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thewhitestig
12-19-2013, 04:18 PM
Am I the only one who thinks the story of Assassin's Creed IV is fundamentally flawed?

The whole point of the last games was that you were part of a creed. You were fighting for good. For justice and freedom for all people. While the Templars were the exact opposite. They were the oppressors wanting to control people.

This time however, you're nothing more than a bloody pirate. You have some connections to the Assassin's but you're not one yourself. You are not fighting for justice and freedom. You steal from other people, and kill innocent travelers. You plunder whatever you can find. It's all about your personal benefit, and not about what's good for humanity.

Edward Kenway is not a man who deserves to wear the clothes of an Assassin. He has no honor, no moral high ground over the Templars, he has no respect for the human life and does not distinguish good from evil. He is essentially the bad guy, even though his end goal aligns with the one of the creed.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy playing bad guys in video games, it's just that this new "assassin" feels extremely out of place.

roostersrule2
12-19-2013, 04:21 PM
That was the whole point of Eddie's story.

While I'll agree that I preferred the Assassins vs Templar stories from the past games, Edwards story was meant to be one of personal gain and riches.

Shahkulu101
12-19-2013, 04:27 PM
It's a neutral perspective, a nice change for once. The Creed plays as much a part in Edwards life than any other Assassin, he just wildly misinterprets it at first. Eventually he becomes a better man and embraces the Assassin's agreeing to eliminate the remaining Templars. And at the end, he isn't just a bloody pirate - he's a selfless man with nothing left of his pirate life. All he has is his daughter, and he's happy. It was never about riches, Edward convinced himself it was.

pirate1802
12-19-2013, 04:38 PM
That was the point of the story. To show how Eddy turned from a selfish pirate to a understanding assassin. Its sometimes good to see things from a different perspective.

Btw, you never steal or kill any innocent people or ships, not more than other ACs used to allow you, at any rate.


He has no honor, no moral high ground over the Templars, he has no respect for the human life and does not distinguish good from evil. He is essentially the bad guy, even though his end goal aligns with the one of the creed.

Well hold on, no he surely is not the "good guy" but he isn't the way you're describing him as well. The one who you are describing is Charles Vane. Who sinks a civilian schooner without second thoughts. He is the neutral guy, not the evil psychopath guy you're describing him as. He does have some noble qualities as well, lest you forget. He's not a racist, for example, even when his compatriots are. He'd go to any length to protect people he considers friends.

thewhitestig
12-19-2013, 05:13 PM
pirate1802, if stealing from the British and Spanish and killing their people is not bad, then what is?

pirate1802
12-19-2013, 05:18 PM
pirate1802, if stealing from the British and Spanish and killing their people is not bad, then what is?

As if other assassins from other five games never did such a thing...? :rolleyes:

Charles_Phipps
12-19-2013, 05:30 PM
pirate1802, if stealing from the British and Spanish and killing their people is not bad, then what is?

The issue is complicated by the fact that the Spanish and British ships in the area are oppressing the local people and the majority of the stuff they're carrying was achieved through slave plantations. Rum and Sugar come from the slave holding plantations all around the Caribbean so, really, it's hard to feel sympathy for the individuals transporting those goods.

Also, honestly, I like that Edward is a figure who tries to live in a fundamentally unjust time where a man born in the lower class could never think about becoming more than he was.

Charles_Phipps
12-19-2013, 05:39 PM
Am I the only one who thinks the story of Assassin's Creed IV is fundamentally flawed?

The whole point of the last games was that you were part of a creed. You were fighting for good. For justice and freedom for all people. While the Templars were the exact opposite. They were the oppressors wanting to control people.

This time however, you're nothing more than a bloody pirate. You have some connections to the Assassin's but you're not one yourself. You are not fighting for justice and freedom. You steal from other people, and kill innocent travelers. You plunder whatever you can find. It's all about your personal benefit, and not about what's good for humanity.

Edward Kenway is not a man who deserves to wear the clothes of an Assassin. He has no honor, no moral high ground over the Templars, he has no respect for the human life and does not distinguish good from evil. He is essentially the bad guy, even though his end goal aligns with the one of the creed.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy playing bad guys in video games, it's just that this new "assassin" feels extremely out of place.

I'd also like to point out the issue was more complicated than you're saying. In Assassins Creed 1, the Templars included many individuals who wanted to make the world a better place like the guy who was treating all the insane people in the Holy Land and trying to find a cure for their conditions.

Altair was also an arrogant murderer for most of the game and really, I'm not too much of a fan of the man he became.

Ezio, yeah, was presented as THE GOOD GUY.

But I like Connor was an idealist who didn't make things better just because he THOUGHT he was a hero.

Haytham thought he was a hero too, after all.

ze_topazio
12-19-2013, 05:48 PM
Not this sh*t again...

Charles_Phipps
12-19-2013, 05:51 PM
Not this sh*t again...

I admit, I wonder why we keep getting people talking about being an Assassin is all about being the hero.

I think the games are pretty clear Assassins are morally ambiguous good guys.

I go with Shaun's description of them. "We kill people as our first and last acts, we're not goody-goody types."

pirate1802
12-19-2013, 05:51 PM
Not this sh*t again...

The AC forums... the AC forums never changes.

Kaschra
12-19-2013, 05:52 PM
Am I the only one who thinks the story of Assassin's Creed IV is fundamentally flawed?

The whole point of the last games was that you were part of a creed. You were fighting for good. For justice and freedom for all people. While the Templars were the exact opposite. They were the oppressors wanting to control people.

This time however, you're nothing more than a bloody pirate. You have some connections to the Assassin's but you're not one yourself. You are not fighting for justice and freedom. You steal from other people, and kill innocent travelers. You plunder whatever you can find. It's all about your personal benefit, and not about what's good for humanity.

Edward Kenway is not a man who deserves to wear the clothes of an Assassin. He has no honor, no moral high ground over the Templars, he has no respect for the human life and does not distinguish good from evil. He is essentially the bad guy, even though his end goal aligns with the one of the creed.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy playing bad guys in video games, it's just that this new "assassin" feels extremely out of place.


They did something new with the story, a different approach with the protagonist this time. And I'm bloody glad they did.
Edward didn't instantly follow the creed. But over time his eyes were opened. In the end, he is not the same man he was in the beginning of his story, he changed a lot, from a selfish man to someone who believed in the assassin's cause.

The fact that Edward didn't deserve the robes was even brought up in the game by several characters.

I'm actually not sure if you finished the game, because your words speak otherwise :/

Charles_Phipps
12-19-2013, 05:53 PM
I admit, there was a problem with the game.

When Edward and Adewale decided to stop being pirates, I was *****ed off.

Becoming assassins should not feel like a step down.

I wanted to see Pirate Assassins and what I got was Pirate then Assassin.

pirate1802
12-19-2013, 05:53 PM
I admit, I wonder why we keep getting people talking about being an Assassin is all about being the hero.

I think the games are pretty clear Assassins are morally ambiguous good guys.

I go with Shaun's description of them. "We kill people as our first and last acts, we're not goody-goody types."

I think the Ezio games are to be blamed for creating that mindset. In those games the Assassins are pretty much presented as the noble guardians while the Templars are the evil bastards.

Charles_Phipps
12-19-2013, 05:55 PM
I think the Ezio games are to be blamed for creating that mindset. In those games the Assassins are pretty much presented as the noble guardians while the Templars are the evil bastards.

It was really obvious in Revelations, because the guards are all slave-soldiers taken from their families as children.

And Ezio is like, "The Assassins are totally in control of this city. Rock."

Nice job, Auditore.

:p

pirate1802
12-19-2013, 05:59 PM
They did something new with the story, a different approach with the protagonist this time. And I'm bloody glad they did.
Edward didn't instantly follow the creed. But over time his eyes were opened. In the end, he is not the same man he was in the beginning of his story, he changed a lot, from a selfish man to someone who believed in the assassin's cause.

The fact that Edward didn't deserve the robes was even brought up in the game by several characters.

I'm actually not sure if you finished the game, because your words speak otherwise :/


Edward's whole life is actually "nothing is true, everything is permitted" in demonstration and what he means. The first time he meets Ah Tabai and he expresses his distaste on how Edward took the assassin robes even though he doesn't deserve it. He replies "why? Everything is permitted right?" And so he lives his life as it everything is permitted. He takes what he pleases and goes after what he wants without caring for the repercussions. Slowly her realizes that "everything is permitted" has a cost. And he pays that cost. Only then he understands that that phrase doesn't mean that we should do as we please, but we and only we, are responsible for our actions and their consequences. As Edward bore the consequences of his actions. On his second visit to Tulum he says these things to Ah Tabai and admits that understanding these is only the beginning to a deeper truth.

Its beautiful, if you think of it. No other game has given us a live demonstration of what that particular line means and what the costs of misinterpreting it are.

Charles_Phipps
12-19-2013, 06:02 PM
Edward's whole life is actually "nothing is true, everything is permitted" in demonstration and what he means. The first time he meets Ah Tabai and he expresses his distaste on how Edward took the assassin robes even though he doesn't deserve it. He replies "why? Everything is permitted right?" And so he lives his life as it everything is permitted. He takes what he pleases and goes after what he wants without caring for the repercussions. Slowly her realizes that "everything is permitted" has a cost. And he pays that cost. Only then he understands that that phrase doesn't mean that we should do as we please, but we and only we, are responsible for our actions and their consequences. As Edward bore the consequences of his actions. On his second visit to Tulum he says these things to Ah Tabai and admits that understanding these is only the beginning to a deeper truth.

Its beautiful, if you think of it. No other game has given us a live demonstration of what that particular line means and what the costs of misinterpreting it are.

For me, I also thought the game was powerful because we get to see the Assasins and Templars war from the perspective of outsiders. Torres and the Templars want to build a new world with the Observatory as do the Assassins but neither of them really have an impact on the day-to-day lives of regular people. Worse, they kind of prevent the other from making a real viable difference in people's lives.

Torres could have ended slavery and changed the world.

The Assassins, if not devastated by the Templars, could have perhaps liberated Haiti and other indigenoeus people centuries before it happened in our world.

In the end, they prevent each other from making the world different from the RL one. It was a nice change from "The Templars rule the world and the Assassins are the plucky resistance." I think you need the "everyman's perspective" to make the games feel grounded.

RinoTheBouncer
12-19-2013, 06:07 PM
I agree with you. However, I did love Edward’s character and the story would only make sense if you get to play at least another full game as Edward showing his story as an Assassin. Something a bit more focused on a shorter period of time like Brotherhood and Revelations. This one is like an introduction to a great character. Alone, it doesn’t make sense and it feels flawed as you said and the point of AC games isn’t to show how somebody joined the assassins but what they do as assassins.

The great Ezio Auditore was motivated by vengeance for his family, however, the story involved more actions as an assassin early in the game and not just revenge itself. He became an assassin to take revenge not decided to be one after it’s all over. Yes, the initiation took place by the final chapters of ACII but throughout the game, he followed the path as an assassin, for the assassins and with the assassins. AC:B was more about a greater good and also revenge but all that for the brotherhood not just himself or his family. Revelations was more about knowledge and free of any personal gains. So, if they’re to do something similar to Edward, that would make sense because this will be chronicling his life over 2-3 games from a penniless man to a pirate to an assassin to a father. That would be perfect.

pirate1802
12-19-2013, 06:07 PM
YEs exactly. The game showed the two factions from an everyday man's perspectives. I mean obviously you'd think the assassins are glorious when they save your lives, but how would you see them if you yourself are not involved in the matters and just watching them fight from a distance? Stupid idealists vs power-hungry bastards. Thats how Edward saw them, and thats how the game showed them too. Just two groups of people fighting each other speaking grand words, but which meant nothing to Edward. I liked it. Moar such diverse p[perspectives pls Ubisoft. I wont even mind if we play as a Templar full-time some day. Although, as evidenced by this thread, it won't be such a popular idea and most likely would never happen.

Charles_Phipps
12-19-2013, 06:10 PM
Edward isn't an assassin throughout the game but I actually think he was attempting to show the ideals of the Assassin the entire time, even if he didn't understand them. Edward was a killer (Assassin Contracts), did Assassin missions (Templar Hunts), and attempted to live free of the control of outsider (as a pirate rather than an Assassin). The fact he was doing it "wrong" (quote unquote) doesn't mean he wasn't living the life of an Assassin.

I admit, though, I'd entirely be okay with another Edward game.


I wont even mind if we play as a Templar full-time some day. Although, as evidenced by this thread, it won't be such a popular idea and most likely would never happen.

Anything worth doing will have some person complain about it.

:D

adventurewomen
12-19-2013, 06:11 PM
Edward Kenway is not a man who deserves to wear the clothes of an Assassin. He has no honor, no moral high ground over the Templars, he has no respect for the human life and does not distinguish good from evil. He is essentially the bad guy, even though his end goal aligns with the one of the creed.
Yeah you really need to read the AC4 Oliver Bowden book for more background story on Edward.

Charles_Phipps
12-19-2013, 06:14 PM
Edward Kenway is not a man who deserves to wear the clothes of an Assassin. He has no honor, no moral high ground over the Templars, he has no respect for the human life and does not distinguish good from evil. He is essentially the bad guy, even though his end goal aligns with the one of the creed.

Yeah, that's the story. He's a bad guy who gets redeemed by realizing that idealism is better than self-interest.

Admittedly, I'm not sure wearing the robes of the Assassin is such an honor either.

I think Ubisoft should make it canon the Assassins triggered WW1 and maybe other famous (lower case) assassins were large A like John Wilkes Boothe. They already cheated with Oswald being a Templar agent.

Part of why I liked "The Fall" is the Assassins are depicted as being part of a RL group of terrorists who did nothing but make the Russian situation worse.

pirate1802
12-19-2013, 06:14 PM
Anything worth doing will have some person complain about it.

:D

Hey, if I was in charge of the franchise I'd have totally done it. And them promptly ignore all the moanings about "Templar's Creed" lol. But unfortunately (or fortunately) I'm not. :(

Charles_Phipps
12-19-2013, 06:17 PM
Hey, if I was in charge of the franchise I'd have totally done it. And them promptly ignore all the moanings about "Templar's Creed" lol. But unfortunately (or fortunately) I'm not. :(

It's a tough balance because I don't think the Assassins SHOULD be bad-BAD guys. However, they should have some bad seeds and make bad decisions.

The Templars should be the reverse too.

If we played as a Templar, I'd want it to be something unique like fighting Nazis or slavers rather than Assassins for instance.

pirate1802
12-19-2013, 06:22 PM
A full Haytham game would have been the perfect opportunity to do that.

But what also can be done, is say You're a Templar given 9 Assassins to assassinate. Like AC1 but totally reversed. They won't be outright evil or goody too shoes Assassins either. balanced. So would be you and your compatriots. You track each of the, learn about them and kill them. In doing so, you learn about their beliefs, philosophies, the different factions within the Assassins, all fighting for the same goal. And doing so, you learn about the Creed in a way deeper manner than it would be possible for a single Assassin. Because to me, the ultimate hero of these games is the Assassin's Creed. The Creed. Not a single assassin. So each game should tell you about the Creed and its fights. You can learn about it from the perspective of an Assassin, or an outsider (Edward) or you can also learn about the Creed through the Eyes of a Templar.

Charles_Phipps
12-19-2013, 06:23 PM
My imaginary perfect Assassins Creed game would have been.

Assassins Creed: Revolution.

It'd star Connor in the French Revolution and we'd have Connor recovering Haytham's Journals. Every time he does, we get to play as Haytham doing the scenes from "Forsaken."

Another would be Assassins Creed during the American Civil War with the Templars and Assassins having a truce (!!) to stop slavery in the South.

That'd be the perfect excuse.

thewhitestig
12-19-2013, 09:47 PM
I understand all of your points and I agree with many of them, however I still hold the belief that an Assassin's Creed game should be about the assassins, not about the journey of a bad man becoming a good one. I still enjoyed the game very much, it's just that every time I stole and killed I felt bad, because of the fact that I'm not fighting for a greater cause, even though the people whom I'm fighting are robbers, killers and slave traders. It just so happens that they stand between me and my fortune.


I wont even mind if we play as a Templar full-time some day. Although, as evidenced by this thread, it won't be such a popular idea and most likely would never happen. Personally, I would like that very much. The AC universe is an amazing place and I would like to revisit it again and again in many different games. Watch_Dogs is gonna take place in the AC universe so that's a win. Ubi has to develop different franchises that all tie up together into a one great story - that's how I would like to see it.

btw I think totalbiscuit was the one who said that Black Flag does not feel like an AC game at all. He speculated that they just wanted to make a pirate game, but were afraid to make it a new IP. They attached it to the AC franchise because it has a lot of weight and is a best seller.

DarktheMagister
12-19-2013, 10:14 PM
ACIV was a story about growth OP. Edward starts off as an unsavory guy and grows into someone "worthy of the robes".

I think this kind of story may be something we see more often since the whole "expanded universe" thing is getting into full swing.

aL_____eX
12-19-2013, 10:15 PM
Watch Dogs is not in the same universe with AC, unfortunately! But Far Cry is, I believe.

killzab
12-19-2013, 10:19 PM
Watch Dogs is not in the same universe with AC, unfortunately! But Far Cry is, I believe.

Both are actually

DarktheMagister
12-19-2013, 10:24 PM
Even if they said that WatchDogs isn't in the same universe as AC....they did name drop ctOS in ACIV.... and that connects them.


But I never noticed a Far Cry connection. Really killzab?

aL_____eX
12-19-2013, 10:25 PM
I tremember someone of Ubisoft saying that this whole CtOS thing in ACIV was just a joke?! Correct me if I'm wrong.:)

@DarkTheMagister: There is an Abstergo Easter Egg in Far Cry 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxMn202SViw

DarktheMagister
12-19-2013, 10:29 PM
I think someone did say it was just a joke/easter egg Alex.

But that name drop means ctOS exists in the AC Universe....which connects the two series even if that wasn't the intent.

thewhitestig
12-19-2013, 10:45 PM
Watch Dogs is not in the same universe with AC, unfortunately! But Far Cry is, I believe. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjSweq146zQ
It really is. I'm not just making that up.

pacmanate
12-19-2013, 10:50 PM
$10 Darby is reading this right now.

aL_____eX
12-19-2013, 10:53 PM
Okay then I'm sorry. Just thought I heard something else.

That Eddie Kenway thing in the Watch Dogs trailer is hilarious :o


edit: CONSPIRACY THEORY! At what time is Watch Dogs playing? Maybe the modern day protagonist in ACIV is Aiden :p Ah man... Just read it's Chicago in 2012. But Chicago brings me to Olivier, the Abstergo CEO. Why wasn't he kidnapped one year earlier??? :-(

SixKeys
12-19-2013, 10:59 PM
Okay then I'm sorry. Just thought I heard something else.

That Eddie Kenway thing in the Watch Dogs trailer is hilarious :o


edit: CONSPIRACY THEORY! At what time is Watch Dogs playing? Maybe the modern day protagonist in ACIV is Aiden :p

I'd like to think Aiden has a more exciting life than walking around an office with a tablet all day long.

adventurewomen
12-19-2013, 11:02 PM
That Eddie Kenway thing in the Watch Dogs trailer is hilarious :o
Please post the link for the trailer, I'd like to see. :)

aL_____eX
12-19-2013, 11:06 PM
thewithestig just posted, there you go... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjSweq146zQ

Ashraf's face after he's asked is even better than Eddie Kenway ;)

adventurewomen
12-19-2013, 11:10 PM
thewithestig just posted, there you go... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjSweq146zQ

Ashraf's face after he's asked is even better than Eddie Kenway ;)
Awesome thanks!

Haha! I just saw the face that Ashraf made! :D

pirate1802
12-20-2013, 05:52 AM
btw I think totalbiscuit was the one who said that Black Flag does not feel like an AC game at all. He speculated that they just wanted to make a pirate game, but were afraid to make it a new IP. They attached it to the AC franchise because it has a lot of weight and is a best seller.

When sailing around the Caribbean it sure doesn't. But while on a sneaky-sneaky mission it does. And not just that it feels like the best AC evaaar! The Lauren Prins mission for example. Classic AC-style assassination.

Farlander1991
12-20-2013, 06:39 AM
I understand all of your points and I agree with many of them, however I still hold the belief that an Assassin's Creed game should be about the assassins, not about the journey of a bad man becoming a good one.

And why can't an Assassin's Creed game be about, well, the Assassin's Creed? Which ACIV is pretty much very about? (with using Edward as a vessel to explore the Creed) Heck, AC4 is not just about the Assassin's Creed in particular, it's also about finding the philosophy of life, the Creed that suits you and that you truly desire, from Roberts 'a merry life and a short one' to Hornigolds dissatisfaction with the pirate democracy and desire for Order and Discipline to Bonnet's dreams of adventure. The theme of finding yourself and your philosophy goes through almost all threads of the narrative, and the Assassin's Creed plays a VERY big role in that.