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speedreal
08-25-2013, 01:06 PM
I think the skill system is too restrictive, discourages choice and will lead to cookie cutter character.

This starts with character generation.

Limiting the mastery level of a skill(expert,master or grand master) discourages players from choosing that skill. Currently the dwarf defender can chose between axes or mace. Mace it can train master, axe to grand master. This will leave most players ignoring the mace skill due to its limited potential.

This is made worse by having pre-selected skills. Continuing the example of the dwarf defender, it has a skill point in axe to start with. Taking any other weapon skill will appear to be a waste.

In game it continues.

The mastery level also limits the amount of skill points players can place in a skill. With most weapons giving 2 to attack and 5% to damage for each skill point, players will want as many points as they can get by the end of the game.

While playing I have also seen some items have a mastery level requirement. If the best equipment also needs the highest mastery skills that are capped below grand master are further devalued.

To improve player choice and enjoyment of their characters I suggest:

-all skills available to a character can be learned to grand master level
-no pre-selected skill, more skill point instead.

sajahubi
08-25-2013, 03:23 PM
The limitation is not a problem, that was actually what made mm7 skill system better than mm6, in mm6 an archer had the same potential spell wize of the sorcerer but was tankier because they could both master bow, dagger, and elemental magic (minus light and dark) and the archer had access to better armor and melee weapons so getting an archer and a cleric was better than having a sorcerer in your party.

The real 2 issues are :

1. you can't put points past the mastery limit, like if you're limited to expert you can't put more than 6 points. That is what is going to force people to choose a class instead of another, because if you want to do a dual axe barbarian you can't put points past the master cap, but with a dual mace you can. You could make a sword and shield paladin in mm7 over a mace and shield because you could up the sword and armsmaster past their expert tier, so ever if you didn't get the GM bonus, your sword still got faster and more accurate.

2. the bonus you gain with a mastery. In previous m&m they were really different depending the weapon, making them unique depending what you wanted to do with your char. For example the sword was :

novice : faster recuperation (i.e. attack speed).
expert : better attack (i.e. accuracy).
master : use of sword in left hand.
gm : bonus in defence.

You never got more damage by upping your sword skill, that was all about speed for most of the classes and for the knight (who could gm sword) that was the keystone in the dual wielding build, mixing attack and defence all together.

Good example too, the mm7 ranger, that one was the pure hybrid (expert in most of the might and magic skills, master of none) with an exception, he could gm axe, making it a unique class, you could either build him hybdrid/utility char or specialized axe fighter.

Same goes for the magic skills, each mastery tier game unique upgrades to each spell (for some it was mor damage, for some it was group effect or mana reduction).

The class limitation of masteries is what differenciate hybrids and specialized classes and had more choices in class combination when you create your party.

speedreal
08-25-2013, 07:50 PM
i agree that mastery limiting the skill points that can be put into a skill is part of the problem but changing it wont help when players are first making a character.

in point two you mention difference between classes. my intention was to encourage two characters of the same class to be different. i didn't mean to suggest that all classes should have access to all skill .

GrakorTheOrc
08-26-2013, 06:55 PM
There are plenty of skills in this that I would want to put points into, even if I can't max it to GM: dodge, mysticism, etc. The varied limits really aren't the problem.

The problem is specifically how these limits interact with weapon and armor skills in particular. Expert dodge is always on no matter what, it has a tangible benefit. Expert mace only benefits you when wielding a mace, and so it and axe are mutually exclusive for a Defender. This does raise the question of why mace is even an option, but what can you do?

I found the Barbarian's weapon choices a bit more odd. A Barbarian can GM both spear and mace...but because he starts with a point in mace, you're kind of discouraged from going the spear route unless you have two of them in your party.

Valadurs
08-30-2013, 04:23 PM
The skill system of MM10 left me with mixed feelings. Like the other posters, I feel too restricted with the current system and would like to share some thoughts:

When I realized that you only get a one-time bonus when reaching expert/master/grandmaster I thought this would be a clever way to make hybrids more viable. Regardless if I get 1x Master or 2x Expert I would still get 2 benefits, while in the older games a Master would triple the effectiveness of every increase in this skill because the benefits were not static but dependent on your skill level. But a flaw from MM7 was repeated that prevents varied builds within a class.

MM7 introduced class restrictions on skills to make the classes more distinct (e.g. only Knights can become Grandmaster of Swords). While it worked out, it brutally limited the choices for specialization within a class. You had one or in best case 2 good weapon skills and only 1 good armor skill per class so not much to choose here. One of the root causes was that there was only one class that could achieve Grandmaster with any given skill. Why not have two classes that can be Grandmaster with the sword? Such things would add a lot to diversity in choosing skills.

The problem with a lack of specialization within a class itself is now present in MM10. It is made even worse by the fact you have preselected skills during character creation. This was ok in the older games because the first point was for free. However, it is not ok when you have to spend one of your precious points to bring it on equal level to the predetermined starting skill. Here are a few suggestions, focusing on the weapon skills:

- Remove the predetermined skills or make the first skill point free like in the older games (just pay a trainer)
- Give every damage-oriented melee class 3 weapons to choose from, and the defensive classes should get 2. Club and Axe for the defender should be equal choices.
- Make the Expert/Master/Grandmaster benefits roughly equal in power
- Rework the Grandmaster benefits: increased damage per skill point is a very weird bonus for reaching the skill cap, it is just a static %-value at this point.

Removal of Misc. Skills:
Alchemy among other skills is gone. I don´t know the reason for this but if it is just the fact that every skill should have a combat benefit, include them in the already existing skills. Like identify item became a spell. Example: An expert in Magic Focus creates a random medium potion everytime you rest.

More interesting benefits for Skills:
Many of the skills are a bit bland and could use some fresh and exciting ideas. Here is one idea from me: a small percentage of damage dealt in melee or ranged combat is transferred to the mana pool of the character, this could be tied to the Mysticism skill. This would buff the archer a bit because he can deal more damage than the mage and would give them an incentive to not neglect their combat skills, promoting more varied character builds. Likewise, melee characters could get a skill to encourage them to cast spells (real spells, not their combat skills): characters with the warfare skill (German: Kriegsführung) would get a damage boost for their next attack when they cast a spell.

schuschinger
08-30-2013, 05:00 PM
Hm, good Thread, I played the older Parts aswell but didnt even really thought about the skills too much yet, since its pre release and almost certainly not balanced very well yet.
What I definately miss tho,are more skills like repair Weapon/Armor, Alchemy,Perception, finding Traps etc,or maybe even one for secrets..which btw I hope are gonna change since you can simply see them too easily on the Minimap and use whispering shadows,at least I did.
Back to the Skills, well, first of all Id like to see something where you can level up and have to pay Gold for it, but Im curious as to others see that.Id also say that the predetermined Skills should be gone, or it should give an optional Option for it if you create a Party.Generally tho,Im okay with the old system and the new one probably aswell, but obviously it is a big issue if you can only use 2 kinds of Weapons, one for expert and one GM if the GM gives you some very good benefit, I totally agree with that.

xfysxbowtie
08-31-2013, 01:33 AM
I agree about the point limit.

If we are allowed to continue to invest in skills after we hit our master cap, it will be greatly good.

Valadurs
09-06-2013, 07:54 PM
A matter of skill

The introduction of combat skills / spells for the physical-oriented classes was a great addition and will help to make combat much more strategic. However, at the moment there is not much diversity in this aspect, all your non-casters will end up with more or less of the same spells. So I thought up two new skills to add more variety of choices. Of course, numbers are just wild guesses ;)

Skill 1: First aid
- Per skill point: regenerates 0.5 Health per combat round, does only work in combat.
- Start ability: Stimulants, cures status ailments like weakness on one party member.
- Expert ability: Bandage, treats the wounds of an ally, restoring a small amount of health at the start of the next turn
- Master ability: Dissect, attack that removes one buff from the enemy
- Grandmaster ability: Reanimation, heals a unconscious party member, even works on dead allies if used immediately after death

Skill 2: Leadership
- Per skill point: increases the damage done by all party members by 1%
- Start ability: Phalanx Formation, grants each party member an additional general block chance, lasts 3 turns
- Expert ability: Attack Command, the target of this spell gains 1 additional weapon swing on his next attack
- Master ability: Inspire Allies, an attack that restores mana to all allies except the caster proportional to a small amount of damage dealt
- Grandmaster ability: Last stand, gives all allies one additional action for this turn, doubles the damage they receive