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View Full Version : R The game needs a front row / back row system



fongSoi
08-23-2013, 06:22 PM
Everything about the game suggests that it should have a front row / back row, where you have your tougher melee characters at the front and your more fragile ranged characters at the back. This would make it more rewarding to use a mix of melee / range characters and also adds importance to your use of terrain in battles (e.g. don't get flanked or your fragile characters become exposed).

windezz
08-23-2013, 07:02 PM
What he said. There should be some kind of emphasis on party formation instead of assuming 4 people standing like a firing squad.

fongSoi
08-23-2013, 07:09 PM
At the moment the best party is probably just 4 orcs as they have the best mix of toughness and melee damage. The defender role is pretty pointless at the moment as he can't actually defend anything seeing as your fragile ranged party members are standing on the front row.

Sangrael_WoW
08-23-2013, 07:18 PM
At the moment the best party is probably just 4 orcs as they have the best mix of toughness and melee damage. The defender role is pretty pointless at the moment as he can't actually defend anything seeing as your fragile ranged party members are standing on the front row.

Put one point into Warfare and you get a taunt. With base Spirit and just the one point into Warfare you have the mana to taunt four times, which is generally enough in a tough fight.

I do agree with OP though, would be very nice to have a front row/back row system to make mages less of a liability.

deadraque
08-23-2013, 07:36 PM
9 games with all with front row system and you want to make it 2/2. That is not gone happen. This is M&M not Legend of Grimrock, that would be a serious disappointment if they did. Even MM3 had 6 oor 8 on a row. That is also why your warrior in MMX had the kind of battle cry so the next round of damages are taken on him. For a player like me that played them since the beginning I am so happy they brought MM back for the grave, so we don't want the basics to be changed or then we change it from name and don't call it Might & Magic anymore.
But that's just me...

Maomor
08-23-2013, 09:52 PM
A tactical setup would offer so much more depth for race and class selections. The more of it it's very easy to implement! As suggested with offering a setup consisting of 2 rows they could implement it like that:

4 in front, 0 in back: 25% chance for each party member being hit
3 in front, 1 in back: 90% chance that one in the front is hit, 10% chance that one in the back is hit
2 in front, 2 in back: 60% chance that one in the front is hit, 40% chance that one in the back is hit
1 in front, 3 in back: 30% chance that one in the front is hit, 70% chance that one in the back is hit

Also the game does NOT NEED TO CARE about the following case:
Let's assume you have 1 weak wizard in the back row and 3 ultra-strong orcs in the front row. If the party gets attacked from behind, then the wizard is still protected by the others by the same existing chance (90%) as always. The front and back rows shall only be "symbolic" for the protection . It doesn't care about if the enemy attacks from the side or behind. The protection chance stays always the same.

As the topic interests me a calculation approach:
So if the enemy hits the player party and you have a setup described above (3 front, 1 back)... how is it calculated? The simplest solution would certainly be to create a list of 100 elements (ninety elements being "1" and ten elements being "0"), and shuffle the list by using some premade Fisher-Yates algorithm or else. Then pick the first element of the list and you know who is hit. If the front row is hit, then you must calculate which of the three is hit. However this can be chosen purely random as each one has 33% chance for being hit.

How to calculate percentage when some party member dies?
I'd suggest to provide fixed percentage values again. Since it's only 4 party members it's not so much work, e.g.:

2 in front, 1 in back: 80% chance that one in the front is hit, 20% chance that one in the back is hit
1 in front, 1 in back: 60% chance that one in the front is hit, 40% chance that one in the back is hit
1 in front, 2 in back: 40% chance that one in the front is hit, 60% chance that one in the back is hit

Something like that... of course if only a single party member is left then he gets the full damage, no matter if he is standing on second row or not.

Maybe there are some quicker math formulas than the list-shuffle to calculate the attacked party member, but I can't figure out which ones. However this setup is easy to implement for the programmer and it's easy to understand by the player. What is needed though would be an additional small GUI element to setup positions. A GUI addition for tactics could simply look like that:
______________
|_o_|_o_|_o_|_o_| <---front row
|_o_|_o_|_o_|_o_| <---back row

It's like radiobuttons. You can select for each party member either the radiobutton on top or the one on the bottom. Simple and efficient.

GigaFather
08-23-2013, 10:29 PM
Those paper caster classes and archers trade durability for their utility or ranged efficiency, so I don't think the formation system is necessary.
Even ranger has bonus evasion to give her some more protection in comparison to others and it will also make it a choice of wheter to put those ability and skill points into making them more durable or taking risks while having them even stronger, it's a limiting factor to keep their powers in check (or should be).
As suggested by others I tried to build the ranger into more melee oriented character and if she had any more durability in comparison to the current melee classes, she would perform on same level or better than them in melee while also having access to some magic and more potent ranged attack.

I'm not sure how Warfare scales and if there are other abilities or passives like Challenge (taunt), but it should redirect enough hits in worst case scenario to let you drop regen or chug potions on the weaker classes or just burst the enemy down.

While the positioning system might allow for some extra tactical decisions, it would probably warrant making the fragile characters even more fragile.

Kmanfree
08-24-2013, 12:01 AM
A tactical setup would offer so much more depth for race and class selections. The more of it it's very easy to implement! As suggested with offering a setup consisting of 2 rows they could implement it like that:

4 in front, 0 in back: 25% chance for each party member being hit
3 in front, 1 in back: 90% chance that one in the front is hit, 10% chance that one in the back is hit
2 in front, 2 in back: 60% chance that one in the front is hit, 40% chance that one in the back is hit
1 in front, 3 in back: 30% chance that one in the front is hit, 70% chance that one in the back is hit

It's simple statistics combined with some probability.

Also the game does NOT NEED TO CARE about the following case:
Let's assume you have 1 weak wizard in the back row and 3 ultra-strong orcs in the front row. If the party gets attacked from behind, then the wizard is still protected by the others by the same existing chance (80%) as always. The front and back rows shall only be "symbolic" for the protection . It doesn't care about if the enemy attacks from the side or behind. The protection chance stays always the same.

This way it's easy to implement for the programmer and it's easy to understand by the player. What is needed though would be an additional small GUI element to setup positions.


As the topic interests me a calculation approach:
So if the enemy hits the player party and you have a setup described above (3 front, 1 back)... how is it calculated? As my math knowledge isn't that fresh anymore the simplest solution would certainly be to create a list of 100 elements (eighty elements being "1" and twenty elements being "0"), and shuffle the list by using some premade Fisher-Yates algorithm or else. Then pick the first element of the list and you know who is hit. If the front row is hit, then you must calculate which of the three is hit. However this can be chosen purely random as each one has 33% chance for being hit.

How to calculate percentage when some party member dies?
I's suggest to provide fixed percentage values again. Since it's only 4 party members it's not so much work, e.g.:

2 in front, 1 in back: 80% chance that one in the front is hit, 20% chance that one in the back is hit
1 in front, 1 in back: 60% chance that one in the front is hit, 40% chance that one in the back is hit
1 in front, 2 in back: 40% chance that one in the front is hit, 60% chance that one in the back is hit

Something like that... of course if only a single party member is left then he gets the full damage, no matter if he is standing on second row or not.

Maybe there are some quicker math formulas than the list-shuffle to calculate the attacked party member, but I can't figure out which ones.


A GUI addition for tactics could simply look like that:
______________
|_o_|_o_|_o_|_o_| <---front row
|_o_|_o_|_o_|_o_| <---back row

It's like radiobuttons. You can select for each party member either the radiobutton on top or the one on the bottom. Simple and efficient.

Sounds like a nice idea here.

deadlybunny
08-24-2013, 04:44 AM
Everything about the game suggests that it should have a front row / back row, where you have your tougher melee characters at the front and your more fragile ranged characters at the back. This would make it more rewarding to use a mix of melee / range characters and also adds importance to your use of terrain in battles (e.g. don't get flanked or your fragile characters become exposed).

Agree 100% Mages are always so squishy.

xfysxbowtie
08-24-2013, 06:22 AM
That's now how Might and Magic has ever worked. Get over it and use your weapon master skills.

outerfox
08-24-2013, 06:26 AM
I always thought that in Might and Magic, it worked based on party order? Like in M&M 2 (if you're using default charcters), Sir Felgar, Terwin III and I believe Sure Valla were the three who were attacked most, while Gene Eric, Cassandra and The Hermit were least likely to be attacked? I could be wrong though. But no, Might and Magic has never had a front/back row system. Don't see why they would start now with X. If it ain't broke, don't try to fix it!