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XyZspineZyX
08-19-2003, 07:47 PM
It takes alot of time to do thorough testing of the radiators and I simply don't have time, so if everyone could take an hour to test a plane and submit a bug report to Oleg if its radiator is bugged then maybe they can all get fixed.

Of the 4 planes I have tested thoroughly (FW190A-4, Bf109K-4, LA7, Yak3) only 1 (Yak3) seems to work properly. The other 3 seem bugged, but not all the same way.

I will outline a quick procedure to use which will at least tell if it is obviously bugged (this shouldn't take too long, half an hour). This procedure is not meant to make a precise quantitative analysis of the radiators function, but rather to see if it is obviously bugged or not. I encourage you to make a more thorough investigation.

I will start with the Yak3, as it's radiator seems to work, and it should get you understanding what to expect.

All testing is done with full difficulty on, except cockpit is off (for TAS and radar altimiter) and wind/turbulence is off.

Use the QMB (I have not yet tested any online, that needs to be done as well) and Crimea map (much of what I specify doesn't really matter, but you may get different numbers on different maps. The numbers themselves don't really matter though, as we are just testing for basic radiator functionality) starting at 1000m.

Leave prop pitch, mixture and radiator setting untouched (do not cycle the radiator through any settings as that could clear the bug if the plane you are testing is bugged a certain way). The throttle and the radiator are the only CEM adjustments that will be made (once again do not touch the radiator setting to begin with).

Trim the plane and/or set auto level to get the plane at a relatively constant altitude. Set full throttle (WEP engaged if applicable) and wait for overheat. Then proceed to determine what the maximum throttle setting is at which the plane will not overheat (this may take longer than you think as oil temperature takes longer to rise than coolant and either one can cause overheat). For the Yak3 I got 101% throttle at 650m and 562kph. At 102% it overheats.

Leave it at this throttle setting (101% for the Yak3) for awhile. Now raise it 1% higher (102% for the Yak3) and get ready. The moment the overheat message appears open the radiator.

What you expect to see is that the overheat message will go away and the plane will slow down. This is exactly what happened with the Yak3.

With the 109K-4 I was at 88% throttle 500kph 500m altitude. I switched to 89% throttle and opened radiator the moment the overheat message appeared. No cooling effect at all.

LA7 was same story, opening the radiator the moment I got the overheat message had no cooling effect at all.

FW190A-4 was sort of different. It never overheated to begin with, but when I set the radiator to "closed" (it started in the "auto/closed" position) it overheated. But when I went back to "auto/closed" it slowed way down and stayed slow even after the engine cooled (speed in "auto/closed" was identical to speed in "open"). So in this case the radiator is working properly after it is moved from its initial position, but its initial position gives "open" cooling with "closed" drag.

Note that in the Bf109K-4 the initial radiator setting is bugged in the same way (it doesn't slow the plane down even when it should) as you can see by going to external view - the radiators are clearly operating automatically and opening fully, but causing no drag. Cycling through the settings and back to auto and they now produce drag.

Now the lack of drag in the initial setting (for those planes that have an "auto/closed" setting) is indesputable, but there can be some arguments against my position that the lack of cooling is a bug, so I will argue against myself for a moment.

With the 109K-4 there are 2 temperature guages, presumably one for oil and one for coolant, from my own observation it is clear that the limiting factor is the top guage (presumably that is the oil temp guage, the way the two behave makes it seem that way), and one could argue that if going from 88% to 89% throttle is overheating the oil then opening the coolant radiators would have no (or little) effect, and so one shouldn't expect the overheat message to go away by opening the radiators.

Then why doesn't the Yak3 behave the same way? It is a watercooled engine as well. Perhaps its radiator flaps cover the oil cooler as well? Perhaps its overheat is caused by high coolant temperature rather than high oil temperature?

So acknowledging that the 109K-4 may be working as intended, what then about the LA7? It has an air cooled engine, so here there can be no argument but that the engine should cool when the cowl flaps are opened. Note that with the FW190A-4 its radial engine cools when the cowl flaps are opened, but the LA7 does not. If the guage I think is the temp guage on the LA7 is, in fact, the temp guage then it is not moving when the cowl flaps are opened from an equilibrium non overheat state with the flaps closed (i.e. with the cowl flaps closed and the throttle set for max continuos power without overheating with the flaps closed, it should run a bit cooler once the flaps are opened).

All in all there needs to be a bunch of hours spent to test all of the planes (i'm starting to look forward to "the next sim" having fewer planes as a good thing) and find the bugs. Also we need to find if this dragless auto radiator position occurs when online.

XyZspineZyX
08-19-2003, 07:47 PM
It takes alot of time to do thorough testing of the radiators and I simply don't have time, so if everyone could take an hour to test a plane and submit a bug report to Oleg if its radiator is bugged then maybe they can all get fixed.

Of the 4 planes I have tested thoroughly (FW190A-4, Bf109K-4, LA7, Yak3) only 1 (Yak3) seems to work properly. The other 3 seem bugged, but not all the same way.

I will outline a quick procedure to use which will at least tell if it is obviously bugged (this shouldn't take too long, half an hour). This procedure is not meant to make a precise quantitative analysis of the radiators function, but rather to see if it is obviously bugged or not. I encourage you to make a more thorough investigation.

I will start with the Yak3, as it's radiator seems to work, and it should get you understanding what to expect.

All testing is done with full difficulty on, except cockpit is off (for TAS and radar altimiter) and wind/turbulence is off.

Use the QMB (I have not yet tested any online, that needs to be done as well) and Crimea map (much of what I specify doesn't really matter, but you may get different numbers on different maps. The numbers themselves don't really matter though, as we are just testing for basic radiator functionality) starting at 1000m.

Leave prop pitch, mixture and radiator setting untouched (do not cycle the radiator through any settings as that could clear the bug if the plane you are testing is bugged a certain way). The throttle and the radiator are the only CEM adjustments that will be made (once again do not touch the radiator setting to begin with).

Trim the plane and/or set auto level to get the plane at a relatively constant altitude. Set full throttle (WEP engaged if applicable) and wait for overheat. Then proceed to determine what the maximum throttle setting is at which the plane will not overheat (this may take longer than you think as oil temperature takes longer to rise than coolant and either one can cause overheat). For the Yak3 I got 101% throttle at 650m and 562kph. At 102% it overheats.

Leave it at this throttle setting (101% for the Yak3) for awhile. Now raise it 1% higher (102% for the Yak3) and get ready. The moment the overheat message appears open the radiator.

What you expect to see is that the overheat message will go away and the plane will slow down. This is exactly what happened with the Yak3.

With the 109K-4 I was at 88% throttle 500kph 500m altitude. I switched to 89% throttle and opened radiator the moment the overheat message appeared. No cooling effect at all.

LA7 was same story, opening the radiator the moment I got the overheat message had no cooling effect at all.

FW190A-4 was sort of different. It never overheated to begin with, but when I set the radiator to "closed" (it started in the "auto/closed" position) it overheated. But when I went back to "auto/closed" it slowed way down and stayed slow even after the engine cooled (speed in "auto/closed" was identical to speed in "open"). So in this case the radiator is working properly after it is moved from its initial position, but its initial position gives "open" cooling with "closed" drag.

Note that in the Bf109K-4 the initial radiator setting is bugged in the same way (it doesn't slow the plane down even when it should) as you can see by going to external view - the radiators are clearly operating automatically and opening fully, but causing no drag. Cycling through the settings and back to auto and they now produce drag.

Now the lack of drag in the initial setting (for those planes that have an "auto/closed" setting) is indesputable, but there can be some arguments against my position that the lack of cooling is a bug, so I will argue against myself for a moment.

With the 109K-4 there are 2 temperature guages, presumably one for oil and one for coolant, from my own observation it is clear that the limiting factor is the top guage (presumably that is the oil temp guage, the way the two behave makes it seem that way), and one could argue that if going from 88% to 89% throttle is overheating the oil then opening the coolant radiators would have no (or little) effect, and so one shouldn't expect the overheat message to go away by opening the radiators.

Then why doesn't the Yak3 behave the same way? It is a watercooled engine as well. Perhaps its radiator flaps cover the oil cooler as well? Perhaps its overheat is caused by high coolant temperature rather than high oil temperature?

So acknowledging that the 109K-4 may be working as intended, what then about the LA7? It has an air cooled engine, so here there can be no argument but that the engine should cool when the cowl flaps are opened. Note that with the FW190A-4 its radial engine cools when the cowl flaps are opened, but the LA7 does not. If the guage I think is the temp guage on the LA7 is, in fact, the temp guage then it is not moving when the cowl flaps are opened from an equilibrium non overheat state with the flaps closed (i.e. with the cowl flaps closed and the throttle set for max continuos power without overheating with the flaps closed, it should run a bit cooler once the flaps are opened).

All in all there needs to be a bunch of hours spent to test all of the planes (i'm starting to look forward to "the next sim" having fewer planes as a good thing) and find the bugs. Also we need to find if this dragless auto radiator position occurs when online.

XyZspineZyX
08-19-2003, 08:26 PM
Ok, I just went online on a server that had cockpit off and external views.

-the dragless flaps at start is in effect online and it resets everytime you spawn. So when you spawn a plane with an auto flap setting the flaps will start with flaps that automatically open, but produce no drag. Cycling thru back to auto setting clears the bug, but it will be back when you respawn.

-in looking at the Bf109K-4 in external view I notice there is a radiator under the nose (I presume this is the oil cooler), and that it has a flap at the back, but that flap never opens no matter what the radiator setting, nor the temperature. So this explains why opening the radiators when the engine just starts to barely overheat does not cool it, it is because the oil is overheating rather than the coolant, and the flap for the oil cooler is not operating.

-previous testing had indicated that the FW190D-9 as well as the Bf109E-4 suffered from the same symptoms, i.e. the engine does not cool when radiator flaps are opened at just over the overheat threshhold. I'm not sure if these planes even have flaps for their oil coolers or what, but they should be looked into as well (heck all Bf109s if not all planes in the game need to be looked into).

XyZspineZyX
08-19-2003, 09:45 PM
I'll bump this for ya! A good and important thread!!

http://www.iownjoo.com/freeimghost/robban75/Dora-9-3.JPG


'When it comes to aircombat, I'd rather be lucky than good any day!'

XyZspineZyX
08-20-2003, 02:36 AM
bumpers. Seems like a real FM bug has been found for once.

XyZspineZyX
08-20-2003, 02:51 AM
Um, oil and water temps are much closer connected than you think. If your water coolant is failing to cool the engine block, your motor's running warmer, therefore heating your oil more. Sure planes have oil coolers, but note how small they are, more of an aid, and helps to keep oil temps in a tighter temp range, bit more critical than in your car. If that were all true, where's your oil cooler on your auto at?

The only legit bug, may be, is the speed in starting auto position, if it checks out.

XyZspineZyX
08-20-2003, 03:58 AM
"where's your oil cooler on your auto at?"

Oil coolers are not stock equipment on most water cooled passenger cars, but they are not uncommon on air cooled cars (though they may be after market add ons). Many, if not most, of the VWs I see have oil coolers. I would compare a fighter plane to a heavy truck or a race car before comparing it to a passenger car.

"Um, oil and water temps are much closer connected than you think. If your water coolant is failing to cool the engine block, your motor's running warmer, therefore heating your oil more."

Oil and water temperatures are not what I would describe as closely linked, I suggest you spend a few hours looking at the guages on the 109K-4 before making comments like that. Or looking at the guages of corvettes (the only cars I've tested with oil temp guage) while running them on a dynomometer (not much else to do when running an automated test). The oil and coolant temperature vary at different rates (oil temp rises and lowers more slowly), the oil temp is the true limiting factor (this was a problem with jet engines and promoted the development of synthetic oil), coolant temperature can be as high as you are willing to pressurise the system for, but since the oil temperature is the limiting factor there is little point in having cooling system max temperature overly high. I have no clue what you think you are talking about wrt water coolant failing to cool the engine block, I don't think you do either.

"Sure planes have oil coolers, but note how small they are, more of an aid, and helps to keep oil temps in a tighter temp range, bit more critical than in your car."

And NOTE THAT THEY HAVE A RADIATOR FLAP THAT DOESN"T WORK. They are small because the total heat capacity of the oil is much less than that of the coolant. Everything is only as big as it needs to be.

"The only legit bug, may be, is the speed in starting auto position, if it checks out."

lol, well that portion has already been confirmed by two others who have posted in other threads. If you had a clue and spent a couple hours testing planes while observing their behaviour and their guages, then perhaps you would understand the legitimacy of the other bugs.

XyZspineZyX
08-20-2003, 05:33 AM
OK, checked it on a G-10, don't see anything beyond normal inertia modeling. You can do the exact same thing with flaps and gear. Slow the plane down to 200 at 900 meters, drop full flaps and gear, than slam in the MW50 to full power. Max speed you can accellerate to and hold is roughly 270.

Now clean it up, cool it back down and set a cruise speed for 350 at the same altitude. Drop gear and flaps and slam full MW-50. Holds 300 pretty steady. All in the inertia.

The cowl flaps are doing the exact same thing, once you've busted the speed hump in the dash, the inertial effect will keep it for you. The cooler flaps aren't opening to full position until after your up to speed and start overheating. I can do the exact same by closing them and waiting till I'm up to speed, than open to position 8 when it overheats. Graphically they look the same, and also are holding cruising speeds alike. Don't see any bug there.

XyZspineZyX
08-20-2003, 06:33 AM
Just set-up a very simple test with the 190A-8 and confirmed the bug there.

Conditions in QMB: Empty FW-190A8 at 1500m on the Smolensk map. Upon entering simulation, engage level-stabilizer and push throttle all the way forward. Leave everything alone and observe where speed maxes out at (in my case it was 500kph IAS). Now esc and select refly, engage level-stabilizer and push throttle forward in the same way, but this time cycle all the way through the radiator settings back to "closed/auto" and then observe what max speed you reach (in my case it was 460kph IAS). I repeated both tests three separate times each and produced the same results. 40kph difference between default closed/auto and player-selected closed/auto.

--AKD

http://www.flyingpug.com/pugline2.jpg

Message Edited on 08/20/0305:37AM by A.K.Davis

XyZspineZyX
08-20-2003, 08:17 AM
I was under the impression that the radiator flaps on the K-4 wer those that opened and closed at the wingmount, directly next to the Landing flaps. If this is the case, i have noticed that they don't close as much as they should, being that they are slats controlled by the pressure of the wind going agains them (ie, diving should close them almost entirely).

XyZspineZyX
08-20-2003, 11:08 AM
A simple question now - did Fw 190A series have radiator flaps at all ? Anyone ?

<center>http://easyweb.globalnet.hr/easyweb/users/ntomlino/uploads/sig.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-20-2003, 11:41 AM
Hristos wrote:
- A simple question now - did Fw 190A series have
- radiator flaps at all ? Anyone ?
-
- <center><img
- src="http://easyweb.globalnet.hr/easyweb/users/nto
- mlino/uploads/sig.jpg">



Do you mean - did the Fw 190A series have cowl flaps?

The A series were air-cooled.

XyZspineZyX
08-20-2003, 12:40 PM
-
-
- Do you mean - did the Fw 190A series have cowl
- flaps?
-
- The A series were air-cooled.
-
-

That's what I ment, thank you oh so very much /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Now, did it have 'em or no ?


<center>http://easyweb.globalnet.hr/easyweb/users/ntomlino/uploads/sig.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-20-2003, 01:03 PM
I noticed that the G6as heats up very fast & is very hard to cool down its a constant battle to keep it cool even when runing @ 100% throttle it heats up fast

I think that your oil cooler vent theory is correct

and for a fact the position of the raidator @ spawn is somehow funtioning differantaly than if you cycle through the positions & return it too auto/closed

I kinda noticed this in v1.0 on the dora 44

The first flight I took in the dora1944 in v1.0
I didnt touch the raidiator, just assumed it was closed, took off & flew forever with 75% fuel & wep ingadged in never overheated once I though wow this is some kick arse ac fast as heck & never overheats I realy didnt even consider that it might be a bug so when ever I flew the dora I never bothered with seting the radiator ever again

except one time I accidentaly hit the radiator switch on my throttle & proceded to cycle it back to auto/closed after a fair amount of time It did overheat but it took a while as I was b&z & I throttle down alot it never realy crosed my mind untill this post I think the doras been buged from
day one

<center><FONT COLOR="white">ӚFJ-M œ R D ˜ ӡ[/i]</font>

<center> http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_109_1059752328.jpg </center>

<center><FONT COLOR="white">The "Ace Edge"(c).
With my incremental trim
I am actually able to turn so quickly that, I never turn at all.
In Fact the Planet Earth rotates around the Axis of My PC, thus giving me the optimum turn rate and insuring that you
the bandit are promptly fraged !!!
In memory Of Ray R.I.P.[/i]</font>

XyZspineZyX
08-20-2003, 02:40 PM
I have noticed the same thing. I just started playing FB and it seems that the radiator settings don't make any difference. I fly the g-10 and when I overheated, put rad at open setting and no change. Am I doing something wrong?

http://www.stormbirds.com/warbirds/header.jpg


<center>http://www.bloggerheads.com/mash_quiz/images/mash_henry_blake.jpg (http://www.bloggerheads.com/mash_quiz/)</center>

XyZspineZyX
08-20-2003, 03:15 PM
I dunno about the other planes (the purpose of this thread was to try and get other people to do some testing of other planes. P39, P47, P40 are getting alot of roll rate attention, but are their radiators working? I never fly them so I have no xlue), but with the 109K-4 you can use external view and see the oil cooler under the nose, it has a flap in back just like the coolant radiators under the wings, but unlike the coolant radiators under the wings the oil cooler flap never opens. Was it linked to the coolant radiator flap controls IRL? Did it have its own control? Was it automatic with no control?

When testing you need to keep in mind that the overheat warning can be triggered by two completely different things, oil temp and coolant temp. So you need to pay attention to the seperate guages (another reason I'm not testing alot of VVS planes is that, in addition to not having much flight time in them, im not familiar with their guages).

XyZspineZyX
08-20-2003, 03:31 PM
Fillmore you crazy guy

You bought the game right ?

if so Look on CD 2 there are some nice PDF's of the gauges

file name is IL-2 REFE CARD.pdf

OR LOOK ON YOUR keyboard playcard there on that as well

Ive been flying P39 alot & honestaly the Radiator.cooling funtions seem to be the same as alwayes not heating up to fast or slow they start in closed position so you must cycle them to open

altho Ive noticed P47 seems to run a bit hot might test it

yaks seem normal too me havent flown la's yet

Il2's seam normal as well

<center><FONT COLOR="white">ӚFJ-M œ R D ˜ ӡ[/i]</font>

<center> http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_109_1059752328.jpg </center>

<center><FONT COLOR="white">The "Ace Edge"(c).
With my incremental trim
I am actually able to turn so quickly that, I never turn at all.
In Fact the Planet Earth rotates around the Axis of My PC, thus giving me the optimum turn rate and insuring that you
the bandit are promptly fraged !!!
In memory Of Ray R.I.P.[/i]</font>

XyZspineZyX
08-20-2003, 04:04 PM
Ok, add LA5FN to the list of planes with bugged radiators, its radiator works (or actually fails to work) exactly like the LA7's. Run Crimea at 100% throttle but WEP off (you will have to tweak the throttle around as there can be 100% with WEP, and 100% without WEP) at 500m. Temp will stabilize right at the "2" mark on the guage (it isn't overheating here). Opening the cowl flaps makes drag but has no effect on temperature.

Compare this to a FW190A-4 which at 90% throttle will stabilize at the lower edge of the 120 mark with the radiator closed (make sure you set it to closed as that is not the default position). Opening the radiator will cause the temperature (speed goes down, so retrim lest you crash) to drop and it will stabilize at 10 degrees lower (the low edge of the 110 mark).

XyZspineZyX
08-20-2003, 04:08 PM
@ Hristos:

A-series Focke-Wulfs do not have cowl flaps. It uses fan assisted and ducted cooling within the cowl and engine itself.

Heat/exhaust is exited thru the exhaust slits or "gills" on either side of the engine, behind the cowling.


<center><img src= "http://www.luftwaffepics.com/LCBW4/FW190-A0-52.jpg" height=215 width=365>

<center>"We are now in a position of inferiority...There is no doubt in my mind, nor in the minds of my fighter pilots, that the FW190 is the best all-round fighter in the world today."

Sholto Douglas, 17 July 1942

XyZspineZyX
08-20-2003, 05:03 PM
FW190fan wrote:
- @ Hristos:
-
- A-series Focke-Wulfs do not have cowl flaps. It uses
- fan assisted and ducted cooling within the cowl and
- engine itself.
-
- Heat/exhaust is exited thru the exhaust slits or
- "gills" on either side of the engine, behind the
- cowling.

So why do radiator settings have a drag effect in the 190A series?



--AKD

http://www.flyingpug.com/pugline2.jpg


Message Edited on 08/20/0305:07PM by A.K.Davis

XyZspineZyX
08-20-2003, 05:15 PM
A.K.Davis wrote:
-
- FW190fan wrote:
-- @ Hristos:
--
-- A-series Focke-Wulfs do not have cowl flaps. It uses
-- fan assisted and ducted cooling within the cowl and
-- engine itself.
--
-- Heat exhaust's thru the exhaust slits or
-- "gills" on either side of the engine, behind the
-- cowling.
-
- So why do radiator settings have a drag effect in
- the 190A series?
-

Can someone come up with some documentation so we can get Oleg to unmodel this radiator/cowlflaps/drag situation

I mean if we can prove that this cooling system was basicaly runing all the time, then the top speed @ sealevel
would have to be adjusted with a constanty operational type of radiator for FW we shouldnt have cowl-drag modled for FW cooling system


basicaly this radiator system is modled just as all the others in FB & doesnot reflect the true cooling system of FW

<center><FONT COLOR="white">ӚFJ-M œ R D ˜ ӡ[/i]</font>

<center> http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_109_1059752328.jpg </center>

<center><FONT COLOR="white">The "Ace Edge"(c).
With my incremental trim
I am actually able to turn so quickly that, I never turn at all.
In Fact the Planet Earth rotates around the Axis of My PC, thus giving me the optimum turn rate and insuring that you
the bandit are promptly fraged !!!
In memory Of Ray R.I.P.[/i]</font>

XyZspineZyX
08-20-2003, 05:20 PM
Good point and good question.

Very interesting indeed.


<center><img src= "http://www.luftwaffepics.com/LCBW4/FW190-A0-52.jpg" height=215 width=365>

<center>"We are now in a position of inferiority...There is no doubt in my mind, nor in the minds of my fighter pilots, that the FW190 is the best all-round fighter in the world today."

Sholto Douglas, 17 July 1942

XyZspineZyX
08-20-2003, 06:22 PM
I'll just copy my post from another thread as it is relevant ot this one:



FW190fan wrote:
- @ Cowl flaps and FW190A, from "Janes Fighting
- Aircraft of WWII":
-
- "The introduction of positive air cooling,
- incorporating a cooling fan in the cowl nose
- opening, operating at approximately three times the
- airscrew speed, and a system of internal baffles had
- made it possible to eliminate all external cowling
- excrescences."
-
- ===============================
-
- If no external cowlings, no drag inducing radiator
- function, why would radiators slow the FW190 down?
-



<center><img src= "http://www.luftwaffepics.com/LCBW4/FW190-A0-52.jpg" height=215 width=365>

<center>"We are now in a position of inferiority...There is no doubt in my mind, nor in the minds of my fighter pilots, that the FW190 is the best all-round fighter in the world today."

Sholto Douglas, 17 July 1942

XyZspineZyX
08-20-2003, 06:29 PM
We need someone with big ****** & thick skin to present this too Oleg Maddox

<center><FONT COLOR="white">ӚFJ-M œ R D ˜ ӡ[/i]</font>

<center> http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_109_1059752328.jpg </center>

<center><FONT COLOR="white">The "Ace Edge"(c).
With my incremental trim
I am actually able to turn so quickly that, I never turn at all.
In Fact the Planet Earth rotates around the Axis of My PC, thus giving me the optimum turn rate and insuring that you
the bandit are promptly fraged !!!
In memory Of Ray R.I.P.[/i]</font>

XyZspineZyX
08-20-2003, 06:40 PM
I belive this is a very unbiased sight where you can learn Depths of knoledge about the FW including the cooling system


Its a good sight


http://www.cropp.demon.co.uk/FW/INDEX.HTM

<center><FONT COLOR="white">ӚFJ-M œ R D ˜ ӡ[/i]</font>

<center> http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_109_1059752328.jpg </center>

<center><FONT COLOR="white">The "Ace Edge"(c).
With my incremental trim
I am actually able to turn so quickly that, I never turn at all.
In Fact the Planet Earth rotates around the Axis of My PC, thus giving me the optimum turn rate and insuring that you
the bandit are promptly fraged !!!
In memory Of Ray R.I.P.[/i]</font>

XyZspineZyX
08-20-2003, 07:29 PM
Some snipits copied from that sight I posted speaking about cooling the FW in the early years & final developments


Technical Department of RLM (Technisches Amt) developed specifications for the new fighter plane in the winter of 1937/38 During the spring of 1938 these specifications were sent to manufacturers including Focke-Wulf Flugzeugbau AG.
As a result of work under the supervision of Prof. Kurt Tank and engineer Rudolf Blaser, a relatively small fighter
of compact construction powered by radial AIR-cooled engine was developed.


This was a new BMW company design created by the joining of two BMW 132 nine-cylinder radial engines.
This engine limited pilot's visibility from cockpit even more but rated at 1550 hp (1140 kW) it was about 1/4 more efficient than in-line engines such as the DB-601 or Jumo 211, and able to absorb more battle damage. This high engine power came with troubles with the cooling system that were resolved by introduction in the first prototype, Fw 190 V1, (W.Nr.0001) of a special propeller tunnel spinner covering the engine cooling air inlet in the cowling. The purpose of this cowling was to increase the cooling airflow over the engine and reduce the pressure drag.


The engine cowling was not as good as expected and the engine still had a tendency to overheat. This problem was so severe that even during low powered flight cockpit temperature rose to 55*C. In addition, the cockpit was not properly sealed and exhaust gases had leaked into it. The exhaust gas level was dangerous for the pilot and only his oxygen mask saved Hans Sander from asphyxiation during the first flight.

The Fw 190 had shown a surprisingly high maximum speed during horizontal flight without armament at the altitude of 4000 m - 595 km/hr. Next, the plane was returned to the manufacturer for necessary modifications, especially in the
cooling system. In the case of radial engines there was only one possible solution: to increase airflow over the engine. This was done by using a ten blade fan on the propeller shaft, in front of the engine, near the cowling.
The tunnel spinner was replaced by a traditional spinner, covering only the airscrew hub of the VDM metal propeller.
It was decided to use this after tunnel trials which had shown that the big spinner had not given proper airflow for
efficient engine cooling and its influence on the reduction of pressure drag was not significant. Engine cooling was
improved after this modification, but not to the expected level, and the engine still operated in the high range of
acceptable temperatures


Flights were made from Rechlin-Roggenthin airfield. Later this unit was transferred to Le Bourget near Paris.
During these intensive tests frequent engine failures occurred. The BMW 801 engine still had a tendency to
overheat, especially the back bank of cylinders. Overheating occurred generally on the ground during long runs at low power when the flow of cooling air was reduced to a minimum.

In the Technical Office, reports concerning the Fw 190A-1 main problems still were concentrated on engine overheating


The Fw 190A-2 was the second series variant and was powered by the modified BMW 801C-2 engine. In this model, problems
with the engine rear bank of cylinders overheating were finally solved by the simple introduction of a ventilation slot on the two sides of the engine cowling. The same slots were also introduced in the Fw 190A-1 in service.


During production, in some Fw 190s another modification was applied. In place of the ventilation slots, engine cowling
shutters controlled from the cockpit were installed. The pilot could precisely control the engine temperature by
regulation of the shutters.


<center><FONT COLOR="white">ӚFJ-M œ R D ˜ ӡ[/i]</font>

<center> http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_109_1059752328.jpg </center>

<center><FONT COLOR="white">The "Ace Edge"(c).
With my incremental trim
I am actually able to turn so quickly that, I never turn at all.
In Fact the Planet Earth rotates around the Axis of My PC, thus giving me the optimum turn rate and insuring that you
the bandit are promptly fraged !!!
In memory Of Ray R.I.P.[/i]</font>

XyZspineZyX
08-20-2003, 07:35 PM
Murdoc was doing some checking when you posted your more extensive post, so have done a deletion.

http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/crandall-stormclouds2.jpg


Message Edited on 08/20/0303:38PM by MiloMorai

XyZspineZyX
08-20-2003, 08:11 PM
Yes the cooling flap are activated through an handcrank in the dashboard

Butch

XyZspineZyX
08-21-2003, 12:14 AM
In a related vein, the P-39 shouldn't have cowl flaps at all given its mid-mounted engine. Why would it have any radiator drag penalty when the cooling air seems to have been supplied solely by the air scoop aft of the cockpit canopy?

XyZspineZyX
08-21-2003, 12:47 AM
It was? I always thought that scoop was for induction system - carb, supercharger.

Aren't the openings in the wings leading(wing roots) for the radiator with small exit flaps under the fuselage just before the wings trialing edge.? These opening do seem small though.


NavyFlyer wrote:
- In a related vein, the P-39 shouldn't have cowl
- flaps at all given its mid-mounted engine. Why would
- it have any radiator drag penalty when the cooling
- air seems to have been supplied solely by the air
- scoop aft of the cockpit canopy?
-
-



http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/crandall-stormclouds2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-21-2003, 08:03 PM
I dunno. I thought the turbosupercharger was "deleted" in development of the P-39, thus leading to its rep for a lack of higher altitude performance it is saddled with.

XyZspineZyX
08-21-2003, 08:48 PM
Ok I did some testing on my own super ultra accurate testing
Using the Gauges in the cockpit not the fullscreen gauges
you might be suprised @ the results then again maybe not

Ok a lil advance information, I used the qmb to create these tests 100% fuel @ 5000m after I achived a perfect 5000m using auto level combined with trim & reading the gauges in the Pit to maintain this perfect 5000m altitude the tests begin....

Here are the results
================================================== =========
Aircraft= FWA9
Prop Pth= Automatic
Throttle= 110%
Altitude= 5000m
Radiator= SpawnPosition(IE:Automatic/Closed)
Wep = On
Max Kmh = 510
OilTemp = 120c (peged on the gauge)

Flew like this for over 30min doesnot overheat
================================================== =========
Aircraft= FWA9
Prop Pth= Automatic
Throttle= 110%
Altitude= 5000m
Radiator= Automatic/Closed (Cycled to this Position)
Wep = On
Max Kmh = 460
OilTemp = 120c (peged on the gauge)

Flew like this for over 30min doesnot overheat
================================================== =========
Aircraft= FWA9
Prop Pth= Automatic
Throttle= 110%
Altitude= 5000m
Radiator= Open
Wep = Off
Max Kmh = 430
OilTemp = 120c (peged on the gauge)

Flew like this for over 30min doesnot overheat
================================================== =========
Aircraft= FWA9
Prop Pth= Automatic
Throttle= 110%
Altitude= 5000m
Radiator= Closed
Wep = On
Max Kmh = 500 (*)see note below
OilTemp = 120c (peged on the gauge)

Flew like this for 25 seconds then the Overheat Warning came on, Imeadiataly cycled radiator to Open position it took 48 seconds before the Normal Signal came on this was repetable.

When I Opened the radiator (to the OPEN Position) to cool the engine all information corrilated with this faze of previouse testing...

Aircraft= FWA9
Prop Pth= Automatic
Throttle= 110%
Altitude= 5000m
Radiator= Automatic/Closed (Cycled to this Position)
Wep = On
Max Kmh = 460
OilTemp = 120c (peged on the gauge)

Engine Cooled in 48 seconds, Continued to fly like this for over 30 minuts engine did not re-Overheat

(*) before I could reach 510 the overheat warning came on altho in a later test 510 was achivable & was the max speed @ 5000m with rad closed & engine was overheating for aproximataly 45/50 seconds before I hit 510kmh.
================================================== ==========



In closing Id like to say there are one of two things hapining here....

Either there is a bug that is allowing FWA9 (among other AC)
to achive max kmh 510@5000m (emulating closed flap position but with Cooling Effects

OR

Once we Cycle to the Automatic/Closed Position we are Losing 50Kmh of top end speed for no reason, Wich is also a Bug.

If you will notice that during all tests the The Engine Oil Tempature Is Maxed out @ 120, I canot find the water temp gauge so Im guessing that the Overheat Warning is Trigered by Water temp not Oil Temp...

Either way the Automatic Radiator funtion is not working correctaly Im not sure tho what speed
we should be achiving @ 5000m 510 or 460 Kmh


Radiator spawn setting Automatic/closed 510kmh @ 5000m

Cycle to Radiator setting Automatic/closed 460kmh @ 5000m

sorry this is so long was trying to be very Precise

All Informative Input welcome

This is not a whine post but a post to define proper speed @ altitude & radiator settings




Message Edited on 08/21/03 07:51PM by AFJ_Murdoc

Message Edited on 08/21/0307:51PM by AFJ_Murdoc

XyZspineZyX
08-21-2003, 09:08 PM
FW190A9 has radial aircooled engine, there is no coolant temperature guage.

I'm not sure if the temperature guage it has is oil temperature or head temperature. In any case the message is the only way to tell if it is actually overheating as the overheat point is beyond the ability of the guage to show.

Your test indicates to me that the auto setting is working correctly when you cycle through to get to it, but is cooling the engine yet creating no drag in its initial state upon spawning. I say this because after you cycle you get 460kph with the auto position, but with fully open only 430kph, which means that the auto is selecting the minimum opening that will keep the engine cool.

XyZspineZyX
08-21-2003, 09:25 PM
Fillmore wrote:
- FW190A9 has radial aircooled engine, there is no
- coolant temperature guage.

Ok Great http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


- I'm not sure if the temperature guage it has is oil
- temperature or head temperature.

It Is Oil Temp according to The pdf on CD2 & FB Playcard


- Your test indicates to me that the auto setting is
- working correctly when you cycle through to get to
- it, but is cooling the engine yet creating no drag
- in its initial state upon spawning. I say this
- because after you cycle you get 460kph with the auto
- position, but with fully open only 430kph, which
- means that the auto is selecting the minimum opening
- that will keep the engine cool.

Fillmore u need to look closer bro

================================================== =========
Radiator= Automatic/Closed (Cycled to this Position)
Wep = On
Max Kmh = 460
OilTemp = 120c
================================================== =========
Radiator= Open
Wep = Off
Max Kmh = 430
OilTemp = 120c
================================================== =========


430 was achived by turning WEP OFF & using full Open radiator

460 was achived with WEP ON & Radiator Cycled to Automatic/close

I didnt do a test with Rad OPEN & Wep Engauged


Ill go do it now





<center><FONT COLOR="white">ӚFJ-M œ R D ˜ ӡ[/i]</font>

<center> http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_109_1059752328.jpg </center>

<center><FONT COLOR="white">The "Ace Edge"(c).
With my incremental trim
I am actually able to turn so quickly that, I never turn at all.
In Fact the Planet Earth rotates around the Axis of My PC, thus giving me the optimum turn rate and insuring that you
the bandit are promptly fraged !!!
In memory Of Ray R.I.P.[/i]</font>

XyZspineZyX
08-21-2003, 09:29 PM
Also



These Numbers come from this websight:

Sea level: 575 km/h (585-595)
At 6,500 m: 675-680 km/h.
At 5500 m 690-700 km/h

At this time, we are no where Close to achiving 690/700Kmh
@ 5000m, Not according to the Cockpit Gauges anyway, also the Pit gauges corralate to the Speedbar readings NOT the fullscreen Gauges...

Id also like to add that the tests In my Previouse post the RPM was 2700 using automatic PP in all flights/tests


Going to test with Radiator OPEN & WEP On be back in an hour LOL


<center><FONT COLOR="white">ӚFJ-M œ R D ˜ ӡ[/i]</font>

<center> http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_109_1059752328.jpg </center>

<center><FONT COLOR="white">The "Ace Edge"(c).
With my incremental trim
I am actually able to turn so quickly that, I never turn at all.
In Fact the Planet Earth rotates around the Axis of My PC, thus giving me the optimum turn rate and insuring that you
the bandit are promptly fraged !!!
In memory Of Ray R.I.P.[/i]</font>

XyZspineZyX
08-21-2003, 09:42 PM
Ok here is the test


================================================== =========
Aircraft= FWA9
Prop Pth= Automatic
Throttle= 110%
Altitude= 5000m
Radiator= Cycled & selected FULL OPEN
Wep = On
Max Kmh = 460
OilTemp = 120c (peged on the gauge)


There is no differance between

Cycling to automatic/close & Full Open

All conditions were the same as previouse tests

Ie Fuel PP RPM


<center><FONT COLOR="white">ӚFJ-M œ R D ˜ ӡ[/i]</font>

<center> http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_109_1059752328.jpg </center>

<center><FONT COLOR="white">The "Ace Edge"(c).
With my incremental trim
I am actually able to turn so quickly that, I never turn at all.
In Fact the Planet Earth rotates around the Axis of My PC, thus giving me the optimum turn rate and insuring that you
the bandit are promptly fraged !!!
In memory Of Ray R.I.P.[/i]</font>

XyZspineZyX
08-21-2003, 10:52 PM
Oh, ok I didnt notice you had WEP on one but not the other. So the next test is to run at a lower throttle setting and see if auto is always the same as open, or if auto will open it only partially if it doesn't need full cooling. I'm not really sure if it should even have an automatic setting.

As for the speeds any specifications you are likely to find give TAS (True AirSpeed), while your cockpit guages give IAS (Indicated AirSpeed). To see TAS you need to turn off the cockpit.

I get 699kph@5900m autopitch
over 710kph with manual pitch.

For the FW190A-9.

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 12:05 AM
In my testing, I have seen no difference between the player-selected "auto/closed" position and the "open" position. Same speed, same time to overheat with both WEP and reduced throttle.

Strangely enough, on the D-9s you can see that visually, the "auto/closed" position is functioning normally. In both the default "auto/closed" position and the player-selected "auto/closed position the cowl flaps open as the engine heats up. The actual effects on drag and overheating, however, are the same as in all the other aircraft with automatic radiators.

--AKD

http://www.flyingpug.com/pugline2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 12:14 AM
Davis can you explain that more Im not following you ?

Ill go do some dora tests asap

<center><FONT COLOR="white">ӚFJ-M œ R D ˜ ӡ[/i]</font>

<center> http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_109_1059752328.jpg </center>

<center><FONT COLOR="white">The "Ace Edge"(c).
With my incremental trim
I am actually able to turn so quickly that, I never turn at all.
In Fact the Planet Earth rotates around the Axis of My PC, thus giving me the optimum turn rate and insuring that you
the bandit are promptly fraged !!!
In memory Of Ray R.I.P.[/i]</font>

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 12:28 AM
Fillmore Im sorry I added so many specs in each test here is a smaller easier to read version hopefully Oleg sees this


All Tests Used these settings:
Aircraft= FWA9
Prop Pth= Automatic
Throttle= 110%
Altitude= 5000m
================================================== =========

Radiator= Spawn/Default Position (IE:Automatic/Closed)
Wep = On
Max Kmh = 510


OilTemp = 120c (peged on the gauge)
Flew like this for over 30min doesnot overheat
================================================== =========

Radiator= Automatic/Closed (Manualy Selected)
Wep = On
Max Kmh = 460

OilTemp = 120c (peged on the gauge)
Flew like this for over 30min doesnot overheat
================================================== =========

Radiator= Manualy selected Open
Wep = On
Max Kmh = 460

OilTemp = 120c (peged on the gauge)
Flew like this for over 30min doesnot overheat
================================================== ==========

Radiator= Open
Wep = Off
Max Kmh = 430

OilTemp = 120c (peged on the gauge)
Flew like this for over 30min doesnot overheat
================================================== =========

Radiator= Closed
Wep = On
Max Kmh = 500 *see note below

OilTemp = 120c (peged on the gauge)

Flew like this for 25 seconds then the Overheat Warning came on, Imeadiataly cycled radiator to Open position it took 48 seconds before the Normal Signal came on this was repetable.

When I Opened the radiator (OPEN Position) to cool the engine all information corrilated with this faze of previouse testing...

Radiator= Automatic/Closed (Manualy Selected)
Wep = On
Max Kmh = 460

OilTemp = 120c (peged on the gauge

Engine Cooled in 48 seconds, Continued to fly like this for over 30 minuts engine did not re-Overheat

*before I could reach 510 the overheat warning came on, altho in a later test 510 was achivable & was the max speed @ 5000m with rad closed & engine was overheating for aproximataly 45/50 seconds before I hit 510kmh.


Message Edited on 08/21/0311:30PM by AFJ_Murdoc

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 12:35 AM
RGR that Filmore I will Conduct some more tests @ 90% throttle

<center><FONT COLOR="white">ӚFJ-M œ R D ˜ ӡ[/i]</font>

<center> http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_109_1059752328.jpg </center>

<center><FONT COLOR="white">The "Ace Edge"(c).
With my incremental trim
I am actually able to turn so quickly that, I never turn at all.
In Fact the Planet Earth rotates around the Axis of My PC, thus giving me the optimum turn rate and insuring that you
the bandit are promptly fraged !!!
In memory Of Ray R.I.P.[/i]</font>

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 01:31 AM
Ok here we go Very interesting.....


All Tests Used these settings:
Aircraft= FWA9
Prop Pth= Automatic
Throttle= 90%
Altitude= 5000m
Fuel = 100%
================================================== =========

Radiator= Default Position (IE:Automatic/Closed)
Wep = On
Max Kmh = 450
OilTemp = 100c

================================================== =========

Radiator= Manualy Selected= Automatic/Closed
Wep = On
Max Kmh = 410
OilTemp = 100c

================================================== =========

Radiator= Manualy selected= Open
Wep = On
Max Kmh = 410
OilTemp = 100

================================================== ==========

Radiator= Manualy selected=2
Wep = On
Max Kmh = 440
OilTemp = 118c

================================================== ==========

Radiator= Manualy selected=4
Wep = On
Max Kmh = 430
OilTemp = 116c

================================================== ==========

Radiator= Manualy selected=6
Wep = On
Max Kmh = 420
OilTemp = 113c

================================================== ==========

Radiator= Manualy selected=8
Wep = On
Max Kmh = 420
OilTemp = 110c

================================================== ==========



Ok again there is no differance Between Manualy Selected Auto/closed And Fully Open Radiator

There is a 40Kmh differance between Default Radiator setting (Auto/Closed) and Manualy Selected (Auto/Close)
there is no Oil Temp Change tho

It appears That The Default setting is bugged since there is a 40Kmh Advantage With no Oil tempature Rise !!!


End of Tests..... Conclusion Default Radiator setting Is bugged & needs fixing

This is not only On the FWA9 But On alot of the AC in FB but not all.....

Extensive testing needs to be done on All AC to isolate the effected AC


Good LUCK !!! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

<center><FONT COLOR="white">ӚFJ-M œ R D ˜ ӡ[/i]</font>

<center> http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_109_1059752328.jpg </center>

<center><FONT COLOR="white">The "Ace Edge"(c).
With my incremental trim
I am actually able to turn so quickly that, I never turn at all.
In Fact the Planet Earth rotates around the Axis of My PC, thus giving me the optimum turn rate and insuring that you
the bandit are promptly fraged !!!
In memory Of Ray R.I.P.[/i]</font>



Message Edited on 08/22/0312:32AM by AFJ_Murdoc

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 07:11 AM
AFJ_Murdoc wrote:
- Davis can you explain that more Im not following you
- ?
-
- Ill go do some dora tests asap

Your test results will be the same as with other 190s and 109s, I'm just saying that the external 3-D model has the automatic cowl flaps opening and closing visually (although they never close all the way in either auto setting), but the test results do not conform to what you see visually. You can see the cowl flaps pop open as the engine heats when flying in the default "auto/closed," but there is no loss of speed. Likewise, you can see that the flaps are (almost) closed on a cool engine under the player-selected "closed/auto" position, but you get drag like they are fully open.

--AKD

http://www.flyingpug.com/pugline2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 09:23 AM
A.K.Davis wrote:
-
- AFJ_Murdoc wrote:
-- Davis can you explain that more Im not following you
-- ?
--
-- Ill go do some dora tests asap
-
- Your test results will be the same as with other
- 190s and 109s, I'm just saying that the external 3-D
- model has the automatic cowl flaps opening and
- closing visually (although they never close all the
- way in either auto setting), but the test results do
- not conform to what you see visually. You can see
- the cowl flaps pop open as the engine heats when
- flying in the default "auto/closed," but there is no
- loss of speed. Likewise, you can see that the flaps
- are (almost) closed on a cool engine under the
- player-selected "closed/auto" position, but you get
- drag like they are fully open.
-
---AKD
-


Agreed.... THis same thing is happaning to the 190 BUT.....

One point Id like to make is Since the FW190A series have no Cowlflaps to create Drag then why is it modled on the FW there are vents (not cowlflaps) & the Position of the Vents appear as there would be No Extra Drag Produced buy opening thoes vents, Infact I belive that it might/should be better to have the vents open (more aerodynamic) because your allowing the air to flow through the cowling & exit via the Vents

Instead of traping the air in the Cowling with vents closed

The position of the Vents on the Outside of the FW do not look like they would create much drag if any at all.

Again im not an aeronautical enginear but I have a good idea of how drag works & thoes dont look like they would slow the FW buy 40kmh.

<center><FONT COLOR="white">ӚFJ-M œ R D ˜ ӡ[/i]</font>

<center> http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_109_1059752328.jpg </center>

<center><FONT COLOR="white">The "Ace Edge"(c).
With my incremental trim
I am actually able to turn so quickly that, I never turn at all.
In Fact the Planet Earth rotates around the Axis of My PC, thus giving me the optimum turn rate and insuring that you
the bandit are promptly fraged !!!
In memory Of Ray R.I.P.[/i]</font>

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 01:19 PM
As I just said in the other radiator thread, if the Fw looses that much speed with the 'gill' flaps open, then on a/c such as the P-47 and La-5/7 the cowling flaps should act as airbrakes. The area presented to the airflow is many times much more than what the ~300cm^2, and this is not the area presented to the airflow, of the Fw's 'gill' flaps.


AFJ_Murdoc wrote:
-

- Agreed.... THis same thing is happaning to the 190
- BUT.....
-
- One point Id like to make is Since the FW190A series
- have no Cowlflaps to create Drag then why is it
- modled on the FW there are vents (not cowlflaps) &
- the Position of the Vents appear as there would be
- No Extra Drag Produced buy opening thoes vents,
- Infact I belive that it might/should be better to
- have the vents open (more aerodynamic) because your
- allowing the air to flow through the cowling & exit
- via the Vents
-
- Instead of traping the air in the Cowling with vents
- closed
-
- The position of the Vents on the Outside of the FW
- do not look like they would create much drag if any
- at all.
-
- Again im not an aeronautical enginear but I have a
- good idea of how drag works & thoes dont look like
- they would slow the FW buy 40kmh.
-


http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/crandall-stormclouds2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 10:01 PM
Oleg do you see this ?

<center><FONT COLOR="white">ӚFJ-M œ R D ˜ ӡ[/i]</font>

<center> http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_109_1059752328.jpg </center>

<center><FONT COLOR="white">The "Ace Edge"(c).
With my incremental trim
I am actually able to turn so quickly that, I never turn at all.
In Fact the Planet Earth rotates around the Axis of My PC, thus giving me the optimum turn rate and insuring that you
the bandit are promptly fraged !!!
In memory Of Ray R.I.P.[/i]</font>

XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 01:55 AM
This is a real bug & needs to be fixed its not only happaning to the FW but other AC as well

This is a LARGE BUG not a small Roach

<center><FONT COLOR="white">ӚFJ-M œ R D ˜ ӡ[/i]</font>

<center> http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_109_1059752328.jpg </center>

<center><FONT COLOR="white">The "Ace Edge"(c).
With my incremental trim
I am actually able to turn so quickly that, I never turn at all.
In Fact the Planet Earth rotates around the Axis of My PC, thus giving me the optimum turn rate and insuring that you
the bandit are promptly fraged !!!
In memory Of Ray R.I.P.[/i]</font>

XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 02:43 AM
Well, I sent him several bug reports and he rplied to one saying it wasn't a bug (and I wasn't surprised, I just sent it cause it was so different than prepatch with regard to supercharger operation), so I am sure that he has read them all and either sees that they are bugs, or is testing to verify.

Now is the time to move on and further document and submit bugs for other radiator problems.

LA5FN/LA7 opening cowl flaps makes drag but has no cooling effect (have not tested LA5 or LA5F).

Bf109s and FW190D-9s seem to be having issues with the oil cooler (with the 109K-4 it can be seen from the external view that the flap for the oil cooler under the nose never opens, not sure how/where oil coolers are on the others). Although it could be that the oil cooler is working under CEM and it is only the visual model that isn't working, I think it is more than just the visual model not working because these plane are being oil temperature limited whereas the Yak3 (the only other water cooled plane I tested) is coolant temperature limited (i.e. in 109s and 190D your maximum throttle without overheat is limited by the oil temperature rather than the coolant temperature).

P39N, Yak3 seem to function normally. FW190A functions normally after cycling away from the initial auto setting. Other planes need to be tested.

XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 06:06 AM
Fillmore wrote:
FW190A
- functions normally after cycling away from the
- initial auto setting. Other planes need to be
- tested.
-
-

Fillmore, you need to do more testing with the 190As. As in all aircraft with automatic radiator settings, both the default position AND the player-selected "closed/auto" position appear to be bugged.

--AKD

http://www.flyingpug.com/pugline2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 07:24 PM
well, the player selected auto position may be argue that it is same as open when it shouldn't be, but you could also argue that the FW190A had no auto control for that anyway. I know the bf109s did, and for what temperature they tried to maintain, but I never heard of such a thing on a FW190A, and if there was such a thing we would have to know what temperature it was trying to maintain.

XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 08:40 PM
AFJ_Murdoc wrote:
-
- One point Id like to make is Since the FW190A series
- have no Cowlflaps to create Drag then why is it
- modled on the FW there are vents (not cowlflaps) &
- the Position of the Vents appear as there would be
- No Extra Drag Produced buy opening thoes vents,
- Infact I belive that it might/should be better to
- have the vents open (more aerodynamic) because your
- allowing the air to flow through the cowling & exit
- via the Vents
-
- Instead of traping the air in the Cowling with vents
- closed
-
- The position of the Vents on the Outside of the FW
- do not look like they would create much drag if any
- at all.
-
- Again im not an aeronautical enginear but I have a
- good idea of how drag works & thoes dont look like
- they would slow the FW buy 40kmh.
-

I am given to understand, with the cowl flaps closed, the trapped air forms a sort of aerodynamic bubble covering the cowling intake, and streamlining the aircraft somewhat. When the cowl flaps are opened, the trapped air escapes eliminating the bubble, and the moving air then has to snake its way through the engine, rather than gliding over the air bubble.

It's the same sort of aerodynamic effects you get in a pickup with the tailgate up. The trapped air gives the truck a more streamlined form, despite the tailgate looking like a giant airbrake. Interestingly enough, when the tailgate is removed, the air is forced to drop to the bed of the truck, before exiting, actually reducing the aerodynamic effeciency of the vehicle, causing extra drag, and reducing fuel effeciency. You truck owners out there can test this by driving with the tail gate up for one refueling, recording the gas milage, and then driving with the tail gate down for a second refueling, and compairing the gass milage. For similare driving, the gas milage will actually be better with the tailgate up, than with it down.

Harry Voyager

http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0YQDLAswcqmIpvWP9dLzZVayPXOmo6IJ16aURujNfs4dDETH84 Q6eIkCbWQemjqF6O8ZfvzlsvUUauJyy9GYnKM6!o3fu!kBnWVh BgMt3q2T3BUQ8yjBBqECLxFaqXVV5U2kWiSIlq1s6VoaVvRqBy Q/Avatar%202%20500x500%20[final).jpg?dc=4675409848259594077

XyZspineZyX
08-24-2003, 12:00 PM
Bump for Fillmore for all the time he's putting into finding these bugs and informing Oleg about them.

Keep up the good work!!!!!

XyZspineZyX
08-24-2003, 11:26 PM
roger that harry

<center><FONT COLOR="white">ӚFJ-M œ R D ˜ ӡ[/i]</font>

<center> http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_109_1059752328.jpg </center>

<center><FONT COLOR="white">The "Ace Edge"(c).
With my incremental trim
I am actually able to turn so quickly that, I never turn at all.
In Fact the Planet Earth rotates around the Axis of My PC, thus giving me the optimum turn rate and insuring that you
the bandit are promptly fraged !!!
In memory Of Ray R.I.P.[/i]</font>



Message Edited on 08/24/0310:32PM by AFJ_Murdoc

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 11:20 AM
AFJ_Murdoc wrote:
- roger that harry

I will not be rogering harry.

Do it yourself /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-25-2003, 12:29 PM
HarryVoyager wrote:
-
- I am given to understand, with the cowl flaps
- closed, the trapped air forms a sort of aerodynamic
- bubble covering the cowling intake, and streamlining
- the aircraft somewhat. When the cowl flaps are
- opened, the trapped air escapes eliminating the
- bubble, and the moving air then has to snake its way
- through the engine, rather than gliding over the air
- bubble.
-
- It's the same sort of aerodynamic effects you get in
- a pickup with the tailgate up. The trapped air
- gives the truck a more streamlined form, despite the
- tailgate looking like a giant airbrake.
- Interestingly enough, when the tailgate is removed,
- the air is forced to drop to the bed of the truck,
- before exiting, actually reducing the aerodynamic
- effeciency of the vehicle, causing extra drag, and
- reducing fuel effeciency. You truck owners out
- there can test this by driving with the tail gate up
- for one refueling, recording the gas milage, and
- then driving with the tail gate down for a second
- refueling, and compairing the gass milage. For
- similare driving, the gas milage will actually be
- better with the tailgate up, than with it down.
-
- Harry Voyager


Or they can watch the Nascar Truck races.

Air coming out of those vents will create vortices, the drag of the vortices helps to pull air through the cowling probably in direct relation to the force of air entering from the front. There is no free lunch in physics!


Neal