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View Full Version : Combat in the "JUG" quoted from Lt. John Oliphint



XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 12:04 PM
Combat in the "Jug." My 40 combat-mission experiences in the P-47 Thunderbolt had proved to me that the "Jug" could take and deliver extensive damage. After escort missions, it was easy to "get lost," go to the deck and use the plane's eight .50-caliber machine guns and ammo to their best advantage. A touch of the trigger would cut an enemy plane in half, tear out an engine, or cut off a wing; it would leave a truck loaded with soldiers with nothing recognizable; it would knock the tracks off tanks; and it could cut through a tank's steel right over its engine and set it afire. A squirt of armor-piercing ammo drilled two- to three-foot holes at water lines to sink barges; it would destroy the front of a train engine and wipe out the rails; it would cut off a train's front wheels, topple radar towers and wipe out a parade ground of soldiers.


Example: after an escort, I arranged to "get lost," went to treetop level to avoid flak and followed a railroad track between two cities. Gun-camera film shows 14 railroad engines destroyed before I ran out of ammunition on my way back to base. Another example: returning from a mission, I encountered a new Fw 190D model armed with four 20mm cannon and two machine guns in the cowl head-on between cloud layers over Amsterdam. He fired; I fired. Neither of us would move, and how we didn't crash still mystifies me. When he passed under me, he was dead-plane shredded, on fire and going down. My Thunderbolt's left gun and ammo covers had been blown away, its left wheel and engine cowl had gone, there were numerous one-foot holes in both wings, the number seven and eight cylinders had been blown away, the prop blades had holes, the tail was shredded and pieces of my plane were coming off all over. I flew back to Manston and crash-landed. At least 423 holes were counted in my airplane before it was pulled to the scrapyard and I walked away. I had been to heaven and hell many times, and I guess neither wanted me, so they sent me back to fly again. My God was good to me.


There is plenty more to this article but I didnt want to flood the forum I just though most who love the Jug like me would find it interresting. If you would like to read the rest of this article you cam find it here. http://www.flightjournal.com/fj/articles/mad-rebel/mad-rebel1.asp or you can just buy his book I suppose/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


S~
www.vmf-214.us (http://www.vmf-214.us)

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 12:04 PM
Combat in the "Jug." My 40 combat-mission experiences in the P-47 Thunderbolt had proved to me that the "Jug" could take and deliver extensive damage. After escort missions, it was easy to "get lost," go to the deck and use the plane's eight .50-caliber machine guns and ammo to their best advantage. A touch of the trigger would cut an enemy plane in half, tear out an engine, or cut off a wing; it would leave a truck loaded with soldiers with nothing recognizable; it would knock the tracks off tanks; and it could cut through a tank's steel right over its engine and set it afire. A squirt of armor-piercing ammo drilled two- to three-foot holes at water lines to sink barges; it would destroy the front of a train engine and wipe out the rails; it would cut off a train's front wheels, topple radar towers and wipe out a parade ground of soldiers.


Example: after an escort, I arranged to "get lost," went to treetop level to avoid flak and followed a railroad track between two cities. Gun-camera film shows 14 railroad engines destroyed before I ran out of ammunition on my way back to base. Another example: returning from a mission, I encountered a new Fw 190D model armed with four 20mm cannon and two machine guns in the cowl head-on between cloud layers over Amsterdam. He fired; I fired. Neither of us would move, and how we didn't crash still mystifies me. When he passed under me, he was dead-plane shredded, on fire and going down. My Thunderbolt's left gun and ammo covers had been blown away, its left wheel and engine cowl had gone, there were numerous one-foot holes in both wings, the number seven and eight cylinders had been blown away, the prop blades had holes, the tail was shredded and pieces of my plane were coming off all over. I flew back to Manston and crash-landed. At least 423 holes were counted in my airplane before it was pulled to the scrapyard and I walked away. I had been to heaven and hell many times, and I guess neither wanted me, so they sent me back to fly again. My God was good to me.


There is plenty more to this article but I didnt want to flood the forum I just though most who love the Jug like me would find it interresting. If you would like to read the rest of this article you cam find it here. http://www.flightjournal.com/fj/articles/mad-rebel/mad-rebel1.asp or you can just buy his book I suppose/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


S~
www.vmf-214.us (http://www.vmf-214.us)

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 12:22 PM
I've heard from pretty reliable sources right here on this forum that a P-47 could literally cut a Tiger in half with those eight 12.7's.


<center><img src= "http://www.luftwaffepics.com/LCBW4/FW190-A0-52.jpg" height=215 width=365>

<center>"We are now in a position of inferiority...There is no doubt in my mind, nor in the minds of my fighter pilots, that the FW190 is the best all-round fighter in the world today."

Sholto Douglas, 17 July 1942

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 12:33 PM
good post! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 01:33 PM
good post and thanks for link.

Interesting to see comments about accuracy of aaa on strafing runs. maybe FB not so bad after all?

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 01:37 PM
AAA always took a toll on USAAF aircraft. Just got through reading "An Ace of the Eighth". According to the author's war experience, far more planes and pilots were lost or damaged due to AAA than to enemy fighters.

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 01:44 PM
FW190fan wrote:
- I've heard from pretty reliable sources right here
- on this forum that a P-47 could literally cut a
- Tiger in half with those eight 12.7's.

In the tiger thread you are refferring to no one ever said that a P-47 could cut a Tiger in half...that is not possible...what we DID say was that a P-47 could take out a Tiger....and if the tracks are blown off and it is rendered immobile...or if it's occupants are scurrying out running for dear life due to the smoke from the fire, or the noise of all those .50 shells smacking into that armour driving them nuts...it is still taken out IMO. Targets dont have to explode in a ball of flame or be shredded to pieces to be neutralized.

<CENTER>http://www.world-wide-net.com/tuskegeeairmen/ta-1943.jpg <marquee><FONT COLOR="RED"><FONT SIZE="+1">"Straighten up.......Fly right..~S~"<FONT SIZE> </marquee> http://www.geocities.com/rt_bearcat

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XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 01:48 PM
As Oleg Maddox I consider it bullsh!t.FW190 pilots said their plane had excellent cockpit view.It`s not in the game,is it?

"degustibus non disputandum"

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<center>"Weder Tod noch Teufel!"</font>[/B]</center> (http://www.jzg23.de>[B]<font)

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 01:52 PM
Well well I wonder where the guy met a Fw190D with 4 20mm guns + 2 MGs.

Nic

http://nicolas10.freeservers.com/images/et.jpg


OK I -->[]

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 01:54 PM
Bearcat99 wrote:
- In the tiger thread you are refferring to no one
- ever said that a P-47 could cut a Tiger in
- half...that is not possible...what we DID say was
- that a P-47 could take out a Tiger....and if the
- tracks are blown off and it is rendered
- immobile...or if it's occupants are scurrying out
- running for dear life due to the smoke from the
- fire, or the noise of all those .50 shells smacking
- into that armour driving them nuts...it is still
- taken out IMO. Targets dont have to explode in a
- ball of flame or be shredded to pieces to be
- neutralized.

Also it should be able to damage the tiger's engine if it hits the upper rear part of the tiger with the radiator grids and stuff like that.

Nic

http://nicolas10.freeservers.com/images/et.jpg


OK I -->[]

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 01:59 PM
exactly zyzbot.

maybe 'sniper' aaa in FB ain't so far from reality? I guess most times a f/b would get one pass over target?

Zayets
07-31-2003, 02:02 PM
I told ya that nobody can touch a Jug. If Oleg will delay the IAR , I think I will fly only the Jug in FB. Hope Lomaac came soon. I need mch speed like water. I'm bored without a computer.


Zayets out

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 02:07 PM
FW190fan wrote:
- I've heard from pretty reliable sources right here
- on this forum that a P-47 could literally cut a
- Tiger in half with those eight 12.7's.


There was also a quote saying that .50 could pierce Tiger`s upper armour and belly armour.Quotes in that big thread about .50 clearly stated that TigerB`s(aka King Tiger) armour could also be pierced.


"degustibus non disputandum"

<center>http://carguy.w.interia.pl/tracki/sig23d.jpg

<center>"Weder Tod noch Teufel!"</font>[/B]</center> (http://www.jzg23.de>[B]<font)

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 03:22 PM
I have a Dream

I have a dream of someday the P47 being as sturdy as in this article and the 1000's of others like it. Short burst's ripping planes apart, 8 .50cals immobolizing tiger tanks or kill train locomotives, so why in the godamn hell does it take a full ammo load to down a fw190 most of the time. Was a Fw190 a flying improved version of the King Tiger or what. I have a dream that the American planes is this game will someday compete with the German or Russian planes.

That said, most of us dont want the P47 uber, that wounld not be a challenge. I like the fact i can get kills in this undermodeled POS. I am really is it hard even for a noob to kill a p47 in version 1.0, nope it sure is not so i dont mind when i die it it , that is what should happened in this all the rest of the POS American planes right developers. P47 did have a 4 to 1 kill ratio. We just to have it fly close to what it performed like in the real world. The 2 things i would really like to see, (i dont care about the roll rate) its accruate speed:in climbs, dives and level flight and altitude, and its guns do what they did, kill alot of $*%!.

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 04:02 PM
VMF-214_Pappy,here`s an advice someone gave me when I was saying similar stuff about G6`43.Learn to fly it properly/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

"degustibus non disputandum"

<center>http://carguy.w.interia.pl/tracki/sig23d.jpg

<center>"Weder Tod noch Teufel!"</font>[/B]</center> (http://www.jzg23.de>[B]<font)

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 05:06 PM
yes, to fly it properly means, you have allways to outnumber your enemy, and the enemy pilot must be a total noob. then of course youll get your 4 to 1 kill ratio http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 05:17 PM
is there a fighter , with a worse ratio than 1 - 1 ?


http://www.bayern.de/Layout/wappen.gif

Bavaria is one of the oldest European states.
It dates back to about 500 A.D., when the Roman Empire was overcome by the onslaught of Germanic tribes. According to a widespread theory, the Bavarian tribe had descended from the Romans who remained in the country, the original Celtic population and the Germanic invaders.

Bavarian History : http://www.bayern.de/Bayern/Information/geschichteE.html#kap0

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 05:28 PM
carguy your hallucinating. no one said kingtiger. that was my thread and this post backs it up. jug was the toughest bird in the air. i said tigers armor can and was penetrated from above . the engines were taken out. the hatches were blown out. the crew was sliced and diced. not through any main armor though. in one thread youve said two things already not true. keep goin bro. your almost a political candidate

www.fighterjocks.net (http://www.fighterjocks.net) home of the 11 time Champions Team AFJ. 6 Years Flying http://www.world-data-systems.com/aerofiles/albums/userpics/p47-22.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 05:35 PM
carguy_ wrote:
-
- FW190fan wrote:
-- I've heard from pretty reliable sources right here
-- on this forum that a P-47 could literally cut a
-- Tiger in half with those eight 12.7's.
-
-
- There was also a quote saying that .50 could pierce
- Tiger`s upper armour and belly armour.Quotes in that
- big thread about .50 clearly stated that
- TigerB`s(aka King Tiger) armour could also be
- pierced.

nice nonsense...
a 0.50.cal... I read a report in this forum that a P51 was mistaken for a 109 by a Jug pilot he was hitted from 6 o´clock and his amourplate was pushed 50cm to the front by this burst.. but wasn´t pierced.. so what do we learn ... Mustangs are better armoured than a King Tiger! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
Do you real think that a burst of 0.50 hitting the amour of a Tiger is louder than a nonpiercing shell of sherman.. and do you also believe that tankdrivers are not used to the sound of MG bullets hitting their vehicle?!?!? German groundattackpilots stated that later in the war the 20mm shells were not able to penetrate the amour of modern tanks anymore... so if a single 20mm shell isn´t able... 5x 0.50 can do this??? caus they work togehter.. cause they are flying exact in a line?!?

Sometimes it simple helps to use your brain and think if reports are logical... think about the kinetic energy of such a bullet and... yes maybe a single bullet came through the driver window.. maybe the kenedy bullet could fly backwards... sometimes strange things happens- but they are not the rule...


(carguy - this is not vs you- but this "0.50 kill tiger" stories are simply t...)

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XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 05:36 PM
Dude the engines are covered by grids, not by armor. The engines being taken out does not mean in any case that .50 can penetrate the armor of the Tiger, being the top armor or not.

IIRC top armor of a tiger was 40mm. Could some 0.50 pierce that?

Nic

http://nicolas10.freeservers.com/images/et.jpg


OK I -->[]

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 05:47 PM
top armor of a tiger was LESS THAN AN INCH THICK...pierce it? more like shred it with a few hundred rounds . and bye bye engine with the grids. no deflection bouncing on the engine grids

www.fighterjocks.net (http://www.fighterjocks.net) home of the 11 time Champions Team AFJ. 6 Years Flying http://www.world-data-systems.com/aerofiles/albums/userpics/p47-22.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 05:57 PM
Hum I mixed up the armor thickness, it was 25mm for the tiger, 40mm was for the tiger II

Nic

http://nicolas10.freeservers.com/images/et.jpg


OK I -->[]

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 06:13 PM
maybe I´m wrong, but the grids were covering the airintake and yes the exhaust construction are non armourd too... if the engine would be directly under the grids... every handgranade would take out a tiger- no need for a 9ton plane /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

a construction drawing would help a lot will search for it...


Edit: found no drawings till now but this small picture...

http://www.oakland.edu/~jcoughli/tiger/tiger4.jpg

http://www.panzer-vi.fsnet.co.uk/tiger1_scheme.jpg


rear of the tank is at the right. Take a look there
in the middle is the engine, this part was armoured, left and right are the airintakes and filters- yes no doubt beeing hit by a lot of bullets will damadging them- but I think it will need more to take a tank out- you realy think the engeneers didn´t thougt about this possibility of beeing hit by MG bullets from abouve while designing such a tank?
Streetcombat in cities... so a heavy MG in the 3dr floor can take out a 58t monster?? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

yes the hull top had less than an inch, like the turrettop (was later increased to 45mm), but think about the angle of a plane, which is attacking a tank... and the resulting thickness of an amour ( that´s why later tanks like the panther havent any 90deg. plates anymore..) It´s only less than an inch if you attack from 90deg. abouve.. hmm no good idea in a fast accelerating plane like the Jug /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif )

yes the

It wasn´t the 1st tank and not the last tank they designd- and I never heard that a Panther was destroyed by 0.50...
So maybe these stories are more psychological maybe this stories helpd vs the "tigerphobia" then it was much more usefull than any 0.50cal bullet /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif



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Message Edited on 07/31/0307:48PM by Abbuzze

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 06:29 PM
Great stuff, don't let the conversation of the Tiger distract from the original post.



S!
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XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 07:08 PM
Abbuzze,you must believe it .
do you remember the story ?


wo eine klosterschwester mit einer warze auf der nase mit einer steinschleuder ....usw.usw,


selbe glaubwürdigkeitsskala.



http://www.bayern.de/Layout/wappen.gif

Bavaria is one of the oldest European states.
It dates back to about 500 A.D., when the Roman Empire was overcome by the onslaught of Germanic tribes. According to a widespread theory, the Bavarian tribe had descended from the Romans who remained in the country, the original Celtic population and the Germanic invaders.

Bavarian History : http://www.bayern.de/Bayern/Information/geschichteE.html#kap0

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 07:27 PM
RedDeth wrote:
- top armor of a tiger was LESS THAN AN INCH
- THICK...pierce it? more like shred it with a few
- hundred rounds . and bye bye engine with the grids.
- no deflection bouncing on the engine grids

25mm is actually exactly one inch. Shred it? At a deflection angle of maybe 60 degrees (and even then the Jug is diving preeetty steeply)? Dude, if you believe that, then I have a statue for you. Very special price, only for you my friend. Sits off NYC, bronze construction and concrete foundation. Golden torch is optional, I might have a separate buyer for that one. PayPal is cool by me.

--
Joques
Ok, so you've got a Yak
That don't impress me much!

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 07:29 PM
Boandlgramer- you are right! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Wo der Glaube Berge versetzen kann - tut er dies auch mit ganz andern gingen! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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I./Gruppe

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XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 07:52 PM
Tiger II

Front Turret: 180/9
Front Porsche Turret: 60-110/round
Front Superstructure: 150/50
Front Hull: 100/50
Side Turret: 80/21
Side Porsche Turret: 80/30
Side Superstructure: 80/25
Side Hull: 80/0
Rear Turret: 80/21
Rear Porsche Turret: 80/30
Rear Hull: 80/0
Top / Bottom Turret: 40/78 / 40/90
Top / Bottom Porsche Turret: 40/77 / 40/90
Top / Bottom Superstructure: 40/90
Top / Bottom Hull: 40-25/90
Gun Mantlet: Saukopfblende



TigerI is a little thiner...but not less then 25mm ...and only at the bottom hull. Now which part of the top 50 cal can penetrate? I argee on the engine part...and maybe tracks on the medium tanks...but please...
I think we should stop making assumptions based on nothing /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


Regards,
VFC*Crazyivan
http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/ivan-reaper.gif

"No matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down." Ivan Kozhedub

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 08:16 PM
My thread was intended for people who are fond of the Jug and who I thought would be interested in a war story. How you people turned it into a tank debate is beyond me.


But since we are on the subject....50 caliber machine gun, maximum range: 7,200 yards (four miles)
(Tracer burns out at 1,850 yards; maximum effective range: 1,200 yards.)
.50 cal AP round can penetrate about one half inch at 1,000 yards at 90 degree impact.
12.7x99 (48.5g) 750rpm@870m/s


And please read initial post the pilot never says that he ripped Tiger tanks to shreds.




Message Edited on 07/31/0303:32PM by VMF-214_HaVoK

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 08:18 PM
And I'am more concerned on the damage it is supposed to do on aircraft more then I'am on what it can do to tanks.

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 08:19 PM
VMF-214_HaVoK wrote:
- My thread was intended for people who are fond of
- the Jug and who I thought would be interested in a
- war story. How you people turned it into a tank
- debate is beyond me.
-
-
- But since we are on the subject....50 caliber
- machine gun, maximum range: 7,200 yards (four miles)
- (Tracer burns out at 1,850 yards; maximum effective
- range: 1,200 yards.)
- .50 cal AP round can penetrate about one half inch
- at 1,000 yards at 90 degree impact.
-
-
- And please read initial post the pilot never says
- that he ripped Tiger tanks to shreds.
-
-


Sorry man, did not mean to hijack your thread, thanks by the way, interesting read. But things some people are saying.....kinda.... umm blehh. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Regards,
VFC*Crazyivan
http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/ivan-reaper.gif

"No matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down." Ivan Kozhedub

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 08:23 PM
Weird.

I flew with a LT John Oliphant a couple of years ago.

-------
I'm just saying...


<Center><img src=http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0QwC4BKYUc8NdMGbLmK6nXDVLh2PHDHXJaQ1bq!8G7LP4M88wB FsyxFjf4d*z6zBGsbDWqHu7YGhkgzyCM27ZtHoOdC*BEG5*v4s Dst1JT1g/sig.jpg> </Center>

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 08:25 PM
Carguy hmmm i guess you know me right, Well for a matter of fact i do know how to fly it and i do get plenty of kills in it when i fly it. I want it to fly like the real A/C did is that too much to ask. Of course anyone can still get a kill in a undermodeled A/C but joy wounldnt it be nice if it flew near to what the real plane did or atleast achieve the speeds that many documents and articles said it could achieve. I state again i dont want it uber, i want it close to real, key word close. Your response is the same as most pilots who claim people are ameriwhinners or luftwhinners, you dont know me or how i fly.

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 08:41 PM
Surely you'd want the roll rate too, though? I'd love to see the Jug properly modelled. Let's hope they get the Mustang spot on (no shortage of data you'd think).

Someone asked about the the 190 - it was a damn tough bird; I read an account of a mustang pilot emptying his remaining ammo at one (about 500 rounds I think he said) - aim was good and it carried on home.

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 10:58 PM
Salute

I'm as much of a fan of the Jug as anyone, but...

These nonsense claims about .50 cals penetrating Tiger armour are detracting from the real qualities of the P-47.

As this post says, the plane was extremely durable, had good speed, tremendous dive acceleration, good rollrate, handled very well at high speeds, had a set of guns which were devastating against other aircraft and lightly armoured vehicles, and carried a very big ground to air load.

Let's see those modelled in the FB P-47's and I will be happy.

Any sane person would be, and they shouldn't scream when their .50's can't destroy a Tiger.


Cheers RAF74 Buzzsaw

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 11:08 PM
VMF-214_Pappy wrote:
- Carguy hmmm i guess you know me right, Well for a
- matter of fact i do know how to fly it and i do get
- plenty of kills in it when i fly it. I want it to
- fly like the real A/C did is that too much to ask.
- Of course anyone can still get a kill in a
- undermodeled A/C but joy wounldnt it be nice if it
- flew near to what the real plane did or atleast
- achieve the speeds that many documents and articles
- said it could achieve. I state again i dont want it
- uber, i want it close to real, key word close. Your
- response is the same as most pilots who claim people
- are ameriwhinners or luftwhinners, you dont know me
- or how i fly.


Yeah,nice feeling,isn`t it?LEARN TO FLY they say/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


"degustibus non disputandum"

<center>http://carguy.w.interia.pl/tracki/sig23d.jpg

<center>"Weder Tod noch Teufel!"</font>[/B]</center> (http://www.jzg23.de>[B]<font)

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 11:22 PM
VMF-214_HaVoK wrote:
- And I'am more concerned on the damage it is supposed
- to do on aircraft more then I'am on what it can do
- to tanks.

Well from my experience with the jug, the damage it delivers is very good in FB. I don't have to complain about it, and the only time I made a good pass on a plane and didn't get a kill is because someone came and stole my kill after I had set the ennemy plane on fire.

Also considering the pretty good damage it delivers already, one have to consider the very good bullet spread that makes it easier to aim and shoot down a plane compared to many other planes with which you have to aim much more carefully. Also it doesn't seem to have much recoil or shaking from firing.

So when you combine the very good damage that it already has, and the great ease of aiming due to spread and recoil, I think it's firepower is absolutely devastating.

Nic

http://nicolas10.freeservers.com/images/et.jpg


OK I -->[]

XyZspineZyX
08-01-2003, 02:21 AM
You people do understand that a mg fired from a third floor is signifigantly LESS powerfull than an MG traveling forward at 400 mph mounted on a plane in a dive, don't you?


I mean, if the P-47 just DROPPED its bullets it would kill people, firing them . . . is something else.

I think its safe to assume that P-47 gives its bullets twice as much momentum as a tripod-50cal would do.

There are accounts of Thunderbolts eating Tigers in the war, so I don't see why "german engineers would have considered this possibility and rendered the Tiger invulnerable to 50 cal gunfire from above. They also would have considered that anything the allies had or concievably might have could be trained on a tiger at one time or another and from one angle or another and rendered the King Tiger completely invulnerable to any weapons from ALL sides"

I don't care if you have drawings which show that a tiger could not have been destroyed by a thunderbolt. I have a counterexample: reality.

XyZspineZyX
08-01-2003, 02:47 AM
"I think its safe to assume that P-47 gives its bullets twice as much momentum as a tripod-50cal would do."

Ha ha, that's pretty funny. I think my physics professors would disagree with that one.

XyZspineZyX
08-01-2003, 02:02 PM
Most of you people have missed the reasoning behind this thread. Thanks for truning into crap. I suppose it would not be the IL2 forum if you didnt. Thanks for helping me see the light.
S~

XyZspineZyX
08-01-2003, 03:06 PM
Aflak wrote:
- I don't care if you have drawings which show that a
- tiger could not have been destroyed by a
- thunderbolt. I have a counterexample: reality.



Your reality it BS to me.


"degustibus non disputandum"

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<center>"Weder Tod noch Teufel!"</font>[/B]</center> (http://www.jzg23.de>[B]<font)

XyZspineZyX
08-01-2003, 04:02 PM
Aflak,

A P47 strafing at 350mph would impart approximately and additional 500 feet per second to the velocity of a 50 cal MG projectile - about a 35-40 pct increase in muzzle energy. Not an earthshaking increase.


Blutarski