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ladyleonhart
07-30-2013, 05:47 PM
This is a response to Pacmanate's question to me. I had a lot to say, so I thought it would be better in a separate thread.

Thanks :)



Edit: Of course, please feel free to add anything if you have any thoughts on how Connor's character could improve / be developed further in a new game IF there is one.

ladyleonhart
07-30-2013, 05:48 PM
What would make him have a better personality?

I said character not personality.



He killed his Best Friend

Kanen'tó:kon was his best friend. They had been friends since childhood. Connor didn't want to kill Kanen'tó:kon, but he left him no choice because he was prepared to kill Connor. Kanen'tó:kon felt Connor had betrayed him and his village because he was helping the Patriots. Charles Lee also interfered and influenced Kanen'tó:kon’s actions.

Here’s how it played out:

Connor: “Peace Kanen'tó:kon”
Kanen'tó:kon: “Ratonhnhaké:ton. Come to kill me yourself?
Connor: “What?!”
Kanen'tó:kon: “Charles Lee told me everything. The Patriots seek to destroy us. And you would aid them.
Connor: “That man is a liar!
Kanen'tó:kon: “He said you had been corrupted. That you would try to deceive. But here they are on our doorstep. What say you to that?”
Connor: “ It is a mistake!”
Kanen'tó:kon: “The only mistake was trusting you would help to keep us safe. They have seduced you. And you are turned against your own kind.”

[Kanen'tó:kon goes to attack Connor]

Connor: “Stop!”
Kanen'tó:kon: I will. When you are dead.

[Kanen'tó:kon pushes Connor to the ground and tries to kill him]

This is the point that Connor kills Kanen'tó:kon. Hence, he had no choice. Also, Connor must have hesitated if Kanen'tó:kon was able to push him to the ground, especially since Connor has more experience as an Assassin at this point. He was also probably taken by surprise because, yes, he was his best friend. Therefore, from how they portrayed Connor’s character, it seems very unlikely that he killed him because he wanted to. As I said, he knew Kanen'tó:kon since childhood . They played together as children , he taught him how to hunt and tried to help him, which was very important to him. Also, he actually preferred not to kill if he could. For instance, he didn’t kill William Johnson initially and Achilles questioned Connor’s actions:

Achilles: Johnson is dead?
Connor: No. He retreated when we destroyed the tea.
Achilles: Only to hatch some new scheme, I'm sure... You should have killed him.
Connor: There was no need.
Achilles: Time will tell if you speak the truth.

As for why Connor stopped Kanen'tó:kon, he had already stopped the Patriots from attacking the village. Hence, if Kanen'tó:kon pursued his course of action it would have probably caused even more problems between Connor’s people and the Patriots. That is, the Patriots would probably attempt to attack the village again. As you know, protecting the village and his people was of the utmost importance to him.



Achilles Died

Achilles death was a sad moment in ACIII. Achilles was quite old but no one has power over life and death. To Connor, he was the only family he had left. Then I’m sure it was a sad and painful moment for him, which left him all alone.



He killed his father

I don’t believe that Connor wanted to kill his father or would have done so if he had another choice. It would, however, go against the Assassin Order. The reasons for this are outlined below:

Achilles spoke to Connor about this when he was much younger and before he became an Assassin:

Ratonhnhaké:ton: "I have seen what is to come if they succeed. They have to die, don't they? All of them. Even my father."
Achilles: "Especially your father. He's the one holding the whole thing together."

Hence, Achilles believed that Haytham was the biggest threat and expected Connor to deal with him.

Again, after Connor kills William Johnson, Achilles mentions to Connor that he has to kill Haytham:

Connor: “I thought it might bring clarity. Or instill a sense of accomplishment. But all I feel is regret.”
Achilles: “Hold fast to that. Such sacrifices must never come lightly.”
Connor: “I had to do it. Not only for my people, but for all the others Johnson would have harmed.”
Achilles: “It's a start. But to truly be free of Templar influence, all of them must be dealt with in turn. Even your father.”
Connor: “I know.”
Achilles: “You speak the words, but do you believe them”

Hence, even Achilles sensed his hesitation.

When Connor meets his father, he has the opportunity to ask questions and tries to understand why Haytham is a Templar.

The following quote is from when Connor returns to Achilles after spending time with Haytham:

Connor: “But now their hold is weakened, which makes me believe there's a chance for peace. Imagine what might be accomplished if we were to unite.”
Achilles: “Why the change of heart? Where is this coming from? You've met your father, haven't you?”
Connor: “I do not claim to trust the man - or even like him. But I would be remiss to ignore this opportunity.
Achilles: “Haytham may listen. But will he understand? And even if he does, will he agree?”
Connor: “Even he must admit that we achieve more together than we do alone.”

It gave me the impression that deep down Connor wanted to form an alliance with his father and hoped it may be possible. He doesn’t admit this to Achilles’ because Achilles, as well as being his Assassin mentor, has also been a father-figure to him. To Achilles, therefore, Haytham is just a Templar that is very dangerous. To Connor, Haytham is his father and not just an enemy. Then I don’t think he wanted to kill Haytham at all. It was something he was expected to do for the Assassins.

Also, he became an Assassin because of the visions he had, but most importantly he wanted to protect his village and his people. He had already lost his mother because of outsiders. He did want peace and freedom for all, which isn’t a bad thing but a very difficult thing to achieve in that time and even today and even more so for one person.



He failed to protect his peoples land.

Yes, in the end he did, but not because he didn’t try. Like I mentioned earlier, it was something that was extremely important to him. He even went against Achilles to try and help his people. However, it is very difficult for one person to achieve. The Clan Mother also didn’t even want Connor to go in the first place. He had a lot of things against him. He didn’t have wealth; he didn’t have power or influence. His people led a very different way of life, and all the change that came occurred when he was very young and unable to do anything about it. Connor refers to what his life was like before:

Connor: “I have known true freedom. I have known a world of peace and remarkable spirit. A world, which was taken from me.”

He was a child and didn't quite understand. The person who probably could've have given him the best guidance, his mother, was taken from him. Also, if she was around to show him love and affection, he would probably have been a different character. Anyway, as he grew older, he was still quite naïve and he didn’t really understand what the world he lived in had become. I think anyone would have found it to be quite a difficult transition i.e. strangers coming and threatening your way of life.

Importantly, I’m sure Connor was very upset himself that he had failed his people.


Connor lost EVERYTHING whilst he was an Assassin.

Being Assassin doesn’t mean that you will always win and get everything the way you want. He’s human too. The Assassin Order had been crushed by the Templars and only Achilles really remained. Then, Connor was alone except for Achilles’ guidance. His experience was therefore entirely different to other Assassins.

Most importantly, don’t forget that Connor is half-Native American and half-English. Then, he himself is stuck between two worlds. He wanted to protect his village and he also wanted to help achieve the goals of the Assassins. I have no doubt that he would have wished for a reconciliation of some sort with his father. Then he was caught between many conflicts, including his own.

Also for those of you who think he comes across angry, wouldn’t you be angry if you home and the people you cared about were threatened? He had already lost his mother at a young age. He had an absent father and didn’t really have anyone like that until he found Achilles.

As for his naivety he wanted to believe in something better for the good of everyone and that really isn’t a bad thing, and it did align with what the Assassins wanted.

As to your original question: "What would make him have a better personality [character]?"

At this stage, Connor would be more experienced. I’m certain he wouldn’t want to repeat his past mistakes or failures, as you said. He would be able to learn from his experience and also learn from the people he has met so far. This would most likely make him less naïve and less angry, which are two things people didn’t like or understand. Also, he would be more experienced as an Assassin and most likely would understand the need for subtlety in his actions, as well as understanding the consequences that might occur because of his actions. Then, he will be able to take criticism, understand the world a bit better and be stronger for it. He will also be even more determined to succeed where he didn’t before, but will have the knowledge and experience to make better decisions, and also help rebuild the Assassin order. Overall, I believe he would be more mature and understand what the Assassins stand for and thus a better developed character due to his experiences.

Spider_Sith9
07-30-2013, 05:50 PM
One problem. People say he has nowhere to go. Plus this is a game about killing people. Not a Slice of Life.

silvermercy
07-30-2013, 05:52 PM
Great posts. Obviously I agree. lol

Why I think Connor will be a better in a new game is simple for me: TIME. He will have time to develop. And as an adult, too. No childhood and teen sequences. Oh and no more Desmond. Apart from Haytham, I think he also stole the show from Connor with his ending...

ladyleonhart
07-30-2013, 05:53 PM
One problem. People say he has nowhere to go. Plus this is a game about killing people. Not a Slice of Life.

Um... I do actually KNOW that Spider. I was answering a question that was put to me about Connor's character. The question was not about how he is an Assassin or how he should be. Also, Assassins are still human and life's experiences are what makes a person, even if you are an Assassin.

Jexx21
07-30-2013, 05:56 PM
One problem. People say he has nowhere to go. Plus this is a game about killing people. Not a Slice of Life.
For someone who wants a Connor game, you sure bring up stuff that you think means there won't be.

I'm sorry, but you're just a huge whiner. You whine about everything. You think that you're the only Connor fan or something. Piss off.

ladyleonhart
07-30-2013, 05:57 PM
Great posts. Obviously I agree. lol

Why I think Connor will be a better in a new game is simple for me: TIME. He will have time to develop. And as an adult, too. No childhood and teen sequences. Oh and no more Desmond. Apart from Haytham, I think he also stole the show from Connor with his ending...

Yes, that's what I was trying to explain, Silver. :) That he would learn and grow from his experiences, thus developing into a much stronger character, which more people MAY appreciate. Even then, they still might not like him. As I said though, I was just trying to answer a question that was put to me. :)

Spider_Sith9
07-30-2013, 06:08 PM
Um... I do actually KNOW that Spider. I was answering a question that was put to me about Connor's character. The question was not about how he is an Assassin or how he should be. Also, Assassins are still human and life's experiences are what makes a person, even if you are an Assassin.

People said the same with Altair/Ezio. Mainly used as a weapon against Altair's personality.


For someone who wants a Connor game, you sure bring up stuff that you think means there won't be.

I'm sorry, but you're just a huge whiner. You whine about everything. You think that you're the only Connor fan or something. Piss off.

More attacks eh? I do want a Connor game. I've just lost alot of hope about it actually happening. You guys don't help. Especially with sid's thread today getting super cereal.

You may not know it but, I don't always be here. And when I'm not here, Connor fans are FAR and few between. I got bashed for wanting elaboration for why some people didn't like Connor and was constantly told off. Worse I had to deal with more because the thread was getting bumped. You ignored everyone elses disregard for another Connor game go straight to me. I think it's YOU who needs to piss off.

I-Like-Pie45
07-30-2013, 06:12 PM
Connor will be a better character because CONNOR IS A CHARACTER

pirate1802
07-30-2013, 06:16 PM
Connor will be a better character because CONNOR IS A CHARACTER

I couldn't have guessed that... :O

Rugterwyper32
07-30-2013, 06:22 PM
I want to bring back the last post I made before class:


While he lost a lot, he ended up gaining a lot too. He allowed the homestead to become a prosperous town for those who wanted to start a new life in the midst of a bloody revolution. He started rebuilding the Brotherhood and I have the feeling that after Achilles' death, talking about how he'd make him and absorbing the truth of the events of AC3, he'd want to have a bigger connection with the Brotherhood itself. So there's the potential trouble the homestead could face being forced to join and play by the rules of this new nation it's part of, and if things worked like I wish they would and a new game sent him to Canada, he'd see both sides of the same coin: How good it was for the newly formed US, how it was a total disaster for British Canada. With a different worldview and different problems to face, he wouldn't see it with his past idealism, but he'd be able to stare at the truth and fight with the reformed Brotherhood to ensure it all works. Or something, I don't know, writing this kinda rushed before class.

Also, the fact he's finally gotten over the rage over Charles Lee and the Templars, being able to understand their point of view now and being far wiser than when he begun would help. At the end of AC3 he's roughly the same age Ezio was when he faced Rodrigo and learned everyone around him was an Assassin, which is when Ezio started wondering about his own revenge and what's it all for.

Jexx21
07-30-2013, 06:27 PM
More attacks eh? I do want a Connor game. I've just lost alot of hope about it actually happening. You guys don't help. Especially with sid's thread today getting super cereal.

You may not know it but, I don't always be here. And when I'm not here, Connor fans are FAR and few between. I got bashed for wanting elaboration for why some people didn't like Connor and was constantly told off. Worse I had to deal with more because the thread was getting bumped. You ignored everyone elses disregard for another Connor game go straight to me. I think it's YOU who needs to piss off.

You act as if you actually ARE Connor.

And what the ****? You think that when you aren't here, the Connor fans go away? No they don't. I don't deal with the people who don't like Connor because I can't change their opinion, and I have no reason to want to change their opinion. All I do is support the possibility of there being another Connor game.

YOU do not have to deal with anything. You don't need to defend Connor.

I deal with you ultimately because you attack yourself. It's dangerous for your mental health and well-being, which I feel has already been deteriorated.

Spider_Sith9
07-30-2013, 06:28 PM
I want to bring back the last post I made before class:



Also, the fact he's finally gotten over the rage over Charles Lee and the Templars, being able to understand their point of view now and being far wiser than when he begun would help. At the end of AC3 he's roughly the same age Ezio was when he faced Rodrigo and learned everyone around him was an Assassin, which is when Ezio started wondering about his own revenge and what's it all for.

The solution to the problem is to make longer games. Persona length.


You act as if you actually ARE Connor.

And what the ****? You think that when you aren't here, the Connor fans go away? No they don't. I don't deal with the people who don't like Connor because I can't change their opinion, and I have no reason to want to change their opinion. All I do is support the possibility of there being another Connor game.

YOU do not have to deal with anything. You don't need to defend Connor.

I deal with you ultimately because you attack yourself. It's dangerous for your mental health and well-being, which I feel has already been deteriorated.

Oh for the love... Stop your overanalyzing!!! I mean that I want a Connor game but I doubt it'll happen. From the evidence I've seen shows the fans are a vocal minority. I like Connor as a character and defend him.

I have already been deteriorated by my former mentor and other life experiences. What's done is done. I may be cynical but I have my reasons. You claim to protect me yet tell me to piss off.

I'm not talking about you. I'm talking about a Connor game. I do want it to happen. But WILL it happen? Highly unlikely. Remember when Achilles said "What's TRUE and what IS aren't the same."? Hell, I still want my AC1 remake.


This needs to be dealt in a PM. Because I'm getting fed up with your attacks.

x___Luffy___x
07-30-2013, 06:28 PM
@ ladyleonhart

nice post... i agree with you :)

Jexx21
07-30-2013, 06:35 PM
I'm not talking about you. I'm talking about a Connor game. I do want it to happen. But WILL it happen? Highly unlikely. Remember when Achilles said "What's TRUE and what IS aren't the same."? Hell, I still want my AC1 remake.

Actually, according to the patterns I see, it's more likely that Connor will get another game than not.

ladyleonhart
07-30-2013, 06:57 PM
While he lost a lot, he ended up gaining a lot too. He allowed the homestead to become a prosperous town for those who wanted to start a new life in the midst of a bloody revolution. He started rebuilding the Brotherhood and I have the feeling that after Achilles' death, talking about how he'd make him and absorbing the truth of the events of AC3, he'd want to have a bigger connection with the Brotherhood itself. So there's the potential trouble the homestead could face being forced to join and play by the rules of this new nation it's part of, and if things worked like I wish they would and a new game sent him to Canada, he'd see both sides of the same coin: How good it was for the newly formed US, how it was a total disaster for British Canada. With a different worldview and different problems to face, he wouldn't see it with his past idealism, but he'd be able to stare at the truth and fight with the reformed Brotherhood to ensure it all works. Or something, I don't know, writing this kinda rushed before class.

Also, the fact he's finally gotten over the rage over Charles Lee and the Templars, being able to understand their point of view now and being far wiser than when he begun would help. At the end of AC3 he's roughly the same age Ezio was when he faced Rodrigo and learned everyone around him was an Assassin, which is when Ezio started wondering about his own revenge and what's it all for.


Great argument for a game in Canada, and also some very good points about Connor's character! :D


@ ladyleonhart

nice post... i agree with you :)

Thank you! xD

ACfan443
07-30-2013, 06:59 PM
I'm pro Connor and all for another game with him, but there really didn't need to be another thread on the matter.

ladyleonhart
07-30-2013, 07:01 PM
I'm pro Connor and all for another game with him, but there really didn't need to be another thread on the matter.

I was just replying to a question I was asked. Then I had too much to write on the matter. I really wasn't trying to cause any trouble. Sorry.

Spider_Sith9
07-30-2013, 07:02 PM
Great argument for a game in Canada, and also some very good points about Connor's character! :D



Thank you! xD But what about Naval Gameplay? D:

Rugterwyper32
07-30-2013, 07:11 PM
But what about Naval Gameplay? D:

"Ocean piracy, off the coasts of North America, continued as late as the 1870s. Pirates who operated in the Caribbean often sailed north to attack targets off the present day eastern seaboard of the United States."

Yeah let's mess with that and make way to Quebec/Montreal by sea.

ACfan443
07-30-2013, 07:16 PM
I was just replying to a question I was asked. Then I had too much to write on the matter. I really wasn't trying to cause any trouble. Sorry.

Who said you were causing trouble? It's perfectly fine for you to express your opinion, as previously mentioned. But having four threads on the same topic is tiresome and repetitive.

Spider_Sith9
07-30-2013, 07:21 PM
"Ocean piracy, off the coasts of North America, continued as late as the 1870s. Pirates who operated in the Caribbean often sailed north to attack targets off the present day eastern seaboard of the United States."

Yeah let's mess with that and make way to Quebec/Montreal by sea.

:D

ladyleonhart
07-30-2013, 07:30 PM
Who said you were causing trouble? It's perfectly fine for you to express your opinion, as previously mentioned. But having four threads on the same topic is tiresome and repetitive.

I know there were two threads to begin with, but I was trying to respond to someone. My post took up way too much space. Also, I thought the intended recipient of the post wouldn't see it because the other two threads are not being used in the proper way. Everyone is just arguing with each other instead of making constructive arguments with proper reasons. Also, in some cases people are getting very defensive and personal with each other. I wanted to provide a proper and justified response with actual reasons. As for the other thread, it was actually created about 45 minutes after mine.

Also, I do understand what you are saying. I often hope to see different threads where people can discuss ideas and topics they find interesting rather than argue with everyone. It doesn't seem to be the case. Also, I didn't want to be teased again for my opinion, where people are not actually sticking to the topic. So, my apologies again. I really wasn't trying to duplicate any of the previous threads. It was supposed to reflect why Connor's character could be developed further.

Jexx21
07-30-2013, 07:32 PM
Also, the fact he's finally gotten over the rage over Charles Lee and the Templars, being able to understand their point of view now and being far wiser than when he begun would help. At the end of AC3 he's roughly the same age Ezio was when he faced Rodrigo and learned everyone around him was an Assassin, which is when Ezio started wondering about his own revenge and what's it all for.

Connor is 27 at the end of AC3, while Ezio was 40 in 1499, when he faced Rodrigo--oh wait.. you meant when Ezio was inducted into the Assassins.. Yea, he was 28 then.

pacmanate
07-30-2013, 09:25 PM
I said character not personality.
I dont think that was in response to what you said...

Kanen'tó:kon was his best friend. They had been friends since childhood. Connor didn't want to kill Kanen'tó:kon, but he left him no choice because he was prepared to kill Connor. Kanen'tó:kon felt Connor had betrayed him and his village because he was helping the Patriots. Charles Lee also interfered and influenced Kanen'tó:kon’s actions.


Here’s how it played out:

Connor: “Peace Kanen'tó:kon”
Kanen'tó:kon: “Ratonhnhaké:ton. Come to kill me yourself?
Connor: “What?!”
Kanen'tó:kon: “Charles Lee told me everything. The Patriots seek to destroy us. And you would aid them.
Connor: “That man is a liar!
Kanen'tó:kon: “He said you had been corrupted. That you would try to deceive. But here they are on our doorstep. What say you to that?”
Connor: “ It is a mistake!”
Kanen'tó:kon: “The only mistake was trusting you would help to keep us safe. They have seduced you. And you are turned against your own kind.”

[Kanen'tó:kon goes to attack Connor]

Connor: “Stop!”
Kanen'tó:kon: I will. When you are dead.

[Kanen'tó:kon pushes Connor to the ground and tries to kill him]

This is the point that Connor kills Kanen'tó:kon. Hence, he had no choice. Also, Connor must have hesitated if Kanen'tó:kon was able to push him to the ground, especially since Connor has more experience as an Assassin at this point. He was also probably taken by surprise because, yes, he was his best friend. Therefore, from how they portrayed Connor’s character, it seems very unlikely that he killed him because he wanted to. As I said, he knew Kanen'tó:kon since childhood . They played together as children , he taught him how to hunt and tried to help him, which was very important to him. Also, he actually preferred not to kill if he could. For instance, he didn’t kill William Johnson initially and Achilles questioned Connor’s actions:

Achilles: Johnson is dead?
Connor: No. He retreated when we destroyed the tea.
Achilles: Only to hatch some new scheme, I'm sure... You should have killed him.
Connor: There was no need.
Achilles: Time will tell if you speak the truth.

As for why Connor stopped Kanen'tó:kon, he had already stopped the Patriots from attacking the village. Hence, if Kanen'tó:kon pursued his course of action it would have probably caused even more problems between Connor’s people and the Patriots. That is, the Patriots would probably attempt to attack the village again. As you know, protecting the village and his people was of the utmost importance to him.

It doesn't matter about Justification about why he killed his best friend. The fact is that he DID kill his best friend. It's not about right or wrong, but emotions.


Achilles death was a sad moment in ACIII. Achilles was quite old but no one has power over life and death. To Connor, he was the only family he had left. Then I’m sure it was a sad and painful moment for him, which left him all alone.

Agreed




I don’t believe that Connor wanted to kill his father or would have done so if he had another choice. It would, however, go against the Assassin Order. The reasons for this are outlined below:

Achilles spoke to Connor about this when he was much younger and before he became an Assassin:

Ratonhnhaké:ton: "I have seen what is to come if they succeed. They have to die, don't they? All of them. Even my father."
Achilles: "Especially your father. He's the one holding the whole thing together."

Hence, Achilles believed that Haytham was the biggest threat and expected Connor to deal with him.

Again, after Connor kills William Johnson, Achilles mentions to Connor that he has to kill Haytham:

Connor: “I thought it might bring clarity. Or instill a sense of accomplishment. But all I feel is regret.”
Achilles: “Hold fast to that. Such sacrifices must never come lightly.”
Connor: “I had to do it. Not only for my people, but for all the others Johnson would have harmed.”
Achilles: “It's a start. But to truly be free of Templar influence, all of them must be dealt with in turn. Even your father.”
Connor: “I know.”
Achilles: “You speak the words, but do you believe them”

Hence, even Achilles sensed his hesitation.

When Connor meets his father, he has the opportunity to ask questions and tries to understand why Haytham is a Templar.

The following quote is from when Connor returns to Achilles after spending time with Haytham:

Connor: “But now their hold is weakened, which makes me believe there's a chance for peace. Imagine what might be accomplished if we were to unite.”
Achilles: “Why the change of heart? Where is this coming from? You've met your father, haven't you?”
Connor: “I do not claim to trust the man - or even like him. But I would be remiss to ignore this opportunity.
Achilles: “Haytham may listen. But will he understand? And even if he does, will he agree?”
Connor: “Even he must admit that we achieve more together than we do alone.”

It gave me the impression that deep down Connor wanted to form an alliance with his father and hoped it may be possible. He doesn’t admit this to Achilles’ because Achilles, as well as being his Assassin mentor, has also been a father-figure to him. To Achilles, therefore, Haytham is just a Templar that is very dangerous. To Connor, Haytham is his father and not just an enemy. Then I don’t think he wanted to kill Haytham at all. It was something he was expected to do for the Assassins.

I know he didn't want to kill his father. I read Forsaken and deep down both Haytham and Connor wanted to be together but couldn't because of what they stood for. Once again, this isn't about Connor wanting to do something, its about the effect it has on him. And killing your father would have been hard for him as if you read Forsaken, he really wants to get on with his Father as that is his only Family.

Also, he became an Assassin because of the visions he had, but most importantly he wanted to protect his village and his people. He had already lost his mother because of outsiders. He did want peace and freedom for all, which isn’t a bad thing but a very difficult thing to achieve in that time and even today and even more so for one person.

Yes, and he failed. Which would also have a negative impact on him. He spent years training and for what? He failed. Then Juno told him he played his part in HER own plot. He found out he was just a pawn like Ezio and that his life was used to benefit someone else.


Yes, in the end he did, but not because he didn’t try. Like I mentioned earlier, it was something that was extremely important to him. He even went against Achilles to try and help his people. However, it is very difficult for one person to achieve. The Clan Mother also didn’t even want Connor to go in the first place. He had a lot of things against him. He didn’t have wealth; he didn’t have power or influence. His people led a very different way of life, and all the change that came occurred when he was very young and unable to do anything about it. Connor refers to what his life was like before:

Again, yes I know what his motives were, and he failed.


Connor: “I have known true freedom. I have known a world of peace and remarkable spirit. A world, which was taken from me.”

He was a child and didn't quite understand. The person who probably could've have given him the best guidance, his mother, was taken from him. Also, if she was around to show him love and affection, he would probably have been a different character. Anyway, as he grew older, he was still quite naïve and he didn’t really understand what the world he lived in had become. I think anyone would have found it to be quite a difficult transition i.e. strangers coming and threatening your way of life.

Importantly, I’m sure Connor was very upset himself that he had failed his people.

That's the whole point of what I wrote... all the negative things that happened to him.

Being Assassin doesn’t mean that you will always win and get everything the way you want. He’s human too. The Assassin Order had been crushed by the Templars and only Achilles really remained. Then, Connor was alone except for Achilles’ guidance. His experience was therefore entirely different to other Assassins.

Yes it was different, but only because he became an Assassin for his OWN needs. He became an Assassin because he knew it would help his people, it was just chance that Templars were involved and crossed paths with him all the time.

Most importantly, don’t forget that Connor is half-Native American and half-English. Then, he himself is stuck between two worlds. He wanted to protect his village and he also wanted to help achieve the goals of the Assassins. I have no doubt that he would have wished for a reconciliation of some sort with his father. Then he was caught between many conflicts, including his own.

I dont believe this about him wanting to achieve Assassin goals. He joined to save his people. It was chance that Templars were the problem.

Also for those of you who think he comes across angry, wouldn’t you be angry if you home and the people you cared about were threatened? He had already lost his mother at a young age. He had an absent father and didn’t really have anyone like that until he found Achilles.

If I lost my mother and my people were threatened, I would try to make as many friends as possible. He always argued with Achilles, for some reason he just randomly walks into that guy carrying that crate of tea even though he didn't know it contained tea in sequence 6, that guy who touches Connors shoulder gently (forget his name) always gets pushed off by Connor even though hes just trying to help.

As for his naivety he wanted to believe in something better for the good of everyone and that really isn’t a bad thing, and it did align with what the Assassins wanted.

As to your original question: "What would make him have a better personality [character]?"

At this stage, Connor would be more experienced. I’m certain he wouldn’t want to repeat his past mistakes or failures, as you said. He would be able to learn from his experience and also learn from the people he has met so far. This would most likely make him less naïve and less angry, which are two things people didn’t like or understand.

I never said he would repeat past mistakes or failures. Those were just consequences of the Revolution and his part, he didn't do those on purpose. He didn't control Achilles death, he had no choice against his father, he did have a choice against his friend as I don't believe that 20 or so years of friendship disappears because one random guy (charles lee) tells him Connor is bad. He didn't drive his people away. They were just consequences he couldnt control. So no, it wouldnt make him less naive or angry, it would make him MORE angry. He did everything he could and it wasnt enough.

Also, he would be more experienced as an Assassin and most likely would understand the need for subtlety in his actions, as well as understanding the consequences that might occur because of his actions.

But what is this in response too though? He was subtle. He even says at the start of one sequence that he must tread carefully to make sure he doesnt give away that he is an Assassin. He went a good few years being subtle. Also what consequences of his actions? He did what he had too, take down the Templars.

Then, he will be able to take criticism, understand the world a bit better and be stronger for it. He will also be even more determined to succeed where he didn’t before, but will have the knowledge and experience to make better decisions, and also help rebuild the Assassin order.

How more determined can you get than saving your whole village and your best friend from possible death? He never made any BAD decisions, and he would never take critism from anyone. Who would even be better than him at what he does? If there is someone, we should be playing as them.

Overall, I believe he would be more mature and understand what the Assassins stand for and thus a better developed character due to his experiences.

Maybe more mature, but also broken for the reasons you quoted me for. He wouldnt understand more for what the Assassins stand for as that has nothing to do with his loses nor does it teach him anything about the order.



Quote me back if you have too.

ladyleonhart
07-30-2013, 10:53 PM
Quote me back if you have too.


I dont think that was in response to what you said...

I don't understand what you mean? You asked me what would make him have a better personality? Then I was referring to that I said character not personality.


It doesn't matter about Justification about why he killed his best friend. The fact is that he DID kill his best friend. It's not about right or wrong, but emotions.

I never said it was justified. It was a choice that was taken from him and another instance of a consequence out of his control. Do you know how he felt about it? I would think he wasn't too happy about it and also that he didn't believe he had a choice. Then if you are referring to his emotions after the incident, I really have no idea. I have no evidence and believe it was open to interpretation because Ubisoft didn't actually focus on that aspect. Maybe they should have shown us how he felt after it happened. Instead, they went straight onto the next part of the game. Then if some things don't add up about his character it was most likely because we weren't shown enough of it.


I know he didn't want to kill his father. I read Forsaken and deep down both Haytham and Connor wanted to be together but couldn't because of what they stood for. Once again, this isn't about Connor wanting to do something, its about the effect it has on him. And killing your father would have been hard for him as if you read Forsaken, he really wants to get on with his Father as that is his only Family.

I haven't read Forsaken but I also drew the same conclusion. From your question you gave the impression that you didn't like Connor's character and that you thought it was a bad reflection of his personality that he killed his father. If you know the reasons why he did this, why argue this point?

What were you actually trying to say when you asked that question?


Yes it was different, but only because he became an Assassin for his OWN needs. He became an Assassin because he knew it would help his people, it was just chance that Templars were involved and crossed paths with him all the time.



I dont believe this about him wanting to achieve Assassin goals. He joined to save his people. It was chance that Templars were the problem.

This is what I already said regarding that:


Also, he became an Assassin because of the visions he had, but most importantly he wanted to protect his village and his people. He had already lost his mother because of outsiders. He did want peace and freedom for all, which isn’t a bad thing but a very difficult thing to achieve in that time and even today and even more so for one person.


If I lost my mother and my people were threatened, I would try to make as many friends as possible. He always argued with Achilles, for some reason he just randomly walks into that guy carrying that crate of tea even though he didn't know it contained tea in sequence 6, that guy who touches Connors shoulder gently (forget his name) always gets pushed off by Connor even though hes just trying to help.

I suppose that was one of his character flaws. Or maybe he didn't trust people very easily because of his experience with outsiders as a child. It would have been very traumatic at that age. As for arguing with Achilles, everyone argues with each other. This forum is proof of that. It doesn't matter how old or how young you are. Deep down, Connor respected Achilles very much and Achilles was proud of him.


I never said he would repeat past mistakes or failures. Those were just consequences of the Revolution and his part, he didn't do those on purpose. He didn't control Achilles death, he had no choice against his father, he did have a choice against his friend as I don't believe that 20 or so years of friendship disappears because one random guy (charles lee) tells him Connor is bad. He didn't drive his people away. They were just consequences he couldnt control. So no, it wouldnt make him less naive or angry, it would make him MORE angry. He did everything he could and it wasnt enough.

I never said that you said he would repeat his mistakes or failures either. Also, I never said Connor drove his people away. As for the 20 years of friendship between them that was Kanen'tó:kon's flaw NOT Connors. I agree these were consequences out of his control, however, I have to disagree and say that he would be less naïve and angry eventually. Reason being, people deal with experiences differently. Also, I am not suggesting that Connor's character will miraculously change. If there was a new game it would have to have a few years before any actual changes to his character would be noticeable.


But what is this in response too though? He was subtle. He even says at the start of one sequence that he must tread carefully to make sure he doesnt give away that he is an Assassin. He went a good few years being subtle. Also what consequences of his actions? He did what he had too, take down the Templars.

I don't think that was directed at you at all. Sorry about that. I think some people have said that he isn't subtle in his approach. I agree with you that he was though, but would probably be more so after his experiences when he learns more about the Order. As for the consequences of his actions, it felt like you were saying that he failed at everything and did everything wrong. I would say that suggested you thought he made bad decisions e.g. killing his friend, as you felt he had a choice.


How more determined can you get than saving your whole village and your best friend from possible death? He never made any BAD decisions, and he would never take critism from anyone. Who would even be better than him at what he does? If there is someone, we should be playing as them.

This was exactly my point. If that's what you feel as well, why is Connor blamed for the mechanics of ACIII that they didn't like? Then why shouldn't there be a better game with Connor? The impression I seem to get is that he's always angry, he's not a proper assassin and he is just awful as a character.


Maybe more mature, but also broken for the reasons you quoted me for. He wouldnt understand more for what the Assassins stand for as that has nothing to do with his loses nor does it teach him anything about the order.

I agree he would be broken a first, but as I said, a few years down the line we would start to see some changes. I never said that his losses and what the Assassins stand for are related to each other and I never said they would teach him about the Order. I said that over time he would learn from his past experiences - "losses" as you called them, Also, I think Achilles kind of left Connor in charge of the Brotherhood. Then, Connor has to take the next step. His people are gone, his family is gone and Achilles is gone. Then, his next step would most likely be to learn more about the Assassin Order and teach others. Also, since he has nothing to lose he would be much more committed to the Assassin Order. Not to mention, he would want to honour Achilles. Then I really don't think he would be content by sitting around and doing nothing. Also, at this point, the Templars probably outnumbered the Assassins.


Also, just wanted to add... this was just my opinion and how I interpreted his character and I am not arguing and I do not wish to argue with you. You asked me a question and I tried to answer it.

I thought you were asking me how Connor could have a better personality, which I referred to as character... Honestly, I am kind of confused with your response. You seem to like at least some of his character, even though there are things you don't like about Connor. Then I never ever said he was perfect. I just think there is more to explore about his character. Like I said before, your experiences do shape who you become. Also, everyone is going to have different ideas and interpretations so there's really not one right answer at all and I am not saying your interpretation is wrong either. :)

pacmanate
07-30-2013, 11:15 PM
I never said it was justified. It was a choice that was taken from him and another instance of a consequence out of his control. Do you know how he felt about it? I would think he wasn't too happy about it and also that he didn't believe he had a choice. Then if you are referring to his emotions after the incident, I really have no idea. I have no evidence and believe it was open to interpretation because Ubisoft didn't actually focus on that aspect. Maybe they should have shown us how he felt after it happened. Instead, they went straight onto the next part of the game. Then if some things don't add up about his character it was most likely because we weren't shown enough of it

Exactly, that is my point. That would completely break him. He wanted to have a relationship with his father, his father wanted a relationship with him. But they couldnt. Haytham didnt want to kill Connor. Think about it, he strangled him, left Connors arms free. Haytham could have killed Connor right there. But there was love between them, but also conflict of alligences. I am talking about how broken Connor is at the end of AC3 and why he wouldnt become stronger. I am talking about the pain he endured. I find it hard for someone to come back from all the stuff he went through with his father, friend, Achilles, and failing his life objective of saving his people.

I haven't read Forsaken but I also drew the same conclusion. From your question you gave the impression that you didn't like Connor's character and that you thought it was a bad reflection of his personality that he killed his father. If you know the reasons why he did this, why argue this point?

Im sorry if thats the impression you got but what I meant was that it was hard for him, explained above.

What were you actually trying to say when you asked that question?

That it would be one of the hardest things to do after killing your best friend, the closest thing to a family at the time, discovering your father, then having to kill him.

I suppose that was one of his character flaws. Or maybe he didn't trust people very easily because of his experience with outsiders as a child. It would have been very traumatic at that age. As for arguing with Achilles, everyone argues with each other. This forum is proof of that. It doesn't matter how old or how young you are. Deep down, Connor respected Achilles very much and Achilles was proud of him.

Yeah deep down he did, but we only find that out when Achilles DIES. It would have been nice to see Connor show compassion to Achilles when he was alive. Achilles took him in, raised him as a son, gave him the tools to try and achieve his nobel goal of saving his people, but he was arrogant all the time.

I never said that you said he would repeat his mistakes or failures either. Also, I never said Connor drove his people away. As for the 20 years of friendship between them that was Kanen'tó:kon's flaw NOT Connors. I agree these were consequences out of his control, however, I have to disagree and say that he would be less naïve and angry eventually. Reason being, people deal with experiences differently. Also, I am not suggesting that Connor's character will miraculously change. If there was a new game it would have to have a few years before any actual changes to his character would be noticeable.;

I know you didn;'t, and you are missing the point of my list of things before. I was talking about the weight on Connors shoulders at the end of AC3 with the death of his friends/family etc etc explained this. Yes it may have been Kanen'to':kons flaw, but this is also a game designer/story flaw too. There is just no way I see 20 years of friendship ending with Connor just straight up stabbing his friend in the neck.

I don't think that was directed at you at all. Sorry about that. I think some people have said that he isn't subtle in his approach. I agree with you that he was though, but would probably be more so after his experiences when he learns more about the Order. As for the consequences of his actions, it felt like you were saying that he failed at everything and did everything wrong. I would say that suggested you thought he made bad decisions e.g. killing his friend, as you felt he had a choice.

He didn't do anything for the order, not on purpose at least. They just happened to be Templars. Johnson and the Tea party is an example. Johnson and him trying to take the land away by force is another example. He did fail at everything. His goal from the start was save his people, he lost his best friend, father, Achiiles (not by his doing) AND his people by the end of it. And killing his friend, bad story writing. Childhood friends, one randomer says something, and he stabs him in the neck?

This was exactly my point. If that's what you feel as well, why is Connor blamed for the mechanics of ACIII that they didn't like? Then why shouldn't there be a better game with Connor? The impression I seem to get is that he's always angry, he's not a proper assassin and he is just awful as a character.

Well he was always angry minus the homestead missions, didnt like human contact like explained before, only cared about his own motives, rude to Achilles.

I agree he would be broken a first, but as I said, a few years down the line we would start to see some changes. I never said that his losses and what the Assassins stand for are related to each other and I never said they would teach him about the Order. I said that over time he would learn from his past experiences - "losses" as you called them

So tell me how you learn from all the loss that occured? It was unavoidable. Learning from something means you do something different to stop that from happening.

Also, I think Achilles kind of left Connor in charge of the Brotherhood.

What brotherhood?

Then, Connor has to take the next step. His people are gone, his family is gone and Achilles is gone. Then, his next step would most likely be to learn more about the Assassin Order and teach others.

Or he could retire? He finished what he set out to do. He didnt care about the order, the order motives just coincided with his.

Also, since he has nothing to lose he would be much more committed to the Assassin Order. Not to mention, he would want to honour Achilles. Then I really don't think he would be content by sitting around and doing nothing. Also, at this point, the Templars probably outnumbered the Assassins.

The Assassin Order is what MADE him lose mostly everything. If he never joined, he wouldnt have to kill his friend or his father.


I thought you were asking me how Connor could have a better personality, which I referred to as character... Honestly, I am kind of confused with your response. You seem to like at least some of his character, even though there are things you don't like about Connor.

I am basically saying Connor would be broken at the end of AC3. He lost too much, gained absolutely nothing but pain and heartache. But I dont really like his character, he only joined the Order cause it furthered his motives, he is rude to pretty much everyone, was so arrogant to Achilles when he said that Achilles never helped him, I mean come on, what the hell was that about. He took Connor in and trained him by choice, he didnt HAVE too.



asfaf

silvermercy
07-30-2013, 11:18 PM
Sorry I can't quote easily from my iPad, just wanted to say, didn't Ezio, and soon Edward, join the Assassins for their own motives, too?

pacmanate
07-30-2013, 11:23 PM
Sorry I can't quote easily from my iPad, just wanted to say, didn't Ezio, and soon Edward, join the Assassins for their own motives, too?

Altair was born into the brotherhood.
Ezio was forced into the Brotherhood, he didn't really have a choice, he didnt sign up.
Connor joined the Brotherhood via his own will to further his own quest.
Edward was recruited by the Brotherhood, he didn't offer.

silvermercy
07-30-2013, 11:43 PM
Altair was born into the brotherhood.
Ezio was forced into the Brotherhood, he didn't really have a choice, he didnt sign up.
Connor joined the Brotherhood via his own will to further his own quest.
Edward was recruited by the Brotherhood, he didn't offer.
I'm not so sure about Ezio... I didn't follow AC2 closely. But I'm sure M will cover me. :) M, where have u disappeared??
As for Edward I'm pretty sure I've read he joins the Assassins (recruited by them) for his own selfish reasons. Fame and fortune. Way more selfish than Connor's IMO.

The only one who fits the bill perfectly is Altair. Nobody else so far...

(About Aveline, I haven't played the game, so can't comment).

ProletariatPleb
07-30-2013, 11:58 PM
The only one who fits the bill perfectly is Altair. Nobody else so far...
Altaïr Master Race!

Moving on, Ezio wanted to avenge his father and brothers and so get got the skills and training, but he wasn't aware that there were more assassins than him and Mario. He joined for his own selfish reasons sure, but he also grows and realizes that revenge wouldn't do him much good.

He started out for Revenge, but let's not forget the whole part where he find out about the apple and prophet, that's when he really realizes a lot of things and how 'insignificant' his revenge quest was.

pacmanate
07-31-2013, 12:02 AM
Not so sure about ezio? Okay well his father told him to take everything in his trunk, included assassin robes, codex, hidden blade. Ezio was going to go on the run forever but mario told him not to throw away everything his father worked for. So yes. Ezio was forced into the brotherhood, he didnt really want to be in it at first. Altair is the only one who lived foe the creed, yes

ze_topazio
07-31-2013, 12:05 AM
Rodrigo wanted the Auditore family dead, Ezio wanted to escape to Spain and live in peace there, but Mario told him that Rodrigo would find him and his family wherever he went, Ezio decided to join the Assassins in order to kill Rodrigo, he had no other choice, either he killed Rodrigo or Rodrigo would kill him and his family.

ProletariatPleb
07-31-2013, 12:08 AM
Rodrigo wanted the Auditore family dead, Ezio wanted to escape to Spain and live in peace there, but Mario told him that Rodrigo would find him and his family wherever he went, Ezio decided to join the Assassins in order to kill Rodrigo, he had no other choice, either he killed Rodrigo or Rodrigo would kill him and his family.
Yes, and that's because he didn't know of Rodrigo's involvement. He only knew that fat guy who he stabbed like an amateur was the one responsible.

"THE AUDITORE ARE NOT DEAD! I'M STILL HERE! ME! EZIO! EZIO AUDITORE!"

silvermercy
07-31-2013, 12:16 AM
He joined for his own selfish reasons sure, but he also grows and realizes that revenge wouldn't do him much good.

Yes, that was my point.

ladyleonhart
07-31-2013, 12:41 AM
asfaf

Um, I really don't understand what the above abbreviation means? :confused:


Exactly, that is my point. That would completely break him. He wanted to have a relationship with his father, his father wanted a relationship with him. But they couldnt. Haytham didnt want to kill Connor. Think about it, he strangled him, left Connors arms free. Haytham could have killed Connor right there. But there was love between them, but also conflict of alligences. I am talking about how broken Connor is at the end of AC3 and why he wouldnt become stronger. I am talking about the pain he endured. I find it hard for someone to come back from all the stuff he went through with his father, friend, Achilles, and failing his life objective of saving his people.

I understand what you are saying, but I've addressed this further down. :)


That it would be one of the hardest things to do after killing your best friend, the closest thing to a family at the time, discovering your father, then having to kill him.

I understand that it would be very awful and I felt sorry for Connor that he had to do those things, but he had also been trained as an Assassin. As you said before, some things he had to do. That doesn't mean he didn't regret them. He would actually feel really terrible because he already felt regret after killing William Johnson who wasn't his friend or his family.


Yeah deep down he did, but we only find that out when Achilles DIES. It would have been nice to see Connor show compassion to Achilles when he was alive. Achilles took him in, raised him as a son, gave him the tools to try and achieve his nobel goal of saving his people, but he was arrogant all the time.

I have explained my case for this particular point further down. As you mention below though, this was also probably a story flaw. They should have shown more of Connor's relationship with Achilles and not just how he was angry at him. Also, as you said we find out that they cared for each other right at the end when Achilles has passed away.


I know you didn;'t, and you are missing the point of my list of things before. I was talking about the weight on Connors shoulders at the end of AC3 with the death of his friends/family etc etc explained this. Yes it may have been Kanen'to':kons flaw, but this is also a game designer/story flaw too. There is just no way I see 20 years of friendship ending with Connor just straight up stabbing his friend in the neck.

Yes, I agree that it was another story flaw, but I still believe that Connor had no choice. Then they should have showed us Connor's regret and sadness, and the impact it had overall on his character.


He didn't do anything for the order, not on purpose at least. They just happened to be Templars. Johnson and the Tea party is an example. Johnson and him trying to take the land away by force is another example. He did fail at everything. His goal from the start was save his people, he lost his best friend, father, Achiiles (not by his doing) AND his people by the end of it. And killing his friend, bad story writing. Childhood friends, one randomer says something, and he stabs him in the neck?

I agree with the bad story writing part. Yes, the examples you have given affected his people. However, not all of the Templars were directly linked to the issues with his people and his village. Achilles gave Connor a list and you are required to assassinate those on it. Hence, he does as Achilles asks. Also, helping the Homesteaders and other people wasn't for purely for his own gain. He helped Warren and Prudence because they were in trouble and being abused. He asks them what happened. He discovers they are farmers and offers them the opportunity to work and live on the Davenport Homestead. He also rescues Godfrey or Terry (it's late -_- so I can't remember which one) and thus risks his own life for someone he doesn't even know. He believes all people should be free, not just his people. He broaches the subject with Samuel Adams about him keeping a slave. Then although, initially, the safety of his people is what drives him, he does want to do greater good. The outcome at the end of ACIII worked out for the majority, but not for his people or himself. Then he didn't fail at everything and he did do some good too.


So tell me how you learn from all the loss that occured? It was unavoidable. Learning from something means you do something different to stop that from happening.

You can certainly become stronger over time after a bad experience. I'm not saying it would be easy, but people do manage to pull through terrible things that have happened to them especially things that were out of their control. He might even understand that it wasn't all his fault and those things were out of his control.


What brotherhood?

Well, like I said earlier... Order/Brotherhood:


Then, Connor has to take the next step. His people are gone, his family is gone and Achilles is gone. Then, his next step would most likely be to learn more about the Assassin Order and teach others.

Also, didn't he recruit people in ACIII? I'd think he wouldn't just forget about them and that they wouldn't forget him. There would be plenty of places where there are still Templars. The threat, of course, wasn't completely gone. I'm sure they would still want to help Connor and fight the Templars by his side.


Or he could retire? He finished what he set out to do. He didnt care about the order, the order motives just coincided with his.

I agreed already that his motives coincided, but I really don't think that he DIDN'T care at all about the Order.


The Assassin Order is what MADE him lose mostly everything. If he never joined, he wouldnt have to kill his friend or his father.

I agree that it did make him lose his friend and father, but he had already lost his mother. His village would still have been threatened at some point even if he hadn't taken any action. Then his friend still could have died, with Connor being directly / indirectly responsible. Also, Connor may have become a Templar instead like Haytham.

Also, as I said:


Also, since he has nothing to lose he would be much more committed to the Assassin Order. Not to mention, he would want to honour Achilles. Then I really don't think he would be content by sitting around and doing nothing. Also, at this point, the Templars probably outnumbered the Assassins.

Yes, he MAY resent the Assassin Order initially because of what happened to him. Or he might see past it eventually if there is an even greater threat and I think Connor is aware that the threat didn't end with Charles Lee.


I am basically saying Connor would be broken at the end of AC3. He lost too much, gained absolutely nothing but pain and heartache. But I dont really like his character, he only joined the Order cause it furthered his motives, he is rude to pretty much everyone, was so arrogant to Achilles when he said that Achilles never helped him, I mean come on, what the hell was that about. He took Connor in and trained him by choice, he didnt HAVE too.
.
I understand that he would be broken and yes, his life was pretty tragic. As for him joining for his own reasons, like silver said:


Sorry I can't quote easily from my iPad, just wanted to say, didn't Ezio, and soon Edward, join the Assassins for their own motives, too?

In any case, we have been told that Edward had his own selfish reasons for doing anything, and most likely his own motives for even considering joining the Assassins.

Also, I know some people don't like his character and I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that at all. As you said, though, Achilles didn't have to train him, so why did he? He must have had reasons of his own too. This is speculation, but Achilles may have felt guilty about letting the Assassins down too. He may have wanted Connor to continue his burden in his stead. He lost his family and was also lonely... etc. Then everyone has their own reasons for doing something too. I know at the very end Achilles actually felt sad for Connor that this had become his burden, which was expressed in his letter to him.


Well he was always angry minus the homestead missions, didnt like human contact like explained before, only cared about his own motives, rude to Achilles.

As for his rudeness, he was quite young and inexperienced and spoke his mind. Also, as I said he may have found it difficult to trust other people. I'm sure everyone has been rude to someone they care about at some point in their lives, even people they care about. Also, you forget that Connor does actually apologise to Achilles as well.

As for his anger, you've already outlined reasons for his anger as have I:

- He was attacked by Charles Lee.
- His village was burned to the ground.
- His mother died.
- His village was threatened once again by outsiders.
- He learns his father is a Templar. (As you said, he initially joined the Assassins to help his people. Then I don't think he expected that meant killing his own father).
- He was blamed for the Boston Massacre by his own father.
- His people were being threatened again when his friend asked for help
... etc.

I'm not sure about the order and I probably missed something, but I wanted to give you an idea. Then, he really had plenty of reasons to be angry,

Overall, the reasons you have outlined as well as the flaws in the story writing is one of the reasons why so many want to see a Connor sequel. We want to see his character develop further and see how he overcomes his difficulties. Yes, there were story flaws as well as in the game mechanics, which also influenced peoples' opinions of Connor. Some of these issues contributed to some peoples' dislike of Connor. Then maybe a sequel would solve this problem if these issues are also addressed. At the same time, others interpreted his character in a more positive light, which is another reason why we feel we want a sequel. Connor wasn't perfect. He had his flaws just like every other person, but he also had his good qualities. Then, if there is a sequel I just hope they actually show us enough about his actual character and relationships with others. Then maybe some people will change their mind or maybe they won't. Honestly, though, I am not trying to change anyone's mind or their opinion.

Thank you for explaining your point of view though, and I really appreciate it! :) Also, I can understand where you are coming from.

Well... each to their own.:D

ladyleonhart
07-31-2013, 12:45 AM
About Aveline, I haven't played the game, so can't comment.

Aveline was trained as a child. I'm not really sure if she chose it, but she was trained because her Mentor saw her potential. Also, you actually start the game when she is already an assassin. There are probably more hints about it in the game, but I can't honestly remember because I am kind of tired, right now. o_0;

pacmanate
07-31-2013, 11:43 AM
Yes, that was my point.

Your point doesn't make SENSE. Sid's comment wasn't really correct. Read the below again. I will summarise it for you. Ezio was told to get his dads stuff. Ezio wanted to flee to spain. Mario made him join the brotherhood.

He had NO choice. Read the below two things again and stop searching for info that only backs you up.


Not so sure about ezio? Okay well his father told him to take everything in his trunk, included assassin robes, codex, hidden blade. Ezio was going to go on the run forever but mario told him not to throw away everything his father worked for. So yes. Ezio was forced into the brotherhood, he didnt really want to be in it at first. Altair is the only one who lived foe the creed, yes


Rodrigo wanted the Auditore family dead, Ezio wanted to escape to Spain and live in peace there, but Mario told him that Rodrigo would find him and his family wherever he went, Ezio decided to join the Assassins in order to kill Rodrigo, he had no other choice, either he killed Rodrigo or Rodrigo would kill him and his family.

And I will say it again. Ezio wanted to leave. He didn't want to become an Assassin. Then Mario did a crafty and told him he would give him the training just to get to spain when in fact he trained him so he could fight as an Assassin and carry on the family tradition.

ProletariatPleb
07-31-2013, 11:46 AM
Sid's comment wasn't really correct.
But..it is! He didn't know of Rodrigo's involvement until after he had killed Vieri.

Assassin_M
07-31-2013, 11:48 AM
Reading Pac`s posts, like he played a completely different game from the one I played...called him blind for it once...don`t regret it

pacmanate
07-31-2013, 11:50 AM
But..it is! He didn't know of Rodrigo's involvement until after he had killed Vieri.

No Im talking about the Revenge part. He didn't just suddenly join for Revenge. He wanted to run away, but it TURNED into Revenge.


Reading Pac`s posts, like he played a completely different game from the one I played...called him blind for it once...don`t regret it

No. Like I just said to Sid. He never joined up for Revenge as his first motive. He wanted to flee and joined because Mario told him to finish his fathers work. It turned into a Revenge story afterwards.

Assassin_M
07-31-2013, 11:52 AM
No. Like I just said to Sid. He never joined up for Revenge as his first motive. He wanted to flee and joined because Mario told him to finish his fathers work. It turned into a Revenge story afterwards.
I was talking about Connor, but yeah..not really...for Ezio it was always about Revenge to me. he joins Mario at Tuscany when he learns it`s to kill Vieri....

ProletariatPleb
07-31-2013, 11:52 AM
No Im talking about the Revenge part. He didn't just suddenly join for Revenge. He wanted to run away, but it TURNED into Revenge.
Oh that, I was talking about killing the Gonfaloniere that was revenge.

pacmanate
07-31-2013, 11:54 AM
I was talking about Connor, but yeah..not really...for Ezio it was always about Revenge. he joins Mario at Tuscany when he learns it`s to kill Vieri....

He joins Mario to retreat. He tells Mario he wants to go to Spain. Mario trains him so he survives the journey. After he trains him he says don't throw away everything. He didn't JOIN for revenge, yes, that was his motive in the end, but he never went to Mario after finding he was an Assassin and said "Lets get Revenge." He found out, and still wanted to go.

7:25 - he outright says it. And this is AFTER he finds the list of people that want him dead.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zX3vSyDVWhg

Assassin_M
07-31-2013, 11:59 AM
He joins Mario to retreat. He tells Mario he wants to go to Spain. Mario trains him so he survives the journey. After he trains him he says don't throw away everything. He didn't JOIN for revenge, yes, that was his motive in the end, but he never went to Mario after finding he was an Assassin and said "Lets get Revenge." He found out, and still wanted to go.
Tell me the moment Ezio agrees to join Mario. "Father`s work"? he says no. "What work? father was banker, no he was Assassin"? no. "Templars exist and they want to take over the world?" no.

Heck, he thought Mario`s rambling about the Codex was "an old man`s fantasy" till the very end. face it, Ezio solely did it after finding out that these men had a hand in his father`s death.

pacmanate
07-31-2013, 12:00 PM
Tell me the moment Ezio agrees to join Mario. "Father`s work"? he says no. "What work? father was banker, no he was Assassin"? no. "Templars exist and they want to take over the world?" no.

Heck, he thought Mario`s rambling about the Codex was "an old man`s fantasy" till the very end. face it, Ezio solely did it after finding out that these men had a hand in his father`s death.

He did it because Mario made him feel guilty that his fathers death would have been for nothing.

Assassin_M
07-31-2013, 12:05 PM
He did it because Mario made him feel guilty that his fathers death would have been for nothing.
and you came to that conclusion based on your own perception. thus no further argument with this...as its fine to see it that way, but there`s nothing to suggest that Ezio felt guilty that his father`s death would be for nothing, because like I said...even after EVERYTHING Mario told him, his father`s job, the Templars and their goals, Ezio still refused....he was quite aware of his father`s work at that point and he still refuses to help Mario...if any guilt was felt by Ezio at any moment, that moment would`v been it..

Megas_Doux
07-31-2013, 01:38 PM
If Connor would have been all about vengeance, not saying it is absent from his motivations though, he should have been, at least, tried to "tomahawked" George Washington in da face!!!!

Ezio, on the other hand was 100000000000% vengeance in AC2, he was not trying to liberate Firenze or Venezia, he was hunting down the men responsible for the murders of his family, PERIOD! He was inducted to the brotherhood like 15 years later he started his quest.....


He was a pawn for the Brotherhood.

Assassin_M
07-31-2013, 01:47 PM
If Connor would have been all about vengeance, not saying it is absent from his motivations though, he should have been, at least, tried to "tomahawked" George Washington in da face!!!!


They excuse that by saying that Connor`s an idiot...ignoring the fact that he wanted to unite the Templars (obviously including Lee) and the Assassins BEFORE finding out that they had nothing to do with his mother`s death...

Ureh
07-31-2013, 04:23 PM
Altair was born into the brotherhood.
Ezio was forced into the Brotherhood, he didn't really have a choice, he didnt sign up.
Connor joined the Brotherhood via his own will to further his own quest.
Edward was recruited by the Brotherhood, he didn't offer.

Juno tricked Connor into joining the Brohood. He thought it would help his people cause she said so.