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Enclase
10-04-2013, 02:01 AM
Hey,


i don't wanna talk about the bad system for the online-qualifiers including bugged cards and crashes, i guess everyone - including Ubisoft - has realized that this was more a flop (even if 2 absolute topplayers, oyau and Nillicomes, were able to get their ticket on this way).

I just wanna give another thought about the whole system and the problem with it - so maybe we will see in the next year a tournament, where everything is more fair.


The Problem: The Real-Life-Qualifiers were just a joke overall. How you wanna have a fair contest, if some people have more chances than all the others? Let's take matrix.disc as example. It's not that i have a problem with him as a finalist, but his ticket shows, where the system has a problem.

99.9 % of all players were only able to play the online-qualifiers. That means, 99.9 % of all players were fighting for 2 tickets (maybe 3, including the wildcard). At all the other qualifiers, 8-max. 60 players were fighting for one ticket each.

matrix.disc was able to play the online-qualifiers...after it he was playing on the GamesCom...after it he was playing the WildCard-Tournament, because of his second place on the GamesCom...and finally he was also playing the EuroGamer and finally get the ticket.

99.9 % of all players -> 2 chances...Some players with enough money, time, motivation to travel, connections,or whatever were able to have 5 chances or even more. And that's even more sad if we think about the fact, that the offline-qualifiers were more or less a joke without any big competition. Most of all there were only a few players and a maximum of maybe 1-3 'topplayers'.

Funfact: None of the qualifiers were in Poland or France, the countrys with the biggest playerbase in DoC.

Again, i don't wanna trashtalk someone, but for a worldchampionship and a game, that wanna go big steps into a competetive way, it's just sad if some tickets are going to people who have not even reached 1500 elo - and this were happening on the Dreamhack and also at PAX-Aus.

The winner of the PAX-Australia is Level 17 (this is possible to reach in less than one day playtime) and was getting his ticket in a battle vs. 7 other participants!
The winner of the Dreamhack has 1271 Elo...
The winner of EuroGamer was using his 5th chance...

No, i don't wanna say that this are bad players - because most of all i have no idea / i don't know them. But to be honest: It's just the truth, that every single of the 5-Real-Life-Tickets was 100x easier to get than one of the Online-Tickets. The result is easy: It was not a fair competition and we will see some of the best players in Paris, but not really the 8 best players.

LoL/Dota/SC2 would not be as big as they are in eSports, if they would have used a system like this. 'Oh, let's go for 'The International'. One Qualifier on every convention, everyone can participate, the winner is getting the ticket...of course, you can also participate on different conventions!' ;-)

I would appreciate it, if you would think about another system for the next years. For example: 1 Online-Qualifier for NA, 1 for Australia + Rest of the world, 1 for Europe and 5 genereal Online-Qualifiers - with a better system, on an own server with an own ladder, where every player has all cards unlocked. That would be a fair system, it would not penalize the normal ladder and MMDoC could call their Worldchampionship an eSports-Event ;-) For this year, this is unfortunly not really the case.

But of course: It's still very nice that you organize something like this and i'm sure, we will see some awesome matches in Paris. :)


Greetz,
Enclase

M0rw47h
10-04-2013, 02:08 AM
I would love to see Nationals with winner or top3 of each invited to World Champs...

Le.Rancord
10-04-2013, 08:41 AM
Hey,


i don't wanna talk about the bad system for the online-qualifiers including bugged cards and crashes, i guess everyone - including Ubisoft - has realized that this was more a flop (even if 2 absolute topplayers, oyau and Nillicomes, were able to get their ticket on this way).

I just wanna give another thought about the whole system and the problem with it - so maybe we will see in the next year a tournament, where everything is more fair.


The Problem: The Real-Life-Qualifiers were just a joke overall. How you wanna have a fair contest, if some people have more chances than all the others? Let's take matrix.disc as example. It's not that i have a problem with him as a finalist, but his ticket shows, where the system has a problem.

99.9 % of all players were only able to play the online-qualifiers. That means, 99.9 % of all players were fighting for 2 tickets (maybe 3, including the wildcard). At all the other qualifiers, 8-max. 60 players were fighting for one ticket each.

matrix.disc was able to play the online-qualifiers...after it he was playing on the GamesCom...after it he was playing the WildCard-Tournament, because of his second place on the GamesCom...and finally he was also playing the EuroGamer and finally get the ticket.

99.9 % of all players -> 2 chances...Some players with enough money, time, motivation to travel, connections,or whatever were able to have 5 chances or even more. And that's even more sad if we think about the fact, that the offline-qualifiers were more or less a joke without any big competition. Most of all there were only a few players and a maximum of maybe 1-3 'topplayers'.

Funfact: None of the qualifiers were in Poland or France, the countrys with the biggest playerbase in DoC.

Again, i don't wanna trashtalk someone, but for a worldchampionship and a game, that wanna go big steps into a competetive way, it's just sad if some tickets are going to people who have not even reached 1500 elo - and this were happening on the Dreamhack and also at PAX-Aus.

The winner of the PAX-Australia is Level 17 (this is possible to reach in less than one day playtime) and was getting his ticket in a battle vs. 7 other participants!
The winner of the Dreamhack has 1271 Elo...
The winner of EuroGamer was using his 5th chance...

No, i don't wanna say that this are bad players - because most of all i have no idea / i don't know them. But to be honest: It's just the truth, that every single of the 5-Real-Life-Tickets was 100x easier to get than one of the Online-Tickets. The result is easy: It was not a fair competition and we will see some of the best players in Paris, but not really the 8 best players.

LoL/Dota/SC2 would not be as big as they are in eSports, if they would have used a system like this. 'Oh, let's go for 'The International'. One Qualifier on every convention, everyone can participate, the winner is getting the ticket...of course, you can also participate on different conventions!' ;-)

I would appreciate it, if you would think about another system for the next years. For example: 1 Online-Qualifier for NA, 1 for Australia + Rest of the world, 1 for Europe and 5 genereal Online-Qualifiers - with a better system, on an own server with an own ladder, where every player has all cards unlocked. That would be a fair system, it would not penalize the normal ladder and MMDoC could call their Worldchampionship an eSports-Event ;-) For this year, this is unfortunly not really the case.

But of course: It's still very nice that you organize something like this and i'm sure, we will see some awesome matches in Paris. :)


Greetz,
Enclase

+1

Revelataen
10-04-2013, 08:51 AM
Hey,


i don't wanna talk about the bad system for the online-qualifiers including bugged cards and crashes, i guess everyone - including Ubisoft - has realized that this was more a flop (even if 2 absolute topplayers, oyau and Nillicomes, were able to get their ticket on this way).

I just wanna give another thought about the whole system and the problem with it - so maybe we will see in the next year a tournament, where everything is more fair.


The Problem: The Real-Life-Qualifiers were just a joke overall. How you wanna have a fair contest, if some people have more chances than all the others? Let's take matrix.disc as example. It's not that i have a problem with him as a finalist, but his ticket shows, where the system has a problem.

99.9 % of all players were only able to play the online-qualifiers. That means, 99.9 % of all players were fighting for 2 tickets (maybe 3, including the wildcard). At all the other qualifiers, 8-max. 60 players were fighting for one ticket each.

matrix.disc was able to play the online-qualifiers...after it he was playing on the GamesCom...after it he was playing the WildCard-Tournament, because of his second place on the GamesCom...and finally he was also playing the EuroGamer and finally get the ticket.

99.9 % of all players -> 2 chances...Some players with enough money, time, motivation to travel, connections,or whatever were able to have 5 chances or even more. And that's even more sad if we think about the fact, that the offline-qualifiers were more or less a joke without any big competition. Most of all there were only a few players and a maximum of maybe 1-3 'topplayers'.

Funfact: None of the qualifiers were in Poland or France, the countrys with the biggest playerbase in DoC.

Again, i don't wanna trashtalk someone, but for a worldchampionship and a game, that wanna go big steps into a competetive way, it's just sad if some tickets are going to people who have not even reached 1500 elo - and this were happening on the Dreamhack and also at PAX-Aus.

The winner of the PAX-Australia is Level 17 (this is possible to reach in less than one day playtime) and was getting his ticket in a battle vs. 7 other participants!
The winner of the Dreamhack has 1271 Elo...
The winner of EuroGamer was using his 5th chance...

No, i don't wanna say that this are bad players - because most of all i have no idea / i don't know them. But to be honest: It's just the truth, that every single of the 5-Real-Life-Tickets was 100x easier to get than one of the Online-Tickets. The result is easy: It was not a fair competition and we will see some of the best players in Paris, but not really the 8 best players.

LoL/Dota/SC2 would not be as big as they are in eSports, if they would have used a system like this. 'Oh, let's go for 'The International'. One Qualifier on every convention, everyone can participate, the winner is getting the ticket...of course, you can also participate on different conventions!' ;-)

I would appreciate it, if you would think about another system for the next years. For example: 1 Online-Qualifier for NA, 1 for Australia + Rest of the world, 1 for Europe and 5 genereal Online-Qualifiers - with a better system, on an own server with an own ladder, where every player has all cards unlocked. That would be a fair system, it would not penalize the normal ladder and MMDoC could call their Worldchampionship an eSports-Event ;-) For this year, this is unfortunly not really the case.

But of course: It's still very nice that you organize something like this and i'm sure, we will see some awesome matches in Paris. :)


Greetz,
Enclase

+2

More national qualifers, sone league system with points from different tournaments or just better optimalized online qualifers when 2-3 loss from crashes or stupid mistakes dont count as much as now.
Anyway, it was Your First International so I hope that the next will be better. Im pretty sure about it ;)
Thx for all of Your effort.

Nhemezis
10-04-2013, 04:53 PM
Totally agree with Enclase, I think that this tournament was organize like this because it was easy to do but I think that it would be better to wait until you have the ressources to organize a real fair world championship than do such kind of tournament.

Ethiar

devilfruit666
10-04-2013, 05:11 PM
Yes this was more like championship for people who live near some game event not world championship.

del170109032657
10-04-2013, 05:47 PM
We have already confirmed the system will be revamped in the coming years. We've been hard at work behind the scenes to reformat the event to be more fair for ALL players.

One of the main reasons I was brought on board our team is because I have quite a bit of experience in the eSports realm. I'll be using that experience and YOUR feedback to revamp this moving forward. Yes, that means YOU. If you're reading this right now then I need your feedback. What would you like to see in the coming years? Go ahead and post your comments here in this thread. Lets shift this discussion to feedback. Answer these questions...


What format would you like to see future world championships use?
What features do we absolutely need to see implemented into the game?
What kind of prizes would you like to see?
If you had a complete control over the future of competitive Duel of Champions, what would you do?

Your feedback is crucial so that we can input your desires into our plans moving forward. Thanks in advance everyone :)

w1z43
10-04-2013, 07:14 PM
+1 to whole post, especially :




It was not a fair competition and we will see some of the best players in Paris, but not really the 8 best players.

LoL/Dota/SC2 would not be as big as they are in eSports, if they would have used a system like this. 'Oh, let's go for 'The International'. One Qualifier on every convention, everyone can participate, the winner is getting the ticket...of course, you can also participate on different conventions!' ;-)



Yeah, after years of playing Blizzard and Riot games and watching their events it's easy to see the difference. Since I haven't seen and haven't played better TGC game then MMDOC I would like it to see and use experience of other games / companies and improve <3 . This doesn't mean copy paste and become clonning of some other game. Just not to do mistakes that industry is already learned from :) .

If I had a complete control over the future of competitive Duel of Champions, that's what I will change :

I really dont see this game going anywhere without proper rank / devision system. It's wierd for both players to play 700 vs 1500 rating.

Perhaps one of the best qualities of both companies mentioned earlier imo is support to their games - updates, patches, hotfixes, immidiately removing certain item from a game if there is problem/bug/card is clearly op, reballancing, changing and etc. The opposite of this is to let something broken/bugged/op to to survive and make a difference in a tournament or qualifiers.

Would like to see a reason why not to drop rating and farm in 500-1000, also a way to prevent (or punish harder) people leaving at the first turn. And some protection for newcomers - it's disheartening to play vs few epic cards below level 10, or below 500 rating.

Something has to be done with the players who wait full duration turn just to annoy - even if it's only some sound or shiny animation when there is nothing else to be done this turn.

The possibility for same card to be used by any hero.

Altar of wishes to be able to sort by type of magic and race.

Removing / reworking useless things like gold boost.

Facebook "Server Status - Twitter" usually doesn't provide correct information.

Not sure about the forum and facebook, but launcher, website and in game news feed - all those news sections are always behind,not synchronised and outdated (instead of being powerfull tool of bringing information to the players).

Fixing the broken client - all the known bugs, erros, game crashes. Since players loose time, tickets in tourneys/ gold / seals / exp - it's annoying and frustrating.

Like in LoL game client can flash when player alt tabed and riceved a message from a friend.

Need a proper way to see what happened last turn - something like scrolable combat log.

Sometimes being 1st or 2nd in a duel mean sure loose (and player have no control over it). Would like to offer a better idea, but don't have one. :-/


All this text doesn't mean that the game is bad, it mean that there are already great things implemented, but there are some obvious must places to go soon :-)

stingmoggie
10-04-2013, 08:42 PM
I have been playing Mtg for 17 years, both online and paper and participated in many tournaments including a Worlds Championship in 2008. I believe their tournament and ranking systems are flawless.
I learned about DoC about 1 month ago via twitch.tv and have been playing then, so I would like to share my thoughts on the issue;

- Duel of Champions need to be more mainstream to be a competitive game, pretty obvious. You have been doing a great job since the release of Forgotten Wars but not enough to be a esport.

- The game needs more constructed formats and most impostantly a limited format; drafts and sealed tournaments. Those are also crucial to make a tournament event more fun and versatile. I believe this is the most important part in the game at the moment.

- Tournament structures must be revamped ASAP. Current 8 man swiss tournaments are not fair and that is why you should switch to a single or double elemination system. Losing your final match and getting 3rd place because your opponent quit really stupid. I will not talk about offline qualifier and stuff because I'm sure you are aware of the problems.

- You should implement a point system where you get tournament points for every event you participate and make a ranking out of it. Like winning a swiss event, getting into top 8 of an online tournament or any other future event you will organize and the top players from that ranking should recieve rewards such as invitation to other tournaments, promo cards, forum title etc. The rankings should be reset a few times in a year according to your schedules (split into seasons). This system is currently used by Mtgo and it is awesome.

- People should be motivated to play an esport, which means rewards. Make a good pricepool for your tournaments. I'm not talking about money, but keep small stuff like promo cards, hall of fames, individual privilages, invitation to offline events. The best example to this would be that you were allowed to make your own card if you were to win the world championship in MtG. Ofcourse you are not allowed to do whatever you want, you work with the balance team ^^ but at least everybody who play mtg knows which card is "Bob" :)

There are more to add to the list but I believe these are the most urgent ones. I hope it helps ^^

xpt3x
10-04-2013, 10:04 PM
To Jason

-I would love it if there was a limited format, although I know it would be difficult to develop cleanly while keeping the developer's "simple to use" sensibilities in the game. I think that Championships (or bigger tournament series if Ubi is thinking about them) should develop some system of sideboarding, or being able to switch decks similar to fighting game tournaments allow players to pick new characters between games depending on circumstances. There should be some element of adaptability at higher level play, since the play-style of your deck is set once you choose it.

-Features are getting better, especially with implementation of wildcards. If there is going to be focus on tournament level play, I would like to see some rewards (maybe like MTGO's QP system) for doing well in Jackpots or winning swisses. There should also be some intermediate level of play other than either playing ladder/swiss/JP and World Championship. Also swisses should be run daily.

-Prize support should be commensurate with how large the player base is. Obviously the more players the better, but if you could emulate MtG's "Play the game, see the world" model of pro level play, that would be sweet, especially since DoC is already an international community.

-I still think that there should be real life qualifiers for Big Events at the international gaming conventions, however letting randoms get a chance at the World Championship seems like it is disenfranchising several high level players. Maybe having nationals at gaming conventions where the top seeded 8 players from each country are invited and then 8 are pulled from a convention tournament would still allow Ubi to promote the game to new players at conventions without alienating each country's most competitive players.





Sometimes being 1st or 2nd turn is almost certain loosing a game itself. Would like to offer a better idea, but don't have one. :-/

All this text doesn't mean that the game is bad, it mean that there are already great things implemented, but there are some obvious must places to go soon :-)
I definitely think that knowing whether you are on the play or draw when deciding to mulligan should be implemented.

goodjob666
10-05-2013, 12:34 AM
how about rules that are impossible to track or rules that are only applied to specific individuals.
you cant take this tournament seriously

AscendoO
10-05-2013, 10:28 AM
One thing I think this game needs for being more competetive is some sort of advanced lobby system where you have options like:

Best of 1/3/5/whatever, games start immediately after each other so noone has to chance to change his deck(I heard there were some problems with this issue this year)

Who goes first/second and whether that changes in between the matches(Player 1 first game first turn, Player 2 second game first turn etc.)

Caster/Spectator slots

I cant think of more right now but Im sure there is still some stuff :)

Milky97
10-07-2013, 09:41 AM
What format would you like to see future world championships use?
What features do we absolutely need to see implemented into the game?
What kind of prizes would you like to see?
If you had a complete control over the future of competitive Duel of Champions, what would you do?

Your feedback is crucial so that we can input your desires into our plans moving forward. Thanks in advance everyone :)
I do think that there should be tournements at events like gamescom or other gaming events, just to get people excited about it and get the game promoted. However I also agree with the OP, so they probally shouldn't be direct qualifiers for the world championships. So rather do other (small) tournements there and hold the wc qualies completly online (most in EU time and then some in different time zones i'd guess).
In terms of eSport the spectator mode and a replay watch mode is crucial. I'd also like to see chat channels, like in Starcraft:Broodwar or Warcraft 3, maybe if there was even a way to use them while ingame, so you could chat while waiting for your opponent, if he needs a bit longer.
/
I'd like to see a regular team/clan league or in general more tournements would be pretty nice, because you also have the oppurtunity to give ingame prizes which is always a good thing as you can make tournements somewhat attractive, while not having to crank you real money.
However the most important thing for this game to improve a lot is the balance fixing (imo it's been done quite decently so far) and the bug fixing (which is horrible tbh).

Ipwnfour
10-07-2013, 02:17 PM
Very long post
Totally agree. I have told pretty much the same things you've written BEFORE Road2Paris was announced. I had contact with one of the organizers and gave feedback as to what should have been changed. Back then I already predicteded (negative) reactions which we've seen for the past months. They said the format was final. The only thing I think they changed after my feedback, was raising the minimum amount of games for the online quaifier from 25 to 50, although 100 would have been better if the format would remain the same.


Yes this was more like championship for people who live near some game event not world championship.
You've hit the nail on the head!

Le.Rancord
10-07-2013, 03:20 PM
Online Qualifyers:
- Maybee open a special Ladder just for the qualifyer, a bit like a jp but just for one month. Then you would be sure to play tournament players. Only players that passed certain ELO can join that queue. ELO limit only for joining, since u will never meet someone who is not competing there. And Monthly tourney double elimination, and tighter plan with coverage.

I think the ladder part was a bit weird, but whoever fought through elimnation did a good job, along with the luck u allways need to win something in a TCG. Its hard for me to judge the offline part, since often there was not as much competition

Offline Qualifyers are a bit difficult because of the avilabillity. Id suggest that u like got 32 ppl for monthly final. 28 qualify from the tourney ladder, and 4 from offline events to take part in it, and the 4 best are in, same for the 2nd month.

The Monthly final would be a bit bigger though, and might be a logisitc thing, but I see that in other gmaes as well, so why not here :)

trupiciel
10-07-2013, 03:27 PM
I just wanted to point out that out of those 8 players 2 are from Poland :D

SpatulaOfDoom
10-07-2013, 04:00 PM
What format would you like to see future world championships use?
What features do we absolutely need to see implemented into the game?
What kind of prizes would you like to see?
If you had a complete control over the future of competitive Duel of Champions, what would you do?



1) Something similar to what Enclase has mentioned, with all qualifiers online, or at least only one offline qualifier per region. I also approve of the suggestion of a separate "jackpot"-style ladder, where the top ELO players from this ladder are then invited to the qualifiers, where they play in tournament format.

2) Draft mode, or, as Enclase suggests, enabling all card access for all players in the qualifiers and world championship.

3) Anything from Seals/Gold to RL cash. Player-created tournaments (via forums, local LANs, or otherwise) should request approval for and be granted Seals as prizes for top 3 participants. Tournaments created by the DOC team at Ubisoft should have cash prizes to entice the best players to participate.

4) Expand the team. For sure, the team at DOC has been doing great work, but there needs to be a much greater team presence in Tech Support, Communication, Marketing, and Customer Service. Jason, what you and Aza do for the community is pretty amazing, but this game cannot realize it's full potential without additions to the team. If this team expansion is not plausible, I would still try hard to create a form of draft mode, and I would work to create a foundation for this game on Twitch by doing more to feature key streamers (Enclase, CuCu99, Matrix_Disc) on the website or in the launcher, as this may be one of the biggest potential marketing platforms for the game on a limited marketing budget.

Ipwnfour
10-16-2013, 01:17 PM
One thing that hasn't been mentioned before, but what needs to be changed urgently: game/play rules need to be more professional! This prevents matches where the outcome is already known before they have been played (like final of July Online Qualifiers: Dhamiria mill vs. Adar Malik).

Here are some rules that would definitely improve any tournament's professionality:


Bo1 needs to be expelled


Bo5 is needed earlier than just (semi-)finals


more fair distribution of who starts 1st/2nd. For example: first game random - 2nd game vice versa - last game random (this should have been used a long time ago, in any tournaments!)


NO COMPLETE DECK LOCKS. There are 4 formats 'allowed':
a) No locks at all (player can pick any deck and change any cards before or between games)

b) Hero lock (player can change any cards before or between games, except the hero)

c) Deck lock + Side board (player can change main deck with cards from side deck before or between games)

d) Multiple deck variations (player submits 2 or more decks which he may choose to play)