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LieutenantRex
01-09-2014, 06:14 PM
Did anyone else notice that when Connor first introduced himself by his Mohawk name to Achilles in AC3, he said it the way it was spelled, not pronounced? Is it Mohawk culture to say your name differently from everyone else?
He literally says, "Rat-on-a-kay-don." May not be exactly that, but he doesn't say, "Radoonhagaydoon."

itsamea-mario
01-09-2014, 06:16 PM
How dare you pick out flaws in the best game ever, you should be sent to troll jail you troll!!!

LieutenantRex
01-09-2014, 06:19 PM
How dare you pick out flaws in the best game ever, you should be sent to troll jail you troll!!!

Are you mocking adventurewomen and silver-mercy and other fans of the game? I wasn't trying to bash it, I liked AC3, I just found something in it peculiar.

pirate1802
01-09-2014, 06:19 PM
^I second this man. How dare you!!

ze_topazio
01-09-2014, 07:33 PM
You are reading too much into it, whatever way he introduced himself the point was that Achilles couldn't memorize such name to save his life, which i understand because I'm in the same boat, i have been reading/watching manga/anime for years yet i still can't memorize most characters names much less spelling them.

UncappedWheel82
01-09-2014, 07:44 PM
I don't think that is that big of a deal. I pronounce my last name differently than my dad and my brother.

TheDanteEX
01-09-2014, 07:56 PM
Aren't their names supposed to be unique to the individual? I don't think its the pronunciation that's the important part. Maybe the language works differently than English. As long as you can communicate with a language, it's efficient.

guardian_titan
01-09-2014, 08:20 PM
Noah Watts (Connor's VA) isn't a Mohawk himself and learned the language phonetically. Think the guy's really a Blackfoot. Not a Mohawk at any rate. So you can give him some respect for speaking the language as well as he did. There's often variations of words within the series even from the same VA. Listen to Nassau in AC4. Some say Nasso, some say Nassa. The speed someone says something and who someone is talking to can often change how you say something. Watch people talk formally versus informally. You won't use some words like ain't in a formal situation. Edward's mannerisms and speech change subtlety between when he's talking to Blackbeard and when he's pretending to be Duncan Walpole. Connor also speaks a bit differently to the Davenport residents than he does to Washington ... although you're better of ignoring animations in that case. Davenport scenes often used rather simple animations that made the scene rather dull. Certainly could've changed the mood of those scenes drastically if there was more movement in their bodies and faces rather than just standing and chatting.

Another tidbit for you, Noah intentionally had Connor not use contractions to elude to English being his second language. Yet there's 3 instances where Connor appears to use them: twice in AC3 and once in ToKW. Except one of the two times Connor uses a contraction in AC3, it's just in the subtitle. Noah didn't say the contraction itself. Later on, he does say a contraction and does so again in ToKW. Don't recall exactly when they were. I just remember they were late in the game. Since it's late in the game, you can take it as Connor slowly becoming more Europeanized and walking further away from his people. Nice touch on Noah's part. Also found it interesting Connor never said any religious references in AC3 outside of a minor chat with Father Timothy regarding him attending a service one day yet in ToKW, he says, "God dammit Putnam" or something to that effect. Rather strange line for a man who didn't practice a European religion. :confused:

And yeah, Mohawk names are apparently unique to each person. Ubisoft didn't copyright Ratonhnhaké:ton because of a request by the Mohawks. Although Ziio and her VA both share their name. :p Guess either they couldn't come up with another name for Ziio or the names aren't so unique.

SixKeys
01-09-2014, 08:43 PM
The way he pronounces it is more like Rat-on-HANG-get-on. Which really bugs me. I think there's another instance in the game where he says his name completely differently. :p It's not Noah's fault for not being Mohawk, of course, but the director or language consultant should have corrected him when recording his lines.

LoyalACFan
01-09-2014, 09:35 PM
The way he pronounces it is more like Rat-on-HANG-get-on. Which really bugs me. I think there's another instance in the game where he says his name completely differently. :p It's not Noah's fault for not being Mohawk, of course, but the director or language consultant should have corrected him when recording his lines.

This is what I was going to say. He introduces himself to Achilles and Duncan in two different ways. I dunno how the language consultant slipped up so much on this, because the Clan Mother pronounces it a third way. It's not really a big deal, but it did leave me wondering how the hell you actually pronounce it. I imagine the Clan Mother's pronunciation is closest, because Kanento:kon (who was voiced by the consultant, I believe) says it similarly.

dbzk1999
01-09-2014, 09:38 PM
This is what I was going to say. He introduces himself to Achilles and Duncan in two different ways. I dunno how the language consultant slipped up so much on this, because the Clan Mother pronounces it a third way. It's not really a big deal, but it did leave me wondering how the hell you actually pronounce it. I imagine the Clan Mother's pronunciation is closest, because Kanento:kon (who was voiced by the consultant, I believe) says it similarly.

There be different ways to pronounce a name like tomato people say it differently

BigredInfinity
01-09-2014, 09:38 PM
His name is Ratonhnhaké:ton damnit. type it correct or not at all.
The way he pronounces it is more like Rat-on-HANG-get-on. Which really bugs me. I think there's another instance in the game where he says his name completely differently. :p It's not Noah's fault for not being Mohawk, of course, but the director or language consultant should have corrected him when recording his lines.

Shahkulu101
01-09-2014, 09:45 PM
Kind of (completely) off-topic but I really liked Kanento:kon's character. I just wished we'd seem more of him between William Johnson's killing and his death - the interactive conversations helped fill the gap but weren't enough really - I wish the story focused a little more on Connor's Native American roots in general. ToKW did this in the first episode but hey whaddya know they killed off his Native American brothers, The Clan Mother and poor Kaneto:kon, again... :(

LoyalACFan
01-09-2014, 09:58 PM
There be different ways to pronounce a name like tomato people say it differently

First of all, I have never in my life heard anyone, in person or in the media, pronounce tomato any other way than "toe-may-toe."

But no, you can't just wave away the fact that Connor pronounces his name two very different ways, both of which are different from the way his kin pronounce it, as "multiple ways to pronounce a name." My name is Matthew, but I don't call myself "mat-hew" and "math-hoo" while my relatives call me "math-you." Somebody goofed while recording that dialogue, simple as that.

Shahkulu101
01-09-2014, 10:16 PM
First of all, I have never in my life heard anyone, in person or in the media, pronounce tomato any other way than "toe-may-toe."

But no, you can't just wave away the fact that Connor pronounces his name two very different ways, both of which are different from the way his kin pronounce it, as "multiple ways to pronounce a name." My name is Matthew, but I don't call myself "mat-hew" and "math-hoo" while my relatives call me "math-you." Somebody goofed while recording that dialogue, simple as that.

Pretty much all British people pronounce it "to-ma-toe". :p Some Scottish people even say "ti-matas" depending on the region - I do myself.

LoyalACFan
01-09-2014, 10:36 PM
Pretty much all British people pronounce it "to-ma-toe". :p Some Scottish people even say "ti-matas" depending on the region - I do myself.

Well, consider my horizons broadened ;) Weird though, because I know this gardener guy who moved to the US from London, and he pronounces it "toe-may-toes." He still has a pretty thick British accent too. Maybe he just switched over to "toe-may-toe" so us Yanks would know what he was selling :p

SixKeys
01-09-2014, 11:36 PM
His name is Ratonhnhaké:ton damnit. type it correct or not at all.

I said that's the way the actor pronounces it in that scene, not the way it's actually spelled.

adventurewomen
01-10-2014, 12:20 AM
The way Noah pronounced Ratonhnhaké:ton when he met Achilles is just a variant way of saying the name, the name isn't pronounced wrongly in that scene.

LoyalACFan
01-10-2014, 12:53 AM
The way Noah pronounced Ratonhnhaké:ton when he met Achilles is just a varlet way of saying the name, the name isn't pronounced wrongly in that scene.

What about the one with Duncan?

MasterAssasin84
01-10-2014, 01:51 AM
Did anyone else notice that when Connor first introduced himself by his Mohawk name to Achilles in AC3, he said it the way it was spelled, not pronounced? Is it Mohawk culture to say your name differently from everyone else?
He literally says, "Rat-on-a-kay-don." May not be exactly that, but he doesn't say, "Radoonhagaydoon."


I am a huge fan of AC3 but i have to say i did notice the way Connor pronounced it was different to how the Clan mother pronounced it !! amazing how much detail you pick up when you love a game !!

guardian_titan
01-10-2014, 03:28 AM
Dialogue is often recorded individually. For a game with thousands of lines (and Connor being a central character), the recording likely took place over several months with several instances of lines being re-recorded for one reason or another. Motion capture would be the only time they'd be together with other actors, and even those can be done without the VA since they can use a stand-in for select people when needed. During motion capture work, they're mostly focusing on their movements and not so much the lines. They say the lines enough for the facial movements, but the dialogue recorded there is often replaced by dialogue recorded earlier (or later if it needed to be tweaked). How Ratonhnhaké:ton is pronounced throughout the game can be chalked up to multiple recording sessions over several months. It's an oversight, but to err is human. We all make mistakes. When you have several other VAs coming in to record their lines in one day and you have to keep to a schedule as well as having a million various things to do, it's easy to overlook a few things. Honestly, how long has AC3 been out and how long has it taken people to notice the variations in the pronunciation? There are larger things to complain about. The name is pronounced similarly enough for people to not pick up on it unless you really pay attention.

If Ubisoft nitpicked over every little detail, we'd never see a game because they'd constantly be tweaking something. I've been fiddling with some mock up screens for another game I play since the week before Christmas. Next game's coming out and me and another guy are in a mock up war. :p I've done like 10 versions of one screen with subtle changes because I found a typo, something was too far left/right/up/down, the color was wrong, I wanted to add something, etc. There's a point where you have to stop nitpicking and put it out there or else you'll never get anything done.

And if Adventurewoman says the way Ratonhnhaké:ton is pronounced by Noah is right, I'd believe her. She'd certainly know better than the rest of us.

If you really want variations in pronunciations, listen to a New Yorker chat with guys from Alabama, London, Dublin, and Edinburgh. Somehow, I don't think anything would be pronounced the same in that situation despite all of them talking in English. Toss in a guy from Sydney, too. Wouldn't really focus too much on how something's pronounced because there's ALWAYS going to be some culture that will pronounce it differently and it's accepted that way there. It's a big world. No sense focusing on the small stuff. We're all human. Focus on the bigger picture, not the tiny details that get lost in the sea of humanity.

adventurewomen
01-10-2014, 04:21 AM
What about the one with Duncan?
Even in that scene, the way Ratonhnhaké:ton was pronounced there is another variant, nothing too much to be concerned with.


...And if Adventurewoman says the way Ratonhnhaké:ton is pronounced by Noah is right, I'd believe her. She'd certainly know better than the rest of us....
Thank you. :)

I also agree with what you said, in your post.

SixKeys
01-10-2014, 05:27 AM
If you really want variations in pronunciations, listen to a New Yorker chat with guys from Alabama, London, Dublin, and Edinburgh. Somehow, I don't think anything would be pronounced the same in that situation despite all of them talking in English. Toss in a guy from Sydney, too. Wouldn't really focus too much on how something's pronounced because there's ALWAYS going to be some culture that will pronounce it differently and it's accepted that way there. It's a big world. No sense focusing on the small stuff. We're all human. Focus on the bigger picture, not the tiny details that get lost in the sea of humanity.

There's a difference between everyday words being pronounced differently in different dialects and then there's pronouncing your own name differently. Twice.

Even if there are variations on the pronunciations of Mohawk names, they should have kept it consistent in the story to avoid confusion.

Fatal-Feit
01-10-2014, 10:13 AM
There's a difference between everyday words being pronounced differently in different dialects and then there's pronouncing your own name differently. Twice.

Even if there are variations on the pronunciations of Mohawk names, they should have kept it consistent in the story to avoid confusion.

But there wasn't any confusion. People are just being nitpicky. :o

DinoSteve1
01-10-2014, 10:18 AM
Poor Conor can't even talk properly.

pirate1802
01-10-2014, 10:26 AM
Poor Conor can't even talk properly.

lawl

Mr_Shade
01-10-2014, 01:14 PM
Well, consider my horizons broadened ;) Weird though, because I know this gardener guy who moved to the US from London, and he pronounces it "toe-may-toes." He still has a pretty thick British accent too. Maybe he just switched over to "toe-may-toe" so us Yanks would know what he was selling :p
Well here, we say 'Ta mart - toes' ;)

just to add to the confusion.. lol


anyway.. back on topic..

pirate1802
01-10-2014, 02:05 PM
First of all, I have never in my life heard anyone, in person or in the media, pronounce tomato any other way than "toe-may-toe."

My mum pronounces it as toe-maa-toes. And I've heard some people prnounce it as tu-maa-tus. lol

DinoSteve1
01-10-2014, 02:09 PM
pa-tate-toes


boil em mash em stick em in a stew

pacmanate
01-10-2014, 04:55 PM
Even Noah can't say Connors native name consistantly. Everyone calls him something different, it really bugged me actually

guardian_titan
01-10-2014, 07:06 PM
Miss the part about how I said people talk differently in different situations in my first post? Every time Ratonhnhaké:ton is said differently, it's to a different person. You're not going to talk the same way to your best friend as you do to your parents or grandparents or to the President of the US or the Queen of England. Some people might emphasis a particular sound when talking to one person than when they're talking to another. Others might swap out words. Like friends might use street talk on a regular basis among each other, but then they change to talking to their parents, teacher, or boss and suddenly they remove most (or all) of the street talk for favor of more formal language. When you talk to someone, you want to be understood. Speed and sounds vary depending on the situation. Listen to yourself and to others around you. Watch how their manners change depending if they're among relatives or talking to their boss or teacher. Also listen to how fast they're talking. Pay attention to their emotions as well.

You can also chalk up the difference to it being several years since Connor spoke his own name as far as we're aware. Plop someone down in a foreign environment where their language isn't spoken at all, it's only a matter of time before you start to adopt that culture's ways. Some might adopt the new culture inside a year. Others might take a decade or more. Only way to combat it is to live in your own social group (hence pockets of cultures like China Town, German Town, etc in large cities). Ratonhnhaké:ton was about 13-14 when he left his village, not in his 30s. He ultimately spends more time among the colonials than he does his own people. He'd have an excuse to start to fumble even with his own native language. The fact that Connor starts to say contractions toward the end support that he's starting to move more toward the colonial way of life. Likely a goof on Noah's part, but rather interesting the contractions Connor uses are all toward the end of the game and ToKW and not in the beginning.

When it comes down to it, my point still stands. Noah recorded the lines over multiple months and potentially re-recorded lines multiple times. He likely recorded his lines out of order much like how movies and TV shows film scenes out of order. He likely also recorded his lines between other acting projects so had other things on his mind. Mohawk is not his native language and he learned it on the fly just for the role. I honestly doubt most of the people nitpicking over the pronunciation of Ratonhnaké:ton can record the initial lines for the part, go off to do another acting job for a bit, come back to record some new lines and possibly re-record a few older lines, go off to do another job, come back to do some motion capture, do a third job, come back to re-record MORE lines and possibly more motion capture, etc and remain consistent. The guy was consistent enough that it's taken THIS long for people to pick up on the variations.

If you really want to nitpick, try watching the English dub of Sailor Moon. I remember cringing through the third and fourth seasons due to dubbing goofs making me cry wondering why the VAs didn't correct the goofs themselves. I'm sure other dubs are just as terrible. Thing is, VAs are paid by the line. They aren't paid for their opinion. They get told how to say something and they do it or they get fired. VA work is terrible pay which is why VAs often have so many jobs at a time. VAs are also a dime a dozen, especially in a terrible job market. Ubisoft could've picked up another Native American off a reservation for a fraction of Noah's salary if he took issue with anything and trained the guy themselves. Or they could've just hired a non-Native American to do the role and screw authenticity.

There's also the fact that many game VAs don't even play the game they do recordings for. It's just another job for them. All they hear are the lines they did the day they recorded and rarely hear the final product. By then, it's too late to go back and change things. You try being consistent when all you hear are bits and pieces of the whole thing. Noah was talking to himself the entire time and likely only got told the jist of the lines before and after his. Maybe he got lucky and heard someone else's line recorded earlier while he's recording some lines. Noah recorded the lines over several months so had to remember his own cadence in a language he didn't even speak natively. I'd say he did well enough. I know I couldn't do it. I can barely speak French and I took 6 years of it. Got told my French accent was great at the time, but I forgot most of it already. Took 2 years of Italian, too. Don't remember that, either. I'm in a largely Spanish speaking environment when English isn't used so I've had no reason to use Italian or French.

All people seem to do anymore is rip a part everything and don't want to appreciate what we do have. It's no wonder we've gotten into wars over small things over the years. If we stopped focusing on small things, we likely wouldn't fight so often because we'd all realize we're all human. It doesn't matter how we talk, look, our beliefs, etc. We all have 2 eyes, 2 ears, a nose, a mouth, and walk on 2 feet ... outside of the odd exception, but that's beyond the point. Nothing else should matter. I honestly don't think anyone on this forum can redo Connor's lines and be consistent the entire time while doing other things in the mean time.

SixKeys
01-10-2014, 09:51 PM
Where do people get off on thinking we're criticizing the entire game if someone points out ONE inconsistency? People are happy to rip into AC1 because "zOMGzorz Altaďr has an American accent, what a loser that actor was!" but when Noah Watts consistently mispronounces his own character's name, it's heresy to even mention it. It's just a thing someone noticed and thought was interesting enough to bring up. People were going "yeah, it was kind of odd/funny", not "This is why AC3 is the worstest game ever!!!1". Stop being so damn defensive about everything.

roostersrule2
01-10-2014, 10:08 PM
I think you're all being harsh, it would have been hard of Noah to play a potato, let-alone give it a voice! A few mishaps here and there are to be expected.

BATISTABUS
01-10-2014, 10:11 PM
If you're looking for an in-universe explanation (which may not be the actual reason), perhaps Connor was saying it in a way that would be easier for Achilles to hear/understand/pronounce.