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Raiden48
07-14-2004, 02:16 PM
Hi,

Today i started flying with a new stick wich has twistrudder function. I noticed that rudder usage is very usefull in lowering the recoil of the mk108 cannon. Also I have seen some good 109 pilots use rudder and aim at the same time , resulting in very accurate shooting. This part i cant do, so my question is , does anyone know a method in wich you use rudder and aim at a plane at the same time. The obvious answer is to twist the stick and then aim at an enemy plane, but thats nearly impossible http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Raiden48
07-14-2004, 02:16 PM
Hi,

Today i started flying with a new stick wich has twistrudder function. I noticed that rudder usage is very usefull in lowering the recoil of the mk108 cannon. Also I have seen some good 109 pilots use rudder and aim at the same time , resulting in very accurate shooting. This part i cant do, so my question is , does anyone know a method in wich you use rudder and aim at a plane at the same time. The obvious answer is to twist the stick and then aim at an enemy plane, but thats nearly impossible http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

horseback
07-14-2004, 02:31 PM
I am personally many moons removed from the twisty stick rudder, having moved on to CH Pro pedals, but I do remember a number of occasions when I had to apply full rudder in one direction or the other to bring my guns to bear.

I suspect that as you become used to your twist rudder, it will become second nature to you. The key is to keep your stick on a stable base (I can't count the times I stalled myself out because the stick had twisted around on me while I had my eyes glued to the screen).

Good ergonomics will help. I'd recommend using the keyboard tray for your stick and mouse, and moving the keyoard up to the desktop during your FB missions/flights.

cheers

horseback

"Here's your new Mustangs, boys. You can learn to fly'em on the way to the target. Cheers!" -LTCOL Don Blakeslee, 4th FG CO, February 27th, 1944

Maple_Tiger
07-14-2004, 02:46 PM
I usualy use my rudder to steer my boat.

Capt. 361stMapleTiger.
http://img52.photobucket.com/albums/v158/Maple_Tiger/FBAA2.gif
Proud member of the FBAA and Nutty Philosohpy Club.

Chuck_Older
07-14-2004, 03:16 PM
The rudder is a primary control input. You should use anything you can to bring your guns to bear.

I do it all the time. I don't sway the nose back and forth to spray the enemy unless I'm strafing, but I commonly use a little rudder to aim. Why not? Not using the rudder to advantage is the same as limiting your available manuevers by 33%

~edit

Is the problem that you are not used to using the rudder in a turn? Should be second nature to use the rudder as you turn in a bank and to ease the nose one way or the other when getting a firing position.

*****************************
The hillsides ring with, "Free the People",
Or can I hear the echoes from the days of '39?
~ Clash

Raiden48
07-14-2004, 03:25 PM
The problem might be that im not used to using rudder in dogfight situations, on the other hand i find it hard to move the stick to aim after i twisted it a little.

Chuck_Older
07-14-2004, 03:29 PM
Yes, the twist stick can be difficult to master and is uncomfortable sometimes. I personally dislike them because I find it a limiting factor that skill or luck doesn't make up for. The rudder is your friend http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

*****************************
The hillsides ring with, "Free the People",
Or can I hear the echoes from the days of '39?
~ Clash

Woof603
07-14-2004, 03:29 PM
If your ball is not centered by using the rudder you will not hit your target. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

http://www.spaads.org/denmark/spsabre.JPG

Udidtoo
07-14-2004, 04:04 PM
Horseback hit the nail. If you use it constantly, twisty grip or pedals, it will become second nature.

You sound as if your in the"have to think about it" stage.

By the time you progress to the "don't even relise I did it" phase and it truly has become second nature you will (hopefully) find your number of hit 2 miss greatly improved.

..............................
I always have just enough fuel to arrive at the scene of my crash.

arcadeace
07-14-2004, 04:23 PM
Yup, you're just getting used to it. I've used the twist for over 4 years and it became second nature. It will become very vital and you may wonder how you ever competed without it. Now I'm getting used to a rocker switch on a seperate HOTAS throttle component. I'm still in the "think about it" stage http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

BennyMoore
07-14-2004, 10:27 PM
Even if you're "used to it," it's still inferior to pedals. I could be wrong, but that may be the reason why real aircraft have pedals and not twisty sticks.

Also, pedals do not take any "getting used to." I had never used either pedals or twisty stick until I got my CH Pro Pedals, and as soon as I got the pedals, I was instantly at home. I was pleasantly surprised at how natural it felt, and within hours my gunnery had doubled or tripled in effectiveness. I had been flying aerial combat simulators for years.

Twisty sticks are still the death of me, if I am ever unfortunate enough to have to use one (my brother has one, and whenever I try to demonstrate something to him on his rig, I do it completely wrong because of the stupid, unrealistic twisty).

Take my word for it. Get pedals. They are absolutely superior to twisty stick, with no disadvantages. Also, a twisty stick has no advantages over pedals at all. Anyone who says otherwise does not know what they are talking about.

Farkitt_
07-14-2004, 11:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BennyMoore:
Even if you're "used to it," it's still inferior to pedals. I could be wrong, but that may be the reason why real aircraft have pedals and not twisty sticks.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You don't think it might have been the simple physics of leverage? Moving a Rudder bar with your legs, each a foot off a central fulcrum, or twisting a vertical stick in your hands.

Remember, Aircraft were around before Hydraulic Control assistance and fly by wire

http://www.jacksonharrison.co.uk/BoB2/Battle_personnel/Profiles/RAF/images/lacey.jpg

"You do that again, I'll boot your bollocks till they ring like the church bells at St Mary's. Next time, Ding ****" -Fanny Barton in "A Good Clean Fight" written By Derek Robinson

WUAF_Badsight
07-14-2004, 11:06 PM
learning a new way of flying is a TOTAL disadvantage Benny

rudder pedals are counter-intuitive to twist flyers

slower response , more limbs doing the controlling

twist makes more sense

.
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WTE_Galway
07-15-2004, 02:04 AM
if you ever think you may want to learn to fly buy the pedals

otherwise its kinda personal choice .. twist responds quicker but pedals give you more finesse for cancelling out skid when shooting

BennyMoore
07-15-2004, 02:45 AM
Quicker? Nope... I can kick my plane around as fast if not faster than any twist stick user. Counter intuitive? Nope... It's a completely natural feeling. As I said, I'd never used either, and I still didn't need to become accustomed to pedals when I got them. More limbs used? Yes, and that's a good thing. It leaves your hands free to concentrate fully on the other two tasks. In addition, you can't accidentally bump one while using the other, which frequently happens to twist stick users (just from watching others, I'm not counting my own fumbles with twist).

If it really were a superior system, or had any of the advantages you people are claiming, then they would implement twist on modern fly by wire aircraft. And don't say that pilots are already used to rudders, because most fighter pilots didn't know how to fly anything before they got into their trainer.

Honestly, I can't believe I'm being drawn into explaining this. Actually, I can't believe that we're even having this argument. Again, anyone who thinks that twist is a viable system, especially when there is already a tried and true system with no disadvantages, is nuts.

Case closed!

WUAF_Badsight
07-15-2004, 03:21 AM
you think trainers would be built with fly-by-wire electronic twist sticks over the eon old hydraulic pedal rudder system ? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

twist is far better for gaming

& for twist users Rudder pedals are completely wrong

twist users only need to process controlling their hands , less to work & use & process

any change to your flying style is a bad thing , it takes time to re-learn how to fly effectivly again

twist joystick is the fastest way to make the rudder respond

.
__________________________________________________ __________________________
actual UBI post :
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dannychrastina
07-15-2004, 05:47 AM
I have a twisty stick and I like it a lot. I would need to buy a new chair if I wanted to use pedals.

B16Enk
07-15-2004, 10:31 AM
I tried both - keyboard, twisty and pedals (numeracy is a strong point of mine I think :veryhappy) and have to say that pedals, for me at least, were natural.

I often found myself inadvertently applying rudder with the twisty, largely due to my enthusiasm no doubt, and failing to land shots.

However those that persevere with twisties ultimately master them, but I for one cannot claim one is better than the other, only my preference which is to use my feet.

Ok immersion plays a part too, which is one of the reasons I also invested in TiR.

diomedes33
07-15-2004, 12:16 PM
I just started doing this and its improved my accuracy a lot. When I'm attacking a plane, I use rudder and elevators to hold it stationary relative to the reticle, so the plane should just look like its sitting there on your screen. If you have the lead right, you will be able to put a lot of lead in them.

I bound the rocker on the x-45 throttle to the rudder and have gotten quite comfortable with it. I had a twist stick for awhile, but always found that I was twisting my hand at awkward angles that made it difficult to hold a firing solution.

I'm sure as with anything, if you practice it enough, it will become second nature. Good luck.

http://www.public.asu.edu/~guthriec/ubi_sig.jpg

SparrowThree
07-15-2004, 12:25 PM
I'm still trying to adapt to the rudder rocker switch on my X45. It seems to be full rudder or none at all.

TD_Klondike
07-15-2004, 12:30 PM
Personally, I believe that the rudder, ailerons and elevator should be used to coordinate a clean-flying airplane, and that slipping or skidding is just sloppy flying. I believe that your success will ultimately be greater if you master the not-so-sexy art of maintaining coordination.

That being said, skidding from side to side can be very effective when strafing columns on the ground, and spreading fire over the lenght of a bomber (if you advocate that type of shooting).

As far as usability is concerned, anything can be learned or relearned, and one method will have no impact on your total skill than any other method. It's familiarity, and nothing more.

Agamemnon22
07-15-2004, 12:37 PM
You get used to it. The problem I have is that I sometimes don't center my rudder. I guess it has to do with the ergonomics of my set-up, but sometimes I look down and notice that my stick is twisted a bit. Took conscious effort to kick that habit. I can't say I've mastered rudder alone, most of my aiming is a combination of all 3 control axis. However, one tactic that I've picked up is, in a head-on, fly at angle to the attacker, then kick over rudder at the last second and spray him in the face.

[This message was edited by Agamemnon22 on Thu July 15 2004 at 01:48 PM.]

Manos1
07-15-2004, 12:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SparrowThree:
I'm still trying to adapt to the rudder rocker switch on my X45. It seems to be full rudder or none at all.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Known problem....
Start IL2FB, go to Hardware and look at the responce setup of each axis of your joystick.

Sometimes the rudder response is set to 100% everytime.
Look at the setting of the elevator and ailerons. They are progressive. Use the same kind of setup for the rudder axis as well.

This should solve a large part of your problems....

Then, the issue of the throttle position (you have X45, right?) may be a nuissance. Flying full power (throttle moved all the way forward) makes handling of the rudders complicated to some people.
Therefore, go to the command settings in IL2FB and REVERSE the throttle movement: When you pull the throttle all the way back it gives 100% power.
Some people (like myself) found this setting more comfortable for handling better the rudder.
This should solve most of your remaining problems....

And then, go and buy yourself a decent pair of rudder pedals http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif
Trust me http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

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SparrowThree
07-15-2004, 01:17 PM
Thanks for the tip!

TooCooL34
07-15-2004, 01:38 PM
Have used all of them for a long time, rocker, twist and foot pedals now.

Foot pedals could be good, could be bad.

Advantage:
a) Intuitive.
b) Realistic and more immersive.
c) Gives diffrent new feel over twist rudder.(It becomes your 2nd elevator in 3d world. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif )

Disadvantage:
a) Cumbersome to set up my cockpit before fly. (it, however, resticts my addiction. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif )
b) Intuitive but a bit slow reaction. (but don't judge on reaction spd cause foot pedals require different flying skill.)
c) My hip hurts when i play more than 3 hours!!

I can fly with anything, both with twist & foot pedals.
Both have its merits but I prefer foot pedals cause WW2(and modern) planes had foot pedals!!

Try real a/c and you'll be embrassed when you find real stick doesn't twist and foot pedals demand your feet. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

OldMan____
07-15-2004, 02:44 PM
Just add a new candidate..

My Joy is a MS SideWinder 1. No twist.. no hatch.. and no pedals. I do use the thortle lever as rudder command.

Everyone say its !@#!%!#% but I figure it out that I have a sort of rudder trimm.. and a lot more precision than with any other option.

If brute force does not solve your problem... you are not using enough!

WTE_Galway
07-15-2004, 08:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SparrowThree:

Therefore, go to the command settings in IL2FB and REVERSE the throttle movement: When you pull the throttle all the way back it gives 100% power.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I am very wary of anything that works opposite to the conventional method in a real aircraft because in an emergency in a real plane you might just firewall the throttle thinking you are cutting it and kill yourself

BennyMoore
07-15-2004, 10:04 PM
Where is the post that you took that quote from? It's not in this thread.

As to all of you twisty stick users who are serious in your arguments for it, I have not much more to say to you. Go! Use your twisty sticks! Feel like you're doing great! Don't use pedals, don't bother to spend ten minutes learning the new system!

It's not my flying skill that will suffer. I'm not the one getting hurt by your refusals. If I seem miffed it is only because I thought I was doing a favor by dispelling the myth of how effective twist is. It's not that I'm upset that you aren't going to use rudders. Say it not! But apparently it's not a myth after all, so go ahead and use your damn twisty sticks. I truly don't care.

OldMan____
07-16-2004, 10:53 AM
It is not a simple case of wanting.. Pedals of the cheapest type cost a whole month of my payment where I live (and yes.. I Do have a quite good payment).

If brute force does not solve your problem... you are not using enough!

geetarman
07-16-2004, 11:03 AM
TD - the Japanese flew they way you described until about mid-way through the war, and then stopped after many of them who were downed by Yank fliers who skidded and porpoised through the sky. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Many US pilots commented that the Japanese flew in perfect coordination during combat, so good that they became somewhat predictable.

At least in combat - perfect coordinated flying is not necessarily a desirable trait.

Xnomad
07-16-2004, 12:01 PM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif You used to fly without rudder? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif That's pretty nasty!

I used to have a twisty stick and found it pretty intuitive I realised that I was doing the right thing without having to think. Then I got Rudder Pedals, I thought it was a bad idea it took me 4 days or so to learn to use them, I kept twisting my stick and forgetting to ease pressure on a pedal occasionally. I don't think the pedals are that much more of an advantage but they do make you more rudder conscious and that is important.

Your rudder can be your airbrake, by side slipping you can slow down your plane a great deal and slide in behind your target. Your rudder helps you pull tighter turns without stalling a wing, and your rudder saves your bacon when you stall a wing and begin to spin, that's why I find it hard that people are flying without rudder input http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

You can speed up your rolls with rudder input and smooth them out so you can roll and correct so that when you finish you are still aiming at your target.

Wow with a lot of practice you can pull off manouvres in a fast Bf 109 which other people would lower combat flaps for, you just brake your plane with the rudder to reach the turning speed sweetspot and hang on to your target.

Also the Bf 109 has no rudder trim so pedals are what you need as holding rudder trim with a twisty stick is impossible unless you are flying level.

http://www.xnomad.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/sig.jpg

StihlCanuk
07-16-2004, 12:44 PM
Aha!! Excellent input here.I'm still using keyboard buttons for rudder control.I hate it!

It's either "full rudder or none at all".I find myself going tap tap....tap tap on the buttons, which really shakes things up.

I've thought about a twisty stick, but have had reservations.Judging what some of you have said I'll go with my insistinct on this one.

Have considered a rocker switch vs pedals.I think rocker would be easier,provided it's not full rudder or none at all.Pedals are more realistic but more effort is involved.

I will be watching this thread closely.Great input here!

Meditate on this ,I will........Yoda http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

Rodger,go with throttle up...

StihlCanuk
07-17-2004, 03:39 AM
Awww....C'mon guys!!More input!! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/cry.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/51.gif

Rodger,go with throttle up...

F19_Ob
07-17-2004, 04:06 AM
Its very hard to give advice since everyone have different styles of fighting.
I dont think about it anymore but I frequently use rudder when aiming and swinging the nose in slow speeds.

A good suggestion is to set down the sensitivity abit though, because it might otherwise add to the twitchyness and wobbling.

-----------------------------------------------

I have noticed I often lead normally without rudder, but i lead above the target in the turn, "aside" the gunsight and then "rudder" into position.

Also when I climb after an enemy with better energy I swing the nose in the slow speed to draw deflection wich works better than if u use ailerons and elevators only. The rudder is capable of great input in this situation.


In a turn u can also use the rudder to spray the ammo more If U arent sure U are tracking correctly.


a few thoughts

joy470
09-18-2004, 01:04 AM
Hi!

Thanks for your comments.

I just had my CH stick and pedals.

I am not sure, how would you put them to work. I believe that rudder has to be used for moving the rudder, and only for that? To achieve a realistic flight with IL2.

What is your control function setup looking like?

Is it like C:\IL2\pedals.jpg

Control functions , / and . moves the rubber. I would like move my rudder with pedals only.

Please, if possible, send the whole control function for me, with conf.ini.

It would be a good help for me.

Thank you. Regards, Joy470



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Xnomad:
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif You used to fly without rudder? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif That's pretty nasty!

I used to have a twisty stick and found it pretty intuitive I realised that I was doing the right thing without having to think. Then I got Rudder Pedals, I thought it was a bad idea it took me 4 days or so to learn to use them, I kept twisting my stick and forgetting to ease pressure on a pedal occasionally. I don't think the pedals are that much more of an advantage but they do make you more rudder conscious and that is important.

Your rudder can be your airbrake, by side slipping you can slow down your plane a great deal and slide in behind your target. Your rudder helps you pull tighter turns without stalling a wing, and your rudder saves your bacon when you stall a wing and begin to spin, that's why I find it hard that people are flying without rudder input http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

You can speed up your rolls with rudder input and smooth them out so you can roll and correct so that when you finish you are still aiming at your target.

Wow with a lot of practice you can pull off manouvres in a fast Bf 109 which other people would lower combat flaps for, you just brake your plane with the rudder to reach the turning speed sweetspot and hang on to your target.

Also the Bf 109 has no rudder trim so pedals are what you need as holding rudder trim with a twisty stick is impossible unless you are flying level.

http://www.xnomad.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/sig.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Daiichidoku
09-18-2004, 02:22 AM
Both have gtood and bad points.....but I dont knko wabout you, Xnomad, but I have NP at all using rudder regardless of other manuvers with my mspp2 twisty

As fo rwhoever said to REVERSE the throttle input for the X-45?....I dont have an X-45, so I dunno, maybe its a good idea....but it's not necessarily REVERSE if you're flying a British type....IRL they had throttles BACK fo rfull power...or was that the Russians?

http://groups.msn.com/TaoofDaiichidoku/shoebox.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=1

Tully__
09-18-2004, 02:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Arcadeace:
...Now I'm getting used to a rocker switch on a seperate HOTAS throttle component. I'm still in the "think about it" stage http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I nearly twisted my X-45 stick to death in the first two weeks of using it. Over time I adapted to the point where I thought I was hardly using rudder at all except when taking off or landing, until I had reason to try a stick with no rudder at all.... what a horror story.

The moral is, you'll adapt without realising it. After a week or two try flying without twist rudder and see how much you've really adapted.

=================================================


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Tully's X-45 profile (SST drivers) (http://members.optusnet.com.au/tully_78th/fb.zip)
Joysticks & FB (http://www.airwarfare.com/tech/sticks.htm)

Salut
Tully

Tully__
09-18-2004, 02:38 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SparrowThree:
I'm still trying to adapt to the rudder rocker switch on my X45. It seems to be full rudder or none at all.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Have you done anything with the joystick sensitivity setup in game? I have my rocker rudder set with the following slider settings:

35 41 48 56 67 76 82 89 95 100

=================================================


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Tully's X-45 profile (SST drivers) (http://members.optusnet.com.au/tully_78th/fb.zip)
Joysticks & FB (http://www.airwarfare.com/tech/sticks.htm)

Salut
Tully

JG54_Arnie
09-18-2004, 02:59 AM
Rudder is a must, in the FW, all deflection shots need rudder. Using padles that came with my steering wheel btw, works great. I've flown with a twiststick before that, but pedals are a lot better indeed. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

---------------------------
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ArjenKuifje
09-18-2004, 04:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by OldMan____:
It is not a simple case of wanting.. Pedals of the cheapest type cost a whole month of my payment where I live (and yes.. I Do have a quite good payment)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pedals do not have to be expensive, not if you build your own!
I've done so, using a joystick.
Interested how I did it?
Read this:

Rudder pedals
Notes:
* Measurements may need adjustments, depending on model and size of Joystick! (Or by your own ideas or preferences)
* This is not a fool-proof build-manual!
* I can give no guarantee on if it will work!
* Be careful in using power-tools, and other sharp tools!
* Warning: English is not my native language...

Materials:
-One Joystick, USB (I used a Thrustmaster Predator TH 400)
-One ballbearing, 7cm (I used one from the rear-wheel of a VW-beetle..;-)
-Rubber- or other elastic band (rather 'powerfull')

Wood:
-One 18mm thick plate, 36cm x 42cm (Base-plate)
-One 18mm thick plate, 25cm x 17cm (Joystick base-plate)
-One bar 18mm thick 50cm x 7cm (Rudder-bar)
-Two blocks, 4.5cm x 4.5cm x 8cm (full-deflection delimiters)
-Two plates, 8m thick, 27cm x 10cm (Footholds)
-Two pieces of carpet, 27cm x 10cm (Carpet for the footholds)
-One 12mm thick plate, 4cm x 15cm ('Fork-base')
-Two 8mm thick plates, 4cm x 15cm ('Fork-sides')
-One block, 2cm x 4cm x 8 cm (part of the fork)
- Some screws...
-Glue

Instructions:
- Mount the footholds on both ends of the rudder-bar, you might want to mount them in an inclined way, to have more grip, or a better hold for your feet. Glue the carpet onto the holds.
- Mount the ball-bearing on the base plate, and on the ball bearing mount the rudder-bar (Main thing is: the bar should be able to rotate on the bearing. Any other solution can work, I find the ball bearing very sturdy...)
- Create the fork, by mounting the two fork-side plates on each side of the fork base plate, and the small block in between. (See drawing 'Rudder-Fork') Note that measurements and construction need to be adjusted, so the fork will fit neatly around the top of joystick....
(Feel free to do this completely different from my way....!)
- Mount the joystick base plate vertically on the base plate, on the opposite side of where the rudder bar is mounted.
- Mount the joystick on it's base-plate, in which it's flipped in a way that the side that normaly faces you when using the stick, is on top. If you do this the other way 'round, applying left rudder will result in right-rudder and vice versa...
I just drilled holes in the case of the stick, and use two large screws to fix it. Please inspect the inside of the stick before drilling holes, so you will not damage any wires or electronics inside!
- Now mount the fork on the rudder bar, adjust it untill it fits into the top of the joystick, and deflecting of the rudder bar gives full motion to the joystick.
- Place the two blocks on the base-plate, so they function as full deflection delimiters, if you leave them out, you will find you kick the rudder with too much power, you will probably break the joystick, or it will come loose from the fork.
- Mount the center of the rubber band on the block on top of the fork, and either end to each side of the joystick base plate, and adjust the tension, so the rudder will center automatically if you 'let go', and also to prevent the rudder from moving too easyly.


(Sorry, cannot post pictures of the thing, do not know how to transfer the from my pc to this forum...But, does it make any sense?)

horseback
09-18-2004, 11:02 AM
joy470-

the first step to setting up your CH stick and pedals is to make use of your CH Control Manager program. Using this, you can combine the stick and pedals into one Controller for Il-2/FB to see. If you don't already have it, you can get it at

http://chproducts.com/retail/tech_support_usb.html

I've found the program very useful--you can reassign buttons, set sensitivities, and as I said, combine up to three CH controllers into ONE Master Controller. I recommend printing out the applicable Help pages and keeping them in a looseleaf binder (I find that flipping through real pages is easier than computer screens).

That said, the next best way - and you'll have to do it anyway - is to consult page 23 of your FB manual, which tells you to select 'Controls' on your Main Menu. Go down to the bottom of the Controls Menu, where the HOTAS (HOTAS is a common term referring to Hands On Throttle And Stick) section is; click on the area opposite the control you want to use, for instance, Rudder, then push your right rudder pedal forward. If the game senses your controller, that axis will then be assigned to that function. I have the Pro Throttle as well, so I generally assign my stick throttle axis to Flaps. I also am able to assign one of my brake pedals to Brakes (differential braking in Il-2/FB is achieved by applying a little rudder deflection at the same time as Brakes). I would also make sure the X-Y axes are selected for my joystick as well.

While you're in the Control Menu, you can assign Joystick buttons/keyboard keys to the functions you want, where you want'em. For instance, assigning Look Up and Look Down Snap Views to a key you can easily reach allows you to press that key while moving your POV hatswitch, and raising or lowering your field of view 45 degrees.

You're not limited to the default settings, either; I never use the Weapon 3 setting in a LW campaign, so button three for those 'pilots' has been set to use it to toggle field of view. It comes in handy.

cheers

horseback

"Here's your new Mustangs, boys. You can learn to fly'em on the way to the target. Cheers!" -LTCOL Don Blakeslee, 4th FG CO, February 27th, 1944

joy470
09-20-2004, 02:35 AM
Thank you, horseback!

I definitely download and familiarize myself with CH Control Manager program. Good hint!
Probably, after a while, I am happy with the setup.
CH products are reliable and with them one is capable of getting the real as possible flying experience.

Your reply was unselfish and analytic: thank you indeed! I still wonder, what your conf.ini looks like http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Regards, Joy470

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by horseback:
joy470-

the first step to setting up your CH stick and pedals is to make use of your CH Control Manager program. Using this, you can combine the stick and pedals into one Controller for Il-2/FB to see. If you don't already have it, you can get it at

http://chproducts.com/retail/tech_support_usb.html

I've found the program very useful--you can reassign buttons, set sensitivities, and as I said, combine up to three CH controllers into ONE Master Controller. I recommend printing out the applicable Help pages and keeping them in a looseleaf binder (I find that flipping through real pages is easier than computer screens).

That said, the next best way - and you'll have to do it anyway - is to consult page 23 of your FB manual, which tells you to select 'Controls' on your Main Menu. Go down to the bottom of the Controls Menu, where the HOTAS (HOTAS is a common term referring to Hands On Throttle And Stick) section is; click on the area opposite the control you want to use, for instance, Rudder, then push your right rudder pedal forward. If the game senses your controller, that axis will then be assigned to that function. I have the Pro Throttle as well, so I generally assign my stick throttle axis to Flaps. I also am able to assign one of my brake pedals to Brakes (differential braking in Il-2/FB is achieved by applying a little rudder deflection at the same time as Brakes). I would also make sure the X-Y axes are selected for my joystick as well.

While you're in the Control Menu, you can assign Joystick buttons/keyboard keys to the functions you want, where you want'em. For instance, assigning Look Up and Look Down Snap Views to a key you can easily reach allows you to press that key while moving your POV hatswitch, and raising or lowering your field of view 45 degrees.

You're not limited to the default settings, either; I never use the Weapon 3 setting in a LW campaign, so button three for those 'pilots' has been set to use it to toggle field of view. It comes in handy.

cheers

horseback

"Here's your new Mustangs, boys. You can learn to fly'em on the way to the target. Cheers!" -LTCOL Don Blakeslee, 4th FG CO, February 27th, 1944<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

HansKnappstick
09-20-2004, 06:56 AM
Sometimes I have a feeling that I am flying a different version of the game than the rest of the world. Well, in my version of the game the airplane never flies the way I want it to, it never reaches the specified max speed, the bullets I shoot always miss...

ahem...

Well in this case, the rudder never works as you guys describe. If I refrain from using it, all the turns are perfectly coordinated, i.e. the ball stays in the middle. This holds for any aircraft. If I try to use the rudder while aiming, all my airplane does is a wild swing to one side, than another swing to the opposite side, and that's it, and my bullets miss even more than usually.

If I try to use the rudder during manoeuvres, such as barrel roll, I end up in a spin very often.

So, after 2 years or so of simulated flying, the only use I find for the rudder is during taxiing.

Tully__
09-20-2004, 06:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HansKnappstick:
...So, after 2 years or so of simulated flying, the only use I find for the rudder is during taxiing.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's what I thought until I tried a joystick that doesn't have rudder control. Very enlightening, I actually use it all the time.

=================================================


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Joysticks & FB (http://www.airwarfare.com/tech/sticks.htm)

Salut
Tully

TgD Thunderbolt56
09-20-2004, 09:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HansKnappstick:
So, after 2 years or so of simulated flying, the only use I find for the rudder is during taxiing.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Rudder input is very touchy and should be done conservatively. A small amount of input can make a world of difference in turning ability, gunnery, etc,...

Also, don't forget the degree of "throw" on the controller/pedal is gradual too. Some have deadened their rudder input as they have difficulty controlling the amount of input precisely. If you have a heavy foot on the rudder pedals, you might try this.

I use rudder ALOT, but seldom give maximum deflection. This is one case where "less is more".

TB


Our FB server info: http://www.greatergreen.com/il2

Jumoschwanz
09-20-2004, 09:38 AM
It is something else that damned human brain.

I have used the MS Precision 2 since late 2001. I like to fly in cockpit on servers when i can find one that will not boot my 56k a$$. And flyin on these I am using the sticks twist to control the rudder while simultaneously using the hat-switch and one base button to control my view and look around, along with some keyboard buttons for this and that. Now in a one on one dogfight this is literally a real handful. And a pain in the a$$. It was a lot nicer when you could find more servers with padlock enabled to take the load off in tight situations. S!

Jumoschwanz