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Thomas_Grey
08-20-2013, 05:50 AM
Since this is clearly going to be an issue from the start, I thought it might be a good idea to start a running tally of the ups and downs of the new movement style compared to the original series. So please everyone why don't we put our heads together and find out if the good outweighs the bad or vice versa.
Pro[/B]
- Allows for true turn-based combat
- Allows for clear metering of actions
- Is simple to implement for developers
allowing for more focus on story dev
Con
-Causes combat to be simplistic and seem non-fluid
-Minimizes terrain usage in combat
-In an age of modern 3D programming makes the game feel out of date and poorly developed
-Will make interaction with small portions of the environment impossible in any real way
* -Limits experimentation of tactics
-Hinders immersion of combat and world seems flat.
-Negates the value of exploration in a game arguably based on travel and adventuring

Now clearly by my count so far, I would vote to change the system. But I would like to hear what others are feeling on the issue. As of right now I'm completely open to the new grid system but would like us as a community (and hopefully the developers) to start a dialogue about some of the key issues of the system. OR! if you feel that there are key concepts that in my oh-so-limited vision I have missed please please PLEASE; comment and maybe tell me why or why not they are important and/or why my own ideas are perhaps flawed!

Tiarka
08-20-2013, 06:19 AM
Though I am still reserved about either system to choose, I do not agree with some of your points.


compared to the original series.
It is not a new movement style, as M&M 1-2-3-4-5 already used this system (and a lot of fans consider M&M4-5 are the best games of the series). So the original series DID use this system. The free-movement style appeared in M&M6, and although it is still, in my opinion, a really good game, we have to admit that there is a huge gap between old-style and modern-style. For M&M10, the devs intentionnaly used the grid-based system, which could be aguable, indeed. But the recent success of Legend of Grimlock showed that it could easily be accepted by the community.


-Hinders immersion of combat and world seems flat.
I do not agree with this point at all, it is purely subjective. In my opinion, a grid-based style can boost immersion: it allows devs to "surprise" the player with monster suddenly appearing just behind a corner (like in Legend of Grimlock). It forces you think twice before moving somewhere because it is not as easy to flee when you're in front of an ennemy as in a free-movement system.


- Minimizes terrain usage in combat
Once again, I don't really understand your point. A grid-based system is much more tactical during combats: your position is really important, you can use obstacles to force ranged ennemies to approach, you have to be careful about the aggro zone of farther ennemies, etc.


So, in my opinion, you should add the two pros:
- more tactical combats
- more "surprise effects" and immersion during dugeon explorations

But I do agree with some of your cons, especially the negation of the "open-world exploration" aspect. The open-world areas will undoubtedly look like big outdoor dungeons (and from what I've seen, it is the case).

LeadStarDude.
08-20-2013, 06:20 AM
I think they should add the option for free movement in the settings. This game should have grid based turning, optional free movement, & optional turn based game play. Until all of this is fixed the game play really sucks. I love the graphics & depth, but this grid based movement sytem is simply crap.

WarBaby2
08-20-2013, 06:24 AM
Personally, I think the grid based movement is fine... and it's a bas design concept not up for discussion anyhow... BUT, it should be more fluent outside of combat, meaning: As long as you are exploring, you should move seamless from tile to tile without stopping, as is LoG.

Tiarka
08-20-2013, 06:29 AM
Personally, I think the grid based movement is fine... and it's a bas design concept not up for discussion anyhow... BUT, it should be more fluent outside of combat, meaning: As long as you are exploring, you should move seamless from tile to tile without stopping, as is LoG.

Completely agree with you, it is too titchy right now and it makes exploration of open-world areas and towns exhausting...

LeadStarDude.
08-20-2013, 06:32 AM
Personally, I think the grid based movement is fine... and it's a bas design concept not up for discussion anyhow... BUT, it should be more fluent outside of combat, meaning: As long as you are exploring, you should move seamless from tile to tile without stopping, as is LoG.

That is what I mean by free movement option. I understand that this is a grid based game, but we need to be able to move freely.

Himekochikane
08-20-2013, 06:35 AM
Pro:
-Causes combat to be far more tactical, as opposed to the boring easymode as seen in MM6-9
-Maximizes realistic terrain usage and minimizes scummy "playstyles" that are little more than AI exploits (Minotaurs in doors, looking at you MM7; Attacking enemies that can't attack you and can't do a thing about it, looking at you MM6). This helps immersion a ton. Nothing breaks immersion quicker than the MM6-8 style of 45328756385 enemies swarming you like zombies without a brain, then getting stuck by a cliff.
-Maximizes experimentation with actual tactics, because the game designers can focus on battle strategy and monster abilities, as opposed to having to constantly test for the newest AI exploits which in turn would cheapen combat.

Con:
-makes combat harder for terrible players, because AI exploiting isn't as easy and players will have to actually learn the enemies. Many modern gamers are incapable of doing this, and thus will complain. You can already see it happening.


-In an age of modern 3D programming makes the game feel out of date and poorly developed

That's nonsense, of course. You should rephrase it to
-In the age of modern 3D programming, this is perfectly appropriate.

Several of your cons are actually merely taste - for example, for many people, turn/grid based *adds* immersion, while going realtime would break it, simply due to monster behavior. Similarly, grid based gameplay usually is considered the most rewarding for exploration. This is why nobody really cares for the exploration in MM9, while people LOVE exploring the Etrian Odyssey games.

All in all, grid/turn based makes for a better game overall, after all, it directly leads to deeper GAMEPLAY. You know, the meat of a GAME. Gameplay should not be dictated by 1337 EFFEXTXTX or PHAT GRAPHIXXX, just because you CAN have fluid 3D movement doesn't mean you have to have it. Graphics are an OPTION in the game maker's toolbox, not a requirement.
The argument itself is ludicrous, akin to whining that Schindler's List didn't have Explosions and Space Battles, and therefore, Schindler's List must be terrible, because in this day and age, special effects are good enough to have them. It's nonsense.

As a rule, turn based combat always has deeper combat - it's simply a consequence of how turn based combat is set up. Real-time/free roamning cannot have combat as deep, and never will. Therefore, grid based is the way to go for a game that wants to focus on combat and strategy. It's simply a better design choice, even though people who only know new games may not be able to handle it well. This is okay - games don't need to appeal to everyone.
For people that want exploration without a grid, single-character games akin to Dark Souls are a much better pick because those games actually have design choices that compliment the real-time nature of the combat - but those games aren't Might and Magic and, more importantly, wouldn't work anywhere near as well as they do with a party.

You can't have it both ways, I'm afraid.


View Post
Personally, I think the grid based movement is fine... and it's a bas design concept not up for discussion anyhow... BUT, it should be more fluent outside of combat, meaning: As long as you are exploring, you should move seamless from tile to tile without stopping, as is LoG.

This I agree with - that is the one thing that should be changed, alongside not having to wait for animations of invisible enemies.


. But the recent success of Legend of Grimlock showed that it could easily be accepted by the community.

Not just that. There's also games like the Etrian Odyssey games - which will be mentioned in most recommended rpgs for the (3)DS lists. Grid/turn based just adds tactical options that would be missing in a real time game :)

Ganson316
08-20-2013, 07:11 AM
One thing I don't understand about all this uproar over grid vs. smooth turn. What makes you think that it would be so easy to just up and switch at this point? Some of you talk like it's as easy as the Devs tossing a button in and HEY! Free movement!

Buddy it doesn't work that way. The whole game is built on that design, and folks are going to have to get used to it. It's not going anywhere. Just because this is early release doesn't mean this game has not been in development for some time. Grid based is a deliberate and perfectly valid design decision that was made early on in the development process. All the gameplay to date has been designed around this. You can't just up and change it to free range without scrapping the majority of the work done on the project to date.

As someone who has played more than my fair share of turn based dungeon crawlers, I can tell you that some of my favorites have been on the grid. Modern games are still made this way. It does, in fact, tend to add tactical depth. See post #7 above. I sincerely hope that you can look beyond the drawbacks of a grid based system and see all the cool things that it can add to a game. There may come a time when someone develops a new free range might and magic game. Unfortunately for you, this is not that time. I don't see this as a big sticking point; this is a classic might and magic game and I am OK with that. Let's see what the Devs can do with this system before we waste much time dwelling on might have beens.

Deadguy118
08-20-2013, 07:41 AM
The game is fundamentally designed around a grid and turn-based combat. They're not changing it. If you want Might and Magic VI-IX, play those again. Other than it maybe being a bit stilted (you could probably stand to move at a faster clip, a la Grimrock), I have no problems with what I've played so far in that regard.

Of course, I also finished World of Xeen earlier this year, so I'm clearly used to Might and Magic games on a grid.

Gerugon
08-20-2013, 07:56 AM
I realy like the tile based movement, makes it feel more like an oldschool game and thats a step in the right direction. Most modern games are way to easy and make sure that even the most stupid player can win easiliy, that makes it a slap in the face for every serious gamer.

melv1t
08-20-2013, 08:13 AM
The number of the squares turns these turn-based combats into card game with 3d animation. This is stupid. No difference in speed of player and enemies, max range between you and enemy 4-5 squares.. No tacticts at all. Devs simply made their life easier. Once it was a necessity, now they introduce it as a feature. Why don't they make normal battlefields like 10x10 at least? But it looks like in early 90s! Worth it!

And i'm really furious about the grid INSIDE town. WHY?! Because of two combats? I tried to find blacksmith (didn't remenber the exact place) yesterday.. It took me 20 minutes minimum and two or three ""rests".

I am angry and upset.

hroatgar
08-20-2013, 08:18 AM
The problem is that the M&M series evolved into a first-person shouter with turn-based engine. Changing this game by going back in the pass and switching it back to grid-like game is frustrating in my opinion. They shouldn't have called this game M&M X... because this not M&M anymore (sad face). Just make a new game... not a sequel that do not represent the real game.I don't know, call it Might & magic tactic or something. That way players wouldn't waste 30$ on a D&D game. yea Dungeons n Dragons x legacy that's what it is. Bye Bye kitting monsters and Bye Bye shouting arrows in angle. Seriously i only played 10 mins and closed the game. (Yep, when i saw that we were only able to shout projectile in front of us i Alt-f4ed)

WarBaby2
08-20-2013, 08:40 AM
I am angry and upset.

That much is evident. ;)

The grid based movement was a design decision and is working as intended, but: I agree that could be more fluent outside of combat and the that time is passing too fast in town at the moment.

samsenggwy
08-20-2013, 09:32 AM
Doesn't matter to me.
Movement, is just a way of traveling in games.

Why should RPG fans looking away from a great game just because dislike the movement type ?

Perhaps rational minded gamers are getting rare.

LeadStarDude.
08-20-2013, 09:36 AM
Doesn't matter to me.
Movement, is just a way of traveling in games.

Why should RPG fans looking away from a great game just because dislike the movement type ?

Perhaps rational minded gamers are getting rare.

No... more like rational minded developers are becoming rare.

WarBaby2
08-20-2013, 09:43 AM
No... more like rational minded developers are becoming rare.

There is nothing irrational with a design strategy that follows a certain goal... they wanted to recreate a classic, grid based dungeon crawler and they did, and the people who wnated that are pleased... more or less. ;)

LeadStarDude.
08-20-2013, 09:51 AM
There is nothing irrational with a design strategy that follows a certain goal... they wanted to recreate a classic, grid based dungeon crawler and they did, and the people who wnated that are pleased... more or less. ;)

Would it kill them to add a hot key that turns the turn based movement on & off at the very least? That would make exploration easier & the game better for everyone. :)

samsenggwy
08-20-2013, 09:52 AM
The developers actually has reason for this.

https://mightandmagicx-legacy.ubi.com/opendev/blog/post/view/51c9af34888ef6f23c000000
That’s something we couldn’t ignore. Our conclusion was that getting back to free movement could make sense for future installments, but didn’t seem to be the best move for the first Might & Magic RPG in ten years. We had to go back to the roots first: tile-based, turn-based, old-school all the way!

The developers are MM fans too. From their point of views, this game should be Grid Base due to the distance between now and last Grid Base M&M(M&M 5) is getting further.
After Legacy released, If the developers want to create MM 11 with free movement, I will not surprise.

LeadStarDude.
08-20-2013, 09:55 AM
The developers actually has reason for this.

https://mightandmagicx-legacy.ubi.com/opendev/blog/post/view/51c9af34888ef6f23c000000
That’s something we couldn’t ignore. Our conclusion was that getting back to free movement could make sense for future installments, but didn’t seem to be the best move for the first Might & Magic RPG in ten years. We had to go back to the roots first: tile-based, turn-based, old-school all the way!

The developers are MM fans too. From their point of views, this game should be Grid Base due to the distance between now and last Grid Base M&M(M&M 5) is getting further.
After Legacy released, If the developers want to create MM 11 with free movement, I will not surprise.

Fair enough. Do you think we could talk them into adding a hot key to turn the turn based movement on & off for this game?

Aeon1977
08-20-2013, 10:05 AM
The problem is that the M&M series evolved into a first-person shouter with turn-based engine. Changing this game by going back in the pass and switching it back to grid-like game is frustrating in my opinion. They shouldn't have called this game M&M X... because this not M&M anymore (sad face). Just make a new game... not a sequel that do not represent the real game.I don't know, call it Might & magic tactic or something. That way players wouldn't waste 30$ on a D&D game. yea Dungeons n Dragons x legacy that's what it is. Bye Bye kitting monsters and Bye Bye shouting arrows in angle. Seriously i only played 10 mins and closed the game. (Yep, when i saw that we were only able to shout projectile in front of us i Alt-f4ed)

What were MM I - V back then? NO Might & Magic games? Not the REAL games? :confused:

melv1t
08-20-2013, 10:49 AM
What were MM I - V back then? NO Might & Magic games? Not the REAL games? :confused:
You quoted a man. who told you, that they EVOLVED.

I dislike tiles. Dislike it because there is no STRATEGY in this game, just tacticts. I hate corridors with 1 grid/tile width. WTF is that?! Make normal battlefields.

And still no one said a word about the form of the tiles. SQUARE? REALLY? No diagonal movement, no diagonal shooting, 1 enemy infront. But easier, less troubles and soooooo oldschool.
-Why did you SCREW UP? - NWC&3DO did it with MMIX, it's soooo oldschooool.

Pankratz1980
08-20-2013, 01:29 PM
You quoted a man. who told you, that they EVOLVED.


No. They CHANGED. Free movement is DIFFERENT, NOT necessarily BETTER. Would chess become better if you abandoned the grid board? No, it would be a different game.

World of Xeen's combat system was much more tactical and satisfying than the one in MM6 onwards, thanks to the tile-based gameplay.
Limbic won't change the fundamental gameplay structure already in place, no amount of complaining will change that. Future MM games MIGHT return to the freeform movement, but if they do, here's hoping the turn based combat will be retained at least, like in MM6-9 (with improvements, of course).

Aeon1977
08-20-2013, 01:39 PM
No. They CHANGED. Free movement is DIFFERENT, NOT necessarily BETTER. Would chess become better if you abandoned the grid board? No, it would be a different game.

World of Xeen's combat system was much more tactical and satisfying than the one in MM6 onwards, thanks to the tile-based gameplay.
Limbic won't change the fundamental gameplay structure already in place, no amount of complaining will change that. Future MM games MIGHT return to the freeform movement, but if they do, here's hoping the turn based combat will be retained at least, like in MM6-9 (with improvements, of course).

+ 1 to that. MMVI quickly became a ranged attack FPS shootfest, this felt different and even distracting to some. 3do wanted to widen the playerbase, to make it accessible to more than the hardcore rpg enthusiasts. The results are clearly readable on the board in form of the haters.

Maomor
08-20-2013, 02:24 PM
The grid based design is a tribute to oldschool, so they won't change it.

Nevertheless it is wrong to think that grid design is easier to implement, nor does it offer better tactics. Just look at all the weird workarounds for combat (e.g. diagonal tiles excluded in magical area combat etc.). It's completely unnatural and sometimes even stupid. It would have been possible without a grid-based system and even easier to implement. There are tools for the Unity engine which allow to enable and disable areas of navigation grids dynamically. But that wasn't the point of this "Legacy".

The unfortunate thing here is that modders can hardly change the tile based system at all. Every NPC and enemy action, combat and movement behavior is based on this grid-system. In order to mod this out, one would need to dump all existing movement and combat scripts, and then re-implement all these behaviors themselves completely from scratch, including adding and configuring 3rd party navigation tools to each existing map.

Such a task can only be accomplished by people with lots of time. And even then, they would be better of not trying to convert the existing game maps into it, but create their own story-addon with custom levels and custom action scripts. This would be possible. So, I'd guess modders could create new freeroam-Wizardry8-like games with the toolkit, but not change the existing game.

forgottenl
08-20-2013, 03:30 PM
Fair enough. Do you think we could talk them into adding a hot key to turn the turn based movement on & off for this game?

You should go to the link and read completely what the developers write there. It is not as simple as an on/off toggle. They would have to reprogram the way monsters move if they want free based movement.

fbdbh
08-20-2013, 05:39 PM
Okay, the discussion should EVOLVE.

It's not about whether it's grid or not grid, but how well is this style implemented? Seeing the game, it has issues. The spider dungeon shows that it's not a very complex space designed for tactical movement. It's perfectly linear. A corridor, mostly.

So, let's be okay with grid based movement, folks, because that's what we're getting. Question is, can we help the devs making it better? It's very clumsy right now.

Maomor
08-20-2013, 06:24 PM
I just watched an hour long gameplay from "Demiath" on youtube, and although I thought the tile based movement is acceptable... it's actually not.

It looks awful on various occasions. In the video one can clearly see, how some enemies walk around weird zick-zack paths and half circles (all in tiles) to reach the player party. During that zick-zack movement they cannot attack and you cannot attack. Sometimes it even seems the enemy does not know which zick-zack path it shall go. It looks especially stupid and nonsense on open fields.

Of course that is all part of tile-based movement, but let's be real: the oldschool games had this movement, because the levels were all layrinths with narrow paths. There was no other choice for movement, than zick-zack. It was "natural" in that case and therefore the zick-zack didn't look weird. It was appropriate to the level design! The same happened on Grimrock: it didn't look weird, because it was again only zick-zack labyrinths.

But here in Might & Magic X you have a naturally formed environment. Open fields with wide space. And here the zick-zack movement just looks unnatural and out of place. I'm sorry, but it just doesn't fit and really breaks some immersion. A movement like in Wizardry 8 would have been much more appropriate :nonchalance:

fbdbh
08-20-2013, 06:29 PM
That's the difference between MM3-5 and this: in previous games, the movement of the monsters from tile to tile was instant. Here they turn around (wanted to say f--- around, more to the point), slowly crawl from tile to tile... it's not very dynamic.

Maomor
08-20-2013, 06:43 PM
Yeah, the crawling speed is also something to discuss. Wizardry 8 had a similar problem with slow acting enemies. The slow movement might be nice and clear on the beginning, but once you stepped over the learning curve you want the combat to speed up. It's awesome how they achieved this in MM6 with hundreds of enemies.

fbdbh
08-20-2013, 07:00 PM
Yeah, the crawling speed is also something to discuss. Wizardry 8 had a similar problem with slow acting enemies. The slow movement might be nice and clear on the beginning, but once you stepped over the learning curve you want the combat to speed up. It's awesome how they achieved this in MM6 with hundreds of enemies.

MM6 very quickly became easy. 3 pary members learn sparks, and its a massacre.

hroatgar
08-20-2013, 07:04 PM
The grid based design is a tribute to oldschool, so they won't change it.

Nevertheless it is wrong to think that grid design is easier to implement, nor does it offer better tactics. Just look at all the weird workarounds for combat (e.g. diagonal tiles excluded in magical area combat etc.). It's completely unnatural and sometimes even stupid. It would have been possible without a grid-based system and even easier to implement. There are tools for the Unity engine which allow to enable and disable areas of navigation grids dynamically. But that wasn't the point of this "Legacy".

The unfortunate thing here is that modders can hardly change the tile based system at all. Every NPC and enemy action, combat and movement behavior is based on this grid-system. In order to mod this out, one would need to dump all existing movement and combat scripts, and then re-implement all these behaviors themselves completely from scratch, including adding and configuring 3rd party navigation tools to each existing map.

Such a task can only be accomplished by people with lots of time. And even then, they would be better of not trying to convert the existing game maps into it, but create their own story-addon with custom levels and custom action scripts. This would be possible. So, I'd guess modders could create new freeroam-Wizardry8-like games with the toolkit, but not change the existing game.

I am a software engineer and i can confirm that implementing a game with tile based movements is way easier than free movement like we can see in a FPS (but both are still easy imo).
In my opinion, i repeat, in my opinion, i don't think this is all about "going back to root", i think there is also a bit of laziness in that too.

I can also confirm that changing the core of the game, in this case the movement engine, would require to change so many things(map style, npc behavior, fighting engine, etc) that its almost impossible to even hope for a change. Especially that they already released the early access beta.

Maomor
08-20-2013, 07:42 PM
I agree that it's too late to change the core mechanics. But this is it! @fbdbh already hinted the solution :

Maybe it's the slow speed which draws it down. Only due to the slow movement one has enough time to rant about zick-zack movement and combat crawling. Maybe a quicker speed would make the player don't notice this so much. The player himself has unlimited time to think about his actions anyways. Following things from the enemies should be fastened up:

1) Enemy Movement speed
2) Enemy Animation speed

Both must be fastened up. And by that I really mean much faster. At best a slider in the menu options ranging from normal speed to lightning fast. Also the time delay between enemy turns should be minimal. This was an issue in Wizardry 8: there was always 0.5-1 second pause in between each enemy turn, which was unbearable over time, although it sounds less.

The current speed of magical attacks, ranged attack, particle emitters seem fast enough though. Of course an optional speed up wouldn't be bad either.

TaiGeXMark
08-20-2013, 08:18 PM
I enjoy the turn based movement simply in combat and strictly combat alone. When I'm trying to explore the map, it shouldn't take me 6 day and night cycles just to finally see it all. It's very stressful the fact that they say they're not even up for negotiating about it. Personally, I believe MM7 was the best one they ever made and from the looks of this, probably ever will be. If the could at least hear people out on the tile based movement, I'd be a happy man considering in this day and age, every game (that comes to mind), is a 3D free roam nower days. The tile/turn based system just seems old and flat now.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the turn based for it requires more skill to defeat enemies, but it's just seaming so flat to me right now.



-In an age of modern 3D programming makes the game feel out of date and poorly developed
-Will make interaction with small portions of the environment impossible in any real way
-Negates the value of exploration in a game arguably based on travel and adventuring

I completely agree.

fbdbh
08-20-2013, 08:36 PM
Both must be fastened up. And by that I really mean much faster. At best a slider in the menu options ranging from normal speed to lightning fast. Also the time delay between enemy turns should be minimal. This was an issue in Wizardry 8: there was always 0.5-1 second pause in between each enemy turn, which was unbearable over time, although it sounds less.

The current speed of magical attacks, ranged attack, particle emitters seem fast enough though. Of course an optional speed up wouldn't be bad either.

Speeding up is a tricky thing: it shouldn't be unnatural. I mean, if you speed up the current animation as is, it's gonna be slapstick comedy. It needs finer and more complex reprogramming, I'm afraid.

FranBurns
08-20-2013, 08:50 PM
Speeding up is a tricky thing: it shouldn't be unnatural. I mean, if you speed up the current animation as is, it's gonna be slapstick comedy. It needs finer and more complex reprogramming, I'm afraid.

I personally don't care if it looks like Benny Hill, it would greatly improve the pacing of the game.

fbdbh
08-20-2013, 08:55 PM
It's advisable to implement such an option, if nothing else is possible at the moment, yes. But I would really appreciate if the developers found a way to pace everything a little better and still maintain a serious approach.

Might & Magic was always a quick paced action RPG, despite what the overall image of the franchise suggest (grid / turn based) to new players, and the difference shows right now. I think I can say that combat is almost as slow as Wizardry 8.

HorrorScopeX
08-21-2013, 04:42 AM
I'm good either way, but I prefer how Wiz 8/MM7 did it. It is free movement until combat is engaged and then it is turn based. Just more open that way.

What I find most important is how the combat UI is improved from the old school games these games derive from. I love turn based, but I also want choices for each character to be quick, highlight target and one click cast/swing. To me that is what is needed for new old school. Elegant, quick turn based UI.

I'd also love me some coop, even if one person controlled the movement of the party, in combat we all have our own character. I know a lot of people don't get this, but Table Top PnP works similar and isn't a fast endeavor player to player, but is still beloved. Not sure why the Computer World is scared on recreating DnD in full on as a videogame. It is all there to be had. Original Sin perhaps will be the closest.

Maomor
08-21-2013, 07:07 PM
Speeding up is a tricky thing: it shouldn't be unnatural. I mean, if you speed up the current animation as is, it's gonna be slapstick comedy. It needs finer and more complex reprogramming, I'm afraid.

Yes, agreed. But otherwise it gets cumbersome soon... the greatest disadvantage from turn based games. In Wizardry 8 there was a tool which accelerated so fast - that enemy movement in fact looked like a slapstick comedy. Like in a horror movie, where the monster moved its feet multiple times per second. But you got used to it quickly, as you didn't spend so much time watching the snail actions of the enemy, and instead had more time to play yourself. In the end this is what many players want, once they mastered the learning curve and want to progress faster.

rowboy85
08-21-2013, 07:47 PM
I'm a huge fan of the might and magic franchise. 6 and 7 were my favorite. But playing x legacy is painful. The movement is slow, immersion breaking, and tedious. I'm ok with grid movement in combat, although its better without it. In town and while exploring its aweful. As a fan I've been very sad to tell them not to buy it unless things change.

dudedavid
08-21-2013, 09:22 PM
I'm a huge fan of the might and magic franchise. 6 and 7 were my favorite. But playing x legacy is painful. The movement is slow, immersion breaking, and tedious. I'm ok with grid movement in combat, although its better without it. In town and while exploring its aweful. As a fan I've been very sad to tell them not to buy it unless things change.

Totally agree but looks like dev is not considering this like an option.
Dunno why... we are in 2013 guys. Come on.
Ok turn based combat but I preferred chosing. Let me choose.

gainer_titans
08-21-2013, 10:50 PM
I like the grid based play. World of Xeen remains one of my favorite games of all time and I am pleased they are going back to this style.It is different and makes combat a little more tactical instead of spamming attacks. You have to think about what you are doing. I just wish as they can do more with it. I think it is ok, just needs refinement. For instance, in World of Xeen you could kick down walls to reveal treasures or bust through doors where enemies are hiding.You could walk into traps that would hurt you very badly. You had to figure out ways around them or use magic to get past them i.e teleport or jump. The map system was very detailed. I could look up and see on the map and easily identify the places I have been and not been. It is a little opac in this version so far.
Another problem I think is that it looks very open world when it isn't. For instance, in the spider dungeon there was a water way that it looked like I can get to but couldn't because of the grid format. It looked very inviting and I wanted to explore however, some invisible wall would not let me. I guess my complaint is if you are going with the old school format take advantage of the format. More traps, more puzzles, more ambushes(i.e click on something you should not clickon and you are surrounded by 40 monsters). If it looks like I can get to it in some way I should. Also more crazy stuff.(rope to cloud city anyone!)
Any devolpment style is good just depends on how it is implemented. The developers chose this style and they are not going back. So like it or not it is here to stay. It still needs refinement, however, the great thing is it is not completed so there is still room for improvement on this.

Annatar2013
08-21-2013, 11:14 PM
For instance, in the spider dungeon there was a water way that it looked like I can get to but couldn't because of the grid format. It looked very inviting and I wanted to explore however, some invisible wall would not let me.
Maybe you just dont have swimming skill?

Zuxell2011
08-22-2013, 02:03 AM
I think they should add the option for free movement in the settings. This game should have grid based turning, optional free movement, & optional turn based game play.

samsenggwy
08-22-2013, 02:49 AM
I think they should add the option for free movement in the settings. This game should have grid based turning, optional free movement, & optional turn based game play.

NAH !! You didn't sounds like people that with programming and development experience. This is not Fallout tactic.

The developer should only polish more on the grid based game play, such as smoother/faster movement.
The developer stated MMX must be grid based because this is the root of MM especially MMX is the first MM in last 10 years.
The next one is more likely to be free movement (Which doesn't matter to me because I only appreciate great RPG regardless of movement type).

llathander
08-22-2013, 03:31 AM
Ill add my two cents. I love the might and magic series, I really do. I started at Isles of Terra, and witnessed it peak at the Mandate of Heaven. 7 and 8 werent so bad,, I just felt they didnt deliver what 6 did. Fine, lots of you will disagree with me here, but, the reason I thought that 6 added so much with its free movement is that it allowed you to adopt strategies both in and out of combat(if you were willing to figure them out) that would normally be unavailable to you by a rigid system. Anyone remember flying over Paradise valley/Dragonsands/Hermit's Isle etc... casting telekineses on those shiny boxes? Not only that, ill provide one benefit (combat related), but it allowed both you and your enemies to dodge, or luckily scurry away from attacks. Now I have been playing this early access for a few hours-- and Ive been maintaining one thought the entire time-- that being that, if this movement system is actually supposed to be responsible for maintaining the nostalgia, then why so few skills? Why is every spider dropping an antidote? You remember getting poisoned and just having to deal with it? I hate to say it, but the devs seem to be invoking the nostalgia card where it is most convenient for them. I really hate to say that, I bought this game the INSTANT I saw it on steam. Ill finish on my biggest gripe; I think it has already been said on this thread that the grid system was a limitation of technology, not a feature. I realize they wont change it at this point, I just find it to be a shame.

samsenggwy
08-22-2013, 04:13 AM
So grid system is a limitation.

Age Of Wonders, Civilizations, XCom..... developers of these game are idiots and stupid?
Grid System is mutually exclusive with Free Movement.
Just like Real Time vs Turn Based.
Neither choice are stupid or wiser !!! Yet choice have to made.

Grid Base is a design choice. Some design is mutually exclusive.
Example,
Starcraft, Red Alert taking a real time approach mean it will ditch the turn based approach.
Legend Of Grimrock chose to use grid system. This change the game play and strategy.
If Legend Of Grimrock chose to use free movement. NO PROBLEM ! Because it will offer different gameplay and strategy !
NO CHOICES are good or bad. Yet 1 of the choices must be choose (odd english huh?).

NOT BECAUSE IT IS A LIMITATION !

Remember that when you voicing your complaints. There are people having exactly opposite opinions.
Quote from http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/787149-Man-I-really-wish-I-could-get-my-money-back?p=9221488

the game was created with grid in mind, it cant be turned off, its impposible, is it possible in Gears of wars to ride a kart and throw shells and bananas? no, because thats a different game and thats called mario Kart.
So if you like free movement, go play Skyrim
If you like grid base RPG, play grimrock, MMX or grimrock2.

For what is worth , we, the lovers of grid base RPGs, dont have much choices nowadays, but the lovers of free movement of RPG you guys have PLENTY of RPGs games available, go play those, thanks.
Can you hear the grid system fans crying?

For the MMX skills. The developers translate non-combat skills into new mechanic. If this is the reason you are asking "why so little skills"
LASTLY, this is still pre-alpha man. Antidote from spider can be remove if make enough sense in this forum (Not just by your comment).

Mogadil
08-22-2013, 11:25 AM
I realy like the tile based movement, makes it feel more like an oldschool game and thats a step in the right direction. Most modern games are way to easy and make sure that even the most stupid player can win easiliy, that makes it a slap in the face for every serious gamer.
Exactly!

True Exploring is only possible with tiles. I have visited each and every tile in World of Xeen (exept the ones killing the whole party) in every map of the games.
And I am doing it again in this game! Only with tiles I feel I have seen the whole map. I like that.

HEF2011
08-22-2013, 02:19 PM
So grid system is a limitation.

Age Of Wonders, Civilizations, XCom..... developers of these game are idiots and stupid?
Grid System is mutually exclusive with Free Movement.
Just like Real Time vs Turn Based.
Neither choice are stupid or wiser !!! Yet choice have to made.

Grid Base is a design choice. Some design is mutually exclusive.
Example,
Starcraft, Red Alert taking a real time approach mean it will ditch the turn based approach.
Legend Of Grimrock chose to use grid system. This change the game play and strategy.
If Legend Of Grimrock chose to use free movement. NO PROBLEM ! Because it will offer different gameplay and strategy !
NO CHOICES are good or bad. Yet 1 of the choices must be choose (odd english huh?).

NOT BECAUSE IT IS A LIMITATION !

Remember that when you voicing your complaints. There are people having exactly opposite opinions.
Quote from http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/787149-Man-I-really-wish-I-could-get-my-money-back?p=9221488

the game was created with grid in mind, it cant be turned off, its impposible, is it possible in Gears of wars to ride a kart and throw shells and bananas? no, because thats a different game and thats called mario Kart.
So if you like free movement, go play Skyrim
If you like grid base RPG, play grimrock, MMX or grimrock2.

For what is worth , we, the lovers of grid base RPGs, dont have much choices nowadays, but the lovers of free movement of RPG you guys have PLENTY of RPGs games available, go play those, thanks.
Can you hear the grid system fans crying?

For the MMX skills. The developers translate non-combat skills into new mechanic. If this is the reason you are asking "why so little skills"
LASTLY, this is still pre-alpha man. Antidote from spider can be remove if make enough sense in this forum (Not just by your comment).







You are correct.

Quantumspitfire
08-24-2013, 11:49 AM
I think they should add the option for free movement in the settings. This game should have grid based turning, optional free movement, & optional turn based game play. Until all of this is fixed the game play really sucks. I love the graphics & depth, but this grid based movement sytem is simply crap.

I totally agree, this is disgusting, maybe if you are a 1 APM (Action per minute) person, but most players are (20 - 60 apm) these days for most games, 20 being noobs 60 being okay people with cases of starcraft players going to 300+ apm. Now I know this game is casual and all but I don't wish to damage my keyboard when I fall straight asleep on it.

Quantumspitfire
08-24-2013, 11:53 AM
Pro:
-Causes combat to be far more tactical, as opposed to the boring easymode as seen in MM6-9
-Maximizes realistic terrain usage and minimizes scummy "playstyles" that are little more than AI exploits (Minotaurs in doors, looking at you MM7; Attacking enemies that can't attack you and can't do a thing about it, looking at you MM6). This helps immersion a ton. Nothing breaks immersion quicker than the MM6-8 style of 45328756385 enemies swarming you like zombies without a brain, then getting stuck by a cliff.
-Maximizes experimentation with actual tactics, because the game designers can focus on battle strategy and monster abilities, as opposed to having to constantly test for the newest AI exploits which in turn would cheapen combat.

Con:
-makes combat harder for terrible players, because AI exploiting isn't as easy and players will have to actually learn the enemies. Many modern gamers are incapable of doing this, and thus will complain. You can already see it happening.



That's nonsense, of course. You should rephrase it to
-In the age of modern 3D programming, this is perfectly appropriate.

Several of your cons are actually merely taste - for example, for many people, turn/grid based *adds* immersion, while going realtime would break it, simply due to monster behavior. Similarly, grid based gameplay usually is considered the most rewarding for exploration. This is why nobody really cares for the exploration in MM9, while people LOVE exploring the Etrian Odyssey games.

All in all, grid/turn based makes for a better game overall, after all, it directly leads to deeper GAMEPLAY. You know, the meat of a GAME. Gameplay should not be dictated by 1337 EFFEXTXTX or PHAT GRAPHIXXX, just because you CAN have fluid 3D movement doesn't mean you have to have it. Graphics are an OPTION in the game maker's toolbox, not a requirement.
The argument itself is ludicrous, akin to whining that Schindler's List didn't have Explosions and Space Battles, and therefore, Schindler's List must be terrible, because in this day and age, special effects are good enough to have them. It's nonsense.

As a rule, turn based combat always has deeper combat - it's simply a consequence of how turn based combat is set up. Real-time/free roamning cannot have combat as deep, and never will. Therefore, grid based is the way to go for a game that wants to focus on combat and strategy. It's simply a better design choice, even though people who only know new games may not be able to handle it well. This is okay - games don't need to appeal to everyone.
For people that want exploration without a grid, single-character games akin to Dark Souls are a much better pick because those games actually have design choices that compliment the real-time nature of the combat - but those games aren't Might and Magic and, more importantly, wouldn't work anywhere near as well as they do with a party.

You can't have it both ways, I'm afraid.



This I agree with - that is the one thing that should be changed, alongside not having to wait for animations of invisible enemies.



Not just that. There's also games like the Etrian Odyssey games - which will be mentioned in most recommended rpgs for the (3)DS lists. Grid/turn based just adds tactical options that would be missing in a real time game :)

This is not useful feedback, clearly you haven't played a game more recent than 1980 and think this movement is good. You are stupid. The minotaur point is completely moronic, do you really think if you removed this grid movement and allowed free movement minotaurs will go back to getting stuck? Did you say free moving is for low skill players? Okay, please I would like you to go and play against Call of Duty or Battlefield 3 players and wipe their faces on the ground with your amazing grid based 30 minutes to make a decision style. The old series 6-9 were fine with free movement and made it seem tile-like simply with the addition of turn based combat.

Quantumspitfire
08-24-2013, 11:57 AM
I realy like the tile based movement, makes it feel more like an oldschool game and thats a step in the right direction. Most modern games are way to easy and make sure that even the most stupid player can win easiliy, that makes it a slap in the face for every serious gamer.

Grid based movement does not make you a serious player, no modern competitive game uses grid based movement and those people make a living off the skill they have playing games. Grid based allows you to take 30 minutes+ to decide which tile to move to, you can literally calculate each outcome, it's like Chess. Not serious, slow and boring.

Disgusting of you to call all normal people stupid. Look at yourself in the mirror...

Quantumspitfire
08-24-2013, 11:58 AM
One thing I don't understand about all this uproar over grid vs. smooth turn. What makes you think that it would be so easy to just up and switch at this point? Some of you talk like it's as easy as the Devs tossing a button in and HEY! Free movement!

Buddy it doesn't work that way. The whole game is built on that design, and folks are going to have to get used to it. It's not going anywhere. Just because this is early release doesn't mean this game has not been in development for some time. Grid based is a deliberate and perfectly valid design decision that was made early on in the development process. All the gameplay to date has been designed around this. You can't just up and change it to free range without scrapping the majority of the work done on the project to date.

As someone who has played more than my fair share of turn based dungeon crawlers, I can tell you that some of my favorites have been on the grid. Modern games are still made this way. It does, in fact, tend to add tactical depth. See post #7 above. I sincerely hope that you can look beyond the drawbacks of a grid based system and see all the cool things that it can add to a game. There may come a time when someone develops a new free range might and magic game. Unfortunately for you, this is not that time. I don't see this as a big sticking point; this is a classic might and magic game and I am OK with that. Let's see what the Devs can do with this system before we waste much time dwelling on might have beens.

i really do hope that you're right and it becomes a more appealing system..

Quantumspitfire
08-24-2013, 12:00 PM
The problem is that the M&M series evolved into a first-person shouter with turn-based engine. Changing this game by going back in the pass and switching it back to grid-like game is frustrating in my opinion. They shouldn't have called this game M&M X... because this not M&M anymore (sad face). Just make a new game... not a sequel that do not represent the real game.I don't know, call it Might & magic tactic or something. That way players wouldn't waste 30$ on a D&D game. yea Dungeons n Dragons x legacy that's what it is. Bye Bye kitting monsters and Bye Bye shouting arrows in angle. Seriously i only played 10 mins and closed the game. (Yep, when i saw that we were only able to shout projectile in front of us i Alt-f4ed)

i so agree with you, wtf, we played HOURS the last 4 of these games (sure MM9 wasn't the best thing ever but w/e) and now we have to switch to this ancient 1980s style? This better change quick or I want my money back.I was so excited when I found out about MM10 but this is ridiculous.

Quantumspitfire
08-24-2013, 12:01 PM
Doesn't matter to me.
Movement, is just a way of traveling in games.

Why should RPG fans looking away from a great game just because dislike the movement type ?

Perhaps rational minded gamers are getting rare.

Yes you're killing off rational minded players with this stupid comment.

jcannonb
08-24-2013, 02:15 PM
I absolutely love the movement system they have employed.

It is old school enough to be nostalgic and it is fluid enough to be considered more 3D and modern.

This was the game that LoG wanted to be. The combat in LoG was too mechanical. All of the enemies attacked at the same time. They all moved in unison. This system is much more life like than LoG was.

This game in my opinion does live up to its name 'Legacy' it is a true successor for MM4/5. MM 4/5 was the seminal work for this franchise. I am glad to see they are back to their old roots.

A face lift on a perfectly fine system of mechanics is a refreshing change. This feels like a real game. Not work, and not like it is trying to be the pretty cool kid on the block.

This game has the makings of being something very classy and refined.

zinho1973
08-24-2013, 03:42 PM
I love turn base for combat and hate it for exploration. In a Dungeon you can mostly get by with turn-based grid movement all the time because of the constraints of the environment. In open areas and cities it often feels clunky and very slow.

A realy good help for Grid systems is a great map, with everything clearly labeled and the "walls" very clearly defined, to avoid backtracking and confusion with the environmment. In a pinch, this is a solution of sorts.

samsenggwy
08-24-2013, 08:03 PM
So rational gamer must look heavily toward movement type in MMX then disregard the RPG aspect gameplay?

Am I a moron just because I can enjoy past MM regardless of movement type? I also enjoy Skyrim, Starcraft 2, Borderlands, Etrian Oddysey, and LOG.
Complaining about the movement type is like complaining Starcraft is not turn based.
If the product is not what you want why purchased it then complain?

The developer stated MMX must back to the root. And they hinted the next MM after MMX likely to be free movement.
Grid Based or Free Movement. Each has own strategies, neither are for stupid or smart. But developer can only choose 1.
Is just like Starcraft series choose to be real time so turn based lover might not like it. (In MMX case it is grid based movement)

So do I still have right to talk here just because I am fine with any movement? :nonchalance:

Pulhra
08-24-2013, 09:30 PM
Personally, I think the grid based movement is fine... and it's a bas design concept not up for discussion anyhow... BUT, it should be more fluent outside of combat, meaning: As long as you are exploring, you should move seamless from tile to tile without stopping, as is LoG.

Couldn't have put it better myself. I do hope they plan to polish out of combat movement, it's so clunky it feels like i'm hitting my head against something soft as I move past each tile and it's mighty annoying...

abcdefgqwerty
08-25-2013, 05:10 AM
The main base of might and magic is people that played 6 and 7 not the earlier games. Free movement was in those games so if you want turn based fine have that but at least give the option for normal movement just like in might and magic 6. Again MM6 and 7 did it all right just follow them exactly because movement is the right area to start getting creative.
In combat in MM 6 enemies and your movement were grid based I guess so keep that, but after battle grid movement makes no sense at all. Again follow MM 6 there is a reason a lot of people liked it.

abcdefgqwerty
08-25-2013, 05:16 AM
Maybe im wrong here but if you made the game free movement like MM 6 to begin with wouldnt adding an option for this grid movement be pretty easy to add relatively speaking? Its basically just artificially stopping you after so many tiles. I hated this grid movement 20 years ago and I still hate it today. Its beyond silly for any modern game to have it just for the sake of old games did it.

amosli
08-25-2013, 05:30 PM
I just bought the game, probably 5 minutes after I saw it on steam and without reading about it first. M&M6 is the first RPG I ever played and because of it I've become addicted to these games. This tile based 90 degree turn movement system is excruciating to me. People here say it's old school and a choice of implementation but truth is, it started of as a technology limitation, nothing more than that. You can love it for whatever reason you do but to say the games were developed like this as a choice is simply not true.
I love exploring the in game world completely, I feel as though I'm going to a new place and exploring it, that's what attracted me to RPGs in the first place, this grid movement just took the biggest advantage of RPGs (for me) and made it a disadvantage, I want to freely explore the world and see everything, not move to a tile, look around and then move to another tile just to do the same, it feels unnatural in the worst kind of way.
Chess is a game with 64 squares, I love Chess, a computer 3d game is not Chess or Chess like.

Anyway, from extreme happiness to utter disappointment in the span of 30 minutes or so it took me to download the game from steam. I wish I could get my money back....

nostre83
12-13-2013, 10:17 PM
M&M6 was the first RPG I've ever played and I totaly love the series. I've even recently played M&M6, M&M7 and M&M8 again, so when I noticed M&M10 I just bought it immediately. Unfortunately the grid system is taking all the fun from the game... I hope it can be changed till the release, otherwise I've just wasted 30$.

SadFerret
12-14-2013, 09:51 AM
Wold you people please stop beating this dead horse already? This game is not going to turn into another MM6, this is the way it's going to be. The only thing this *****ing is doing is wasting your time, discourage the devs and annoy the rest of us who want the kind of game they're doing, so just give it a rest already. If you don't have any constructive feedback to give, don't fill the forum with this pointless ****.

damianjcoles
12-22-2013, 07:10 AM
Pro-

None

Cons-

* Annoys the MM6-9 crowd out of playing it. Lose money because of it.
* Fans of MM4-5 soon realise it was all nostalgia and grid-based gaming in a MM world is restrictive and mind-blowingly stupid. Then they'll complain that it isn't like the old M+M because it's a disaster. When in fact it is a fantastic sequel to MM4-5, which is why it will be a disaster.
* While players who enjoy grid-based gaming can also enjoy open-world gaming, the same can't be said the other way round. Open-world gamers HATE tile-based play. And for a franchise that depends entirely on its fanbase to buy the newer versions of its games (very few new gamers come to M+M or HOMM at this stage), it's taking a big risk to alienate a lot of those fans.

LegacyForTheWin
12-22-2013, 02:20 PM
Its really funny how they all continue to argue against grid although the decision that there will not be free movement has been made and communicated a VERY VERY LONG time ago.

So for all guys who somehow were not able to read those statements I think I do us and you a favour and give you a quick summary here:
THIS GAME WILL COME OUT IN 4 WEEKS AND WILL BE GRID BASED NO MATTER WHAT YOU SAY!

Understood?

Aeon1977
12-22-2013, 03:23 PM
Fans of MM4-5 soon realise it was all nostalgia and grid-based gaming in a MM world is restrictive and mind-blowingly stupid.


This is the biggest ******* Iīve read on this cesspit of a forum since a long time. Seriously. And thereīs a lot (!) of ****** being posted here...

SadFerret
12-22-2013, 06:34 PM
Gotta love people pretending like they speak for everyone, or know what you like better than you do. I have just finished two grid-based RPGs (Lands of Lore, which is old, and Elminage, which is new) and enjoyed both of them very much.

Grid-based RPGs have become a thing now, and not just for the people with nostalgia. Series like Etrian Odyssey are relatively popular, and most of its fan base have never played games like these before. I don't know how well you people follow console releases, but there are more and more grid-based RPGs being made and brought over from Japan. There's been a couple of new Etrians, Elminage: Original, Class of Heroes 2 and Unchained Blades that came out recently, and Demon Gaze is coming out next year for the Vita --it is very popular in Japan. Grid-based RPGs do have an audience, there's no doubt of that.

brbragequit
12-23-2013, 01:51 AM
Ah, Lands of Lore. I'm so sad that series died (along with all the other great franchises old Westwood sired). I didn't even think the last one was bad, despite all the heapings of scorn it got. It had some really great moments worked in there (especially the Command & Conquer post-apocalyptic hellscape plane).

damianjcoles
12-23-2013, 04:18 AM
THIS GAME WILL COME OUT IN 4 WEEKS AND WILL BE GRID BASED NO MATTER WHAT YOU SAY!

Understood?

THIS THREAD IS DISCUSSING THE PROS AND CONS OF THE GRID STYLE, SO NEGATIVES ARE GOING TO BE MENTIONED NO MATTER WHAT YOU SAY!

Understood?

damianjcoles
12-23-2013, 04:21 AM
This is the biggest ******** Iīve read on this cesspit of a forum since a long time. Seriously. And thereīs a lot (!) of ****** being posted here...

After 2 weeks of it being released, your tune will change. Either that or you'll be desperately holding onto your nostalgia so bad that you'll convince yourself that grid-style is the best thing for the M+M world.

damianjcoles
12-23-2013, 04:31 AM
Gotta love people pretending like they speak for everyone, or know what you like better than you do. I have just finished two grid-based RPGs (Lands of Lore, which is old, and Elminage, which is new) and enjoyed both of them very much.

Grid-based RPGs have become a thing now, and not just for the people with nostalgia. Series like Etrian Odyssey are relatively popular, and most of its fan base have never played games like these before. I don't know how well you people follow console releases, but there are more and more grid-based RPGs being made and brought over from Japan. There's been a couple of new Etrians, Elminage: Original, Class of Heroes 2 and Unchained Blades that came out recently, and Demon Gaze is coming out next year for the Vita --it is very popular in Japan. Grid-based RPGs do have an audience, there's no doubt of that.

If you read my comment more carefully you'll notice that I was referring to the M+M world adopting the grid-based system, NOT grid-based systems in general. I wish the best for Ubisoft that they will make successful HOMM and M+M games, but I don't think there's enough of a grid-based loving audience to make it as successful as it could be as an open world.

And before "LegacyForTheWin" comes in with his big red caps-locked letters, I know it's a grid based system and its not changing. I never said they could do that.

brbragequit
12-23-2013, 04:41 AM
After 2 weeks of it being released, your tune will change. Either that or you'll be desperately holding onto your nostalgia so bad that you'll convince yourself that grid-style is the best thing for the M+M world.

I know this is really hard to accept, but some people like things that you don't. If you try really hard, you might even be able to live in a world in which such things are true. MMXL is not for you, obviously. That doesn't mean someone else couldn't enjoy it.

Speaking for myself, I love the turn and grid-based gameplay as it exists in the current build, and it's only getting dramatically better in the release version which will have much quicker animation speeds.

damianjcoles
12-23-2013, 05:08 AM
Speaking for myself, I love the turn and grid-based gameplay as it exists in the current build, and it's only getting dramatically better in the release version which will have much quicker animation speeds.

Since mine and other's judgement of the grid-based style in MMXL is based upon its current state, are you suggesting that it will have to get dramatically better anyway? Are you happy with the state it's in then?

As for everyone else, honestly ask yourself what would obtain more sales for a Might and Magic game and achieve greater success: a grid-based M+M, or and open-world M+M?

GriffinKing
12-23-2013, 05:20 AM
From videos I've seen, it looks like the devs have created an open world, then stuck a grid on it, instead of starting with a grid and creating a world off of that. If you know what I mean.

Aeon1977
12-23-2013, 10:24 AM
After 2 weeks of it being released, your tune will change. Either that or you'll be desperately holding onto your nostalgia so bad that you'll convince yourself that grid-style is the best thing for the M+M world.

Grid based actually IS a part of the MM world, as I - V all had grid based systems. So the grid belongs to the series as well as the free moving type, you canīt deny that. In the end it is just a matter of taste if someone likes it or not, a subjective and personal matter of taste, not globally valid.
I could understand all the whining, if an MM game all of a sudden had an isometric view. Cause THAT never belonged to the MM world...

The approach to play a grid based game is just a completely different experience than playing free-moving. Itīs sort of an abstraction of moving in a world and gives just a complete different feel than moving freely, itīs more like playing a board game in first person. I like to play games of both styles of movement because I like the feeling of both. Both are just different, not per se better or worse than the other. Maybe it helps, if you played a lot of grid based rpg before to feel connected, but saying if someone likes to play the grid it will be just for mere nostalgia is completely wrong.
If someone started to play the series with MMVI then I can understand the dislike. But not all the plain egoistic hatred poured all over the board, as if Ubi betrayed the series or other sh*t like that.

People like me, who started with MMII (and played lots of other grid based games from Bardīs Tale I over Wizardry VII to Grimrock across the course of time) are used to the grid and can pull advantages from it. As well as from the free movement of the later games in the series. I have the strong feeling that the successor to MMX will have the free moving variant. And this is good too! Just another valid approach in a genre which is rather niche these days.

For my part, I look forward the release of MMX as I already had fun with the early access, despite its small flaws which seem to get polished for the final release. And when in letīs say two or three years, an MMXI comes out - with free movement - I will look forward to that as well.

damianjcoles
12-23-2013, 12:03 PM
Grid based actually IS a part of the MM world, as I - V all had grid based systems. So the grid belongs to the series as well as the free moving type, you canīt deny that.
I didn't say it wasn't a part of it, I questioned whether it was the best thing for MM going forward.


Maybe it helps, if you played a lot of grid based rpg before to feel connected, but saying if someone likes to play the grid it will be just for mere nostalgia is completely wrong.


I think I explained this before, but when I refer to the grid-based system, I only refer to it in terms of the MM games. And it's not wrong to say that people will support MMXL's grid-based system because of the nostalgia of previous games since it was adopted by DEVELOPERS who loved the early MM games and wanted to RECREATE the nostalgia of those games by putting it in a grid-based system (one of many things). So don't tell me people wont defend this system due to nostalgia when devs made it pretty clear they brought it in to the game for that exact reason.

SadFerret
12-23-2013, 08:13 PM
I think I explained this before, but when I refer to the grid-based system, I only refer to it in terms of the MM games. And it's not wrong to say that people will support MMXL's grid-based system because of the nostalgia of previous games since it was adopted by DEVELOPERS who loved the early MM games and wanted to RECREATE the nostalgia of those games by putting it in a grid-based system (one of many things). So don't tell me people wont defend this system due to nostalgia when devs made it pretty clear they brought it in to the game for that exact reason.

Just because the devs might feel nostalgia for this system doesn't mean it's the only reason they want to do it this way. Even if they did, it wouldn't mean everyone in the audience who likes it is defending it due to nostalgia. Even if they did, it would make very little difference WHY people are buying MMX, as long as they do.

MMX is not about pleasing the masses. It's a niche game, and it's supposed to be so. People tend to have this very misguided idea that more people you try to please, the bigger your profits will be. It's not that simple, and big companies like Ubisoft have started to see it. The mass market is oversaturated with expensive titles and it's very competitive, making it a very risk-heavy market. Most games that try to please that biggest mass of people never actually turn any profit. Meanwhile lots of indie/middleware titles that are cheap to produce are not making the same sort of profits as Grand Theft Auto, but at least they do make a profit. You can sell some tens of thousands of copies and still make money on a game like this. The whole point of it is to find a niche and target to that very small, specific audience with a cheaply made game. The only way you can do that is to offer something different than the big guns like Skyrim and Dragon Age.

MMX has never had a chance of getting a AAA budget. What do you think would have happened to the game if it was just another fantasy RPG on the market with this budget? It would just be lost in the shuffle. Offering a different kind of game experience is this game's 'angle', it's the thing that's got going for it. It's something for the old farts who have nostalgia for Xeen, those who never stopped liking grid-based games and are deprived at the moment, and for those newcomers who got into the genre via Grimrock and Etrian Odyssey and are looking for something similar (and yes, those people do exist. New gamers who have a newly discovered taste for this sort of thing). This is not a big market, but it doesn't need to be.

PriMercury
12-25-2013, 05:19 PM
Hey guys,

I just came here to say that I do not support the grid based movement. I am a HUGE fan of MM6 and 7, but probably won't buy this one because of this.
Althought I got Legend of Grimrock, to quench my thirst until Legacy came, that game takes place in a dungeon, so the lack of free movement was not that big of an issue
(although it is my biggest issue with the game).
Also, Legacy just doesn't look as good as the old ones (from the pictures and vids). Seems to have lost the charm. It's a shame.

Dear Ubisoft, please do a PROPER reboot of the series and I'll even get an early access. Can't be that hard imho, as all modern RPGs have free movement nowadays.

Breadmang
12-30-2013, 07:05 AM
Grid movement is fine, but it's far too slow.

I could move about 10 squares a second in MM3-5, travelling in a straight line just by holding down a key. In MM10 it's far slower due to the transition between grids.

That pretty much ruins the game for me.