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View Full Version : [IMO] Metal Gear Solid V = What AC should always have been



AdamPearce
01-05-2014, 07:17 PM
Hi everyone, just wanted to express something. So, as you probably know, Kojima annouced the Next episode in the Metal Gear Solid saga (which is incredible btw) and while I was watching the trailer, I couldn't stop saying to myself ''Man, I hope AC was like that'' and then I realise, this is how it should be, and how it should always have been.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJHbzZt0oX0

Now I know that

AC is not an infiltration game
AC must have cities
AC has no automatic gun
AC has no CQC
AC has none of the maturity of MGS
AC has non of the story of MGS
AC has non of the characters of MGS
AC is not MGS

But, here I want to talk gameplay-wise and also about feeling. Not the feeling that the story provides you, but the feeling of the character.

AC suffers from a massive problem since the first game, and it is the one of infiltration. A lot of people talk about how the combat and how it was better in this or this AC...but I've seen very few people talking about the sneaking in AC, which should a major part of the game nontheless. Must I remind that one of the precept of the Assassin's Creed is not to be seen? I am aware that Black Flag provided some kind of infiltration. But it was mostly moving from a bush to another. You can surely play without being detected...but it has none of the feeling you get when you sneak in Metal Gear Solid or Splinter Cell. And that's really unfortunate because it would had a whole new dimension to the games and expend the gameplay possibilities.

About possibilities, in the MGSV gameplay, we've seen that the player could use a lot of the environment to sneak, to hide, to travel, it is totally open. AC should be the same, but it's not. Most of the time, the level design gives you one or two routes to reach your target. And sometimes there is only one way, since the gameplay isn't pushed, you don't have the suffiscent abilities to properly pass by those routes. Also, tailing missions often needs you to follow a selected path, either on rooftops, or on the ground. This is something that should change for future games, being fully open is the key for a succesfull Open World game, strategic freedom as the call it.

Finally, the feeling. AC games have no feelings, no physics, no weight. You character feels empty, like a bag. Same goes for the NPCs. Now look at MGSV, just look at the horse sprint, simply this feels real, feels heavy, feels like a sprinting horse ! The same goes for running (3:00), rolling (2:45), crawling (4:09) and jumping(4:02). It just feels incredibly real, and this is the kind of realism than AC should have.

What ya think? Should AC turn to a more realistic action adventure game or keep that arcade side it has.

pacmanate
01-05-2014, 07:22 PM
I want it to go more realistic, I still think AC textures are cartoony.

DinoSteve1
01-05-2014, 07:29 PM
tbh Splinter Cell is even more stealthy than MGS ever was.

AdamPearce
01-05-2014, 07:34 PM
tbh Splinter Cell is even more stealthy than MGS ever was.

True but MGS V gameplay fits much more the AC Universe than the SCBL does. Though I surely won't complain if they introduce SC gameplay in AC. But even SC has this 'cartoonish' texture, less than AC but more than MGSV.

DinoSteve1
01-05-2014, 07:54 PM
I dunno the latest splinter cell had more of a film quality than a cartoonish one, I was actually rather impressed with it, but I'd imagine the way Sam Fisher operates in the field is how a modern assassin would operate.

AdamPearce
01-05-2014, 08:10 PM
I dunno the latest splinter cell had more of a film quality than a cartoonish one, I was actually rather impressed with it, but I'd imagine the way Sam Fisher operates in the field is how a modern assassin would operate.

Now you say it...

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-khMA_P_11PA/UhroqNcyHLI/AAAAAAAAAfs/7iVWFARoXhM/s1600/splinter-cell-blacklist-pc-screen-2.jpg

PedroAntonio2
01-05-2014, 08:13 PM
Assassin's Creed was supposed to be the MGS of PS3/X360 Generation, Patrice Désilets was supposed to be the Kojima of this generation. Kojima and Patrice are friends, Kojima helped him with some advices for ACII. I loved al the ACs, but Kojima ended MGS Saga in the fourth game and what Ubisoft did with Assassin's Creed ? They even have a plan to end the saga ? Or they going to recycle one game after another just to get more money and when everyone stops buying their games, they are going to say '' OH, LETS END THE SAGA.''

LoyalACFan
01-05-2014, 09:27 PM
Assassin's Creed was supposed to be the MGS of PS3/X360 Generation, Patrice Désilets was supposed to be the Kojima of this generation. Kojima and Patrice are friends, Kojima helped him with some advices for ACII. I loved al the ACs, but Kojima ended MGS Saga in the fourth game and what Ubisoft did with Assassin's Creed ? They even have a plan to end the saga ? Or they going to recycle one game after another just to get more money and when everyone stops buying their games, they are going to say '' OH, LETS END THE SAGA.''

Except that Kojima didn't end the saga with MGS4... MGS5 and MGRR, anyone?

As for the OP, while I agree that MGS5 looks incredible at the moment, let's wait until it comes out before we judge, OK? Because it seems to be breaking with MGS tradition, and any game that takes that many risks always has a chance of falling on its face. I'm particularly concerned about the open world, because Kojima has never made one before and I'm worried whether or not they'll be able to make it full and "alive" enough to justify the sandbox. If it's just going to be a huge dusty Afghan wasteland, what's the point?

Regarding AC characters feeling empty and weightless, I totally agree. I think it's a product of the one-button style of freerunning. Your character has a tendency to spaz out and jump all over the place effortlessly since they only have one running input, making them feel sort of airy and not as grounded as Altair or Ezio were with the two-button style. It doesn't help that you can now sprint and shove through an entire crowd of civilians without breaking speed. It makes the civilians feel like feathers you can push out of your way.

PedroAntonio2
01-05-2014, 09:55 PM
Except that Kojima didn't end the saga with MGS4... MGS5 and MGRR, anyone?

As for the OP, while I agree that MGS5 looks incredible at the moment, let's wait until it comes out before we judge, OK? Because it seems to be breaking with MGS tradition, and any game that takes that many risks always has a chance of falling on its face. I'm particularly concerned about the open world, because Kojima has never made one before and I'm worried whether or not they'll be able to make it full and "alive" enough to justify the sandbox. If it's just going to be a huge dusty Afghan wasteland, what's the point?

Regarding AC characters feeling empty and weightless, I totally agree. I think it's a product of the one-button style of freerunning. Your character has a tendency to spaz out and jump all over the place effortlessly since they only have one running input, making them feel sort of airy and not as grounded as Altair or Ezio were with the two-button style. It doesn't help that you can now sprint and shove through an entire crowd of civilians without breaking speed. It makes the civilians feel like feathers you can push out of your way.

MGSV will only conclude Big Boss saga, but MGS4 ended what started in MGS1. The ending in the cemetery, anyone ? And MGR is just a Spin-Off to explore Raiden's story.

LoyalACFan
01-05-2014, 09:59 PM
MGSV will only conclude Big Boss saga, but MGS4 ended what started in MGS1. The ending in the cemetery, anyone ? And MGR is just a Spin-Off to explore Raiden's story.

Kojima concluded the Solid Snake arc, but the Big Boss arc and especially the Raiden arc are still wide open. MGS as a whole shows no signs of stopping. Just like Ubisoft concluded the Altair, Ezio, Edward, Desmond, and probably Connor arcs, but the franchise as a whole is still going strong. MGS is no more concluded than AC.

PedroAntonio2
01-05-2014, 10:00 PM
And MGSV won'r disappoint, Kojima wouldn't let us down.....

PedroAntonio2
01-05-2014, 10:07 PM
Kojima concluded the Solid Snake arc, but the Big Boss arc and especially the Raiden arc are still wide open. MGS as a whole shows no signs of stopping. Just like Ubisoft concluded the Altair, Ezio, Edward, Desmond, and probably Connor arcs, but the franchise as a whole is still going strong. MGS is no more concluded than AC.

MGS V looks like the last MGS game for me...they are going to show Big Boss after the events of Peace Walker, show him in coma for nine year and then conclude his saga a few years before MG1. Raiden has a lot of story, but I doubt they are going to give him a MGS VI ou something like it, he is totally going to continue in MGR2, MGR3, etc. AC needs to have an ending, at least for the modern days settings...I hope in ACVI they are going to conclude Juno's Arc with Templars and Assassins uniting against her in a final battle and then, the series could continue with the story in past time periods, but without the '' Someone using the Animus'' to relive those memories.

Fatal-Feit
01-06-2014, 12:31 AM
'' Someone using the Animus'' to relive those memories.

I'm totally fine with that. Do you actually play AC to be immersed in its modern day story?

I play AC to visit and immerse myself in settings that most video games are too afraid to approach while having a great story and gameplay with it. AC have never disappointed.

Really, do you actually watch AC trailers and go ''OMG I CAN'T WAIT TO SEE WHAT HAPPENS NEXT IN MODERN DAY''

DinoSteve1
01-06-2014, 12:34 AM
I did before AC3 came out, you can't imagine my disappointment.

LoyalACFan
01-06-2014, 12:35 AM
Really, do you actually watch AC trailers and go ''OMG I CAN'T WAIT TO SEE WHAT HAPPENS NEXT IN MODERN DAY''

Some people actually do. Personally I don't give a crap about it, but I'm always surprised by how many people actually care about the whole Juno/Abstergo thing. To each their own, I guess.

itsamea-mario
01-06-2014, 08:31 AM
I dno, i never really felt AC should be like MGS, more stealth elements would be very nice, proper sneaking with intelligent enemies that have more ways of detecting you, but obviousl giving us more ways to avoid detection, making stealth not only more viable but also more necessary. Still, AC shouldn't be a sneaking game really, AC1 always made a point of social stealth, the whole hide in plain site idea, subtle things, disguises, diversions, Perhaps being able to manipulate events around us to avoid detection rather than spending 20 minutes crawling like a snake.

this bit isn't really AC related; I'm a massive MGS fan, but from what i've seen and heard of MGSV gameplay, i'm not impressed, things like mark and execute and slow motion to allow easier headshots make it seem like they're pulling a splinter cell. The story and open world aspects still intrigue me however.

dxsxhxcx
01-06-2014, 08:55 AM
I'm totally fine with that. Do you actually play AC to be immersed in its modern day story?

I play AC to visit and immerse myself in settings that most video games are too afraid to approach while having a great story and gameplay with it. AC have never disappointed.

Really, do you actually watch AC trailers and go ''OMG I CAN'T WAIT TO SEE WHAT HAPPENS NEXT IN MODERN DAY''


I believe those who enjoy the modern days don't see the historical and modern part as two separated things, both are part of something bigger that is Assassin's Creed... and yes, until AC3 what used to make me eager to get the next AC was to know what would happen next during the modern days because that's what all the games had in common and linked them together, but with what they did now, you can bet my money won't stay on this franchise for much time, by dumbing down the modern days they dumbed down the whole story of Assassin's Creed and not just a layer of it...

shobhit7777777
01-06-2014, 10:14 AM
I disagree

AC should focus on urban and social stealth when it comes to "Infiltration" because it is designed for that....nevermind the fact that its the only game that provides such an experience. The added stalking and sneaking elements in AC3 and BF were great...but lets not go full on 'Sam Fisher'

That said...if the developers continue to relate stealth with LOS sneaking and running around jungles....then yeah...I guess the game would need more MGS like elements. I just hope they move back to the more urban stealth model as seen in the Ezio trilogy

AdamPearce
01-07-2014, 12:57 AM
Assassin's Creed was supposed to be the MGS of PS3/X360 Generation, Patrice Désilets was supposed to be the Kojima of this generation. Kojima and Patrice are friends, Kojima helped him with some advices for ACII.

omg this is true ...http://www.joystiq.com/2009/10/22/kojima-and-desilets-trade-praise-over-assassins-creed-2-and-pea/

Koji and Dési are bros...Imagine Désilet going with Konami for '1666', would be great for him.

RinoTheBouncer
01-07-2014, 11:47 AM
AC needs some major improvements with weapons, with sneaking, with freedom to do what you want or reach the target however you want, not to mention how ridiculous being detected is becoming(when you get detected and fail, just because the guy you just killed saw you without even saying a word)or the optional objectives.

AC needs to be more realistic and needs much better graphics. If Beyond: Two Souls could do it on PS3, then I’m sure AC can do it. The graphics are reductive in the last game, and I know that you’ll say “It’s because of the porting..etc.” but no, it’s not just the porting, ACIII could’ve been much better and ACIV too. The trees look like intersecting vertical planes with textures of leaves. I’m sure they can do better, but they don’t want to. It’s like “Pick the cheapest way to sell a game every year and trim the graphics, story and directing as much as you can”.

pirate1802
01-07-2014, 11:51 AM
I disagree

AC should focus on urban and social stealth when it comes to "Infiltration" because it is designed for that....nevermind the fact that its the only game that provides such an experience. The added stalking and sneaking elements in AC3 and BF were great...but lets not go full on 'Sam Fisher'

A million times this! AC used to be about social stealth, not sneaky sneak Sam Fisher-style stealth. Its good that they have the second type of stealth in AC IV but I'd rather have them move back on the original path than further along the Fisher path.

And as an aside I think graphically AC looks absolutely fantastic, no huge urgency to change anything.. at least as I can see on my PC. Beyond... well apart from obviously the facial animations the other aspects of the graphics didn't wow me. And even then, I'd not want AC to aim for Beyond's facial animations. They have their own set of disadvantages, which may not be obvious. Facial animations starting from AC3 look fantastic anyway.

AdamPearce
01-08-2014, 12:37 AM
A million times this! AC used to be about social stealth, not sneaky sneak Sam Fisher-style stealth. Its good that they have the second type of stealth in AC IV but I'd rather have them move back on the original path than further along the Fisher path.

As you said, used to be. And social stealth was always the same. Bench, groups and..that's it. I aggre that they clearly should have blending in crows, like in the AC1 trailer. It was part of AC1 for most of the Assassination, and it was great. Only, AC can't relly on this only, it must have others possibilities, and one of them is to be sneaky Snake. Also, since AC1, this whole social stealth is gone. It could've been back in AC3 (with the Anvil Next and the 1000 npcs thing) but they decided other way...


And as an aside I think graphically AC looks absolutely fantastic, no huge urgency to change anything.. at least as I can see on my PC. Beyond... well apart from obviously the facial animations the other aspects of the graphics didn't wow me. And even then, I'd not want AC to aim for Beyond's facial animations. They have their own set of disadvantages, which may not be obvious. Facial animations starting from AC3 look fantastic anyway.

You must be kidding, AC games are ugly. AC1 was great in his time, so was AC2. ACB was more polished, ACR was clearly ages form what was done at his time (Uncharted 3), AC3 was beautiful, especially in an animation point of view. And now AC4 is a joke in face of Watch_Dogs, The Divison, MGS V, Destiny, etc.

And facial animations are ridiculous, I'll make a .gif about it sometime.

pirate1802
01-08-2014, 02:26 AM
Lol, okay if you say so chief. Maybe I'm blind but I still believe AC games look bloody beautiful for an open wold game.

And they can do a lot, LOT more with social stealth, they haven't even scratched the surface. Better NPC routines, better AI.. etc. The horizon is far ahead if they are imaginative.

AdamPearce
01-08-2014, 02:36 AM
For a 7th generation Open-World game* plz

I agree, they really should incorporate a day/ night thing. LIke in the day it's social stealth, blending with the crowds...and the night you must work in the shadows and not be seen. It could be really awesome !

pirate1802
01-08-2014, 02:41 AM
Yeah, still think it looks great.

A blend of social and traditional stealth would indeed be awesome.

dxsxhxcx
01-08-2014, 02:45 AM
Yeah, still think it looks great.

A blend of social and traditional stealth would indeed be awesome.

I just hope it doesn't take them 6 more games to do something, because IMO there are some things related to the core gameplay of this franchise that shouldn't even be the topic of discussions anymore...

AdamPearce
01-08-2014, 02:56 AM
I just hope it doesn't take them 6 more games to do something, because IMO there are some things related to the core gameplay of this franchise that shouldn't even be the topic of discussions anymore...

Combat
Freerun
Stealth

Also wtf with the hyper zoom camera on the Leaps of Faith ? Was it clipping that stopped them ? Cause it's really a dumb move.

MnemonicSyntax
01-08-2014, 04:40 AM
As you said, used to be. And social stealth was always the same. Bench, groups and..that's it. I aggre that they clearly should have blending in crows, like in the AC1 trailer. It was part of AC1 for most of the Assassination, and it was great. Only, AC can't relly on this only, it must have others possibilities, and one of them is to be sneaky Snake. Also, since AC1, this whole social stealth is gone. It could've been back in AC3 (with the Anvil Next and the 1000 npcs thing) but they decided other way...



You must be kidding, AC games are ugly. AC1 was great in his time, so was AC2. ACB was more polished, ACR was clearly ages form what was done at his time (Uncharted 3), AC3 was beautiful, especially in an animation point of view. And now AC4 is a joke in face of Watch_Dogs, The Divison, MGS V, Destiny, etc.

And facial animations are ridiculous, I'll make a .gif about it sometime.

All those are Next Gen games as their base, while ACIV used current gen and "spiced it up" for Next Gen. In fact, only one of those games I'm pretty sure will be on both Gen consoles.

LoyalACFan
01-08-2014, 08:10 AM
All those are Next Gen games as their base, while ACIV used current gen and "spiced it up" for Next Gen. In fact, only one of those games I'm pretty sure will be on both Gen consoles.

This. Black Flag was held back by the current-gen, while all of those other titles will be primarily next-gen based. We've been promised that the next AC will feel "truly" next-gen, so I'm eager to see what that looks like. Because Watch_Dogs is a Ubi game too, and it looks fantastic.

dxsxhxcx
01-08-2014, 10:59 AM
This. Black Flag was held back by the current-gen, while all of those other titles will be primarily next-gen based. We've been promised that the next AC will feel "truly" next-gen, so I'm eager to see what that looks like. Because Watch_Dogs is a Ubi game too, and it looks fantastic.

I thought Watch Dogs would be released for PS3/Xbox 360 as well...

LoyalACFan
01-08-2014, 11:27 AM
I thought Watch Dogs would be released for PS3/Xbox 360 as well...

It will. The difference is, AC4 was a primarily current-gen game that was spruced up a bit for next-gen, whereas W_D appears to be a primarily next-gen game that will be (based on that Aisha Tyler clip from a few months ago) severely dumbed down for PS3/360.