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View Full Version : Expansion 4 suggestion: Counter Outmanuver rushes



razcrux
11-13-2013, 06:51 PM
Hello there,

I think we all knew Santuary was going to get stronger, but I don't think anyone really anticipated just how strong adding just one more outmaneuver card to their cost curve was going to become. Outmanuver counters very hard any deck that tries to do more of a control-game and play for the late game. the exception is if you have a lot of area spells, like Insect Swarms.

As I noted in my other thread, Earth and Air magic currently lack synergy; resulting in weak Stronghold heroes that combine these schools.

Here is an idea or two that attempts to provide solutions vs. Outmanuver while at the same time also creating better synergy between these two schools.

=-=--==-=-=--=-==-=-
New mechanic:

Steadfast (Steadfast creatures may not be moved, relocated or returned to your hand by your opponents' Spells or Creatures)

The idea behind Steadfast is that it is a stronger form of Anchored. Note however that it doesn't protect the creature from Fortunes*. Steadfast can be an ability granted by Earth spells and also intrinsic on some Creature cards from different factions (like how Fear is seen on different creature cards here and there on different factions)

Examples:

Haven - Creature
Golumn Warrior
2 Cost
1 Might, 2 Magic, 0 Destiny
1 Attack, 0 Retaliate, 4 Life
Golumn Warrior, and all friendly adjacent creatures gain Steadfast.

This is an example of what a card for each/several factions might look like. Academy is actually a faction that would really need Steadfast to counter Sanctuary rush since their low-cost creatures are not capable of dealing with outmaneuver very well.

Stronghold - Fortune
Iron Wings
3 Cost
2 Might, 0 Magic, 2 Destiny
Ongoing fortune: All your flying creatures gain Steadfast

Earth - Spell
3 cost
0 Might, 3 Magic, 0 Destiny
Ongoing: Enchanted creature gains +1 Attack and Steadfast

Air - Spell
3 cost
0 Might, 5 Magic, 0 destiny
Return all creatures to player's hand that do not have Steadfast
Anchored counters this ability implicitly and therefore does not need to be listed explicitly

-==-=-=--=-=-=-==--=-=-==-

The last three cards together would create a network of synergy. Earth can give Steadfast, protecting you from out-maneuver and puppet master and it also gives a +1 attack so that the card has immediate value, as well as value in situations where the steadfast is less critical (general application vs. specific counter). The air spell here now works completely in synergy with earth cards that anchor and/or give your cards steadfast. Creating strong synergy between the two schools and really helping heroes out like Kat.

Thanks for reading!

=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-==-

* It doesn't protect from Fortunes because currently Fortune decks have a very hard time dealing with counters. However if more Fortune-based counters appeal, this exception can be removed and it can just say "by your opponent" and keep the mechanic simpler. I'm actually more in favor of keeping the mechanic simpler and giving fortune based counters instead -- less is more.

Aegon82
11-20-2013, 11:05 AM
I don't think we need these ability. We already have anchored. It is great against sanctuary, dark magic and fortune decks. So it needs a little drawback of not being able to move it yourself neither.

Also, from my experience, control decks do pretty good against sanctuary decks, it's just that people don't play control because Ammar was instant lose. But after Ammar nerf, we are free to play those Malik decks again.

seryu5
11-21-2013, 02:38 PM
best way to counter outmanouvre are the un-targetting events i guess

Crimson84
11-23-2013, 11:03 PM
how does anchored work against dark magic?

Aegon82
11-25-2013, 11:01 AM
how does anchored work against dark magic?

It counters puppet master and enthrall.

Crimson84
11-25-2013, 12:55 PM
It counters puppet master and enthrall.
I had no idea but it makes sense! Now, if only I could use anchored with Haven.... (not related to dark magic, just to stop Ishuma)

Aegon82
11-25-2013, 03:47 PM
I had no idea but it makes sense! Now, if only I could use anchored with Haven.... (not related to dark magic, just to stop Ishuma)

You can use ice shell with Sandalphon and Morgan.

historicmuffin
11-26-2013, 10:06 PM
I really like the Haven creature idea, it seems really effective with a balanced drawback.

razcrux
11-27-2013, 02:08 AM
The reason that Anchored is not sufficient is because it counters YOUR own movement as well. If you play earth+air you can't use Air abilities, nor your unique-hero to move anchored creatures. Anchored is also not something I'd want to see as a counter to Sanctuary outmaneuver because it then forces you to not be able to move against any other opponent.

Steadfast is proposed/designed to only block your opponent from moving you. Indirectly also countering WOMBO COMBO which is honestly not a bad thing.

sachavier
12-04-2013, 01:28 PM
From my point of view the problem isn't realy outmanoeuvre by him self, it's his synergy with hypnotise.

Outmanoeuver should be countered in a way by vivacity, but with hypnotise it's just impossible.

I think things could be way different if hypnotise didn't affect vivacity, or if sanctuary couldn't outmanoeuvre hypnotise creature.

And here I don't even talk about the synergy with ambush and Raya. All these combined, I don't see how you can deal with sanctuary without spells.

gabusan
01-28-2014, 09:15 PM
This steadfast ability sounds solid idea and a good alternative to anchored, because anchored creatures + broken bridge could be devastating. Lets hope developers are considering something like this. Hacen already has creatures that grant protection against ranged, melee and flying, and these are effective counters against rushes. Why not protection against outmanuver?

Blitz556
01-29-2014, 07:50 AM
This steadfast ability sounds solid idea and a good alternative to anchored, because anchored creatures + broken bridge could be devastating. Lets hope developers are considering something like this. Hacen already has creatures that grant protection against ranged, melee and flying, and these are effective counters against rushes. Why not protection against outmanuver?
Because too many hard counters turn the game into little more than rock-paper-scissors. If this steadfast idea is implemented the devs will be able to release far better outmaneuver creatures that fit in the cost curve without hampering the overall balance as steadfast will function as the hard counter to decks that'll use outmaneuver. Then people will be complaining about Ishuma becoming even better than now and raping every creature deck that isn't a Haven steadfast deck.

Many people, perhaps then even including you might be saying things like, "how much more punishment should we endure for using creature decks?", "so I don't deserve to have a chance cause I don't use some gay steadfast-prison lock deck?", "brainless rush decks everywhere! Why DoC, why?", "I don't like Ishuma"... okay people already say all these. They'll just say these even more.

Overall all this idea is gonna do is allowing another hard counter. There is already Anchored. A less hardcore, possible alternative could be a spell/fortune/creature that allows you to move a friendly Anchored creature/move friendly Anchored creatures for 1 turn etc. The only thing I like about this steadfast idea is the cool name.

gabusan
01-29-2014, 08:55 PM
Because too many hard counters turn the game into little more than rock-paper-scissors. If this steadfast idea is implemented the devs will be able to release far better outmaneuver creatures that fit in the cost curve without hampering the overall balance as steadfast will function as the hard counter to decks that'll use outmaneuver.

So are we sure developers will stop releasing outmaneuver creatures for Sanctuary if there is no counter for them? Because if Ishuma is going to get better and better, I would rather have some creatures around that can fight back. Haven could be just one of the factions with a Steadfast creature among their ranks. Wouldnt it be nice for Stronghold to pack something else beyond their usual roster, something that will only really help against outmaneuvre and be just average against other decks? Isnt that a form of balance too?

Blitz556
01-30-2014, 03:33 AM
So are we sure developers will stop releasing outmaneuver creatures for Sanctuary if there is no counter for them? Because if Ishuma is going to get better and better, I would rather have some creatures around that can fight back. Haven could be just one of the factions with a Steadfast creature among their ranks. Wouldnt it be nice for Stronghold to pack something else beyond their usual roster, something that will only really help against outmaneuvre and be just average against other decks? Isnt that a form of balance too?
You can be (almost) sure it'll be very difficult to balance out good, new outmaneuver creatures without making Ishuma OP unless such a hard counter becomes available. And the devs probably won't want to release something that makes such a highly used hero even more powerful.

And again, anchored IS a counter to outmaneuver, it's just not a hard counter that makes the game rock-paper-scissor. So it's not like there ain't no counter to it.

gabusan
02-01-2014, 04:09 AM
You can be (almost) sure it'll be very difficult to balance out good, new outmaneuver creatures without making Ishuma OP unless such a hard counter becomes available. And the devs probably won't want to release something that makes such a highly used hero even more powerful.

And again, anchored IS a counter to outmaneuver, it's just not a hard counter that makes the game rock-paper-scissor. So it's not like there ain't no counter to it.

What creature has anchored to fight back the initial outmaneuvre rush, again? Besides the non attacking bramble beast of stronghold and voide shade for milling, that doesnt care about outmaneuvre in the first place? Because by the time you can cast a spell that gives your creatures anchored, the game is over if you have been outmaneuvred. If you are suggesting that developers should release more anchored creatures instead of more steadfast creatures, wouldnt more anchored creatures make things like broken bridge and throne of renewal too deadly, since you can use that to have your anchored creatures attack unnopposed? Since steadfast is not imprevious to fortunes, it would have less potential for abuse than this steadfast idea.

Jarema03
02-01-2014, 09:36 AM
Maybe 'steadfast' creature could work, if it was cheap. weak neutral one?

Bazaltovy
02-02-2014, 09:57 AM
It's funny that you are talking about Ishuma's dominance a few weeks/months after it has finished. :D

Blitz556
02-02-2014, 07:55 PM
Actually this convo (at least for me) was more about how logical it is to demand a hard counter to a card you don't like. Basically the suggestion is to introduce a whole new ability just to counter Ishuma and seems doesn't even consider that opens an window to making Ishuma even more usable without hampering overall balance. Never liked these rock-paper-scissor style balancing much.