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View Full Version : Would you say that the Tyranny of King W is an overall better story than AC III?



Assassin_M
09-01-2013, 10:40 PM
So i replayed ToKW recently..

AC III`s story is pretty solid to me for a lot of reasons, but it had problems with Pacing, rushing and missing so many great opportunities. It`s a 15-20 hour story including cutscenes.

Tyranny of King Washington on the other had 7-9 hours of story, a solid beginning, middle and end with, imo, not as much pacing problems as AC III. It had a great main villain in George Washington and that made it a more focused and driven narrative.

So, imo..i`d say that despite AC III`s ambiguity and overall captivating tale, the Tyranny had a more focused journey and overall better storyline..

Please discard price, gameplay hiccups( like AI), glitches and length when stating why you voted, this is solely a narrative viewpoint..

Megas_Doux
09-01-2013, 10:46 PM
I find it better told, but not necessarily "better".

Shahkulu101
09-01-2013, 10:46 PM
Nah...I liked it but felt the story was a bit too wacky and one dimensional. It may have had better pacing and is overrall more coherent but I didn't find the narrative captivating enough. I didn't really have a sense of motavation to continue the story but to gain new powers and go on wacky sky journeys -- nothing wrong with that though.

Assassin_M
09-01-2013, 10:47 PM
I find it better told, but not necessarily "better".
The way a story is told can make it overall better for people...

Look at AC II and ACB...

adventurewomen
09-01-2013, 10:49 PM
I enjoyed ToKW the most because the links to my Mohawk tribe heritage, I loved every single moment of the story and game. It's hard to compare AC3 & ToKW since they are two different games stories and the fact that ToKW is set after AC3 it's hard to compare. I did enjoy AC3, I just can't compare them. ToKW for me is on another level that I deeply have respect for as the story pulled my heartstrings.

silvermercy
09-01-2013, 10:54 PM
After playing ToKW I preferred it over AC3 I think. It was more to the point, had greater focus on the Native aspect, and also the general atmosphere and ambiance was darker and, thus, more interesting.

ACfan443
09-01-2013, 10:59 PM
The ridiculous tea mumbo jumbo made the ToKW story a little odd and comical, the whole concept in general was outlandish. AC3 may have had bad pacing, but I felt its overall story was superior to that of the DLC's, so I vote no.

Megas_Doux
09-01-2013, 11:02 PM
The way a story is told can make it overall better for people...

Look at AC II and ACB...

I agree with you, it is just that Achilles and Haytham interactions with Connor take it, for me.

Assassin_M
09-01-2013, 11:03 PM
I agree with you, it is just that Achilles and Haytham interactions with Connor take it, for me.
I wish Charles Lee was the leader of the Rebels in NY instead of Jefferson :/

With Hickey, Pitcairn and Johnson all being rebels...

The interactions between Lee and Connor as Allies would`v been priceless..

adventurewomen
09-01-2013, 11:04 PM
After playing ToKW I preferred it over AC3 I think. It was more to the point, had greater focus on the Native aspect, and also the general atmosphere and ambiance was darker and, thus, more interesting.Yes this why I liked the focus on Native aspects and legends.


The ridiculous tea mumbo jumbo made the ToKW story a little odd and comical, the whole concept in general was outlandish.

You better tread carefully. Ignorance is bliss. >__>

Try not to insult, because these are scared legends to Natives and I do feel insulted by your comment.

ACfan443
09-01-2013, 11:07 PM
You better tread carefully. Ignorance is bliss. >__>

Try not to insult, because these are scared legends to Natives and I do feel insulted.

You're telling me natives drink magical tea and go on sky journeys?
That's the concept I was specifically referring to. If I'm wrong and natives do in fact gain magical powers, then please correct my ignorance.

SixKeys
09-01-2013, 11:08 PM
Good question. Storywise, AC3's biggest problem was pacing IMO, which was certainly better in ToKW. On the other hand, it also felt oddly disjointed and the end resolution was just as lacklustre as AC3's (the only difference being that AC3 was more hyped beforehand). Connor's powers weren't explained satisfactorily and the appearance of certain characters from the main story made little to no sense. Knowing how it all ended, the campfire flashbacks between Connor and Washington seem like a cheap way to stretch the tension into each new chapter. The vision they both shared wasn't explained at all and feels inconsistent with what we know about the Apple's actual powers. (It creates illusions, but can't change past events, so why was Ziio alive in the alternate timeline?)

I think overall AC3 still has a better story. Better dramatic content and better characterization. ToKW had better pacing and some impressive setpieces (like getting the powers), but as a stand-alone story it was quite confusing.

silvermercy
09-01-2013, 11:08 PM
The ridiculous tea mumbo jumbo made the ToKW story a little odd and comical, the whole concept in general was outlandish. AC3 may have had bad pacing, but I felt its overall story was superior to that of the DLC's, so I vote no.
That's not mumbo jumpo though. It's a Native American culture element. In fact, I liked that part of the story just for this well-placed "fantastical" element.

(The consultant advised against using the original idea of using stones that light up when Connor touches them and then "faints". So we got willow tree tea instead).

adventurewomen
09-01-2013, 11:10 PM
You're telling me natives drink magical tea and go on sky journeys?
That's the concept I was specifically referring to. If I'm wrong and natives do in fact gain magical powers, then please correct my ignorance.
It's Native Legends, and Legends are scared to us. We hold them dearly to our hearts.

Think before you post, next time.

silvermercy
09-01-2013, 11:11 PM
I think overall AC3 still has a better story. Better dramatic content and better characterization. ToKW had better pacing and some impressive setpieces (like getting the powers), but as a stand-alone story it was quite confusing.
As a stand-alone, no, it wouldn't be able to pull it off indeed. It needs AC3 as a prerequisite.

(Personally, I wish AC3 had followed the pacing and atmosphere of ToKW, but just kept the basic story elements).

ACfan443
09-01-2013, 11:12 PM
That's not mumbo jumpo though. It's a Native American culture element. In fact, I liked that part of the story just for this well-placed "fantastical" element.

(The consultant advised against using the original idea of using stones that light up when Connor touches them and then "faints". So we got willow tree tea instead).

I apologise for not being clear in my original post, I was specifically referring to the overall concept of magical powers


It's Native Legends, and Legends are scared to us. We hold them dearly to our hearts.

Think before you post, next time.

It was not my intention to offend, but I apologise if you felt that way.

Megas_Doux
09-01-2013, 11:13 PM
I wish Charles Lee was the leader of the Rebels in NY instead of Jefferson :/

With Hickey, Pitcairn and Johnson all being rebels...

The interactions between Lee and Connor as Allies would`v been priceless..

Exactly!

SixKeys
09-01-2013, 11:17 PM
Sacred or not, the AC mythos has always maintained the idea that magical powers do not exist. They are merely illusions created by First Civ technology that humans credited as supernatural because they didn't understand it. With that in mind, Connor's powers in ToKW make absolutely no sense. In the game's world where ALL mystical things can be explained with technology, they never explained how tea can give you super powers. So it's mumbo-jumbo within the narrative, regardless of the legends it may be based on.

silvermercy
09-01-2013, 11:19 PM
So it's mumbo-jumbo within the narrative, regardless of the legends it may be based on.
I haven't played the last part yet (no PS3 where I live now), but aren't these mythical powers in Connor's "mind"?

I-Like-Pie45
09-01-2013, 11:23 PM
No

-why did Haytham and Achillies have to die offscreen. Why couldn't we get an epic final mission where Connor teams up with the two and they all beat Washington death with sharpened sticks
-why did the devs pass up on another opportunity to use Connor's epilomonologue?
-why is William Johnson voicing Sam Adams?
-Where is Lee?
-Why did they have a whole subplot of Connor slowly being corrupted by the power only to throw all of it out the window in the end?
-why is Thomas Jefferson even here? He wasn't in AC3...

adventurewomen
09-01-2013, 11:24 PM
I haven't played the last part yet (no PS3 where I live now), but aren't these mythical powers in Connor's "mind"?
Since ToKW is a dream sequence and this dream happens after the events of AC3 the powers are within his body in the dream. The whole story is from a state of his subconscious mind after the events of AC3.

silvermercy
09-01-2013, 11:27 PM
Since ToKW is a dream sequence and this dream happens after the events of AC3 the powers are within his body in the dream. The whole story is from a state of his subconscious mind.
Yes. That's why I don't think it clashes with the AC narrative. Within dreams all kinds of magical and mythical powers are permitted. (Nothing is true, everything is permitted. lol)

GunnarGunderson
09-01-2013, 11:28 PM
The ending completely ruined it for me. Couldn't we have at least fake-killed fake-Washington before it turned into a complete pander-fest where the game reaffirmed its conclusion that George "Village Burner" Washington was such a righteous and just ruler who don't need no monarchy?

adventurewomen
09-01-2013, 11:33 PM
^ Silver avoid reading the post above this and below yours it contains spoilers for Redemption.


Yes. That's why I don't think it clashes with the AC narrative. Within dreams all kinds of magical and mythical powers are permitted. (Nothing is true, everything is permitted. lol)
Exactly! This is why I consider ToKW a separate game from AC3 because ToKW showcases to us what Connor's state of sub-concious mind is after the events of AC3. The ending cutscene of Redemption (I won't spoil the last part, since you have yet to play the final part of ToKW).

Shahkulu101
09-01-2013, 11:44 PM
The ending completely ruined it for me. Couldn't we have at least fake-killed fake-Washington before it turned into a complete pander-fest where the game reaffirmed its conclusion that George "Village Burner" Washington was such a righteous and just ruler who don't need no monarchy?

Lol yeah I too was angered at that. And to think ignorant American journalists thought it was going to slander him. They done the opposite.

ACHILLES4713
09-01-2013, 11:53 PM
I really can't understand why some people are confused lore-wise with TOKW. It didn't contradict what we've seen the apple do before; it was doing exactly what we know they do. It was showing Connor and Washington an illusion of a possible future. As far as the magic powers go, I see it as the apple doing a kinda of "Apple Hack" in order for the user(s) within the experience to steam roll through the illusion so it can show its message as quickly as possible. Its really quite simple if your familiar with the lore of the franchise.

VitaminsXYZ
09-01-2013, 11:55 PM
No

-why did Haytham and Achillies have to die offscreen. Why couldn't we get an epic final mission where Connor teams up with the two and they all beat Washington death with sharpened sticks
-why did the devs pass up on another opportunity to use Connor's epilomonologue?
-why is William Johnson voicing Sam Adams?
-Where is Lee?
-Why did they have a whole subplot of Connor slowly being corrupted by the power only to throw all of it out the window in the end?
-why is Thomas Jefferson even here? He wasn't in AC3...

A lot of these were most likely due to time constraints, as I don't think they worked on the bulk of it until after AC3 was released. Hence why you have voice actors doing work for other characters, and also probably why many weren't included. (Haytham, Lee, etc.) I remember Ziio's voice actress was actually in the middle of filming something, but since she was too important to leave out of the story, they had to make do with another VA.

And because Haytham didn't even appear, on top of this whole thing being in Connor's head, his soliloquy would've felt kinda out of place imo.

Overall if they had more time they probably would've added a lot more content. In this case them being short on time is understandable though, since they'd obviously wanna get the DLC out before heavy promotion of AC4 started, particularly in the summer.

SixKeys
09-02-2013, 12:06 AM
The explanation "it was all Connor's dream/subconscious" makes no sense. Washington saw the exact same events and even saw things that he couldn't have known about (like what Ziio looked like). If this was all a dream that could never happen (Connor getting super powers and all that), then why the hell were they so worried about this vision in the end? They could have just shrugged and gone "wow, what a trippy dream, you becoming a bear and all that", but they both acted like "OMG, all this could totally happen if we keep the Apple, therefore we must get rid of it".

LightRey
09-02-2013, 12:09 AM
ToKW was better told, but ACIII's story itself was better.

I-Like-Pie45
09-02-2013, 12:10 AM
and another important question

-why the hell is one of Connor's memory fragments of Deadmond being deaded?

SixKeys
09-02-2013, 12:12 AM
I really can't understand why some people are confused lore-wise with TOKW. It didn't contradict what we've seen the apple do before; it was doing exactly what we know they do. It was showing Connor and Washington an illusion of a possible future. As far as the magic powers go, I see it as the apple doing a kinda of "Apple Hack" in order for the user(s) within the experience to steam roll through the illusion so it can show its message as quickly as possible. Its really quite simple if your familiar with the lore of the franchise.

Then what was the Apple's message? "If you don't get rid of me, I will turn you into a magical man-bear-pig and bring your dead mother back in an alternate universe and undo lots of events that have already happened"?

GunnarGunderson
09-02-2013, 12:12 AM
and another important question

-why the hell is one of Connor's memory fragments of Deadmond being deaded?

Because Ubisoft honestly didn't think that much about it

adventurewomen
09-02-2013, 12:14 AM
The explanation "it was all Connor's dream/subconscious" makes no sense.
It was a dream sequence, and dreams aren't meant to make sense, that's the whole point of ToKW the continuity is changed.

silvermercy
09-02-2013, 12:15 AM
The explanation "it was all Connor's dream/subconscious" makes no sense. Washington saw the exact same events and even saw things that he couldn't have known about (like what Ziio looked like). If this was all a dream that could never happen (Connor getting super powers and all that), then why the hell were they so worried about this vision in the end? They could have just shrugged and gone "wow, what a trippy dream, you becoming a bear and all that", but they both acted like "OMG, all this could totally happen if we keep the Apple, therefore we must get rid of it".

I haven't played the last part obviously, but the impression I got is that it is not exactly a simple "dream" or a regular illusion. Isn't this "dream" not being affected by Connor's Apple-"infected" mind?

I don't know... to me it makes perfect sense. Apple-affected mind or not.

Jexx21
09-02-2013, 12:18 AM
My explanation for the powers:

Grand Temple isn't in the same place in this alternate timeline. This alternate timeline was something calculated from before the Grand Temple was built to be a research facility on how to save the world. The location for it is different, possibly under the Red Willow Tree now.

Red Willow tree's roots embedded itself into some kind of First Civilization technology and/or food source (think the Ambrosia/Mana machine Shaun found in the Grand Temple). Thus when tea is made from it's newer branches, it can provide the humans that drink it certain power. Maybe this food source was designed for First Civilization warriors. This food source can provide great power to human beings, but it also poses the risk of loosing your mind (ambrosia can heal people and make them stronger, but if the person consumes too much they can "burn up").

I think that this is the same stuff that the tataus and hallucinations in Far Cry 3 are caused by. But that might be a more radical theory to others.

SixKeys
09-02-2013, 12:19 AM
It was a dream sequence, and dreams aren't meant to make sense, that's the whole point of ToKW the continuity is changed.

And I just explained why it makes no sense that it's supposedly a dream. How can two people share the same dream and even dream of things they have absolutely no knowledge of? (Connor never met Thomas Jefferson, for example.) And if it was just a dream, why the hell were they so worried about it coming true in the end? If I dream about getting wolf super powers tonight, I'm not going to wake up in the morning and go "wow, this must be an omen that I really AM going to become a wolf!".

Jexx21
09-02-2013, 12:21 AM
I thought it was more of a warning: "If Washington continues to use the apple, he will likely become corrupt like in this calculation."

SixKeys
09-02-2013, 12:22 AM
I thought it was more of a warning: "If Washington continues to use the apple, he will likely become corrupt like in this calculation."

Then why didn't the Apple show a vision where Washington becoming corrupt actually makes sense? Why do the events in the vision take place before Connor's village is destroyed?

adventurewomen
09-02-2013, 12:24 AM
And I just explained why it makes no sense that it's supposedly a dream. How can two people share the same dream and even dream of things they have absolutely no knowledge of? (Connor never met Thomas Jefferson, for example.) And if it was just a dream, why the hell were they so worried about it coming true in the end? If I dream about getting wolf super powers tonight, I'm not going to wake up in the morning and go "wow, this must be an omen that I really AM going to become a wolf!".


Then why didn't the Apple show a vision where Washington becoming corrupt actually makes sense? Why do the events in the vision take place before Connor's village is destroyed?
I honestly think you should play ToKW again, tbh.

SixKeys
09-02-2013, 12:25 AM
I honestly think you should play ToKW again, tbh.

Why? What have I missed that is wrong from the points I've made in my replies?

Jexx21
09-02-2013, 12:29 AM
Then why didn't the Apple show a vision where Washington becoming corrupt actually makes sense? Why do the events in the vision take place before Connor's village is destroyed?
It also wanted to show Connor on how he could become "corrupt" by becoming more bloodthirsty if he succumbs to the lust of power.

Jexx21
09-02-2013, 12:29 AM
My explanation for the powers:

Grand Temple isn't in the same place in this alternate timeline. This alternate timeline was something calculated from before the Grand Temple was built to be a research facility on how to save the world. The location for it is different, possibly under the Red Willow Tree now.

Red Willow tree's roots embedded itself into some kind of First Civilization technology and/or food source (think the Ambrosia/Mana machine Shaun found in the Grand Temple). Thus when tea is made from it's newer branches, it can provide the humans that drink it certain power. Maybe this food source was designed for First Civilization warriors. This food source can provide great power to human beings, but it also poses the risk of loosing your mind (ambrosia can heal people and make them stronger, but if the person consumes too much they can "burn up").

I think that this is the same stuff that the tataus and hallucinations in Far Cry 3 are caused by. But that might be a more radical theory to others.

seriously, no one gonna reply to this :(

VitaminsXYZ
09-02-2013, 12:29 AM
And I just explained why it makes no sense that it's supposedly a dream. How can two people share the same dream and even dream of things they have absolutely no knowledge of? (Connor never met Thomas Jefferson, for example.) And if it was just a dream, why the hell were they so worried about it coming true in the end? If I dream about getting wolf super powers tonight, I'm not going to wake up in the morning and go "wow, this must be an omen that I really AM going to become a wolf!".

Well, I mean, they shared a dream, so the Apple obviously drew memories from both.

And they were worried that if Washington kept the Apple then he'd actually follow down that path, and as the vision showed, things would be pretty terrible.


Then why didn't the Apple show a vision where Washington becoming corrupt actually makes sense? Why do the events in the vision take place before Connor's village is destroyed?

To add more drama. And plus, the Apple had just showed them what would've happened if George had had the Apple since the beginning. It was an alternate timeline. If Washington was to actually use it in the current timeline, then yes, the events would be quite different.

Shahkulu101
09-02-2013, 12:33 AM
seriously, no one gonna reply to this :(

I liked your theory Jexx, well thought out. :) I honestly think it's cause it's 'just a dream' and that the apple itself induced the same dream for both Connor and George Washington.

adventurewomen
09-02-2013, 12:35 AM
@Jexx: I liked your explanation of the powers, interesting insight. :)



Why? What have I missed that is wrong from the points I've made in my replies?
It just seems like your missing out on certain details of ToKW, that maybe another play through that can help you decipher the questions and parts of the story that aren't clear.

Jexx21
09-02-2013, 12:36 AM
I liked your theory Jexx, well thought out. :) I honestly think it's cause it's 'just a dream' and that the apple itself induced the same dream for both Connor and George Washington.

Haha, thanks.

I would still argue that it has to be an alternate timeline calculated from back before the Grand Temple was built though.

LightRey
09-02-2013, 12:36 AM
The explanation "it was all Connor's dream/subconscious" makes no sense. Washington saw the exact same events and even saw things that he couldn't have known about (like what Ziio looked like). If this was all a dream that could never happen (Connor getting super powers and all that), then why the hell were they so worried about this vision in the end? They could have just shrugged and gone "wow, what a trippy dream, you becoming a bear and all that", but they both acted like "OMG, all this could totally happen if we keep the Apple, therefore we must get rid of it".
While you're making a good point, I don't completely agree. For one, it's obvious that the reality that the apple shows cannot be something that could happen or could have happened. This is because of two reasons:
1. Several people are alive that should be dead.
2. From the moment we get to see it, the Connor in this reality has the memories of ACIII's reality, not the ToKW reality.

This means that the only (sensible) way this reality can be seen as something that could have happened, is if we only look at the events right up to the point Connor 'enters' the ToKW-reality, with whatever point in time being the point where the two realities diverge being some time before Ziio's death in the ACIII-reality.

This also reinforces the idea that the apple is not so much showing a possible reality, but rather showing what kind of situation might present itself if either of them chooses to keep the apple. This leads me to believe that Connor's animal powers don't actually exist within the AC universe, but are rather a construct the apple uses so that both Connor and Washington are confronted with the corrupting effects of having (too) much power.

Jexx21
09-02-2013, 12:38 AM
While you're making a good point, I don't completely agree. For one, it's obvious that the reality that the apple shows cannot be something that could happen or could have happened. This is because of two reasons:
1. Several people are alive that should be dead.
2. From the moment we get to see it, the Connor in this reality has the memories of ACIII's reality, not the ToKW reality.

This means that the only (sensible) way this reality can be seen as something that could have happened, is if we only look at the events right up to the point Connor 'enters' the ToKW-reality, with whatever point in time being the point where the two realities diverge being some time before Ziio's death in the ACIII-reality.

This also reinforces the idea that the apple is not so much showing a possible reality, but rather showing what kind of situation might present itself if either of them chooses to keep the apple. This leads me to believe that Connor's animal powers don't actually exist within the AC universe, but are rather a construct the apple uses so that both Connor and Washington are confronted with the corrupting effects of having (too) much power.

Yea, I have to say it's either this or my theory. Admittedly, LightRey's makes more sense in terms of the AC universe, but since I want to believe that FC3 and AC are in the same universe I support my theory more. :P

SixKeys
09-02-2013, 12:40 AM
I didn't reply to your theory, Jexx, because while it's a good theory, it's just that - a fan theory. I want to know what the makers of this DLC actually had in mind for the story and how it fits in with our existing knowledge of the AC universe.


Well, I mean, they shared a dream, so the Apple obviously drew memories from both.

And they were worried that if Washington kept the Apple then he'd actually follow down that path, and as the vision showed, things would be pretty terrible.

So why didn't the Apple show what would actually happen if Washington had kept the Apple? Why did the Apple show things that absolutely could never happen, like Connor getting super powers? Why would the Apple go through such a weird, roundabout way of giving them both a trippy dream that makes no realistic sense in order to warn them about something that could never possibly happen the way it did in the dream?

Edit: LightRey's theory makes the most sense. The vision wasn't meant in any way to be realistic, just symbolic of Connor's and Washington's secret desires and how using the Apple could end up corrupting either of them.

adventurewomen
09-02-2013, 12:41 AM
While you're making a good point, I don't completely agree. For one, it's obvious that the reality that the apple shows cannot be something that could happen or could have happened. This is because of two reasons:
1. Several people are alive that should be dead.
2. From the moment we get to see it, the Connor in this reality has the memories of ACIII's reality, not the ToKW reality.

This means that the only (sensible) way this reality can be seen as something that could have happened, is if we only look at the events right up to the point Connor 'enters' the ToKW-reality, with whatever point in time being the point where the two realities diverge being some time before Ziio's death in the ACIII-reality.

This also reinforces the idea that the apple is not so much showing a possible reality, but rather showing what kind of situation might present itself if either of them chooses to keep the apple. This leads me to believe that Connor's animal powers don't actually exist within the AC universe, but are rather a construct the apple uses so that both Connor and Washington are confronted with the corrupting effects of having (too) much power.
Agreed! :)

Jexx21
09-02-2013, 12:42 AM
I didn't reply to your theory, Jexx, because while it's a good theory, it's just that - a fan theory. I want to know what the makers of this DLC actually had in mind for the story and how it fits in with our existing knowledge of the AC universe.

Thanks. Yea, I get what you mean, but sometimes they leave the answers up to the audience for them to have their own interpretation of it. Most people enjoy their interpretation the most.



So why didn't the Apple show what would actually happen if Washington had kept the Apple? Why did the Apple show things that absolutely could never happen, like Connor getting super powers? Why would the Apple go through such a weird, roundabout way of giving them both a trippy dream that makes no realistic sense in order to warn them about something that could never possibly happen the way it did in the dream?


It also wanted to show Connor on how he could become "corrupt" by becoming more bloodthirsty if he succumbs to the lust of power.

silvermercy
09-02-2013, 12:45 AM
Why would the Apple go through such a weird, roundabout way of giving them both a trippy dream that makes no realistic sense in order to warn them about something that could never possibly happen the way it did in the dream?
From Connor's point of view at least, I think it's the only way he could understand it better. For him, those super-powers are not trippy. Natives had those animals as part of their culture (with totems, names etc). There was also a scene in AC3 where Connor flies as an eagle (a symbol in his culture).

SixKeys
09-02-2013, 12:46 AM
See my edited post. I agree with LightRey's interpretation: the events in ToKW were all completely symbolic. The things we can't explain (timeline inconsistencies, Connor's powers, etc.) were just a mishmash of memories from both men's subconscious which the Apple used symbolically. So things like Connor's powers or the Willow Tree cannot and do not actually exist within the AC universe.

Jexx21
09-02-2013, 12:52 AM
I disagree that the powers "can't" exist in the AC universe.. I believe more that that was the way Connor's mind and the Animus interpreted them. Essentially, I believe that he was really just "super-powered" in stealth, speed, and strength.

ACHILLES4713
09-02-2013, 12:57 AM
Well, I'm glad everyone came to some sort of head cannon conclusion for themselves! :) I guess that was Ubisoft's intent, to leave it a little ambiguous, given the short time they had to develope it.

Jexx21
09-02-2013, 12:59 AM
Oh, and no. I don't think ToKW's story was better than AC3's. AC3 had the best story in the series, but it was the most poorly presented.

BATISTABUS
09-02-2013, 04:02 AM
No way, mainly because it was NO WAY near as cool or as interesting as it could have been. Very disappointing story-wise.

LoyalACFan
09-02-2013, 05:39 AM
Oh, and no. I don't think ToKW's story was better than AC3's. AC3 had the best story in the series, but it was the most poorly presented.

Yep. This. AC3 had an amazing story that was horribly told, but TOKW had a lame story albeit with a better presentation.

And before anybody jumps on me because I'm an AC2 supporter saying TOKW's story was two-dimensional, I actually still think AC2 had a compelling narrative that was also well-presented. I was rooting for Ezio all the way through to the end of AC2 (even though the story itself was a cliche), but in TOKW I was kinda like... "meh. He's gonna beat Washington, it was all a dream, no big deal."

Jexx21
09-02-2013, 05:46 AM
I have to admit though, they could have left most of sequence 7 out. The Midnight Ride, the commanding of the troops at Concord and Lexington.. Horrible. We should have been sneaking around, trying to find out information.

Bring back the information-finding...Have us sneak into someone's mansion to take papers or something. We don't need AC1 investigations to bring back the information-gathering aspect of assassinations.

roostersrule2
09-02-2013, 06:27 AM
AC3 had the better story, TOKW was just presented better.

I preferred TOKW.

LoyalACFan
09-02-2013, 06:55 AM
I have to admit though, they could have left most of sequence 7 out. The Midnight Ride, the commanding of the troops at Concord and Lexington.. Horrible. We should have been sneaking around, trying to find out information.

Bring back the information-finding...Have us sneak into someone's mansion to take papers or something. We don't need AC1 investigations to bring back the information-gathering aspect of assassinations.

Spot-on once again, Jexx. I'm growing tired of assassinations where everything is spelled out for me in advance by NPC's... AC1 actually had too much investigation gameplay IMO, but AC2 went a bit overboard by removing almost all of it, and by the time ACB came out, assassinations had devolved into "hi Ezio, go kill this guy plz."

Hopefully that might go away to a certain extent in AC4, since Edward's trying to figure out his own path. I would imagine he spends a good deal of time acting on his own plans, not playing errand boy.

Jexx21
09-02-2013, 07:05 AM
Also, stealing an idea from GTA V's bank heists.,, What about infiltrating a Templar's mansion during a party, memorize guard routes, the target's behaviors and usual things he does during his parties, where he keeps things, good places to set up traps. Then coming back during a different party (or the same one) and taking the target.

Or maybe just put a tripwire bomb in his bed.

Farlander1991
09-02-2013, 07:18 AM
Hell no.

AC3, while getting pacing problems, is a better story than ToKW in both the plot and presentation (that's right, I said it!)

While I enjoyed ToKW, episode 2 and 3 have pacing issues as well, though instead of taking too slow like in AC3, they're taking things incredibly fast. Plus interaction with some characters didn't make any sense and/or purpose, like Thomas Jefferson, or people from the Homestead, it would've been much more potent for the story if instead of them we got Charles Lee and/or Haytham.

Basically, episode 1 is the best story-wise (and pacing wise, AND character progression-wise, plus it was nice to see more of the Native American part), but episodes 2 and 3 are kind of messy, so I can't say that it's more well-presented than AC3.

avk111
09-02-2013, 07:27 AM
For me personally,

I havent played TOKW but I watched the gameplay and story on youtube and I just have to say that No the story doesnt really make it for me, the one thing I liked about the main story in AC3 is that it was full of shades of grey , your enemies were slowly emerging and not it wasnt all at once. Not to mention the political ramification in the main plot it gives a sense of realism into the picture.

Thank you

Farlander1991
09-02-2013, 08:05 AM
AC1 actually had too much investigation gameplay IMO

The problem with AC1 investigations actually, is that out of all the missions, the only ones that felt like investigations are eavesdropping missions (which would benefit greatly from AC3 eavesdropping mechanic, IMO), pickpocket missions and interrogations. All the other investigation missions were basically "Hey, do this for me and I'll tell you stuff", which didn't feel like investigation at all.

pacmanate
09-02-2013, 10:29 AM
I thought it was better pacing wise, the story was more consistent. Not to mention the mission design was better than AC3 imo. It was however a bit on the short side.

pirate1802
09-02-2013, 10:34 AM
Meh, the ending blew it. one of the biggest draws of the ToKW DLC was this speculation on what is actually happening, and we saw the ending coming miles away. That and the Washington-pandering. Infact this DLC totally reverses Washington's character from the game. No likey.

TheHumanTowel
09-02-2013, 10:41 AM
Meh, the ending blew it. one of the biggest draws of the ToKW DLC was this speculation on what is actually happening, and we saw the ending coming miles away. That and the Washington-pandering. Infact this DLC totally reverses Washington's character from the game. No likey.
Yeah ToKW leads you to believe there's something more going on and some deeper reason for what's happening. But no once you unlock the first Washington cutscene you've pretty much got it figured out. What you assume happens is exactly what happens. The entire thing is just a meaningless dream made by the apple to show "hurr the apple and power corrupts" which we've already had told to us constantly throughout the games. It doesn't tell us anything we didn't already know about the characters. It was fun enough but the entire thing was just an excuse for Ubi to muck around with alternate history and magic. So it's not better than AC3's story.

Locopells
09-02-2013, 01:20 PM
I wish Charles Lee was the leader of the Rebels in NY instead of Jefferson :/

With Hickey, Pitcairn and Johnson all being rebels...

The interactions between Lee and Connor as Allies would`v been priceless..

This!

poptartz20
09-04-2013, 10:44 PM
It's hard for me to really pic one over the other, but I would have to agree with some of the others here and say ToKW did have a more cohesive feel to it. I loved the musical score to it and made more sense coming from the Native American aspect of it. The pacing was better my only honest complaint was there was no HAYTHAM! *cries again* ToKW was a very Solid DLC. While the game wavered in some aspects but still beat out some of the Ezio games imo. Another solid entry. I enjoyed them both a lot!

so the winner is ...

LoyalACFan
09-04-2013, 10:48 PM
I loved the musical score to it and made more sense coming from the Native American aspect of it.

Yeah, the OST was amazing. "Ratonhnhake:ton" is one of my favorite tracks in the entire AC series :D

You're right about Haytham though, I would have loved to see him. And Lee and Achilles.

Farlander1991
09-04-2013, 10:53 PM
In ToKW interviews before the release, they were saying how Connor would have to choose at the end if he wants to stay in that world, and I presumed that Haytham, with whom he'd have a successful bonding relationship, would be one of the main reasons of the internal conflict.

And working with Lee is really a missed opportunity. It should've been him instead of Jefferson, or something. Just Connor's shock in that he has to work together with Lee, would've been priceless.

poptartz20
09-04-2013, 11:01 PM
Yeah, the OST was amazing. "Ratonhnhake:ton" is one of my favorite tracks in the entire AC series :D

You're right about Haytham though, I would have loved to see him. And Lee and Achilles.

I really don't get why they were left out honestly. :| I mean the DLC was still good and the music was great by far. I swear something about when they fight for the village... Gives me Feels! lol.


In ToKW interviews before the release, they were saying how Connor would have to choose at the end if he wants to stay in that world, and I presumed that Haytham, with whom he'd have a successful bonding relationship, would be one of the main reasons of the internal conflict.

See! That's exactly what I was thinking and wanting to happen. Ya know, At the end of the day I think he lost almost just as much in the alternate world as he did the real world. I just really thought there was going to be more of a conflict of wanting to return to the "real world" but there really wasn't. It was more or less like a reflection.

SixKeys
09-04-2013, 11:05 PM
Looking back, ToKW could have had a much better story if they had just broujght back some of the original actors (Haytham, Lee, Achilles). Considering how many returning characters had their voices replaced in the DLC, it seems Ubi was simply too cheap to bring back the more expensive actors. The story could have had potential for some fantastic character interactions, but they went for a simpler route.

Farlander1991
09-04-2013, 11:09 PM
Considering how many returning characters had their voices replaced in the DLC, it seems Ubi was simply too cheap to bring back the more expensive actors

Considering how many returning characters had their voices replaced in the DLC, they might as well just have them replaced for the likes of Haytham/Lee/Achilles. (Though I don't think bringing Adrian Hough would be a big problem, since he showed a great interest in working on AC again in one of the interviews, I think it was the Assassin's Den?).

But, yeah, there could've been fan backlash, but there's fan backlash regarding all the changed actors anyway.

LoyalACFan
09-05-2013, 02:17 AM
Looking back, ToKW could have had a much better story if they had just broujght back some of the original actors (Haytham, Lee, Achilles). Considering how many returning characters had their voices replaced in the DLC, it seems Ubi was simply too cheap to bring back the more expensive actors. The story could have had potential for some fantastic character interactions, but they went for a simpler route.

Lol, I'm still laughing about Warren's voice change. When I first saw him in the Redemption, I was like "Oh hey, it's War- wait, WTF?"

It was like he went through reverse puberty...

I-Like-Pie45
09-05-2013, 02:19 AM
Hilden B. Lade says that The Tyranny of King Desmond is the best story

Connorake.ton
09-05-2013, 05:30 PM
Haven't played ToKW. Only watched on YT. But it never happened in AC reality. Never been fan of "What if..." stories

MIA SILENT
09-05-2013, 06:30 PM
I'm surprised at the results. I thought ToKW was much better. I haven't played either in a while but the DLC to me was solid. The supernatural element probably made it more interesting to me. And whenever the clearly insane GW made an appearance I was engaged fully.