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XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 01:13 AM
Well, I`ve always wondered. Were the allied pilots already briefed to expect a plane without propellers flying at a ridiculous speed? Or was it a TOTAL surprise? Were English, American and Russian pilots gawping at the ME262 for 5 mins before they pulled themselves together? I`m still personally amazed by the these jets flying among prop planes in 1944/45 when I look at the sim.

Does anyone know? Any accounts?



"Tis better to work towards an Impossible Good, rather than a Possible Evil."

SeaFireLIV.
(Spitfire & Escape Whiner Member).


Message Edited on 09/16/0312:15AM by SeaFireLIV

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 01:13 AM
Well, I`ve always wondered. Were the allied pilots already briefed to expect a plane without propellers flying at a ridiculous speed? Or was it a TOTAL surprise? Were English, American and Russian pilots gawping at the ME262 for 5 mins before they pulled themselves together? I`m still personally amazed by the these jets flying among prop planes in 1944/45 when I look at the sim.

Does anyone know? Any accounts?



"Tis better to work towards an Impossible Good, rather than a Possible Evil."

SeaFireLIV.
(Spitfire & Escape Whiner Member).


Message Edited on 09/16/0312:15AM by SeaFireLIV

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 01:37 AM
My computer teacher's father was one of the first bombing groups to witness the 262 in combat in a raid over Berlin in August of 1944. He said it was the scariest thing he had ever seen in his life. He remarked at the unmatched speed, in total awe as he watched helplessly from the ball turret of a B-17! Apparently, one group comprised of Tuskegee airmen defended their spotless record and sent them home without ever loosing a single bomber.

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XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 01:40 AM
"The first time I ever saw a jet, I shot it down." - Chuck Yeager.

Regards,

SkyChimp

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XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 01:40 AM
I've always read that the allied pilots were told to be aware.Now was it got through spying or did someone see test flights I don't know.They were still suprised as hell though,100mph had to be shocking.

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 02:23 AM
SkyChimp wrote:


"The first time I ever saw a jet, I shot it down." - Chuck Yeager.

Regards,

Now SkyChimp, that`s very dramatic and very American, but it tells me nothing. I want to know the EXPERIENCES. NOT bravado. I`m sure if Chuck Yeager were reading this he`d be able to say a little more than that! Although I`m pretty sure you knew what I meant anyway.

Rest of you guys thanks for your accounts- very interesting. Any more?



"Tis better to work towards an Impossible Good, rather than a Possible Evil."

SeaFireLIV.
(Spitfire & Escape Whiner Member).


Message Edited on 09/16/0301:24AM by SeaFireLIV

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 02:51 AM
I know the P-47 drivers called them "blow jobs"

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XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 02:53 AM
SeaFireLIV wrote:

- and very American

Seafire, are you at all interested in this subject?




Regards,

SkyChimp

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XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 03:01 AM
If I remember correctly, I think it was something like..

"Hey, what do you reckon that is?"
"Dunno, lookit those wings. Looks like a C-47."
"You klutz, ever seen a C-47 go that fast?"
"Holy, shi*!"

*Kaboom!*

"Why's that thing going down?"
"Dunno, looks like an engine failure or somethin'"


..


-----------
Due to pressure from the moderators, the sig returns to..

"It's the machine, not the man." - Materialist, and proud of it!

Message Edited on 09/16/0311:02AM by kweassa

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 03:53 AM
My father was a Lancaster Pilot with RNZAF Sqdn 75 (NZ squadron but with a major mix of nationalities). During his stint between 42-45 he had a few run in's with the original Gloster/Whittle jet (I think it was the Gloster E.28).

Apparently the Gloster would run some dummy intercepts against his and other Lanc's. Not sure the timing of the intercepts (Pre-Post raid or local familirisation flights).

I can't repeat his reaction to being buzzed by the Squirt (that's what they named the thing), but it certainly made an impression. Some 40 odd years latter he still remembers it vividly.

The crew had no official news about the jet (you know - need to know and all that) but word soon got around the aircrews about a propless Squirt of a plane


Gos

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 04:47 AM
""The first time I ever saw a jet, I shot it down." - Chuck Yeager"

pffft

While the 262 was landing

Real tough kill Dave

" As he described the event in his combat report, "I spotted a 262 approaching the field from the south at 500 feet. He was going very slow (around 200 m.p.h.). I "split S-ed on it and was going around 500 m.p.h. at 500 feet. Flak started coming up very thick and accurate. I fired a short burst from around 400 yards and got hits on the wings. Had to break off at 300 yards because the flak was getting too close... looking back I saw the Jet E/A crash-land about 400 yards short of the field in a wooded field. A wing flew off outside the right jet unit. The plane did not burn."

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Message Edited on 09/16/0303:55AM by Heuristic_ALgor

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 04:52 AM
SkyChimp wrote:
- "The first time I ever saw a jet, I shot it down." -
- Chuck Yeager.
-
- Regards,
-
- SkyChimp

I bet most of the German aces would say something similer about the P-51, P-38 and P-47. I think the origanal poster was asking what the general reactions were not those of the hotshots.

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XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 05:15 AM
Gee, you post a quote like "The first time I saw a jet, I shot it down." and you get people jumping all over you. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

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XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 05:15 AM
SeaFireLIV wrote:
- Well, I`ve always wondered. Were the allied pilots
- already briefed to expect a plane without
- propellers flying at a ridiculous speed? Or was it a
- TOTAL surprise?


"The introduction of the German jets to operational service did not come as a surprise to the Allies. They had know n through intelligence service of the jets' existence, and later photographs began to appear that showed the jets on the ground as high flying photo reconaissance missions began to pick them out.

Top secret messages intercepted fromt e German Enigma-coded messaged chronicled the establishment and location of new jet units in the Luftwaffe..."


From German Jets Versus the US Army Air Force by Hess.

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 05:24 AM
I have no real stuff about this but AFAIK a recon Mosquito was the first to actually meet a Me 262 (of Versuchskommando Thierfelder) in combat. The Mosquito got away, but I can imagine that the crew was a bit ... uhh ... "negatively surprised" that they were no longer untouchable. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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Message Edited on 09/16/0305:25AM by csThor

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 05:25 AM
Heuristic_ALgor wrote:
- ""The first time I ever saw a jet, I shot it down."
- - Chuck Yeager"
-
- pffft
-
- While the 262 was landing
-
- Real tough kill Dave
-
- " As he described the event in his combat report, "I
- spotted a 262 approaching the field from the south
- at 500 feet. He was going very slow (around 200
- m.p.h.). I "split S-ed on it and was going around
- 500 m.p.h. at 500 feet. Flak started coming up very
- thick and accurate. I fired a short burst from
- around 400 yards and got hits on the wings. Had to
- break off at 300 yards because the flak was getting
- too close... looking back I saw the Jet E/A
- crash-land about 400 yards short of the field in a
- wooded field. A wing flew off outside the right jet
- unit. The plane did not burn."
-


Thanks, I think this is a little more of what the poster had in mind. I'd like to add that even shooting a 262 down as it was landing, or taking off, had to require a great deal of courage. At 500 ft. you would have been almost as easy of a target for the flak as the jet was for your guns. I do not think that this account takes away from the acomplishment at all, but rather clarifies things a bit for me.


Tsisqua

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Tsalagi Asgaya Equa!

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 05:29 AM
First allied aircraft to ever meet a ME-262 was the P-47. The account according to the flight leader went something like this. I don't have the book it was in anymore so this is just from my memory.

We were cruising along in formation with 7 P-47's when suddenly the far right aircraft in formation suddenly exploded in mid air.
We didn't know what it was, but it was fast and before we could react it had turned back into us.
On it's second pass another wingman was blown apart by the strange aircraft.
We broke formation and it turned on me (Captain of flight). I had no idea of what to do so I slammed on the brakes, and opened up as it over shot my aircraft.
It then flew off trailing smoke from one engine, and we were unable to pursue.

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 05:40 AM
SeaFireLIV wrote:
- Well, I`ve always wondered. Were the allied pilots
- already briefed to expect a plane without
- propellers flying at a ridiculous speed? Or was it a
- TOTAL surprise? Were English, American and Russian
- pilots gawping at the ME262 for 5 mins before they
- pulled themselves together? I`m still personally
- amazed by the these jets flying among prop planes in
- 1944/45 when I look at the sim.
- Does anyone know? Any accounts?

From Lonely Eagles by Robert Rose:

The 332nd's missions with the 15th Air Force had thier climax on March 24,1945 when, with Colonel Davis leading, the group flew cover for B-17s in a 1,600 mile round trip attack on Berlin.......
Over the target, the group encountered several German jet fighters, ME 262s. Up to this point only two confirmed victories over the vaunted 262 had been scored by XV Fighter Command, both by the 31st FG and on this day the 332nd scored three of eight confirmations, the other five again going to the 31st.
In the first victory for the Red Tails, 1st Lt. Roscoe Browne started an attack only to find one of the jets hanging on his tail. Maneuverability of the Mustang and evasive tactics saved Browne. Weaving first left then right caused the enemy fighter to overshoot him. Now on the tail of the jet, Browne closed and fired several bursts into the Messerschmitt. The pilot parachuted to safety while his plane spun into the ground.
Flight Officer Charles V. Brantley didnt know it when he scored his first victory, the second 262 for the 332nd that day. Firing on his adversary he saw strikes on the fuselage but as he closed in for more shots, the jet nosed over and he passed it by. Other pilots told of seeing the jet continue down and crash into the ground.
The remaining victory confirmed that day was scored by 1st Lt. Earle Lane when he followed a jet in a dive that started at 20,000 ft and ended at 6,000 with Lane firing repeated short bursts that set the jet afire. Fellow pilots described the jet belching black smoke and out of control as it continued screaming to the ground. Group leader Capt. MacDaniel and Lt. Leon Spears were shot down and became prisoners of war. Lt. Hannibal Cox, a daring pilot had one foot of his wing shot off but returned to complete 65 missions.

So.... I guess ...they shot them down..or tried to. Sort of the same thing any pilot fighting for his life would have done........ American or otherwise..


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XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 06:20 AM
Seafire,
did you expect another answer, from ultra patriotic Americans ?



http://www.bayern.de/Layout/wappen.gif

Bavaria is one of the oldest European states.
It dates back to about 500 A.D., when the Roman Empire was overcome by the onslaught of Germanic tribes. According to a widespread theory, the Bavarian tribe had descended from the Romans who remained in the country, the original Celtic population and the Germanic invaders.

Bavarian History : http://www.bayern.de/Bayern/Information/geschichteE.html#kap0

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 09:53 AM
All excellent stuff.
Markgos- `Squirt` for the meteor, I didn`t know that.
Heuristic_ALgor, Hopperfly, Bearcat and Tsisqua. Thankyou very much on your responses.

The ACTUAL detail of Chuck Yeager`s kill was what I wanted to hear. The detail from Hopperfly on the P-47 encounters with the ME262 was brilliant. Good stuff from Bearcat also.
I really have learnt something which I hoped would be the case.

You see, Skychimp, you shouldn`t jump to conclusions about anti-Americanism. Yours preconceived ideas meant that you completely missed the point. And leapt to unwarranted accusations.

(I don`t have to say this cos I don`t have to prove anything, but I have reasonably close relatives in New York who visit our family about twice a year! Good God believing people too!)

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif



"Tis better to work towards an Impossible Good, rather than a Possible Evil."

SeaFireLIV.
(Spitfire & Escape Whiner Member).


Message Edited on 09/16/0308:55AM by SeaFireLIV

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 10:06 AM
I have read the book of Jonny Johnsson and he wasnt the first to face it so he was prepaired.
He saw a fast moving shadow at low altitude, he tried to catch up but it flew away and to "add injury to insult it made a perfect barell roll and disapeared"
The Me-262 almost made some bomber-wings to stop bombing, after all the war was won and there where hardly no targets left.
Only one Me262 was shoot down by a russian fighter pilot.

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 11:05 AM
Hm,

the 262 sure did not come as a surprise to the crews. I remember having read a mid 44 Issues of "Impact" - a magazine circulated down to squadron level at the time - having the pictures and data on more than one german jet,
And in the same isse - or one after - the P-80 was explained as well ....

I could be worng, but I could dig it up for you if you care ...


Cheers
Snip


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TM 1-210, Elementary Flying, US AAC, 1942

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 11:15 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Seafire,
did you expect another answer, from ultra patriotic Americans ? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Lol, that's funny, what's the matter? If the topic starter expected only worshipping comments, then that's his fault, not this of Yeager or SkyChimp http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. "What were the first reactions of pilots who met the 262 in combat?" Well, Yeagers first reaction was to shoot it down http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif. If Luftwhiners can't even take a comment of a WWII veteran ace with some humor, then who is "ultra-patriotic" here, eggheads?



=38=OIAE

47|FC=-

Message Edited on 09/16/0310:17AM by Heart_C

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 12:05 PM
funny ?

yes , indeed, to call me luftwhiner . /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
who said , a german don´t know what is funny ?
you are a german ,but its doesn´t matter, at least not for me .





http://www.bayern.de/Layout/wappen.gif

Bavaria is one of the oldest European states.
It dates back to about 500 A.D., when the Roman Empire was overcome by the onslaught of Germanic tribes. According to a widespread theory, the Bavarian tribe had descended from the Romans who remained in the country, the original Celtic population and the Germanic invaders.

Bavarian History : http://www.bayern.de/Bayern/Information/geschichteE.html#kap0

Message Edited on 09/16/0311:06AM by Boandlgramer

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 12:29 PM
I run a search for the 262 a couple of weeks ago.
I read accounts of pilots who met it in combat as well as pilots who flew them out of Germany to be tested by the US.
On more than one occasions I read about B-17 gunners reporting that their turrets did not rotate fast enough to keep track with the jets.
Most 262s were lost of course on approach or shortly after takeoff.
Some were lost as a result of machanical failure or a surprise attack.
A 262 could not be taken on by any piston engined fighter even though Skychimp would have you believe that certain supermen could do this flying P-47s while chewing tobacco looking unimpressed while they brought down annoying-sounding pregnant looking German piles of smoking crap.
Nice try.

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XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 12:48 PM
Boandlgramer wrote:
- Seafire,
- did you expect another answer, from ultra patriotic
- Americans ?

Christos_swc wrote:
I run a search for the 262 a couple of weeks ago.
I read accounts of pilots who met it in combat as well as pilots who flew them out of Germany to be tested by the US.
On more than one occasions I read about B-17 gunners reporting that their turrets did not rotate fast enough to keep track with the jets.
*Most 262s were lost of course on approach or shortly after takeoff.*
Some were lost as a result of machanical failure or a surprise attack.
*A 262 could not be taken on by any piston engined fighter even though Skychimp would have you believe that certain supermen could do this flying P-47s while chewing tobacco looking unimpressed while they brought down annoying-sounding pregnant looking German piles of smoking crap.
Nice try.*


Ahem!!..... I know a lot of 262s were taken out on landing but the 3 accounts I mentioned above were all in combat....... unless of course those accounts were all fabrications by Ultra Patriotic Americans which is highly possible since as you two history experts know we Americans couldnt do anything right....especially with all that tobacco juice getting everywhere.... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
You guys kill me......but I still love ya anyway...



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XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 01:15 PM
bearcat, i like you too, no kidding./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

but his post (chimp ) was so typical for him.

be sure , i didn´t mean Chuck Y.
yes i know , he shot down a me262.
and also i know ,the messerschmitt 262 wasn´t a uberplane.
but what plane is it ? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif








http://www.bayern.de/Layout/wappen.gif

Bavaria is one of the oldest European states.
It dates back to about 500 A.D., when the Roman Empire was overcome by the onslaught of Germanic tribes. According to a widespread theory, the Bavarian tribe had descended from the Romans who remained in the country, the original Celtic population and the Germanic invaders.

Bavarian History : http://www.bayern.de/Bayern/Information/geschichteE.html#kap0

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 01:17 PM
Not all of us are ultrapatriotic. I am an American and I love this country. I just visited Italy for the first time last week and its a great country. I was also in Germany and I have to say that the cultures are different than in the USA but European cultures have alot to offer and we Americans can learn a thing of two from the europeans. For one thing, our coffee sucks compared to that in Italia.



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XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 01:25 PM
SeaFireLIV wrote:
- Well, I`ve always wondered. Were the allied pilots
- already briefed to expect a plane without
- propellers flying at a ridiculous speed? Or was it a
- TOTAL surprise?

Interesting that you should ask... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Well I know a guy who is like family to me, and flew 7
missions in the Pacific untill shot down in a B 17 D at Midway.
He also flew 77 (!!!!!!) missions in B 17's in
Europe,(305,306 BG's) 7 more in Lancasters, 12 in Mosquitoes,
and a bunch in an unarmed P 47 on *ramrod* missions.
(He has the second all time
highst number of combat missions over europe of any American airman)

He and his BG had been brieded on 262's, and 163's
and when he first saw the 262, he was VERY impressed
with it's speed !!!!! His main reaction was, "well
we thought we had gotten through the worst of it,
(earlier combat missions, like Schweinfurt twice)
and thought if there were enough 262's, things could
get bad again" He saw them several more times, but
was never attacked by them personally. Dont remember
if he saw a 163 or not, I will have to ask him.
(I think he said they called the 262's "Blow Job's")


What really impressed the hell out of him, were seeing
V 2 contrails going straight up, and out of sight.
He had not been briefed on that, and it got his,
(their collective) attention.

Dont know if that was the spark, but he went into
SAC missile command after the war, and ended up flying
looking glass missions all through the '60s
He was the only person I knew in the 1960's who had
a phone in his car !!

Retired with over 19,000 flight hours !!!!!!!!!!!
(Bronze, and Sliver stars, everything but the MOH)



Al

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 01:26 PM
I remember watching an episode of, I think, World at War. They showed a clip from an American bomber where the two waist gunners had just seen a 262 fly by. My English was much poorer at that time, so I can't remember what exactly they said. Neither can I remember the Japanese translations at the bottom, but the shock and fear in their voices could be understood in any language.

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 01:33 PM
I have some pilots on video talking about seeing this thing come screaming through the midle of there formation from the front,nobody fired a shot (not the yanks or the german)it was all to fast,he remembers thinking oh my god how are we going to fight that thing.

No1RAAF_Pourshot


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Ride it like ya stole it.

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 01:55 PM
looks as if Bearcat saved the day here again, otherwise it was a thread on a road to nowhere..../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

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Zayets
09-16-2003, 02:09 PM
Well,but is sad that in the game any 262 will follow you down there. take a Cobra and fly against 4 262 on ace setting. You will have no problem to shoot them down as long as you watch your six as well. Dogfighting aginst Me262 on ace is a great way of improving your deflection shooting.just give it a try. They accelerate so slow that is a beautiful sight when you squeeze the trigger and see that ball of fire on their engines. Pretty neat. I don't understand why they were banned from online servers because they can put a threat only for slow planes and n00bs alike.

Zayets out

http://www.arr.go.ro/iar81c.JPG

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 02:19 PM
Christos_swc wrote:

- A 262 could not be taken on by any piston engined
- fighter even though Skychimp would have you believe
- that certain supermen could do this flying P-47s

Well tell that to Yeager, Urban Drew (2 262's in a day)
and several others. They have the proof, you do not.

Matter of fact, tell that to Walter Nowatany's
family. (he was last seen going down with engine on
fire after attack by American escort fighters)


Just as it was very fast, it was also a poor
turn fighter.


Now get over yourself already...................


Al

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 02:29 PM
Nice IAR 80 picture

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Al

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 02:31 PM
Well the 'first' reaction was what the he!! was that! Of course that changed and by the time the Tuskegee Airmen escorted Bombers to Berlin, they had altered tatics and were good enough to down three in one mission. S!

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Zayets
09-16-2003, 02:43 PM
TokarevSVT wrote:
- Nice IAR 80 picture


Of course is nice! Every IAR is a beauty , especially in turnfights.

Zayets out

http://www.arr.go.ro/iar81c.JPG

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 03:11 PM
TokarevSVT wrote:
- Christos_swc wrote:
-
-- A 262 could not be taken on by any piston engined
-- fighter even though Skychimp would have you believe
-- that certain supermen could do this flying P-47s
-
- Well tell that to Yeager, Urban Drew (2 262's in a
- day)
- and several others. They have the proof, you do not.
-
- Matter of fact, tell that to Walter Nowatany's
- family. (he was last seen going down with engine on
- fire after attack by American escort fighters)
-
-
- Just as it was very fast, it was also a poor
- turn fighter.


Walter Nowotny was shot down while aproatching for
a landing, not in a dogfight. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif




.
<ceter>http://cards.austrosearch.at/images/pic_2002-08-06_193454.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 03:25 PM
the first allied to encounter the 262 was a SWEDISH PILOT! flying for RAF.

Read:

http://www.dalnet.se/~surfcity/swedish_aviators/christiernsson.htm



.
<ceter>http://cards.austrosearch.at/images/pic_2002-08-06_193454.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 03:46 PM
'The Me. 262s leveled out after the attack, but one of them peeled off to see about a bomber which was losing height. I increased revs, and boost, and approached the Me 262 from above his tail at 500 m.p.h. My Mustang quivered in her all-out effort and the engine was whining away at top pitch. I was not more than 1,000 yards away but couldn't gain any more. Jets must be faster than props., but I boosted once again and got a little closer. During the chase my Mustang shook so violently that the seat mounts literally snapped scaring me to hell. Finally I gave the Jerry a trial squirt. Seemed all right; just a little correction and I gave him a longish burst, then another and that seemed to have some effect. The Me. slowed up, I gave him a third dose and that certainly did the trick. I saw a flash and the Me. broke into two. The engines fell away from the fuselage, which went into a spin. The Jerry jumped out and his chute began to open up but almost immediately the fabric burst into flames. No need to follow the debris of the Messerschmitt or the Jerry to earth, so I climbed back and reported. The bombers were still steadily crawling homewards, and we resumed our positions along their flanks, weaving about along the line like sheep-dogs guarding their flock.'

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~me262/Gorzula.html

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 04:16 PM
about nowotny´s dead:

After shooting down one B-17, Nowotny was heard to say in a garbled radio transmission " Oh my God! I'm on fire!" The next thing that happened was a Me-262 breaking through the cloud cover on fire and diving straight into the ground. Postwar Allied records have indicated that Nowotny was attacked and damaged by Lt. Robert W. Stevens of the 364th Fighter Group. Nowotny's Me-262 nosed straight down through the clouds into the ground at Epe, about one mile east of Hesepe.


you can say, he was killed in a fight not while landing .


http://www.bayern.de/Layout/wappen.gif

Bavaria is one of the oldest European states.
It dates back to about 500 A.D., when the Roman Empire was overcome by the onslaught of Germanic tribes. According to a widespread theory, the Bavarian tribe had descended from the Romans who remained in the country, the original Celtic population and the Germanic invaders.

Bavarian History : http://www.bayern.de/Bayern/Information/geschichteE.html#kap0

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 04:30 PM
The engagements with early german jet fighters where so few and poorly documentet that I rarely give them much time. Not to mention their poor overall impact on the inevitable outcome.
What I do find impressive is the shooting down of V1 rockets by british, was it hurricans or tempest?, fighters.
Prop-power vs early stinger missils. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif
On the issue of some of our fellow american simflyers being ultra-patriots always flashing their brass and counting their dead. This is something that for a majority of europeans just sounds plain childish and anoying. And as such derails many a sober discussion.

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 05:18 PM
Afreaka wrote:
- What I do find impressive is the shooting down of V1
- rockets by british, was it hurricans or tempest?,
- fighters.

It was Tempests and late Spitfires.

The only surviving flightworthy Macchi MC.205 "Veltro"
http://www.uploadit.org/files/040903-MC205_Flying_picc.jpg


The Official MC.202/205, G.55 and Re.2005 Whiner</p>
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XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 05:24 PM
Afreaka wrote:
- - On the issue of some of our fellow american
- simflyers being ultra-patriots always flashing their
- brass and counting their dead. This is something
- that for a majority of europeans just sounds plain
- childish and anoying. And as such derails many a
- sober discussion.
-
-


I've seen a few European ultra patriots here too from time to time and they are just as childish and annoying. No one culture has a corner on that market.

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 05:27 PM
Cippacometa wrote:
-
- Afreaka wrote:
-- What I do find impressive is the shooting down of V1
-- rockets by british, was it hurricans or tempest?,
-- fighters.
-
- It was Tempests and late Spitfires.
-
- <

A few Mosquito night fighters too. I've read about a few of them shooting V-1's down at night.

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 05:29 PM
Gentlemen,
Who is the moderator on this forum?

I want to participate in the discussion, but cannot <u>because of the offensive sig of one of the participants.</u>


AKA_Bogun

---------------
The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense.

- Tom Clancy

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 05:47 PM
Every two days a noob drops in here to spread his "facts" about Me-262 (taken from some TV documentary).

Me-262 was rulling the skies at that time. It put the greatest performance gap in history between him and its enemies. Luftwaffe officials considered Me-262 as being the simplest fighter to fly in battle, it required the least number of combat flight training hours (remember combat flight training not general flight training). Jumo 004 was an air cooled turbine engine, which could keep the max setting at high speed without time limit (a luxury you don't have in a propeller plane). When a Me-262 encountered the enemy all the pilot had to do was zoom from max speed, followed by a simple reversal which always put it on top of all enemy planes. From here all it had to do was to choose the right target, the enormous firepower would have done the rest.

Here's what Galland says after he evaluated the plane:

"Berlin, 25 May 1943

Most esteemed Herr Generalfeldmarschall!

On Saturday, the 22nd of the month, I tested the ME 262 at Augsburg in the presence of Oberst Petersen and other persons from the Technical Office. I would have preferred to report personally to the Generalfeldmarschall and also elaborate on other matters, however I was so occupied after my visit to Sicily that there was simply no time. The Reichmarschall has ordered me to report today.

Concerning the Me 262, I beg to state the following:
1.) The aircraft represents an enormous leap forward, it would give us an unimaginable lead over the enemy if he adheres to the piston engine.
2.) In-flight handling of the airframe is impressive.
3.) The power plants are fully convincing, except during take-off and landing.
4.) The aircraft offers entirely new tactical prospects.

I beg to submit the following proposal: The Fw 190 D is under development, its performance should match the Me 209's in all respects. The performance of the two types, however, will not be superior to the enemy's models, particularly at altitude. The only progress seems to be in armament and higher speeds.
Conclusion:
a) Me 209 be discontinued
b) Total fighter production to switch from the Fw 190 with BMW 801 to the Fw 190 with DB 603 and Jumo 213 respectively.
c) The construction and industrial capacities thus released to be concentrated on the Me 262, with immediate effect.

I shall report immediately on my return.

Heil Hitler! Herr Generalfeldmarschall your most obedient servant.

Galland"



<center> http://www.stormbirds.com/images/discussion-main.jpg </center>

Message Edited on 09/16/0311:47AM by Huckebein_FW

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 05:56 PM
Heuristic_ALgor wrote:
- ""The first time I ever saw a jet, I shot it down."
- - Chuck Yeager"
-
- pffft
-
- While the 262 was landing
-
- Real tough kill Dave

Hehe, typical bullsh!t posting by an internet kiddo whose only act of bravery in life was telling his mommy he shat his pants.

Chuck Yeager had more guts in his pinky than you'll ever have in your life. Barrelling down through flak at low alt. to blow a jet out of the sky was probably one of the most dangerous kills you could do in WWII.

"Real tough kill Dave".... - - Hehehe... - guys like you hiding behind your computer screen, telling us who was brave and who wasn't in the air war in WWII...

CY had the atitude of great fighter pilots everywhere, anytime: "There's me and all the other planes are my targets". No matter the top speed, turning radius, etc.

Now go have your diapers changed.

Freycinet
<center>
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/delfin/SD/2001/flight/spitbf109/ellehammer-crop-for-il2-forum-reduced.jpg</center>
<center>My Il-2 web-site:</center><center><BIG>"Za Rodinu!"</BIG> (http://perso.wanadoo.fr/delfin/SD/2001/flight/il-2/index.htm)</center>

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 06:05 PM
Freycinet wrote:
-
- Heuristic_ALgor wrote:
-- ""The first time I ever saw a jet, I shot it down."
-- - Chuck Yeager"
--
-- pffft
--
-- While the 262 was landing
--
-- Real tough kill Dave
-
- Hehe, typical bullsh!t posting by an internet kiddo
- whose only act of bravery in life was telling his
- mommy he shat his pants.
-
- Chuck Yeager had more guts in his pinky than you'll
- ever have in your life. Barrelling down through flak
- at low alt. to blow a jet out of the sky was
- probably one of the most dangerous kills you could
- do in WWII.
-
- "Real tough kill Dave".... - - Hehehe... - guys like
- you hiding behind your computer screen, telling us
- who was brave and who wasn't in the air war in
- WWII...
-
- CY had the atitude of great fighter pilots
- everywhere, anytime: "There's me and all the other
- planes are my targets". No matter the top speed,
- turning radius, etc.
-
- Now go have your diapers changed.


If he could not fly through flak fire he would not become a fighter pilot in the first place. Shoting down a plane at landing can hardly be seen as an act of heroism. It's like chasing Cessnas with the guns loaded. To brag about it is even worse. Especially when knowing that the downed pilot had almost zero chances of survival.




<center> http://www.stormbirds.com/images/discussion-main.jpg </center>

Message Edited on 09/16/0312:07PM by Huckebein_FW

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 06:12 PM
Freycinet

Nice Troll and personal attack

You just did everything you just stated

You a$$hat





<center>http://www.gamespy.com/legacy/top10/movievillains/hal9000.jpg </center>

Message Edited on 09/17/0301:15AM by Heuristic_ALgor

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 06:19 PM
Huckebein_FW wrote:
- It's like chasing Cessnas with the guns
- loaded. To brag about it is even worse.

lmao /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
Poor recollection and fragmented documentation leads to tales of bravery and silly allegory.

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 06:41 PM
Huckebein_FW wrote:

- If he could not fly through flak fire he would not
- become a fighter pilot in the first place.

Yeah, that's easy for you to say. When was the last time you did it for real?

Shoting
- down a plane at landing can hardly be seen as an act
- of heroism. It's like chasing Cessnas with the guns
- loaded. To brag about it is even worse. Especially
- when knowing that the downed pilot had almost zero
- chances of survival.

And how else should it be done? Let's see. Okay, planes line up opposite each other. Now, when the girl in the back of the Dornier drops the flag, start dogfighting. Yeah, that'll show which is der real uber plane. I think the actual point of it all was to shoot them down no matter how that got done. It was an added benefit if you happened to kill the guy flying it in the process.

And hey, weren't you the one who said that the 262 was "ruling the skies" at that time? So how else were they to be shot down, since they couldn't be shot down in combat.
Oh yeah, that's right. We've already had accounts of them actually being shot down in combat. Never mind. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 06:45 PM
And hey, weren't you the one who said that the 262
- was "ruling the skies" at that time? So how else
- were they to be shot down, since they couldn't be
- shot down in combat.
- Oh yeah, that's right. We've already had accounts
- of them actually being shot down in combat. Never
- mind.


Yes, sure there were 10 or so Me-262 downed by fighters in combat. For 700 planes lost.


<center> http://www.stormbirds.com/images/discussion-main.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 07:11 PM
A little off topic but have a look at this...

http://www.stormbirds.com/project/index.html

Maybe when we all grow up we'll have one of these!


Regarding the 262 from the other side Luftwaffe General Adolf Galland feelings towards Hitlers misuse of the bomber and reasons for so many losses are described here.

http://history1900s.about.com/library/prm/blgalland4.htm

Makes you think if Germany had called for a Jet fighter and pilots had been trained to use the 262 as an interceptor rather than bomber what would have really happened?

A few accounts I have read concerning the German pilots point of view was because the target was approaching so fast there gut reaction was to slow the plane down.

Naturally resulting in interception by either the allied bombers gunners or escort fighters.

Despite that the Allied pilots learnt to kill 262's as they looped back to regain there target due to it's huge turning circle!



-

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 07:22 PM
fjuff79 wrote:
-
-
-
- Walter Nowotny was shot down while aproatching for
- a landing, not in a dogfight. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif -
-

There is some debat over what happened though the Americans make the claim.

One is it was his own Flak that finally got him. He was also damaged in an earlier combat and that the a/c burst into flame while attempting to land while being chased by American fighters.

So it could be Flak, a/c fire or fighter.



http://a1276.g.akamai.net/7/1276/734/625ed428e022ef/www.harley-davidson.com/PR/MOT/2004/Softail/images/DOM/img_Softail_FXST.jpg

http://www.redneckengineering.com/photogallery/photo23581/curves-done-03.jpg


"Only a dead 'chamber pot' is a good 'chamber pot'!"

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 07:24 PM
Huckebein_FW wrote:

- Yes, sure there were 10 or so Me-262 downed by
- fighters in combat. For 700 planes lost.

Which really doesn't mean anything. Concidering that there were about a hundred 262s that went on operations, that'd make about 7 planes per 262. Pretty good. Rule the skies? Nah. There were thousands of Allied bombers. THAT'S ruling the skies.

The point I tried to make was that they could be downed in combat. And, in fact, when they were taking off or landing they were in combat. You were the one who said that shooting them down was like shooting at Cesnas. So suddenly the vaunted 262 becomes like a Cesna because it gets caught low and slow? Please.

Oh yeah, and you still haven't told me when the last time was you flew through a hail of flak, tough guy.

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 07:35 PM
- Huckebein_FW wrote:
-
-- Yes, sure there were 10 or so Me-262 downed by
-- fighters in combat. For 700 planes lost.
-
-

How many Huckie?

Between March 18 and 31 1945 (14 days) there was 27 Me262s combat losses. Those are just the fighters, not included are the bomb carrying 262's or the Ar234's combat losses.

The first 262 was shot down in late Sept '44 and another a week or so later. The rate increased from then on.



http://a1276.g.akamai.net/7/1276/734/625ed428e022ef/www.harley-davidson.com/PR/MOT/2004/Softail/images/DOM/img_Softail_FXST.jpg

http://www.redneckengineering.com/photogallery/photo23581/curves-done-03.jpg


"Only a dead 'chamber pot' is a good 'chamber pot'!"

Message Edited on 09/16/0302:39PM by MiloMorai

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 07:36 PM
I salute the brave flyers from all the nationalities that fought in the Second Great War. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif I am proud to be an American but I feel ashamed whenever I see Europeans and Americans arguing on messageboards, shaming both continents in the process. It really is sad. We united to liberate the world from tyranny, and yet here we are, some sixty-odd years later bickering over things that we never saw in our own lifetimes. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 07:50 PM
Huckebein_FW wrote:
- -
- Yes, sure there were 10 or so Me-262 downed by
- fighters in combat. For 700 planes lost.
-
-
Sources please?

Every source I check shows over 100 ME-262's shot down by enemy aircraft.

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 08:23 PM
Here is a link to Me-262 losses from the www.stormbirds.com (http://www.stormbirds.com) website:



http://www.stormbirds.com/werknummer/db.cgi?db=default&uid=default&WerkNummer=&Model=&Factory=&Date=&Unit=&Pilot=&Factory_Code=&Unit_Code=&Callsign=&References=&keyword=shot+down&sb=---&so=ascend&mh=25&view_records=Search

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 08:40 PM
On topic note: I'm one of those guys who gets most of his info in between commercials, but common sense tells me I'd want one of those Jet thingies if I could have gotten one. I mean you'd have to figure the engineers would figure out the nitty problems in a year or so, but meanwhile if I get into trouble I can fly 500 mph level flight or faster, and I like that a lot. So I agree with Galland: start making a lot of these evil looking things even if we have to melt down Goerings belt buckle to do it.

Off topic note: I know how you feel, but I guess both sides of the great atlantic divide need to blow off steam. Wish it weren't so but I think the cultural divide is here to stay and is the end product of the groovy fact that we suddenly have all of this unfiltered contact. My guess is we'll get it together, someday, and together, take on the real common enemies of all forums: noobs and trolls http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 08:55 PM
Zyzbot wrote:
- Every source I check shows over 100 ME-262's shot
- down by enemy aircraft.
-

AFAIK, about 100 Me-262s (a handfull more perhaps) from all units were shot down in combat, for 150 air kills scored (these are not claims but the results of a comparison of allied and german records, there were, AFAIK, a little more than 200 claims).

About Nowotny's death, there has been as many different versions of his death as people who wrote about it : shot down by Mustangs (three different pilots were credited by one or another writer for that kill), accident (failure of an engine), shot down by his own flak,...and this having shot down one B-17 and one, two, or no Mustangs in his last fight according to the various writers.

A honest statement would be to say that nobody knows exactly what happened.

The allied pilots were very impressed by the first Me-262s, they met and you have a good example of these reactions in Clostermann's "Big Show" or in a recently published interview of Warren Schrader (ex-Tempest and Meteor pilot who tested the Me-262 after the war), but as Ethell and Price wrote it "the margin of superiority of the Me-262 over allied aircrafts such as the P-51 was too small for the limited numbers of Me-262 available to significantly change the situation of the air war".

Apart from that, it's worth noting the Me-262 was exclusively used in the West, only a handfull being used as recon aircraft against the soviets for a short time and a few ones met over germany, AFAIK at least one soviet plane (a Po-2) was shot down by jets, and at least two jets were shot down by soviet fighters (one by Kozhedub in his La-7, and one by a Yak-3).

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 09:15 PM
Huckebein_FW wrote:
- If he could not fly through flak fire he would not
- become a fighter pilot in the first place. Shoting
- down a plane at landing can hardly be seen as an act
- of heroism. It's like chasing Cessnas with the guns
- loaded. To brag about it is even worse. Especially
- when knowing that the downed pilot had almost zero
- chances of survival.

You just showed that you know nothing of WWII aerial combat, which is interesting, since you pass yourself off as some kind of authority.

Going for the German planes landing at their extremely heavily defended bases was indeed considered the most death-defying and brave assignment an allied fighter pilot could take.

From your seemingly extensive reading about German air combat in WWII one should think you knew a thing or two about dishonourable conduct and mass murder, but that seems to not be the case.

Freycinet
<center>
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<center>My Il-2 web-site:</center><center><BIG>"Za Rodinu!"</BIG> (http://perso.wanadoo.fr/delfin/SD/2001/flight/il-2/index.htm)</center>

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 09:24 PM
Zyzbot that link is very much a work in progress, they are just trying to gather data. There are 1600 entries in that list, this number is bigger than the total number of Me-262 produced, much bigger than the number of aircrafts delivered and even more so bigger than aircrafts flown.

Me-262 units claims:
Stab & III./JG7=427
I.& II./JG7=80
IV./JG7=30
III./EJG2=25
JV44=56
Ekdo Nowotny=35
10/NJG11=50
I./KG(J)51=5
I./KG(J)54=50
Ekdo 262=25
Ekdo Lechfeld=3

Here's a list of Me-262 aces:

http://www.luftwaffe.cz/dusen.html

and the sources for the list:

http://www.luftwaffe.cz/sources.html


<center> http://www.stormbirds.com/images/discussion-main.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 09:28 PM
Freycinet wrote:
- From your seemingly extensive reading about German
- air combat in WWII one should think you knew a thing
- or two about dishonourable conduct and mass murder,
- but that seems to not be the case.

All politicians, Axis or Allied, ordered atrocious mass murders during ww2.


<center> http://www.stormbirds.com/images/discussion-main.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 09:32 PM
GOULIES AND GHOSTIES.

Laddie Lucas returning one dark, moonless night from a patrol saw an ominous-looking light swinging in on the port quarter in a very fast curving attack from 7o'clock on the same level. It could only be a jet nothing else would be going at that speed. After taking evasive action he returned to base and reported to intelligence, "They are using the 262 at night".
The reaction. "He's not. In daylight yes;but not at night". Reaction from 2nd tactical airforce. "Rubbish".
Now we know that this beautiful aircraft was used at night. A staffel of Me262 under the command of Kurt Welter. Based on the Lubeck-Hamburg autobahn.

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 09:34 PM
mike_espo wrote:
- Not all of us are ultrapatriotic. I am an American
- and I love this country. I just visited Italy for
- the first time last week and its a great country. I
- was also in Germany and I have to say that the
- cultures are different than in the USA but European
- cultures have alot to offer and we Americans can
- learn a thing of two from the europeans. For one
- thing, our coffee sucks compared to that in Italia.
-
-

You just dont know where to get your coffee. Come to New Orleans, I'll buy you a cup. just make it around Xmas, thats the next time i'll be home. You are right though, most coffe here does suck.


Message Edited on 09/16/0303:35PM by Supr

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 09:36 PM
Freycinet wrote:
-
- Huckebein_FW wrote:
--If he could not fly through flak fire he would not
-- become a fighter pilot in the first place. Shoting
-- down a plane at landing can hardly be seen as an act
-- of heroism. It's like chasing Cessnas with the guns
-- loaded. To brag about it is even worse. Especially
-- when knowing that the downed pilot had almost zero
-- chances of survival.
-
- You just showed that you know nothing of WWII aerial
- combat, which is interesting, since you pass
- yourself off as some kind of authority.
-
- Going for the German planes landing at their
- extremely heavily defended bases was indeed
- considered the most death-defying and brave
- assignment an allied fighter pilot could take.
-
- From your seemingly extensive reading about German
- air combat in WWII one should think you knew a thing
- or two about dishonourable conduct and mass murder,
- but that seems to not be the case.
-
- Freycinet
- <center>
- <img
- src="http://perso.wanadoo.fr/delfin/SD/2001/flight
- /spitbf109/ellehammer-crop-for-il2-forum-reduced.j
- pg" ALT="First Heavier-than-Air Flight in Europe, by
- J.C.H. Ellehammer, Danish Aviation Pioneer (Sep. 12,
- 1906)"></center>
- <center>My Il-2 web-site:</center><center><a
- href="http://perso.wanadoo.fr/delfin/SD/2001/fligh
- t/il-2/index.htm"><BIG>"Za
- Rodinu!"</BIG></a></center>

And besides from what Freycinet wrote - after all it was about kicking the Nazis' a$$, not about some knight crap some ppl try to make up all the time cause "their heroes" fought for "pretty bad" guys, you know Huck...



=38=OIAE

47|FC=-

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 09:40 PM
RAF test pilot Eric Brown:


"...it was in my view unquestionably the foremost warplane of it's day."



http://www.warbirdpictures.com/LCBW/Me262-44.jpg





<center><img src= "http://www.luftwaffepics.com/LCBW4/FW190-A0-52.jpg" height=215 width=365>

<center>"We are now in a position of inferiority...There is no doubt in my mind, nor in the minds of my fighter pilots, that the FW190 is the best all-round fighter in the world today."

Sholto Douglas, 17 July 1942

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 09:50 PM
'Johnnie' Johnson says this about when he met a Me 262 for the first time:

Kenway had told us that the jets were
active over Holland, but although we scanned the skies we
could see nothing of them. Suddenly, without warning,an
enemy jet appeared about one hundred yards ahead of our
Spitfires. The pilot must have seen our formation, since he
shot up from below and climbed away at a high speed.
Already he was out of cannon range, and the few rounds I
sent after him were more an angry gesture at our impotence
than anything else. As he soared into the darkening, eastern
sky, he added insult to injury by carrying out a perfect, up-
ward roll. We were at a loss to know why the enemy pilot
did not attack one of our Spitfires, unless he had already
used all his ammunition. Later that evening Dal Russel
phoned to say that some of his boys had shot down a 262.
This was the first time that this type of enemy aircraft had
been destroyed, and Dal and his wing were celebrating the
event. It was a good thing; but it was an ominous sign that
the destruction of a single aircraft should receive such
acclaim.


From 'Wing Leader' by Johnson himself, ISBN 0-907579 13 2.



-------------------------------------

In January 1945 German officials from the Ministry of Armaments assessed what might have been produced in 1944 without the bombing. They estimated that German industry turned out 35% fewer tanks, 31% fewer aircraft and 42% fewer lorries than would have been possible otherwise.All the officials interviewed (after the war) stated that bombing was the factor responsible for the declining gains from rationalisation and for the eventual collapse of the economic structure after January 1945

Professor R.J. Overy, 'War and Economy in the Third Reich'

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 09:53 PM
Huckebein_FW wrote:
- All politicians, Axis or Allied, ordered atrocious
- mass murders during ww2.

Classic neo-nazi revisionist tactic. "Let's relativise the atrocities of Nazi-Germany by saying that all sides did more or less the same".

Sorry Huck, you won't be allowed to pull that one.

Auschwitz, Dachau, Bergen-Belsen, Sobibor and the countless other death camps in the Nazi empire speak for themselves.

Do NOT try to say that all sides were the same in WWII.

Freycinet
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XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 10:00 PM
Freycinet wrote:
-
- Huckebein_FW wrote:
-- All politicians, Axis or Allied, ordered atrocious
-- mass murders during ww2.
-
- Classic neo-nazi revisionist tactic. "Let's
- relativise the atrocities of Nazi-Germany by saying
- that all sides did more or less the same".
-
- Sorry Huck, you won't be allowed to pull that one.
-
- Auschwitz, Dachau, Bergen-Belsen, Sobibor and the
- countless other death camps in the Nazi empire speak
- for themselves.
-
- Do NOT try to say that all sides were the same in
- WWII.
-
- Freycinet

On the whole, I agree with you but Huck was talking, correct me if I'm wrong, about the air war, and though no one can say both sides were the same in WWII, in the air, the germans weren't worse than the allies.

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 10:47 PM
nicli wrote:
- On the whole, I agree with you but Huck was talking,
- correct me if I'm wrong, about the air war, and
- though no one can say both sides were the same in
- WWII, in the air, the germans weren't worse than the
- allies.

The Germans started the WWII terror bombardments of innocent civilians, first at Guernica, then Warsaw, Rotterdam, Coventry, London, etc., etc., etc., etc....

When the (thoroughly nazified) Luftwaffe carried out the first terror bombardments of WWII the Royal Air Force responded by leaflet raids over Berlin, warning the Germans not to continue with these attacks on civilians.

But, Hitler's Luftwaffe continued their terror tactics from Spain, Poland and the Netherlands in the skies over Britain.

The RAF bomber force that later pulverized much of Germanys cities was the British response to the Luftwaffe raids that aimed to obliterate England's cities in 1940-41.

nicli, you have to see the air war in the historical perspective, where cause and effect are essential. Had there been no Nazi terror bombardments at the outset of the war Dresden probably wouldn't have happened.

You can't ask any nation fighting a life and death struggle to refrain from the means - however gruesome - that the enemy has introduced to the struggle.

Germany sowed and then reaped the harvest.





Freycinet
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XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 11:54 PM
Great picture FW190fan


FW190fan wrote:
- RAF test pilot Eric Brown:
-
- "...it was in my view unquestionably the foremost
- warplane of it's day."
-

I come to second that opinion when I read about the 262. But then the circumstances it was developed and flew under, those being late-war Germany, gave it more achilles-heels than a centapeed. Something that is not easily recreated in a flightsim. How does one model fuelshortage without enraging the sim community? Or a desillusioned and drunk groundcrew?

Another thing. Some time back a stumbled across a great site with a feature on one ME-163 "Komet" pilot, but now I've forgotten the name. Anyone? There might also be some reactions from the crews it was sent up to defeat.

XyZspineZyX
09-16-2003, 11:55 PM
MiloMorai wrote:
-
-- Huckebein_FW wrote:
--
--- Yes, sure there were 10 or so Me-262 downed by
--- fighters in combat. For 700 planes lost.
--
--
-
- How many Huckie?
-
- Between March 18 and 31 1945 (14 days) there was 27
- Me262s combat losses. Those are just the fighters,
- not included are the bomb carrying 262's or the
- Ar234's combat losses.

The link to the stormbirds.com data base suggests that far more than "10 or so" Me-262s were shot down, although I haven't bothered to plod through all the pages. I suspect that the figure of "700 planes lost" (to Me-262s) claimed by Huck will turn out to be equally imaginative.

Presumably post-war analysis managed to square claims against actual losses and recover a reasonably accurate kill:loss record for the Me-262. Given the types well-know weaknesses I suspect the ratio will turn out to be little better than 1.5:1 and perhaps even less than 1:1, rather than Hucks 70:1 (!) ratio claimed above. Of course, I'm willing to be corrected if reliable data shows otherwise.

Regardless, it would be an interesting exercise to establish some numbers grounded in data rather than speculation. Does anyone have some real data to contribute on verified Me-262 kills?

Reliable stats for losses really ought to be linked into an FAQ so that this sort of discussion doesn't have to reinvent the wheel every six months.

Regards,

RocketDog.







Message Edited on 09/16/0310:58PM by RocketDog

XyZspineZyX
09-17-2003, 12:08 AM
Well, very interesting extra info on Allied pilots reaction to the Jets. Those that stayed on topic, It`s really good stuff. I thankyou! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

The rest of you, take the politics elsewhere please. It`s not why I put up this thread...



"Tis better to work towards an Impossible Good, rather than a Possible Evil."

SeaFireLIV.
(Spitfire & Escape Whiner Member).

XyZspineZyX
09-17-2003, 12:10 AM
Seems to be hard to get consistent data on this subject.

One source that I know quotes the 8th Air Force losses to Me-262 aircraft as 52 bombers and 10 fighters from August 1944 to may 1945.

Another source says 100 Me-262's were lost in combat versus 150 kills.

Still another source lists 140 USAF Me-262 kills. I have no sources for RAF Me-262 claims.

Leaves me guessing...

XyZspineZyX
09-17-2003, 12:21 AM
Geez whiz. Seafire asked how pilots reacted to German jets. In response, I said this, AND ONLY THIS:

"The first time I ever saw a jet, I shot it down." - Chuck Yeager.

..and..

"Seafire, are you at all interested in this subject?"



To this, the following responses:

"Now SkyChimp, that`s very dramatic and very American, but it tells me nothing. I want to know the EXPERIENCES. NOT bravado." -Seafire

"pffft" -Heuristic_ALgor

"I bet most of the German aces would say something similer about the P-51, P-38 and P-47. I think the origanal poster was asking what the general reactions were not those of the hotshots." - Maj_Death



Then, the "nationalist" lable is applied!

"Seafire, did you expect another answer, from ultra patriotic Americans ?" -Boandlgramer



Then Seafire, in typical fashion, makes this assertion:

"You see, Skychimp, you shouldn`t jump to conclusions about anti-Americanism. Yours preconceived ideas meant that you completely missed the point. And leapt to unwarranted accusations."



Then Christos_swc, obviously unsure of himself, adds:

"A 262 could not be taken on by any piston engined fighter even though Skychimp would have you believe that certain supermen could do this flying P-47s while chewing tobacco looking unimpressed while they brought down annoying-sounding pregnant looking German piles of smoking crap.



Then Boandlgramer reapplies himself:

"but his post (chimp ) was so typical for him."



It goes on and on. All that, from only 2 sentences.

==========================================


/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

God damn German-plane fan-boys. You guys are a riot. Seafire started this entire thread to get worshipping comments about the Luftwaffe. Well, girlies, not every Allied fighter pilot was afraid of the German jets.

So, if you can't take the good with the bad, don't ask the question.



Regards,

SkyChimp

http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/NAA_logo.jpg


Message Edited on 09/17/0304:57AM by SkyChimp

XyZspineZyX
09-17-2003, 12:23 AM
Huckebein_FW wrote:
- Every two days a noob drops in here to spread his
- "facts" about Me-262 (taken from some TV
- documentary).
-
- Me-262 was rulling the skies at that time.

Tell that to the occupants of the German factories levelled by allied bombing.





Regards,

SkyChimp

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XyZspineZyX
09-17-2003, 12:24 AM
Huckebein_FW wrote:

- To brag about it is even worse. Especially
- when knowing that the downed pilot had almost zero
- chances of survival.


Well, it certainly wasn't as brave as machine-gunning prisoners at Malmady. But we took what we could get.

Regards,

SkyChimp

http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/NAA_logo.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-17-2003, 12:26 AM
Afreaka wrote:
- - Another thing. Some time back a stumbled across a
- great site with a feature on one ME-163 "Komet"
- pilot, but now I've forgotten the name. Anyone?
- There might also be some reactions from the crews it
- was sent up to defeat.
-
-

Here is the reaction to seeing the Me-163 for the first time in June 1944:

" I encountered two Me-163s. My 8 P-51's were furnishing close escort for a combat wing of B-17s, and we were flying south at 25,000 feet when one of my pilots called two contrails at six o'clock high, some 5 miles back at 32,000 feet.

" I identified them immediately as jet-propelled aircraft.Their contrails could not be mistaken and looked very denseand white, somewhat like an elongated cumulus cloud that was some three-quartes of a mile in length. My section turned 180 degrees back toward the enemy fighters, which included two aircraft with jets turned onand three in a glide without jets operating at the moment.

"The two I had spotted made diving turns to the left in close formation and feinted towards the bombers at six o'clock, cuttign off their jets as they turned. Our flight turned for a head on pass to get between them and rear of the bomber formation. While still 3,000 yards from the bombers, they turned into us and left the bombers alone. In this turn they banked about 80 degrees ,but their tcourse changed only about 20 degrees. Their turn radius was very large, but their rate of roll appeared excellent. Thier speed I estimated was 500 to 600 miles per hour. Both planes passed under us, 1,000 feet below, while still in close formation.

"One continued down in a 45 degree dive , the other climbed up into the sun very steeply, and I lost him. Then I looked back at the one in a dive and saw he was 5 miles away at 10,000 feet. Other members of my flight reported that the one that had gone up into the sun used his jet in short bursts as though it was blowing smoke rings. These pilots appeared very experienced but not aggressive. maybe they were just on trial flights."

Col A. P. Tacon, Jr
Commanding officer 359th Fighter group

XyZspineZyX
09-17-2003, 12:28 AM
Maj_Death wrote:
-
- SkyChimp wrote:
-- "The first time I ever saw a jet, I shot it down." -
-- Chuck Yeager.
--
-- Regards,
--
-- SkyChimp
-
- I bet most of the German aces would say something
- similer about the P-51, P-38 and P-47. I think the
- origanal poster was asking what the general
- reactions were not those of the hotshots.
-
LOL. Death have you seen the kill to death ratios for the P-47 and the P-51? I didnt think so. So here let me post them for you.
P-51=11 to 1 kill/death
P-47=4.6 to 1 kill/death
Say what you want but these are the facts and they are undisputed. Carry on.

XyZspineZyX
09-17-2003, 12:30 AM
Huckebein_FW wrote:

- Yes, sure there were 10 or so Me-262 downed by
- fighters in combat. For 700 planes lost.


Remember in the F7F thread I said Huck's statement about Grumman airframe weakness was his dumbest comment ever? I was wrong.

Well, Huck. Where did you glean this tidbit? I'd be interested to know.

There were approximately 100 Me-262 shot down in air-to-air combar. Versus, liberally, about 240 losses.

70:1....../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


Regards,

SkyChimp

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XyZspineZyX
09-17-2003, 12:35 AM
Huckebein_FW wrote:

- All politicians, Axis or Allied, ordered atrocious
- mass murders during ww2.

Are the Nazis your heros Huck? Because if they aren't, you certainly give that impression.




Regards,

SkyChimp

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XyZspineZyX
09-17-2003, 12:36 AM
Freycinet wrote:

- Germany sowed and then reaped the harvest.


Amen.

Regards,

SkyChimp

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XyZspineZyX
09-17-2003, 12:56 AM
SkyChimp wrote:
-
- Huckebein_FW wrote:
-
-- All politicians, Axis or Allied, ordered atrocious
-- mass murders during ww2.
-
- Are the Nazis your heros Huck? Because if they
- aren't, you certainly give that impression.
-
-
-
-
-
-
- Regards,
-
- SkyChimp
-
<img
- src="http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/NAA_logo.
- jpg">
-

Hey stay with the topic you morons! thats why we lost the pilots lounge you ignorant fools

XyZspineZyX
09-17-2003, 01:07 AM
I hate to burst any bubbles but on Goering's orders the LW was rather chivalrous.That is compared to the American orders to shoot at jet pilots that were in parachutes.London civilians were bombed by mistake and from what I've read the LW's high command was furious it was then that Churchill "ordered" the bombing of berlin.Rotterdam was a mistake because some of the bombers couldn't see the flares that the inf were shooting.As far as Warsaw I've read that it was and wasn't bombed(I'm talking nonmilitary targets).As far as the 262 the hitler idea for a bomber could not have delayed it.All they did was put hard points on the plane.The real reason it was so late was because of the engine development.The statement someone made about german manufacturing is totally misleading.In 1944 the germans built substancially more than before but most of what they built sat because of no fuel.The other point that most people miss is that in 1943 daylight bombing was stopped in germany because of the loss rate it wasn't until the mustang came along that long range missions were again done.The allied bombing offensive came close several times to dropping germany flat but because they didn't believe that the germans could rebuild as fast as they did.The bombing campaign went to new targets before they had done enough damage(2 examples are ball bearings and synthetic oil both times the bombing campaign was switched before the knockout could be delivered).As far as the country bashing thing I'm an American but I do believe that a german 163 broke the sound barrier way before Mr Yeager.Thanks for reading happy arguing

XyZspineZyX
09-17-2003, 01:19 AM
James Finnegan. P-47 pilot, 50th Fighter Group

Finnegan describes shooting down Adolf Galland's Me 262 in April 1945


I was leading the top flight cover of P-47s that was escorting B-26s to their target. As I gazed down, I saw two objects come zipping through the formation and two bombers blew up immediately. I watched the two objects go through the bomber formation and thought "That can't be a prop job, it's got to be one of those 262 jets". I was at about 13,000 feet and estimated them to be at about 9-10,000. They were climbing and I pulled a split-S towards the one that turned left and almost ended up right on top of him, about 75 yards away. I gave a three second burst and saw strikes on the right hand engine and wing root. I was going so fast I went right through everything and guessed my speed at about 550 mph. I recorded it as a probable. I was flying a D-model Thunderbolt with a bubble canopy, a natural metal finish and a black nose. The Me 262 had a green and brown mottled camouflage with some specks of yellow. That turned out to be my last flight in a P-47. My kills for the war were an Me 109 and a Fw 190, in addition to the Me 262.

Adolf Galland, describing the same incident:


I was shot down by a Republic P-47D flown by a man named James Finnegan,/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif whom I met some years later and we became friends. We were intercepting bombers near Neuberg. I was leading a flight and I attacked from astern. My rockets did not fire but I poured 30 mm cannon shells into one bomber which fell in flames and flew right through the formation, hitting another. I could not tell if that bomber was finished off, so I banked around for another run, all the while my jet was receiving hits from the bomber's defensive fire. Suddenly my instrument panel disintegrated, my canopy was shattered and my right knee was struck. I was losing power and was in great pain. I thought about parachuting out but realized that might be dangerous as some of our pilots had been strafed upon exiting their jets. I flew for the deck and headed for this field at the air base, which was under attack. I cut the power to my good engine and thumped across the field. My nose wheel had been flattened, smoke was pouring from the plane. I climbed out to get away in case it should explode, only to find aircraft dropping bombs and firing rockets at me. Well, our mission netted five victories total and none of the pilots were killed.

And i suppose there are still those that think a P-47 wasn't an effective fighter aircraft. lol

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XyZspineZyX
09-17-2003, 01:27 AM
PAk88mm wrote:

- Hey stay with the topic you morons! thats why we
- lost the pilots lounge you ignorant fools


Go play in CWOS.

Regards,

SkyChimp

http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/NAA_logo.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-17-2003, 02:00 AM
"I do believe that a german 163 broke the sound barrier way before Mr Yeager

I read that the Me 163 had a closing dive speed of about 1300 km/h, or 808 mi/h. If so, you would be right.

***************************************

"Oh no, the V-1 Doodlebug is heading for our bunghole!" ---David

"...I possess the wings of faith. Though heavy on my shoulder (no measurement can prove their weight), still a burden are they not to me. I am the challenger of gravity." ---Emperor

XyZspineZyX
09-17-2003, 02:07 AM
According to "German Aircraft of the Second World War" (Putnam, Smith and Kay), the Me-163 had a critial mach of .82. That's too low to for it to achieve supersonic flight even at terminal mach.

Regards,

SkyChimp

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XyZspineZyX
09-17-2003, 02:12 AM
Tia Zyzbot

"...These pilots appeared very experienced but not aggressive. maybe they were just on trial flights." /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Oh yes and I rediscovered the site I was looking for http://homepage.ntlworld.com/andrew.walker6/komet/flight/flight1.htm

Almost nothing but trial flights /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-17-2003, 02:14 AM
nt = No Text

XyZspineZyX
09-17-2003, 02:28 AM
Snootles wrote:
- "I do believe that a german 163 broke the sound
- barrier way before Mr Yeager
-
- I read that the Me 163 had a closing dive speed of
- about 1300 km/h, or 808 mi/h. If so, you would be
- right.
-
-

I doubt that the Me-163 could do that:


From the book "Rocket fighter" by Mano Zeigler;

"...On reaching 8,000 meters, Rosle found himself only two hundred meters away from the Lightnings, and keeping his eyes on the enemy, he leveled off. A few seconds later one of the Lightnings was squarely in his gunsight. Then without any warning, his Komet jerked up almost vertically, shook violently and tehn went into a wild dive, the control column being yanked out of Rosle's hands. A quick glance at the airspeed indicator provided the answer to this erratic performance-- it stood at one thousand and fifty kilometers per hour! Rosle had inadvertantly exceded the Komet's compressiblity limitations.

Bott, who had been flying just behind him, fared no better.He had maintained the same speed as Rosle and, before he had realized what was happening, his aircraft had gone through the same box of tricks. Of course they had both reacted almost instantly by slamming back the thrust lever, but these unwanted maneuvers had already lost them so much altitude that the Lighnings had put too much distance between themselves and their intended attackers for a further attempt to intercept them..."

XyZspineZyX
09-17-2003, 02:47 AM
they were most likely blown away by their speed.

well my name was spelled wrong

XyZspineZyX
09-17-2003, 03:18 AM
Copperhead310th wrote:
- James Finnegan. P-47 pilot, 50th Fighter Group
-
- Finnegan describes shooting down Adolf Galland's Me
- 262 in April 1945
-
-
- I was leading the top flight cover of P-47s that was
- escorting B-26s to their target. As I gazed down, I
- saw two objects come zipping through the formation
- and two bombers blew up immediately. I watched the
- two objects go through the bomber formation and
- thought "That can't be a prop job, it's got to be
- one of those 262 jets". I was at about 13,000 feet
- and estimated them to be at about 9-10,000. They
- were climbing and I pulled a split-S towards the one
- that turned left and almost ended up right on top of
- him, about 75 yards away. I gave a three second
- burst and saw strikes on the right hand engine and
- wing root. I was going so fast I went right through
- everything and guessed my speed at about 550 mph. I
- recorded it as a probable. I was flying a D-model
- Thunderbolt with a bubble canopy, a natural metal
- finish and a black nose. The Me 262 had a green and
- brown mottled camouflage with some specks of yellow.
- That turned out to be my last flight in a P-47. My
- kills for the war were an Me 109 and a Fw 190, in
- addition to the Me 262.
-
- Adolf Galland, describing the same incident:
-
-
- I was shot down by a Republic P-47D flown by a man
- named James Finnegan,/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif whom I met some years later and
- we became friends. We were intercepting bombers near
- Neuberg. I was leading a flight and I attacked from
- astern. My rockets did not fire but I poured 30 mm
- cannon shells into one bomber which fell in flames
- and flew right through the formation, hitting
- another. I could not tell if that bomber was
- finished off, so I banked around for another run,
- all the while my jet was receiving hits from the
- bomber's defensive fire. Suddenly my instrument
- panel disintegrated, my canopy was shattered and my
- right knee was struck. I was losing power and was in
- great pain. I thought about parachuting out but
- realized that might be dangerous as some of our
- pilots had been strafed upon exiting their jets. I
- flew for the deck and headed for this field at the
- air base, which was under attack. I cut the power to
- my good engine and thumped across the field. My nose
- wheel had been flattened, smoke was pouring from the
- plane. I climbed out to get away in case it should
- explode, only to find aircraft dropping bombs and
- firing rockets at me. Well, our mission netted five
- victories total and none of the pilots were killed.
-
-
- And i suppose there are still those that think a
- P-47 wasn't an effective fighter aircraft. lol
-
- <
Copperhead, do you know anywhere that I could find reading material on their meeting after the war?

Hard to imagine that 2 men at war, in a world full of hate could become friends. If the were regulers at this site, they most likly would have felt compelled to continue to hate each other. Or at the very least argue and snip away at each other because of where each was born.

Its a game guys, I refuse to fight wars started by are Grandfathers and great grandfathers. If it makes you feel better to trash me because a fluke of fate caused me to be born American feel free but its realy going to burn your a$$ to know that I ain't going to hate you back. I will not discredit all you post because I have a unreasoning, bitter hatred for you and all that I PERCIEVE you to stand for.

Now you all go have a great day, unless you've made other plans., peace

XyZspineZyX
09-17-2003, 04:01 AM
J.D.Carter wrote:
Copperhead, do you know anywhere that I could
- find reading material on their meeting after the
- war?

Umm no man afrad not. i got that and a bunch more p-47 pilot stories off if a web site. and now i cant find which one.

i do know that there was a reunion of WWII USAAF pilots here in montgomery at Maxwell AFB's Air University a few years back and the MAxwell AFB CO flew some of the German Pilots over for it. would have loved to had been there for that one (it's only 4 miles from me). I've heard they got along quite well.

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XyZspineZyX
09-17-2003, 04:06 AM
SkyChimp wrote:
- "The first time I ever saw a jet, I shot it down." -
- Chuck Yeager.
-
- Regards,
-
- SkyChimp

CLASSIC!


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XyZspineZyX
09-17-2003, 04:23 AM
I'm going to have to stick up for Skychimp on this one.

All he did was quote what Chuck Yeager SAID about his 1st encounter with a 262. that was the question.

"What were the first reactions of pilots who met the first German Jet Planes in combat?"

Chuck Yeager says the 1st time he saw one he shot it down.

MY opinion is this. IT WAS WAR PEOPLE. you werent there to have tea & crumpets with the enemy. if you saw one you KILLED him. this was not chuck yeager on HL killing a Virtual Me 262 it was the real deal. he was there to kill them and bring them down any way he could.
Same thing for the German pilots. They didn't play fair either. they weren't there to. they were there to kill the allies.

So what if Yeager killed a 262 on final. i'm sure the 262 would have shot him down given the chance.

lol what are you luft~winers gonna do? Kick Chuck Yeager from the server? lmfao/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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Message Edited on 09/16/0310:25PM by Copperhead310th

XyZspineZyX
09-17-2003, 04:26 AM
SkyChimp wrote:
-
- PAk88mm wrote:
-
-- Hey stay with the topic you morons! thats why we
-- lost the pilots lounge you ignorant fools
-
-
- Go play in CWOS.
-
- Regards,
-
- SkyChimp
-
<img
- src="http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/NAA_logo.
- jpg">
-

Want a cookie?

Regards,

Pak88mm

XyZspineZyX
09-17-2003, 05:01 AM
Boandlgramer wrote:
- bearcat, i like you too, no kidding./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
-
- but his post (chimp ) was so typical for him.
-
- be sure , i didn´t mean Chuck Y.
- yes i know , he shot down a me262.
-
- and also i know ,the messerschmitt 262 wasn´t a
- uberplane.
-
- but what plane is it ? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

That was not a comment from Skychimp. It used to be his sig. I have seen it several times in some of his posts. Most having nothing to do with the 262. Its meant to be in good humor. As far as reactions, I'm sure it was said to expect the new planes but, to actually see one was probably a bit of a shock. I'm sure the fighter pilots reacted well in most cases and did not fumble around to much. There were air to air kills by allied fighters but, they did prefer to attack them on the ground or when taking off and landing. Thats why JV44 was formed. They were to protect the 262's taking off and landing. They were not to pursue enemy aircraft. More flak guns were added around the bases because of the increasing attacks. The red and white stripes under the Doras were so the flak gunners could easily indentify them. The 262 could be and was shot down in combat. But I'm sure it scared the people that encountered it. I am beyond WW11. I admire the planes of that era regardless of country. They are machines. Appreciate the capabilities and shear good looks of them, and leave the politics at home.

...and once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward,
for there you have been and there you long to return.
~leonardo de vinci

XyZspineZyX
09-17-2003, 06:37 AM
may my post was an error /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Skychimp is like an innocent virgin. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

an ultra-innocent virgin. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif



http://www.bayern.de/Layout/wappen.gif

Bavaria is one of the oldest European states.
It dates back to about 500 A.D., when the Roman Empire was overcome by the onslaught of Germanic tribes. According to a widespread theory, the Bavarian tribe had descended from the Romans who remained in the country, the original Celtic population and the Germanic invaders.

Bavarian History : http://www.bayern.de/Bayern/Information/geschichteE.html#kap0

Message Edited on 09/17/0305:38AM by Boandlgramer

XyZspineZyX
09-17-2003, 07:06 AM
SkyChimp wrote:
-
- Huckebein_FW wrote:
-- Every two days a noob drops in here to spread his
-- "facts" about Me-262 (taken from some TV
-- documentary).
--
-- Me-262 was rulling the skies at that time.
-
- Tell that to the occupants of the German factories
- levelled by allied bombing.

I have "Websters".. I guess I need to pick up a copy of "Huckies" so I can understand this new definition of "RULLING"... Or maybe he sat on his 5 cent decoder ring and just got it all a$$hat backwards?

LOL!


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Zayets
09-17-2003, 07:49 AM
Where's Buzz?

Zayets out

http://www.arr.go.ro/iar81c.JPG

XyZspineZyX
09-17-2003, 09:00 AM
Talking about a Air kill being fair or not is stupid to say the least,air combat is like a knife fight the best way to win and not get stabed yourself is to sneak up behind your foe and ram that blade in his back.Simply put there is no room in war for fair.

No1RAAF_Pourshot


http://members.optusnet.com.au/~andycarroll68/mybaby.jpeg.JPG

Ride it like ya stole it.

Message Edited on 09/17/0310:56PM by pourshot

XyZspineZyX
09-17-2003, 10:13 AM
Heres a report from a 479th Mustang FG formation leader who was bounced by 15 262's from IIIrd Gruppe Fighter Geschwader 7 21st Feb 1945

"Bounce was directed at Red Flight, as squadron was making a shallow turn to the left from an easterly direction. Bounce came from 3 o'clock position at our level by four Me 262s flying the usual American formation, looking like P-52s with droptanks. Our Red Flight broke into jets but they crossed in front of our flight up and away. A second flight of four Me 262s flying in American combat formation then made a bounce from the rear, 6 o'clock high. Our flight turned into this second Me 262 flight and the Me 262s broke climbing up and away. At this time the first flight of Me 262s came back on us again above and from the rear. We broke into this flight and this kept up for three of four breaks, neither ourselves or Jerry being able to get set or close in for a shot. Each time we would break they would climb straight ahead out-distancing us. Within the Jerry flight the number four man, while turning, would fall behind and slightly above, so that it was necessary to take on this number four man or he would slice in on our tail if our Flight would take on the rest of the Jerry flight."

From what I have gathered, that was the first encounter with competently flown and operated Me 262's against equally well flown P-51's

Just some other things that happened when new allied a/c were made.........

Hermann Goering was reported to say he knew the war was lost when he saw Mustangs over Berlin.

I also read somewhere that an enemy fighter pilot(may be Japanese) was caught by surprise first time it saw a B-17. So much so that he misjudged the range and convergence needed for it.

MD_FuryFighter

XyZspineZyX
09-17-2003, 04:47 PM
Freycinet wrote:
- The RAF bomber force that later pulverized much of
- Germanys cities was the British response to the
- Luftwaffe raids that aimed to obliterate England's
- cities in 1940-41.
-

The single raid over Dresden killed as many civilians as the whole battle of Britain, and, "the others did it first" is never an argument to justify war crimes.

And one could remember the doctrine of strategic bombing of ennemy cities was pionneered by many at the same time in Europe, including some British.

- nicli, you have to see the air war in the historical
- perspective, where cause and effect are essential.
- Had there been no Nazi terror bombardments at the
- outset of the war Dresden probably wouldn't have
- happened.
-

The doctrine of obliteration of whole cities was established by the allies in order to destroy the ennemy's morale and their industries.

And even if there may have been, on the british side a psychlogical element of revenge, look at the american raids, e.g. on Tokyo...

An historical perspective could also say that Hitler rose to power because the Versailles treaty was unfair and because of the fear by right wing german businessmen of the leftist parties which made them finance the nazi party, but this cannot be an excuse or an explanation for what the nazis did...

As I said in my first post, I agreed with you on the point both sides couldn't be said to be the same but you already had the reasons in your first post, and these are not linked with air warfare : the concentration and extermination camps, the behavior towards civilians and prisonners of the german troops in the USSR and Poland, the behavior of the SS, the medical experiments,...

XyZspineZyX
09-17-2003, 06:00 PM
nicli wrote: nothing to do with Me262 vs allied pilot`s experiences...

Why is it that people must hijack these threads for other than the Title intended? People and their personal agendas. It`s so annoying.

Thnx for other people`s historical reports, such as MD_FuryFighter`s. Excellent! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif





"Tis better to work towards an Impossible Good, rather than a Possible Evil."

SeaFireLIV.
(Spitfire & Escape Whiner Member).

XyZspineZyX
09-17-2003, 06:45 PM
I know it's off topic but over the baltic the germans flew a 163 that was towed up.I read the pilots account years ago and from his account and the explanation of the author of the book the only explanation was that the pilot broke the speed barrier.I'ts been about 25 years so I have no idea of the book or author.But the rest of the book was factual and not trying to push the authors ideas.If anyone has any idea of what I'm talking about please let me have the info.

XyZspineZyX
09-17-2003, 10:39 PM
I'm a very patriotic american and I say the only reason any 262s were shot down in normal combat ( not vulching airfields ) was either because of a "surprise" from a Allied prop job diving down with lots of speed, like Galland's encounter. Or simply the 262 pilot was inexperienced and simply didn't fly it properly to take advantage of it's speed and energy. Some "noob" pilots were told not to try and turn fight the 262 against allied prop fighters and loose too much speed. But they often did anyway, with disastrous results. If the 262 pilots would have had the time to get good in them, and they had more 262's, the war would have been lengthened considerably. Plus more time to improve the engine reliability, almost forgot.

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin - 1755

XyZspineZyX
09-18-2003, 12:40 AM
I spent one hour reading all the thread, so expect a quite long post.

I suggest you to read "the first and the last", the biography of Adolf Galland, written by himself. It talks a lot about the 262 genesis, and about Galland's struggles to use it as a fighter, not as a bomber as Hitler wanted.

Some Galland's answers to questions I've read in this thread:
- He said that allied generals where very surprised to see that the 262,a natural born interceptor, was used as a bomber. They had the first confirm that "something new was flying" when it was reported that a Mosquito was shot down by a faster plane;
- He does'nt know how Nowotny was shot down. He saw him trying to land with one engine on fire, then crashing on the airfield. The only thing recoverable of him were the diamonds of his decorations...
- Galland's non-official comment to his test flight with the Schwalbe: "It was like an angel was pulling him"
- He really encountered James Finnegan after the war many times, and became friend of him; Galland was recognized by his own enemies as some kind of "gentlemen soldier" even during war;
- In his last mission with JV44, he was flying with 5 other 262, and his group claimed 6 victories. Allied officiers that interviewed him after capture said to Galland that they were flying against more than 600 bombers and many more escort fighters, and they downed more than 6 planes: he would'nt believe that there were only 6 jets in the air;
- Someone said that german airfields where so defended that trying to attack a plane landing was more dangerous than attacking it in the air. Probably this is not correct; knowing the problems of the jet while landing (it cannot disengage in that situation because of his bad acceleration) germans organized groups of prop-fighter to defend the jets while in landing phase;
- I don't know wich kill ratio did the 262 obtain in combat; but when counting destroyed 262 consider that only 300 where used in combat, 1100 more where built but destroyed on ground before flying and many combat-ready planes where destroyed by Germans in the last days of the war to avoid capture.

Just another consideration:

Huckebein_FW wrote:

- All politicians, Axis or Allied, ordered atrocious
- mass murders during ww2.

Ok, nazis where worst than allies, but it was a declared objective of allied headquarter (especially the British one) to destroy enemy population morale by bombing cities. Hamburg and Dresden where not military objectives, those cities where full of refugees because German did not expect a bombing on cities without factories and military objectives. As an answer, allied armed bombers with incendiary bombs, to kill as many people as they could in those ancient wooden built cities. When I saw Dresden, one year after German reunification, there were still ruins in the city center.

It can be justified in such a war, but this is atrocity.

XyZspineZyX
09-18-2003, 01:26 AM
SeaFireLIV wrote:
- nicli wrote: nothing to do with Me262 vs allied
- pilot`s experiences...
-
- Why is it that people must hijack these threads for
- other than the Title intended? People and their
- personal agendas. It`s so annoying.
-
- Thnx for other people`s historical reports, such as
- MD_FuryFighter`s. Excellent! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


You asked a question. I answered that question in the context it was asked.

Then YOU accused me of accusing you of anti-Americanism.

That was very odd /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif .

Regards,

SkyChimp

http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/NAA_logo.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-18-2003, 01:36 AM
FOO FIGHTER!

well my name was spelled wrong

XyZspineZyX
09-18-2003, 10:51 AM
I noticed a lot of you guys tend to talk about the 262 in terms of its capabilities as a fighter.
It was really a purpose built Bomber killer, it should have taken a further few years for the Germans to develope a purpose built Jet Fighter, but neccessity is the mother of invention, ( Allied Bombing Campaign) and the War did not last long enough for that to happen.

Mind you the 262 was a good compromise, purely as a bomber killer it had the concentrated fire power, and out right speed to evade the fighter escort to continue attacking the bomber formations.

With the introduction of the B-17 into FB, you will certainly be able to recreate realistic Scenarios with the B-17 being escorted by the Mustang.
With the 262 attacking the bombers in long sweeping passes and the P-51s bieng surprised by the fast appraoch of the jet ( insufficent time to try and get into favourable position to defend)
Jet shoots down bomber sweeps away, fighter escort trys to give chase, perhaps while the remainder of the 262s butcher the Bomber formation, or fighter escort returns to protect bombers only to have another 262 sweeping past from another direction and BOOM down goes another B-17.

Yes very realistic

S!