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lothario-da-be
10-31-2013, 09:29 AM
Hi everyone. I am having a blast with ac4. I am in sequence 7 now and played for more then 20 hours. But somethings is bothering me. Sequences with only 3 memories. Do you guys know how much memories the other ac games had in total? I am unable to search for it at the moment.

Farlander1991
10-31-2013, 09:34 AM
In this thread (http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/789399-AC3-Stealth-Needed-in-the-Main-Campaign-statistic) I've counted the non-cutscene and non-eavesdropping (in case of AC1, which is almost the same as cutscene) memories.

AC1 has 61 non-eavesdrop missions (that's including all other investigations, less if you include only mandatory investigations)
AC2 has 85 non-cutscene missions (including the 2 DLCs, 67 without them, but DLCs are part of the main path)
ACB has 48 non-cutscene missions (without DaVinci's DLC I think)
ACR has 52 non-cutscene missions
AC3 has 44 non-cutscene missions

I would like to add that just number of memories is not everything. AC2, honestly, had quite a lot of kinda ****ty/filler memories, I would take a Sequence with 3 meaty missions over a Sequence with 6 'meh' memories.

roostersrule2
10-31-2013, 10:19 AM
I would like to add that just number of memories is not everything. AC2, honestly, had quite a lot of kinda ****ty/filler memories, I would take a Sequence with 3 meaty missions over a Sequence with 6 'meh' memories.AC2 didn't have many filler missions and AC2's story had the best pacing in the series I guess 6 'meh' mission beat 3 meaty ones, especially when the 'meaty' ones are boring as ****.

Farlander1991
10-31-2013, 10:28 AM
AC2 didn't have many filler missions and AC2's story had the best pacing in the series I guess 6 'meh' mission beat 3 meaty ones, especially when the 'meaty' ones are boring as ****.

I would argue that AC2 story has second to worst pacing in AC games (with the worst one being AC3), but we have argued about that already if I remember correctly.

There IS filler in AC2 main campaign. We have two tutorial missions for hidden pistol in a row (one would've been enough). We have missions where the ONLY objective is to walk and talk to a person, and that's it, that's the whole memory (and there are a few times when it works and serves a purpose, but there are other times when it's like, 'this is useless'). But at the moment I don't have enough time to list all the missions from AC2 that should've been changed or cut out.

PS. If 3 missions are boring as ****, then, logically speaking, they aren't meaty ;) :p

roostersrule2
10-31-2013, 10:36 AM
I would argue that AC2 story has second to worst pacing in AC games (with the worst one being AC3), but we have argued about that already if I remember correctly.AC2 second worst pacing? Are you serious? I could understand if you didn't like it's story but it's pacing was perfect.


There IS filler in AC2 main campaign. We have two tutorial missions for hidden pistol in a row (one would've been enough). We have missions where the ONLY objective is to walk and talk to a person, and that's it, that's the whole memory (and there are a few times when it works and serves a purpose, but there are other times when it's like, 'this is useless'). But at the moment I don't have enough time to list all the missions from AC2 that should've been changed or cut out.Of course there's filler in AC2's campaign, in regards to the two pistol missions though, true only one was needed, but one showed how to use it and the other showed some extra gameplay features of it, like killing the enemy without going to close so the enemy doesn't kill the girl or whatever. As for walking and talking, the only two I can think of is the walk to the Villa from Florence and Leo and Ezio figuring out the importance of the codex/apple, both were important. Also AC4 has a LOT of walking and talking missions.


PS. If 3 missions are boring as ****, then, logically speaking, they aren't meaty ;) :pMeaty means that it has a lot of content, not how good or fun they are.

Farlander1991
10-31-2013, 10:58 AM
AC2 second worst pacing? Are you serious? I could understand if you didn't like it's story but it's pacing was perfect.

It's pacing was good until Venice and then during Venice it just gets obliterated into oblivion, so, yes, second worst pacing.


As for walking and talking, the only two I can think of is the walk to the Villa from Florence and Leo and Ezio figuring out the importance of the codex/apple, both were important.

I will get back to you on that later.


Also AC4 has a LOT of walking and talking missions.

Those walking and talking missions though aren't the sole thing that happens in them (for the most part at least, I'm not trying to argue AC4's level design since I have to experience it for my own rather than from videos), though. (Also, walk and talk and eavesdropping are two different things, since at least in eavesdropping you have to try to do something other than... well, walk... also, I'm not saying ABOLISH ALL WALK & TALK MISSIONS, they're fin if not overused)

But still, for example, the first memory in Havana in AC4 - we walk and talk with Bonnet, climb up a building, then chase a thief, then go to the bar and get into a bar fight and then run away. All that is tutorial stuff, sure, but the point is, in AC2 that would've been like 3 missions at the least.

For example, the very first beginning in Florence in AC2: fight on the bridge, go see a doctor, go climb a building - those are THREE separate memories.
We find La Volpe and follow him to the Novella in two separate memories. It could've been one.

Farlander1991
10-31-2013, 11:30 AM
Pure walk & talk missions:
1) Friend of the family (talking with Leonardo)
2) Casa Dolce Casa (tour of the villa)
3) A Change of Plans (second tour of the villa, though this one admittedly reveals actual game mechanics and side-quests)
4) Benvenuto (tour of Venice)
5) If at First You Don't Succeed (walking with Antonio to check the Palazza)
6) Nun the Wiser (walking with Teodora to the Carnival)


Walk & Talk missions with a little barely noticeable distraction (lesser offenders, but still not that interesting):
1) Arrividerci (leaving Florence, you have to find a way to get past the guards at the gates though but that's it)
2) Florentine Fiasco (there's a little fight there, but it's walk and talk with Machiavelli mostly)
3) A Warm Welcome (mostly walk & talk with Caterina & Machiavelli, with a small actual goal at the very end of opening the gates)
4) Tutti A Bordo (it's more of 'swim and talk', which is somewhat refreshing I suppose)

Walking & Talking with Leonardo about the apple/codex, btw, is actually a part of a much bigger mission where you have to infiltrate a location and then follow a guy, so I'm not counting it here.

But yeah, that's 10 out of 85 missions which are for the most part nothing more than talking. The number of such missions in AC4 seems to be, well... 0. Okay, 1, in sequence 11, all others have a lot more to them than that (but that 1 is much more original than any other 'walk & talk' mission.

There are also quite a few missions which are just "go from point A to point B" without even talking in AC2.

Not to mention AC2 has the largest amount of memories that are nothing but a single cutscene (but I don't count them as missions in the list in one of the previous posts).

Then there are missions that somehow got into the main campaign that by all means should be secondary missions, like killing random treacherous thieves in Venice for example (that's not even a tutorial for anything, by all rights that mission shouldn't be in the main campaign).

EDIT: Sorry, there's also the Old Cove mission in AC4 which is essentially like the 'A Change of Plans' in terms of its content and purpose (this is why I'm saying that I need to play it myself rather than base on walkthroughs), so, it's 1/2 missions depending on what you count that mission from Sequence 11.

roostersrule2
10-31-2013, 12:32 PM
It's pacing was good until Venice and then during Venice it just gets obliterated into oblivion, so, yes, second worst pacing.Well I disagree, but opinions are opinions.


Those walking and talking missions though aren't the sole thing that happens in them (for the most part at least, I'm not trying to argue AC4's level design since I have to experience it for my own rather than from videos), though. (Also, walk and talk and eavesdropping are two different things, since at least in eavesdropping you have to try to do something other than... well, walk... also, I'm not saying ABOLISH ALL WALK & TALK MISSIONS, they're fin if not overused)

But still, for example, the first memory in Havana in AC4 - we walk and talk with Bonnet, climb up a building, then chase a thief, then go to the bar and get into a bar fight and then run away. All that is tutorial stuff, sure, but the point is, in AC2 that would've been like 3 missions at the least.

For example, the very first beginning in Florence in AC2: fight on the bridge, go see a doctor, go climb a building - those are THREE separate memories.
We find La Volpe and follow him to the Novella in two separate memories. It could've been one.And what difference does it make if it's 3 missions or one? They still flow well and just because there is other parts to a mission it doesn't make the walking and talking part any less tedious or boring.

Farlander1991
10-31-2013, 12:35 PM
And what difference does it make if it's 3 missions or one?

Well... yeah. Precisely. :p Which is why I'm saying in the first post I've made in this thread that it's not the number of memories in the sequence that's important :p

(Also, case in point, AC4 still doesn't have as much walk & talk as AC2 even if we don't take into account existence of pure walk & talk missions).


The thief one was also to prove your worth amongst the thieves and it also helped them, by killing traitors.

And it's important to the main plot because...? ACB didn't have a problem delegating such things to secondary missions, and it was right. It's not a tutorial of any kind of mechanic, and there are other missions in that same sequence that are proving your worth that actually matter.

roostersrule2
10-31-2013, 12:48 PM
Pure walk & talk missions:
1) Friend of the family (talking with Leonardo)
2) Casa Dolce Casa (tour of the villa)
3) A Change of Plans (second tour of the villa, though this one admittedly reveals actual game mechanics and side-quests)
4) Benvenuto (tour of Venice)
5) If at First You Don't Succeed (walking with Antonio to check the Palazza)
6) Nun the Wiser (walking with Teodora to the Carnival)


Walk & Talk missions with a little barely noticeable distraction (lesser offenders, but still not that interesting):
1) Arrividerci (leaving Florence, you have to find a way to get past the guards at the gates though but that's it)
2) Florentine Fiasco (there's a little fight there, but it's walk and talk with Machiavelli mostly)
3) A Warm Welcome (mostly walk & talk with Caterina & Machiavelli, with a small actual goal at the very end of opening the gates)
4) Tutti A Bordo (it's more of 'swim and talk', which is somewhat refreshing I suppose)

Walking & Talking with Leonardo about the apple/codex, btw, is actually a part of a much bigger mission where you have to infiltrate a location and then follow a guy, so I'm not counting it here.

But yeah, that's 10 out of 85 missions which are for the most part nothing more than talking. The number of such missions in AC4 seems to be, well... 0. Okay, 1, in sequence 11, all others have a lot more to them than that (but that 1 is much more original than any other 'walk & talk' mission.

There are also quite a few missions which are just "go from point A to point B" without even talking in AC2.

Not to mention AC2 has the largest amount of memories that are nothing but a single cutscene (but I don't count them as missions in the list in one of the previous posts).

Then there are missions that somehow got into the main campaign that by all means should be secondary missions, like killing random treacherous thieves in Venice for example (that's not even a tutorial for anything, by all rights that mission shouldn't be in the main campaign).

EDIT: Sorry, there's also the Old Cove mission in AC4 which is essentially like the 'A Change of Plans' in terms of its content and purpose (this is why I'm saying that I need to play it myself rather than base on walkthroughs), so, it's 1/2 missions depending on what you count that mission from Sequence 11.With the missions you listed, could you imagine the game without them? One introduced Leo. The tours of both Venice and the Villa were helpful in that you didn't just get lost. The Antonio one was more then walk and talk, you're scouting the Palazzo it had to be done, there's also climbing and what not in it and As for Teodora's walk to Carnevale well instead of putting what she could have said in a cutscene it was put in a walk and talk mission instead, that introduced us to her and Carnevale.

Also the thief one was also to prove your worth amongst the thieves and it also helped them, by killing traitors. Not every mission has to advance the story and as for the missions being only cutscenes or having no cutscenes what's your point?

roostersrule2
10-31-2013, 12:54 PM
Well... yeah. Precisely. :p Which is why I'm saying in the first post I've made in this thread that it's not the number of memories in the sequence that's important :p

(Also, case in point, AC4 still doesn't have as much walk & talk as AC2 even if we don't take into account existence of pure walk & talk missions).I never said it was? It's just when the 'meaty' missions are terrible it's not better then the smaller missions.

Well I haven't finished AC4 so I wouldn't know but, the amount of missions where I've had to walk and talk, eavesdrop or follow someone are a lot more noticeable then they were in AC2 and those 3 mission types are very similar.


And it's important to the main plot because...? ACB didn't have a problem delegating such things to secondary missions, and it was right. It's not a tutorial of any kind of mechanic, and there are other missions in that same sequence that are proving your worth that actually matter.
I actually put that in my other post because I edited the wrong one but anyway it doesn't have to be important, like I said in my other post not every mission has to advance the story.

Farlander1991
10-31-2013, 01:08 PM
Well I haven't finished AC4 so I wouldn't know but, the amount of missions where I've had to walk and talk, eavesdrop or follow someone are a lot more noticeable then they were in AC2 and those 3 mission types are very similar.

The difference between 'walk & talk' goals and eavesdrop/follow ones is that the fun of the second ones depends on good level design (at the least, also good mechanics). And by changing the level design you also variate how that goal is completed. 'Walk & talk' sections don't have such thing.


I actually put that in my other post because I edited the wrong one but anyway it doesn't have to be important, like I said in my other post not every mission has to advance the story.

Then put those missions as secondary. As far as I'm concerned, main missions in games like these should either:
a) advance the plot
b) advance character development/relationship between characters/understanding of characters
c) introduce to a certain mechanic (perfect if this is somehow merged with a or b, like the Fort mission that we saw in one of the preview demos, it introduces a mechanic but also sets up plot advancement)

roostersrule2
10-31-2013, 01:14 PM
The difference between 'walk & talk' goals and eavesdrop/follow ones is that the fun of the second ones depends on good level design (at the least, also good mechanics). And by changing the level design you also variate how that goal is completed. 'Walk & talk' sections don't have such thing.Well if you were walking and talking in a mine field I'm sure it'd be much different.


Then put those missions as secondary. As far as I'm concerned, main missions in games like these should either:
a) advance the plot
b) advance character development/relationship between characters/understanding of characters
c) introduce to a certain mechanic (perfect if this is somehow merged with a or b, like the Fort mission that we saw in one of the preview demos, it introduces a mechanic but also sets up plot advancement)Why though? Is a non-important mission going to ruin the game for you?

The mission also did advance the understanding/relationship between Ezio and the thieves so it did hold some importance by your criteria.

Farlander1991
10-31-2013, 01:26 PM
Why though? Is a non-important mission going to ruin the game for you?

I've spent hours just spending time in the Homestead in AC3, so, no. But if it's not important then it should be labeled as such.

But, hey, maybe we should put all Courtesan, Thief and Mercenary side-missions in ACB in the main path? They're thematically related to taking down the Borgia. But they're side-missions for a reason.


The mission also did advance the understanding/relationship between Ezio and the thieves so it did hold some importance by your criteria.

In what way and with which thieves? That mission doesn't even have an ending dialogue or anything, even Ugo's (a totally pointless character we don't see ever again beyond a few missions, btw) thinking of Ezio changes in totally different missions. It's pure filler.

roostersrule2
10-31-2013, 01:33 PM
I've spent hours just spending time in the Homestead in AC3, so, no. But if it's not important then it should be labeled as such.

But, hey, maybe we should put all Courtesan, Thief and Mercenary side-missions in ACB in the main path? They're thematically related to taking down the Borgia. But they're side-missions for a reason.It's one mission though. It's not a whole side story it's just a mission which holds little importance, it's in the main story. Who gives a ****?


In what way and with which thieves? That mission doesn't even have an ending dialogue or anything, even Ugo's (a totally pointless character we don't see ever again beyond a few missions, btw) thinking of Ezio changes in totally different missions. It's pure filler.You know, the thieves in Venice.

There are countless missions in AC that don't have ending dialogue, they're still important. It was also Ezio scratching the thieves back so when the times come they'd scratch his, it strengthened the bond between Ezio and the thieves.

Farlander1991
10-31-2013, 01:37 PM
It's one mission though. It's not a whole side story it's just a mission which holds little importance, it's in the main story. Who gives a ****?

Then why the **** it's there?


You know, the thieves in Venice.

I.e. spherical thieves in vacuum, which is why it's ********.


It was also Ezio scratching the thieves back so when the times come they'd scratch his, it strengthened the bond between Ezio and the thieves.

So, you want to say that Ezio saving one of the thieves from death, rescuing from imprisonment others, stealing uniforms with them so they could infiltrate and get rid of a person who really messes up with the thieves is not scratching/bond-shaping enough?

EDIT: And while we're at it, the characters of Ugo and Antonio should've been merged, with Antonio originally being somewhat distrustful of Ezio. We never see Ugo beyond that sequence, and Antonio as a character is static as ****. And MAYBE then that mission would also have made sense, because it's Antonio who asks to do it in the first place. But, this mission (and the fact that Ugo is pointless) is nothing in comparison to the cluster**** that are the Carnivale and Arsenal sequences.

lothario-da-be
11-01-2013, 11:00 AM
In this thread (http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/789399-AC3-Stealth-Needed-in-the-Main-Campaign-statistic) I've counted the non-cutscene and non-eavesdropping (in case of AC1, which is almost the same as cutscene) memories.

AC1 has 61 non-eavesdrop missions (that's including all other investigations, less if you include only mandatory investigations)
AC2 has 85 non-cutscene missions (including the 2 DLCs, 67 without them, but DLCs are part of the main path)
ACB has 48 non-cutscene missions (without DaVinci's DLC I think)
ACR has 52 non-cutscene missions
AC3 has 44 non-cutscene missions

I would like to add that just number of memories is not everything. AC2, honestly, had quite a lot of kinda ****ty/filler memories, I would take a Sequence with 3 meaty missions over a Sequence with 6 'meh' memories.
Thanks bro was realy helpfull.

roostersrule2
11-01-2013, 12:33 PM
Then why the **** it's there?Because the devs wanted it there.


So, you want to say that Ezio saving one of the thieves from death, rescuing from imprisonment others, stealing uniforms with them so they could infiltrate and get rid of a person who really messes up with the thieves is not scratching/bond-shaping enough?

EDIT: And while we're at it, the characters of Ugo and Antonio should've been merged, with Antonio originally being somewhat distrustful of Ezio. We never see Ugo beyond that sequence, and Antonio as a character is static as ****. And MAYBE then that mission would also have made sense, because it's Antonio who asks to do it in the first place. But, this mission (and the fact that Ugo is pointless) is nothing in comparison to the cluster**** that are the Carnivale and Arsenal sequences.Indeed the bond was strong but it just strengthened it, it's also giving the thieves a larger part in the game.

Well having two main thieves isn't really great, so they made a third it's no big deal. I'd hardly call Carnivale and the Arsenale sequences cluster****s, they're not even clustered.

Jackdaw360
11-01-2013, 01:03 PM
Sequence 13 is a cut-scene, and I think 10 is just one mission.

In one of Ezio's games it took me ages to complete, as there were alot of missions. AC3 took me a day, but then again I skipped all the cut-scenes. Probably because I watched half of the gameplay on YouTube. :(