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killzab
10-20-2013, 08:10 PM
Apparently from all the info I gathered, Edward will have a very limited amount of weapons compared to previous assassins.

So, in total we will be able to use :

-Hidden blades
-Guns
-Double swords
-A blowpipe

That's it ?!!

And I know you can probably pick up some other weapons from enemies but since you can't keep them and have them in your weapon wheel at your disposal, they don't really count.

If I'm right, I fear combat will feel repetitive very quickly :(

ACfan443
10-20-2013, 08:13 PM
I prefer it this way. Main characters were becoming far too bloated with useless weapons, I'm glad they've stripped it back to the essentials.

pacmanate
10-20-2013, 08:15 PM
I prefer it this way. Main characters were becoming far too bloated with useless weapons, I'm glad they've stripped it back to the essentials.

I second this. This is why I liked AC1. Hidden Blade for assassinations, short blade for large enemy groups, Normal sword for a few enemies and knives for ranged attacks.

silvermercy
10-20-2013, 08:17 PM
I think it's better this way... Weren't people complaining some time ago about the amount of rarely used weapons!?

Mr_Shade
10-20-2013, 08:17 PM
I'm happy with just hidden blades.. and a sword..

Wolfmeister1010
10-20-2013, 08:17 PM
You forgot ropedarts, smokebombs.

Its better than having throwing knives, gun, crossbow, and 3 different types of bombs to make you unstoppable and unbelievably OP.

It is better this way. Its back to a sort of AC1 kind of simplicity. I like it. You have your iconic assassin weapon, your main attack weapons, your quiet long range weapon, and loud long range weapon. Then you have your smoke bomb for diversions, and ropedart for a unique stealth weapon.

That is the perfect amount of weapons.

aeroaxe3
10-20-2013, 08:18 PM
IIRC he also has rope darts. He might have a dagger too. But like the others said, that's probably a good idea. Besides, two blades, two swords, four guns, and a blowpipe with two types of darts should be more than enough.

xboxauditore
10-20-2013, 08:19 PM
Edward has two swords. TWO. SWORDS. What more do you want?

ladyleonhart
10-20-2013, 08:19 PM
... Weren't people complaining some time ago about the amount of rarely used weapons!?

Yes, people were complaining about a certain Assassin being a one-man army, even though all the Assassins are. ;)

dex3108
10-20-2013, 08:21 PM
I would like to fight only with hidden blades and bare hands XD

LoyalACFan
10-20-2013, 08:21 PM
It beats having an entire arsenal of useless weapons.

Wolfmeister1010
10-20-2013, 08:23 PM
Yes, people were complaining about a certain Assassin being a one-man army, even though all the Assassins are. ;)

Lets see...ezio had, his iconic assassin weapons, a small melee weapon, a long melee weapon, an OP gun that take a half second to reload, 3 different types of bombs to carry, a crossbow with 25 bolts, 25 throwing knives, a poison blade, a poison dart gun,....it is just WAY too much.

xboxauditore
10-20-2013, 08:24 PM
It beats having an entire arsenal of useless weapons.

Much like Ratohnhaké:ton had.

silvermercy
10-20-2013, 08:27 PM
Lets see...ezio had, his iconic assassin weapons, a small melee weapon, a long melee weapon, an OP gun that take a half second to reload, 3 different types of bombs to carry, a crossbow with 25 bolts, 25 throwing knives, a poison blade, a poison dart gun,....it is just WAY too much.
LOL Indeed! Ezio was "guilty" of that, too.

Wolfmeister1010
10-20-2013, 08:27 PM
Much like Ratohnhaké:ton had.

More so with ezio. You can not argue against that.

The only useless weapons connor had were poison darts and trip mines. I used all his other weapons a lot, depending on the situation. Ezio had like 5 unessesary weapons.

STDlyMcStudpants
10-20-2013, 08:32 PM
I kind of got the same feel..
He seems very limited compared to ACR Ezio and especially Connor.
I feel like we will get very minimal animations (hope im wrong)

ladyleonhart
10-20-2013, 08:34 PM
Lets see...ezio had, his iconic assassin weapons, a small melee weapon, a long melee weapon, an OP gun that take a half second to reload, 3 different types of bombs to carry, a crossbow with 25 bolts, 25 throwing knives, a poison blade, a poison dart gun,....it is just WAY too much.

I definitely do agree with you, and it will certainly be more realistic. How Ezio physically carried all that stuff and where he hid it in his robes, I will probably never understand. :P

All I really want in AC are hidden blades and I don't mind so much about everything else. Although, a sword is great since Edward is a pirate, and I quite like the rope dart. As for the blowpipe, it will aid stealth of course, but ONLY if you are quick enough. ;)

Wolfmeister1010
10-20-2013, 08:35 PM
I definitely do agree with you, and it will certainly be more realistic. How Ezio physically carried all that stuff and where he hid it in his robes, I will probably never understand. :P

Thats why Skyrim and all other bethesda games frustrate me :p

AssassinHMS
10-20-2013, 08:36 PM
That is actually a positive thing. Don't forget this is assassin's creed not warrior's creed. All an assassin needs is skill and a hidden blade, he doesn't even need to be a good fighter.

Assassin's Creed thrill comes from sneaking using crowds and shadows, knowing that, if you mess up and get detected you'll have to think and act very quickly in order to escape your pursuers or else you'll die.
Being able to kill many enemies (more than 2 at once) without breaking a sweat makes the player feel like he has control over the situation, hence the need to experiment different weapons. However, that kills all the rush and all the fun in being forced to run for your life.

If AC's combat wasn't so easy there would never have arisen the need for more weapons. Combat needs to be hard because that is where all the fun is.

I-Like-Pie45
10-20-2013, 08:37 PM
Thats why Skyrim and all other bethesda games frustrate me :p

that's why mods exist

once you get the hang of mods, you should def. start trying them out

but to their credit - at least its possible to actually become over-encumbered with all your stuff in those RPGs (Fallout at least) and move like a snail

STDlyMcStudpants
10-20-2013, 08:42 PM
Lol the idea of a "pack" never bothered me...
You guys think about this stuff too much lol

Jexx21
10-20-2013, 08:44 PM
rofl....

Altair:
Fists
Hidden Blade
Sword
Dagger
Throwing Knives

Ezio:
Fists
Hidden Blade(s)
Hidden Gun
Poison Blade
Sword
Dagger
Throwing Knives
Poison Darts
Crossbow
Lethal Bombs
Tactical Bombs (includes smoke bombs)
Diversionary Bombs

Connor:
Fists
Hidden Blade
Tomahawk
Pistols
Bow
Rope Darts
Smoke Bombs
Sword
Poison Darts
Tripwire Bombs

Aveline:
Fists
Hidden Blades
Machete
Sword
Pistol
Blowpipe: Poison Darts
Blowpipe: Berserk Darts
Whip (basically a rope dart but usable in parkour)
Smoke Bombs

Edward (confirmed weapons):
Fists
Hidden Blades
Dual Cutlasses
Pistols
Blowpipe: Sleep Darts
Blowpipe: Berserk Darts
Rope Darts
Smoke Bombs

So Edward is only really lacking two items from Connor's (in-game) arsenal: Short weapon and Tripwire bombs.

Jexx21
10-20-2013, 08:45 PM
That is actually a positive thing. Don't forget this is assassin's creed not warrior's creed. All an assassin needs is skill and a hidden blade, he doesn't even need to be a good fighter.

Assassin's Creed thrill comes from sneaking using crowds and shadows, knowing that, if you mess up and get detected you'll have to think and act very quickly in order to escape your pursuers or else you'll die.
Being able to kill many enemies (more than 2 at once) without breaking a sweat makes the player feel like he has control over the situation, hence the need to experiment different weapons. However, that kills all the rush and all the fun in being forced to run for your life.

If AC's combat wasn't so easy there would never have arisen the need for more weapons. Combat needs to be hard because that is where all the fun is.

That's not what Assassin's Creed is about, that's what you want it to be about (even though it was never about that).

Not even Assassin's Creed (2007) was about that as it's easy to take out hordes of enemies.

I-Like-Pie45
10-20-2013, 08:46 PM
Jexx, where is Adaveleine?

STDlyMcStudpants
10-20-2013, 08:47 PM
Rope darts are back in AC IV?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!!
Oh praise the lord!

GreySkellig
10-20-2013, 08:47 PM
I am definitely a fan of this more stripped-down approach.

AC:B era Ezio was undoubtedly the most guilty of this. As somebody mentioned, most of Connor's tools at least filled a niche, even if they weren't strictly necessary. Ezio had FOUR (count 'em) ranged weapon types which basically allowed you to steamroll your way through guarded areas if you wanted. Even Connor didn't really need the trip mines and smoke bombs (something about AC3's combat just made them kinda superfluous).

The one thing I will definitely miss though is Connor's bow. Yeah, it had some detection issues. Yeah, it wasn't that useful once combat opened. And yeah, it was kinda weird that you could shoot a brute two or three times before he went down. But in the right scenario, that thing was doggone fun. I loved using it to clear guards in alleys or flanking doors--take the corner, line them up, draw to full strength and shoot through both of them. Felt like a very specific set of strengths and weaknesses. I would have loved to see it with an actual free-aim mechanic, but obviously the bow doesn't exactly fit every time period. Maybe we'll see it again depending on future AC settings.

Regardless of my sadness over the bow, I think Edward is better off with a narrower set of tools. Besides, he's still got the ropedarts...(I wonder if they'll still be a cheap way of taking out heavy archetypes).

Oh lordy, the thought just occurred to me that you might be able to rope-dart somebody in a boarding action and actually hang them from the yard-arms. Historically accurate and BA.

Jexx21
10-20-2013, 08:49 PM
Yea, I really hope that if the next game is a Connor sequel that the bow and pistols have free-aim mechanics.

Jexx21
10-20-2013, 08:52 PM
Jexx, where is Adaveleine?

I don't know Adewale's full weapon set, but here's Aveline..

Aveline:
Fists
Hidden Blades
Machete
Sword
Pistol
Blowpipe: Poison Darts
Blowpipe: Berserk Darts
Whip (basically a rope dart but usable in parkour)
Smoke Bombs

GreySkellig
10-20-2013, 08:55 PM
Whip (basically a rope dart but usable in parkour)

This right here is a solid 30% of the reason I'm interested in Liberation HD.

Jexx21
10-20-2013, 08:58 PM
If a Connor sequel happens I'd be interested in seeing something like rope arrows. Might be a bit too fantastical though.

AssassinHMS
10-20-2013, 08:58 PM
That's not what Assassin's Creed is about, that's what you want it to be about (even though it was never about that).

Not even Assassin's Creed (2007) was about that as it's easy to take out hordes of enemies.


Where exactly did I say what Assassin's Creed is about in that post??




Challenge Is Everything

Megas_Doux
10-20-2013, 08:58 PM
People will complain, no matter what........

Now, let´s see:

Altair : One Hidden Blade, one long blade, one short blade and throwing knives.
Ezio at its "maximum": Two hidden blades one that worked as a cimbling gadget too- crossbow, 3 types of bombs and being able to carry many of those as long as you had the ingredients, Hidden gun with almost no time of recharge, throwing knives, heavy weapon, long blade , short blade and even a freaking parachutte.

Connor: Two hidden blades, two pistols- up to four shots-, bow, poison darts, rope darts, trip mines, smoke bombs, long blades, short blades, heavy/blunt weapons.

Edward, as of now: Two long swords, two hidden blades, four pistols, the blowpipe, and supposedly the rope dart.

I prefer fewer weapons....

Jexx21
10-20-2013, 09:01 PM
Where exactly did I say what Assassin's Creed is about in that post??




Challenge Is Everything


That is actually a positive thing. Don't forget this is assassin's creed not warrior's creed. All an assassin needs is skill and a hidden blade, he doesn't even need to be a good fighter.

Assassin's Creed thrill comes from sneaking using crowds and shadows, knowing that, if you mess up and get detected you'll have to think and act very quickly in order to escape your pursuers or else you'll die.
Being able to kill many enemies (more than 2 at once) without breaking a sweat makes the player feel like he has control over the situation, hence the need to experiment different weapons. However, that kills all the rush and all the fun in being forced to run for your life.

If AC's combat wasn't so easy there would never have arisen the need for more weapons. Combat needs to be hard because that is where all the fun is.

all of the bolded.

Challenge means nothing if you don't have fun.

Megas_Doux
10-20-2013, 09:09 PM
And I forgot the "Hulk buster" like armour.....THAKS A LOT! to the ones who discovered those removing glitches in ACB and ACR.

Jexx21
10-20-2013, 09:09 PM
rofl....

Altair:
Fists
Hidden Blade
Sword
Dagger
Throwing Knives

Ezio:
Fists
Hidden Blade(s)
Hidden Gun
Poison Blade
Sword
Dagger
Throwing Knives
Poison Darts
Crossbow
Lethal Bombs
Tactical Bombs (includes smoke bombs)
Diversionary Bombs

Connor:
Fists
Hidden Blade
Tomahawk
Pistols
Bow
Rope Darts
Smoke Bombs
Sword
Poison Darts
Tripwire Bombs

Aveline:
Fists
Hidden Blades
Machete
Sword
Pistol
Blowpipe: Poison Darts
Blowpipe: Berserk Darts
Whip (basically a rope dart but usable in parkour)
Smoke Bombs

Edward (confirmed weapons):
Fists
Hidden Blades
Dual Cutlasses
Pistols
Blowpipe: Sleep Darts
Blowpipe: Berserk Darts
Rope Darts
Smoke Bombs

So Edward is only really lacking two items from Connor's (in-game) arsenal: Short weapon and Tripwire bombs.

Recap:

Altair: 5 kinds of weapons
Ezio: 12 kinds of weapons
Connor: 10 kinds of weapons
Aveline: 9 kinds of weapons
Edward: 8 kinds of weapons

After AC1 there was relatively no real difference between small weapons and normal weapons (daggers and swords), and I never used a sword as Connor. As Ezio, the crossbow pretty much made the hidden gun and throwing knives obsolete, and the only ranged weapon I used.

The amount we have is fine.

AssassinHMS
10-20-2013, 09:12 PM
all of the bolded.

Challenge means nothing if you don't have fun.

I think that you need to read it again. There is nothing there that says that it is the way AC should be, is there?

Challenge is fun. Combat that doesn't force you to think and that doesn't make you fear for your life is boring and has no thrill to it. No wonder people feel the need to use many weapons to try to spice it up.

Jexx21
10-20-2013, 09:14 PM
Too much challenge isn't fun.

AssassinHMS
10-20-2013, 09:27 PM
Too much challenge isn't fun.

Now that is common sense. Can you find anything in this world that, in excess, is good?

Don't you agree? I mean, the thrill of running for your life, of doing something that puts your life at risk, the tension that comes from trying to be stealthy and facing the odds...aren't those things much better than having a combat system that can be mastered?
If we were the masters of our own lives do you think they would be fun, do you think they would be thrilling? The same goes for AC.

Rugterwyper32
10-20-2013, 09:40 PM
AC1 combat difficulty was pretty much perfect, and if the previews for AC4 are anything to go by, combat has gotten a bump in difficulty making it possible but not the ideal option, the same way I saw it in AC1. Escaping and staying hidden was preferable back then, yes, but if someone wanted to take the "leave no witnesses" approach and kill everyone on sight, it was possible, it just took time and skill to manage that. And obviously an assassin is not suicidal so he needs to know at least the basics of combat. Assassins are not meant to be ghosts, they ARE sending a message to the Templars with each assassination. And the locations they kill them at (which you notice even in AC1) are usually public spaces where there's a lot of soldiers around. Sure, escaping is the best idea, but you do need to know how to fight and I would think there's a certain amount of training required to be able to do all that parkour and escape the way they do, so we're talking about an acrobatic and strong person.

Edit: Forgot to add my take on equipment. Thank goodness they're starting to make less equipment but more meaningful, by ACR the amount of stuff you had was so bloated it was unbelievable. It really was ridiculous to see Ezio basically being a tank.

Sturnz0r
10-20-2013, 09:51 PM
If a Connor sequel happens I'd be interested in seeing something like rope arrows. Might be a bit too fantastical though. Attach a rope to his arrow and you can now rappel up/down slippery surfaces! in ac3, his bow could have been better implemented for stealth, like shooting while staying in cover, or just poking out a little bit around corners

shobhit7777777
10-20-2013, 10:16 PM
I personally don't mind cutting down on weapons....however I do feel that the 'gadgetry' should be expanded upon. So far Eddie seems really well equipped for all sorts of approaches.

I feel that ACR did gadgetry the best (picking up from ACB)

The objective of gadgets shouldn't be outright lethal but should aim to open up tactical possibilities.
To this end the bomb crafting was a very robust (I will admit though that it had some very redundant and useless combos as well) way of providing the player a way to manipulate the game world around him
Having played the **** out of the game...I think the layers to bomb crafting and the effect does not get the appreciation it rightfully deserves.

Same for items like the poison darts and the poison blade...the blade being one of favourite weapons ever for the super stealthy kill it provided...and that it was the MOST plausible and effective Assassin weapon


I am all for streamlining and cutting out the "flab" - meaningless weapon upgrades, weapon types with no significant difference, redundant gadgets and tools.
However, I feel that the player should be given options like diversionary bombs, traps, lethal explosives, multi-purpose arrows etc. to maximize the way the player can apply his/herself and is free to experiment, plan and execute.

Also, before anyone says that Assassin's are stealthy killers and bombs are not their MO. Lets not forget that the order's approach was stealthy....but the assassination was done for maximum effect.....the Assassin's were the earliest terrorists. Fedayeen.
A bomb taking out a target...makes one helluva statement. The Assassin disappears into the crowd...back from where he came...but the act itself is overt, shocking and terrible. A political statement.


tl;dr

ACR Ezio is the best.

AssassinHMS
10-20-2013, 10:22 PM
AC1 combat difficulty was pretty much perfect, and if the previews for AC4 are anything to go by, combat has gotten a bump in difficulty making it possible but not the ideal option, the same way I saw it in AC1. Escaping and staying hidden was preferable back then, yes, but if someone wanted to take the "leave no witnesses" approach and kill everyone on sight, it was possible, it just took time and skill to manage that. And obviously an assassin is not suicidal so he needs to know at least the basics of combat. Assassins are not meant to be ghosts, they ARE sending a message to the Templars with each assassination. And the locations they kill them at (which you notice even in AC1) are usually public spaces where there's a lot of soldiers around. Sure, escaping is the best idea, but you do need to know how to fight and I would think there's a certain amount of training required to be able to do all that parkour and escape the way they do, so we're talking about an acrobatic and strong person.

Edit: Forgot to add my take on equipment. Thank goodness they're starting to make less equipment but more meaningful, by ACR the amount of stuff you had was so bloated it was unbelievable. It really was ridiculous to see Ezio basically being a tank.

I agree. An assassin must know how to fight. And yes it may make life easier for an assassin if he is a good fighter.................but a good fighter is capable of taking (at best) 3 enemies at once, not dozens, not hundreds.

I think AC's combat needs to be more realistic: Yes an assassin knows how to fight so, if you're forced to fight against two guards at once, odds are you'll win but, if there's more than three of them, then you'd better run for your life. Now that would be acceptable.
Of course if you have guns it becomes easier to kill (lets say) 5 enemies as it "should" be much easier to get killed but that is one of the reasons AC needs to go back in time, away from guns.

AC needs to be thrilling and learn that many weapons or many gruesome animations won't make it any better. The only way AC can become exciting and thrilling is by making people fear to fail, fear to be forced to fight so that escaping becomes dramatic and stealth breathtaking. Trust me, it is the only way.

Jexx21
10-20-2013, 10:24 PM
for you

shobhit7777777
10-20-2013, 10:32 PM
AC needs to be thrilling and learn that many weapons or many gruesome animations won't make it any better. The only way AC can become exciting and thrilling is by making people fear to fail, fear to be forced to fight so that escaping becomes dramatic and stealth breathtaking. Trust me, it is the only way.

Or

it:

1. Removes one engaging pillar as a viable option - Combat....which to date has been pretty accesible
2. Makes the main character the and the overall gameplay disempowering
3. Enforces stealth and evasion....often leading to frustration

It feels more badass when, inspite of being fully capable of hot-butter-knifing through 12 guards, you chose the discrete option of evading.

Stealth and Evasion is inherently breathtaking and engaging when it represents the "higher path" of brain over brawn....the path of Cunning. Its another type of BAMF fantasy....which does not rest on kneecapping combat prowess of the main character

AssassinHMS
10-20-2013, 10:33 PM
for you

My reasoning is objective and solid. What do you disagree with?

Sushiglutton
10-20-2013, 10:33 PM
I think Edward's aresnal is fine. The one thing I miss though is some way to set traps as I enjoy that in stealth games. But overall it's a good balance of not being overloaded and at the same time give you options.

Jexx21
10-20-2013, 10:36 PM
My reasoning is objective and solid. What do you disagree with?

Shobhit nailed my issues with what you say on the head.

Anyway, AC4 seems to be much more challenging than previous games, according to people who have played it (and yes, even harder than AC1).

Megas_Doux
10-20-2013, 10:42 PM
ACR Ezio is the best.

Although that one is my favorite Ezio, his arsenal is WAY over top! Which is the point of many people here, including me. And I am not even mentioning the Hulk buster like armour haha.

pacmanate
10-20-2013, 10:46 PM
I disagree with whoever said Ezio had more useless gadgets than Connor.

I am playing Brotherhood again and I am literally using everything, minus smoke bombs.

In AC3 I didnt use the warclubs as they were too slow, knives cause they use tomohawk animations, poison darts, smoke bombs, trip mines, the bow, rope darts lost their novelty also. The only thing I used were the hidden blades and the sword most of the time.

Sushiglutton
10-20-2013, 10:47 PM
My issue with combat isn't that it's too easy to survive, it's that it's way to easy to perfect. Once you have understood the basics, you have understood everything. The system is just too flat. I love when their is a learning curve and then suddenly it clicks and you move to that zen-like state.

AssassinHMS
10-20-2013, 10:50 PM
Or

it:

1. Removes one engaging pillar as a viable option - Combat....which to date has been pretty accesible
2. Makes the main character the and the overall gameplay disempowering
3. Enforces stealth and evasion....often leading to frustration

It feels more badass when, inspite of being fully capable of hot-butter-knifing through 12 guards, you chose the discrete option of evading.

Stealth and Evasion is inherently breathtaking and engaging when it represents the "higher path" of brain over brawn....the path of Cunning. Its another type of BAMF fantasy....which does not rest on kneecapping combat prowess of the main character

1 - It doesn't remove any pillar. Combat is viable, but not against more than 3 enemies at once (it is still possible but a lot harder).
2 - You mean you don't feel like a super hero anymore. Is that why you play Assassin's Creed? To feel like Hulk in historical periods or, as part of history, fully immersed into the experience? You still feel strong but, more importatly, you feel real instead of an overpowered bloodlust killer.
3 - It forces the player to think. Stealth isn't broken or anything and, if the player happens to fail, all he has to do is escape from enemies (if they are too many) or eliminate them quikly and return to being undetected. No frustration, no anything other than thrill.

Really?? Badass? You feel like an overpowered killing machine that doesn't feel like killing this time around. That is not what I want from AC.


Like I explained before, if the fear of being discovered isn't there, neither is the thrill in stealth or in escaping. Not just that, but stealth and evasion become mostly pointless.

It's not like I'm asking for a weak assassin. What I want is a bit of realism and thrill. Too bad you can't see how awesome that would be, then again all we know from AC is the complete opposite.

pacmanate
10-20-2013, 10:55 PM
My issue with combat isn't that it's too easy to survive, it's that it's way to easy to perfect. Once you have understood the basics, you have understood everything. The system is just too flat. I love when their is a learning curve and then suddenly it clicks and you move to that zen-like state.

I think its challenging to make combat challenging. They need a complete overhaul, the AC3 system is either break defense and attack, attack, or counter with a tool for everyone. Its not hard at all.

They need a batman type thing to quickfire gadgets whilst in fights but at the same time make enemies take more hits or be aggressive to balance the quickfire thing out.

Sushiglutton
10-20-2013, 10:58 PM
I think its challenging to make combat challenging. They need a complete overhaul, the AC3 system is either break defense and attack, attack, or counter with a tool for everyone. Its not hard at all.

They need a batman type thing to quickfire gadgets whilst in fights but at the same time make enemies take more hits or be aggressive to balance the quickfire thing out.

Yeah I think they should introduce some type of damage system for the enemies and less one hit kills. Could be a next gen project to have "realistic" damage like bone breaking, slicing a hand to make it useless and so on.

Jexx21
10-20-2013, 11:00 PM
I disagree with whoever said Ezio had more useless gadgets than Connor.

I am playing Brotherhood again and I am literally using everything, minus smoke bombs.

In AC3 I didnt use the warclubs as they were too slow, knives cause they use tomohawk animations, poison darts, smoke bombs, trip mines, the bow, rope darts lost their novelty also. The only thing I used were the hidden blades and the sword most of the time.

warclubs = sword
knives = tomahawk

they don't count as separate weapons.

pacmanate
10-20-2013, 11:01 PM
warclubs = sword
knives = tomahawk

they don't count as separate weapons.

How do warclubs = swords and knives=tomahawks...

Jexx21
10-20-2013, 11:01 PM
Like I explained before, if the fear of being discovered isn't there, neither is the thrill in stealth or in escaping. Not just that, but stealth and evasion become mostly pointless.

It's not like I'm asking for a weak assassin. What I want is a bit of realism and thrill. Too bad you can't see how awesome that would be, then again all we know from AC is the complete opposite.

this doesn't apply to everyone though.

Jexx21
10-20-2013, 11:02 PM
How do warclubs = swords?
they function the same, take up the same weapon slot.

warclubs/heavy weapons = swords

it's why I didn't count them in Ezio's or Connor's weapon lists.

EllJim
10-20-2013, 11:02 PM
Let us not forget people, if they actually did carry around these weapons and armour, they would drown in a heart beat... I thought that was the reason why Altair couldn't swim, armour plus weaps = sink.

Not forgetting Ezio's small arsenal as totalled earlier in the thread and he could swim....

Against many men died from their boots and rifles alone in the d-day landings. Or any number of river crossings....

Sushiglutton
10-20-2013, 11:03 PM
snares could be used as a weapon.

Jexx21
10-20-2013, 11:03 PM
gun powder also doesn't work when it's wet.

AssassinHMS
10-20-2013, 11:11 PM
this doesn't apply to everyone though.

I trully think it would apply to most people. But I am forced to agree as there would probably still be those who don't want any thrills or excitment and simply want to have some mindless fun after a days work. Then again AC should be about improving itself (augmenting the excitment and the thrill) and not about pleasing everyone.

However there is a way around this. Difficulty levels:
Novice for those who just want to pass some time and don't really feel like doing much effort;
Master for those who want to have a thrilling and breathtaking adventure, who don't want to feel like Hulk but instead fully immersed in the experience and part of the game's reality.

Jexx21
10-20-2013, 11:15 PM
Actually, the way the market is, with stealth games actually having combat that is easier than stealth for the most part (say Deus Ex: Human Revolution, Dishonored, etc.) I would have to say that most people would agree with what Shobhit said.

At the same time, those games also offer upgrade lines that allow you to focus on either combat or stealth.

Shahkulu101
10-20-2013, 11:16 PM
I trully think it would apply to most people. But I am forced to agree as there would probably still be those who don't want any thrills or excitment and simply want to have some mindless fun after a days work. Then again AC should be about improving itself (augmenting the excitment and the thrill) and not about pleasing everyone.

However there is a way around this. Difficulty levels:
Novice for those who just want to pass some time and don't really feel like doing much effort;
Master for those who want to have a thrilling and breathtaking adventure, who don't want to feel like Hulk but instead fully immersed in the experience and part of the game's reality.

I like how you have not included any middle-ground.

Farlander1991
10-20-2013, 11:24 PM
One of the things to remember is that Assassin's Creed is NOT Thief. It is NOT a stealth-game. It is also NOT a social-stealth game. At its premise, ever since AC1 (that being the final AC1 version that we all got, not the one that we saw in a demo in 2006) is about choosing your approach. Which means: go stealth if you want. Or go full on combat mode if you want. And both choices should be viable for the general player. And, being an open-world game, it's very tricky to balance everything properly, I don't think even AC1 got it right.

And, while in theory adding difficulty levels does fix that, difficulty levels are much more than just 'oh just change the variables on the stats of enemies and that's it', EVEN if that's the 'essence' of what the difficulty level change is about. It's really hard to make proper difficulty levels matter in an open-world game.

I would say that neither stealth nor combat is especially challenging in AC, and while I would want it to become somewhat more challenging, what the devs should really be focusing on is how to make different choices matter more. It's been present in different ways in current games already, like the higher the notoriety (which is all thanks to a non-stealth approach usually) the more enemies (and of harder archetypes) there are, or in case of ACIV, if you complete contracts without entering open combat you get more money. Also there's a traditional "if the target sees you then you have to chase it" consequence. But they still haven't worked on it on the level they should.

AssassinHMS
10-20-2013, 11:33 PM
Actually, the way the market is, with stealth games actually having combat that is easier than stealth for the most part (say Deus Ex: Human Revolution, Dishonored, etc.) I would have to say that most people would agree with what Shobhit said.

At the same time, those games also offer upgrade lines that allow you to focus on either combat or stealth.

I know, I know...but assassin's creed musn't follow the trend if it wants to distinguish itself, more so in this case where it could improve a lot and even start a revolution in gaming.

Seriously, this is what AC needs. AC seems real visually but it doesn't feel real when you're like Hulk. In real life I'd probably lose my pants (not likely though) if I was being pursued by 5 or 6 guards or if I was somewhere that I knew I shouldn't be and that could be killed if discovered. In AC, I feel nothing in these situations because I know I can just turn around and kill everyone, because I feel above the situation and not in it, because I have too much control. If the game doesn't make me feel scared when I should be, if it makes me feel overpowered when it shouldn't, how can it make me feel thrilled or excited?


Challenge Is Everything

shobhit7777777
10-20-2013, 11:36 PM
*cracks knuckles*


1 - It doesn't remove any pillar. Combat is viable, but not against more than 3 enemies at once (it is still possible but a lot harder). .

Yes. Yes, it does. Chances of engaging in combat against 3 or less guards in an AC game are very low. The situations where the player will be faced with 4,5 even 6 guards is one which will occur more often. Make fighting against more than 3 a pain in the *** and you ARE enforcing the evasion-stealth loop. People don't usually like being force-fed stealth...especially AC players who have had an accessible and empowering combat system since game #2...heck AC1 had a very easy combat system (slow paced yet easy)

The above directly impedes an average player's enjoyment of combat...a core pillar of the franchise. This does not make it a preferred option and hence erodes it's viability.


2 - You mean you don't feel like a super hero anymore. Is that why you play Assassin's Creed? To feel like Hulk in historical periods or, as part of history, fully immersed into the experience? You still feel strong but, more importatly, you feel real instead of an overpowered bloodlust killer.

1. Please don't assume to know my playstyle, preferences or expectations unless I explicitly state so...identifiable in the future with the use of "Personally",

2. Reductio ad absurdium: Idea is to have well balanced powers...not go to either extreme. Your "3 enemy" limit is too far on the 'disempowerment' scale which reduces an established powerful character with great combat prowess to a dude who has to run away everytime he gets in a fight....IS disempowering to the player.
Combat in AC has been designed to be empowering, flashy and put cool over realism...thats the way it is...and thats its objective.

We can distil the "Badass" quotient in the franchise to two distinct power fantasies - The lethal aggressor (Combat) and the Cunning Ninja (Stealth). Each focusing on a different aspect of what the public percieves to be badass. One a powerful combatant and the other a silent predator....both archetypes are supported by their respective gameplay mechanics. Cutting one out definitely reduces the "Badass" quotient.

It puts the "Flight" option before "Fight" and ergo is the "weaker" of the two from a pure empowerment perspective.

The perception itself that this gameplay loop would cast would easily ruin any fantasy of playing a highly trained killer.

I personally play Assassin's Creed to live out the fantasy of playing the role of a "Blade in the crowd". Due to personal choices made in the game, the ability to slaughter 20 guards in one go doesn't bother me in the slightest because:

1. As it stands...it makes for a robust game...where getting detected or caught doesn't mean game over or an repetitive and ultimately boring loop of hide-fight-run-hide'
2. The combat serves as a flashy power trip and an engaging alternative to blown stealth...its not too tough....but to make it look smooth and "Assassiny" it takes a bit of skill. Perfect combo.

And the most important thing:

Choice

Player choice is meaningless when the one of the alternatives is distinctly inferior. It immediately cuts down on the tactical possibilities not to mention the ability to improvise.

Why would I even think of trying a more aggressive approach when the game punishes me for it? Where is the choice in that? The game already has nudged me towards stealth.

Action and Consequences. Not AN Action and Punishment.

Of course, I understand that you don't want a system that outright kills you if there are more than 3 guards...you want that to be harder. However, you're basically handicapping one pillar to re-enforce the other (Stealth)...which I feel is the wrong way to approach this.

I feel both options should be equally accessible and viable...and it should ultimately come down to player choice...true player choice...born not out of just an "Expediency Compulsion" but out of personal preference and tastes....much like how you and I would choose the sneakier path to assassinate a guy...instead of just climbing on top of a pillar and cross-bowing that MF.


3 - It forces the player to think. Stealth isn't broken or anything and, if the player happens to fail, all he has to do is escape from enemies (if they are too many) or eliminate them quikly and return to being undetected. No frustration, no anything other than thrill.


Is what you think

No....it forces a player to stick to a gameplay loop he/she MIGHT not want to play in. Besides, the option of fleeing is already present anyway!

Putting a higher skill gap would definitely alienate a lot of the NON-hardcore folks who are not part of this forum...or any vocal minority...who in all likelihood find the current system fine...and in some instances too tough. I don't have the data...but the fact that the combat has not been changed for the last 4 games (essentially the same) should be a signal. BF seems to buck the trend.

If you want Stealth to be encouraged...lets do it by making it seem like the cooler option. More robust systems that support a fluid, accessible yet engaging stealth experience....instead of bayonetting 'Combat's' kneecaps.

ADDENDUM


Like I explained before, if the fear of being discovered isn't there, neither is the thrill in stealth or in escaping. Not just that, but stealth and evasion become mostly pointless.
I wanted to address this bit

The way I see it...there are two types of "thrills" or challenges (Which create the thrill I suppose) in certain games

Intrinsic and Extrinsic

Intrinsic being a challenge or thrill obtained by a player without any developer machinations to induce said thrill/challenge...apart from the obvious in-game effect.

Example: In Splinter Cell Conviction - a game lambasted by many for being too easy with the mark and execute mechanic - a player can easily kill several AI guards within seconds without much thinking or effort.
However, the same can be done in a more elaborate, planned and elegant manner...which although has the identical net result is often a more creatively demanding endeavour - using gadgets, timing and observation for a very cool and silent takedown of 4-6 bad guys.

This "takedown" is not acknowledged or rewarded by the game and is on par with a drab, boring execute....however (personally speaking) I draw a thrill out of carrying out such attacks. This is an intrinsic element
It is motivated by very personal reasons and not because the game rewards me for it.Extrinsic, as you can imagine implies thrill/challenge sought after beating/meeting certain in-game parameters designed specifically to encourage a specific behaviour. Achievements, challenges, syncs etc. are examples of this.


I feel that the two can co-exist but IMO the former should be given presidence over the latter as it is a truer..purer form of challenge/satisfaction.

Ultimately...it should be YOU who should be consciously running away..not because the game punishes you...because of the intrinsic reason of realism and "What would an Assassin do?" ;)

Jexx21
10-20-2013, 11:43 PM
I know, I know...but assassin's creed musn't follow the trend if it wants to distinguish itself, more so in this case where it could improve a lot and even start a revolution in gaming.

Seriously, this is what AC needs. AC seems real visually but it doesn't feel real when you're like Hulk. In real life I'd probably lose my pants (not likely though) if I was being pursued by 5 or 6 guards or if I was somewhere that I knew I shouldn't be and that could be killed if discovered. In AC, I feel nothing in these situations because I know I can just turn around and kill everyone, because I feel above the situation and not in it, because I have too much control. If the game doesn't make me feel scared when I should be, if it makes me feel overpowered when it shouldn't, how can it make me feel thrilled or excited?


Challenge Is Everything

okay, but I disagree.

:)

Farlander1991
10-20-2013, 11:44 PM
In AC, I feel nothing in these situations because I know I can just turn around and kill everyone, because I feel above the situation and not in it, because I have too much control. If the game doesn't make me feel scared when I should be, if it makes me feel overpowered when it shouldn't, how can it make me feel thrilled or excited?

Well... uhm... precisely? I mean, Assassins ARE above the situation. Assassins ARE in control. That's the fantasy that AC provides. If there's 10 guards they'll find a way of dealing with them. If they don't want to kill the guards they'll find a way to avoid them. That you are standing in the crowd infront of a target that thinks that being surrounded by 20 guards will keep him/her safe. And if the target sees you and starts running away, you know it won't be able to hide or outrun you, because that's who you are - an Assassin that gets the job done. Heck, the 'Blade in the crowd' phrase from AC1 that you yourself like to use so much is pretty much about how unafraid and in control those guys are. Those people jump from huge tall points for breakfast, they SHOULDN'T feel afraid or scared. Because, as I already said, AC as a series is about choice.

dxsxhxcx
10-20-2013, 11:56 PM
Well... uhm... precisely? I mean, Assassins ARE above the situation. Assassins ARE in control. That's the fantasy that AC provides. If there's 10 guards they'll find a way of dealing with them. If they don't want to kill the guards they'll find a way to avoid them. That you are standing in the crowd infront of a target that thinks that being surrounded by 20 guards will keep him/her safe. And if the target sees you and starts running away, you know it won't be able to hide or outrun you, because that's who you are - an Assassin that gets the job done. Those people jump from huge tall points for breakfast, they SHOULDN'T feel afraid or scared. Because, as I already said, AC as a series is about choice.

Assassins ARE also humans and even skilled as they might be, kill an "army" of 10~15 enemies in a matter of seconds like if they were nothing (all the time) make things a little unrealistic and immersion breaking (at least for me)... I like to think that even if an Assassin in the end has the capacity to deal with any situation, at least some of them won't be a ride in the park like it's been happening since AC2 (we could put AC1 on the same list but IMO of all games AC1 was the one that was able to get closer to a middle ground regarding combat difficulty)


also this might be the fantasy it provides to you, but don't assume everyone thinks the same way...

Farlander1991
10-21-2013, 12:10 AM
also this might be the fantasy it provides to you, but don't assume everyone thinks the same way...

For ****'s sake. I'm sorry, but it's starting to really annoy me when people say stuff like this, especially on this forum dedicated to a series that promotes the idea that there is NO one true answer to anything. Do we really need to put 'my view', 'my opinion', 'my interpretation', 'you don't have to agree with me or think the way I do' before every sentence? >_<

I know I sound rude and I apologize for that, but, there really is no need to point that thing out.

AssassinHMS
10-21-2013, 12:17 AM
One of the things to remember is that Assassin's Creed is NOT Thief. It is NOT a stealth-game. It is also NOT a social-stealth game. At its premise, ever since AC1 (that being the final AC1 version that we all got, not the one that we saw in a demo in 2006) is about choosing your approach. Which means: go stealth if you want. Or go full on combat mode if you want. And both choices should be viable for the general player. And, being an open-world game, it's very tricky to balance everything properly, I don't think even AC1 got it right.
Assassin’s Creed encourages stealth. Yes the three pillars are stealth, combat and navigation but stealth is the one that is really behind AC’s ideas.
Interesting how you mention 2006 demo. This is all proof that, the more you look into AC’s original ideas, the more you see that it is about placing stealth above combat.
AC1’s first missions shows Altair failing to complete his mission due to lack of stealth, choosing combat over stealth and killing people who didn’t need to die. And what is Ubisoft’s concept of assassin? Men trained to remain hidden and assassinate only the target avoiding unnecessary blood spill and combat altogether.
This should tell you something. Assassin’s Creed original premise is to place stealth much higher than combat as they see combat as a last resource, as a remedy to failure (getting detected and not being able to escape).
This is Assassin’s Creed so all that talk that AC isn’t a stealth game is wrong.


And, while in theory adding difficulty levels does fix that, difficulty levels are much more than just 'oh just change the variables on the stats of enemies and that's it', EVEN if that's the 'essence' of what the difficulty level change is about. It's really hard to make proper difficulty levels matter in an open-world game.
That’s up to them. Maybe they should focus on these difficult levels as much as they focus on naval. Still, I don’t see any real problem here.












Yes. Yes, it does. Chances of engaging in combat against 3 or less guards in an AC game are very low.The situations where the player will be faced with 4,5 even 6 guards is one which will occur more often.
That depends on the mission’s structure.


Make fighting against more than 3 a pain in the *** and you ARE enforcing the evasion-stealth loop. People don't usually like being force-fed stealth...especially AC players who have had an accessible and empowering combat system since game #2...heck AC1 had a very easy combat system (slow paced yet easy)
So you are so used to kid levels that you don’t want to play the real thing. Wow I never thought gaming would become like this. I still remember when games were challenging and people knew that overcoming that challenge was so much more rewarding than cheap gruesome animations.


The above directly impedes an average player's enjoyment of combat...a core pillar of the franchise. This does not make it a preferred option and hence erodes it's viability.
Assassin’s Creed is about encouraging stealth. By your line of thought combat was never viable.




2. Reductio ad absurdium: Idea is to have well balanced powers...not go to either extreme. Your "3 enemy" limit is too far on the 'disempowerment' scale which reduces an established powerful character with great combat prowess to a dude who has to run away everytime he gets in a fight....IS disempowering to the player.
If you use your brain you won’t have to run away because you won’t get into fights where you’re over numbered. You don’t feel weak as you can win against 3 enemies at once (how’s that weak?) but you don’t feel like Hulk either.



Look if you want to feel above the situation where every option is viable and where “coolness” is more important than realism or immersion then fine.
I for one want a real experience where I actually feel something when playing the game. I guess we want different things from AC.

shobhit7777777
10-21-2013, 12:35 AM
Its like talking to a brick wall

AssassinHMS
10-21-2013, 12:40 AM
Well... uhm... precisely? I mean, Assassins ARE above the situation. Assassins ARE in control. That's the fantasy that AC provides. If there's 10 guards they'll find a way of dealing with them. If they don't want to kill the guards they'll find a way to avoid them. That you are standing in the crowd infront of a target that thinks that being surrounded by 20 guards will keep him/her safe. And if the target sees you and starts running away, you know it won't be able to hide or outrun you, because that's who you are - an Assassin that gets the job done. Heck, the 'Blade in the crowd' phrase from AC1 that you yourself like to use so much is pretty much about how unafraid and in control those guys are. Those people jump from huge tall points for breakfast, they SHOULDN'T feel afraid or scared. Because, as I already said, AC as a series is about choice.

Assassins are only in control when they are undetected. Why do you think they spend years training how to avoid combat? They only fight if they are forced to, if they lose control over the situation. But this has nothing to do with what I said.

When I say the player feels completely in control when playing AC it means that, no matter what, the player will be victorious. That ruins all the fun. If you know you are going to win, if there is no challenge, then there is no real joy in doing it (or point).
What I want is to feel in the situation, to feel like I can lose, I can die if I don't do it right. I want to be afraid of failing and feeling the edge when escaping a bunch of pursuers. I want to feel the tension when I'm hidden and walking unnoticed, always aware that everything may change the next moment in a way that I may not be able to adapt fast enough.
This is what I mean when I say that I want to feel real and part of the world instead of a human in a world of ants. Get it?

I also understand no one else feels this way and is satisfied with an easy combat system and pointless stealth so I'll drop this...

plentybeef
10-21-2013, 01:03 AM
I believe most if not all weapons are not being used to there full extent. I used the poison dart on animals and people alike. Even the trip mines, I used them like an ambush. Or a little surprise for a wodering bear, It's really funny.

As for the amount of weapons, I believe the expressed opinions don't match the intent. Of course the idea is to kill but the aim of each use is different. Then comes the tricky part as some favor other weapons. Then the whole view as to usefulness goes out the window. But why complain about the amount of weapons, when their are a diffinitive amount of players who doesn't even use all the weapons from ac3. I'm a little sadden as I loved every tool in the assassins arsenal and the most intriguing ones won't be in BF like the bombs and the poison and the parachute.

Wouldn't it be nice to rip the chute and fly behind your ship with adewale at the wheel

Sushiglutton
10-21-2013, 01:11 AM
Assassins are only in control when they are undetected. Why do you think they spend years training how to avoid combat? They only fight if they are forced to, if they lose control over the situation. But this has nothing to do with what I said.

When I say the player feels completely in control when playing AC it means that, no matter what, the player will be victorious. That ruins all the fun. If you know you are going to win, if there is no challenge, then there is no real joy in doing it (or point).
What I want is to feel in the situation, to feel like I can lose, I can die if I don't do it right. I want to be afraid of failing and feeling the edge when escaping a bunch of pursuers. I want to feel the tension when I'm hidden and walking unnoticed, always aware that everything may change the next moment in a way that I may not be able to adapt fast enough.
This is what I mean when I say that I want to feel real and part of the world instead of a human in a world of ants. Get it?

I also understand no one else feels this way and is satisfied with an easy combat system and pointless stealth so I'll drop this...

I totally respect your opinion even though I'm not that hardcore myself. I will say though that fear of losing has an overall emotional effect and change how I play games. When I can just restart at a checkpoints I tend to be more aggressive and do more trial and error as opposed to careful planning. What you are saying therefor makes perfect sense to me, it's just that I'm too comfortable to play like that most of the time :).

AssassinHMS
10-21-2013, 01:24 AM
Its like talking to a brick wall

I understand what you're saying, that by restricting combat's viability I'm going against AC's motto where the player always has more than one option.
The way I see it there can't be a perfect blend. I want AC to make me fear to fail, fear to be forced to fight so that escaping becomes dramatic and stealth breathtaking and this can only be achieved by restricting combat, by making it realistic.
So I guess adding difficulty levels would be the best option.




Also, why resort to insults? Aren't you better than that?

AssassinHMS
10-21-2013, 01:30 AM
I totally respect your opinion even though I'm not that hardcore myself. I will say though that fear of losing has an overall emotional effect and change how I play games. When I can just restart at a checkpoints I tend to be more aggressive and do more trial and error as opposed to careful planning. What you are saying therefor makes perfect sense to me, it's just that I'm too comfortable to play like that most of the time :).


Thank you for respecting my opinion :)
I understand your point as well and I think that Ubisoft should really add these difficulty levels.

Rugterwyper32
10-21-2013, 02:07 AM
I thought of Bethesda games when I came up with an idea of how this could work: A difficulty bar that sets damage input and things like that, and something like hardcore mode from New Vegas, but with elements like weight of the weapons and armor you carry matter and bringing back the insta-sinking when jumping on water if you have too much on you and whatnot. I think that would be interesting.

Stealth Gamer92
10-21-2013, 04:09 AM
I thought of Bethesda games when I came up with an idea of how this could work: A difficulty bar that sets damage input and things like that, and something like hardcore mode from New Vegas, but with elements like weight of the weapons and armor you carry matter and bringing back the insta-sinking when jumping on water if you have too much on you and whatnot. I think that would be interesting.

i like the dificulty idea, use easy when I want to play just for fun or be an AC class clown hardcore for when I am feeling like I need more of a challenge. As fo the ista-sink idea I see myself jumping in water only to start dumping gear not knowing if I am getting rid of anything I wanted to keep. Then haveing to gio back and retrieve my favorite weapons because I dumped them in my panic......I like it!

shobhit7777777
10-21-2013, 04:31 AM
Also, why resort to insults? Aren't you better than that?

Its not an insult. Thats how I felt because we had reached an impasse.

This is why:


I understand what you're saying, that by restricting combat's viability I'm going against AC's motto where the player always has more than one option.
The way I see it there can't be a perfect blend. I want AC to make me fear to fail, fear to be forced to fight so that escaping becomes dramatic and stealth breathtaking and this can only be achieved by restricting combat, by making it realistic.
So I guess adding difficulty levels would be the best option.

phoenix-force411
10-21-2013, 04:32 AM
To be honest, I never really used that many equipment from Connor's arsenal. It's fine if they die it down a bit.

TheBearJew32
10-21-2013, 05:50 AM
Edward has throwing knives as well.

Gi1t
10-21-2013, 05:59 AM
The way I see it there can't be a perfect blend. I want AC to make me fear to fail, fear to be forced to fight so that escaping becomes dramatic and stealth breathtaking and this can only be achieved by restricting combat, by making it realistic.
So I guess adding difficulty levels would be the best option.


Actually, I think there IS something in AC that might balance out stealth and combat. It's true that stealth does kind of insist on itself if you're trying to make it really work. In order to feel viable, it doesn't just need to 'work', it needs to feel preferable to combat in some way. In a sense, it makes you feel smarter than your enemies, so it needs to feel like the smarter option. If it feels like you're expending waaaay more energy trying to get around a fight than you would just sitting there mashing X, it starts to feel pretty stupid and it really kills that Assassin vibe. Now, it's not an issue of having to make combat impossibly hard, it's just a matter of the balance between them. In theory, if combat is too easy, stealth would need to be even easier. XD Later on it felt like they were trying to add in difficulty factors to the stealth elements and leaving combat as a backup option. But turning up the heat in combat can make people feel like it's not an option either, so what are they to do? Well, AC prominently features a third element: freerunning. What does Altair do in that first trailer? He kills in the open and then escapes and vanishes into the crowd. If you're not fond of sneaking OR combat, another option is to use you're escape tactics and freerunning skills to get around the guards and get to the target. This could be helpful on both ends, since it allows you to change how you engage guards when fighting them, and also allows stealth-heavy players to resume stealth gameplay if they make a mistake. I'd like to see them work on escape tactics like being able to knock guards down, break out of combat and move quickly around the mob to get away and either gain an advantage they can use to fight back or break the line of sight and vanish. The possibility of evasion acts as a sort of bridge between one type of gameplay and the other and really makes either option viable. As for difficulty settings, I still think it's worth a shot. It's absolutely true that they require a lot of effort to create a difficulty setting that isn't just a lame damage boost, but "It's a lot of work" is an excuse you can only use so many times. -__- Sooner or later, if you're not finding any magic solutions, you have to at least try it. (They're making these things one a year after all.) Also, I REALLY wish the return button would work here! It's irritating not being able to separate individual thoughts. XD

pirate1802
10-21-2013, 06:25 AM
I prefer it this way. Main characters were becoming far too bloated with useless weapons, I'm glad they've stripped it back to the essentials.


I second this. This is why I liked AC1. Hidden Blade for assassinations, short blade for large enemy groups, Normal sword for a few enemies and knives for ranged attacks.

Indeed, Its better to have a few well-developed weapons than 9000 weapons, 8996 of which you rarely use.

aTroubadour
10-21-2013, 06:25 AM
I understand what you're saying, that by restricting combat's viability I'm going against AC's motto where the player always has more than one option.
The way I see it there can't be a perfect blend. I want AC to make me fear to fail, fear to be forced to fight so that escaping becomes dramatic and stealth breathtaking and this can only be achieved by restricting combat, by making it realistic.
So I guess adding difficulty levels would be the best option

I'm with you, man. Right now, the only incentive to use stealth is convenience and cash bonus apparently. If combat was really dangerous, you would be very careful, and a well executed stealth mission would feel amazing. Or planning an escape route after an assassination mission like the original AC intended. I love AC but as it is but when I avoid combat, it's to save time, not because of danger. I think they're a little too obsessed with 'bad ***' characters over at Ubisoft :D

But yeah, a difficulty level would be amazing! Rather than just upping damage or increasing guards, it should really make combat about skill but still be overpowered by fighting more than opponents. Lower difficulty for stress-free action game, up it for a more stealthy, tactical and resource driven game :)

AssassinHMS
10-21-2013, 12:17 PM
Actually, I think there IS something in AC that might balance out stealth and combat. It's true that stealth does kind of insist on itself if you're trying to make it really work. In order to feel viable, it doesn't just need to 'work', it needs to feel preferable to combat in some way. In a sense, it makes you feel smarter than your enemies, so it needs to feel like the smarter option. If it feels like you're expending waaaay more energy trying to get around a fight than you would just sitting there mashing X, it starts to feel pretty stupid and it really kills that Assassin vibe. Now, it's not an issue of having to make combat impossibly hard, it's just a matter of the balance between them. In theory, if combat is too easy, stealth would need to be even easier. XD Later on it felt like they were trying to add in difficulty factors to the stealth elements and leaving combat as a backup option. But turning up the heat in combat can make people feel like it's not an option either, so what are they to do? Well, AC prominently features a third element: freerunning. What does Altair do in that first trailer? He kills in the open and then escapes and vanishes into the crowd. If you're not fond of sneaking OR combat, another option is to use you're escape tactics and freerunning skills to get around the guards and get to the target. This could be helpful on both ends, since it allows you to change how you engage guards when fighting them, and also allows stealth-heavy players to resume stealth gameplay if they make a mistake. I'd like to see them work on escape tactics like being able to knock guards down, break out of combat and move quickly around the mob to get away and either gain an advantage they can use to fight back or break the line of sight and vanish. The possibility of evasion acts as a sort of bridge between one type of gameplay and the other and really makes either option viable. As for difficulty settings, I still think it's worth a shot. It's absolutely true that they require a lot of effort to create a difficulty setting that isn't just a lame damage boost, but "It's a lot of work" is an excuse you can only use so many times. -__- Sooner or later, if you're not finding any magic solutions, you have to at least try it. (They're making these things one a year after all.) Also, I REALLY wish the return button would work here! It's irritating not being able to separate individual thoughts. XD

Hmm…I agree. Ahah it seems the more we think about it, the more we realize how underdeveloped all the core aspects are.
I think you’re right. I can see navigation as a third element that stands between combat and stealth. I can also see QTE when you run into a guard blocking your path that is about to strike. But navigation needs to play a much bigger role than it has so far because, until now, all it is used for is to climb trees and buildings and overall land traverse but it needs to evolve into something like AC1’s trailer. Give the player the ability to dodge guards, to push civilians turning them into obstacles knocking over any pursuer close enough and maybe even add some rolling, jumping or slide technique to avoid swords or other melee weapons during an escape.
Yes this may turn the simple act of escaping into a thrilling and acrobatic race while allowing to resume stealth but it doesn’t really add tension when sneaking or give you chills when attempting a stealth kill or force you to wait and plan before making your move (you know making the player think like an assassin).
This is why Assassin’s Creed needs difficulty levels. One to pass time and where every option is viable and another that pulls the player into that world, that makes the player think like an assassin and feel every second of the experience.
Seriously, this is how AC can achieve its true potential.




I'm with you, man. Right now, the only incentive to use stealth is convenience and cash bonus apparently. If combat was really dangerous, you would be very careful, and a well executed stealth mission would feel amazing. Or planning an escape route after an assassination mission like the original AC intended. I love AC but as it is but when I avoid combat, it's to save time, not because of danger. I think they're a little too obsessed with 'bad ***' characters over at Ubisoft :D


Yes! I’m glad you think the same way.
You’re right. Stealth is there to save time and, in AC4 for convenience and cash bonuses but this is not the reason why stealth exists.
I don’t get why people want badass characters so much. I mean, pretty much all movie and game protagonists are made to be unrealistic badass people and I think it’s time for a change.
One doesn’t need to have Hulk like powers in order to be badass. Being a badass is in a person’s personality and not in the unrealistic ability to defeat a thousand enemies.



But yeah, a difficulty level would be amazing! Rather than just upping damage or increasing guards, it should really make combat about skill but still be overpowered by fighting more than opponents. Lower difficulty for stress-free action game, up it for a more stealthy, tactical and resource driven game :)


Precisely! I’m starting to realize that his topic deserved a thread of its own but it has a lot to do with the absurd amount of weapons. If combat was realistic and as hard as it should be, players wouldn’t worry about mixing different weapons to avoid boredom because they would be thinking what their next move will be (should I take my chances and keep fighting or knock out the 2 closest enemies and run like hell?) and the challenge would prevent boredom.



I like how you have not included any middle-ground.
Yeah, I don’t want a middle term. Its either simple or complex.

Farlander1991
10-21-2013, 12:54 PM
Being a badass is in a person’s personality and not in the unrealistic ability to defeat a thousand enemies.

Again, things in AC like the combat system do need tweaking, but the series is about choice. This thread pretty clearly shows that different people have different opinions about what it means to be an Assassin (a thing that all AC games including AC1 with its NOT really challenging combat system and all the possibilities in assassination missions provided) and how an Assassin (or that particular Assassin) would act in a certain situation. (Which reminds me, for some reason people in this discussion including you seem to assume that my fantasy is to play as somebody who just goes heads on and beats the **** out everything, I suppose that was caused by my 'Assassins are always in control' post though I'm not entirely sure why, while in fact I always play, well, whenever possible because it depends on missions, a sneaky bastard who finds a way to get in unnoticed, do the deed and then run away).

What you're doing is essentially a very 'Templar' thing :p Trying to push the series into what you consider to be the right direction, and, hey, the surprise is that I don't disagree with that direction because that's how I play the game (ironic, isn't it?) :p The mechanics in AC games do need tweaking (in some cases, LOTS of it), but it has to be centered around the meaning of choice, advantages and disadvantages of every choice, and not just a particular way of playing.

This principle based on choice is, for example, why I loved the hook-blade in ACR so much. When it comes to corner lamps, you can either jump forward farther, or turn around the corner. That provided very cool possibilities both in closed level and open city design. Imagined that principle expanded to a lot more objects in the world than just lamps, what the devs could do with levels and cities in that case, it's so awesome... Meaningful choices. That's where the series can really shine (not to mention that this principle of choice as it's related to the design of the game in a neat way flows well with the Creed itself, Nothing is true and everything is permitted), but so far it doesn't.

EDIT: That said, I want to stress out the part 'meaningful' when it comes to choice. Ezio's trilogy in terms of weapons arsenal, for example, has such a wide array of choices that most of them aren't actually meaningful at all.

AssassinHMS
10-21-2013, 01:26 PM
Again, things in AC like the combat system do need tweaking, but the series is about choice.
I am offering choice. In fact I’m offering more choice than we were ever offered before. Choose your difficulty, choose how much you want the game to involve you in the experience. Do you want to push stealth and cunning to the limit in a world where you a forced to make choices, where only assassin skills can save your ***? Then choose Master difficulty.
Do you want to be able to choose anything no matter the situation, the realism or the immersion? Then choose Novice difficulty.
However these two realities can’t truly coexist and you can’t have thrill without fear or doubt, you can’t have excitement without challenge in the same way you can’t be completely free without losing passion or immersion. Therefore, a difficulty system is what the franchise needs to be able to evolve without obstacles or the need to lose a part of itself in order to please everyone.


This thread pretty clearly shows that different people have different opinions about what it means to be an Assassin (a thing that all AC games including AC1 with its NOT really challenging combat system and all the possibilities in assassination missions provided) and how an Assassin (or that particular Assassin) would act in a certain situation. (Which reminds me, for some reason people in this discussion including you seem to assume that my fantasy is to play as somebody who just goes heads on and beats the **** out everything, while in fact I always play, well, whenever possible because it depends on missions, a sneaky bastard who finds a way to get in unnoticed, do the deed and then run away).

Yes, there are many interpretations but there is the concept of assassin according to the person who created AC: in terms of execution, assassins are masters of shadows that use stealth and cunning to learn as much as they can about their mission and kill a specific target proceeding to escape, preferably without laying a hand on anyone.


This principle based on choice is, for example, why I loved the hook-blade in ACR so much. When it comes to corner lamps, you can either jump forward farther, or turn around the corner. That provided very cool possibilities both in closed level and open city design. Imagined that principle expanded to a lot more objects in the world than just lamps, what the devs could do with levels and cities in that case, it's so awesome... Meaningful choices. That's where the series can really shine (not to mention that this principle of choice as it's related to the design of the game in a neat way flows well with the Creed itself, Nothing is true and everything is permitted), but so far it doesn't.

I’m all for choice but, like I explained there are things that don’t blend together. For instance, you can never truly think like an assassin without being forced to (and the levels are made with that in mind). You can try to and mimic the assassin way but you’ll never push stealth to the limit, you will never feel the tension when striving to remain undetected or the excitement and sense of accomplishment when you successfully complete a challenging mission that pushed your assassin skills to the edge and made you feel and think every second of the way (with a few brakes to relieve the tension of course).
The only way that the players can have the choice to be fully immersed in AC like this or to play it simply to pass time, is by adding difficulty levels.



What you're doing is essentially a very 'Templar' thing :p
May The Father Of Understanding guide us……………………………….to difficulty levels

pacmanate
10-21-2013, 01:35 PM
So do we actually have a weapon list?

Mr_Shade
10-21-2013, 02:12 PM
So do we actually have a weapon list?
yeap

http://www.amateurgourmet.com/ist2_2890967_spoon.jpg
http://static.giantbomb.com/uploads/original/0/5370/1499438-mkdd_banana.jpg
http://csss.j-m-e.net/data/media/15/kitty_Knife.jpg

seems pretty complete to me?

pacmanate
10-21-2013, 02:17 PM
Uhhh.... guys....

Mr_Shade
10-21-2013, 02:38 PM
;)

ladyleonhart
10-21-2013, 02:42 PM
Uhhh.... guys....

Is that a 'real' cat...? :nonchalance:

Mr_Shade
10-21-2013, 02:43 PM
Is that a 'real' cat...? :nonchalance:
it is - it's many, many years old now though - from the good old days of Counterstrike ;)

pacmanate
10-21-2013, 02:49 PM
Is that a 'real' cat...? :nonchalance:

Just pray that a day one patch is coming!

Sn1p3r-28
10-21-2013, 02:58 PM
Simpler the better, too many and it just seems ridiculous.

I mostly only use the sword and hidden blade, that along with a ranged weapon (Pistols) is all you need.

Mr_Shade
10-21-2013, 03:02 PM
Simpler the better, too many and it just seems ridiculous.

I mostly only use the sword and hidden blade, that along with a ranged weapon (Pistols) is all you need.But what about the spoon.. the weapon of a true Assassin?


'It's said his skill with bladed weapons was so fully complete, that he could behead someone at 400 paces, with nothing but a small spoon'

[excerpt from diary of [ReDaCtEd]

EllJim
10-21-2013, 03:06 PM
But what about the spoon.. the weapon of a true Assassin?


'It's said his skill with bladed weapons was so fully complete, that he could behead someone at 400 paces, with nothing but a small spoon'

[excerpt from diary of [ReDaCtEd]

Teaspoon, not your girly pudding spoon you have going on there. pfff Banna skins easy mode should be the single seed of a week old pear....

Sn1p3r-28
10-21-2013, 03:09 PM
But what about the spoon.. the weapon of a true Assassin?


'It's said his skill with bladed weapons was so fully complete, that he could behead someone at 400 paces, with nothing but a small spoon'

[excerpt from diary of [ReDaCtEd]

Damn! how could I forget the best weapon of all. Eddy probably has a gold plated spoon.

SpiritMuse
10-21-2013, 03:35 PM
Yeah, I barely use the majority of Connor's arsenal. I've never really used the heavy weapons or the war clubs at all. I mostly used the tomahawk (and the basic one at that) until I got captain Kidd's sword, which I still use because it looks cool. I don't really see the point of using anything else, why use an axe when a sword does the job equally well? I mean, it's fine to have different weapons as upgrades for the old ones, or for different utility purposes like the blow darts with different effects, but having six different categories of weapons just for melee fighting is just too much (not to mention eleventy-billion types of bombs - I'm looking at you, Ezio!)

pacmanate
10-21-2013, 04:45 PM
Yeah, I barely use the majority of Connor's arsenal. I've never really used the heavy weapons or the war clubs at all. I mostly used the tomahawk (and the basic one at that) until I got captain Kidd's sword, which I still use because it looks cool. I don't really see the point of using anything else, why use an axe when a sword does the job equally well? I mean, it's fine to have different weapons as upgrades for the old ones, or for different utility purposes like the blow darts with different effects, but having six different categories of weapons just for melee fighting is just too much (not to mention eleventy-billion types of bombs - I'm looking at you, Ezio!)

The reason I never used Axes and Warclubs is that they are slow. Tomahawks and Swords were nice and fast. Never used knives as they were copy/paste.