, more bushes, attacking non-lethally from a bush or from cover, the emotional part later on in the story.

What I wish from the next AC though is the following:


More "Assassin" feeling and atmosphere again. I don't mind if the character is a Templar, Assassin or in between. Just give me the feeling of the blade in the crowd back, the rooftop demon. The Silent Killer.
A more sophisticated and challenging fighting system
Better A.I. => that means faster detections, but also more investigating if they saw or heard something (don't worry, I don't want to make this a hardcore Stealth game, I just want a real (mediocre) Stealth system)
The Stealth System as said above => I want Stealth to be supported actively. Not like "here you have to sneak, and here you can sneak if you want". Rather design most missions in a way Stealth is a viable option. The character should be able to crouch/sneak even if he is not in some bushes. That reduces the chance of being in the line of sight of an enemy (look at your own game Splinter Cell, not as sophisticated, but the same (slow) crouching animation). I want the possibility of being really Stealthy. AC always had a half-cooked LOS Stealth system, but never improved on it until AC4. Keep going with that.
Social Stealth => Give me the option for Social Stealth back. I know in the Caribbean setting the Social Stealth was redundant and I understand. But next time around, especially if (but also if not) we are in cities with big populations again, social stealth is very important and was a unique addition. Take the social stealth of old and refine the forumla
More non-lethal possibilities. I loved the blow pipe sleep darts and the option to K.O. More of that
Distraction tools. I often found myself in a smuggler cave or somewhere else and saw a lot of enemies standing on one place. It is nice to actually whistle to get and enemy close to you, it would be cool though to be able to also lure them away from you. Revelations already had such a tool. And even though bombs were really redundant and not needed that much, I think you could include and distraction tool in the next game
More far ranged silent weapons. Blow pipes are cool, but I would have liked things like throwing knifes, a crossbow or something similar to return. That would have given me another option for Stealth play.
Better Controls => Look, simplicity is good to a degree. But what you did with AC3/AC4 was just making it too simple and causing a lot of input =/= action errors and misunderstandings the player himself was not responsible for. Something like that is frustrating. Especially in an environment that is so intractable it is important to give the player more control over what he is doing with what and where he is going.
Less collectibles (More of a personal wish, I just don't like it if you have to collect 100 of X and 100 of Y, 30 - 40 of each is enough for me, especially if there are a lot of different types of collectibles)
Kill or Spare => A nice addition would also be to let us choose if we want to kill some targets or not. Not the main Targets, mind you. But regarding Assassinations in side missions or even an assassination in a main mission it would be cool if we get to make a moral choice to let someone live or if we want to kill him. Of course this choice should be embedded logically in the storyline.
More Freedom and Stealth when doing side activities like Forts => It would be cool to have the OPTION (not forced but optional) to sneaking into a fort, kill the military leaders silently and then let your crew attack or capture the rest of the men. Now, I know there will probably be no Forts next time, at least no naval forts, but bare with me. Think of that concept when constructing new side activities similar to the forts or plantations. I want an option to infiltrate Assassin-style and take the thing that way. Of course you would have to do things like Kill the Leader of the Fort/Base/Whatever, to disable defensive measures and stuff. Maybe even the option to let your crew/team/brotherhood/whatever attack the Fort once you did that in order to kill those who still want to fight or just to conquer the whole thing and raise another flag. A Stealth option. I really love the combat, but I also like if things like that are more free and less the same over and over again. Important here is:

Option to go Stealth or Combat
Multiple ways to get in / tackle the situation from
I think in an open world game something like this should be possible and it would increase replay value and long time motivation, even if you just have 2 options for each.
Another small addition: If we choose combat and conquered the fort/base/whatever, and we open the door to the main room, give us the option to either kill or spare the "steward/lord/whatever" of the base (this is not a must, would be a nice touch though) Assassins are not mass murderers after all, they are only killing chosen targets or if they need to survive in combat.

A minor thing, but: Give us the option to equip/unequip our hood, to take it down or to draw it over our head when we like to.
Another thing: I liked the Brotherhood. => Don't get me wrong. ACB's Brotherhood was way too OP. But it would be nice to have 1 or 2 assistants in the next AC to order them different things like Distracting with Conversation, Stealing from Enemies, Attacking Enemies, Or Assassinating enemies (attacking them silently). I also liked the "starting revolt" ability from AC3. Think about something. It don't have to be Assassins. You can do similar stuff with a Pirate Crew, "Friends" of the protagonist or similar people. What I'd really like to see is not the ability to call them over and over without loading times, and also not the ability to get a lot of people to call (like in Brotherhood), but rather to have 2 or 3 people you can call, which would stay with you for 1 or 2 minutes (unless you "release" them) and you could order them a variety of different things. (Hold "Assassin Button/Key" and Press "X" to Distract by Stealing, Press "Y" to start revolt, press "Z" to.... , you know what I mean. That would be cool.


It's a list in progress and I might add stuff to it.

IMO AC4 was a good standalone game, but not as good an AC game - seen in the context of previous AC games and their general concept - like I said.
A lot of things got improved, and the main example are the way more interesting side missions.

Keep up the good work and make a good, interesting, refreshing and AC-like AC5 please.
Thanks for reading :)