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View Full Version : Blow Darts going the way of Bombs?



thekyle0
08-21-2013, 04:11 AM
I've recently become interested in AC4 after losing attachment to the franchise once it began to follow several negative trends in the wake of Assassin's Creed 2. When I finally decided to give Assassin's Creed 3 a chance I found that the franchise finally made some forward progress with their gameplay and story elements. While there is only so much I can glean from a few trailers and previews, AC4 appears to have charted its course for similarly material improvements over its predecessors.

There is one feature though I fear could be an example of some backslide into a poor feature that came out of Revelations. I'm referring of course to the bomb crafting system. I don't know that this is a general consensus, but my opinion was that that bomb system was at least 86% BS, and that is mathematically true, I crunched the numbers. 10 out of 12 the twelve bomb functions were pointless because their tactical ends could be replicated with either the Fragmentation bomb or the Smoke bomb (phosphorus smoke), to say nothing of the highly situational usefulness of fuse, trip wire, and sticky shells, or varied powder blasts

I admit that my research has been brief and shallow on this subject regarding AC4, but my initial impression is that the the blow darts may introduce some similarly redundant tactical options into the new AC game. To my knowledge, the berserk dart and sleep dart are the only darts thus far revealed. According to the IGN wiki, the sleep dart can tranquilize a guard and draw his comrades over to investigate while the berserk dart sets the target into a frenzy causing a brawl with nearby NPC's. If the advantage of both darts is to create a distraction, how is one materially distinct from the other? What makes me skeptical is that these are just the two revealed more than two months away from launch. How much potential is there for other unimaginative and redundant dart functions?

Obviously, if it turns out these are really the only two then my apprehensions will have been for naught. However, if that's the case then I'd still be unhappy over the missed opportunity. There is a possibility to introduce some really useful and distinct tools through the blow darts. Off the top of my head I would propose a whistling dart. The point of this would be to lure nearby guards first to where it landed and then to where it came from. This could be used to lure guards close to a hiding place or blind ledge for an assassination, and it wouldn't require that another guard already inhabit that space as it would if we were limited to the sleep dart. Another alternative I'd propose is a panic dart. This would cause the afflicted NPC to run away, and draw maybe one or two of his comrades with him in an chase to subdue him. It could even have the potential to lure entire columns away if you target the commanding officer. This dart would be especially useful as a replacement for the lure command, which I believe has been lost if there is no longer a guild of assassins to command. This is distinct from other distractions since it can remove guards from a scene without leaving a body to draw them off predicable patrol paths or set them on an investigation

Anyway, that's as far as I can stretch my two cents on the subject. I'm honestly thrilled to be excited about an AC game again. I hope this post leads to some meaningful discussion (yes, even on the internet).

Jexx21
08-21-2013, 04:21 AM
those are the ONLY dart types.

and we don't need a whistle dart since we can whistle..

LoyalACFan
08-21-2013, 04:21 AM
Great post.

I think the distinction between berserk and sleep darts is that sleep darts will be used for traditional stealth. Think of sleep darts as a replacement of the bow or throwing knife; silent, long-range, kills them silently if they're not in the line of sight of another guard. Berserk darts are used to draw guards away, so if one guy is blocking your path but other guards can see him (therefore ruining your shot at a stealth kill) you would shoot a berserk dart at a nearby guard, and the problematic guard would leave his post to go see what the hell was up with his buddy, allowing you to slip past the path he was blocking.

All of this is assuming that the guard detection AI is fixed after AC3, but if it's not, it won't matter.

Jexx21
08-21-2013, 04:23 AM
Great post.

I think the distinction between berserk and sleep darts is that sleep darts will be used for traditional stealth. Think of sleep darts as a replacement of the bow or throwing knife; silent, long-range, kills them silently if they're not in the line of sight of another guard. Berserk darts are used to draw guards away, so if one guy is blocking your path but other guards can see him (therefore ruining your shot at a stealth kill) you would shoot a berserk dart at a nearby guard, and the problematic guard would leave his post to go see what the hell was up with his buddy, allowing you to slip past the path he was blocking.

All of this is assuming that the guard detection AI is fixed after AC3, but if it's not, it won't matter.

Sleep darts don't work immediately and if you take too long to do whatever the guy will wake up.

Wolfmeister1010
08-21-2013, 04:23 AM
Sleep arts will take care of one guard. If you there are multiple guards in the same area, then berserk darts are more useful.

Wolfmeister1010
08-21-2013, 04:24 AM
Sleep darts don't work immediately and if you take too long to do whatever the guy will wake up.

Where does it say they don't work immediately?

LoyalACFan
08-21-2013, 04:26 AM
Sleep darts don't work immediately and if you take too long to do whatever the guy will wake up.

But the idea is the same. It's a silent takedown, even if it takes a few seconds to kick in.

Jexx21
08-21-2013, 04:27 AM
Where does it say they don't work immediately?


Logic that says poison shouldn't take hold in a milisecond. I expect a 2 second delay.

Jexx21
08-21-2013, 04:28 AM
But the idea is the same. It's a silent takedown, even if it takes a few seconds to kick in.
not a take down if the guy wakes up (and they do wake up)

Wolfmeister1010
08-21-2013, 04:30 AM
Logic that says poison shouldn't take hold in a milisecond. I expect a 2 second delay.

Of course. No sarcasm or snarkiness meant on my part.

I assume it will be like the berserk darts. It'll take like a second

LoyalACFan
08-21-2013, 04:32 AM
not a take down if the guy wakes up (and they do wake up)

Yeah it is... if he's incapacitated for a significant amount of time, that's what I'd call a takedown. Besides, I never stay in one place long if I'm trying to infiltrate someplace in AC, so I doubt I would ever take long enough for them to wake up. Assuming you can't just go up to the unconscious body and stab them to death while they're down.

Jexx21
08-21-2013, 04:34 AM
I actually think the time limit on that is supposed to be fairly short.. not sure.. but I'd say 15 seconds.

Wolfmeister1010
08-21-2013, 04:35 AM
I actually think the time limit on that is supposed to be fairly short.. not sure.. but I'd say 15 seconds.

...I don't think so. I say about a min.

Jexx21
08-21-2013, 04:48 AM
The way they talk about it in blogs makes it seem a lot shorter. I mean, Ash is saying how they didn't want a silent ranged weapon that could kill. Knocking someone out, even for a minute, may as well just be killing.

Megas_Doux
08-21-2013, 04:57 AM
I would be using the "regular" rope darts, not the over powered ones. Just as I would not be crafting the chest guns. Hope you can choose that, instead of being force to do it.

Jexx21
08-21-2013, 05:04 AM
What? Ash hasn't even officially confirmed rope darts (although we know they're there), why do you think there are upgrades for them?

As for the poison darts, I doubt there are "normal" darts and "upgraded" darts, I think that you get the sleep and berserk darts pretty much when you get the blowpipe.

That's how it was in Liberation anyway.

deskp
08-21-2013, 05:31 AM
What? Ash hasn't even officially confirmed rope darts (although we know they're there), why do you think there are upgrades for them?

As for the poison darts, I doubt there are "normal" darts and "upgraded" darts, I think that you get the sleep and berserk darts pretty much when you get the blowpipe.

That's how it was in Liberation anyway.

WHy u think the rope darts are back?, I don't, they were kindof useless in ac3, in that you could go the whole game without really using them. I even forgot about them playing the game, and only used them for chalenges...'

for me, they didn't add enough fun to the game, and they seemed out of place in the setting.

That said, i wouldnt at all mind if the have them in ac4 more options for people that want it is always a positive!

Jexx21
08-21-2013, 05:40 AM
WHy u think the rope darts are back?, I don't, they were kindof useless in ac3, in that you could go the whole game without really using them. I even forgot about them playing the game, and only used them for chalenges...'

for me, they didn't add enough fun to the game, and they seemed out of place in the setting.

That said, i wouldnt at all mind if the have them in ac4 more options for people that want it is always a positive!

I think they're back because their symbol was on the weapon wheel and the fact that someone somewhere did say that ropedarts are back, but Ash didn't say yes or no when asked about it on twitter.

Also rope darts were amazing.

Megas_Doux
08-21-2013, 05:49 AM
What? Ash hasn't even officially confirmed rope darts (although we know they're there), why do you think there are upgrades for them?

As for the poison darts, I doubt there are "normal" darts and "upgraded" darts, I think that you get the sleep and berserk darts pretty much when you get the blowpipe.

That's how it was in Liberation anyway.

Duhhh! My bad, I was talking about the poison darts haha

Jexx21
08-21-2013, 05:53 AM
well, there aren't "normal" poison darts, at least not if you're thinking of the ones from ACB-AC3

TheDanteEX
08-21-2013, 07:52 AM
I have a feeling the sleep dart will work similar to AC3's poison darts, in which the guard staggers for a few second and drops to the floor non-lethally. However, if it was confirmed they would wake up after a while then that's a really good thing. It would be even better if a guard falls asleep in front of other guards then they can wake the sleeping guard up, reducing the effect's time span.

Jexx21
08-21-2013, 07:56 AM
It was confirmed a while ago.. somewhere.. I think in the Plantation demo.

SixKeys
08-21-2013, 08:38 AM
The way they talk about it in blogs makes it seem a lot shorter. I mean, Ash is saying how they didn't want a silent ranged weapon that could kill. Knocking someone out, even for a minute, may as well just be killing.

We have throwing knives. I don't think a guy hit with a knife in the back is just going to pass out and get up after a few minutes.

Jexx21
08-21-2013, 09:18 AM
not confirmed if we can actually buy throwing knives.. we might only be able to get them off of a certain type of guard.

Farlander1991
08-21-2013, 09:48 AM
not confirmed if we can actually buy throwing knives.. we might only be able to get them off of a certain type of guard.

We probably will be able to.

Though, I so wish that guards (and chests) would be the only way to get secondary tools (akin to stealing knives in AC1 from thugs or getting resources in ToKW), in AC2-AC3 there never was a sense of needing to conserve resources or scavenge for resources or manage resources, since it was easy as hell to just refill everything in the store.

Jexx21
08-21-2013, 10:24 AM
I dunno, I sort of feel like throwing knives might be exclusive to that guard type, maybe even the explorable caves.

thekyle0
08-22-2013, 01:06 AM
those are the ONLY dart types.

and we don't need a whistle dart since we can whistle..I think if they introduced the whistling dart it would be useful in entirely different situations from the regular whistle. The regular whistle is intended for use on the ground to lure a guard around the corner and into your hidden blade. The point of a whistling dart would to use from a distance, perhaps an elevated position. It would allow the player to slip by guards rather than just lure them out of sight. It would also make further use of the free-aim system they're pushing with this installment.


Sleep arts will take care of one guard. If you there are multiple guards in the same area, then berserk darts are more useful.Exactly, so if the berserk darts accomplish the same tactical ends more effectively, how is there any incentive to use sleep darts? They've built a tool we'll never use.

WHy u think the rope darts are back?, I don't, they were kindof useless in ac3, in that you could go the whole game without really using them. I even forgot about them playing the game, and only used them for chalenges...'

for me, they didn't add enough fun to the game, and they seemed out of place in the setting.

That said, i wouldnt at all mind if the have them in ac4 more options for people that want it is always a positive!Whoa whoa whoa, not to go off topic but the rope darts were incredible. For an eastern weapon they definitely had a tribal feel, which fit perfectly with Connor. Not to mention they were excellent for bringing down Jaegers in a fight and for pulling guards into tall grass and bushes for a stealth kill. While they already had a lot of options, I agree with you that they had even more potential. I would have liked to see them as a tool in free running for reaching taller ledges or swing on otherwise out of reach branches.


I have a feeling the sleep dart will work similar to AC3's poison darts, in which the guard staggers for a few second and drops to the floor non-lethally. However, if it was confirmed they would wake up after a while then that's a really good thing. It would be even better if a guard falls asleep in front of other guards then they can wake the sleeping guard up, reducing the effect's time span.Based on the IGN wiki I read, other guards do come over to wake up their tranquilized comrade. That's the point of the tool as a distraction method.

Jexx21
08-22-2013, 01:29 AM
Berserk darts for groups and when you wanna whittle down enemies, and sleep darts for 1-2 guards (or when you don't want your actions to result in killing).

I think that's pretty good use for both of them. It's like, if I didn't have the sleeping dart and there was only a lone guard for me to handle, I wouldn't want to use the berserk dart on them. If you get close they'll attack you!

catgesa1
08-22-2013, 01:46 AM
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Wolfmeister1010
08-22-2013, 01:49 AM
Instead of whistle darts, we should have an option to throw rocks like fc3. Angle them like bombs in ACR.

Jexx21
08-22-2013, 03:07 AM
As a PC player, I hate the throwing mechanic in the AC games. Both in ACR and the MP