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View Full Version : Flatspins.. how to react??



thompet03
03-23-2004, 08:38 AM
Hi!

Sorry maybe this was already ask often but:

I never succeed in getting out of a flatspin with the ta152...

Maybe I´m just to dump... so i need someone who can show me or teach me what to do....

Maybe someone can upload or mail me a track where i can see what to do against these flatspins....

Please i need help.. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

thompet03
03-23-2004, 08:38 AM
Hi!

Sorry maybe this was already ask often but:

I never succeed in getting out of a flatspin with the ta152...

Maybe I´m just to dump... so i need someone who can show me or teach me what to do....

Maybe someone can upload or mail me a track where i can see what to do against these flatspins....

Please i need help.. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

TgD Thunderbolt56
03-23-2004, 08:52 AM
Your only hope it to have enough altitude and keep fighting it after you cut your throttle. sometimes it will straighten out.

Otherwise...bail http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/52.gif



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gates123
03-23-2004, 09:16 AM
I love this bird, just dont get in a turnfight with a spit. You know what I do that works when I get in spins is dump flaps to landing and also lower gear while engine is pinned full throttle, also full opposite rudder.....seems to get me out of situation over 500m otherwise your kinda screwed. Just remember to retract your flaps REAL quick once recovery takes place otherwise you'll get them jammed.

Zen--
03-23-2004, 09:59 AM
Look at the tracks from BBB-Hyperion and CrazyIvan...the link is down there where it says 'Tracks'

-Zen-
Tracks (http://209.163.146.67/tracks)

GvSAP_Dart
03-23-2004, 10:46 AM
I shriek like a girl and wave my hands around wildly.

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

This technique actually works some times, as I cut throttle and hope it goes nose down at some point.

____________________________________
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rpkiller
03-23-2004, 12:44 PM
Hitting Ctrl+E usually works.
(if you're offline press A and let the autopilot recover, then carry on)...

rp

GAU-8
03-23-2004, 12:50 PM
if you ever get a flat spin...do it at high alt...(not like you got a choice)

1. chop throttle
2.apply full flaps
3.lower landing gear
4.deploy airbrakes if possible
5.rudder in opposite direction of spin
6.stick in opposite direction of spin, and slowly move it to forward position (dive)
7. once in a dive. get speed, then bring everything up.. pull up smoothly.

i flat spin P-63, and yak9K left and right.. this gets me out everytime unless i have low alt

(sometimes if the situation is right (and it is very rare), its better to hold stick TOWARD direction of spin for just a moment..then push forward on it)

Rab03
03-23-2004, 01:35 PM
if you ever get to flat spin,
you are free to

Panic!!! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/52.gif

Just kidding. I think I never got out of a flat spin (it had happened to me only in I-16 though). GAU-8 definitely gave a detailed procedure, but flat spins are (in real life) unrecoverable. If you are any less than 2000m, bail out.

mike_espo
03-23-2004, 02:06 PM
In the CR.42, which spins often..!!??? Just throttle back to zero, apply opposite rudder in that order. If u have sufficent alt, then you will recover. if not, ..

http://www.flying-tigers.net/caccia%20WW%20II/g50.jpg

plumps_
03-23-2004, 02:06 PM
It's much harder to recover from flat spins in AEP than it used to be in former versions. In 1.22 I could spin a P-47 from 5000 m all the way down to 650 m and still recover safely (see NTRK) (http://home.arcor.de/rayluck/sturmovik/P47landing-plumps.zip). I can't do that anymore in AEP. Now the aircraft keep turning around the longitudinal axis even when the nose points down.

Nevertheless often it's still possible to recover if you're high enough; here are two tracks for FBAEP 2.0 (http://home.arcor.de/rayluck/sturmovik/FB20-TA152spin.zip) where I recover a TA-152 from some clockwise and counterclockwise spins.

-----------------------------------
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LEXX_Luthor
03-23-2004, 02:33 PM
mike do you ever have to cut engine off in the 42? I am finding it brings me right out after another spin or two around.

__________________
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:
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Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Enofinu
03-23-2004, 02:35 PM
how to reach on flat spins.. well, u could learn to fly first http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

flyingskid2
03-23-2004, 02:40 PM
clarification please. what is opposite rudder? if i'm spinning clockwise (as seen from above) is opposite rudder the left or the right?

crazyivan1970
03-23-2004, 03:05 PM
Moving to General Discussion, please continue there.

V!
Regards,

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Spinne_3.-JG51
03-23-2004, 03:54 PM
Opposite rudder means that if you're spinning clockwise(as seen from above), you apply full left rudder, and vice-verse. The Ta-152 does have a nasty flatspin.

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Snow_Wolf_
03-23-2004, 05:14 PM
K first thing DON'T PANIC IT NOT THE END OF THE WORLD JUST YET!!!!!! (You can always bail out)

Now Drop flaps

Don't push or pull the stick (don;t pull it until you regain control of the plane)

Apply opposite rudder pressure
(if you spinning clockwise put rudder pressure counter clockwise)

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TheAirMarshal
03-23-2004, 05:33 PM
The most effective method to recover from a spin involves doing two things:

1)Apply rudder in opposite direction to the direction of spin.

2)Push the stick full forwards, then pull back to the centre, push it forwards again, back to centre. Repeat this process (rapidly) until the spin recovers.

Once out of the spin, apply maximum power and keep your nose down to get the airspeed up again.

mike_espo
03-23-2004, 07:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
mike do you ever have to cut engine off in the 42? I am finding it brings me right out after another spin or two around.

__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish _"Gladiator"_ listed as _J8A_ _...in Aces Expansion Pack_

_"You will still have FB , you will lose _nothing"__ ~WUAF_Badsight
_"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..."_ ~Bearcat99
_"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age"_ ~ElAurens
:
_"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore_!_"_ ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This I-153 was on my tail and could not shake him. I used my Bread and Butter move, the Barrell roll and I yanked too hard on the stick, a vicious spin which turned flat in no time. Tried opp rudder and no good, so after half a km, I turned off the engine and continued opp rudder and after another km, she recovered. Just above the ground. He still got me later...lol

http://www.flying-tigers.net/caccia%20WW%20II/g50.jpg

03-23-2004, 07:26 PM
You have to understand what causes the often fatal flat spin. Flat spin is usually developed during a hard turn with heavy rudder input. Consequentially, such a move is pretty dangerous even with the "easy-flyer" planes.

Stalling while giving the plane sharp rudder kick is THE way to enter a flat spin, since once the normal airflow is lost over the wings and the yaw spins the plane, it's very hard to predict the plane's behaviour - the air isn't flowing across the wing/tail/elevators/airframe the way it's supposed to and anything can happen.

What usually happens is, as the plane is compelled to stall and start a normal spin, the loss of airflow destabilizes plane in all axises and the torque force kicks in.

Now, as the plane is gaining a high AoA, compelled to stall, losing good airflow over the wings and flight controls, you add in the increasing effect of the torque force, and then, add in a rudder input to the same direction the torque is working! - Bam! Just like that it starts a flat spin.

That means, in planes with clockwise rotating props that veer left during takeoff, flat spins will usually develop while doing a hard left turn.

Try imagine what would happen when you apply hard rudder to the same direction the plane is veering during take off - it would ground loop with a wild left swerve. Flat spins are almost exactly like that - it's perpetual ground looping in the air.

The plane sits up with an almost nose-above-horizion attitude which denies you of gaining speed, and leaves you in a perpetual state of stall with the torque force spinning the plane around its yaw axis, as it falls down.

Thus, once the flat spin develops, the top two priorities are:

1) bring the nose of the plane down so it directly points at the direction it is falling

2) stop the spinning


In most cases, the loss of airflow renders the flight controls completely unresponsive in flat spins. Pushing the stick forward results in nothing, and your plane usually resists your urge to point the nose downwards.

Therefore, the method of recovering from flat spins involves a drastic but effective measure, which has a high probability of forcing the plane out of its state.

Like some people said - cut the engine.

Turn it off. Even at idle state, your engine produces certain amounts of torque force - we need to get rid of it as much as we can if we have to get out of flat spins.

Kick rudder to the opposite direction of the spin, and push stick forward for elevator input without any aileron input. With the engine out of the way, your plane now has no "outside influence" to effect how it reacts during a free-fall, and your rudder/stick input is not neutered by the engine.

Slowly the plane will respond. As it's nose comes down, normal airflow is somewhat regained, and then, the spin will stop, too.

..

[This message was edited by Kweassa1 on Tue March 23 2004 at 06:37 PM.]

p1ngu666
03-23-2004, 07:42 PM
all these methods work, not tried gear tho
often i get stuck in \ angle http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
sometimes u gotta rudder with the spin to get enuff speed also, then against it to correct

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DONB3397
03-23-2004, 08:31 PM
Good analysis, Kweassa1. It's only happened twice to me, both in a P-47D, under exactly the conditions you described. Cutting the engine didn't make sense to me the first time, and I lost it. The second time, I cut the engine and applied rudder. Then, probably in desperation, I pulled back the stick...and the plane fell into a standard spin. Does that make sense to you, or was it unrelated? Later, I tried to practice the maneuver but couldn't get a true flat spin to test it.

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plumps_
03-23-2004, 09:21 PM
In my experience cutting the engine won't help in the Ta-152. In fact I need to have the engine running so I can play with the throttle to recover the plane.

-----------------------------------
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Kampagne für IL-2 1.2: I-16 - Kampf im Kaukasus (Deutsch) (http://home.arcor.de/rayluck/sturmovik/kampagne.html)

gorillasika
03-24-2004, 03:57 AM
Ok, now that we know (?) how to get out of the flatspins... how do you get out of an inverted flatspin? It's a dead sentence to me when it happens (I know I should try to learn to fly better not to enter one).

lindyman
03-24-2004, 04:20 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by gorillasika:
Ok, now that we know (?) how to get out of the flatspins... how do you get out of an inverted flatspin? It's a dead sentence to me when it happens (I know I should try to learn to fly better not to enter one).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have only tried in a few planes in AEP, and in those I have either not been able to get into an inverted flatspin, or have been able to recover reasonably easily. However, that may not at all be the case for all aircraft. I know that for some RL aircraft, inverted flatspins are unrecoverable. For some, (for example Yak-52) you need engine power to recover (and if your engine cuts out while there, you're dead.)

The techniques I've tried successfully are the same (but inverted, of course) from normal spin recover. First neutralise the stick. Apply full rudder in opposite direction. Pull the stick towards you, to lower the nose. Apply aileron in the direction of the spin. If this doesn't do it, apply throttle. If all works well, you'll get to a normal inverted spin, from which you can continue recovery. Otherwise, CTRL-E.
_
/Bjorn.

gorillasika
03-24-2004, 04:41 AM
Ok, I don't have AEP yet, but in FB been killed couple of times in inverted flatspin.

Reminds me of a story which my friend told me about his friend (or something).
This friend (a Finn) was in a military flight school in St. Petersburg where they flew all kinds of Russian trainers.
The Russians told him a story about an American, who visited there once. One pilot took him for a flight and they were just cruising around or doing all kinds of movements. They were flying over the clouds and suddenly the Russian said rather embarassed that he was lost. "But no problem, let me check where we are". He then put the plane in to an inverted flatspin, and they fell down, down and the American started to look little scary. They fell through the clouds and under them the ground came visible. "Now I know where we are!" said the Russian and took the plane under control again.
This same guy also said that the Russian pilots were all the time drinking vodka and even flew drunk, so you can believe them stories or take them with a grain of salt.
Also during Soviet Union there always every morning came a train full of gasoline to the school, so they had it plenty, but when the SU fell the trains suddenly started to come more rarely. So they had to concentrate more on drinking http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif