PDA

View Full Version : bring back the dual counter assassinations and bring back our weapons



rengokum
11-16-2013, 04:21 PM
okay i get it, this is a new type of assassins creed where naval combat is the key but did ubisoft forget to make the main character a bad-***? apparently Edward isn't as cool as Connor because he can hardly do those super flashy dual counter assassinations. i realize this game was made by a different team than assassins creed III but does that really mean that you have to take out one of the main things that made AC III so damn enjoyable. ill be honest i play assassins creed games for the combat and story. but when you take out a huge part of the combat such as most of the weapon equips and the ability to perform dual counters, the game's combat just feels empty and that is not a good thing because the combat in assassins creed is what makes the games so unique. the ability to pull of flashy combos with flawless execution and still looking like the assassin in the original cinematic trailer for that particular game.

this is why we play these games in the first place. to feel like a bad-*** but when i realized i only had 2 melee options for combat i kinda felt like altair from the first assassins creed. sadly he had more weapon choices than Edward so really this games combat was a step backwards in terms of variety. do you realize how many times i wanted to perform dual counters while boarding a ship and i know im not the only one who misses these awesome counter kills.

ill forgive ubisoft this time but if they pull this crap with the next game they are seriously gonna lose some fans. they need to patch this so we can actually perform the kills. maybe add some more weapons in. if you believe they can bring these things back into Assassins creed IV black flag then starting posting these complaints on the forums. i mean come on everyone called out ubisoft for taking off Connors hood at the end of AC III and what did we do? we complained because we didn't want to see mohawk Connor we want to see the character (some of us know and love) but with Edward i just cant feel that because his combat options are so limited. im sure if we build up enough people they will realize there mistake. until then and i hope it comes soon, keep killing assassins:cool:

DetroitPlaya
11-16-2013, 04:22 PM
You can easily Dual-Counter... :/

roostersrule2
11-16-2013, 04:24 PM
Dual counters are still there, I've yet to encounter one though.

AssassinHMS
11-16-2013, 05:10 PM
You have the hidden blade. That is more than enough for an assassin. However I agree with you on "the combat feels empty". Indeed, there is no challenge. It isn't even combat, it's a slaughter. However I don't play AC for combat, I play it, among other things, to avoid it altogether, to be a blade in the crowd.
As for the flashy combos and flawless executions you can have that in every other game out there, AC isn't about that.
I also want to add that being a badass is in a person's personality. The act of killing dozens or even hundreds of other human beings, just for the sake or “fun” of it, is pathetic and unrealistic but definitely not "badass”.

rengokum
11-16-2013, 05:49 PM
the last time i checked assassins creed is all about combat. ever since assassins creed III changed the combat system of previous games, the series can hardly be called a "stealthy assassins creed" title. so being a blade in the crowd is all well and good but it hasn't been done properly since the first Assassins creed. now that game knew how to handle stealth the new ones are purely action adventure with assassinations thrown into the mix.the whole "blade in the crowd" element is gone and is most likely not coming back. now ubisoft is just focused on the combat and since they have been mainly focusing on combat over stealth for the past few games and i dont see that stealth element coming back anytime soon unless they reboot the series entirely (which i very much doubt)

and being a badass is in one's opinion. and i know im not the only one who goes around killing guards just for the fun of it. because that's what you do now. you don't stalk rooftops just to kill the sentry scouting the area you stay on the ground and provoke as much hostility as you can and yes my friend if you can perfect the combat (and lets be honest everyone is a pro at these game's) than you are in fact a badass.

AssassinHMS
11-16-2013, 06:27 PM
the last time i checked assassins creed is all about combat. ever since assassins creed III changed the combat system of previous games, the series can hardly be called a "stealthy assassins creed" title.
I agree. But don’t you think that AC, the actual idea and not what Ubisoft made it out to be, is about the tension you feel while hiding in the shadows stalking your prey, about eavesdropping and spying on people and about taking your time to think and plan your move?
I think this is what Ubisoft should’ve accomplished with AC by now instead of destroying and adulterating what it stands for.


so being a blade in the crowd is all well and good but it hasn't been done properly since the first Assassins creed. now that game knew how to handle stealth the new ones are purely action adventure with assassinations thrown into the mix.the whole "blade in the crowd" element is gone and is most likely not coming back. now ubisoft is just focused on the combat and since they have been mainly focusing on combat over stealth for the past few games and i dont see that stealth element coming back anytime soon unless they reboot the series entirely (which i very much doubt)
Sadly, I agree. You know what? I like how cunning you are, too many people here don’t even understand or acknowledge what you’re saying.


and being a badass is in one's opinion. and i know im not the only one who goes around killing guards just for the fun of it. because that's what you do now. you don't stalk rooftops just to kill the sentry scouting the area you stay on the ground and provoke as much hostility as you can and yes my friend if you can perfect the combat (and lets be honest everyone is a pro at these game's) than you are in fact a badass.
I don’t do it now since, now, I don’t buy their games until they prove they can handle this franchise properly.
But I have to ask, don’t you think that a “real” AC would be much better than these adulterated games? An Assassin’s Creed where you can’t fight more than 3 or 4 enemies at once, where stealth is filled with tension and escaping is breathtaking? A real stealth focused AC game that invites the player to push his skills and think before making a move. Notice that I’m not saying it is necessarily hard. Sure you can’t fight like Batman but, if you find yourself in a tight spot, you can always escape (dodge enemies attacks or bump civilians who are carrying objects to knock over nearby pursuers) and resume stealth. If you ask me, there is nothing better than being a blade in the crowd, counting only on the hidden blade and on your skill.

pyrotechnick777
11-16-2013, 06:37 PM
Dual counters are still there, I've yet to encounter one though.

Yeah the double counters are still in the game but they are less frequent than in AC3, Out of doing the campaign and about 80% of the side missions (and the occasional guard slaughtering)
I've only encountered about 2 double counters.

Landruner
11-16-2013, 08:53 PM
More weapons for more strategy and tactic adds always a big replay value especially for AC2/ACB/ACR... I always consider that it is time to let the player pick the weapons they love (removing, switching ability and several weapons and arsenal to choice from) and let them play the way the love. The ones who don't want to do that, well they have the choice of not doing that and play the game as it is.

rengokum
11-16-2013, 09:42 PM
I agree. But donít you think that AC, the actual idea and not what Ubisoft made it out to be, is about the tension you feel while hiding in the shadows stalking your prey, about eavesdropping and spying on people and about taking your time to think and plan your move?
I think this is what Ubisoft shouldíve accomplished with AC by now instead of destroying and adulterating what it stands for.

I know what your saying and i understand where your coming from. thats exactly what the first game was and why none of the new games including black flag can ever even compare to the stealth element Assassins creed had. nothing was more stealthy than hiding amongst a group of monks and waiting for them to tread into your prey's path and then the sweet embrace of your enemy against your hidden blade. boy i miss it. no game did it better.

Sadly, I agree. You know what? I like how cunning you are, too many people here donít even understand or acknowledge what youíre saying.

that is because most of the people defend the game for what it stands for now other than what it once was. a edge of your seat stealth/action game for mature players. that's why people don't like the original so much, its because of how you actually had to do work to get your target. now all you do is tail your target for 10 min then you either assassinate him or you get caught by your target and have to restart it all. ill be honest there were more tailing missions in assassins creed IV than all of the games combined. now i wouldn't mind these missions if they actually meant for something but they don't you just follow these people and hope to god you don't lose them. (sigh) i miss sitting on benches and eavesdropping

I donít do it now since, now, I donít buy their games until they prove they can handle this franchise properly.
But I have to ask, donít you think that a ďrealĒ AC would be much better than these adulterated games? An Assassinís Creed where you canít fight more than 3 or 4 enemies at once, where stealth is filled with tension and escaping is breathtaking? A real stealth focused AC game that invites the player to push his skills and think before making a move. Notice that Iím not saying it is necessarily hard. Sure you canít fight like Batman but, if you find yourself in a tight spot, you can always escape (dodge enemies attacks or bump civilians who are carrying objects to knock over nearby pursuers) and resume stealth. If you ask me, there is nothing better than being a blade in the crowd, counting only on the hidden blade and on your skill.

i can see why you have given up on the series and lots of times i ask myself why i still play these games and my answer is i like playing as a new assassin and being enveloped in their history. and nobody does it better than ubisoft. sadly ubisoft is becoming like call of duty and madden and all of those other games that get yearly releases and as much as i love playing assassins creed they really need to go back to their roots or make something completely different that follows the old assassins creed play style. we can only hope

AssassinHMS
11-16-2013, 09:43 PM
More weapons for more strategy and tactic adds always a big replay value especially for AC2/ACB/ACR... I always consider that it is time to let the player pick the weapons they love (removing, switching ability and several weapons and arsenal to choice from) and let them play the way the love. The ones who don't want to do that, well they have the choice of not doing that and play the game as it is.

I’ve always wondered why Ubisoft never took the time to address such simple and “important” issues. Initially, I thought it was because they wanted to show off their additions (the crossbow, Connor’s bow and Edward’s blowpipe) and because they really liked them, so they never really thought about their removal. However armor is permanent as well (damned roman spaulders!) and it should be obvious to Ubisoft, that not everyone wants it or, at least, not permanently.

However, after 5 games repeating the same mistakes and after so many people complaining, it is clear what the reason for not addressing this issue is. It isn’t important. It’s not important to them. Why? Because they make these games for the people who don’t care about this, who play casually. People who only play AC for the cheap violence, for sailing and that don’t want challenge because all they want is mindless fun. I’m not saying what they do is wrong (I have done it myself sometimes) but what Ubisoft is doing to the franchise, because of them, is wrong. The people who want to be able to remove weapons or to have challenge are the ones that take their time with AC, who care for the actual franchise while, those who play it casually don’t care for such “details”.
And, since Ubisoft’s goal is the big market, the casual market, we and our “details” aren’t important. Just like stealth, navigation and combat aren’t important (so they don’t need to be developed). Just like Assassin’s Creed isn’t important (so it can be replaced with anything that will attract casual gamers and, as long as the words “AC” are in the title then money is sure to flow).

Damned, I wish I was a casual gamer!

AssassinHMS
11-16-2013, 10:41 PM
I agree. But don’t you think that AC, the actual idea and not what Ubisoft made it out to be, is about the tension you feel while hiding in the shadows stalking your prey, about eavesdropping and spying on people and about taking your time to think and plan your move?
I think this is what Ubisoft should’ve accomplished with AC by now instead of destroying and adulterating what it stands for.

I know what your saying and i understand where your coming from. thats exactly what the first game was and why none of the new games including black flag can ever even compare to the stealth element Assassins creed had. nothing was more stealthy than hiding amongst a group of monks and waiting for them to tread into your prey's path and then the sweet embrace of your enemy against your hidden blade. boy i miss it. no game did it better.

Sadly, I agree. You know what? I like how cunning you are, too many people here don’t even understand or acknowledge what you’re saying.

that is because most of the people defend the game for what it stands for now other than what it once was. a edge of your seat stealth/action game for mature players. that's why people don't like the original so much, its because of how you actually had to do work to get your target. now all you do is tail your target for 10 min then you either assassinate him or you get caught by your target and have to restart it all. ill be honest there were more tailing missions in assassins creed IV than all of the games combined. now i wouldn't mind these missions if they actually meant for something but they don't you just follow these people and hope to god you don't lose them. (sigh) i miss sitting on benches and eavesdropping

I don’t do it now since, now, I don’t buy their games until they prove they can handle this franchise properly.
But I have to ask, don’t you think that a “real” AC would be much better than these adulterated games? An Assassin’s Creed where you can’t fight more than 3 or 4 enemies at once, where stealth is filled with tension and escaping is breathtaking? A real stealth focused AC game that invites the player to push his skills and think before making a move. Notice that I’m not saying it is necessarily hard. Sure you can’t fight like Batman but, if you find yourself in a tight spot, you can always escape (dodge enemies attacks or bump civilians who are carrying objects to knock over nearby pursuers) and resume stealth. If you ask me, there is nothing better than being a blade in the crowd, counting only on the hidden blade and on your skill.

i can see why you have given up on the series and lots of times i ask myself why i still play these games and my answer is i like playing as a new assassin and being enveloped in their history. and nobody does it better than ubisoft. sadly ubisoft is becoming like call of duty and madden and all of those other games that get yearly releases and as much as i love playing assassins creed they really need to go back to their roots or make something completely different that follows the old assassins creed play style. we can only hope

Exactly! You might be a junior member but you are more of an expert than most (so called) "experts" or seniors here.

If you ask me, the problem with this franchise is money like I explained in this thread, in the post where I quoted Landruner. But now, looking at most threads out there, the problems always have the same answer: The series is nothing but a faceless, casual mess.
Why is it that controls are worse than before, that everything is so automatic (navigation resumes to holding down a trigger) and so poorly developed? Why is it that the assassin essence (the spark) isn't here? Why is it that, instead of AC's logo or some discreet AC4 BF reference, Edward's face is slapped in this forum's corner like in some Hollywood movie billboard?

As for a series reboot or a return to the roots, I think it may happen sooner than most think, either that or it won’t happen at all…it depends. When something (a person, an industry, a company…) sells itself to the market and focuses on sales to the point of completely changing itself, there is no hope for a long life. If it doesn’t fail miserably, then it may have its minute of fame but it will die forgotten in the next. Bottom-line, either Ubisoft regains some of its dignity and stays true to AC or it will quickly run out of ideas on how to make the series “better” and, before they realize it, AC’s gone. They already used the pirate trump card and naval is quickly losing its novelty and place. How much more can they change and add to AC before they’re forced to give up or to acknowledge its true potential?

Either way this franchise is already wasted.

Landruner
11-16-2013, 11:51 PM
Iíve always wondered why Ubisoft never took the time to address such simple and ďimportantĒ issues. Initially, I thought it was because they wanted to show off their additions (the crossbow, Connorís bow and Edwardís blowpipe) and because they really liked them, so they never really thought about their removal. However armor is permanent as well (damned roman spaulders!) and it should be obvious to Ubisoft, that not everyone wants it or, at least, not permanently.

However, after 5 games repeating the same mistakes and after so many people complaining, it is clear what the reason for not addressing this issue is. It isnít important. Itís not important to them. Why? Because they make these games for the people who donít care about this, who play casually. People who only play AC for the cheap violence, for sailing and that donít want challenge because all they want is mindless fun. Iím not saying what they do is wrong (I have done it myself sometimes) but what Ubisoft is doing to the franchise, because of them, is wrong. The people who want to be able to remove weapons or to have challenge are the ones that take their time with AC, who care for the actual franchise while, those who play it casually donít care for such ďdetailsĒ.
And, since Ubisoftís goal is the big market, the casual market, we and our ďdetailsĒ arenít important. Just like stealth, navigation and combat arenít important (so they donít need to be developed). Just like Assassinís Creed isnít important (so it can be replaced with anything that will attract casual gamers and, as long as the words ďACĒ are in the title then money is sure to flow).

Damned, I wish I was a casual gamer!

Friend don't even get me started on this because I don't not want to be flamed one more time by those "stinky baboons" that spread that forum like the ones I had to deal with for the past days - certainly the same ones you call casuals and that do not like changes because they are afraid of losing their 100% synchronization in one gameplay?
All I can't tell you is that the developers not only they don't listen to their deep hard core fans (the one that care), but they don't even listen to the professional neither. They had gold in their hands and they are turning it into dirt for their own burial.

PM me if you want to talk about it because I do not want to any longer talk about that on that forum, I tried and it is pointless.

pacmanate
11-17-2013, 12:01 AM
I had 2 in 10 minutes, must be a record. That gives me a total of 3.

Hofner Chris
11-17-2013, 12:48 AM
I agree. Patch this for more frequency.

Zellzin
11-17-2013, 12:50 AM
91% complete and yet to encounter one

MnemonicSyntax
11-17-2013, 12:57 AM
You have the hidden blade. That is more than enough for an assassin. However I agree with you on "the combat feels empty". Indeed, there is no challenge. It isn't even combat, it's a slaughter. However I don't play AC for combat, I play it, among other things, to avoid it altogether, to be a blade in the crowd.
As for the flashy combos and flawless executions you can have that in every other game out there, AC isn't about that.
I also want to add that being a badass is in a person's personality. The act of killing dozens or even hundreds of other human beings, just for the sake or “fun” of it, is pathetic and unrealistic but definitely not "badass”.

I wish you'd stop saying what AC is about, because the idea is people take away different things from the series.

Seriously, all you ever do is whine about the "spark" and how AC should be, but it's been said many times over and over again that you take away from the series as to what you put into it. You want to be a blade in the crowd, doting only stealth assassinations, so be it. You want to start some crap with the guards and be that "badass?" then go for it.

I think it's pathetic you judge other people on their play style, to be honest. I've told you before to get off your high horse and come down off your pedestal and have a conversation with us, but each post you make you sound like a pretentious git. Who are you to say someone who kills a bunch of people who aren't real in a video game for fun are pathetic?

Some days, I come home from a long day at work and school, and you know what I do? Kill guards. No missions. No objectives, just kill guards. Wave after wave of them, it relaxes me and I enjoy feeling like a badass.

Stop trying to force feed the way you want to series to go when Ubisoft is clearly trying their hardest to make the game style open to as many people as possible. That's how you sell games. That's what they do. It's not about you, or what you want.

And this is from a "hardcore, old fan" of the franchise. Not every aspect of AC is perfect, but I'll give props to Ubisoft for trying and listening to their fans over the years. But what you want is unreasonable and it's why we haven't have that play style since AC 2. They've moved on and adapted. So should you.

And on topic with the conversation, 4's combat is VERY hard. It's not predictable. It changes up, and requires far more patience than 3. I too wouldn't mind a patch that gave more QTEs, but then again that might be too "easy and badass." Who cares.

Sushiglutton
11-17-2013, 01:04 AM
Haven't played AC4 yet but I think the way double counters were implemented in AC3 was very problematic. They were way overpowered since they allowed you to instantantly kill two guards, even the most powerful ones and not as a reward for good play, but randomly. I was also not a fan of the animation being so long and the cinematic camera pulled me out of the experience. It basically felt like every now and then you could tap a button to watch a cool mini-cutscene of Connor killing two bad guys. It just didn't fit well into the overall system imo.

That Ubi have made them rarer is a good thing imo as it likely means combat will flow somewhat better. The camera also seems to have been fixed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xGr6mxZIPU (@0:52). To me these changes are sound and I hope they keep them.

Wolfmeister1010
11-17-2013, 01:07 AM
I have found that they only throw in double counters after you've been fighting fora little while, to make combat less easy. In AC3 they were cool but happened too often. Just keep countering for a little bit and eventually it WILL happen.

Sushiglutton
11-17-2013, 01:12 AM
I have found that they only throw in double counters after you've been fighting fora little while, to make combat less easy. In AC3 they were cool but happened too often. Just keep countering for a little bit and eventually it WILL happen.

Could it be that they happen only after you have made a certain amount of correct moves in a row, or do you think they are random?

MnemonicSyntax
11-17-2013, 01:15 AM
Could it be that they happen only after you have made a certain amount of correct moves in a row, or do you think they are random?

No, you can get a group of guards, and just keep blocking them but not pressing anything after that, and then after doing that for a bit it's like they get angry and two attack at once. It's based on how many guards there are and time, but I don't know the parameters for either.

Sushiglutton
11-17-2013, 01:18 AM
No, you can get a group of guards, and just keep blocking them but not pressing anything after that, and then after doing that for a bit it's like they get angry and two attack at once. It's based on how many guards there are and time, but I don't know the parameters for either.

Ah ok, thanks for clarifying! I guess this is something that they technically could patch if they have like a frequency parameter or something they can tune up. Like I said before, not convinced it would be the right move though. Gonna have to play it to be sure.

AssassinHMS
11-17-2013, 01:53 AM
I wish you'd stop saying what AC is about, because the idea is people take away different things from the series.

Seriously, all you ever do is whine about the "spark" and how AC should be, but it's been said many times over and over again that you take away from the series as to what you put into it. You want to be a blade in the crowd, doting only stealth assassinations, so be it. You want to start some crap with the guards and be that "badass?" then go for it.

I think it's pathetic you judge other people on their play style, to be honest. I've told you before to get off your high horse and come down off your pedestal and have a conversation with us, but each post you make you sound like a pretentious git. Who are you to say someone who kills a bunch of people who aren't real in a video game for fun are pathetic?

Some days, I come home from a long day at work and school, and you know what I do? Kill guards. No missions. No objectives, just kill guards. Wave after wave of them, it relaxes me and I enjoy feeling like a badass.

Stop trying to force feed the way you want to series to go when Ubisoft is clearly trying their hardest to make the game style open to as many people as possible. That's how you sell games. That's what they do. It's not about you, or what you want.

And this is from a "hardcore, old fan" of the franchise. Not every aspect of AC is perfect, but I'll give props to Ubisoft for trying and listening to their fans over the years. But what you want is unreasonable and it's why we haven't have that play style since AC 2. They've moved on and adapted. So should you.

And on topic with the conversation, 4's combat is VERY hard. It's not predictable. It changes up, and requires far more patience than 3. I too wouldn't mind a patch that gave more QTEs, but then again that might be too "easy and badass." Who cares.

AhahÖyour post would be almost hilarious if it wasnít so sad.

Iím not on a high horse, it may seem that way since you keep playing in that puddle of mud of yours. Apparently youíve even covered both your ears and your eyes with that same mud, as you donít listen to what I say or read my posts properly. Iíve tried to help you get out of that mud many times but you just refuse to be helped and so, you keep rambling like a child or a priest who preaches that which he doesnít understand and answers that which he didnít listen. Either you need glasses or a brain.
Iím more than happy to answer and justify myself to those who ask but, in your case, I know it is useless and hopeless since you donít listen and you donít understand.
However, and because I still think there is some point in explaining the obvious to you, Iíll explain my previous post with small sentences and easy words that are close to ACís difficulty level.

First, I didnít judge any play style as I explicitly said I had that same play style sometimes (whenever Iím tired or just want to have some mindless fun). I even went as far as to say that play style isnít wrong but the way Ubisoft surrenders the franchise because of that play style is.
If you donít understand the clear difference here then you should probably go (back?) to fourth grade.
I didnít say that a person who ďkillsĒ a bunch of pixels is pathetic. I was referring to the assassin. I was saying that, as an assassin, within that world, it would be pathetic to kill people for pleasure or for the sake of it.
Again these are different things.


I am aware you said other nuisances but, if had to explain to you these obvious points that you clearly didnít understand (and Iím not sure that you do now even after all this), then there is no hope that you will understand any of the rest.
So, since it is pointless to talk to you as I have found out throughout our other unproductive discussions where you constantly miss my reasoning, I ask you to stop talking to me. Ignore me. Ignore my high horse. By all means, close your eyes and fill them with your mud but donít talk to me. Iíve had enough trying to explain that which can only be understood through experience or self-resolution.
Have a nice day.

Landruner
11-17-2013, 02:24 AM
@AssassinHMS

Friend, do not argue and waste your time with this "tardos" that took his brain for a sofa and sat on it the day he started playing that franchise, don't do it because it is hopeless.(He came after me also for the past days and he always want to have the last word)
You are wrong and he is always right, he knows nothing, but you are the ignorant, and you have no point or make with that person who farts higher than his own butt - He just tries to play the moderator as soon as someone writes something about the franchise or Ubisoft, he takes any critic a way too personal and considers them as an extreme insult to the company, he does not read between the lines, and he tells people how to behave of that forum and I honestly wish that the moderators tell him to slow down because whomever that clown is it starts getting on the nerves of a lot of people there.
-------------------------------------------------------
More seriously for what you were saying
My view of the weapons would be that they bring some old weapons that can be improved OR the players can improve - (I am not sure it could be possible for AC4 and a DLC) but perhaps for a next one?
For instance and just an example: The crossbow, it can turn into a hand-Crossbow and using darts instead bolt - Then for the players that want to switch it with the blowpipe well they may The ones that want the blowpipe they can don't have to use the crossbow, Then we can upgrade the hand-crossbow with a pistol and we get a pistol-crossbow (more lethal but less discreet). So same story, the ones that prefer the blowpipe use the blowpipe, the ones that wand the hand-crossbow the can us it too and the ones that prefer that pistol crossbow the can use that new weapon too - Players have the choice and everybody is happy!

Let me know if you see something like that or if you have other ideas, and friends that have ideas are welcome to joint too

AssassinHMS
11-17-2013, 03:24 AM
@AssassinHMS

Friend, do not argue and waste your time with this "tardos" that took his brain for a sofa and sat on it the day he started playing that franchise, don't do it because it is hopeless.(He came after me also for the past days and he always want to have the last word)
You are wrong and he is always right, he knows nothing, but you are the ignorant, and you have no point or make with that person who farts higher than his own butt - He just tries to play the moderator as soon as someone writes something about the franchise or Ubisoft, he takes any critic a way too personal and considers them as an extreme insult to the company, he does not read between the lines, and he tells people how to behave of that forum and I honestly wish that the moderators tell him to slow down because whomever that clown is it starts getting on the nerves of a lot of people there. Ahah…you’re absolutely right!



More seriously for what you were saying
My view of the weapons would be that they bring some old weapons that can be improved OR the players can improve - (I am not sure it could be possible for AC4 and a DLC) but perhaps for a next one? Yes. I would love myself a crossbow again. Not necessarily the same as Ezio’s but maybe different crossbows with certain looks and stats. I don’t know what I like the most, if a well-placed bolt shot silently from a dark corner or a silent hidden blade kill in the middle of a crowd.


For instance and just an example: The crossbow, it can turn into a hand-Crossbow and using darts instead bolt - Then for the players that want to switch it with the blowpipe well they may The ones that want the blowpipe they can don't have to use the crossbow, Then we can upgrade the hand-crossbow with a pistol and we get a pistol-crossbow (more lethal but less discreet). So same story, the ones that prefer the blowpipe use the blowpipe, the ones that wand the hand-crossbow the can us it too and the ones that prefer that pistol crossbow the can use that new weapon too - Players have the choice and everybody is happy! That would be perfect. That is exactly the kind of freedom I want from AC plus those weapon additions would be very welcome.


Let me know if you see something like that or if you have other ideas, and friends that have ideas are welcome to joint tooI don’t know. I usually think that there is a lot of potential in Multiplayer that could make SP a lot more interesting. The weapons for a start: Prowler’s hidden blade. It’s so awesome and I think it would be nice if the player could customize both the blade’s mechanism and shape as well as the bracer material (leather or metal), shape and pattern.

Anyway, all this weapon variety is good if each one is unique, not just in shape, but in gameplay purposes. In most AC games there are a ton of weapons but they don’t really make a difference. However if some weapons are more silent than others (like you said) or lighter (which would matter if there was a weight limit plus an improved sound detection system), then they could add a lot to the experience and make the player feel that his choices matter while encouraging to think like an assassin.

MnemonicSyntax
11-17-2013, 03:28 AM
@AssassinHMS

Friend, do not argue and waste your time with this "tardos" that took his brain for a sofa and sat on it the day he started playing that franchise, don't do it because it is hopeless.(He came after me also for the past days and he always want to have the last word)
You are wrong and he is always right, he knows nothing, but you are the ignorant, and you have no point or make with that person who farts higher than his own butt - He just tries to play the moderator as soon as someone writes something about the franchise or Ubisoft, he takes any critic a way too personal and considers them as an extreme insult to the company, he does not read between the lines, and he tells people how to behave of that forum and I honestly wish that the moderators tell him to slow down because whomever that clown is it starts getting on the nerves of a lot of people there.




I never came after you, nor am I a Ubisoft loyalist. I think maybe you should read between the lines. What I said was that your posts bring nothing to the table and are usually not on topic with the matter at hand. That's not an insult, but of course, it's fine for you to stoop to such a low level and insult and instigate like this.

Also, learn to speak for yourself. If you have a problem with my posts, report them. Otherwise, you're just baselessly instigating BS here and it's not necessary.

Go back and reread my posts regarding Ubisoft and how I say they keep trying and changing. I never said they were perfect in the least, so stop putting words in my mouth too.

The difference between you two and myself is, I'm open-minded. You guys will just continue to hate and blame Ubisoft if you don't get the perfect game you want. It's not happening.

Thanks.

EDIT: I've come to the conclusion that both of you are like minded and bring nothing to the table except whining, complaining and insulting other people. Welcome to the Blacklist.

Landruner
11-17-2013, 03:43 AM
@AssassinHMS I agree with what you wrote about the MP weapons and customization, and it chagrins me that those features are not there for the SP. Absolutely agree with the player choice over a large arsenal of weapons variety. Like I wrote somewhere a few days ago, player can find those weapons over additional side quests, unlock them or buy them. Anyway, adding such weapons are not redundant for the players or even ruin the franchise, since I kniw a lot of fans that replay the game(s) using different weapons and even organize challenges among them. Funny 2 years ago, I even saw during a party where I was, the teens around were replaying some mission of ACR only using the bombs in just doing combos. They had a blast lol!
So, I do not think it could hurt anyone that they add optional weapons for the player to choose from.

AssassinHMS
11-17-2013, 04:01 AM
@AssassinHMS I agree with what you wrote about the MP weapons and customization, and it chagrins me that those features are not there for the SP. Absolutely agree with the player choice over a large arsenal of weapons variety. Like I wrote somewhere a few days ago, player can find those weapons over additional side quests, unlock them or buy them. Anyway, adding such weapons are not redundant for the players or even ruin the franchise, since I kniw a lot of fans that replay the game(s) using different weapons and even organize challenges among them. Funny 2 years ago, I even saw during a party where I was, the teens around were replaying some mission of ACR only using the bombs in just doing combos. They had a blast lol!
So, I do not think it could hurt anyone that they add optional weapons for the player to choose from.

Agreed! As long as it is justified, choice is always good plus, like you said, they add replay value, especially, if you can't carry them all at once, which means you could replay missions using different weapon sets that would allow for different approaches. Besides, to me, there is something appealing, to the act of going to the hideout and carefully choose and equip the weapons and gear before an assassination mission.

EchoFiveKilo
11-17-2013, 04:29 AM
I bought AC3 for the combat (since I love martial arts and saw obvious martial arts style/inspiration from gameplay videos and trailers) and got absolutely hooked into the series, the story, and buying AC1 and 2. But seeing AC4's vids, and peoples review of the combat, I decided to skip since its the only largely replayable thing in the game for me. I replay AC3, freeroaming purely to fight the guards, since the animation and double counters are superb, but AC4's looks very bland, poorly animated (I dont think they mocapped the new moves) and a lot of the moves are carried over from AC3. I guess I'll have to skip AC4.

Landruner
11-17-2013, 04:33 AM
I never came after you, nor am I a Ubisoft loyalist. I think maybe you should read between the lines. What I said was that your posts bring nothing to the table and are usually not on topic with the matter at hand. That's not an insult, but of course, it's fine for you to stoop to such a low level and insult and instigate like this.

Also, learn to speak for yourself. If you have a problem with my posts, report them. Otherwise, you're just baselessly instigating BS here and it's not necessary.

Go back and reread my posts regarding Ubisoft and how I say they keep trying and changing. I never said they were perfect in the least, so stop putting words in my mouth too.

The difference between you two and myself is, I'm open-minded. You guys will just continue to hate and blame Ubisoft if you don't get the perfect game you want. It's not happening.

Thanks.

EDIT: I've come to the conclusion that both of you are like minded and bring nothing to the table except whining, complaining and insulting other people. Welcome to the Blacklist.

But, I was not talking to you? I was giving a piece of advice to another user, but obviously you recognized yourself in my piece of advice...! And what about the topic of this thread?

Look I am not going to play biased game with you and to go directly to the point.

First of I told you yesterday; if I hated Ubisoft that much like you think I do, I will be not there on that forum exchanging opinions, ideas and critics, okay?
And it goes for the friends that you are after for the same reasons - No one is a hater there, capiche?!.

Second, you write you never came after me? Check your posts, and see how many times you gave me you high lessons of morality about how I should behave there each time I wrote something on that forum (funny or not) - Check from day one you did that one of your first post you wrote was for me - Like I am supposed to check my English, my syntax, my behavior or I never bring anything good to the table. And apparently according to the feedback I got so far, I am not the only one whom you do that to.

In short; when someone posts something and you disagree with, we are supposed to be smarter that you are, any idea that anyone can bring to the table (like you write so many times) is obsolete or inept and we have to shut-up because you are smarter and we are poor ignorant or haters. We can be reviewers, artists, programmers, game designers or just players, nope, we are just a brunch of stupid selfish ignorant - That is boring; annoying, insulting and it does not really give the desire for people (whomever they are or could be) to come with some ideas or propositions there. It is demotivating really and honestly if someone writes something they want to be changed in the game - that is their rights to at least ask or write it, even if you don't like it. The franchise does not belong to you only, but at its fans whomever they are and whatever they do.

So please either you take the way " Mon cher Monsieur! passez donc votre chemin, et bien le bonjour chez vous"! or we keep it civilized among us, and you are welcome to come to give your opinion, but please stop trying to teach us something or calling us by names when you don't agree with something that someone writes - I hope I was clear enough? - Thank you

Ps: And do not come about my English because you may have a problem there!

EchoFiveKilo
11-17-2013, 04:34 AM
Haven't played AC4 yet but I think the way double counters were implemented in AC3 was very problematic. They were way overpowered since they allowed you to instantantly kill two guards, even the most powerful ones and not as a reward for good play, but randomly. I was also not a fan of the animation being so long and the cinematic camera pulled me out of the experience. It basically felt like every now and then you could tap a button to watch a cool mini-cutscene of Connor killing two bad guys. It just didn't fit well into the overall system imo.

That Ubi have made them rarer is a good thing imo as it likely means combat will flow somewhat better. The camera also seems to have been fixed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xGr6mxZIPU (@0:52). To me these changes are sound and I hope they keep them.

How has the camera 'fixed'? If anything, AC3 did it better because the camera moved fluidly, and aided how we viewed the action. Now, as you see in the video, the camera bobs up and down, looking left to right and shaking all over the place like a handheld cam, I dont see how the 'pull out of experience' argument that a few people have against AC3 on here, is valid.

NOT ONLY is that double counter blatantly copy and pasted from AC3, with some minor adjustments to accomodate the dual swords instead of the tomahawk, they somehow made it look WORSE than AC3 - I was looking forward to the combat in AC4 but I'm really disappointed.

Look at the first kill in this video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Y6SsGODcGw

Now compare it to the ACIV video at 0:52. Look familiar? Which one looks more coherent, fluid and nicely edited? CLEARLY AC3, by a long shot. I love how people just cant put aside their hate for AC3, that they'll kiss ACIV's arse every chance they get, even if AC3 did do some things better.

Landruner
11-17-2013, 04:39 AM
I bought AC3 for the combat (since I love martial arts and saw obvious martial arts style/inspiration from gameplay videos and trailers) and got absolutely hooked into the series, the story, and buying AC1 and 2. But seeing AC4's vids, and peoples review of the combat, I decided to skip since its the only largely replayable thing in the game for me. I replay AC3, freeroaming purely to fight the guards, since the animation and double counters are superb, but AC4's looks very bland, poorly animated (I dont think they mocapped the new moves) and a lot of the moves are carried over from AC3. I guess I'll have to skip AC4.

I would not go to that point...AC4 was a lot of fun stuff to do besides the fighting, but if fighting is your only goal? Perhaps, you could see a "tiny" deference between AC3 & 4,however; that difference I felt is personal, and I am pretty sure that a patch can fix that. Personally you should give a try to AC4 sometimes because it is still a good game.

Landruner
11-17-2013, 04:53 AM
Agreed! As long as it is justified, choice is always good plus, like you said, they add replay value, especially, if you can't carry them all at once, which means you could replay missions using different weapon sets that would allow for different approaches. Besides, to me, there is something appealing, to the act of going to the hideout and carefully choose and equip the weapons and gear before an assassination mission.

Here you go, this exactly what I am talking about - The all preparation, the tension of thinking should have pick this or that, thinking, making plans and then experimenting the choice. That the way player feesl being in control of the situation.

Imagine a scenario for a side mission (assassination) Note: They actually change the configuration of the game like it is.
You get a target to kill
You investigate to learn about your target, who is the target, what the target does, who are his friends, how to can get close to that target
Then the investigate where the target lives and where id the best place for striking.
You analyze the situation, take in consideration the pros and the cons of the location, and then...
You choice meticulously your weapons.

Players that want to do that they can, the ones that prefer just going they go - The choice is yours, but I least the ones that want to feel like an Assassin get that satisfaction

EchoFiveKilo
11-17-2013, 05:26 AM
I would not go to that point...AC4 was a lot of fun stuff to do besides the fighting, but if fighting is your only goal? Perhaps, you could see a "tiny" deference between AC3 & 4,however; that difference I felt is personal, and I am pretty sure that a patch can fix that. Personally you should give a try to AC4 sometimes because it is still a good game.

I agree, but I really enjoyed AC3's combat since it makes you feel like a pure badass. I will eventually get AC4 for the storyline, but right now I dont think I can fork out the 68 bucks for it.

Rugterwyper32
11-17-2013, 05:32 AM
@AssassinHMS I agree with what you wrote about the MP weapons and customization, and it chagrins me that those features are not there for the SP. Absolutely agree with the player choice over a large arsenal of weapons variety. Like I wrote somewhere a few days ago, player can find those weapons over additional side quests, unlock them or buy them. Anyway, adding such weapons are not redundant for the players or even ruin the franchise, since I kniw a lot of fans that replay the game(s) using different weapons and even organize challenges among them. Funny 2 years ago, I even saw during a party where I was, the teens around were replaying some mission of ACR only using the bombs in just doing combos. They had a blast lol!
So, I do not think it could hurt anyone that they add optional weapons for the player to choose from.

This actually fits in with an idea I've been building up in my head for the past few days, which I'll probably be posting in the Future AC Titles probably tomorrow afternoon or something. Not right now, definitely, I'm pretty tired, but yes, it'll be there. For some reason this post got the gears going and it made me read up on the multiplayer that I haven't pretty much touched at all, so I have some extra knowledge to work with. My thinking is that it could...

a) Make hunting fit into the assassination gameplay loop in some ways
b) Eliminate the inherent problems that come to any game with a money system by replacing it with something different
c) Leave combat as a viable option as it is, yet highly encouraging stealth and adding different risks to open combat rather than the usual "you died go back to the checkpoint"
d) Adjust the events around you depending on your gameplay style and making your choice between them significant

All in one fell swoop. At least, that's what this idea I've been building up in my head has been aiming for. So expect a long post on that tomorrow. But for now I'll go get some sleep, I need that.

Landruner
11-17-2013, 05:57 AM
This actually fits in with an idea I've been building up in my head for the past few days, which I'll probably be posting in the Future AC Titles probably tomorrow afternoon or something. Not right now, definitely, I'm pretty tired, but yes, it'll be there. For some reason this post got the gears going and it made me read up on the multiplayer that I haven't pretty much touched at all, so I have some extra knowledge to work with. My thinking is that it could...

a) Make hunting fit into the assassination gameplay loop in some ways
b) Eliminate the inherent problems that come to any game with a money system by replacing it with something different
c) Leave combat as a viable option as it is, yet highly encouraging stealth and adding different risks to open combat rather than the usual "you died go back to the checkpoint"
d) Adjust the events around you depending on your gameplay style and making your choice between them significant

All in one fell swoop. At least, that's what this idea I've been building up in my head has been aiming for. So expect a long post on that tomorrow. But for now I'll go get some sleep, I need that.

Well I am looking forward to see your post tomorrow - I just quickly respond to that one - Yes, the point I was trying to do (among some others) and I believe it is the way they should go, is totally make a game that allows both type of gameplay(s) to be efficient at the same time - Deeper Stealth missions and better fight system combats. That a least the two types of players that like that franchise that enjoy the same game with different type of gameplay and options they like and decisions they want to make.

pirate1802
11-17-2013, 07:00 AM
Damned, I wish I was a casual gamer!

You could never be as awesome as us.

JnrfL
11-17-2013, 09:30 AM
I like the idea of being able to change the blowpipe with another weapon with the same effect. Still it really is absurd to make Edward carry a blowpipe at his back. He doesn't even have it in the wallpaper here! That in itself shows how stupid it looks to the eyes of the general public. All was fine and dandy till I received that damn blowpipe. -_-" I had even already created another playthrough just to avoided the blowpipe and even resulted in ignoring progressing the story missions. It just doesn't sit right for me. The mentality of "I have a gun and a fricking pirate, why the hell will I even use a blowpipe to prolong my enemies misery?" I mean the game allows removing it when selecting a previous story mission. Why can't they make that permanent for the entire playthrough? I really just wish they would remove/hide it so that I can continue the story missions... It is just aesthetically ugly playing the game with it being in plain sight. -_-"

Landruner
11-17-2013, 10:49 AM
I like the idea of being able to change the blowpipe with another weapon with the same effect. Still it really is absurd to make Edward carry a blowpipe at his back. He doesn't even have it in the wallpaper here! That in itself shows how stupid it looks to the eyes of the general public. All was fine and dandy till I received that damn blowpipe. -_-" I had even already created another playthrough just to avoided the blowpipe and even resulted in ignoring progressing the story missions. It just doesn't sit right for me. The mentality of "I have a gun and a fricking pirate, why the hell will I even use a blowpipe to prolong my enemies misery?" I mean the game allows removing it when selecting a previous story mission. Why can't they make that permanent for the entire playthrough? I really just wish they would remove/hide it so that I can continue the story missions... It is just aesthetically ugly playing the game with it being in plain sight. -_-"

You know like I said on that thread - They bring a Crossbow design turn it into a hand - crossbow (That can fit with the pistol animation) - instead the bolt for the crossbow you can use the darts, and you have another weapon with the same effect and character can carry the hand- crossbow instead that the blow-pipe, here we go and everybody is happy people that don't want the pipe use the crossbow and still be able to use the darts

AssassinHMS
11-17-2013, 01:23 PM
You could never be as awesome as us.

"Damn you're awesome!!"
http://i.imgur.com/RejoA.gif

I can never be like you guys...:(

Sushiglutton
11-17-2013, 01:58 PM
How has the camera 'fixed'? If anything, AC3 did it better because the camera moved fluidly, and aided how we viewed the action. Now, as you see in the video, the camera bobs up and down, looking left to right and shaking all over the place like a handheld cam, I dont see how the 'pull out of experience' argument that a few people have against AC3 on here, is valid.

NOT ONLY is that double counter blatantly copy and pasted from AC3, with some minor adjustments to accomodate the dual swords instead of the tomahawk, they somehow made it look WORSE than AC3 - I was looking forward to the combat in AC4 but I'm really disappointed.

Look at the first kill in this video

Now compare it to the ACIV video at 0:52. Look familiar? Which one looks more coherent, fluid and nicely edited? CLEARLY AC3, by a long shot. I love how people just cant put aside their hate for AC3, that they'll kiss ACIV's arse every chance they get, even if AC3 did do some things better.


The main issue with the camera in AC3 is that it drastically changes angle and level of zoom at the start of the combo. This is not visible in your vid as you never get to see how the combos started. Check this out at 9:40 (also at 9:53):


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ia_lEZqA-kU


Notice how the camera spins 180 degrees and zooms in very close on Connor. To me this was very disorienting. Now if you check the clip from AC4 I posted notice how the camera zooms in just a little bit and doesn't rotate at all. It makes the move fit more seamlessly into the overall combat system. If this is an actual new feature, or if it's just luck (aka the starting position is favorable) I will have to play the game to find out. There is still a very noticeable cut at the start of the combo, but the more consistent angle/level of zoom makes it a bit less jarring.

Landruner
11-18-2013, 12:27 AM
Biggest camera problem with AC3 is that the traveling camera was a bit too close from Connor - Compare with other ACs the camera was always a way more distance behind the character - In AC3 it was too close

Landruner
11-18-2013, 04:30 AM
Hand Crossbow that player can switch with Blowpipe:
CrossBow uses the same darts

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRkI1sIL_6Js99UaCuPTc_iGLa8Be1H0 ePkO07axJ8H99ZXTJ_J (http://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&docid=Op9zaqlxgbtgPM&tbnid=6botocFBlVeRDM:&ved=0CAUQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Ffunsinside.blogspot.com%2F2011%2F 09%2Fancient-weapon-that-played-its-role-as.html&ei=z4SJUsLhG6e2sASj84HQBQ&bvm=bv.56643336,d.cWc&psig=AFQjCNHoaDHIQFLiVDmpiTyNfJtPvT4ojg&ust=1384830534216715)https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTY-zsTdBV8RAn-2p7mvdXnUv8jdot7LClUpHUXek6QnR49lo-g

Pistol Crossbow - (More lethal) - Player can upgrade that weapons and switch with either the blowpipe or the hand crossbow
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1c/Crossbow_pistol_IMG_3841.jpg/120px-Crossbow_pistol_IMG_3841.jpgGrenade and Caltrops (Both grenades and caltrops were used by Pirates)
https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTG5MhsreBbPROwRFKyxD5Yjf8eAe4bm zmLlpEaTeI5S6KqdlXTbA
Pirates Arsenal (Modder's resources / replicas / game designer's models)
http://mr-necturus.com/shop/image/cache/data/Products/Unity_Assets/Weapons_Collection_01-600x600.jpg (http://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&docid=2GkS8k_gA32HBM&tbnid=io6fPtwUCy_DiM:&ved=0CAUQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fmr-necturus.com%2Fshop%2Fpirate_weapons_unity_assets_ collection&ei=6YeJUuGiGcfNsQTzrYDYCA&bvm=bv.56643336,d.cWc&psig=AFQjCNFntQmtO2qHLpe_cex5QU3pT2nQwg&ust=1384831311472160)http://www.brianbero.com/Pyrate Weapons100md.jpg (http://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&docid=2GkS8k_gA32HBM&tbnid=io6fPtwUCy_DiM:&ved=0CAUQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.brianbero.com%2Fpirateweapons .html&ei=PYiJUun2NIfesAS2noKgAw&bvm=bv.56643336,d.cWc&psig=AFQjCNFntQmtO2qHLpe_cex5QU3pT2nQwg&ust=1384831311472160)http://www.ryanrouse.com/assets/ryan_rouse_pirate_weapons.jpg (http://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&docid=2GkS8k_gA32HBM&tbnid=io6fPtwUCy_DiM:&ved=0CAUQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ryanrouse.com%2F&ei=V4iJUvqSHPfesATN_IGgDg&bvm=bv.56643336,d.cWc&psig=AFQjCNFntQmtO2qHLpe_cex5QU3pT2nQwg&ust=1384831311472160)http://th01.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/f/2012/045/b/5/pirates_assault_melee_weapons_by_sash4all-d4pozoi.jpghttp://th00.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/f/2012/045/a/5/pirates_assualt_ranged_weapons_by_sash4all-d4pozsf.jpghttp://th08.deviantart.net/fs37/PRE/f/2008/282/e/0/piratesassault_weapons_by_sash4all.jpg

Kagurra
11-18-2013, 04:39 AM
Alright... that's a bit overkill Landruner, lol. Those crossbows look really dumb imo.

phoenix-force411
11-18-2013, 04:47 AM
Biggest camera problem with AC3 is that the traveling camera was a bit too close from Connor - Compare with other ACs the camera was always a way more distance behind the character - In AC3 it was too close

It's been close to the character since Assassin's Creed Brotherhood, in ACIII, it did get slightly closer, but it wasn't a problem to anyone who played it, and I prefer that it stays close since having it too far like in AC1 and ACII really detracts my attention.

Landruner
11-18-2013, 05:01 AM
Alright... that's a bit overkill Landruner, lol. Those crossbows look really dumb imo.

Yep, but imagine it with the hood on/ off it will be "badoss"

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQKHJnMCIJPJNEgb6XZ4XgXSrFjIHv5I fidZt709Czi45q1Fwbl

Landruner
11-18-2013, 05:07 AM
It's been close to the character since Assassin's Creed Brotherhood, in ACIII, it did get slightly closer, but it wasn't a problem to anyone who played it, and I prefer that it stays close since having it too far like in AC1 and ACII really detracts my attention.

I checked the difference of camera for all the games before posting, and it seems to me that the camera was closer (3rd person view) to the character comparing to the others. Anyway you are right for AC1 &2 effectively the cam was far behind Altair and Ezio, and it got closer for ACB but not that close as AC3 did

I found that on YT see the difference for the camera over the shoulder

ACB
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mspOR1U6Gg&feature=player_detailpage

AC3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_s9aVCfPdng&feature=player_detailpage

rengokum
11-18-2013, 06:27 PM
Landrunner. you truly are a assassins creed fan and i admire your time to be responding on this page on how ubisoft can make these games better in more ways than one. i was analyzing your pirate weapon loadout pictures and i noticed the hook and it striked me, why isnt that in the game? do they realize how many epic kills they could get with that thing? i mean its literally the hook blade from ACR but way cooler. the hook blade has been my favorite weapon in the series because of the gruesome kills it dishes out but after revelations ubisoft saw it fit to take that epic weapon away and give us the dual hidden blades again. im sooooo freakin tired of the dual hidden blades because they never do anything with them.

in truth and and dont yell at me for being honest. ubisoft is getting lazy. they see the money rolling and they figure there is no point in releasing new weaponry in there games. same old ****. hidden blades swords dual swords and um pistols. thats all i use in AC IV wit the occasional rope dart (which i hardly use because they gave us that weapon way too late in the game) but thats it. ii wanna run around with that chain sword or that ball and chain or even that whip. these weapons are so damn appealing and to be honest i wouldn't mind if they took out swords entirely. because there blade has become sooo dull i dont want to use edged weapons anymore. how sad is that.

Assassins creed is about exploring the history of the character you play as and being that we are in the early 1700's we should be allowed access to some of these weapons. god forbid them from giving us a blowpipe (which lets be honest, who really uses that?) but not give us hook? this is like one of the closest thing you can get to being a freaking pirate. wooo im cooked.

Landrunner you should personally email those pirate weapons to ubisoft and tell em thats what we want. not these tired *** blades we want a pirate hook. we want some damn innovation

Landruner
11-18-2013, 07:14 PM
Well, let say I am a bit in the show biz and involved in some other artistic industries..., and a lot of stuff like had already came to the devs a long time ago trust, and even by some people more competent and influential than I am. (I would say & notably that I have vivid memories of attempts for that bloody blowpipe's story during development....)

The examples above are not mine, it is just an "exaggerated" sample (modular resources) of what it could have been possible to do or to choose from, at least for having the player being able to replace his weapons. Some weapons there are really cool thought!

Kagurra
11-19-2013, 10:00 AM
Just thought I'd find this thread again and say that while looking for some next-gen city free roam gameplay so I could get my fix without any spoilers, in the first three or four minutes of the video, in the first fight the guy gets into, there's a double counter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWS2t5bGpCs

Maybe everything I said about more counters and other AI/combat features on next-gen wasn't all non-sense. Or maybe it still was and he got really lucky... take it as you will. :B Also, he does look spiffy without the blowpipe... but it never really bothered me like the crossbow in Ezio games did.

BoBwUzHeRe1138
11-19-2013, 10:54 AM
Iíve always wondered why Ubisoft never took the time to address such simple and ďimportantĒ issues. Initially, I thought it was because they wanted to show off their additions (the crossbow, Connorís bow and Edwardís blowpipe) and because they really liked them, so they never really thought about their removal. However armor is permanent as well (damned roman spaulders!) and it should be obvious to Ubisoft, that not everyone wants it or, at least, not permanently.

However, after 5 games repeating the same mistakes and after so many people complaining, it is clear what the reason for not addressing this issue is. It isnít important. Itís not important to them. Why? Because they make these games for the people who donít care about this, who play casually. People who only play AC for the cheap violence, for sailing and that donít want challenge because all they want is mindless fun. Iím not saying what they do is wrong (I have done it myself sometimes) but what Ubisoft is doing to the franchise, because of them, is wrong. The people who want to be able to remove weapons or to have challenge are the ones that take their time with AC, who care for the actual franchise while, those who play it casually donít care for such ďdetailsĒ.
And, since Ubisoftís goal is the big market, the casual market, we and our ďdetailsĒ arenít important. Just like stealth, navigation and combat arenít important (so they donít need to be developed). Just like Assassinís Creed isnít important (so it can be replaced with anything that will attract casual gamers and, as long as the words ďACĒ are in the title then money is sure to flow).

Damned, I wish I was a casual gamer!

This...I'm mystified as to why they've never allowed us to de-equip ourselves. We couldn't in AC1 but that makes sense considering we can't personalize ourselves in any way, anyway. It was a pretty big oversight in AC2 but forgivable since they corrected numerous issues with the first game and then opened up the game world with more to do. But then Brotherhood had the same issue and at that point...it was pretty absurd. There was at least a glitch to remove *most* of the armor whereas AC2 didn't have that but that's just it -- it wasn't intended! Then Revelations came out...and we STILL couldn't remove armor without the use of a glitch. It's utterly ridiculous that they never addressed issues like this and it's because of casual fans who won't be bothered by anything so long as they can kill. :/

pacmanate
11-19-2013, 11:56 AM
Rengo*** - Resogun

Coincidence? I think not.

BoBwUzHeRe1138
11-19-2013, 12:29 PM
Compare with other ACs the camera was always a way more distance behind the character - In AC3 it was too close

No. It was perfect in AC3. I hope AC4 kept the same distance.

Landruner
11-19-2013, 05:09 PM
No. It was perfect in AC3. I hope AC4 kept the same distance.

They corrected it for AC4, and it is better.

TheArcaneEagle
11-19-2013, 06:12 PM
They corrected it for AC4, and it is better.

Yeah this time you actually see the whole fight and not some extreme close up shots and questionable angles.

Landruner
11-19-2013, 06:26 PM
Yeah this time you actually see the whole fight and not some extreme close up shots and questionable angles.

Well that was my point I was trying to make with past users and BoBwUzHeRe1138...Also for AC3 when you are in Frontier, the camera gets time to time a way too close from Connor back and sometimes it does a traveling for 30 to 60 seconds on his feet as well.
But, they corrected the all stuff for AC4, and like you wrote you can see the all action a way better now (That's cool)

EchoFiveKilo
11-19-2013, 07:52 PM
They corrected it for AC4, and it is better.

Nope, now the camera bobs up and down and moves around at very fast speeds, like a Hollywood camera bobbing all over the place. Can't you see the difference it makes in the animation? Now the animation looks blocky and it isnt as fluid as AC3.

EchoFiveKilo
11-19-2013, 07:58 PM
The main issue with the camera in AC3 is that it drastically changes angle and level of zoom at the start of the combo. This is not visible in your vid as you never get to see how the combos started. Check this out at 9:40 (also at 9:53):


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ia_lEZqA-kU


Notice how the camera spins 180 degrees and zooms in very close on Connor. To me this was very disorienting. Now if you check the clip from AC4 I posted notice how the camera zooms in just a little bit and doesn't rotate at all. It makes the move fit more seamlessly into the overall combat system. If this is an actual new feature, or if it's just luck (aka the starting position is favorable) I will have to play the game to find out. There is still a very noticeable cut at the start of the combo, but the more consistent angle/level of zoom makes it a bit less jarring.

I dont see how it is disorienting. Would you not agree that dropkick kill at 9:50 was awesome? Its because of the way its filmed that also helps how cool it looks. It makes the action look alot better than it does in ACIV - Similar to how fighting/action movies can look better if there are different angles at times, instead of the camera sitting in one spot, and watching the fight from a static position. No offence to anyone on this site but I think this complaint is totally unnecessary. Maybe everyone seems to have epilepsy except me.

Landruner
11-19-2013, 09:11 PM
Nope, now the camera bobs up and down and moves around at very fast speeds, like a Hollywood camera bobbing all over the place. Can't you see the difference it makes in the animation? Now the animation looks blocky and it isnt as fluid as AC3.

I see what you mean, effectively the camera goes a bit faster around Edward, yep...and when you fight it looks odd, and sometimes the final moves are not always synchronized neither, but I was referring in my previous posts to the distance between the camera and Edward which is okay and better than AC3... they just need to fix that camera speed story in some next patch(es)

Kagurra
11-19-2013, 10:43 PM
No. It was perfect in AC3. I hope AC4 kept the same distance.

Speaking of distances, they really zoomed in on Edward during big leaps of faith and dives. I dislike it. They also removed the cool viewpoint sync animation from AC3.

simbaaa126
11-19-2013, 11:21 PM
I think they need to bring back the stealth type sytle that Ezio had going on. I haven't played AC4 yet, but in AC3 when using the hidden blade for a stealth kill, Connor kind of shanks the absolute crap out of the guard, which I always get caught doing. Ezio was very silent and discrete, you didn't get caught by the guards, plus you could take out two guards at once with the double hidden blade, which was very helpful. I think Ezio was a more all round assassin whereas Connor was more combat focused. That's just my opinion.

Kagurra
11-19-2013, 11:34 PM
I think they need to bring back the stealth type sytle that Ezio had going on. I haven't played AC4 yet, but in AC3 when using the hidden blade for a stealth kill, Connor kind of shanks the absolute crap out of the guard, which I always get caught doing. Ezio was very silent and discrete, you didn't get caught by the guards, plus you could take out two guards at once with the double hidden blade, which was very helpful. I think Ezio was a more all round assassin whereas Connor was more combat focused. That's just my opinion.

You talking about the hidden blade kill where he keeps walking forward? I hated that you still did that even when standing still behind somebody. But then again I didn't like Ezio's animations either. The low profile (this is all from behind, by the way) was silly because he leaned back a bunch of some reason, and the high profile was dumb because he put the guy to his knees and stabbed him all brutal like, and then he spent like 5 minutes laying the guy down.

Edward has some awesome assassination animations if you go into high profile at the last second, like one where he stabs the back of the guy's neck and lays/throws the body down backwards so it doesn't slide off of the roof. But it's not in a "I love you" kind of way like Ezio did it.

It was dumb you could only double assassinate guards in AC3 while in high profile unless it was from the air. I think that's fixed in AC4 though.

simbaaa126
11-20-2013, 12:59 AM
You talking about the hidden blade kill where he keeps walking forward? I hated that you still did that even when standing still behind somebody. But then again I didn't like Ezio's animations either. The low profile (this is all from behind, by the way) was silly because he leaned back a bunch of some reason, and the high profile was dumb because he put the guy to his knees and stabbed him all brutal like, and then he spent like 5 minutes laying the guy down.

Edward has some awesome assassination animations if you go into high profile at the last second, like one where he stabs the back of the guy's neck and lays/throws the body down backwards so it doesn't slide off of the roof. But it's not in a "I love you" kind of way like Ezio did it.

It was dumb you could only double assassinate guards in AC3 while in high profile unless it was from the air. I think that's fixed in AC4 though.

Yeah that's what I'm talking about. I liked how Ezio would go behind two and would take them both out in a low profile kill, something that AC3 didn't have. It makes low profile stealth a lot easier. Also low profile kills on one guard with Ezio was way better then what Connor does, even if the animations weren't as great. It helps you plan out an attack and be stealthy, rather than starting a massive battle which is what Connor does.

As I said, I haven't played AC4 yet so hopefully it's in there.

Kagurra
11-20-2013, 01:27 AM
Yeah that's what I'm talking about. I liked how Ezio would go behind two and would take them both out in a low profile kill, something that AC3 didn't have. It makes low profile stealth a lot easier. Also low profile kills on one guard with Ezio was way better then what Connor does, even if the animations weren't as great. It helps you plan out an attack and be stealthy, rather than starting a massive battle which is what Connor does.

As I said, I haven't played AC4 yet so hopefully it's in there.

Also in AC4 if you hidden blade a guard it doesn't alert all guards in the area that aren't even looking at the guy, which I think is what you mean by Connor starting a fight all the time. The detection radius so to say has been toned down, even on "high profile" animations like the one I said that Edward does, which honestly is kind of a stealthy animation for taking out single guards, they just had to put it on the high profile button set.

MuddledMuppet2
11-20-2013, 08:28 AM
I really like the dual counters, such a shame we don't see more of them.

Someone mentioned that you can get more of them if you hold off groups of attackers rather than killing them all straight away, which kinda seems a bit daft, but I thought I'd test it out, and yeah, it definitely works, it just seems silly to have to do them this way.

As does the fact that as all the hard work of animations etc was put in, to have them seen so rarely! Anyhoo, here's a vid showing how the 'don't kill 'em all too soon' approach does work...

EDIT: the 'someone' was MnomicSyntax, thanks for letting us know, and apologies for not posting credit originally! :D


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_6Oyx3Z1oc

deadlyh1tAC
11-20-2013, 08:51 AM
i need a patch for this RIGHT NOW need often DOUBLE COUNTER KILLS

Kagurra
11-20-2013, 08:54 AM
i need a patch for this RIGHT NOW need often DOUBLE COUNTER KILLS

Like I've posted above, it didn't seem that infrequent to me in the first PS4 gameplay video I looked up. It happened in the first fight.

MnemonicSyntax
11-20-2013, 09:13 AM
I really like the dual counters, such a shame we don't see more of them.

Someone mentioned that you can get more of them if you hold off groups of attackers rather than killing them all straight away, which kinda seems a bit daft, but I thought I'd test it out, and yeah, it definitely works, it just seems silly to have to do them this way.

As does the fact that as all the hard work of animations etc was put in, to have them seen so rarely! Anyhoo, here's a vid showing how the 'don't kill 'em all too soon' approach does work...


I was the one that mentioned this, and thanks for the video.

The way I see it is, Edward is just holding them off to piss them off, and that's when they double attack, after being fed up with it.

deadlyh1tAC
11-20-2013, 09:17 AM
Like I've posted above, it didn't seem that infrequent to me in the first PS4 gameplay video I looked up. It happened in the first fight.

so you mean that double counter attacks are more often on ps4?

Kagurra
11-20-2013, 09:24 AM
so you mean that double counter attacks are more often on ps4?

Iunno. A few days ago I had a theory that it happened more on next-gen for whatever limitations they had on current-gen, but who knows. I was just surprised it happened right away in that video when people have said they never see them. But I haven't seen it since in other gameplays I've watched.

deadlyh1tAC
11-20-2013, 09:40 AM
Iunno. A few days ago I had a theory that it happened more on next-gen for whatever limitations they had on current-gen, but who knows. I was just surprised it happened right away in that video when people have said they never see them. But I haven't seen it since in other gameplays I've watched.

i really need to have them back! and i believe is not that hard from ubisoft to give them back to us! a patch can fix it all!

Kagurra
11-20-2013, 09:47 AM
i really need to have them back! and i believe is not that hard from ubisoft to give them back to us! a patch can fix it all!

They've said patches are more for fixes and not adding things (like a hood toggle or the option to remove weapons...), but I guess you could consider this a bug, so maybe they'll fix it.

MuddledMuppet2
11-20-2013, 10:04 AM
I was the one that mentioned this, and thanks for the video.

.

Thanks for posting that, after I posted it it struck me that I should have searched thru to find out who it was and give credit, post now editted and thanks for watching :)

siberarmi
11-20-2013, 10:38 AM
Damned, I wish I was a casual gamer!


Well, I have got some bad news for you mate, AC series are casual games for casual gamers. Like most of the games in this generation. Welcome to next gen!


For the topic, here stated double counters are in but really rare, probably this is an effect of limited weapon arsenal in this game. They were fun to watch in 3rd game because there were many different weapons and animations. With limited arsenal we'd have the same cutscenes over and over which will become boring quickly.

I for one want more weapons in game and dual wield different weapons like sword+axe or sword dagger. Also I have a soft spot for heavy weapons.

deadlyh1tAC
11-20-2013, 11:25 AM
They've said patches are more for fixes and not adding things (like a hood toggle or the option to remove weapons...), but I guess you could consider this a bug, so maybe they'll fix it.

well hood on/off could be great! but i like it how it is when you enter the restricted areas! but again i really need the double kills back!

MnemonicSyntax
11-20-2013, 03:57 PM
well hood on/off could be great! but i like it how it is when you enter the restricted areas! but again i really need the double kills back!

You do? Because we couldn't tell by how many times you've said it how serious you are about wanting double counters back.

And, there's a difference between want and need.

EDIT: And the hood off/on thing isn't fixing a bug. That's what patches do. Fix bugs. It's just an added feature based on want. Much like how you want double counters back.

Landruner
11-20-2013, 04:47 PM
Well, I have got some bad news for you mate, AC series are casual games for casual gamers. Like most of the games in this generation. Welcome to next gen!

Are you implicated in the video game industry for giving that "bad news" for the next gen?

TheArcaneEagle
11-20-2013, 08:44 PM
Its a shame that these are so rare in this AC, whereas they used to be moderately common in AC3. :(

MnemonicSyntax
11-22-2013, 02:29 AM
Alright, so I spent some time boarding ships to test out the double counters. I never got one per se, but I did get about three or four of the double counter exclamation marks. Meaning, the double counter was invoked, but when I went to counter one, the other attacked me at the same time. This is as close as I've gotten to getting a "double counter" on a boat, sadly.

roostersrule2
11-22-2013, 02:34 AM
I got my first one the other day, it was pretty sick.

Kagurra
11-22-2013, 02:35 AM
I got my first one the other day, it was pretty sick.

What weapon?

roostersrule2
11-22-2013, 02:40 AM
What weapon?The swords.

Kagurra
11-22-2013, 03:41 AM
The swords.

Nice. I wonder if the single sword double counters are different from the ones in AC3.

ProletariatPleb
11-22-2013, 03:46 AM
Oh for the love of....yeah I'm sure it's really fun pressing 1 button and watching a minimovie how the player character kills 2 dumb AI guards because we need the game to be anymore automatic creed.

MnemonicSyntax
11-22-2013, 07:20 AM
Okay, so I did one on a ship, but it wasn't while it being boarded. It was damaged, I hopped off the Jackdaw and swam to a nearby island where I saw the damaged ship. Climbing aboard, there were loads of soldiers and after killing a few, the double counter happened.

Since boarding is a different script, I wonder if that makes combat different.

AssassinHMS
11-22-2013, 02:24 PM
Oh for the love of....yeah I'm sure it's really fun pressing 1 button and watching a minimovie how the player character kills 2 dumb AI guards because we need the game to be anymore automatic creed.

And they even talk about making an Assassin's Creed movie...............the only difference between that and recent AC games is the size of the screen.

roostersrule2
11-22-2013, 02:30 PM
And they even talk about making an Assassin's Creed movie...............the only difference between that and recent AC games is the size of the screen.Also the movie has better graphics, just my personal opinion but you know.

AssassinHMS
11-22-2013, 02:49 PM
Also the movie has better graphics, just my personal opinion but you know.
Youíre right!....................I forgot about that.



This...I'm mystified as to why they've never allowed us to de-equip ourselves. We couldn't in AC1 but that makes sense considering we can't personalize ourselves in any way, anyway. It was a pretty big oversight in AC2 but forgivable since they corrected numerous issues with the first game and then opened up the game world with more to do. But then Brotherhood had the same issue and at that point...it was pretty absurd. There was at least a glitch to remove *most* of the armor whereas AC2 didn't have that but that's just it -- it wasn't intended! Then Revelations came out...and we STILL couldn't remove armor without the use of a glitch. It's utterly ridiculous that they never addressed issues like this and it's because of casual fans who won't be bothered by anything so long as they can kill. :/
Yeah, it is a real shame. Iíd rather if they started other franchises (one about pirates, another about Uncharted in historical times, etc.) and left Assassinís Creed alone. They could do whatever they wanted to those other franchises (focus on naval, on explosions, on mindless actionÖ) but, at least, when it came to AC, they would actually focus on the core mechanics and on respecting the original concept.

JnrfL
11-22-2013, 03:20 PM
Yeah, it is a real shame. I’d rather if they started other franchises (one about pirates, another about Uncharted in historical times, etc.) and left Assassin’s Creed alone. They could do whatever they wanted to those other franchises (focus on naval, on explosions, on mindless action…) but, at least, when it came to AC, they would actually focus on the core mechanics and on respecting the original concept.

It really bugs me that since AC2 four games had been released and fans time and time again requested the feature to rid themselves of other weapons and even till now is still a problem for gamers. I believe this should had been added to AC ages ago. Can't they see that the fans just wanted the assassin they play to contain specialization? I mean its good and all that we could get the entire arsenal at our disposal, but how about those that prefer one or two weapons to use rather than all? I mean why would any assassin carry a weapon that he/she doesn't even use? Why can't the devs understand this logic? Right now I'm just thankful that I got a bug that lets you get rid of the blowpipe in the PS3 version of AC4 to work, but sadly it doesn't seem to be present for the PC version as no matter how much I've tried, the bug never appeared. (I've been applying it for hours already and still got nothing... :( )

EDIT: I wish they could reward Ezio's hidden blades when the Assassin reaches master rank or mentor rank. It got to be the best hidden blades so far. It's capability spans from a regular hidden blade extending to dishing out sleep darts, berserk darts and even shooting bullets. I want this rather than some stupid blowpipe to use darts... -_-"

AssassinHMS
11-22-2013, 03:36 PM
Well, I have got some bad news for you mate, AC series are casual games for casual gamers. Like most of the games in this generation. Welcome to next gen!

Indeed. I’m just curious to know one thing. Is becoming casual the fate of every franchise, band and person? Or is it more of a cycle and I’m simply unfortunate enough to live in this time?
What I mean is:
In the last decades I have found society has become a lot more casual and a lot shallower. That shows in today’s music, today’s fashions, in the way people act and in games as well. It’s as if there is a globalization of thoughts, of personalities. Maybe I’m wrong but it’s like there is a pressure from society that makes people act, more or less, all the same (with some exceptions) and that repels and outcasts those who think differently. Society is always changing but I have the feeling it is changing for worse, towards a more casual and brainless population. Now, I don’t know if this is just a phase and if it will change course or if it is evolving in one direction only (you know, the “easier” are people’s lives due to technological advances, the more casual their lives become and the more they give importance to the look and to shallow things and the more they remiss the core and the essence).



It really bugs me that since AC2 four games had been released and fans time and time again requested the feature to rid themselves of other weapons and even till now is still a problem for gamers. I believe this should had been added to AC ages ago. Can't they see that the fans just wanted the assassin they play to contain specialization? I mean its good and all that we could get the entire arsenal at our disposal, but how about those that prefer one or two weapons to use rather than all? I mean why would any assassin carry a weapon that he/she doesn't even use? Why can't the devs understand this logic? Right now I'm just thankful that I got a bug that lets you get rid of the blowpipe in the PS3 version of AC4 to work, but sadly it doesn't seem to be present for the PC version as no matter how much I've tried, the bug never appeared. (I've been applying it for hours already and still got nothing... :( )

If it was that obvious don’t you think Ubisoft would have addressed that already? The only explanation there is, is that it isn’t important to Ubisoft to give the option to remove weapons and armor. And why isn’t this important to them? Because the people they make these games for don’t care about that. This is just a detail to them. As long as they have mindless action, baby level difficulty and the cheap violence they don’t care what weapons or armor they have or what game they’re playing. People who care for these “details” are the ones who take their time with these games, who care for the actual Assassin’s Creed. But we aren’t Ubisoft’s target. Their target is the big market, the casual market, the ones that don’t care for such “details”. I’m not saying playing casually is wrong (I do it when I’m simply tired or bored and want to have some mindless fun), but destroying what AC stands for, for that play style is wrong. They shouldn’t adulterate the franchise for the bigger market. They should work on AC’s strengths and respect its concept and, if they want the big market, then they should make separate franchises with that purpose instead of killing AC’s essence and name.
So yeah, don’t expect them to listen to your or our calls.

Is the glitch you found, the one that also removes the hidden blades?

LemsterG
11-22-2013, 03:46 PM
Im at 98% Total Sync..... Had 1 Dual Counter Assassination.... Post Main Story =[

JnrfL
11-22-2013, 03:49 PM
Indeed. I’m just curious to know one thing. Is becoming casual the fate of every franchise, band and person? Or is it more of a cycle and I’m simply unfortunate enough to live in this time?
What I mean is:
In the last decades I have found society has become a lot more casual and a lot shallower. That shows in today’s music, today’s fashions, in the way people act and in games as well. It’s as if there is a globalization of thoughts, of personalities. Maybe I’m wrong but it’s like there is a pressure from society that makes people act, more or less, all the same (with some exceptions) and that repels and outcasts those who think differently. Society is always changing but I have the feeling it is changing for worse, towards a more casual and brainless population. Now, I don’t know if this is just a phase and if it will change course or if it is evolving in one direction only (you know, the “easier” are people’s lives due to technological advances, the more casual their lives become and the more they give importance to the look and to shallow things and the more they remiss the core and the essence).




If it was that obvious don’t you think Ubisoft would have addressed that already? The only explanation there is, is that it isn’t important to Ubisoft to give the option to remove weapons and armor. And why isn’t this important to them? Because the people they make these games for don’t care about that. This is just a detail to them. As long as they have mindless action, baby level difficulty and the cheap violence they don’t care what weapons or armor they have or what game they’re playing. People who care for these “details” are the ones who take their time with these games, who care for the actual Assassin’s Creed. But we aren’t Ubisoft’s target. Their target is the big market, the casual market, the ones that don’t care for such “details”. I’m not saying playing casually is wrong (I do it when I’m simply tired or bored and want to have some mindless fun), but destroying what AC stands for, for that play style is wrong. They shouldn’t adulterate the franchise for the bigger market. They should work on AC’s strengths and respect its concept and, if they want the big market, then they should make separate franchises with that purpose instead of killing AC’s essence and name.
So yeah, don’t expect them to listen to your or our calls.

Is the glitch you found, the one that also removes the hidden blades?

In my opinion you are right, fans like us that demand polishing of the core mechanics of AC are being ignored by Devs. Still its a hard pill to swallow, I would rather believe that our voice about these problems are still haven't been heard. :)

Yup, that's the one. Been doing DB missions and it came up for the PS3 version. :D I just hope the Devs doesn't remove it in future patches and let it occur in the PC version (Pretty please?).

AssassinHMS
11-22-2013, 04:14 PM
In my opinion you are right, fans like us that demand polishing of the core mechanics of AC are being ignored by Devs. Still its a hard pill to swallow, I would rather believe that our voice about these problems are still haven't been heard. :)
After 5 games repeating the same mistakes and 5 years of people complaining? Youíre optimistic, I guess. But hey, perhaps AC5 will have that option, given the number of threads in this forum and people who ask for it.


Yup, that's the one. Been doing DB missions and it came up for the PS3 version. :D I just hope the Devs doesn't remove it in future patches and let it occur in the PC version (Pretty please?).
And how does that glitch work?

Sushiglutton
11-22-2013, 04:20 PM
In all fairness the devs have listened to a ton of feedback I feel. For example much more open missions (this was my number one complaint for AC3), more robust stealth (this was my second biggest issue with AC3), much improved inventory, various systems feed into eachother way better, much better paced opening. Personally I have trouble taking someone seriously who claims that the devs have just ignored the fans. On the contrary I feel they have listened more than ever.

They have also clearly worked hard on improvoing the, for AC4, most important mechanics: naval and stealth.

AssassinHMS
11-22-2013, 05:06 PM
In all fairness the devs have listened to a ton of feedback I feel. For example much more open missions (this was my number one complaint for AC3), more robust stealth (this was my second biggest issue with AC3), much improved inventory, various systems feed into eachother way better, much better paced opening. Personally I have trouble taking someone seriously who claims that the devs have just ignored the fans. On the contrary I feel they have listened more than ever.

Ok, so let me explore your examples and show the reasons behind them.
Better paced opening. Most people complained about this, including those who play AC casually (in other words, most of the consumers) so it is no surprise Ubisoft fixed that. Ubisoft listens. I never said it doesn’t, but it listens to the big market, not to those who were there for AC since the start, not to the minority that cares for the actual AC and for its “details”. See the difference?

More robust stealth. Really? You call that an improvement after 5 games that should’ve improved stealth and make it in pair with other stealth games? A slight enhancement after five years of complaining, of making games with lousy and underdeveloped stealth that have almost no stealth elements, doesn’t mean a thing (especially since stealth is a core pillar and a huge factor of AC). Oh wait, actually it does mean something. After AC3, the AC game where stealth was hardly a viable option and after so many people unpleased with it Ubisoft didn’t have a choice but to improve stealth (so they did improve it a tiny little bit). Why? In order to win back older fans, in order to please the many people that were unsatisfied with it, in order to sell. They have to please everyone right? This was just a tiny effort to please those gamers that want stealth. Wow, after adulterating the series so much, they still remembered that we exist. They listen!

Open ended missions. You mean that after AC2, ACB, ACR and AC3, they finally brought those back? Wow, I’m so impressed. It seems they actually care enough about older fans’ money to comply after 4 games and satisfy one of their many wishes. The point where this has gone. Now every tiny thing that isn’t only for the casual market deserves a huge celebration and a compliment to the developers. “Thank you for not having completely forgotten about Assassin’s Creed and for bringing back this one thing that was there since the start of the series. Thank you for listening!”

But is AC’s stealth actually in a level comparable to other stealth games? No. Are the core mechanics well developed? No. When we ask them to remove weapons and armor do they listen? No. When we ask them to focus on AC’s core instead of hiding it with naval battles and mindless action do they listen? No, they make a pirate game with AC elements. Is combat better or still a joke? Still a joke. Do we have the option to put the hood up or down? No, it’s almost always down now.
Ubisoft listens to money. If what you want isn’t what the casual market wants or cares about then you can just forget it, even if all you want is a better AC game and not an open world Uncharted with assassins.

Edit: You feel like you've been listened more than ever? Then mission acomplished! By not completely ignoring all of you and doing 5% of what AC devs should have done long ago, we give the impression we listen and care for the franchise while not actually improving AC's core and spend our time focusing on everything AC is not.

MnemonicSyntax
11-22-2013, 05:08 PM
In all fairness the devs have listened to a ton of feedback I feel. For example much more open missions (this was my number one complaint for AC3), more robust stealth (this was my second biggest issue with AC3), much improved inventory, various systems feed into eachother way better, much better paced opening. Personally I have trouble taking someone seriously who claims that the devs have just ignored the fans. On the contrary I feel they have listened more than ever.

They have also clearly worked hard on improvoing the, for AC4, most important mechanics: naval and stealth.

I agree. There's still a few more bugs or things that don't make a whole lot of sense (throwing smoke bombs with free aim or the right side shoulder lean and shoot issue) but beyond that it's an incredible game that I love. Great job Ubisoft!

Signed, a fan from the beginning who cares very much about this franchise :)

MnemonicSyntax
11-22-2013, 05:25 PM
Ok, so let me explore your examples and show the reasons behind them.
Better paced opening. Most people complained about this, including those who play AC casually (in other words, most of the consumers) so it is no surprise Ubisoft fixed that. Ubisoft listens. I never said it doesn’t, but it listens to the big market, not to those who were there for AC since the start, not to the minority that cares for the actual AC and for its “details”. See the difference?

More robust stealth. Really? You call that an improvement after 5 games that should’ve improved stealth and make it in pair with other stealth games? A slight enhancement after five years of complaining, of making games with lousy and underdeveloped stealth that have almost no stealth elements, doesn’t mean a thing (especially since stealth is a core pillar and a huge factor of AC). Oh wait, actually it does mean something. After AC3, the AC game where stealth was hardly a viable option and after so many people unpleased with it Ubisoft didn’t have a choice but to improve stealth (so they did improve it a tiny little bit). Why? In order to win back older fans, in order to please the many people that were unsatisfied with it, in order to sell. They have to please everyone right? This was just a tiny effort to please those gamers that want stealth. Wow, after adulterating the series so much, they still remembered that we exist. They listen!

Open ended missions. You mean that after AC2, ACB, ACR and AC3, they finally brought those back? Wow, I’m so impressed. It seems they actually care enough about older fans’ money to comply after 4 games and satisfy one of their many wishes. The point where this has gone. Now every tiny thing that isn’t only for the casual market deserves a huge celebration and a compliment to the developers. “Thank you for not having completely forgotten about Assassin’s Creed and for bringing back this one thing that was there since the start of the series. Thank you for listening!”

But is AC’s stealth actually in a level comparable to other stealth games? No. Are the core mechanics well developed? No. When we ask them to remove weapons and armor do they listen? No. When we ask them to focus on AC’s core instead of hiding it with naval battles and mindless action do they listen? No, they make a pirate game with AC elements. Is combat better or still a joke? Still a joke. Do we have the option to put the hood up or down? No, it’s almost always down now.
Ubisoft listens to money. If what you want isn’t what the casual market wants or cares about then you can just forget it, even if all you want is a better AC game and not an open world Uncharted with assassins.

Can you explain this for me, because I'm not really understanding what you're saying.

You want AC to go back to it's core, but there was ZERO stealth in the first game besides hay stacks, sitting on benches and blending with a certain group of people. Oh, and "roof top gardens." But that's the core though, right? I know you want a crouch button, and light and dark, (I think that'll never happen) but what else are you proposing?

Yes, sometimes it's fairly stupid to see a man armed to the teeth mingle with a group of people and talk to them like he knows them. Even more so if he has a hood up. But beyond that, what else do you suggest?

You want it to compare to other stealth games? Give me examples please. I'm trying to paint a picture here.

Also, what do you want out of combat? I know you don't like double counters, but what else?

Perhaps you could take examples from games and put them together. The stealth of this game, the combat of this game, etc.

And I know you want realism, but what about leaps of faith? Do you know that out of everything you've mentioned about realism, that's the most common "joke/meme" about Assassin's Creed in other games, comics, and other parts of the internet that deal with things of that nature. Stuff like "missing the haybale" or breaking your neck when you hit, or, actually how hay isn't soft at all and it would hurt just as bad as hitting the ground? Would you want those removed too?

And stop saying about "fans from the beginning and those that care" I'm one of those people, and I find most of your ideas "not fun", which is what games are supposed to be. Yes, I agree there needs to be improvements, but weight balances, light/dark, etc. just doesn't seem fun and doesn't fit any core at all, because the core of AC is AC1, which had nothing like that whatsoever.

Landruner
11-22-2013, 05:59 PM
From UBISOFT example of Stealth games or games that have stealth that could be enhanced and equivalently used in an Assassin Creed - Splinter Cell, ghost Recon series uses stealth, strategy and appropriate AI, Far cry 3 uses Stealth with appropriate AI, and even R6 uses stealth with appropriate AI - I believe than just taking in some stealth templates from those games, and reworking them to make it work with the AC mechanics, it could result what my friend AssassinHMS tried to suggest about stealth in AC.
I have no desire that AC turns into an "only stealth" game, but they sure can improve the stealth system and make it more immersive and less swallow than it is, and then combine it with the other AC mechanics. The blending or social system needs to be improved as well. The mission design (Assassin mission) needs to be less repetitive or build on some differing template than (Follow that guy, ear, and tail him again) - That they use that time to time okay, but all the time, no. Besides even those tailing task have to be reworked in order to make them more enjoyable by the players

BTW: AssassinHMS. myself, and 2 or 3 other users gave some detailed descriptions in some suggestion about the combat systems, days ago on this same thread, which had been ignored or mocked, so, we turn in circle there, since some are asking now to post again what they ignored days ago.

MnemonicSyntax
11-22-2013, 06:01 PM
From UBISOFT example of Stealth games or games that have stealth that could be enhanced and equivalently used in an Assassin Creed - Splinter Cell, ghost Recon series uses stealth, strategy and appropriate AI, Far cry 3 uses Stealth with appropriate AI, and s even R6 uses stealth with appropriate AI - I believe than just taking in some stealth templates from those games, and reworking them to make it work with the AC mechanics, it could result what my friend AssassinHMS tried to suggest about stealth in AC.

BTW: AssassinHMS. myself, and 2 or 3 other USERS gave some detailed descriptions in suggestion about the combat systems days ago on this same thread, which had been ignored or mocked, so we turn in circle there, since some are asking now to post again what they ignored days ago.

Just for the record, I have you on my ignore list and don't take anything you say of any value. This will be the last time I tell you this or respond to anything you say. I am asking AssassinHMS, not you. Get the hint.

Thanks.

AssassinHMS
11-22-2013, 06:02 PM
Can you explain this for me, because I'm not really understanding what you're saying. You want AC to go back to it's core, but there was ZERO stealth in the first game besides hay stacks, sitting on benches and blending with a certain group of people. Oh, and "roof top gardens." But that's the core though, right? I know you want a crouch button, and light and dark, (I think that'll never happen) but what else are you proposing?
What do you mean with ďgo back to its coreĒ? Iím saying I want ACís core (combat, stealth and navigation) improved. AC1 had stealth. But yeah, youíre right it was underdeveloped. It didnít have enough stealth elements for a stealth game. It was AC2ís chore to improve the stealth and make it in par with other stealth games. Problem is, stealth remained pretty much untouched and always underdeveloped.


Yes, sometimes it's fairly stupid to see a man armed to the teeth mingle with a group of people and talk to them like he knows them. Even more so if he has a hood up. But beyond that, what else do you suggest?
What is social stealth? It is the ability to blend with crowds, to be visible but invisible. Like you said, the illusion that an assassin armed to the teeth can blend with other people (only two in AC3) is preposterous, it is immersion breaking and is a big reminder that it is just a game. What do I suggest? Give me the ability to buy, from a tailor, a cape that hides a crossbow or a bow, boots where I can place a knife, long sleeves to hide the hidden blade vambrace, a cane to conceal a sword, etc. If the player has weapons but doesnít conceal them, guards will be suspicious, they will react if the player gets to close and they will blame the player for any disturbance in the city. However, if the player has all the weapons concealed, enemies will treat him as an ordinary civilian.
Another problem with social stealth is the absurd amount of small groups of people (like in AC2) and the illusion that 4 people can conceal an assassin. Instead of placing small groups of NPCs every corner, make huge groups of NPCs spawn in certain locations (perhaps only once an escape is triggered). For example, if I am trying to escape some guards, the developers can let me listen to some music or to the sound of people cheering. By following the sound, I would find a group of people (24 NPCs) enjoying some festivities out in the open or inside a building. Then, I would get in the middle of the confusion of the crowd and wait for the pursuers to follow. Inside that ďmazeĒ, I would break their line of sight and proceed to walk away casually while the guards would be still trying to figure out my location inside the crowd. See? This is how you make social stealth work. Iíd also give other touches but Iím not going to extend my post any further about this in this thread.



You want it to compare to other stealth games? Give me examples please. I'm trying to paint a picture here.
The best example there isÖTHIEF. The old games (1, 2 and 3) had better stealth than AC and look how dated they are.


Also, what do you want out of combat? I know you don't like double counters, but what else?
I want actual combat. Right now ďcombatĒ is nothing but an easy way to trigger violent cutscenes. I want challenge and thrill and I want to have fun while fighting. What do I suggest?
I suggest the following:
I donít think the hidden blade should work as a weapon and, unless the assassin has other weapons with him at the time, it should only allow for some blocks with the bracer. As for sword combat it should be a matter of tiring the opponent (depleting a stamina bar) and catching him off guard (with swift and unexpected moves). In order to deplete the stamina bar the player would have to clash his swords with the opponentís and keep attacking using diversion moves (such as kicks, quick steps and maybe even a few punches). Once the stamina bar nears its depletion, the opponentís moves will be slower and weaker and the chance of a critical attack (such as a stab with a knife or an impalement with a sword) will increase. Also, combat needs to be much harder or else the whole game will suffer for it. And notice that, just because fighting more than 3 enemies at once is hard and more than 6 almost impossible, doesnít mean the game is difficult or that you will die a lot. Navigation, in the form of escape, is the answer in such dire situations.



And I know you want realism, but what about leaps of faith? Do you know that out of everything you've mentioned about realism, that's the most common "joke/meme" about Assassin's Creed in other games, comics, and other parts of the internet that deal with things of that nature. Stuff like "missing the haybale" or breaking your neck when you hit, or, actually how hay isn't soft at all and it would hurt just as bad as hitting the ground? Would you want those removed too?
Itís true I want realism, not for the sake of realism, but for the immersion and feel. As for the leap of faith, I think sometimes it may be too over the top, but I find it to be iconic as well. So yeah, Iím divided. Perhaps they could make it look more realistic (to make us think ďWow can he pull that offĒ instead of ďIt would obviously not work in reality so yeah, itís obvious itís going to work because itís just a gameĒ).


And stop saying about "fans from the beginning and those that care" I'm one of those people, and I find most of your ideas "not fun", which is what games are supposed to be. Yes, I agree there needs to be improvements, but weight balances, light/dark, etc. just doesn't seem fun and doesn't fit any core at all, because the core of AC is AC1, which had nothing like that whatsoever.

Believe me theyíd be a lot of fun. Perhaps itís simply because I canít explain as well as I wanted to.

MnemonicSyntax
11-22-2013, 06:15 PM
Alright, makes more sense now, but some of the things are a bit much. I like the combat idea, but the stamina meter isn't something I'd want. What about the player, would they have stamina too? I've read before about the weapons weight and having that related to running and slowing you down, but what about stamina itself? Swinging the sword too many times like Altair to get a hit in, does that make him stop and catch his breath?

And I really don't think they would be any fun at all. I like being a badass. There are some things I would change that we agree on. Hood up/down, removable weapons (though honestly I'm not too bothered by this, simply because each game felt like it fit. In 4, people are pirates walking around with swords and guns. People do it, guards to it, etc. In 3, I imagined Connor as a hunter, because, well, that bow made him seem like one. That hood though... it's a staple of the series and if I were a Templar and I saw a man armed to the teeth with a hood up, I would know something is up. If the hood was down perhaps, I'd think he was a hunter, or a pirate, or something that fits the series, so that part I get.

I do understand what you're saying better though and I feel that while your ideas are a bit extreme, there's some room for improvement.

Landruner
11-22-2013, 06:16 PM
Just for the record, I have you on my ignore list and don't take anything you say of any value. This will be the last time I tell you this or respond to anything you say. I am asking AssassinHMS, not you. Get the hint.

Thanks.

Forum rules

No Flaming
This includes any kind of personal insult, flame or intimidation. Responding in kind to a flame message is viewed as equally unacceptable, regardless of who started it. If you believe you are being insulted or otherwise flamed by another poster, please PM a forum moderator or admin rather than responding. This applies to both written text and image posting.

“Naming and shaming” suspected cheaters is also considered flaming given that it is rarely possible to prove guilt and only causes arguments. If you believe you have a strong case against a suspected cheater please contact the server operator (on PC) or report it to the Ubi tech support team.

There is no need to turn disagreements into heated arguments. Rather than letting these threads become flame wars please agree to disagree or the thread is likely to be locked.

No spamming
Repeatedly posting the same post or topic in a forum, or across multiple forums, is considered spamming. Such posts will be locked, edited or removed. Intentional off topic or nonsense posting is also likely to be considered spam and will receive the same treatment, especially if this takes an existing thread off topic. This applies to both written text and image posting which also includes Meme's.

If you think of something else you want to add to the thread, please use the Edit ****on rather than making multiple posts in a row as this may also be seen as spamming, whether intentional or not.

Stay on topic
Please make sure your post is going in the correct forum. We have specific forums for each game, some of them with their own Off Topic area or Community Help section. Threads that are off topic, or become so, may be moved or locked.
----------------------------------------
Besides you are bumping the topic for nothing, please stop! We disagree among us okay, but it does not make us idiots per se, we can still remain civilized, and perhaps, it is time to draw as line there.

MnemonicSyntax
11-22-2013, 06:27 PM
Forum rules

No Flaming
This includes any kind of personal insult, flame or intimidation. Responding in kind to a flame message is viewed as equally unacceptable, regardless of who started it. If you believe you are being insulted or otherwise flamed by another poster, please PM a forum moderator or admin rather than responding. This applies to both written text and image posting.

ďNaming and shamingĒ suspected cheaters is also considered flaming given that it is rarely possible to prove guilt and only causes arguments. If you believe you have a strong case against a suspected cheater please contact the server operator (on PC) or report it to the Ubi tech support team.

There is no need to turn disagreements into heated arguments. Rather than letting these threads become flame wars please agree to disagree or the thread is likely to be locked.

No spamming
Repeatedly posting the same post or topic in a forum, or across multiple forums, is considered spamming. Such posts will be locked, edited or removed. Intentional off topic or nonsense posting is also likely to be considered spam and will receive the same treatment, especially if this takes an existing thread off topic. This applies to both written text and image posting which also includes Meme's.

If you think of something else you want to add to the thread, please use the Edit ****on rather than making multiple posts in a row as this may also be seen as spamming, whether intentional or not.

Stay on topic
Please make sure your post is going in the correct forum. We have specific forums for each game, some of them with their own Off Topic area or Community Help section. Threads that are off topic, or become so, may be moved or locked.
----------------------------------------
Besides you are bumping the topic for nothing, please stop! We disagree among us okay, but it does not make us idiots per se, we can still remain civilized, and perhaps, it is time to draw as line there.

Right. Because responding to me like this is just keeping the cycle going. Please stop being a hypocrite.

And don't throw the rules at me. You are not a moderator/admin. You've insulted me more times than I can recall and put words in my mouth. You are not worth my time. There's not a rule I'm breaking by telling you I'm not responding to you any longer. Goodbye.

Landruner
11-22-2013, 06:27 PM
.




The best example there isÖTHIEF. The old games (1, 2 and 3) had better stealth than AC and look how dated they are.


Yes the thief series, however; even they push the stealth to the extreme they can only do it in a reserved Hub (Like inside a castle, or a fort for instance) and perhaps can get some very interesting moments...(?)

Landruner
11-22-2013, 06:30 PM
Right. Because responding to me like this is just keeping the cycle going. Please stop being a hypocrite.

And don't throw the rules at me. You've insulted me more times than I can recall and put words in my mouth. You are not worth my time. There's not a rule I'm breaking by telling you I'm not responding to you any longer. Goodbye.

ONE MORE TIME PLEASE STOP INSULTING ME!

Also consider that they are not only Anglophones on that forum

....and please bring something to "the table " instead

Did you enjoy your game on the PC like you mentioned like time, did you like the combat system? Do you think it should be re-worked like the OP suggested in bringing back old weapon(s) ?

AssassinHMS
11-22-2013, 06:55 PM
Alright, makes more sense now, but some of the things are a bit much.
Why do you say they are a bit much?


I like the combat idea, but the stamina meter isn't something I'd want. What about the player, would they have stamina too? I've read before about the weapons weight and having that related to running and slowing you down, but what about stamina itself? Swinging the sword too many times like Altair to get a hit in, does that make him stop and catch his breath?
Iíve thought about that as well. The player doesnít have a stamina bar other than the ďrealĒ one. In order to block, the player has to press the right button in a very small time window. Too soon and tougher enemies will be able to react and hit the player, too late andÖthe enemy inflicts massive damage. The player can also hold the block button, however he wonít be able to regain the upper hand like that and experienced enemies can easily get through the block. The more you force your enemy to block and the more combos you make (swing; quickstep; punch, for example) the quicker your enemiesí stamina will deplete, the slower his moves will become and the bigger the chance you can strike a finisher (impale, stab, etc.) by holding the attack button. This combat system focuses on the ability of outmaneuvering your opponent, on successive blocks and swings (like the real fights). Itís not a matter of ďhealthĒ or ďlife pointsĒ, itís about tiring your opponent and surprising him. Itís also not a matter of triggering small cutscenes. I also want to add that you can only block one enemy at once. If two enemies strike at once you will have to evade with a quick step or a roll. Oh and the stamina bar doesn't necessarily need to be visible as it can be displayed by the enemies' stance and moves.


And I really don't think they would be any fun at all. I like being a badass.
But you can still feel like a badass when facing one or two opponents at once. And not being able to defeat waves of enemies gives purpose to stealth, not to mention it adds tension, escaping becomes breathtaking and you are encouraged to think and plan like an assassin. I know this may not sound that fun, but you can only understand this once you play a game like that. The tension, the thrill and the fear can only be understood by experimenting them so I canít really explain how awesome this would be. However, I understand that you want an easy combat system so, perhaps the best solution is to implement difficulty levels. That way we could have the game we want and you could see for yourself if you liked the thrill and the tension that Iím talking about.


There are some things I would change that we agree on. Hood up/down, removable weapons (though honestly I'm not too bothered by this, simply because each game felt like it fit. In 4, people are pirates walking around with swords and guns. People do it, guards to it, etc. In 3, I imagined Connor as a hunter, because, well, that bow made him seem like one. That hood though... it's a staple of the series and if I were a Templar and I saw a man armed to the teeth with a hood up, I would know something is up. If the hood was down perhaps, I'd think he was a hunter, or a pirate, or something that fits the series, so that part I get.

Ok, but there are many people, like me, that want to feel like a mysterious hooded figure that relies only on the hidden blade and on his skill. Besides, this is a 3rd person game so we spend a lot of time looking at the assassin and these additions are really simple and wouldnít harm anyone.
All I know is that Ubisoft has only tried this one route and we canít know if the opposite one wouldnít be better without actually trying first. As far as I can tell, I truly think the route Iím suggesting is better and that it deserves a chance.

AssassinHMS
11-22-2013, 07:00 PM
Yes the thief series, however; even they push the stealth to the extreme they can only do it in a reserved Hub (Like inside a castle, or a fort for instance) and perhaps can get some very interesting moments...(?)

You're right. The new Thief developers actually wanted to make a true open world at first but they had to give up (I don't really remember why), still, there is a huge Hub and the stealth principles and elements are all there. So I'm really looking forward to this Thief reboot, the only things that concern me are the "Focus" and the absence of a jump button.

Landruner
11-22-2013, 07:04 PM
@AssassinHMS: I think the best in order to make in application what a good stealth (more improved stealth) could happen with the Assassin's Creed configuration is make a huge difference in the AI during the free roaming, and make a more pushy AI for the Stealth missions, and make sure that those areas where that stealth happen is really discoed from the open ended world. I am sure I explain my idea very well or clearly enough, but I believe that is the focus they should go - Make sure that the foes have a specific AI independent of the open world for some areas where stealth has to happen. That is the first point, now for the rest, since AI had been changed for those areas, the stealth enhancement can be reworked and improved to match along that AI system - The area where stealth happens have to be reworked to make sure that they provide a lot of different paths for the player to chose during their snaking parts. - (Like the Thief series, or Hitman series)

For the social blending (social health) same way - when a mission starts change the AI (NPCs & Foes) in order to make the all homogeny during the action that player do not think it is approximate or random.

Ubi-MoshiMoshi
11-22-2013, 07:05 PM
MnemonicSyntax and Landruner, please take your disputes with each other to PM or use the report button.

Landruner
11-22-2013, 07:09 PM
You're right. The new Thief developers actually wanted to make a true open world at first but they had to give up (I don't really remember why), still, there is a huge Hub and the stealth principles and elements are all there. So I'm really looking forward to this Thief reboot, the only things that concern me are the "Focus" and the absence of a jump button.

No jump button? that is dumb! - I have some reserve about that game since it is to me the exploitation of a game that got inspired by the series. but anyway I believe you got my concept about the hub story with a specific AI for area independent from the open world and the free-roaming gameplay. That is funny because ACB had moment like this but the AI was still the same, otherwise that is pretty much something that can be dome in some ACs

RetroGameGuy
11-22-2013, 07:22 PM
Im not so bothered about the dual counter assassinations but what I really miss is the ability to call in assassins and also the variety of weapons like the cherry bomb, crossbow, throwing knife etc.

AssassinHMS
11-22-2013, 07:22 PM
No jump button? that is dumb! - I have some reserve about that game since it is to me the exploitation of a game that got inspired by the series. but anyway I believe you got my concept about the hub story with a specific AI for area independent from the open world and the free-roaming gameplay. That is funny because ACB had moment like this but the AI was still the same, otherwise that is pretty much something that can be dome in some ACs

Yeah, I really like to explore the world and, even though Thief isn’t a fully open world game, it has a Hub (if I’m not wrong I think the reboot has more than one Hub where each one is different and unique). However, the exploration factor is still there and, in some ways, better than AC’s. In the city Hub you can explore the streets, you can spy on people, complete side missions, climb the rooftops and even break into houses and search for valuables (there are “special” valuables in hidden areas such as in a safe behind a painting). You also have the hideout which is the clock tower. So there is a lot to explore in Thief as it is far from completing a set of main missions. In many ways this Thief reboot seems to be taking ideas from Assassin’s Creed.

Landruner
11-22-2013, 08:10 PM
Im not so bothered about the dual counter assassinations but what I really miss is the ability to call in assassins and also the variety of weapons like the cherry bomb, crossbow, throwing knife etc.

Yes you are not the only one that misses those - Besides those toys were adding a lot to the replay values of the games.

Landruner
11-22-2013, 08:23 PM
Yeah, I really like to explore the world and, even though Thief isn’t a fully open world game, it has a Hub (if I’m not wrong I think the reboot has more than one Hub where each one is different and unique). However, the exploration factor is still there and, in some ways, better than AC’s. In the city Hub you can explore the streets, you can spy on people, complete side missions, climb the rooftops and even break into houses and search for valuables (there are “special” valuables in hidden areas such as in a safe behind a painting). You also have the hideout which is the clock tower. So there is a lot to explore in Thief as it is far from completing a set of main missions. In many ways this Thief reboot seems to be taking ideas from Assassin’s Creed.

Friend I know that some people wanted UBI to drop the open world to turn the all thing into HUBs, (Tomb Raiders like or Hitman like) I am not really for that idea for an AC.
However; some pieces in the city can be set has a hub like areas with a different AI different for each areas inside the open world - a bit like the (Tomb or Templar lair in some more open concept) reserved for a specific location such as a mansion with its gardens, a castle or a specific quartier inside a city - You see some points you can really access by free-roaming before you intend the specific mission there, and you have a specific AI for those location. For instance, you can only go to that mansion at night, because you can use the shadow for trying to hide and make you way...you have plenty of little scripted situation that you can use to your advantage or make sure to pay attention that they don't disadvantage you. If you get caught you may either fight or try to escape but the guards are smart enough to really look for you, even if the spot you find to hide, and you have to manage another spot in order to remain discreet and not attracting attention one more time on you since the guard know someone is there and will keep looking for you. something like that.

Rugterwyper32
11-22-2013, 08:33 PM
I think there are a few things that could improve the stealth and combat for the series, and here's the two main ones I think:

Stealth: Separate AI behaviors according to their location. The AI for city guards, for guards in forts/military areas and guards patrolling in places like a forest or whatnot should be different. City guards should be the most relaxed kind unless something happened, and they should have the fastest ways of communication (remember the snitches in AC3? Make them react in case a patrol finds a dead guard or something). The news among city guards would spread quickly and they would be alerted easier if corpses are found. Guards in military areas should be constantly vigilant, faster to react to seeing an unidentified person around and more aggressive. Guards around forests or natural places would be constantly vigilant, looking in all directions, checking bushes and being ready to fend off predators or highwaymen (or, obviously, the character himself)

Combat: One thing that I haven't been a big fan of regarding combat since ACB (and to a degree, AC2) is the lack of a sense of progression. In AC2, by sequence 5 you already have all the moves you need, and for navigation moves the last one you get is by sequence 7. If you include the DLC, that is just slightly past the halfway point of the game. ACB, ACR and AC3 (and from what I know, 4) you pretty much have all your moves already from the start. AC1 had a nice sense of progression, as you kept getting new things every target all the way up to the third to last one. After that, the final three targets were basically a test for you, to see if you had mastered all the moves you learned throughout the game. Against Maria, you had to face many soldiers in Jerusalem, including a pretty big amount of Templars, the toughest archetype. Against Robert, you had first to get through Arsuf which was waves upon waves of enemies, followed by a big fight against many Templars (need I remind you, the toughest archetype by far). Against Al-Mualim, you had to cross Masyaf first, and when you got to him, first you had to fight the illusions of your 9 targets (who were easy enough), then against many clones of Al-Mualim (who were rather tough) and following that your health would drop to basically nothing and one hit was enough to finish you off, finally followed by a final showdown where he finally died.
As you can see, the progression of your combat skills amounted to something. And there was actual progression. I still hold that full-on combat should be viable, but it should be harder to master, and that the more skills you have the tougher your enemies should be in return. The fight against the all the templars in Arsuf was tough, and there was a sense of satisfaction from being able to fight them all and win, even moreso if you mastered countering with the hidden blade. A sense of progression and getting more and better skills as the game goes on, bigger variety of moves and strategies, making defense break more timing-based again, making the counter window smaller and bringing in enemies that actually give you a good fight would go a long way, I'd say.

Landruner
11-22-2013, 08:52 PM
I think there are a few things that could improve the stealth and combat for the series, and here's the two main ones I think:

Stealth: Separate AI behaviors according to their location. The AI for city guards, for guards in forts/military areas and guards patrolling in places like a forest or whatnot should be different. City guards should be the most relaxed kind unless something happened, and they should have the fastest ways of communication (remember the snitches in AC3? Make them react in case a patrol finds a dead guard or something). The news among city guards would spread quickly and they would be alerted easier if corpses are found. Guards in military areas should be constantly vigilant, faster to react to seeing an unidentified person around and more aggressive. Guards around forests or natural places would be constantly vigilant, looking in all directions, checking bushes and being ready to fend off predators or highwaymen (or, obviously, the character himself)

Combat: One thing that I haven't been a big fan of regarding combat since ACB (and to a degree, AC2) is the lack of a sense of progression. In AC2, by sequence 5 you already have all the moves you need, and for navigation moves the last one you get is by sequence 7. If you include the DLC, that is just slightly past the halfway point of the game. ACB, ACR and AC3 (and from what I know, 4) you pretty much have all your moves already from the start. AC1 had a nice sense of progression, as you kept getting new things every target all the way up to the third to last one. After that, the final three targets were basically a test for you, to see if you had mastered all the moves you learned throughout the game. Against Maria, you had to face many soldiers in Jerusalem, including a pretty big amount of Templars, the toughest archetype. Against Robert, you had first to get through Arsuf which was waves upon waves of enemies, followed by a big fight against many Templars (need I remind you, the toughest archetype by far). Against Al-Mualim, you had to cross Masyaf first, and when you got to him, first you had to fight the illusions of your 9 targets (who were easy enough), then against many clones of Al-Mualim (who were rather tough) and following that your health would drop to basically nothing and one hit was enough to finish you off, finally followed by a final showdown where he finally died.
As you can see, the progression of your combat skills amounted to something. And there was actual progression. I still hold that full-on combat should be viable, but it should be harder to master, and that the more skills you have the tougher your enemies should be in return. The fight against the all the templars in Arsuf was tough, and there was a sense of satisfaction from being able to fight them all and win, even moreso if you mastered countering with the hidden blade. A sense of progression and getting more and better skills as the game goes on, bigger variety of moves and strategies, making defense break more timing-based again, making the counter window smaller and bringing in enemies that actually give you a good fight would go a long way, I'd say.

Yep, you nailed it you explained in better way what I tried to explain above. That is it, and I honestly think that is the way they should go for the stealth, totally agree with what you wrote
In this way they can work in improving the stealth system as well.

For the combat system ,I just think that if they make sure that the counter block parry does not always kill but wound instead, it gets better - Then, put a condition for the chain kill preventing the player to accumulate those in a row and getting ride of 50 guys around without being tired - that will change to odds as well - Then and finally, either their set different archetype of foes (or sub archetypes), or they replace it by leveling foes, like that the player does not know in advance which repetitive strategy to use in order to get ride of the foes. With those 3 elements with a better responsive AI from the foes, you get not only a fairly immersive fights, but you also get the satisfaction of not feeling a "badoss" killer just because you know the game's mechanics.

Rugterwyper32
11-22-2013, 08:59 PM
Yep, you nailed it you explained in better way what I tried to explain above. That is it, and I honestly think that is the way they should go for the stealth, totally agree with what you wrote
In this way they can work in improving the stealth system as well.

For the combat system ,I just think that if they make sure that the counter block parry does not always kill but wound instead, it gets better - Then, put a condition for the chain kill preventing the player to accumulate those in a row and getting ride of 50 guys around without being tired - that will change to odds as well - Then and finally, either their set different archetype of foes (or sub archetypes), or they replace it by leveling foes, like that the player does not know in advance which repetitive strategy to use in order to get ride of the foes. With those 3 elements with a better responsive AI from the foes, you get not only a fairly immersive fights, but you also get the satisfaction of not feeling a "badoss" killer just because you know the game's mechanics.

Yeah, I think you've nailed it pretty nicely. My problem with combat is not that it's easy to learn, but that it's too easy to master. The very moment you figure out the mechanics, it becomes really, really easy and there's really not a challenge at all. The one thing I was mentioning regarding AC1 is how it keeps introducing new skills and enemies that make you change your strategy and integrate your new moves to change the way you play around, so there's some difficulty to it even if only during that part of the sequence. But yeah, I like your idea regarding it.

AssassinHMS
11-22-2013, 09:37 PM
I think there are a few things that could improve the stealth and combat for the series, and here's the two main ones I think:

Stealth: Separate AI behaviors according to their location. The AI for city guards, for guards in forts/military areas and guards patrolling in places like a forest or whatnot should be different. City guards should be the most relaxed kind unless something happened, and they should have the fastest ways of communication (remember the snitches in AC3? Make them react in case a patrol finds a dead guard or something). The news among city guards would spread quickly and they would be alerted easier if corpses are found. Guards in military areas should be constantly vigilant, faster to react to seeing an unidentified person around and more aggressive. Guards around forests or natural places would be constantly vigilant, looking in all directions, checking bushes and being ready to fend off predators or highwaymen (or, obviously, the character himself)

Combat: One thing that I haven't been a big fan of regarding combat since ACB (and to a degree, AC2) is the lack of a sense of progression. In AC2, by sequence 5 you already have all the moves you need, and for navigation moves the last one you get is by sequence 7. If you include the DLC, that is just slightly past the halfway point of the game. ACB, ACR and AC3 (and from what I know, 4) you pretty much have all your moves already from the start. AC1 had a nice sense of progression, as you kept getting new things every target all the way up to the third to last one. After that, the final three targets were basically a test for you, to see if you had mastered all the moves you learned throughout the game. Against Maria, you had to face many soldiers in Jerusalem, including a pretty big amount of Templars, the toughest archetype. Against Robert, you had first to get through Arsuf which was waves upon waves of enemies, followed by a big fight against many Templars (need I remind you, the toughest archetype by far). Against Al-Mualim, you had to cross Masyaf first, and when you got to him, first you had to fight the illusions of your 9 targets (who were easy enough), then against many clones of Al-Mualim (who were rather tough) and following that your health would drop to basically nothing and one hit was enough to finish you off, finally followed by a final showdown where he finally died.
As you can see, the progression of your combat skills amounted to something. And there was actual progression. I still hold that full-on combat should be viable, but it should be harder to master, and that the more skills you have the tougher your enemies should be in return. The fight against the all the templars in Arsuf was tough, and there was a sense of satisfaction from being able to fight them all and win, even moreso if you mastered countering with the hidden blade. A sense of progression and getting more and better skills as the game goes on, bigger variety of moves and strategies, making defense break more timing-based again, making the counter window smaller and bringing in enemies that actually give you a good fight would go a long way, I'd say.

I like your ideas but I think combat really needs to be much harder for the sake of the stealth/navigation/combat balance and for the overall immersion.
And what do you think about the ideas I've posted here, in the last two pages, regarding the stamina based combat and the social stealth?
I also think a shadow/light stealth mechanic would be awesome for Assassinís Creed.

Rugterwyper32
11-22-2013, 10:30 PM
I like your ideas but I think combat really needs to be much harder for the sake of the stealth/navigation/combat balance and for the overall immersion.
And what do you think about the ideas I've posted here, in the last two pages, regarding the stamina based combat and the social stealth?
I also think a shadow/light stealth mechanic would be awesome for Assassin’s Creed.

Upon seeing your idea for stamina in combat, I can actually see it working rather well, and not only that, it would be actually easier to scale when it comes to adding difficulty settings. Say, there's two difficulty settings. So in one enemies would tire out easier and it would still be possible to go for killing countless enemies for those who want that (while being a system that requires more skill to master than the current one) while in the harder difficulty it would take a lot more skill and escaping would be the ideal in case of combat. It doesn't become a simple matter of "add or decrease health", but it would affect how you need to handle the enemies and whatnot. It's a pretty interesting idea, I think, and in harder difficulties the player would have to be active and even graceful to a degree to exhaust enemies and keep an eye out for the moment when the enemy is open to a lethal blow.
As for your idea for social stealth, I like it overall. Have huge crowds around a market or a plaza, find festivities going on in the open, and find places where the crowd is actually big, not just random groups of 4 all over the place that don't even work to hide your being there. In a way, it reminds me of the end of the CGI opening for AC1, the gate opens, Altair lets the crowd move in and suddenly he's vanished among the groups of people. That works. My only qualm with it is that for the parts of hiding your stuff you propose using the money system, and I've been thinking about pushing for the removal of it in favor of crafting and having to find the materials for improved weapons and overall equipment (in this case, including how to cover them up) by stealing them from certain places, infiltrating warehouses, military or otherwise, and getting it there (similar to the idea of plantations from AC4, just for a more assassin-like purpose rather than money gain), or hunting (which I feel is actually worth it and a good way of adding immersion to natural areas). I posted something regarding that on the future AC titles topic, so I'll paste it here.
As for light/shadow, it could work to some degree, I feel. Just as I mentioned different types of AI for different areas, the player should adjust in different areas. Social stealth in cities, but certain places in it at night with poor illumination would allow for that. Missions that require infiltrating an indoors area could have more focus on that, like in the case of areas like the secret locations, and moving around forest areas or caves could also involve that, more noticeable at night. A pretty basic system that could do, similar to what the Elder Scrolls has going. Not the most complex light/darkness stealth, but gets the job done.

Landruner
11-22-2013, 10:32 PM
Yeah, I think you've nailed it pretty nicely. My problem with combat is not that it's easy to learn, but that it's too easy to master. The very moment you figure out the mechanics, it becomes really, really easy and there's really not a challenge at all. The one thing I was mentioning regarding AC1 is how it keeps introducing new skills and enemies that make you change your strategy and integrate your new moves to change the way you play around, so there's some difficulty to it even if only during that part of the sequence. But yeah, I like your idea regarding it.

Like I mentioned above if the devs change the archetype in creating more types and multi sub - types or just replacing them by leveling NPCs that do not look all cloned from an archetypes you know, the odd are that you want anticipate a strategy in advance for getting them down, you are going to build it while fighting, and it is a way more interesting and less boring after a while. Besides if you have to happen to fight because you get spotted you think twice before engaging a fight, because you are not sure to win the fight and how is going to end.

Landruner
11-22-2013, 10:35 PM
I like your ideas but I think combat really needs to be much harder for the sake of the stealth/navigation/combat balance and for the overall immersion.
And what do you think about the ideas I've posted here, in the last two pages, regarding the stamina based combat and the social stealth?
I also think a shadow/light stealth mechanic would be awesome for Assassin’s Creed.

Yes stamina (fatigue) could be another factor to consider especially for the counter block and kill and the chain kill combos. That could be a nice parade in order to make the combat a bit more realistic. However; I am afraid that some could considering it a bit too RPGish to their taste as well. But you have some adventure/action based game that use this type of stamina as well, and their are not RPG games.

Rugterwyper32
11-22-2013, 10:44 PM
Ok, so here's the post I made back in the other topic. However, take note that some of these ideas have changed with elements discussed here, but I feel some of the basics of it still work and remain consistent.

"
So I've decided that I should use this topic for my gameplay idea posts and try to encourage discussion regarding, well, future AC games by keeping this topic going. This is based mostly on what HMS and Landrunner had going on another topic, and also the topic about more things to spend on with your in-game money, so that got gears going about how to tackle many things at once. As I mentioned to Landrunner in the other topic, this idea of mine was based on tackling 4 issues:

a) Make hunting fit into the assassination gameplay loop (It's clearly becoming an important part of the series, so the best idea I feel is to keep it but make sense of it in this gameplay loop)
b) Eliminate the inherent problems that come to any game with a money system by replacing it with something different
c) Leave combat as a viable option as it is, yet highly encouraging stealth and adding different risks to open combat rather than the usual "you died go back to the checkpoint"
d) Adjust the events around you depending on your gameplay style and making your choice between them significant

So, how do we go around it? Well, first things first, eliminate the money system. With that in mind, I looked up an idea which I discussed a few months ago with user dxsxhxcx regarding "an AC game that could make everyone happy" or something like that, and I'm bringing that back to a degree.
So how does this work? First off, bringing the combination of location you can take over and assassin hideout that was seen back in the Templar Dens in Assassin's Creed: Revelations. Say, 6 potential locations per city and make it so you can have one as you mission hub at a time, and maybe a few in the hub area of the game (Kingdom, Frontier, Caribbean area, you get what I mean). Now this is where it gets fun. First off, with the removal of the money system and shops, crafting becomes the one option you have. So, how do we go about it? Getting plans for new weapons by exploring and finding chests which wouldn't have money but either plans or materials, hunting for some other materials you might need for upgrades, replacing plantations with something (let's call it military barracks) where you can get plans for new weapons and upgrades the first time around and materials for them, and so on. And I have a few points here:

1. Crafting wouldn't be available anywhere except in your hideout location (your Masyaf, Monteriggioni, Homestead...) OR the templar dens you've taken and turned into assassin dens.
2. At first you'd start with only a few slots for weapons and tools (Only hidden blade, sword/dagger and a small number of whatever your tool is, plus fists) but as you upgrade you could have up to 4 tools (Say throwing knives, smoke bombs, poison darts and a crossbow) and either a big weapon, dual wielding swords/daggers, or a sword and a dagger separately. But of course, you'd have to earn it. And if you'd prefer playing with only the basic equipment, it's perfectly possible, and it could be so that things like stats actually have a meaning and make a difference when fighting difficult guard archetypes.

With that, points A and B have been adressed already. Hunting becomes part of the upgrade cycle which is actually useful, and with the lack of shops things like animal bones or skins become essential elements in this. You can't just go and buy poison darts: You need the stuff for them. Either get poisons from raiding the military barracks areas, or hunt, say, a poisonous snake and obtain a poison gland item that you can use to craft that poison.

Now you might be wondering, how does this fit the next two points? Well...
I mentioned Templar Dens for one reason: Templars CAN retake them. Sure, there was that silly tower defense minigame back in ACR, and your templar awareness status increased for every little thing you did (It was ever so slightly overreactive, you might agree) but I feel it WAS a good idea. So what is my idea here? Combine it a little with the idea of stalkers, just not quite.
See, the idea here is that this can adapt to your style and can affect how you get missions and how you report the results of them. Rather than making assassinations like they've been since AC2 (kill person, you magically beat the mission) bring back the return to the bureau. But you'll have to worry about a few factors:

1. If you've been too chaotic doing sidemissions or main missions, templars will send stalkers to follow you up to the point they find where you're going, the bureau where you report the results of your mission. There's 4 ways of handling that:
1.1. If they see that you've noticed them, they'll run to report it to their templar leader and if you fail the chase and they get to their base, they'll know your appearance, figure out based on that where the bureau is, the bureau will be attacked when you're not around and taken over. Seeing how there can be more than one depending on how much chaos you caused, you might catch one but the others might escape and they'll get the info anyway. And for a few days of in-game time, normal guards in that city would be replaced with harder archetypes (kinda like Revelations where early during the game you see mostly normal Ottoman soldiers and one heavy guard but later on you see at least 2 Janissaries with each group), so you could be stealthy for a few days of game time or just deal with it and be willing to fight more resilent enemies. In this case, retaking it is the one option.
1.2. If you like open combat, you can tell the bureau leader you were followed and prepare for battle and in the midst of the chaos find their leader and kill him, discouraging his troops, but should you fail and the bureau leader fall, the bureau will be taken over. It's the usual accessible combat of the series we're talking about, but on bigger scale and with a sense of tension as you'll be direly outnumbered (say, 30 to 5) and while you might be good, the AI would not be as skilled, plus this would be with a majority of enemies being not the usual soldiers but mostly among the hardest enemy archetypes.
1.3. If you'd prefer being stealthy but not having to worry about the stalkers, sneak around and take them out, it might be 1 or 3, but you can be stealthy enough to eliminate them by blending in and finding them before they find you or leading them towards a trap; or you can fully avoid them but that can only last for so long, as at one point they'll learn of the bureau in some way, so the best way is to misguide them entirely and take them out.
2. If you've failed at keeping control of the mission hub bureau then you can recover it, but it will not work as mission hub again, only as a normal hideout/crafting area. You'll have to designate one of the other, say, 5 hideouts, to turn it into your mission hub in the city.
3. If you are too loud and go towards your target just killing everything in sight in open combat, or if you're stealthy up to the moment of assassination itself and end up making it high profile, the idea of the 2006 demo that was shown would play out: The city gates WILL close. As mentioned before, there would be a few potential locations for the bureau in the city, but only 1 will be the mission hub, the others are hideouts. So you can either go to the one that is a mission hub to report you've succeeded, or if you've messed up multiple times you'll have to either a) simply get out of the city or b) get to the mechanism to open the city gates and go on from there. Either way you'll have to get to your main base from that point.
So here you can see that stealth would be the ideal, but if you're skilled enough to deal with hordes of the strongest enemy archetype and keep the other assassins safe or you simply don't mind running back to your main base at all every time to deliver mission results or get contracts, there's that. You would still get a lot of sidemissions from people in the cities rather than the assassins themselves, but as for contracts, you'd get them two ways, if you have mission hubs in the city you would get missions only regarding that city or the main Kingdom-like area, or you can get missions from your main base for all areas (when you opened up the pigeon coop or whatnot, it'd give you a small menu that has Kingdom/City A/City B/City C) but it'll be a longer trip clearly.
Unrelated, one addition that I think would be good is having two separate AI behaviors for enemies, city AI or wilderness/militarized area AI. And the addition of a crouch button which would be a double edge sword: On one hand, it would work well for areas where more usual stealth is the focus and where you don't have crowds but the environment would be to your advantage, plus it could add things like small passages under wooden stairs or whatnot; but on the other hand for social stealth it would be a move you'd avoid using as much as possible as it'd break blend, attract attention and all that.

So yeah, not sure how clearly I've explained this but I hope it would have worked. When it comes to equipment, upgrading is key and you have to earn it, so people who wish to go the full-on combat route can but by doing some extra effort to make that possible. People who want to play as hardcore as possible can keep the basic equipment which could prove completely ineffective against the difficult enemy archetypes thus adding tension. And so on. Exploration is rewarded for those who like the open world elements, for those who like combat it's a possibility but it's more of a challenge than it was before, for those who like stealth with variety the upgrades regarding stealth are there but they should also be earned. Player freedom is what I think should be key, and I think this idea works more or less. I had more in mind but I forgot and this is a freakin' essay by now so I'll just cut it short and leave it as it is. What do you think, everyone? "

Landruner
11-23-2013, 03:10 AM
Ok, so here's the post I made back in the other topic. However, take note that some of these ideas have changed with elements discussed here, but I feel some of the basics of it still work and remain consistent.

"
So I've decided that I should use this topic for my gameplay idea posts and try to encourage discussion regarding, well, future AC games by keeping this topic going. This is based mostly on what HMS and Landrunner had going on another topic, and also the topic about more things to spend on with your in-game money, so that got gears going about how to tackle many things at once. As I mentioned to Landrunner in the other topic, this idea of mine was based on tackling 4 issues:

a) Make hunting fit into the assassination gameplay loop (It's clearly becoming an important part of the series, so the best idea I feel is to keep it but make sense of it in this gameplay loop)
b) Eliminate the inherent problems that come to any game with a money system by replacing it with something different
c) Leave combat as a viable option as it is, yet highly encouraging stealth and adding different risks to open combat rather than the usual "you died go back to the checkpoint"
d) Adjust the events around you depending on your gameplay style and making your choice between them significant

So, how do we go around it? Well, first things first, eliminate the money system. With that in mind, I looked up an idea which I discussed a few months ago with user dxsxhxcx regarding "an AC game that could make everyone happy" or something like that, and I'm bringing that back to a degree.
So how does this work? First off, bringing the combination of location you can take over and assassin hideout that was seen back in the Templar Dens in Assassin's Creed: Revelations. Say, 6 potential locations per city and make it so you can have one as you mission hub at a time, and maybe a few in the hub area of the game (Kingdom, Frontier, Caribbean area, you get what I mean). Now this is where it gets fun. First off, with the removal of the money system and shops, crafting becomes the one option you have. So, how do we go about it? Getting plans for new weapons by exploring and finding chests which wouldn't have money but either plans or materials, hunting for some other materials you might need for upgrades, replacing plantations with something (let's call it military barracks) where you can get plans for new weapons and upgrades the first time around and materials for them, and so on. And I have a few points here:

1. Crafting wouldn't be available anywhere except in your hideout location (your Masyaf, Monteriggioni, Homestead...) OR the templar dens you've taken and turned into assassin dens.
2. At first you'd start with only a few slots for weapons and tools (Only hidden blade, sword/dagger and a small number of whatever your tool is, plus fists) but as you upgrade you could have up to 4 tools (Say throwing knives, smoke bombs, poison darts and a crossbow) and either a big weapon, dual wielding swords/daggers, or a sword and a dagger separately. But of course, you'd have to earn it. And if you'd prefer playing with only the basic equipment, it's perfectly possible, and it could be so that things like stats actually have a meaning and make a difference when fighting difficult guard archetypes.

With that, points A and B have been adressed already. Hunting becomes part of the upgrade cycle which is actually useful, and with the lack of shops things like animal bones or skins become essential elements in this. You can't just go and buy poison darts: You need the stuff for them. Either get poisons from raiding the military barracks areas, or hunt, say, a poisonous snake and obtain a poison gland item that you can use to craft that poison.

Now you might be wondering, how does this fit the next two points? Well...
I mentioned Templar Dens for one reason: Templars CAN retake them. Sure, there was that silly tower defense minigame back in ACR, and your templar awareness status increased for every little thing you did (It was ever so slightly overreactive, you might agree) but I feel it WAS a good idea. So what is my idea here? Combine it a little with the idea of stalkers, just not quite.
See, the idea here is that this can adapt to your style and can affect how you get missions and how you report the results of them. Rather than making assassinations like they've been since AC2 (kill person, you magically beat the mission) bring back the return to the bureau. But you'll have to worry about a few factors:

1. If you've been too chaotic doing sidemissions or main missions, templars will send stalkers to follow you up to the point they find where you're going, the bureau where you report the results of your mission. There's 4 ways of handling that:
1.1. If they see that you've noticed them, they'll run to report it to their templar leader and if you fail the chase and they get to their base, they'll know your appearance, figure out based on that where the bureau is, the bureau will be attacked when you're not around and taken over. Seeing how there can be more than one depending on how much chaos you caused, you might catch one but the others might escape and they'll get the info anyway. And for a few days of in-game time, normal guards in that city would be replaced with harder archetypes (kinda like Revelations where early during the game you see mostly normal Ottoman soldiers and one heavy guard but later on you see at least 2 Janissaries with each group), so you could be stealthy for a few days of game time or just deal with it and be willing to fight more resilent enemies. In this case, retaking it is the one option.
1.2. If you like open combat, you can tell the bureau leader you were followed and prepare for battle and in the midst of the chaos find their leader and kill him, discouraging his troops, but should you fail and the bureau leader fall, the bureau will be taken over. It's the usual accessible combat of the series we're talking about, but on bigger scale and with a sense of tension as you'll be direly outnumbered (say, 30 to 5) and while you might be good, the AI would not be as skilled, plus this would be with a majority of enemies being not the usual soldiers but mostly among the hardest enemy archetypes.
1.3. If you'd prefer being stealthy but not having to worry about the stalkers, sneak around and take them out, it might be 1 or 3, but you can be stealthy enough to eliminate them by blending in and finding them before they find you or leading them towards a trap; or you can fully avoid them but that can only last for so long, as at one point they'll learn of the bureau in some way, so the best way is to misguide them entirely and take them out.
2. If you've failed at keeping control of the mission hub bureau then you can recover it, but it will not work as mission hub again, only as a normal hideout/crafting area. You'll have to designate one of the other, say, 5 hideouts, to turn it into your mission hub in the city.
3. If you are too loud and go towards your target just killing everything in sight in open combat, or if you're stealthy up to the moment of assassination itself and end up making it high profile, the idea of the 2006 demo that was shown would play out: The city gates WILL close. As mentioned before, there would be a few potential locations for the bureau in the city, but only 1 will be the mission hub, the others are hideouts. So you can either go to the one that is a mission hub to report you've succeeded, or if you've messed up multiple times you'll have to either a) simply get out of the city or b) get to the mechanism to open the city gates and go on from there. Either way you'll have to get to your main base from that point.
So here you can see that stealth would be the ideal, but if you're skilled enough to deal with hordes of the strongest enemy archetype and keep the other assassins safe or you simply don't mind running back to your main base at all every time to deliver mission results or get contracts, there's that. You would still get a lot of sidemissions from people in the cities rather than the assassins themselves, but as for contracts, you'd get them two ways, if you have mission hubs in the city you would get missions only regarding that city or the main Kingdom-like area, or you can get missions from your main base for all areas (when you opened up the pigeon coop or whatnot, it'd give you a small menu that has Kingdom/City A/City B/City C) but it'll be a longer trip clearly.
Unrelated, one addition that I think would be good is having two separate AI behaviors for enemies, city AI or wilderness/militarized area AI. And the addition of a crouch button which would be a double edge sword: On one hand, it would work well for areas where more usual stealth is the focus and where you don't have crowds but the environment would be to your advantage, plus it could add things like small passages under wooden stairs or whatnot; but on the other hand for social stealth it would be a move you'd avoid using as much as possible as it'd break blend, attract attention and all that.

So yeah, not sure how clearly I've explained this but I hope it would have worked. When it comes to equipment, upgrading is key and you have to earn it, so people who wish to go the full-on combat route can but by doing some extra effort to make that possible. People who want to play as hardcore as possible can keep the basic equipment which could prove completely ineffective against the difficult enemy archetypes thus adding tension. And so on. Exploration is rewarded for those who like the open world elements, for those who like combat it's a possibility but it's more of a challenge than it was before, for those who like stealth with variety the upgrades regarding stealth are there but they should also be earned. Player freedom is what I think should be key, and I think this idea works more or less. I had more in mind but I forgot and this is a freakin' essay by now so I'll just cut it short and leave it as it is. What do you think, everyone? "

I could not more agree with your point of view above Rugterwyper32, and I believe that you, AssassinHMS and I and some others as well, we should start making our own Assassin creed in order to show Ubisoft how things should be done - LOL!, :rolleyes:

More seriously yes, Rugterwyper32 that are some cool ideas you mentioned above, and we should get more ideas from other people and make a list of ideas in order to see what can be concretely done and what could not be a possibility or nor being realizable for different reasons or technical reason. We have to make a list of concrete suggestions considering that those concept has to be popular before we can list them and suggest them for application.

For preventing the all misunderstanding with other some users that read us for the past posts and for a few days now with our numerous exchanges, and for the ones that could just come over and just jumping in the train, I believe that we all agree that we don't want that franchise only changes because we don't like it. We only just suggest ideas in order to make it better for the players to enjoy because we think that it is the best way it should be done, but not because this is the way we want to see it done. We just want to make the gameplay better because we think that this gameplay could work for a future AC game(s) and hopefully we are right...
So I will say, all suggestions and ideas from other users are welcome to follow...

Landruner
11-23-2013, 05:18 AM
Without trying to be off topic comparing to the OP referring to the system combat and weapons, I just add some elements as a follow up concerning the gameplay.

After going through the past posts and after seeing in one of the suggestion concerning social blending mentioned by Assassin-HMS, I was thinking for the social blending or social stealth could be set with some kind of AI parameter in order to make it more immersive - For instance while blending with a group of people, some of those people could react after a while and start asking question of your intrusion among them depending upon the discretion and how their AI react to your presence among the, which could be a bit more challenging and tiny bit more unpredictable for the player by the fact of not only the character has to be discreet with the guards around, but also has to pay some attention how the character behaves while trying to disappear among some ground of people also. I know that it seems maybe a bit too much in the gameplay and it could turn into a pile of frustration, but if advanced with proper AI, making sure that some group of NPCs could react this way, and making sure that the character's animations allows to emphasis his behaving and attitude toward the ground, it could make social blending a bit more interesting in the immersion...(?)

This type of AI and reactions from the NPCs could also being set for some missions especially the tailing ones if the re-worked and enhanced like the template I previously suggested in order to make them less boring and repetitive.

simbaaa126
11-25-2013, 10:09 PM
I had an idea to do with the Assassin recruits. I don't know if any of you have played RainbowSix Vegas 2, but in the game you are the leader of a task force group. So you take control of the two other members and tell them what to do, and have either the option of infiltrate (stealth) or assault. I think in a way, this could work in AC. For example, you could call in your assassin recruits, and tell them to run/hide places to create stealth on your attack, much like the infiltrate option in RainbowSix. This way, it actual puts use of the assassin recruits, and adds a more stealthy option to them, rather then have them killing anyone they see. And you can control their actions, telling them what to do, and work together as a group. They could follow you around until you tell them to leave. If anyone has played that game you will understand what I am talking about.

Kagurra
11-25-2013, 10:12 PM
So now that I've played the game quite a bit on Xbox one, I've yet to encounter a double counter. I've had the opportunity before but since I was in a combo I instinctively killed one of the guys and normal countered the second guy. I've done this a few times, sadly.

Landruner
11-25-2013, 11:38 PM
So now that I've played the game quite a bit on Xbox one, I've yet to encounter a double counter. I've had the opportunity before but since I was in a combo I instinctively killed one of the guys and normal countered the second guy. I've done this a few times, sadly.

Hello Kargurra.! Yep they however happen and still there but they are not as frequent as AC3 - I don't know why? Perhaps because on the fight in the ships? However; you may meet some in fighting guards in the cites....

Kagurra
11-29-2013, 02:11 AM
So got two double counters yesterday. One of them was with the single sword, and I forget what the other one was with. It seems like the "Scout" enemies are more likely to attack you in twos.

Hofner Chris
11-29-2013, 05:58 AM
I got my first double counter yesterday. It was awesome. It's too bad that this is so rare in this game.

MuddledMuppet2
11-29-2013, 03:36 PM
It's been buried in the thread, but you can 'force', or at least significantly increase the likelihood of dual counters by making fights last longer. I've had most success by continually counter/disarm, after a few goes the usually attack together.
It's certainly not the quickest way to work thru missions etc, but fun to do when you're just freeroaming badassery

MnemonicSyntax
11-29-2013, 06:36 PM
I was playing through the story and got my first 2 "natural" double counters (see Muddled's post above by "natural) at the worst possible time.

I was fighting El Tiburon, and the optional objective is to use two guards as meat shields. I got two double counters IN A ROW while waiting to use the guards as shields.

FML. -.-;

Sushiglutton
11-29-2013, 06:39 PM
I was playing through the story and got my first 2 "natural" double counters (see Muddled's post above by "natural) at the worst possible time.

I was fighting El Tiburon, and the optional objective is to use two guards as meat shields. I got two double counters IN A ROW while waiting to use the guards as shields.

FML. -.-;

Lol that is pretty funny actually.

MuddledMuppet2
11-29-2013, 07:14 PM
I was playing through the story and got my first 2 "natural" double counters (see Muddled's post above by "natural) at the worst possible time.

I was fighting El Tiburon, and the optional objective is to use two guards as meat shields. I got two double counters IN A ROW while waiting to use the guards as shields.

FML. -.-;

hahahaha oh man that is just pure epic, thanks for making me larf!

Ludio_Scriba
11-29-2013, 07:52 PM
I think you guys are ignoring the simple fact that different time periods require different tactics. Requiring different combat. Just like between AC and AC2 the removal of a finger was not necessary. Also it depends on the character portraying the Assassin. Altair was a badass but the videos to the games have always kind of hinted later developments. The video for AC showed Altair using a crossbow. But Ezio is the first person to actually use the crossbow. Connor was Native American. They were guerilla fighters. That is why combat was changed to that for AC3. They did not wait to be attacked. Same idea with Pirates. But what I actually liked about AC4 as much as a hindrance. Is that you could still get your *** kicked late in game. For countering another attacker while attacking has always been at the right time in order to make it happen. I also liked that for most of the game you are a pirate. Not a templar or assassin. You do as you please. And alot of the missions in the game did require you to use stealth or you got desynched or didn't get full synch. Like when you first meet the assassins meeting up with Kidd. The blade in the crowd is still present but it has evolved since times have evolved.

Kagurra
11-30-2013, 12:14 AM
I think you guys are ignoring the simple fact that different time periods require different tactics. Requiring different combat. Just like between AC and AC2 the removal of a finger was not necessary. Also it depends on the character portraying the Assassin. Altair was a badass but the videos to the games have always kind of hinted later developments. The video for AC showed Altair using a crossbow. But Ezio is the first person to actually use the crossbow. Connor was Native American. They were guerilla fighters. That is why combat was changed to that for AC3. They did not wait to be attacked. Same idea with Pirates. But what I actually liked about AC4 as much as a hindrance. Is that you could still get your *** kicked late in game. For countering another attacker while attacking has always been at the right time in order to make it happen. I also liked that for most of the game you are a pirate. Not a templar or assassin. You do as you please. And alot of the missions in the game did require you to use stealth or you got desynched or didn't get full synch. Like when you first meet the assassins meeting up with Kidd. The blade in the crowd is still present but it has evolved since times have evolved.

I don't really see how that's related.