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View Full Version : Please don't forget "kamikaze" function



RiesenSchnauzer
04-06-2004, 02:44 AM
In the mission builder for PF it would be nice to have a kamikaze function. The most useful kind would be for the plane (Japanese of course) to hit the nearest ship to the "kamikaze" waypoint, but a targetting function for a specific ship would be nice as well.

I think one very entertaining mission scenario would be to stop the Japanese planes
before they can reach US ships and collide with them.

RiesenSchnauzer
04-06-2004, 02:44 AM
In the mission builder for PF it would be nice to have a kamikaze function. The most useful kind would be for the plane (Japanese of course) to hit the nearest ship to the "kamikaze" waypoint, but a targetting function for a specific ship would be nice as well.

I think one very entertaining mission scenario would be to stop the Japanese planes
before they can reach US ships and collide with them.

MornJW
04-06-2004, 03:27 AM
Not very useful in a campaign. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I think this function is perhaps too limited for use in gameplay to be bothered with.
But then you could always fly escourt missions for them in a campaign. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

luthier1
04-06-2004, 03:57 AM
Oh no, it is very useful in campaigns. Just when you gather up some kills and begin to feel good about yourself in a Japanese campaign, you may be given a one-way mission, and your campaign ends.

And you can't even whine about it because it's historical - and you're complaining about losing campaign progress while the real people actually lost their lives.

That's one way how we can try to put things in perspective http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.il2center.com/PF.jpg

MornJW
04-06-2004, 04:06 AM
But weren't they all volunteers.... Out to answer their countries call for an honorable death.

RiesenSchnauzer
04-06-2004, 04:21 AM
Yes it would be an odd fit for a campaign, but I was more interested in having the function for A.I. planes, not live players.

Extreme_One
04-06-2004, 04:23 AM
Surely it would be very useful for American campaigns where the enemy are performing Kamikaze?!?

S! Simon
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''
Download the USAAF & RAF campaign folders here (http://www.netwings.org/library/Forgotten_Battles/Missions/index-10.html).

Download "North and South" including the Japanese speech-pack here (http://www.netwings.org/library/Forgotten_Battles/Missions/index-12.html). *NEW*

http://server5.uploadit.org/files/simplysimon-spit_sig.jpg

Tully__
04-06-2004, 04:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Extreme_One:
Surely it would be very useful for American campaigns where the _enemy_ are performing Kamikaze?!?

_S! Simon_
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''
Download the USAAF & RAF campaign folders http://www.netwings.org/library/Forgotten_Battles/Missions/index-10.html.

Download "North and South" including the Japanese speech-pack http://www.netwings.org/library/Forgotten_Battles/Missions/index-12.html. _*NEW*_

http://server5.uploadit.org/files/simplysimon-spit_sig.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My thoughts exactly. Ditto for the other allied nations that may have had to defend against such attacks.

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IL2 Forums Moderator
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Salut
Tully

Vengeanze
04-06-2004, 04:32 AM
Don't be so negative, u anti-kamikaze peeps.

It was an aspect of the pacific war and must be considered during implementation of PF.

/Ven

"Maybe for someone more easy to write something than to make something?"
- Oleg Maddox

MornJW
04-06-2004, 04:33 AM
Yeah, I should have thought of that and it would be pretty neat, but then I guess it wouldn't be that different to any interception mission.

Vengeanze
04-06-2004, 04:33 AM
...or I won't buy PF. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/52.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

/Ven

"Maybe for someone more easy to write something than to make something?"
- Oleg Maddox

clint-ruin
04-06-2004, 04:33 AM
From luthiers posts it seems they don't intend to modify existing AI much due to the amount of time it would take to QA such work.

The only thing I can suggest is that some experimentation with the existing V1 or Mistel AI be done so as to set up mock-AI kamikaze units.

http://home.iprimus.com.au/djgwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg

LEXX_Luthor
04-06-2004, 11:28 AM
What would be really sweet is kamikaze attacks by fighters and bombers that were very badly damaged. All sides did this all the time.

As for regular kamikaze attacks, taking of with intent on ramming, all sides should have the kamikaze button in FMB, cos if the WAR didn't go like we want, USA/Brit/Aussie/NZ can use kamikaze button too--and it may actually work to change the WAR back to hehe "normal" in that case.

heywooood
04-06-2004, 12:33 PM
I imagine that if you are using FMB and you want Kamikazi to attack a Fixed base that would be simple.. just set waypoints accordingly and at full speed set the crash point alt. at zero ft....I cant try it now but it should work
if the way point previous to last is like 500ft and right next to tha last w/p which is on top of the airbase or whatever th target is.. right?.

Aztek_Eagle
04-06-2004, 12:42 PM
dont forget that the kamikazes had scorts to, we can be aswell the scorts of the kamikazes

clint-ruin
04-06-2004, 01:05 PM
Object and ground avoidance AI tends to kick in and prevent manual kamikazes from the FMB.

http://home.iprimus.com.au/djgwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg

Harry_M
04-06-2004, 02:24 PM
They played an important role in the latter years, sinking far more US ships than standard aerial attacks did. As such it should be represented.

Perhaps a "pseudo" aircraft object, like the V-1, could be created. A V-1 with a Zero body as it were.

heywooood
04-06-2004, 02:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by clint-ruin:
Object and ground avoidance AI tends to kick in and prevent manual kamikazes from the FMB.

http://home.iprimus.com.au/djgwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Granted ... it "tends" to kick in.... set 6-8 planes to attack in this style - at least 1-2 planes should fail to avoid the ground.

Capt_Harlock
04-06-2004, 06:01 PM
Luthier, Kamikaze pilots were mainly volunteers, the cases in wich they received orders about it were rare (it happened, but only in the very first cases, after that officers never needed to order pilots to perform kamikaze attacks, there were even too many volunteers).
At least that's what i gather from Saburo Sakai's "Samurai!" and i keep that book in high regard as a source of information.
Anyway it would be sweet to have an option to "volunteer" as a kamikaze pilot during the campaign. May be a good way to end one.

heywooood
04-06-2004, 07:15 PM
Ed Zackley !

your ed zackley right!

luthier1
04-06-2004, 07:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by clint-ruin:
From luthiers posts it seems they don't intend to modify existing AI much due to the amount of time it would take to QA such work.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Please don't put words in my mouth http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Where exactly did I say anything like that? Creating a new type of AI for kamikaze attacks, and appropriate FMB changes is exactly what we intend to do for this.

http://www.il2center.com/PF.jpg

heywooood
04-06-2004, 08:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by luthier1:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by clint-ruin:
From luthiers posts it seems they don't intend to modify existing AI much due to the amount of time it would take to QA such work.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Please don't put words in my mouth http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Where exactly did I say anything like that? Creating a new type of AI for kamikaze attacks, and appropriate FMB changes is exactly what we intend to do for this.

http://www.il2center.com/PF.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Shock and awe, baby - Banzai!!!

DONB3397
04-06-2004, 08:16 PM
Kamikazes didn't show up as a tactic until very late in the war. I don't know how you program AI to function at different levels and with different triggers-responses for various stages of the Pacific War.

At the outset, few historians dispute Japanese pilot qualitative superiority. These skilled fliers were lost through attrition...Midway and a long Solomons Campaign. By the Mariannas Campaign, Japanese pilots were inexperienced and, according to Horikoshi in the book, "Zeros," poorly trained. Their aircraft were no longer technically superior.

Only then, when the IJN operations officers understood the war was lost, did kamikazes become a factor. Even then, it was in homeland defense...not an offensive strategy.

The concept of suicide planes is interesting, maybe even strangely attractive for a sim like ours. But, in my opinion, not a core element.

I'd hate to see it become the tactic-of-choice just because it's so dramatic (and final). It should be the same as it was in the war...a measure of last resort.

http://us.f2.yahoofs.com/bc/3fe77b7e_1812a/bc/Images/Sig---1.jpg?BCMwWcABz_3TLZQo
There is no 'way' of winning;
There is only Winning!

heywooood
04-06-2004, 08:21 PM
Maybe - if a pilot had to earn the right to be a Kamikazi

So many missions or so many points accrued could "unlock" the position?.. goes contrary to real history - more experienced pilots were probably not allowed to volunteer - but something similar might work in a sim.

luthier1
04-06-2004, 08:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DONB3397:
Kamikazes didn't show up as a tactic until very late in the war. I don't know how you program AI to function at different levels and with different triggers-responses for various stages of the Pacific War.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's a misconception. There were organized Japanese suicide raids against enemy targets throughout the war - it's just that the movement known as Divine Wind, with pilots specifically drafted and trained for the purpose, did not start out until the last year of the war.

http://www.il2center.com/PF.jpg

DONB3397
04-06-2004, 08:40 PM
Different sources may disagree on this point. I don't question that the "death-before-dishonor" code encouraged pilots who had no hope of returning (because of wounds or damage) to give value to their death with suicide dives. But neither Sakai in "Samurai" or Horikoshi in "Zero" ever mentioned this as a trained specialty, or even group tactic, until after the loss of Rabaul and the approach to the Phillipines.

I'll do some additional research, but I'm surprised that there was formal plan to use suicide a/c earlier.

http://us.f2.yahoofs.com/bc/3fe77b7e_1812a/bc/Images/Sig---1.jpg?BCMwWcABz_3TLZQo
There is no 'way' of winning;
There is only Winning!

clint-ruin
04-06-2004, 10:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by luthier1:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by clint-ruin:
From luthiers posts it seems they don't intend to modify existing AI much due to the amount of time it would take to QA such work.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Please don't put words in my mouth http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Where exactly did I say anything like that? Creating a new type of AI for kamikaze attacks, and appropriate FMB changes is exactly what we intend to do for this.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry about that - I somehow got that idea from this thread over here:

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=26310365&m=418106723&r=418106723#418106723

..where you said that you have no intention on spending time reworking ship AI due to the time involved, and that plane AI is uncomparably more complex.

Sorry I misintepreted that.

Good to know that we're getting kamikazes! Thanks for the good news :&gt;

http://home.iprimus.com.au/djgwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg

Gen_Strike
04-06-2004, 10:28 PM
ride me sideways,
theres gonna be so much to do when this comes out.
Luthier, how does one model planes for il2?
I can do 3dsm modelling work but havent a clue where to start if i wanted to do it for the game, whats the format for models and how do they get submitted etc.

luthier1
04-06-2004, 10:31 PM
Email me at Luthier@il2center.com - send some screenshots of your work if you have them - and we'll take it from there.

http://www.il2center.com/PF.jpg

CornbreadPattie
04-07-2004, 08:46 AM
It's can't be TOO hard to make Kamikazes. Dynamix had AI kamikazes that you had to intercept 10 years ago.

Maybe you can be in your dynamic campaigne, and if you're stationed with a group that was known to take kamikaze volunteers, then you could be proposed with an option in between missions.

"There is a new kind of deadly weapon sure to prevent the enemy invasion of the mainland. We are using a deadly accurate bomb that will be sure to sink an American carrier! But to make it so accurate, we need a pilot to guide the plane to his target. He will not return. He will be gloriously honored by his country and will make front pages of the largest papers. This is volunteer only, so to volunteer, write "yes" on the back of your identification card and drop it in my box.

"yes" or "no"

It's just an idea.

sugaki
04-07-2004, 08:34 PM
Mostly volunteers? That's not accurate. Many were airmen fresh out of flight school. In the final stages of the war, they were so desperate that it wasn't on a volunteer basis, though some did volunteer.

Kamikaze should have a place in the game as Kamikaze escort missions. Skilled pilots for the most part served as escorts in the Shidenkai's, Ki-100's (though some Ki-100's were used for kamikaze), Ki-84's.

-Aki

Dnmy
04-08-2004, 01:12 AM
Kamikaze is best left up to the AI.

Ace AI or rookie, any will do.

michapma
04-08-2004, 02:42 AM
All AI on the ground are already suicidal. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-mad.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Just guessing of course, but I suppose that you need two things for the AI: turn off the collision avoidance algorithm when approaching target, and a way to have the aircraft take one of a varying number of approaches to its target.

I especially like the idea someone mentioned of heavily damaged aircraft attempting to make a suicide run on enemy targets, especially if they are unable to bail out. I imagine some pilots had their crew bail and then steered the plane in. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

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Extreme_One
04-08-2004, 05:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by luthier1:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by clint-ruin:
From luthiers posts it seems they don't intend to modify existing AI much due to the amount of time it would take to QA such work.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Please don't put words in my mouth http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Where exactly did I say anything like that? Creating a new type of AI for kamikaze attacks, and appropriate FMB changes is exactly what we intend to do for this.

http://www.il2center.com/PF.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


HOORAY!!!!

Luthier you are THE MAN
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

S! Simon
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''
Download the USAAF & RAF campaign folders here (http://www.netwings.org/library/Forgotten_Battles/Missions/index-10.html).

Download "North and South" including the Japanese speech-pack here (http://www.netwings.org/library/Forgotten_Battles/Missions/index-12.html). *NEW*

http://server5.uploadit.org/files/simplysimon-spit_sig.jpg