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BATISTABUS
01-24-2014, 07:53 PM
I know the original thread was locked and I know doing something like this might be against the rules, but I just really wanted to say something about this topic.

After so many "Do you wish AC would go back to it's roots?" and "AC4 HAD NO ASSASSINS" and "STOP THE ANNUAL RELEASES" threads, this kind of discussion is refreshing, and these are the kinds of things I want to talk about on these forums. The author had an extremely valid point, and most people dismissed it as something it was most certainly not. The author was not being sexist in any way, and dismissing this point as "AC is not real" or "Ubisoft is going to do it regardless" are worthless points for anyone who cares about the lore of the series. This person was not trashing AC as a franchise, they were just talking about something potentially problematic that they observed. If this is completely inconsequential to you...then just don't post in this thread. I don't post in threads I don't care about all the time and it works out just fine for me.

One of the largest appeals of the series is how plausible everything could be. Even though the First Civilization stuff seems magic, every bit of it is justified by being future technology or aliens or whatever, which is unknown technology to us, but nothing is described specifically enough to be denounced as wrong. The Animus explicitly is said to accesses a persons memory through their DNA. A person is able to pass on their DNA UP TO THE POINT WHEN THEIR GAMETE IS CREATED. For a man, that would be his sperm. For a woman, that would be her egg. If a females eggs are indeed ALL created when she is born, then a female CANNOT pass on her MEMORY BY MEANS OF BIOLOGICAL DESCENDANCE. Of course females have DNA. Of course females can pass on their DNA. A person's DNA changes over the course of their life, and a person's DNA can be accessed through cells that are not gametes. But according to that bit of information, females cannot pass on their memory to their offsprings. That does not mean that it is impossible to access the genetic memory of a female, that just means it is NOT possible to access the genetic memories of a female through the DNA of her DESCENDANT. This is a very important point.

So what does that mean? That means female memories can be revisited by means of other DNA collection, which so far in AC only seems to be the blood vials. This would allow researchers to access DNA up to a few days before the person lost their blood. This would be an extremely useful tool to gather the genetic memories of someone who never had children. So maybe that could be how they accessed Aveline's memories, right?

The uncovering of the genetic memory of Aveline is a result of research conducted on Subject 1. Here is the information taken from AC4 about subject one from the AC wiki.

"Sometime around 1981, he (Subject 1) was made to view the genetic memories of his ancestor, Aveline de Grandpré, while they were recorded by Abstergo. Eventually, in 2012, the memories were used as the basis for the Abstergo Entertainment video game, Liberation."

This explicitly says they used the descendant to access the memories of Aveline, which would not be possible according to when the gametes were created. Unless someone here has an advanced background in biology and can say that the eggs are NOT all created at birth, then this is certainly a plot hole. If you're going to use VAGUE science (as in the case of TWCB), that's fine, but if you're going to be SPECIFIC about how the science works, there cannot be a basic error like this.

Okay, so how could this be retconned? According to the wiki...

"By the 1980s, Abstergo Industries had taken great interest in securing more vials, finding dozens since then. Of all of those recovered, only three vials had the DNA inside fully intact, and only one of the three contained the blood of a First Civilization member. In 2013, Abstergo described them in an internal memo, along with other First Civilization artifacts."

So we know Abstergo has 3 vials around the time of the beginnings of the Animus project. Cool. We know one contained the blood of a First Civilization member. Does that mean someone that is 100% First Civ? Aveline can use Eagle Vision, so does she have enough First Civ DNA to be labeled as such? Assuming one of those vials contained the blood of Aveline, why would they need her descendant? Well, Abstergo only recently developed the Cloud, so perhaps Subject 1 would be more compatible with the DNA? That does seem kind of like working backwards, but if something along those lines were indeed to be the case, then I would like an official explanation/clarification.

Again, just a disclaimer.

I am NOT saying that it is impossible to access the genetic memory of a female.
I am NOT saying that I don't want female protagonists (I DO).
I am NOT saying that Aveline is not canon.

I AM saying that a significant portion of the appeal of AC is its plausibility, and something like this DOES hurt the lore.
I AM saying that this is an inconsistency and may need to be retconned unless more biological information can be provided to justify the REAL scientific basis.
I AM saying that it was unfair to lock the previous thread, and the reaction by certain posting members was ridiculous.

I do not feel that the poster violated the rules in any way when he started this thread. I have not seen this discussion in quite a long time, so despite a thread possibly existing on this topic months/years ago, I think it is okay to start a newer, more relevant one now that we have specific information on Subject 1 and the blood vials.

This is a new member with under 20 posts. When I first visited these forums, I was also met with unacceptable behavior from posters and unfair/unresponsive treatment from mods that made me quite angry. I ended up leaving for over a year. I hope this doesn't happen to Bozosaurus76.

LoyalACFan
01-24-2014, 08:08 PM
I AM saying that a significant portion of the appeal of AC is its plausibility, and something like this DOES hurt the lore.

I disagree with this very statement, so I therefore can't agree with your overall post. The "science" of genetic memory is already spotty within the AC canon. For instance, we were able to view Altair's memories up until the point his child was conceived, but the sperm cell that would eventually become half of Sef ibn la'Ahad was already created and riding around in Altair's genitals probably a day or two before that. So technically, we shouldn't have been able to see anything past the point where Altair's body generated that sperm cell, but we did.

Plus there's the obvious stuff like leaps of faith which are obviously implausible (and can't be attributed to the Animus since Desmond, Clay, and Cross all performed one) and nobody complains about the terminal velocity of the Assassin's body, or how much hay you'd need to cushion the fall, or what have you. It just is what it is, and at the end of the day it's still a fantasy. A little pseudoscience is OK here and there.

ze_topazio
01-24-2014, 08:12 PM
It's a interesting theory but the concept of genetic memories, while based on actual real world theory, is fiction, so they can do whatever they want with it.

BATISTABUS
01-24-2014, 08:20 PM
So technically, we shouldn't have been able to see anything past the point where Altair's body generated that sperm cell
I agree and I think that is an inconsistency.


Plus there's the obvious stuff like leaps of faith which are obviously implausible (and can't be attributed to the Animus since Desmond, Clay, and Cross all performed one) and nobody complains about the terminal velocity of the Assassin's body, or how much hay you'd need to cushion the fall, or what have you. It just is what it is, and at the end of the day it's still a fantasy. A little pseudoscience is OK here and there.
I think the difference with the leap of faith is that nothing is specifically stated about the science of it. Daniel dives into water, and we can't be sure of the scale of Desmond's jump at Monterrigioni. Some things can take artistic liberty for dramatic effect, so I can believe that jumps weren't as high as they appear to be. If something happens and is inplausible but they don't get into details, I am more willing to accept it. Why are there perches on a bunch of high buildings? Did Assassins put them there? Did they also put the haystacks right under them then? Did they modify them somehow? Who knows. My problem is when specific mentions are wrong.

Even if this is never justified and it just goes ahead as an inconsistency, it won't negatively affect my perception of the series. I will just see it as an inconsistency (which most collaborative works have) and nothing more. I just think this is something worth talking about.


It's a interesting theory but the concept of genetic memories, while based on actual real world theory, is fiction, so they can do whatever they want with it.

I have no problem with a suspension of disbelief for the sake of a story. That's why I accept TWCB, and that's how I can enjoy other fantasy and scifi stories. That being said, I have a problem (or can acknowledge a problem) when specific details are wrong.

ze_topazio
01-24-2014, 08:23 PM
...Why are there perches on a bunch of high buildings? Did Assassins put them there? Did they also put the haystacks right under them then? Did they modify them somehow? Who knows...

I could imagine a department of the Assassin order dedicated to prepare the cities for the action type Assassins.

BATISTABUS
01-24-2014, 08:28 PM
I could imagine a department of the Assassin order dedicated to prepare the cities for the action type Assassins.
Right. So then we shouldn't believe that the placement of haystacks DIRECTLY UNDER the perches is coincidental then. That means they were placed strategically by Assassins, and are not just leaves slept up by ignorant citizens. If this is the case, then perhaps they contain something to break an Assassin's fall. Although the game renders haystacks as all being relatively the same size, maybe in history sizes were proportional to the fall.

Shahkulu101
01-24-2014, 08:34 PM
Right. So then we shouldn't believe that the placement of haystacks DIRECTLY UNDER the perches is coincidental then. That means they were placed strategically by Assassins, and are not just leaves slept up by ignorant citizens. If this is the case, then perhaps they contain something to break an Assassin's fall. Although the game renders haystacks as all being relatively the same size, maybe in history sizes were proportional to the fall.

Inane speculation is inane speculation.

BATISTABUS
01-24-2014, 08:55 PM
Inane speculation is inane speculation.
What's inane about it? There's a difference between speculating as to why something is possible as opposed to being told something is possible because of something you know is false.

You guys are all missing the point. If you don't think things like this are of any consequence, then why are you commenting? Nobody is saying that they plan on abandoning the series because of this. Nobody is saying they think the Animus is stupid because of this. It's just a point of discussion. If you're not interested in that, why bother posting here?

guardian_titan
01-24-2014, 09:14 PM
My thought on the matter is rather simple:
If a person can pass their genetic memory to their offspring, that means they're recording their memories genetically their entire lives. So they may stop passing their memories to their descendant a few days prior to conception (case of a male anyway), but will still continue to record their memories in their DNA until the day they die. So, technically, what's the point to chasing after descendants when you can go after the skeleton of the person in question?

Why go after Desmond when Abstergo likely already had Altair (they had his apple so must have had him as well)? Why go after Desmond when Ezio was likely easy to find? Same with Haytham. Connor's a bit trickier as may be Aveline. Edward was burned, but a fire has to reach incredible temperatures to obliterate all of the bones. Even a cremation oven won't burn everything. Often fragments are left. Edward also died in December so it'd be cold and the fire likely only damaged the Kenway house. If it had been hotter, half of London would've burned which was not the case. So even Edward's DNA would still be accessible because, at most, the fire likely only charred his flesh and left most of his bones intact. Only spontaneous human combustion (if you believe it) has ever been hot enough to completely obliterate the human body ... aside from maybe a hand or leg. Burned bodies that are not cremated in an oven are often just charred so the bones are typically intact. At worst, DNA from his teeth would still be accessible. (I studied forensics for a while. I don't watch those questionable CSI, etc shows that are more about flair than realism.)

So just obtaining a small DNA fragment of a person would let them view the memories of someone regardless if they had children or not. Would allow viewing of not only those who died childless but also of those that chose to have children young.

Only reason for chasing after someone like Desmond would be to do the initial pinpointing of an ancestor. After that, it'd just be easier to go get a bone or tooth sample from the ancestor to view their entire memory rather than face a road block due to the conception barrier.

Women are born with all of their eggs, but the eggs take time to ripen and release. That could be the excuse Ubisoft could use to explain Aveline and other female assassins. I.E. The DNA of the mother is not actually fully imparted to the egg until it's released. Before then, it's just being held in a stasis and effectively blank aside from the mitochondrial DNA at the core. (Not what really occurs, but this is a game.) Since Aveline's memories are apparently viewable via the same tech as Altair's, etc, Ubisoft doesn't seem to really care about realism when it comes to conception. The fact that they can claim a blonde Haytham became black haired as an adult when that's not genetically possible (Brown, yes. Black? No) suggests that they just don't care. There's also how quickly you can move across the map. Quite often, you can travel between places inside minutes in the game, but once you look up the real distances, you realize it might take days or even weeks, especially when you realize people only went maybe 30-45 miles a day in those days. A 300 mile trip today might be an afternoon for us but was a good 10 days back then. In the game? It's maybe 5 minutes ... and that's if the horse gets caught on rocks as we go forcing us to backtrack or dismount. Then injuries are often downplayed. A shot to a location like the shoulder or stomach can be fatal if no medical attention is received, and yet people have survived those without medical care in the series.

Often gameplay trumps reality. Quite often, genetics are often left in the realm of fantasy rather than being corralled by realism. Genetics look more complicated than they are. They're not that bad to figure out the basics of, and yet people often are mystified by it. When it comes down to it, it's Ubisoft's lore. Ultimately, all we can do is work with what's given, whether or not it makes sense. As my friend put it: it's often the part of the fanfic writer to fill in the holes left by the author. We have a LOT of blanks to fill in. There's certainly nothing stopping Ubisoft from doing a childless assassin or another female one. The question ultimately is: is there a market for it? If there's a market for them, Ubisoft will figure out how to do them. If Aveline performs well now that her game has been released on more platforms, it's very likely another woman will soon join her.

silvermercy
01-24-2014, 09:16 PM
Mitochondria. They always pass from mother to children. There are mutations along the ancestral line. Maybe they could connect it to that.

I actually just started working with mitochondria in my lab. lol

Mitochondrial Eve is an interesting concept: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve

SixKeys
01-24-2014, 09:23 PM
Regarding the haystacks: I believe it's part of the canon that at least some of them weren't "really" there, they were placed in the Animus simulation by Lucy or Rebecca to make it easier for Desmond to synch with his ancestor. This explains why some of them are in absolutely ridiculous places, like on top of Galata Tower.

There's a certain level of willing suspension of disbelief I'm willing to go to. The science behind the Animus is about as airtight as Doctor Who or X-Men, i.e. not very. It's actually better for the lore if they keep it at the level it currently is and don't try to get deeper into it. The more detailed the explanation, the easier it will be to poke holes in it.

With that said, considering the very concept of reliving ancestral memories through DNA is shaky at best, I see no reason why it should be used as a valid excuse to exclude half the human race. If the science of the series had said right from the start "only white people are able to relive ancestral memories because of XYZ nonsense reason, therefore we can never have a black protagonist", people would immediately have cried foul. If the concept is nonsense to begin with, don't go making it racist too unless you want to turn away potential customers. Same goes for female protagonists.

Landruner
01-24-2014, 09:43 PM
Wait Wait Wait - Something is wrong there - Question to the Forum Moderator? That is the second thread that is re-open or sort of.

Why some threads like this one had been closed yesterday and we BTW got comments from the moderator for posting on it and i WAS BAD (I know), and why some threads that have been closed by the moderator? - No offense to the OP of that re-opened thread but Why the rules apply to some and not to some others?

adventurewomen
01-24-2014, 09:46 PM
As far as I know genetic memory in forms can be passed on to females.


Mitochondria. They always pass from mother to children. There are mutations along the ancestral line. Maybe they could connect it to that.

I actually just started working with mitochondria in my lab. lol

Mitochondrial Eve is an interesting concept: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve
Listen to Sliver, she's a scientist! :)

BATISTABUS
01-24-2014, 10:01 PM
My thought on the matter is rather simple:

Good stuff. Why do you need the descendant? Synchronization perhaps. Before the Cloud, finding a subject that could safely synchronize with their ancestors efficiently was relatively difficult. Perhaps memory recovery requires a certain level of preservation that a long-decaying corpse cannot sustain.


Mitochondria. They always pass from mother to children. There are mutations along the ancestral line. Maybe they could connect it to that. I actually just started working with mitochondria in my lab. lolMitochondrial Eve is an interesting concept: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve

Interesting. Maybe that would work.


With that said, considering the very concept of reliving ancestral memories through DNA is shaky at best, I see no reason why it should be used as a valid excuse to exclude half the human race. If the science of the series had said right from the start "only white people are able to relive ancestral memories because of XYZ nonsense reason, therefore we can never have a black protagonist", people would immediately have cried foul. If the concept is nonsense to begin with, don't go making it racist too unless you want to turn away potential customers. Same goes for female protagonists.

Nobody is saying that there should not be female protagonists, and nobody is saying that females can't relive the memories of their ancestors. Stop making this into something its not. I'm not saying it is not possible at all, I'm saying that given the information we currently, it should not be. If there is another factor (like potentially Mitochondria), then I am asking for discussion about it. Regardless, since when did Abstergo care about being inclusive?

Bozosaurus76
01-24-2014, 10:05 PM
Thank you to the OP for understanding that my post came from a largely scientific perspective in which the goal was to discuss the scientific merits of genetic memories/the Animus in both the AC universe and reality. Personally, one of greatest things about this series is that the first few games made you critically think and analyze about the whole science of it all and connecting the past with the future. Although I find AC3 and AC4 to be awesome games that advance the overall story-arch in their own ways, it is very unfortunate that the series seems to have been "dumbed down" a bit.

Very obviously, yes we are talking about a video game. Things happen in video games that are simply not possible in reality, however many of these occurrences happen inside the Animus thus providing a logical excuse. Those who attempt to dismiss the point by claiming that the TWCB plotline is "magic" are wrong. Juno, Minerva, etc clearly state that they are not gods, and if one does a bit of exploring in the Grand Temple in AC3 Juno talks about how TWCB had plans to save the world using extremely advanced scientific means. As far as being able to travel 300 miles in 5 minutes or performing a leap of faith, perhaps this is a way for Abstergo/Animus to "fast forward" through the uneventful parts of our memories in order to reach the "important" parts more quickly. Maybe not everything we observe in the Animus is meant to be taken from a literal perspective.

Also, I find it very unfortunate that some posters have the belief that I am trying to "exclude half the human race." I did not say that we should never follow through the memories of a female assassin or that a female assassin wouldn't be worth our time. I just pointed out a minor problem that would arise if the Animus was used in this situation. However I did mention that Altair's memory disks or, per the OP's suggestion, blood vials would be an excellent way to render this biological facet naught.

As to the individual who mentioned mitochondria, yes you are correct in that we receive 100% of our mitochondria from our mother, however these mitochondria are located in the egg which has already been created by the time a female is born/reaches maturity.

I would like to add that some recent studies suggest that my whole point is wrong, rendering this thread useless, however these studies are far and away from completely reversing the currently accepted viewpoint in developmental biology and genetics.

I know that many of you play this franchise for the action and scenery and don't care much for delving into the scientific mumbo jumbo. That is perfectly okay, however unappreciated when you comment on a thread with no intentions of providing anything productive or useful to the topic at hand.

I would like to close by thanking those who understand where I am coming from and I welcome anyone who would like to refute the point brought forward by the OP in a CONSTRUCTIVE manner.

Bozosaurus76
01-24-2014, 10:07 PM
Six keys, I would like to reiterate this one last time... We could definitely have a modern day female protagonist. It's just that she shouldn't be able to access any female ancestors' memories. Only her male ancestors. Same would go for a modern day male.

Landruner
01-24-2014, 10:51 PM
So, scientifically speaking "Ubioscience" was wrong from the beginning, Assassin should stay with Male character forever?

silvermercy
01-24-2014, 10:59 PM
As to the individual who mentioned mitochondria, yes you are correct in that we receive 100% of our mitochondria from our mother, however these mitochondria are located in the egg which has already been created by the time a female is born/reaches maturity.
Indeed. There may be a way around it with mitochondrial epigenetics. There are also various nuclear genes that regulate mitochondria and vice versa. (Mitochondria are actually small, just about 37 genes or so if I remember correctly).

Landruner
01-24-2014, 11:23 PM
Indeed. There may be a way around it with mitochondrial epigenetics. There are also various nuclear genes that regulate mitochondria and vice versa. (Mitochondria are actually small, just about 37 genes or so if I remember correctly).

Eh Silver? Here we are again, isn't? This time they come with scientific proves...LOL

silvermercy
01-24-2014, 11:25 PM
Eh Silver? Here we are again, isn't? This time they come with scientific proves...LOL
lol haha!

BATISTABUS
01-25-2014, 12:05 AM
So, scientifically speaking "Ubioscience" was wrong from the beginning, Assassin should stay with Male character forever?
For the third time, that's not what's being said at all.

Landruner
01-25-2014, 01:02 AM
For the third time, that's not what's being said at all.

You have re-open a thread that had been closed by the forum moderator and he clearly gave his reasons of closing it on this previous thread last night , and he clearly saw the new polemic the topic was bringing last night and anticipated that some girls will or some supporters will post there and get they will get trolled around again like the previous thread of this type - now since the rules are broken I don't any longer care, I just do not any longer understand the motivation of this forum and not even the orientation of this Franchise - neither. I just understand that it is okay to re-open thrreead that had been close by some moderator that probably forgot why he closed it in the first place.
Do whatever you want, but I just would like to add that you have a real scientist and biologist that took part of this thread that you have re-open today and this is a person that could actually talk about the topic, Alas guess what? she is already trolled around because.... she is a girl (what a surprise?) - That all I have to say - That thread you have re-opened is already turning into a festival of trolling between gender again and for nothing.

Closed thread bellow opened by Bozosaurus76 and obviously closed for nothing
http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/826398-Female-protagonist-would-undermine-concept-of-quot-Genetic-Memory-quot/page2

Landruner
01-25-2014, 01:24 AM
As far as I know genetic memory in forms can be passed on to females.


Listen to Sliver, she's a scientist! :)

Eh girls, you should not even post there - That threat had been re-open in order to insult females in general and your male supporters appear as whiny *****s - As far as I know Silver is the only one who could have open a thread like this and no one gives a damned though about what she can bring to the topic because guess what - She is a girl, so she can write and comes with scientific proves she will be trolled around again - She is a girl for god sake, oh could she even dare post there and how she could even dare play video game in the first place? Everybody knows (especially males) that AC is not for girls.
Those topics are just disguised BS for misogynistic that is all.

Like the new OP of this already closed thread said if you disagree with them pass your way, what we all should do and let the male trolls have fun.

marcbryan
01-25-2014, 01:51 AM
All science aside a female would undermine the series because they aren't as strong as men.

Landruner
01-25-2014, 02:04 AM
All science aside a female would undermine the series because they aren't as strong as men.

Amen!

silvermercy
01-25-2014, 02:08 AM
We make great sandwiches though. :p

BATISTABUS
01-25-2014, 02:09 AM
People like you are the reason we can't talk about difficult subjects here. Silver was actually CONTRIBUTING to the topic, unlike yourself. It is clear that English is not your primary language, so perhaps you are misunderstanding what is being said. There is ZERO masogeny taking place here. We are simply speculating about how this type of thing could be scientifically plausible using the Animus. Nobody is trolling anyone. Nobody thinks females should not be protagonists. Since when is this only a topic that girls can contribute to? Are females really that fragile in your mind that they cannot handle what males have to say about their biology? Is adventurewomen the only person that can analyze Connor since she's Mohawk? Stop being ridiculous.

This is the last response I'll give you.

dbzk1999
01-25-2014, 02:22 AM
Eh girls, you should not even post there - That threat had been re-open in order to insult females in general and your male supporters appear as whiny *****s - As far as I know Silver is the only one who could have open a thread like this and no one gives a damned though about what she can bring to the topic because guess what - She is a girl, so she can write and comes with scientific proves she will be trolled around again - She is a girl for god sake, oh could she even dare post there and how she could even dare play video game in the first place? Everybody knows (especially males) that AC is not for girls.
Those topics are just disguised BS for misogynistic that is all.

Like the new OP of this already closed thread said if you disagree with them pass your way, what we all should do and let the male trolls have fun.

Really are u freaking kidding me there was no way he was trolling
It's not like he's saying girls r weak can't fight blah blah blah
I mean what are u trying to do start something

dbzk1999
01-25-2014, 02:42 AM
Okay so what is the point there doudou? - I believe that you post over the nape was addressed to me and I don't get it because I am french?
I believe I understood the topic good enough for writing that is like pissing onto a violin in thinking making music -
I just think that it is hopeless to try to set up some realistic scientific and biological facts for a piece of fantasy such as Assassin Creed (I gave my reason on the other thread that had been closed (Linked above) and i won't write it for you since i know that you care less about what i think or write) .

I am not saying that the topic is interesting and not saying that it should discussed, however; I am just regretting that you re-open a thread that was closed by the moderator because he himself gave the reason that it was re-opening some conflict again. and some other threads of the same type were around.
No I am not trying to play the Zorro for pleased our ladies around, I am just concerned and for cause (See the trolling above...Joke or not...Here we are again) and that we come back on some debate for something that already on on some other threads.
Yes I understand why u feel that way but just because it's been reopened doesn't mean bad blood will boil

Bozosaurus76
01-25-2014, 03:48 AM
I believe that Ubisoft was deliberately trying to make their AC franchise as realistic as possible with the first few iterations of their games. Personally, as I have stated before, one of the major reasons that endeared me to this franchise was the sincere approach of disconnecting from reality/plausibility as little as possible. I understand that the concept of genetic memories is pseudoscience, however that does not mean that Ubisoft will try to disconnect us from reality as much as possible, nor should they.

Landrunner, I don't really know why you posted that movie link, but if you are attempting to make a connection to the thread topic and phrenology then you are off-base. Phrenology is basically the study of skull/brain sizes and how they correlate with intelligence. This field was dismissed as pseudo-science for quite obvious reasons (humans don't have the biggest brains on Earth yet we certainly are the smartest beings). This thread, however, is based on biological fact and how said fact could affect the AC series (whether or not Ubisoft actually tackles this point is irrelevant in the overall story-arch).

Bookeworm
01-25-2014, 04:19 AM
Alright, focusing on the fact that gametes are present from birth is a slightly limited view of female genetic determination. The primary oocytes, or germ cells, are indeed present at birth; however, every month after puberty, a primary oocyte cell divides twice and thus produces a a mature egg cell (as well as three polar bodies, for those keeping count, which are vestigially discarded). So some degree of genetic change does happen in egg cells each month of a mature female's reproductive cycle. When combined with the AC mythology surrounding non-coded genetic sequences containing memories, this would enable a descendant to experience genetic memories of a female ancestor up until the beginning of her ovulation during the month of her child's conception.

In addition, if you want another form of matrilineal genetic transmission, growth in the womb is not an isolated development. While the mother does not share blood with her child (which would be pointless to this discussion anyway, as red blood cells do not contain DNA) she does share antibodies, containing the same sequenced amino acids as the mother.

So yeah, there's a possible explanation if you want to go way too into it :-)

BATISTABUS
01-25-2014, 05:15 AM
I do. Awesome, thanks for that :)

Black_Widow9
01-25-2014, 05:17 AM
As Mr_Shade stated in the last thread:


This subject has been discussed before - I suggest you have a look and read the threads - and then consider your facts and re-write the thread, without the veiled insults..

If you are posting make sure you leave the insults out of it and then it will remain open.
Thanks

BATISTABUS
01-25-2014, 05:55 AM
As Mr_Shade stated in the last thread:


If you are posting make sure you leave the insults out of it and then it will remain open.
Thanks
Thanks, I really appreciate it!

killzab
01-25-2014, 10:53 AM
So this thread gets to live and all the others don't ? Right ! RIIIIIIIIIIIIIGHT !

Locopells
01-25-2014, 11:48 AM
As long as we keep it civil...

Mr_Shade
01-25-2014, 06:40 PM
Which is asking something - considering some of the posts that had to be removed..

Fingers crossed, one ban was enough..


We don't mind you guys having debates such as this - but when it starts attracting the kind of people who can't remain civil - the threads get derailed and abuse starts getting slung about..


Remember, don't try to offend other members and it's a public forum - so try and remember that ;)

MnemonicSyntax
01-25-2014, 06:43 PM
I think it's more interesting to discuss how the velocity of gravity in the AC series is more along the lines of 20 something point something meters per second squared while in the real world it's only 9.8 meters per second squared.

Hans684
01-25-2014, 09:39 PM
I think it's more interesting to discuss how the velocity of gravity in the AC series is more along the lines of 20 something point something meters per second squared while in the real world it's only 9.8 meters per second squared.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EUOMDODEBk0

This video sums it up...kinda.

SixKeys
01-25-2014, 11:02 PM
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EUOMDODEBk0

This video sums ut up...kinda.

I wish I could "like" this post.

MnemonicSyntax
01-26-2014, 08:08 AM
Aye, this was the video I was referring to in my post. However, I couldn't copy the link over as I was originally posting from my phone, so thanks for posting it for me!

I like that guy's video, but his voice grates on my nerves.

ghostferret
01-26-2014, 10:05 AM
I'm glad this thread survived. One of the awesome things about the AC series is that it's inspires people to delve into not only history, but science. This thread is an example of that. Trolls show up everywhere. Moderators have to make decisions to protect folks who can't ignore them. It's nice to see a civil discussion on the forum.

I contributed to the previous thread just before it closed. I'll add a couple of things here, because there seems to be interest..

I think the way to ask the question isn't whether some things in AC are implausible. Plausibility in science fiction is almost always in the mind of the beholder. But we can ask what is required to make everything fit some logical scheme. For ancestral DNA memory, we already know that more than cell division leading to gamete formation is required. Why? Because "science tells us" that Altair's sperm were formed before his meeting with Maria on the tower in AC 2, and yet Desmond remembered it.

We know that DNA memory is passed through females as well as males because Ezio wasn't a descendant of Altair. That, too, is canon. Desmond got his Altair memories from a different lineage than his Ezio memories. At least one mom was involved. That eliminates the Y chromosome as a candidate for transmission.

The mitochondria are already out as a theory because we know there's male transmission.

What does this leave us? For me, it's some sort of biochemical hoodoo that encodes memories being processed in the brain into DNA in cells in the ******, and in the blood (as the First Civilization and Abstergo figured out), and so probably everywhere else in the body where cells have nuclei. One thing we know about this memory-recording process is that is that it ends when cells leave the body of the person who's having the experiences, because Desmond left Altair's memories after you-know-what and found himself in Maria's womb.

There is no scientifically plausible mechanism for this, but I'm cool with it, because AC is sticking to its own sci-fi logic. FWIW, I'm a PhD geneticist who's taught at the university, graduate, and postdoctoral level. I also write science fiction. Oh, and I'm female. Pay no mind to the trolls, ladies.

silvermercy
01-26-2014, 11:41 AM
There is no scientifically plausible mechanism for this, but I'm cool with it, because AC is sticking to its own sci-fi logic. FWIW, I'm a PhD geneticist who's taught at the university, graduate, and postdoctoral level. I also write science fiction. Oh, and I'm female. Pay no mind to the trolls, ladies.

yay! I fellow female PhD scientist! :D

I'm not a geneticist (molecular biologist more like) but I'd love to have a discussion some day (maybe about mitochondria as I've just started working with them). lol
I had gene therapy for a Masters project once but now I'm more into switching cell fate and cellular reprogramming. I wonder if what I do would apply to AC lore in any way. haha!
Oh I also write sci-fi!

Interesting theories!! The brain/blood one makes a lot of sense.

Dev_Anj
01-26-2014, 12:13 PM
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EUOMDODEBk0

This video sums it up...kinda.

That was an interesting video. I checked his channel, and he has some more good videos. However, he sounds a bit overenergetic, and his jokes could be improved upon as they feel vulgar sometimes.

Shahkulu101
01-26-2014, 12:17 PM
All you academics make me feel so very inferior. I blame it on my lazy genes.

Hans684
01-26-2014, 05:14 PM
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jzPj3xjM0Vo

And this video talks about genetic memorie in way.

Ureh
01-26-2014, 10:50 PM
Templars/Assassins should be concerned about the bleeding effect... what if the gender of the animus user was opposite to the ancestor?!

LoyalACFan
01-26-2014, 10:56 PM
Templars/Assassins should be concerned about the bleeding effect... what if the gender of the animus user was opposite to the ancestor?!

I think the encyclopedia mentioned that sync issues happen when you relive someone's memories of the opposite gender. But then Desmond relived a little bit of Ziio's memories in AC3, so I dunno how that stands in the canon now.

Shahkulu101
01-26-2014, 11:11 PM
I think the encyclopedia mentioned that sync issues happen when you relive someone's memories of the opposite gender. But then Desmond relived a little bit of Ziio's memories in AC3, so I dunno how that stands in the canon now.

Desmond got pregnant and that's why he killed himself.