PDA

View Full Version : Tempest V Tactical Trials



LeadSpitter_
08-18-2004, 09:33 AM
Tempest V Tactical Trials

In 1944 trials were made with the new Tempest Mk. V. The Tempest was fully compared with the nearest companion, the Typhoon IB. Tactical comparisons were also made with the Mustang III (P-51B), Spitfire XIV, Bf 109G and Fw 190. This is the report from the Air Fighting Development Unit at the R.A.F. station at Witter.
(Note: JN737, which was used for the tests, was a Tempest Mk. V Series I. version. I.e. without the spring-tab ailerons and the possibility to carry drop-tanks.)

INTRODUCTION
According to instructions from Air Ministry (D.A.T.) and from Headquarters, A.D.G.B., letter reference ADGB/S.29156/Air Tactics dated 29th February 1944 refers, tactical trials have been completed with the Tempest V. Aircraft No. JN.737 was delivered by the Hawker Aircraft Company on 8th January 1944 and was operationally loaded. The operational weight is 11,400 lbs.
In order to give a clear picture of the Tempest V it has been compared fully with its nearest stable companion, the Typhoon IB. In addition, tactical comparisons have been made with the Mustang III and Spitfire XIV. Combat trials have been carried out against the Me.109G, FW.190 (BMW)801D and suggestions made for combat with the new FW.190 (DB.603).

BRIEF DISCRIPTION
In its present form, the Tempest V is a low and medium altitude short-range fighter, armed with 4 x 20 m.m. cannon in the wings. It is fitted with a Napier Sabre II engine of approximately 2090 h.p. (same as Typhoon IB). As yet no provison has been made for the carrying of long range tanks, bombs, or R/P. In appearence it is very similar to the latest Typhoon IB except that it has a 4-bladed propeller, much thinner wings and larger tail surfaces.

THE COCKPIT
The cockpit is very similar to the Typhoon. For this reaason, and because the Tempest is easier to fly, a Typhoon pilot will take to the Tempest from the moment he is airborne.
Fuel *****:
In the Tempest the fuel ***** are different. There are three tanks - nose, main, and interspar, any of which may be selected. The main tank should be the last to be emptied, as the bottom of the tank is funnel shaped to enable the last drop to be consumed. At present there is no nose tank fitted.
Undercarriage Position Instrument:
This is the same as that on the Typhoon, with the exception that the red lights do not go out until the undercarriage doors have locked shut, in addition to the wheel being locked up.

FLYING CHARCTERISTICS
The Typhoon belonging to this Unit had the "prison bar" type of cockpit. This made the Tempest seem much easier to land and take-off. In the air, the engine of the Tempest is very smooth, considerably increasing the pilots confidence. The effect of all the flying controls is far more positve, making the Tempest as delightful to fly as its smaller contemporaries, and much more pleasant than the Typhoon. It feels more solid and easier to control than most aircraft at speeds over 400 I.A.S.
(a) The rudder is more effective in preventing skid than that of the Typhoon, although it is still heavy. Less change of trim is necessary with change of speed, but considerable change of trim is still necessary with change of engine settings.
(b) The ailerons are heavier, but more positve and effective than the Typhoon, especially at high speeds. Later models of the Tempest are to have considerably lighter ailerons.
(c) The elevators are heavy also, but a great relief from the Typhoon, as they are quite positive and there is no tendency to "wind up" in a steep turn. With increase of speed there is a nose-up tendency, easily rectified with the trimming wheel.
Formation Flying:
Similar. There is no difficulty. The clear view increases confidence.
Low Flying:
The Tempest is much easier to low-fly than the Typhoon and the Spitfire. It is thought that this is partly due to a better view, easier handing, and a sense of solidity.
Night Flying:
The Tempest is very nice to handle and easy to fly at night. The exhausts cannont be seen from the cockpit and therefore cause no embarrassment. The stability of the Tempest makes it much more pleasant to fly than the Typhoon. The cockpit lighting is satisfactory, except the the undercarriage warning light is unblinkered. This can be remedied by replacing for day and night with bulb holders. The landing lamp is not very effective. For night fighting it might be necessary to fit glare-less exhaust shrouds, as the open exhaust stubs cause a glare that can be seen on a dark clear night from 1,000 feet.
Compressibility Speeds:
Because the Tempest V increases speed so rapidly in the dive, it is not difficult to enter compressibility range at high altitudes (approaching speed of sound). This can only be done in a dive. The maximum permissible airspeeds at various heights are :

I.A.S. Height
370 30,000
410 25,000
450 20,000
490 15,000
540 10,000


The following is a summary of the R.A.E's instuctions (Report No. Aero.1906) should the speeds at height be exceeded by any type of aircraft. In the dive, the nose may suddenly tend to drop. On no account must the trimming wheel be used to prevent it doing so, but only backward pressure on the stick. When the aircraft has reached a lower altitude where the speed of sound is greater, the aircraft will come out of the compressibility range and behave normally, being pulled out of the dive. Had the trimming wheel been used to prevent the nose dropping when in the compressibility range, there would have been a very sudden nose-up tendency on coming out of the compressibility range. The result of a such a sudden change of trim is liable to cause structural failure.


TACTICAL COMPARISON WITH TYPHOON IB
http://user.tninet.se/~ytm843e/vertyphoon.jpg



The comparison is fairly close and clear because the aircraft are fairly similar, differing chiefly in wing section only. The wing loadings are similar (37.4 lbs. Tempest, and 39.7 lbs. Typhoon)

Radius of Action
The Tempest, as it stands, (no nose tank or long range tanks) has approximately the same range as the Typhoon IB without long-range tanks. The fuel and oil capacities of the Tempest are 132 gallons and 14 gallons respectively, compared with 154 gallons and 16 gallons of the Typhoon. The fact that the Tempest cruises at 15-20 mph faster than the Typhoon at the same engine settings approximately cancels out the discrepancy in fuel load. A Tempest fitted with a nose tank (30 gallons) and the 45 gallon long-range tanks (252 gallons total) would have about 1 1/4 times the range of a Typhoon IB with maximum fuel load (243 galls. total).

Speeds
According to the offical speed curves, the maximum speeds of the Tempest at all heights are 15-20 mph faster. This is also true for all intermediate settings.

Climbs
The Tempest climbs at a slightly steeper angle and at the same airspeed producing 200-300 ft. increase in maximum rate of climb. Because of its greater cleanliness, its zoom climb is much better.

Dive
For the same reasons as the zoom climb, the Tempest pulls ahead. As the speed is increased it does so more rapidly. The fact is it has the best acceleration in the dive yet seen at this Unit.

Turning Circle
Very Similar. Any difference appears to be in favour of the Typhoon. This is too slight to alter combat tactics.

Rate of Roll
The Tempest has the better rate of roll at all speeds.

Conclusions
Taken all round, the Tempest V is a great improvment on the Typhoon IB.

Search View and Rear View
The all-round view from the pilot's cockpit is excellent, especially the rear view. This has been made possible by the "tear drop" hood which gives the pilot a better all-round unobstucted view than any other aircraft- Hun or friendly. It is also fitted to some Typhoons.

Sighting View and Fire-Power
The aircraft is fitted with the Mark II sight. The installation should be modified in some cases to produce direct reflection on to the windshield. The sighting view is about the same as the Typhoon, being approximately 4 1/2 degrees. It is also fitted to some Typhoons.
The Tempest is a steady gun platform. Air-to-ground the aircraft has the same slight tendency as the Typhoon to fly into the ground, being not so good as the Spitfire in this respect. The guns cannot be depressed any lower than parallel to the datum, so this defect cannot be overcome.

Armour
Of a similar design and installation as on the Typhoon aircraft, with the exception that the head-piece is a trifle larger in size.

Thickness of headpiece - 9 mm.
Thickness of back pieces 6 mm.
All fuel tanks are self-sealing. Bullit-proof windscreen is of "Dry-cell" type. Front side of outer gun ammunition tanks have a piece of 1/8" armour plate.


COMBAT TRIALS AGAINST SPITFIRE XIV
http://user.tninet.se/~ytm843e/verspit.jpg


Range and Endurance
Rough comparisons have been made at the maximum continuous cruising conditions of each aircraft (3150 revs. +4 1/2 lb/boost Tempest, 2400 revs. +7 lb. boost Spitfire XIV).
The best heights of each aircraft are very different, producing the following results:
The Tempest is faster and goes further up to 10,000 ft. From 10,000 - 20,000 ft. both aircraft cruise at about 300 I.A.S. Above 20,000 ft. the Tempest cannot maintain its high cruising speed and no comparisons can be made with the Spitfire XIV which increases its ground speed and range up to 29,000 ft.
These comparisons remain the same with the full fuel loads at present available (2 x 45 gall. long-range tank Tempest, 1 x 90 gall. long-range tank Spitfire).
Maximum Speed
From 0 - 10,000 ft. the Tempest is 20 mph faster than the Spitfire XIV. There is little to choose until 22,000 ft. when the Spitfire XIV becomes 30-40 mph faster, the Tempest's operational ceiling being about 30,000 ft. as opposed to the Spitfire XIV's 40,000 ft.

Maximum Climb
The Tempest is not in the same class as the Spitfire XIV. The Tempest V however, has a considerably better zoom climb, holding a higher speed throughout the manoeuvre. If the climb is prolonged until climbing speed is reached, then, of course the Spitfire XIV will begin to catch and pull ahead.

Dive
The Tempest gains on the Spitfire XIV.

Turning Circle
The Spitfire XVI easily out-turns the Tempest.

Rate of Roll
The Spitfire XIV rolls faster at speeds below 300 mph, but definitely more slowly at speeds greater than 350 mph.

Conclusions
The tactical attributes of the two aircraft being completely different, they require a separate handling technique in combat. For this reason, Typhoon squadrons should convert to Tempests, and Spitfire squadrons to Spitfire XIV's, and definitely never vice-versa, or each aircraft's particular advantages would not be appreciated. Regarding performance, if correctly handled, the Tempest is better below about 20,000 feet and the Spitfire XIV above that height.


COMBAT TRIALS AGAINST FW.190 (BMW.801D)
http://user.tninet.se/~ytm843e/verfw190.jpg



Maximum Speed
The Tempest is nearly 50 mph faster at all heights. It is estimated that the Tempest V may be very slightly faster than the new FW.190 (DB.603) up to 20,000 ft.

Climb
Except below 5,000 feet the FW.190 (BMW.801D) has a slightly better maximum rate of climb. Because of the Tempest V's speed and clean lines however, the Tempest has a markedly better zoom climb, where the speed is kept high. Against the new FW.190 (DB.603) it is estimated that the Tempest will have a markedly superior climb below 5,000 feet, but a similar maximum climb above that height.

Dive
The Tempest pulls away rapidly in a dive from all heights.

Turning Circles
There is very little difference in turning circles between the two aircraft. If anything a very slight advantage lies with the Tempest.

Rate of Roll
The Tempest V cannot compare with the FW 190.

Conclusions
Similar tactics should be used against the FW.190 as used by the Typhoon squadrons, advantage being taken of high speed. Such handling should prove most effective. The Tempest has an exceptional ground height performance even estimated against the FW.190 (DB.603).


COMBAT TRIALS AGAINST Bf.109G
http://user.tninet.se/~ytm843e/verbf109.jpg



Maximum Speed
The Tempest V is 40 - 50 mph faster up to 20,000 feet when the difference in speed rapidly diminishes.

Climb
The Tempest is behind the Bf.109G at all heights, but being almost similar below 5,000 feet. The Tempest is only slightly better in a zoom climb if the two aircraft start at the same speed, but if the Tempest has an initial advantage, it will hold this advantage easily providing the speed is kept over 250 mph.

Dive
Initial acceleration of the Tempest is not marked, but a prolonged dive brings the Tempest well ahead.

Turning Circle
The Tempest is slightly better, the Bf.109G being embarrassed by its slots opening near the stall.

Rate of Roll
At normal speeds there is nothing in it, but at speeds over 350 mph the Tempest could get away from the Bf.109G by making a quick change of bank and direction.

Conclusions
In the attack, the Tempest can always follow the Bf.109 except in slow, steep climb. In the combat area the Tempest should maintain a high speed, and in defense may do anything except a climb at slow speed.


COMBAT TRIALS AGAINST MUSTANG III (P51-B)
http://user.tninet.se/~ytm843e/vermustang.jpg



Range and Endurance
By comparison the Tempest without nose tank or long-range tanks, has no range. When the extra fuel is available it should have a little more than half that of the Mustang III fitted with two 62,5 gallon long-range tanks, but without the extra 71 gallon body tank.

Maximum Speed
The Tempest is 15-20 mph faster up to 15,000 ft. There is then no choice to 24,000 ft., when the Mustang rapidly pulls ahead, being about 30 mph faster at 30,000 ft.

Climb
These compare directly with the results of the speed tests. At similar performance height Tempest has a better zoom climb.


Turning Circle
The Tempest is not quite as good as the Mustang III.

Rate of Roll
The Tempest is not so good. This attribute may be improved upon later aircraft with re-designed ailerons.

Conclusions
The Mustang III has superior range of action and general performance above 24,000 ft. Conclusion should not be drawn below this height, but the Tempest has much better rate of climb and speed below 10,000 ft.

http://img14.photobucket.com/albums/v43/leadspitter/LSIG1.gif

http://img14.photobucket.com/albums/v43/leadspitter/LSIG1.gif

LeadSpitter_
08-18-2004, 09:33 AM
Tempest V Tactical Trials

In 1944 trials were made with the new Tempest Mk. V. The Tempest was fully compared with the nearest companion, the Typhoon IB. Tactical comparisons were also made with the Mustang III (P-51B), Spitfire XIV, Bf 109G and Fw 190. This is the report from the Air Fighting Development Unit at the R.A.F. station at Witter.
(Note: JN737, which was used for the tests, was a Tempest Mk. V Series I. version. I.e. without the spring-tab ailerons and the possibility to carry drop-tanks.)

INTRODUCTION
According to instructions from Air Ministry (D.A.T.) and from Headquarters, A.D.G.B., letter reference ADGB/S.29156/Air Tactics dated 29th February 1944 refers, tactical trials have been completed with the Tempest V. Aircraft No. JN.737 was delivered by the Hawker Aircraft Company on 8th January 1944 and was operationally loaded. The operational weight is 11,400 lbs.
In order to give a clear picture of the Tempest V it has been compared fully with its nearest stable companion, the Typhoon IB. In addition, tactical comparisons have been made with the Mustang III and Spitfire XIV. Combat trials have been carried out against the Me.109G, FW.190 (BMW)801D and suggestions made for combat with the new FW.190 (DB.603).

BRIEF DISCRIPTION
In its present form, the Tempest V is a low and medium altitude short-range fighter, armed with 4 x 20 m.m. cannon in the wings. It is fitted with a Napier Sabre II engine of approximately 2090 h.p. (same as Typhoon IB). As yet no provison has been made for the carrying of long range tanks, bombs, or R/P. In appearence it is very similar to the latest Typhoon IB except that it has a 4-bladed propeller, much thinner wings and larger tail surfaces.

THE COCKPIT
The cockpit is very similar to the Typhoon. For this reaason, and because the Tempest is easier to fly, a Typhoon pilot will take to the Tempest from the moment he is airborne.
Fuel *****:
In the Tempest the fuel ***** are different. There are three tanks - nose, main, and interspar, any of which may be selected. The main tank should be the last to be emptied, as the bottom of the tank is funnel shaped to enable the last drop to be consumed. At present there is no nose tank fitted.
Undercarriage Position Instrument:
This is the same as that on the Typhoon, with the exception that the red lights do not go out until the undercarriage doors have locked shut, in addition to the wheel being locked up.

FLYING CHARCTERISTICS
The Typhoon belonging to this Unit had the "prison bar" type of cockpit. This made the Tempest seem much easier to land and take-off. In the air, the engine of the Tempest is very smooth, considerably increasing the pilots confidence. The effect of all the flying controls is far more positve, making the Tempest as delightful to fly as its smaller contemporaries, and much more pleasant than the Typhoon. It feels more solid and easier to control than most aircraft at speeds over 400 I.A.S.
(a) The rudder is more effective in preventing skid than that of the Typhoon, although it is still heavy. Less change of trim is necessary with change of speed, but considerable change of trim is still necessary with change of engine settings.
(b) The ailerons are heavier, but more positve and effective than the Typhoon, especially at high speeds. Later models of the Tempest are to have considerably lighter ailerons.
(c) The elevators are heavy also, but a great relief from the Typhoon, as they are quite positive and there is no tendency to "wind up" in a steep turn. With increase of speed there is a nose-up tendency, easily rectified with the trimming wheel.
Formation Flying:
Similar. There is no difficulty. The clear view increases confidence.
Low Flying:
The Tempest is much easier to low-fly than the Typhoon and the Spitfire. It is thought that this is partly due to a better view, easier handing, and a sense of solidity.
Night Flying:
The Tempest is very nice to handle and easy to fly at night. The exhausts cannont be seen from the cockpit and therefore cause no embarrassment. The stability of the Tempest makes it much more pleasant to fly than the Typhoon. The cockpit lighting is satisfactory, except the the undercarriage warning light is unblinkered. This can be remedied by replacing for day and night with bulb holders. The landing lamp is not very effective. For night fighting it might be necessary to fit glare-less exhaust shrouds, as the open exhaust stubs cause a glare that can be seen on a dark clear night from 1,000 feet.
Compressibility Speeds:
Because the Tempest V increases speed so rapidly in the dive, it is not difficult to enter compressibility range at high altitudes (approaching speed of sound). This can only be done in a dive. The maximum permissible airspeeds at various heights are :

I.A.S. Height
370 30,000
410 25,000
450 20,000
490 15,000
540 10,000


The following is a summary of the R.A.E's instuctions (Report No. Aero.1906) should the speeds at height be exceeded by any type of aircraft. In the dive, the nose may suddenly tend to drop. On no account must the trimming wheel be used to prevent it doing so, but only backward pressure on the stick. When the aircraft has reached a lower altitude where the speed of sound is greater, the aircraft will come out of the compressibility range and behave normally, being pulled out of the dive. Had the trimming wheel been used to prevent the nose dropping when in the compressibility range, there would have been a very sudden nose-up tendency on coming out of the compressibility range. The result of a such a sudden change of trim is liable to cause structural failure.


TACTICAL COMPARISON WITH TYPHOON IB
http://user.tninet.se/~ytm843e/vertyphoon.jpg



The comparison is fairly close and clear because the aircraft are fairly similar, differing chiefly in wing section only. The wing loadings are similar (37.4 lbs. Tempest, and 39.7 lbs. Typhoon)

Radius of Action
The Tempest, as it stands, (no nose tank or long range tanks) has approximately the same range as the Typhoon IB without long-range tanks. The fuel and oil capacities of the Tempest are 132 gallons and 14 gallons respectively, compared with 154 gallons and 16 gallons of the Typhoon. The fact that the Tempest cruises at 15-20 mph faster than the Typhoon at the same engine settings approximately cancels out the discrepancy in fuel load. A Tempest fitted with a nose tank (30 gallons) and the 45 gallon long-range tanks (252 gallons total) would have about 1 1/4 times the range of a Typhoon IB with maximum fuel load (243 galls. total).

Speeds
According to the offical speed curves, the maximum speeds of the Tempest at all heights are 15-20 mph faster. This is also true for all intermediate settings.

Climbs
The Tempest climbs at a slightly steeper angle and at the same airspeed producing 200-300 ft. increase in maximum rate of climb. Because of its greater cleanliness, its zoom climb is much better.

Dive
For the same reasons as the zoom climb, the Tempest pulls ahead. As the speed is increased it does so more rapidly. The fact is it has the best acceleration in the dive yet seen at this Unit.

Turning Circle
Very Similar. Any difference appears to be in favour of the Typhoon. This is too slight to alter combat tactics.

Rate of Roll
The Tempest has the better rate of roll at all speeds.

Conclusions
Taken all round, the Tempest V is a great improvment on the Typhoon IB.

Search View and Rear View
The all-round view from the pilot's cockpit is excellent, especially the rear view. This has been made possible by the "tear drop" hood which gives the pilot a better all-round unobstucted view than any other aircraft- Hun or friendly. It is also fitted to some Typhoons.

Sighting View and Fire-Power
The aircraft is fitted with the Mark II sight. The installation should be modified in some cases to produce direct reflection on to the windshield. The sighting view is about the same as the Typhoon, being approximately 4 1/2 degrees. It is also fitted to some Typhoons.
The Tempest is a steady gun platform. Air-to-ground the aircraft has the same slight tendency as the Typhoon to fly into the ground, being not so good as the Spitfire in this respect. The guns cannot be depressed any lower than parallel to the datum, so this defect cannot be overcome.

Armour
Of a similar design and installation as on the Typhoon aircraft, with the exception that the head-piece is a trifle larger in size.

Thickness of headpiece - 9 mm.
Thickness of back pieces 6 mm.
All fuel tanks are self-sealing. Bullit-proof windscreen is of "Dry-cell" type. Front side of outer gun ammunition tanks have a piece of 1/8" armour plate.


COMBAT TRIALS AGAINST SPITFIRE XIV
http://user.tninet.se/~ytm843e/verspit.jpg


Range and Endurance
Rough comparisons have been made at the maximum continuous cruising conditions of each aircraft (3150 revs. +4 1/2 lb/boost Tempest, 2400 revs. +7 lb. boost Spitfire XIV).
The best heights of each aircraft are very different, producing the following results:
The Tempest is faster and goes further up to 10,000 ft. From 10,000 - 20,000 ft. both aircraft cruise at about 300 I.A.S. Above 20,000 ft. the Tempest cannot maintain its high cruising speed and no comparisons can be made with the Spitfire XIV which increases its ground speed and range up to 29,000 ft.
These comparisons remain the same with the full fuel loads at present available (2 x 45 gall. long-range tank Tempest, 1 x 90 gall. long-range tank Spitfire).
Maximum Speed
From 0 - 10,000 ft. the Tempest is 20 mph faster than the Spitfire XIV. There is little to choose until 22,000 ft. when the Spitfire XIV becomes 30-40 mph faster, the Tempest's operational ceiling being about 30,000 ft. as opposed to the Spitfire XIV's 40,000 ft.

Maximum Climb
The Tempest is not in the same class as the Spitfire XIV. The Tempest V however, has a considerably better zoom climb, holding a higher speed throughout the manoeuvre. If the climb is prolonged until climbing speed is reached, then, of course the Spitfire XIV will begin to catch and pull ahead.

Dive
The Tempest gains on the Spitfire XIV.

Turning Circle
The Spitfire XVI easily out-turns the Tempest.

Rate of Roll
The Spitfire XIV rolls faster at speeds below 300 mph, but definitely more slowly at speeds greater than 350 mph.

Conclusions
The tactical attributes of the two aircraft being completely different, they require a separate handling technique in combat. For this reason, Typhoon squadrons should convert to Tempests, and Spitfire squadrons to Spitfire XIV's, and definitely never vice-versa, or each aircraft's particular advantages would not be appreciated. Regarding performance, if correctly handled, the Tempest is better below about 20,000 feet and the Spitfire XIV above that height.


COMBAT TRIALS AGAINST FW.190 (BMW.801D)
http://user.tninet.se/~ytm843e/verfw190.jpg



Maximum Speed
The Tempest is nearly 50 mph faster at all heights. It is estimated that the Tempest V may be very slightly faster than the new FW.190 (DB.603) up to 20,000 ft.

Climb
Except below 5,000 feet the FW.190 (BMW.801D) has a slightly better maximum rate of climb. Because of the Tempest V's speed and clean lines however, the Tempest has a markedly better zoom climb, where the speed is kept high. Against the new FW.190 (DB.603) it is estimated that the Tempest will have a markedly superior climb below 5,000 feet, but a similar maximum climb above that height.

Dive
The Tempest pulls away rapidly in a dive from all heights.

Turning Circles
There is very little difference in turning circles between the two aircraft. If anything a very slight advantage lies with the Tempest.

Rate of Roll
The Tempest V cannot compare with the FW 190.

Conclusions
Similar tactics should be used against the FW.190 as used by the Typhoon squadrons, advantage being taken of high speed. Such handling should prove most effective. The Tempest has an exceptional ground height performance even estimated against the FW.190 (DB.603).


COMBAT TRIALS AGAINST Bf.109G
http://user.tninet.se/~ytm843e/verbf109.jpg



Maximum Speed
The Tempest V is 40 - 50 mph faster up to 20,000 feet when the difference in speed rapidly diminishes.

Climb
The Tempest is behind the Bf.109G at all heights, but being almost similar below 5,000 feet. The Tempest is only slightly better in a zoom climb if the two aircraft start at the same speed, but if the Tempest has an initial advantage, it will hold this advantage easily providing the speed is kept over 250 mph.

Dive
Initial acceleration of the Tempest is not marked, but a prolonged dive brings the Tempest well ahead.

Turning Circle
The Tempest is slightly better, the Bf.109G being embarrassed by its slots opening near the stall.

Rate of Roll
At normal speeds there is nothing in it, but at speeds over 350 mph the Tempest could get away from the Bf.109G by making a quick change of bank and direction.

Conclusions
In the attack, the Tempest can always follow the Bf.109 except in slow, steep climb. In the combat area the Tempest should maintain a high speed, and in defense may do anything except a climb at slow speed.


COMBAT TRIALS AGAINST MUSTANG III (P51-B)
http://user.tninet.se/~ytm843e/vermustang.jpg



Range and Endurance
By comparison the Tempest without nose tank or long-range tanks, has no range. When the extra fuel is available it should have a little more than half that of the Mustang III fitted with two 62,5 gallon long-range tanks, but without the extra 71 gallon body tank.

Maximum Speed
The Tempest is 15-20 mph faster up to 15,000 ft. There is then no choice to 24,000 ft., when the Mustang rapidly pulls ahead, being about 30 mph faster at 30,000 ft.

Climb
These compare directly with the results of the speed tests. At similar performance height Tempest has a better zoom climb.


Turning Circle
The Tempest is not quite as good as the Mustang III.

Rate of Roll
The Tempest is not so good. This attribute may be improved upon later aircraft with re-designed ailerons.

Conclusions
The Mustang III has superior range of action and general performance above 24,000 ft. Conclusion should not be drawn below this height, but the Tempest has much better rate of climb and speed below 10,000 ft.

http://img14.photobucket.com/albums/v43/leadspitter/LSIG1.gif

http://img14.photobucket.com/albums/v43/leadspitter/LSIG1.gif

WOLFMondo
08-18-2004, 10:16 AM
I think the BF109G in that trial is reputed to have wing gun pods. However it would be quite short sighted of the RAF to hold trials against an aircraft not typical of the type it would be fighting against.

I wonder if there are combat trials with the more common series II Tempest V?

http://bill.nickdafish.com/sig/mondo.jpg
Wolfgaming.net. Where the Gameplay is teamplay (http://www.wolfgaming.net)
Home of WGNDedicated

p1ngu666
08-18-2004, 10:53 AM
nice http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

if u stop ignoreing me, ill send u the pdf copy of micheal moore is a stupid white man http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg
<123_GWood_JG123> NO SPAM!

Arm_slinger
08-18-2004, 11:07 AM
Hmmm the temp isnt as manoeuverable as i thought it was. The BnZ tytpes among us should be fine at flying it http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Very helpful info, thanks http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
242Sqn_Kye on HL

"Target for Tonight" the definitive night bombing simulation ever, featuring the RAF's Bomber Command.

www.nightbomber.com/forums (http://www.nightbomber.com/forums)
Also the home of 242 Squadron

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v371/Kyebromley/untitled4.bmp

Kurfurst__
08-18-2004, 11:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
I think the BF109G in that trial is reputed to have wing gun pods. However it would be quite short sighted of the RAF to hold trials against an aircraft not typical of the type it would be fighting against.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nope, against the Tempest they only tested a 'clean' 109G-2 w/o gunpods. They obviously weren`t very familiar with the plane, see the comments on slats, so with very high probability they greatly understate the 109`s turning capability, ep. if you compare it relative to the FW 190A, turning required proper understanding of the handling of the plane, the rest could be tested largely w/o that.

The story goes as they captured a nightfighter G-6 equipped with gunpods during 1944, which mislanded in Britain. They used it to test against UK/US a/c, like the P-51, Spits. However they broke the G-6 before the trials were completed, so previous trials between a G-2 and a Tempest V were added to the same report to give a full picture.

So: Tempest V was vs. a clean G-2, all the rest were tested vs. a 'gunboat' G-6.

http://www.x-plane.org/users/isegrim/nw2004set7.jpg

We're walking in the air
We're floating in the midnight sky
And everyone who sees us greets us as we fly

p1ngu666
08-18-2004, 11:14 AM
hm
gunther rall said in interview he backed off when the slats popped out, and he was experten http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg
&lt;123_GWood_JG123&gt; NO SPAM!

WOLFMondo
08-18-2004, 11:21 AM
Given how the G2 turns in FB and the remarks about the Tempest and other planes turning circles in the trials I can't help but think (Ok, im sorry, I rarely whine or complain) the G2 is a little (I hate this word) overmodelled in the turn.

Still, it shows the Tempest to be an awesome plane and very much the British equivilent to the FW190 D9. I very much hope Oleg puts this as a flyble. Its going to make 44+ servers a refreshing experiance for both sides.

http://bill.nickdafish.com/sig/mondo.jpg
Wolfgaming.net. Where the Gameplay is teamplay (http://www.wolfgaming.net)
Home of WGNDedicated

FbusterMk3
08-18-2004, 12:28 PM
Nice post,

COMBAT TRIALS AGAINST FW.190 (BMW.801D)
Dive
The Tempest pulls away rapidly in a dive from all heights.
WOW! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

thought this was an interesting paragraph:

The Tempest is a steady gun platform. Air-to-ground the aircraft has the same slight tendency as the Typhoon to fly into the ground, being not so good as the Spitfire in this respect. The guns cannot be depressed any lower than parallel to the datum, so this defect cannot be overcome.

Hadn't thought about this before but downward pointing guns on a ground attack aircraft would be useful http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

Surprisingly good results for the 109G, still no excuse for kurfurst to jump on his bandwagon.
The 109 in this sim is a very good aircraft but I suspect in real life it was an uncomfortable, tiring and slightly wild ride (not to mention ground handling).

The point of combat trials against a P51 escapes me, unless Beaverbrook was thinking of selling Mustangs to the Germans as a side line!

VW-IceFire
08-18-2004, 04:06 PM
Apparently the Tempest was even more streamlined (despite the "chin") and heavy so thats why it was able to out dive the FW190 and virtually all of the aircraft it tested against.

Its not a very manuverable plane but its very modest in everything (and much better than the Typhoon). Roll rate, even on the Series 1 aircraft, was better than the Typhoon by a long shot.

I agree with Mondo...hope its in, should provide a refreshing experience. Especially if the planeset is limited (in a scenario dogfight or coop).

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/tmv-sig1.jpg
RAF No 92 Squadron
"Either fight or die"

Hunde_3.JG51
08-18-2004, 04:24 PM
-"Tempest was nearly 50mph faster than the FW-190A at all heights." Since max speed of Tempest was 435mph this means max speed of FW-190A was around 385mph. This would be about the top speed of a FW-190A in 1941, not 1944.

-In test FW-190A had better sustained climb than Tempest, this doesn't seem right either.

-According to this test the 109G out-dived the FW-190A. One of the things that most impressed new pilots of the 190A was its dive acceleration when switching from 109F. Also, according to Eric Brown's test the 190A had superb initial dive acceleration.

-According to this test FW-190A slightly out-turns Bf-109G. The fact that it is even near the 109 is much different than in-game, even with gunpods.

http://www.brooksart.com/Ontheprowl.jpg

Formerly Kyrule2
http://www.jg51.com/

VW-IceFire
08-18-2004, 07:47 PM
I think their 109G in the test was having serious troubles. That baffled me for a while...but I know the 109G is a better turner than all except the Spitfire (and the XIV would be probably be riding stalls very heavily to maintain its turn rate) or maybe the Mustang but that depends on relative energy.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/tmv-sig1.jpg
RAF No 92 Squadron
"Either fight or die"

horseback
08-18-2004, 08:37 PM
In reference to the German fighters used in the test, we would do well to remember that regardless of the condition they were in when they entered Allied custody, they probably had deteriorated steadily after that. Unlike their German counterparts, they lacked a steady 'rain' of spare parts for their examples of enemy aircraft. Lacking maintenance manuals and help from BMW or Daimler tech reps, it seems unlikely to me that even the cream of the RAF's technical establishment would be unable to match the maintenance records of the LW's frontline units, which rarely approached 70% availability of the aircraft they had on hand after 1943.

This may also explain some of the descrepencies we note with the 109 in this (and other) tests; if you're the pilot of an aircraft you know to be in marginal/poor condition, and relatively unfamiliar to you (lack of spare parts & serviceability problems leads to fewer flying hours), are you going to push the aircraft to its limits, even assuming that you know how? Throw in the almost universal RAF disdain for fighters that didn't handle like a Spitfire (most of the American types available to them for example), and your test pilot may lack the desired aggressiveness on at least some of the tests.

It does seem to be a constant that until the end of the war, when a good cross-section of the final operational German fighters were tested while in good condition, with good references and technical assistance on hand, that Axis fighters' speed and overall performance were generally underestimated.

cheers

horseback

"Here's your new Mustangs, boys. You can learn to fly'em on the way to the target. Cheers!" -LTCOL Don Blakeslee, 4th FG CO, February 27th, 1944

WOLFMondo
08-19-2004, 12:40 AM
While I can see what your saying I would still strongly doubt the RAF would lie to themselves about the LW planes performance, thats self defeating and hardly somthing an airforce would do to itself. Maybe if these we published at the time for enemy & public consumption, like the OTT kill claims by both sides it would make sense.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hunde_3.JG51:
-"Tempest was nearly 50mph faster than the FW-190A at all heights." Since max speed of Tempest was 435mph this means max speed of FW-190A was around 385mph. This would be about the top speed of a FW-190A in 1941, not 1944.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That maximum speed is a 17,500ft. Thats why the Tempest was so deadly, it didn't have to be at 30,000ft to get the most out of its engine and airframe. It does also mention its only slightly faster than the new FW190 with a DB603http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Still, its compared to fully maintained Mustang III's and Spitfire XIV's which are both excellent aircraft and have very good performance. The Tempest out performs them both below 10,000ft and is good for another 14,000ft.

http://bill.nickdafish.com/sig/mondo.jpg
Wolfgaming.net. Where the Gameplay is teamplay (http://www.wolfgaming.net)
Home of WGNDedicated

[This message was edited by WOLFMondo on Wed August 18 2004 at 11:52 PM.]

WTE_Galway
08-19-2004, 12:48 AM
tempest and typhoons were real scud runners

whats interesting is the tempest is rated as better than a mkXIV spit up to 20,000 feet (6500 metres) .. i was aware that it was a far better plane at low level but had assumed "low level" was down below 10,000 feet or so

Hunde_3.JG51
08-19-2004, 01:05 AM
Wolf, I realize the Tempest was fastest at around 18,000 feet but even the FW-190A-8 was capable of 408mph at 20,000 feet. This is far from "50mph at all altitudes."

I'm not saying the RAF is lying but there are certainly questions that this test raises, such as those I mentioned. Again, I'm just pointing out how inconsistent or conflicting test results can be.

http://www.brooksart.com/Ontheprowl.jpg

Formerly Kyrule2
http://www.jg51.com/

WOLFMondo
08-19-2004, 01:31 AM
So its more like 30mph at all altitudes!http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I agree there are discrepancies there so its probably best to go by the comparisons with the Allied aircraft and take the luftwaffe comparisons lightly. It does very well against the Spitfire XIV however and that plane was one of the best fighters of WW2.

Still, it makes sense that the Luftwaffe were ordered not to take on the Tempest below 20,000ft from those trials.

http://bill.nickdafish.com/sig/mondo.jpg
Wolfgaming.net. Where the Gameplay is teamplay (http://www.wolfgaming.net)
Home of WGNDedicated

DIRTY-MAC
08-19-2004, 07:16 AM
One thing I would like to discuss is the arnament of the Tempest; It should be among the deadliest in the game.