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View Full Version : Can of worms. Please open and vote :)



Scragbat
06-12-2004, 08:09 AM

Scragbat
06-12-2004, 08:09 AM

MEGILE
06-12-2004, 08:14 AM
I fly the P-47 Jug, but I would tend to say T'n'B requires more skill http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
All I do is climb to 8,000M and dive on the unsuspecting bandit.. no skill whatsoever.. just the patience of a saint.


Countdown to 1337 post count = P minus 167

Eagle_361st
06-12-2004, 08:19 AM
Really it takes alot of the same skills, while being a good TnB pilot takes alot of skill, it equally takes alot of skill to BnZ or E fight. Being able to properly manuever at high speeds and not give up your advantage.

~S!
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DeBaer.534
06-12-2004, 08:34 AM
hello scragbat (is it possible i have met you in combat earlier that day?)
i think t'n'b is easier, at least that was my first "tactic" when i began flight sims (ok these were the days when a plane at 100 meters were 4 pixels)
but i dont think bnz requires more skill. its just coming in fast, shooting, and climb away again, most likely on enemies that are on their beginning of gaining altitude. A good balance of both takes skill, i mean, recognizing when you get a good shot with few sharp turns, or wether you better climb away.

Scragbat
06-12-2004, 09:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DeBaer.534:
hello scragbat (is it possible i have met you in combat earlier that day?)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you are known online as DeBaer.99, then yes. Saw you online at UK-Dedicated last night.
Had a great game http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Results so far (at time of checking)...
B'n'Z with 33% closely followed by 'Stupid poll, shut up Scragbat' at 25% http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif

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DeBaer.534
06-12-2004, 09:07 AM
yes, im always DeBaer(.XXX)
it was really a good game, fun to fly.
~S~

Athosd
06-12-2004, 09:35 AM
TnB certainly is harder work - and skill is required to get the best turn performance out of your ride. Most targets are also engaged with a good deal of deflection and under high G load.
BnZ on the other hand is more like sniping. Takes longer to set up an attack which is usually delivered with little or no deflection at near one G - if you know what you're doing anyway (which is the where the skill comes in).

I dabble in both styles depending on my ride - but have never pursued the art of the perfect "Bat turn" - so generally prefer BnZ.

Salute

Athos

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LubricatedGoat
06-12-2004, 09:46 AM
Consider this from Robert Johnson first sighting of a Spitfire 9B (From his book "Thunderbolt!"):

"I opened the throttle full and the Thunderbolt forged ahead. A moment later exhaust smoke poured from the Spit as the pilot came after me. He couldn't make it; the big Jug had a definite speed advantage. I grinned happily; I'd heard so much about this airplane that I really wanted to show the Thunderbolt to her pilot. The Jug kept pulling away from the Spitfire; suddenly I hauled back on the stick and lifted the nose. The Thunderbolt zoomed upward, soaring into the cloud-flecked sky. I looked out and back; the Spit was straining to match me, and barely able to hold his position.

"But my advantage was only the zoom--once in steady climb, he had me. I gaped as smoke poured from the exhausts and the Spitfire shot past me as if I were standing still. Could that plane CLIMB! He tore upward in a climb I couldn't match with the Jug. Now it was his turn; the broad elliptical wings rolled, swung around, and the Spit screamed in, hell-bent on chewing me up.

"This was going to be fun. I knew he could turn inside the heavy Thunderbolt; if I attempted to hold a tight turn, the Spitfire would slip right inside me. I knew also, that he could easily outclimb my fighter. I stayed out of those sucker traps. First rule in this kind of fight: don't fight the way your opponent fights best. No sharp turns; don't climb; keep him at your own level.

"We were at 5,000 feet, the Spitfire skidding around hard and coming in on my tail. No use turning; he'd whip right inside me as if I were a truck loaded with cement, and snap out in firing position. Well, I had a few tricks too. The P-47 was faster, and I threw the ship into a roll. Right here I had him. The Jug could outroll any plane in the air, bar none. With my speed, roll was my only advantage, and I made full use of the manner in which the Thunderbolt could roll. I kicked the Jug into a wicked left roll, horizon spinning crazily, once, twice, into a third. As he turned to the left to follow, I tramped down on the right rudder, banged the stick over to the right. Around and around we went, left, right, left, right. I could whip through better than two rolls before the Spitfire even completed his first. And this killed his ability to turn inside me. I refused to turn. Every time he tried to follow me in a roll, I flashed away to the opposite side, opening the gap between our planes.

"Then I played the trump. The Spitfire was clawing wildly through the air, trying to follow me in a roll, when I dropped the nose. The Thunderbolt howled and ran for earth. Barely had the Spitfire started to follow--and I was a long way ahead of him by now--when I jerked back on the stick and threw the Jug into a zoom climb. In a straight or climbing turn, the British ship had the advantage. But coming out of a dive, there's not a British or German fighter than can come close to a Thunderbolt rushing upward in a zoom. Before the Spit pilot knew what had happened, I was high above him, and the Thunderbolt hammering around. And that was it--in the next few moments the Spitfire flier was amazed to see a less-maneuverable slower-climbing Thunderbolt rushing straight at him, eight guns pointing at his cockpit."

THAT's what I think takes skill: Being able to overcome your opponent in ANY plane, in ANY situation, simply by playing on your strengths and his weaknesses. Modifying TnB and BnZ tactics to suit your ship. Dogfighting in a Jug, or busting out of the clouds in a Zero to pounce on some unsuspecting, more manueverable plane.

The Goat

Zen--
06-12-2004, 09:47 AM
E fighting is the most difficult style, though it is one that is often never even acknowdged as existing.

-Zen-

SeaFireLIV
06-12-2004, 09:49 AM
Well, for me B&Z appears to take more skill, but perhaps that`s becuase I`m not much of a B&Z flyer. However, let`s look at both sides:

B&Z:

1.Requires patience (for some that`s a skill in itself).

2.Good aiming abilities.

2a.Knowing EXACTLY when to open fire while in the dive and hitting.

3. Judging angle of attack and `victims` position and awareness before you go in.

4.Resisting the temptaion to get involved in a Turn fight.

5. Good situational awareness required.

6. Good pilots will not just B&Z, depending on their situation.

Turn `n` burn:

1. Less patience requiired.

2. Good aiming abilities.

3. Good judgement of angle of attack necessary, but new pilots can sometimes get away with `spray and pray`.

4. Good turn pilots will know not just about turning, but how to use flaps, power, pitch to gain the best solution.

5. Good situational awareness required.

6. They will not just turn, depending on situation.

I think B&Zers just win on the difficulty. I`ve been attacked many times by the B&Zers but very few actually successfully hit me . The good ones can hit me on every dive until I fall to bits.

Anyway, I`m sure there are plenty of other valid opinions out there.

SeaFireLIV...


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Tully__
06-12-2004, 10:06 AM
I don't know about skill, but BnZ requires more learning. The natural inclination of most pilots seems to be to close & shoot ASAP. This leads to TnB fights. While actually hitting a target in this sort of fight requires some knowledge of lead shooting, this skill is as much required in BnZ (if not more so).

What makes BnZ harder is not the shooting, but the understanding of relative energy states and the consequences of not applying that understanding correctly.

Characterising as either/or is oversimplifying anyway. Good pilots energy fight at all times. If you have a slow plane that turns well, it is to your advantage to encourage the other pilot to turn, he will waste energy and put you in a position where you can out manouvre him. On the other hand if you're flying something fast that scrubs speed quickly in tight or sustained turns, your best bet is to try to get your opponenet to try to chase you in a zoom climb where he is at a disadvantage.

Please remember that "slow" and "fast", "good turner" and "poor turner" should be measured reletive to your current opponent, not to aircraft in general http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

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DeerHunterUK
06-12-2004, 10:09 AM
I agree with Seafire but the problem with being a "Turn 'n' Burn" pilot as I am is the fact that you're constantly having to watch the sky above to see if that small dot that is the "Boom 'n' Zoomer" is getting ready come screaming down on you at any second.
Both styles of fighting require skill, however they require a different skill from eachother. Part of the fun for me is watching the aircraft that's on my tail chasing me hard and lose the 'E' battle then stall and spin helplessly into the ground.

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nearmiss
06-12-2004, 10:18 AM
B & Z takes a lot more patience and accuracy.

T & B takes more aggressive attack with a lot of stick.

So...T & B very good for reflex fighters, boom & zoom better for the steady hand.

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Jetbuff
06-12-2004, 01:24 PM
Depends what you mean by "skill"... if it's raw plane handling and BFM skills then TnB would be it; if, OTOH, you mean general combat skills like SA/E-management then BnZ takes the cake.

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RedDeth
06-12-2004, 03:45 PM
pilots in world war two didnt know what t an b or b an z or even energy fighting was. they just knew how to best fly THEIR individual plane and what NOT to do in it.

so it depends what plane your in as to how to fly it . its not about t an b or b an z. its about the plane your in.

you always get the idiot in a yak3 chasing a jug or fw190 saying hey chicken dont run away!!!

and you also always get the moron in a dora saying hey yak get off the deck and come up and fight~!!

people who tell other people to fly a plane opposite the way it should be flown crack me up.

however the pilot flying the yak3 that stays up at 5 to 6k and b an zs the other planes is the smart guy.

and the dora guy that dives down 5k and jumps on a yaks six cuts his throttle hits the flaps and trims out his plane and sometimes kills his engine to stay on a yaks six and get a bead on him is the talented guy too.

in other words if you b an z or t an b your not flying like an ace. you have to be able to do it all in all planes.

and finally id like to say this thread is a dead horse

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WUAF_Badsight
06-12-2004, 03:52 PM
TnB is like Checkers

BnZ is like chess


i find that proper Efighting , where you turn with bandits but maintain E to get the advantage to be the most skillfull style of Air Combat

.
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Atomic_Marten
06-12-2004, 05:00 PM
Nice worms... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif
They require equal ammount of skill.

JG14_Josf
06-12-2004, 05:24 PM
Zen took my answer already. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

If the game models dive acceleration with more refinement then energy fighting will become more prevalent.

The way things were modeled in the game before the last patch would require that Robert S. Johnson in the P-47 vs Spitfire fight to fly at speeds higher than the Spitfires safe Vmax before the P-47 could gain any energy advantage.

I have not tested dive acceleration in the current patch.

If the game did change to allow the P-47 to gain in energy at speeds slower than the Spitfires V max then the P-47 will have a larger area in the flight envelope to exploit such an adantage. Energy fighting will then be more effective for the P-47. Energy fighting will be more effective for any plane with an area of the envelope where energy gains are possible.

When no such energy gains are possible then such a plane lacking an energy gaining advantage (which usually has a turn performance dissadvantage) will be effective only as a Hit and run plane (pilot skills being equal).

It is no wonder that energy fighting is less than a commonly used term.

Korolov
06-12-2004, 05:33 PM
Hmm, I'm inclined to think that BnZ requires more ability than TnB. TnB can be readily applied at all times, but BnZ requires careful management, awareness and patience.

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Maj_Death
06-12-2004, 05:54 PM
They are about equal. T&B requires good SA and good energy management. B&Z requires good SA and good stalking ability.

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ASM 1
06-12-2004, 06:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MEGILE:
I fly the P-47 Jug, but I would tend to say T'n'B requires more skill http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
All I do is climb to 8,000M and dive on the unsuspecting bandit.. no skill whatsoever.. just the patience of a saint.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/351.gif Although I fly the TA152, Climb to 11000m or thereabouts, switch GM-1 on (god I love that stuff) and set prop pitch low - one 800+ kmh dive later, bandit is in little bits http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif... all going well... LOL

TNB is about the same skill-level, if not slightly more. Anybody who attempts it in a TA wants their head read http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif although some manage it.....

S!

Andrew

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WOLFMondo
06-12-2004, 06:33 PM
Anyone can get in a plane and TnB but it takes time and patience to learn BnZ.

However I think to be a good TnB pilot and survive furballs takes allot of practice and a good knowledge of your ride and its limits.

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VFA-195 Snacky
06-12-2004, 07:13 PM
To be a good pilot you need a good wingman. Improvise, overcome, adapt.

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Arms1
06-12-2004, 07:52 PM
guess it depends upon which a/c you are flying at the time

SUPERAEREO
06-12-2004, 08:15 PM
TnB when fought in a protracted combat needs quite a bit of skill because you will by then find yourself flying low and at near-stall speeds.

Some might counter that a skilled pilot would never find himself in such a situation but records and memoires of RL aces tell us otherwise, since being able to dictate the terms of a combat episode was often a luxury and not the norm.

BnZ does require good aim and patience in setting up your attack, but can easily be performed by even a mediocre pilot if he cna shoot straight and has a good sense of time...

Maybe we could say that TnB requires a good pilot and BnZ needs a good warrior...

S!



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patch_adams
06-12-2004, 08:48 PM
Funny, I bet people have the propensity to claim that their own style of fighting requires more skill. A good pilot can use both styles effectively. A master or "ace" is a pilot that can turn a disadvantaged fight into one where he eventually turns the tables and wins.

Statements like, "anyone can tnb" or "anyone can bnz" make me laugh because while true, not everyone can be successful at bnz or tnb. And if you limit yourself to only one of these styles, you're a poor pilot period.

Beirut
06-12-2004, 09:00 PM
I had a guy blast me for boomin' & zoomin' online. He said "anybody can B&Z!"

I just wrote back that anybody can Turn & Burn.

Lots of people tend to gravitate towards arcade planes and then T&B in a wild pack like a bunch of ***** bumblebees. I like to get up high and go bee hunting. And when they get mad at me for diving on them, I just remind them that flying is three-dimensional. If they want to stay on the ground, get a tank sim.

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SithSpeeder
06-12-2004, 09:28 PM
I disagree, Badsight.

T&B is more like speed chess (5 minute chess, all tricks, sometimes being very unorthodox to throw off the opponent, etc.)

B&Z is more like regular chess (slow, deliberate, calculating).

I'd say they require about the same amount of skill (just different) and this is a stupid poll http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif

S!

* _54th_Speeder *

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Scragbat
06-13-2004, 05:33 AM
To be precise SithSpeeder 24% stupid http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif

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Bearcat99
06-13-2004, 10:07 PM
Id have to go with the B&Z. IMO the ideal B&Z is a one pass deal... after that first pass your victim should be incapable or barely capable of defending himself if not spiraling down to the ground on flames. For me it usually takes at least 3 passes....LOL.

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wayno7777
06-13-2004, 10:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LubricatedGoat:
Consider this from Robert Johnson first sighting of a Spitfire 9B (From his book "Thunderbolt!"):

THAT's what I think takes skill: Being able to overcome your opponent in ANY plane, in ANY situation, simply by playing on your strengths and his weaknesses. Modifying TnB and BnZ tactics to suit your ship. Dogfighting in a Jug, or busting out of the clouds in a Zero to pounce on some unsuspecting, more manueverable plane.

The Goat<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OT. Goat, later on Bob says after they got the paddle-bladed props He left the Spit behind for good inthe whole climb. TnB takes a bit more skill.

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VOL_Hans
06-13-2004, 10:51 PM
It depends.

It sometimes takes some skill, or atleast some tricks up your sleave to get a BnZ fighter to come down and play. Had to do that with 109G-2 and 190A's in my P-39.

BnZ requires a cross between agressiveness and hunters skill. It also takes some self control to keep out of a TnB fight.

I would say that over all, BnZ takes more skill. TnB is simply holding the stick in your stomach once the fight starts.

BnZ is more about situational awareness, skill in pushing your plane to the limits, and staying one step ahead in the mental game over your enemy.

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Mysticpuma2003
06-14-2004, 12:51 AM
B'n'Z. Takes patience, and ability to make a shot count at 850 in a dive. P-47 be the daddy of doom at B'n'Z. Love it!

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carguy_
06-14-2004, 02:57 AM
I`m doing 650km/h and I take up a LaGG in a hard yoyo turn,busting up my teammate.Nothing than this is harder imo.

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Hoarmurath
06-14-2004, 04:34 AM
dogfight is the easy part of air combat.level Bombing is the really hard part.

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Lixma
06-14-2004, 04:46 AM
I use a simple formula.

You shoot me down using B 'n' Z tactics = you are a cheating, yellow bellied, animal torturing, left handed communist with questionable parentage.

You shoot me down using Turn 'n' Burn tactics = you are a cheating, yellow bellied, animal torturing, left handed communist with questionable parentage.

As you can see, i do not discriminate either way.

HellToupee
06-14-2004, 05:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by wayno7777:
OT. Goat, later on Bob says after they got the paddle-bladed props He left the Spit behind for good inthe whole climb. TnB takes a bit more skill.

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<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The IXb or a later Spitfire, i would doubt paddle props allowed the jug to outclimb the spits which close to that of k4 :P

Anyway i think tnb requires more aircraft handling skill, you must be able to stick with your opponent and not have him end up on your tail.

BnZ unless someone else comes along you are free to take your time with your advantage you are in no danger from your opponent, it maybe difficult if he evades when you make a pass, but if he is unaware it is very easy to land many hits from above, especially if using 20mm cannons.

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Atomic_Marten
06-14-2004, 05:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by patch_adams:
Funny, I bet people have the propensity to claim that their own style of fighting requires more skill. A good pilot can use both styles effectively. A master or "ace" is a pilot that can turn a disadvantaged fight into one where he eventually turns the tables and wins.

Statements like, "anyone can tnb" or "anyone can bnz" make me laugh because while true, not everyone can be successful at bnz or tnb. And if you limit yourself to only one of these styles, you're a poor pilot period.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I only could wish that I post my answer this way.

True.

Fehler
06-14-2004, 05:23 AM
Energy fighting is what it's all about.

Learning to turn the tables and make a guy fight in a way his plane does not have the advantage is the essence of the energy fighter.

There are simple myths about some of the planes in this game. "Never turn fight a spit in a 190." Hogwash. You can turn fight a spit, you just have to know when to yo-yo, when to engage, when to disengage.

Knowing what your opponant's plane can do and what you can do is energy fighting. Anyone that restricts himself to typical styles is eventually going to be a target drone.

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KG26_Oranje
06-14-2004, 05:34 AM
U ask for it !!!
Vote for last option hehehehe.
Buht u forgot to give bomberpilots a option , we get fighters on our tail all the time.
I ges its need more skill to levelbombing , lets say on 4500 alt and avoid fighter atacks.
For the rest i cant speak as fighter pilot becose i`m flying only bombers online/offline.

S! I/KG26_Oranje

cmndrbob
06-14-2004, 11:09 AM
I naturally want to turn fight, I do well in a 109 or spit, I personally find it harder to zoom and boom. So i have been practicing hard in p-38's, Jugs and 190's. The Fw is the hardest for me. In the BnZ planes I always give in to turning at some point and quickley get ventilated. Need more training.

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