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View Full Version : Hello, Starshoy. Ian Boys Told Me TO Ask You...



XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 02:16 AM
I`ve posted this request TWICE to Oleg and Ian Boys popped up this morning to say it`s Starshoy`s (YOURS) job to do. Here is the idea. It`s quite simple and EVERYONE WOULD BENEFIT...

European Air War, CFS 3, Most other WWII Flight sims, what do they have in common? Can you guess?

If you bail in enemy areas your pilot has a chance to return to his frontlines.


Here is the detail so there`s no misunderstanding...

Process:
1. Player bails or crashlands in unfriendly territory.

1a. Do NOT have `player captured` leave blank.

2. Player presses Escape to quit and continue with Campaign (as well as Scripted server- where pilots count)

3. Program decides on 50\50 chance whether pilot made it back to base or was captured.

4, On Debrief (and\or scripted server) it says either `Player Captured MIA or Player Succesfully Returned to Home Base, perhaps missing a day or two (or even longer)for Campaign purposes.

Perhaps chance could even be made a little more complex, but the basics are fine for now.

It also makes more sense because you don`t see the Pilot instantly captured by invisible enemy or blades of grass, you simply get the debrief of it later.

Now Starshoy, I am of the impression that it would need you to talk Oleg as I think this would partly need a little 3D WORLD tie in to the DCG itself. Personally, I think Ian Boys is wrong that I should just see you. But is he? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Are you able to upgrade DCG so pilot`s have a chance to return home as above? If so let me know, I and others would be grateful. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


"Tis better to work towards an Impossible Good, rather than a Possible Evil."

SeaFireLIV.
(Spitfire & Escape Whiner Member).


"Tis better to work towards an Impossible Good, rather than a Possible Evil."

SeaFireLIV.
(Spitfire & Escape Whiner Member).

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 02:16 AM
I`ve posted this request TWICE to Oleg and Ian Boys popped up this morning to say it`s Starshoy`s (YOURS) job to do. Here is the idea. It`s quite simple and EVERYONE WOULD BENEFIT...

European Air War, CFS 3, Most other WWII Flight sims, what do they have in common? Can you guess?

If you bail in enemy areas your pilot has a chance to return to his frontlines.


Here is the detail so there`s no misunderstanding...

Process:
1. Player bails or crashlands in unfriendly territory.

1a. Do NOT have `player captured` leave blank.

2. Player presses Escape to quit and continue with Campaign (as well as Scripted server- where pilots count)

3. Program decides on 50\50 chance whether pilot made it back to base or was captured.

4, On Debrief (and\or scripted server) it says either `Player Captured MIA or Player Succesfully Returned to Home Base, perhaps missing a day or two (or even longer)for Campaign purposes.

Perhaps chance could even be made a little more complex, but the basics are fine for now.

It also makes more sense because you don`t see the Pilot instantly captured by invisible enemy or blades of grass, you simply get the debrief of it later.

Now Starshoy, I am of the impression that it would need you to talk Oleg as I think this would partly need a little 3D WORLD tie in to the DCG itself. Personally, I think Ian Boys is wrong that I should just see you. But is he? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Are you able to upgrade DCG so pilot`s have a chance to return home as above? If so let me know, I and others would be grateful. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


"Tis better to work towards an Impossible Good, rather than a Possible Evil."

SeaFireLIV.
(Spitfire & Escape Whiner Member).


"Tis better to work towards an Impossible Good, rather than a Possible Evil."

SeaFireLIV.
(Spitfire & Escape Whiner Member).

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 03:00 AM
Did 50 percent of real life pilots who bailed over enemy territory make it back over the lines? Seems kind of high to me but I could be wrong. I would think it would be around a 10 to 15 percent chance.

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 03:07 AM
50/50 chance, huh? You're pretty optimistic about a pilot's chance for escape from enemy territory, aren't you? Regardless, even a realistic chance would depend on many factors:

1. Distance from frontlines. The further the pilot bails from the front, the less are his chances of making back across the lines.

2. Current dynamic of the frontlines. A pilot that goes down behind a frontline that is advancing (increasing the chaos behind the lines and chances of future rescue, i.e. German pilots shot down during the invasion of France) has a greater chance than a pilot that goes down behind a static or retreating front.

3. Geography. If a pilot goes down on an enemy controlled island, or in a heavily populated area (take for example German pilots shot down over England or American pilots over Japan), then his chances for escape are close to nil.

4. Sympathetic population. A German pilot going down in Russian territory had about zero chance of receiving aid from civilians. On the other hand, British and American pilots going down in occupied France had a good chance of being helped by the populace.

So, either all these factors should be modelled to make it historical (which would be very time-consuming), or some arbitrary average chance based on all these factors averaged out would need to be used. I suspect it would be very low, like 1 in 100 or less. Is it really worth implementing?

--AKD

http://www.flyingpug.com/pugline2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 03:17 AM
I believe Starshoy has answered this one about a half-dozen times, though maybe he will have the patience to discuss it again (he is nearly as patient as Oleg, maybe even more so).

Personally its not a bit important to me, as I would estimate more like 1% of bailed out pilots (maybe less on the Eastern Front) were able to return to friendly forces (from 'behind' enemy forces). Not to mention it would be seemingly impossible due to Il-2 game-code constraints to build in a reasonably realistic representation; accounting for enemy/friendly force locations and distances to them.

Again, just my opinoin, no need to go nutters on me.

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 03:18 AM
I'm a big fan of this idea. There are cases where I crash landed practically a few yards from the front line and I've been captured. There should be a buffer zone around the front line in which there are some chance of escaping.

GATO_LOCO

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 03:25 AM
Although... in second thought, does it matter? Unless you land your plane back in your airbase, the mission is failed and it needs to be reflied. So what is the point?

GATO_LOCO

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 04:09 AM
For what its worth, you can flip a switch in the 'Dificulty' menu (not during a campaign of course, only at start) to allow all mission you survive to continue with campaign, regardless of mission outcome; it is called 'No Instant Success' I think, it should be switched 'Off' (2nd page, top right).

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 04:42 AM
Not reading further than the first message, if Ian Boys indeed said it, he is wrong.

The generator has no control over situation when you can continue campaign or not. It is decided by the FB itself.

My opinion on the situation is known to anybody who plays VEF. If you bail out over enemy lines, chances of your return depend on distance from the frontline.

But it was not possible to implement in 1.0 due to time constraints, and may be due to logic too, because the engine should work the same way in coops, etc.

Anyway, it is not something that I can change http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.



Message Edited on 09/23/0311:44PM by Starshoy

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 05:06 AM
I was happy to recognise the name of Ian Boys in this thread title. Ian Boys is a very dedicated enthusiast, with fine contributions to IL-2 and other games well to his credit.

I have enjoyed reading his articles and review work, and have played through his campaign mission constructions, such as RED NINE or RED FALCONS.

Any who are unfamiliar with his writing or missions and who seek out his work will not likely be dissapointed.

A respcetful salute by way of this post to Mr Boys from an appreciative

hans

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 09:14 AM
Thankyou for your response Starshoy. It is much appreciated, as I thought, it needs to really be seen by Oleg and initially implemented by he.


Gato_Loco, If you play the SIM with `NO INSTANT MISSION SUCCESS` OFF in Campaign, you can continue mission even if you fail it, all you need to do is survive. It`s more realistic. So on 2nd thoughts it IS worth it.

A.K.Davis, you have done two classic mistakes.
1: Not properly reading my post. Did I not write: "Perhaps chance could even be made a little more complex, but the basics are fine for now."

I wanted to keep it simple to save on too much work for Oleg, starshoy and crew.

2: Over analysis. You put in so much more into the escape process that you`ve already defeated the idea (in your mind). I would also ask if you have read up on the Eastern Front Escapes from enemy territories? I have and MANY TIMES pilots crashed or bailed to make it back to friendly lines.

Of course it`s worth it. A great sim like this? AND NOT ONE POSSIBILITY OF GETTING BACK TO FRIEND LINES? Every other flight sim does this, but not FB? Russia`s a vast landscape, you could walk for miles and meet nothing- as many pilots did. Come on, it`s simply illogical!

Now , I have another problem... I have to try and get this request back to Oleg. You know, this really should not be as hard as it is. It`s very strange. I`m trying to make the sim just a little better, but it seems a minority issue... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif




Message Edited on 09/24/03 08:37AM by SeaFireLIV

Message Edited on 09/24/0308:39AM by SeaFireLIV

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 10:18 AM
Online i don't think the computer should do the walk for you ( 50% or 10% chance to make it back), but if you want that ok, how about we make it like in acess high? If you bail or ditch in enemy teritory you can control the pilot to walk acros the front line, or you can end the flight and get the captured message. I play AH since 2001 and i never heard of a guy that wasted his time to walk home.Would you like to walk for few hours thinking at the rest of 400+ guys in the server having fun? I don't think so. Just imagine how long would take you to get home after one of those 1.5 hour buff missions to enemy HQ.

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 10:43 AM
Just do like I've done on multiple occasions. Make a ditch landing on the nearest road. Consult the map, and drive your plane back to base.
I've done it quite a few times when my engine was all shot up, and I could only go 30 maybe. When my controls were shot up and all I had was rudder.

Although it is quite a challenge landing a WWII fighter with nothing but rudder control.
Bailing was a pretty nasty event, and not as easy as the game makes it look. Not to mention everything that happens before a pilot bails.
By the time he hits the ground he's battered, bruised, and tired. Most simply didn't bail out over enemy territory and those who did at many points probably wished they hadn't bailed.
Every ground troop in the area can see, and hear the air battle. They can also see the big white parachute coming down. They would enjoy nothing more than capturing a fly boy.

So chances for escape are very slim. It's simple then clear your lines, or be captured, or simply don't bail.
I know it seems annoying when you bail just a few hundred yards from your lines, but really thats the worst place to bail. As it would have the highest concentration of enemy troops.

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 12:39 PM
Jaws2002 WROTE:



"Online i don't think the computer should do the walk for you ( 50% or 10% chance to make it back), but if you want that ok, how about we make it like in acess high? If you bail or ditch in enemy teritory you can control the pilot to walk acros the front line, or you can end the flight and get the captured message. I play AH since 2001 and i never heard of a guy that wasted his time to walk home.Would you like to walk for few hours thinking at the rest of 400+ guys in the server having fun? I don't think so. Just imagine how long would take you to get home after one of those 1.5 hour buff missions to enemy HQ.



This cracks me up! Does anyone actually read what I wrote?? I didn`t say anything about actually walking in the sim- that would be dumb. GO BACK to the start of this thread and read the step by step instructions I put down to avoid these silly misunderstandings! Sheesh!



Hopperfly22 wrote:
- Although it is quite a challenge landing a WWII
- fighter with nothing but rudder control.
- Bailing was a pretty nasty event, and not as easy as
- the game makes it look. Not to mention everything
- that happens before a pilot bails.
- By the time he hits the ground he's battered,
- bruised, and tired. Most simply didn't bail out
- over enemy territory and those who did at many
- points probably wished they hadn't bailed.
- Every ground troop in the area can see, and hear the
- air battle. They can also see the big white
- parachute coming down. They would enjoy nothing
- more than capturing a fly boy.
-

sigh...

Have you read any accounts? If you had you would have seen that pilots went through EXACTLY what you described and STILL made it back.

Well, I can`t answer every ill-thought response, but I answered these to try and explain that I`ve given this subject much thought and read many accounts. A lot of posts here seem to just `say` what they think rather than have any real idea..

Any, enough! I`m off to badger Oleg in ORR! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif (politely of course) And probably get banned!





Message Edited on 09/24/0311:45AM by SeaFireLIV

XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 12:42 PM
SeaFireLIV wrote:
- Any, enough! I`m off to badger Oleg in ORR! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif (politely of course) And
- probably get banned!
-

Don't get banned mate /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif and good luck with your 'request'.
I totally agree with you on this one.

S! Simon.
<center>

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Download the USAAF campaign folder here (http://www.downloadcounter.com/cgi-bin/download.pl?username=James_Jones&account=705).

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XyZspineZyX
09-24-2003, 12:47 PM
Thnx, Extreme_One, I think I`m gonna need it!

"Tis better to work towards an Impossible Good, rather than a Possible Evil."

SeaFireLIV.
(Spitfire & Escape Whiner Member).