PDA

View Full Version : Should AC be more challenging?



ladyleonhart
07-24-2013, 01:33 PM
I was just wondering what everyone thinks about the difficulty level of Assassin's Creed series in general. Did you find any particular AC game more challenging than another? Then do you think AC should be challenging?

Maybe if it was more challenging though, it might be too difficult for some people to enjoy. Then perhaps we need difficulty levels.

Then I'd love to know your views on this. Thanks. :)

Assassin_M
07-24-2013, 01:37 PM
None particularly challenging. for me, definitely AC I was the most challenging of them...which is like saying Tommy is the most childish kid in a childish bunch of kids...

Yes....I want to feel smart...I want to feel like my head`s being used...those who complain about difficulty can suck it as far as i`m concerned :|

Difficulty levels wont change much in an open world, non-shooter like AC and trying to make it complex, as in guards attack less frequently in easy, would be a waste of time imo

RinoTheBouncer
07-24-2013, 01:46 PM
Not really. I believe it should be longer, story-wise but not frustrating in it's combat or precision of synchronization which is represented in numerous pointless optional objectives.

ladyleonhart
07-24-2013, 01:47 PM
None particularly challenging. for me, definitely AC I was the most challenging of them...which is like saying Tommy is the most childish kid in a childish bunch of kids...

Yes....I want to feel smart...I want to feel like my head`s being used...those who complain about difficulty can suck it as far as i`m concerned :|

Difficulty levels wont change much in an open world, non-shooter like AC and trying to make it complex, as in guards attack less frequently in easy, would be a waste of time imo

I want AC to be challenging too, and someone asked me why it mattered, since AC has never been about challenge. IMO I think ANY game should be challenging, otherwise it would seem quite pointless. I like having the satisfaction that I achieved something.

As for difficulty levels, I suggested that because maybe some people found it difficult and I wouldn't want to alienate them. Especially, maybe that's the reason Ubisoft hasn't increased the difficulty because they want it to be enjoyable to a larger audience.

Assassin_M
07-24-2013, 01:51 PM
I want AC to be challenging too, and someone asked me why it mattered, since AC has never been about challenge. IMO I think ANY game should be challenging, otherwise it would seem quite pointless. I like having the satisfaction that I achieved something.

As for difficulty levels, I suggested that because maybe some people found it difficult and I wouldn't want to alienate them. Especially, maybe that's the reason Ubisoft hasn't increased the difficulty because they want it to be enjoyable to a larger audience.
Well they`re going to alienate the people who want challenge soon :|

Assassin_M
07-24-2013, 01:53 PM
I want AC to be challenging too, and someone asked me why it mattered, since AC has never been about challenge. IMO I think ANY game should be challenging, otherwise it would seem quite pointless. I like having the satisfaction that I achieved something.

As for difficulty levels, I suggested that because maybe some people found it difficult and I wouldn't want to alienate them. Especially, maybe that's the reason Ubisoft hasn't increased the difficulty because they want it to be enjoyable to a larger audience.
Well they`re going to alienate people who want challenge very soon :|

x___Luffy___x
07-24-2013, 01:54 PM
yes it should be more challenging and hard. and i agree ac1 was the most challenging among them after AC1 the second challenging for me was the ACR.( i think the janissaries were tough)

i find AC3 was the easiest in combat , it was ridiculously easy to kill any guard and any no. of guards without dying.

maybe difficulty levels can help maybe not :confused:

ladyleonhart
07-24-2013, 01:56 PM
Difficulty levels wont change much in an open world, non-shooter like AC and trying to make it complex, as in guards attack less frequently in easy, would be a waste of time imo

That is kind of a simplistic view on making it more difficult.


Well they`re going to alienate the people who want challenge soon :|

That's why I suggested difficulty levels. Then everyone could choose what is best for them.

pirate1802
07-24-2013, 01:58 PM
While I'm not terribly bothered by the lack of challenge, I do believe they should have some kind of NG+ mode. Take a leaf out of Borderland's books, say, keep the current difficulty for the first playthough. After you're done with it, Ultimate Assassins mode, or something like that, unlocks. here the number of elite soldiers on patrol and missions will be significantly increased, timed constraints would be harder, eavesdropping will be harder, and full sync constraints will appear ( which wont be there in first playthrough). Maybe different full sync constraints on different playthroughs? They should definitely bring on some sort of NG+ mode. Increases the replayability value.

ladyleonhart
07-24-2013, 02:05 PM
While I'm not terribly bothered by the lack of challenge, I do believe they should have some kind of NG+ mode. Take a leaf out of Borderland's books, say, keep the current difficulty for the first playthough. After you're done with it, Ultimate Assassins mode, or something like that, unlocks. here the number of elite soldiers on patrol and missions will be significantly increased, timed constraints would be harder, eavesdropping will be harder, and full sync constraints will appear ( which wont be there in first playthrough). Maybe different full sync constraints on different playthroughs? They should definitely bring on some sort of NG+ mode. Increases the replayability value.

Interesting idea! :) I think I would enjoy that! xD Then everyone still has a choice. Although, I think these are things I would put in a difficult mode. :D

pirate1802
07-24-2013, 02:16 PM
Interesting idea! :) I think I would enjoy that! xD Then everyone still has a choice. Although, I think these are things I would put in a difficult mode. :D

Thing about NG+ is, and its a big thing I forgot to mention, is that you can keep your weapons and armour, ship/whatever upgrades from the first playthrough. Just like it is in Borderlands, a continuous process.

ladyleonhart
07-24-2013, 02:22 PM
Thing about NG+ is, and its a big thing I forgot to mention, is that you can keep your weapons and armour, ship/whatever upgrades from the first playthrough. Just like it is in Borderlands, a continuous process.

Oh, you meant New Game Plus. Then I would like everything you suggested apart from having all the upgrades. I have played games with New Game Plus, and honestly for me, I didn't find it stimulating enough. Yeah, it was a bit harder, but I didn't like the fact that I had everything at hand. If you know what I mean. Then I very much preferred to start the game from the beginning.

pirate1802
07-24-2013, 02:38 PM
Oh, you meant New Game Plus. Then I would like everything you suggested apart from having all the upgrades. I have played games with New Game Plus, and honestly for me, I didn't find it stimulating enough. Yeah, it was a bit harder, but I didn't like the fact that I had everything at hand. If you know what I mean. Then I very much preferred to start the game from the beginning.

Well then you'll have the chance to acquire even more awesome weapons in NG+ :D The evolution won't stop!

D.I.D.
07-24-2013, 02:44 PM
That's why I suggested difficulty levels. Then everyone could choose what is best for them.

I think the problem of making the game challenging goes well beyond the application of difficulty levels.

To do what I want, making you die from fewer hits wouldn't be enough. I want something that's integral to the design, where you try and complete an action, fail, and then have to examine the problem to figure out how to achieve the objective.

ACR had a couple of little touches of that. Remember the mission to save the herald from assassination by a group of thugs? Chances are you failed the first time, and then started to think about use of smoke bombs and other items, and gradually refined a strategy. That's the kind of thing, but on a larger scale. I'd like game design that's tough so that you're encouraged to search for routes you hadn't immediately seen, environmental factors you can use to your advantage, picking out targets based on their lines of sight in the right order. I love that feeling games can give you of peeling an onion, where you gradually whittle down layers of an initially solid-looking defence.

SixKeys
07-24-2013, 02:47 PM
I've never seen the appeal of NG+. Having all your weapons and upgrades only makes the game even easier. It also renders some story missions entirely pointless, like in AC2 where you have to get Leonardo to build you all kinds of upgrades.

Philliesfan377
07-24-2013, 02:48 PM
I completely agree that AC should have New Game Plus. I loved it in The Last of Us and Arkham City, it would really work in AC.

ProletariatPleb
07-24-2013, 02:59 PM
Seeing as how AC has become a game with a wide range of audience, the ONLY sensible step is to have different difficulties.

Easy/Story - One mode for those who just want the story and do not care about gameplay AKA casual/kid/baby in some other games.

Normal - The name says it all.

Hard - Harder than normal.

Dark/Insane/Master Assassin - The most difficult mode they can think of... 2 hit death from every enemy? Sign me up!

silvermercy
07-24-2013, 03:02 PM
I think by having different difficult levels it can be appealing to all kinds AC players. Something for everyone. ^^

shobhit7777777
07-24-2013, 03:04 PM
I think the problem of making the game challenging goes well beyond the application of difficulty levels.

To do what I want, making you die from fewer hits wouldn't be enough. I want something that's integral to the design, where you try and complete an action, fail, and then have to examine the problem to figure out how to achieve the objective.

ACR had a couple of little touches of that. Remember the mission to save the herald from assassination by a group of thugs? Chances are you failed the first time, and then started to think about use of smoke bombs and other items, and gradually refined a strategy. That's the kind of thing, but on a larger scale. I'd like game design that's tough so that you're encouraged to search for routes you hadn't immediately seen, environmental factors you can use to your advantage, picking out targets based on their lines of sight in the right order. I love that feeling games can give you of peeling an onion, where you gradually whittle down layers of an initially solid-looking defence.

Well said

The game should encourage player creativity and reward it instead of putting up artificial barriers to increase difficulty in a menial, non engaging way.

Dying in one hit or being swarmed by enemies doesn't really "challenge" me....its another frustrating aspect of a game which rests more on physical skill and reaction time than actually applying your brain

IMO the game should give you an interactive sandbox, a wide variety of tools and powers and a not-so-rigid objective.....coupled with an AI which is believable and has a wide range of reactions.
It should encourage the player in trying out his/her own tactics (by allowing enough abilities and interactive freedom to follow through with such tactics) and experiment with the game...in an environment which responds and reacts, believably, to the player's actions

One reason why I loved ACR was that it gave you a simple objective - take out the Den leader and light up the fire....and then dropped you in an area where you weren't strictly limited. The game also introduced Bombs - an extremely important factor - which allowed you to mess with the AI and the game world and manipulate them according to your wishes....this really opened up several options and the entire game was as systemic as FC3.
This multi-tactical approach was refreshing and is something ACBF seems like is trying to emulate (Blowdart anyone?)

The ability to then manipulate the NPCs as part of a masterfully executed plan..its priceless..

Greater Interaction with environment, AI and wide toolset coupled with environmental freedom and solid AI - thats what the game needs to engage me.

ProletariatPleb
07-24-2013, 03:12 PM
I think the problem of making the game challenging goes well beyond the application of difficulty levels.

To do what I want, making you die from fewer hits wouldn't be enough. I want something that's integral to the design, where you try and complete an action, fail, and then have to examine the problem to figure out how to achieve the objective.
But then the whole game would have to be designed around that...now idk about you but I can't see Ubi doing that.

Simple Difficulty levels on the other hand, they're just playing with numbers.
You take more damage, enemies attack faster, they don't wait around, you aren't an immortal demigod that can kill everything without effort. I would prefer they do atleast that.

Something's better than nothing, once they do that...then we can push for it to be more..organic and not just simple generic enemies do more damage etc etc.

ladyleonhart
07-24-2013, 03:21 PM
I think the problem of making the game challenging goes well beyond the application of difficulty levels.

Um... I think what I said has been taken out of context. I didn't say I agree or disagree with difficulty levels. I was talking to M who thinks the games should be difficult and it doesn't matter if it is too hard for other people. Then difficulty levels would be helpful for those who'd prefer to enjoy the game for what it is and also for those who want a greater challenge. And the fact is, not everyone wants it to be too challenging.



To do what I want, making you die from fewer hits wouldn't be enough. I want something that's integral to the design, where you try and complete an action, fail, and then have to examine the problem to figure out how to achieve the objective.

Dying from fewer hits isn't my ideal approach to increase difficulty either, but this is the kind of simplistic view some people seem to have.

ACHILLES4713
07-24-2013, 03:24 PM
I think part of what made AC1's combat so good was that all the abilities you got over the course of the game, all of the enemies had them as well. And they frequently used them during combat. Now since the chain-kill system is in place, it kinda makes any player familiar with the controls OP. With AC3, I thought the combat was a little difficult at first since the new control sceme threw me off a bit; but when I got used to it the game got easier. I think that in order for the difficulty of the franchise to get back to the "sweet spot" of AC1, the enemies need to be given the same skills as the player and build some kind of counter measure against chain-kills that the enemies can use. Which come to think of, some of enemies in AC3 did have counters for certain types of attacks, so that was a good thing! From what I've read about Black Flag, they've gotten rid of medicine, and I think the health system doesn't regenerate while in open combat, so it looks like they're wanting to give this game some more challenge over previous entries.

silvermercy
07-24-2013, 03:27 PM
Um... I think what I said has been taken out of context. I didn't say I agree or disagree with difficulty levels. I was talking to M who thinks the games should be difficult and it doesn't matter if it is too hard for other people. Then difficulty levels would be helpful for those who'd prefer to enjoy the game for what it is and also for those who want a greater challenge.
True. A lot of gamers would be alienated if they made the game inherently too difficult. Even those (like me) who usually like to play hardcore mode in games. However sometimes, I just feel like playing normal (and even easy) mode as, personally, it allows me to enjoy the story better.

pirate1802
07-24-2013, 03:40 PM
I've never seen the appeal of NG+. Having all your weapons and upgrades only makes the game even easier. It also renders some story missions entirely pointless, like in AC2 where you have to get Leonardo to build you all kinds of upgrades.

New weapons can give you more alternatives for completing a mission. For example a mission took place before you acquired the blowpipe, so you cant put guards to sleep. Now that you have the weapon, you have another avenue open to you. And the story missions would still be valid, you'll just get a better version of the weapon.

Megas_Doux
07-24-2013, 03:45 PM
Of course I want it,but, meh :(

Ureh
07-24-2013, 03:47 PM
I figured out the Edinburgh puzzle just as the timer ended. I kept looking at the tiny watches and couldn't make out the time. Didn't notice until it was too late that the painting had a clock too. I guess that means AC is too hard for me. :(

Assassin_M
07-24-2013, 03:48 PM
I figured out the Edinburgh puzzle just as the timer ended. I kept looking at the tiny watches and couldn't make out the time. Didn't notice until it was too late that the painting had a clock too. I guess that means AC is too hard for me. :(
I laughed too hard at this for some reason :|

does that make me mean??

pirate1802
07-24-2013, 03:50 PM
Lol

STDlyMcStudpants
07-24-2013, 03:52 PM
NO
AC is the ONE relaxing game left in the gaming world
Leave it alone -_-

STDlyMcStudpants
07-24-2013, 03:54 PM
I want AC to be challenging too, and someone asked me why it mattered, since AC has never been about challenge. IMO I think ANY game should be challenging, otherwise it would seem quite pointless. I like having the satisfaction that I achieved something.

As for difficulty levels, I suggested that because maybe some people found it difficult and I wouldn't want to alienate them. Especially, maybe that's the reason Ubisoft hasn't increased the difficulty because they want it to be enjoyable to a larger audience.

All games shouldnt be challenging...not every gamer lives an easy life, of nothing but games and cartoons, some of us use gaming to escape the challenging life and to relax...
I hate when games feel like work and make me constantly strategize..I have enough of that in my real life lol

Megas_Doux
07-24-2013, 03:56 PM
Lol

Assassin_M
07-24-2013, 03:57 PM
NO
AC is the ONE relaxing game left in the gaming world
Leave it alone -_-
http://gifs.gifbin.com/092009/1253885876_suicide.gif

STDlyMcStudpants
07-24-2013, 03:57 PM
yes it should be more challenging and hard. and i agree ac1 was the most challenging among them after AC1 the second challenging for me was the ACR.( i think the janissaries were tough)

i find AC3 was the easiest in combat , it was ridiculously easy to kill any guard and any no. of guards without dying.

maybe difficulty levels can help maybe not :confused:
IMO AC 1 and ACB were easiest in combat...youyu could block and reverse without even trying

SixKeys
07-24-2013, 03:59 PM
New weapons can give you more alternatives for completing a mission. For example a mission took place before you acquired the blowpipe, so you cant put guards to sleep. Now that you have the weapon, you have another avenue open to you.

True, but that's exactly what makes it so easy. When I started NG+ on The Last of Us, I was surprised to see myself breezing through parts where I had died numerous times on my first playthrough. I thought "I can't possibly have advanced this much after one playthrough", then I remembered I started this new run with double my original health, faster crafting skills and better weapons. Having all your upgrades may inspire you to try different approaches, but where's the challenge if you can just blow a Clicker's head off with a shotgun early in the game instead of being forced to stealth your way around it?

ladyleonhart
07-24-2013, 04:00 PM
I laughed too hard at this for some reason :|

does that make me mean??

Yeah, you meanie!!

SixKeys
07-24-2013, 04:01 PM
No offense, but that's kind of a triggering GIF.

pirate1802
07-24-2013, 04:01 PM
True, but that's exactly what makes it so easy. When I started NG+ on The Last of Us, I was surprised to see myself breezing through parts where I had died numerous times on my first playthrough. I thought "I can't possibly have advanced this much after one playthrough", then I remembered I started this new run with double my original health, faster crafting skills and better weapons. Having all your upgrades may inspire you to try different approaches, but where's the challenge if you can just blow a Clicker's head off with a shotgun early in the game instead of being forced to stealth your way around it?

Well what if the difficulty scales? Like in Borderlands? Like in y example you now have a blowpipe to put guards to sleep whereas in previous PT you didn't have it yet. But now there are more guards at the same position?

Assassin_M
07-24-2013, 04:02 PM
No offense, but that's kind of a triggering GIF.
Yeah gonna replace with something lighter

STDlyMcStudpants
07-24-2013, 04:02 PM
http://gifs.gifbin.com/1234443297_ken_park_suicide.gif

thank you

Megas_Doux
07-24-2013, 04:04 PM
This reminds me of the TOP comment of one the AC2 assassins tombs, the one in St Marco, saying that "itt was hard as hell" -.-

AC getting hard is not going to happen, although Black flag gives me some hope about this.

SixKeys
07-24-2013, 04:04 PM
Well what if the difficulty scales? Like in Borderlands? Like in y example you now have a blowpipe to put guards to sleep whereas in previous PT you didn't have it yet. But now there are more guards at the same position?

I haven't played Borderlands, so I don't know how the difficulty is handled there. More guards has never been a solution in AC, since their basic approach has always been to wait neatly in line to get slaughtered instead of attacking all at once. If you have the blowpipe early in the game, you can just choose to put all the guards to sleep instead of having to fight them. How does that make it any more challenging?

Ureh
07-24-2013, 04:05 PM
I laughed too hard at this for some reason :|

does that make me mean??

No.

You were always mean to begin with. :|

ladyleonhart
07-24-2013, 04:06 PM
All games shouldnt be challenging...not every gamer lives an easy life, of nothing but games and cartoons, some of us use gaming to escape the challenging life and to relax...
I hate when games feel like work and make me constantly strategize..I have enough of that in my real life lol

That was my opinion and a generalisation, and I don't have an easy life thank you! I, too, use games for escapism and relaxation from the real world. That doesn't mean they should make me fall asleep.

Assassin_M
07-24-2013, 04:07 PM
That doesn't mean they should make me fall asleep.
You will be my wife

Assassin_M
07-24-2013, 04:08 PM
No.

You were always mean to begin with. :|
Negative and negative equals positive...see?? i`m nice

SixKeys
07-24-2013, 04:12 PM
The thing that made The Last of Us so great is that almost every situation has multiple approaches regardless of the difficulty level. If you have no bullets left but you do have an empty bottle, you can either throw it at an an enemy to stun them or use it to distract them and sneak past. Every playthrough can be different depending on your approach. Sometimes it's entirely possible to avoid conflict even when at first glance it seems inevitable. You can kill infected with a self-crafted Molotov or bomb, go in guns-a-blazing, lure them away with something that makes noise and avoid them entirely. In AC, in most situations you only have two options: open combat or stealth kills. Ironically, AC is more open-world than TLoU yet it doesn't have the same level of freedom when it comes to mission design.

STDlyMcStudpants
07-24-2013, 04:20 PM
That was my opinion and a generalisation, and I don't have an easy life thank you! I, too, use games for escapism and relaxation from the real world. That doesn't mean they should make me fall asleep.
Games dont have to be challenging to keep your attention...i will get burnt out playing demons souls a million times before a game like AC burns me out
I can't even play a childrens game any more without stressing the f out at waves of jello enemies around every corner lol
I cant believe im the only one that appreciates the stress free open world, of being able to freely explore with no threat or danger...no wild pigeotto appearing when you walk through grass....
I still pop in aC games to just walk around, it's relaxing and beautiful...if they made it diffuicult as hardcore gaming as you guys are and how badly you want to throw your controllers at walls because enemies are so hard...you would miss the simplicity.
You never know what you got until its gone

ladyleonhart
07-24-2013, 04:20 PM
You will be my wife

What!? o_0 How is that even relevant?

Assassin_M
07-24-2013, 04:23 PM
Games dont have to be challenging to keep your attention...i will get burnt out playing demons souls a million times before a game like AC burns me out
GAMEPLAY has to have some substance to keep attention...said substance is challenge...if you can come up with something other than challenge that includes more than holding R1 and pushing the stick forward and pressing a few timeless buttons, then i`d love to hear it

STDlyMcStudpants
07-24-2013, 04:28 PM
GAMEPLAY has to have some substance to keep attention...said substance is challenge...if you can come up with something other than challenge that includes more than holding R1 and pushing the stick forward and pressing a few timeless buttons, then i`d love to hear it
How is challenge substance?
Challenge is a cop out... "Guys I just beat our game in 6 hours :( "
"UHHHHH Lets kill our character faster and make players replay checkpoints for hours straight"
Story and simplicity is the greatest substance
Something AC delviers the best out of every series out there

silvermercy
07-24-2013, 04:29 PM
What!? o_0 How is that even relevant?
LOL He has offered to marry me, too.

M, you cheating on me?

Assassin_M
07-24-2013, 04:29 PM
Challenge is a cop out...
what the **** did I just read?

Assassin_M
07-24-2013, 04:29 PM
LOL He has offered to marry me, too.

M, you cheating on me?
No, I can has 4 wives...although I must take permission first from you....dammit...can I marry her??

ladyleonhart
07-24-2013, 04:31 PM
Games dont have to be challenging to keep your attention...i will get burnt out playing demons souls a million times before a game like AC burns me out
I can't even play a childrens game any more without stressing the f out at waves of jello enemies around every corner lol
I cant believe im the only one that appreciates the stress free open world, of being able to freely explore with no threat or danger...no wild pigeotto appearing when you walk through grass....
I still pop in aC games to just walk around, it's relaxing and beautiful...if they made it diffuicult as hardcore gaming as you guys are and how badly you want to throw your controllers at walls because enemies are so hard...you would miss the simplicity.
You never know what you got until its gone

Too bad not everyone here agrees with you.

STDlyMcStudpants
07-24-2013, 04:31 PM
what the **** did I just read?

I said challenge is a cop out. Demon's souls is such an awesome game right? Why? beccause its so hard to beat
I played on god mode and beat the thing in 6 hours
its a freaking cop out

Assassin_M
07-24-2013, 04:32 PM
I said challenge is a cop out. Demon's souls is such an awesome game right? Why? beccause its so hard to beat
I played on god mode and beat the thing in 6 hours
its a freaking cop out
Just stop....that`s enough for me today :|

STDlyMcStudpants
07-24-2013, 04:34 PM
Just stop....that`s enough for me today :|
It' s true...if the game wasnt so hard no one would like it...
Yet AC is easy and hundreds of thousands love it...

pirate1802
07-24-2013, 04:41 PM
I haven't played Borderlands, so I don't know how the difficulty is handled there. More guards has never been a solution in AC, since their basic approach has always been to wait neatly in line to get slaughtered instead of attacking all at once. If you have the blowpipe early in the game, you can just choose to put all the guards to sleep instead of having to fight them. How does that make it any more challenging?

It was just an example. In Borderlands you keep your gear but the enemies grow stronger too, so its balanced. Rather than there being more guards, maybe there will be elite version of guards, on whom the poison wont have that big an effect or will take time to register an effect, or something like that so it balances out you having extra gear.

Assassin_M
07-24-2013, 04:46 PM
It' s true...if the game wasnt so hard no one would like it...
Yet AC is easy and hundreds of thousands love it...
how is using A LEGITIMATELY USABLE element of gameplay a cop out?? Oh hey, that`s like saying...Last of Us is a cop out, it plays with the emotionalz strings or saying that Saints row is a cop out for using GTA`s open world concepts...

STDlyMcStudpants
07-24-2013, 05:49 PM
how is using A LEGITIMATELY USABLE element of gameplay a cop out?? Oh hey, that`s like saying...Last of Us is a cop out, it plays with the emotionalz strings or saying that Saints row is a cop out for using GTA`s open world concepts...
lol no because they are great games and great experiences..and not because of their diffuclty
If difficulty is what makes your game what it is..it is a cop out
Everyone crying about AC difficulty: *pops in game*
protagonist is a cube
level one *Monster sits on you and kills you*
Everyone crying about AC difficulty: "DURRR this is the greatest game ever"

BUT you can tell an AMAZING story with that cube, make a beautiful world that is fun to run aroudnd and play in, and make it easy as hell and THAT VERY GAME COULD BE THE GREATEST GAME EVER
Diffuclty is a cop out, its the EASIEST way to make gamers play longer and brag about because they feel accomplished
Id much rather feel happy and relaxed than stressed and accomplished...i dont play games to prove myself lol

ProletariatPleb
07-24-2013, 05:51 PM
lol no because they are great games and great experiences..and not because of their diffuclty
If difficulty is what makes your game what it is..it is a cop out
Everyone crying about AC difficulty: *pops in game*
protagonist is a cube
level one *Monster sits on you and kills you*
Everyone crying about AC difficulty: DURRR this is the greatest game ever
Demon/Dark Souls games are great because of the way it's presented and that includes difficulty...without it that game would be be something you can finish easily speedrunning.

Assassin_M
07-24-2013, 05:56 PM
lol no because they are great games and great experiences..and not because of their diffuclty
If difficulty is what makes your game what it is..it is a cop out
Everyone crying about AC difficulty: *pops in game*
protagonist is a cube
level one *Monster sits on you and kills you*
Everyone crying about AC difficulty: "DURRR this is the greatest game ever"

BUT you can tell an AMAZING story with that cube, make a beautiful world that is fun to run aroudnd and play in, and make it easy as hell and THAT VERY GAME COULD BE THE GREATEST GAME EVER
Diffuclty is a cop out, its the EASIEST way to make gamers play longer and rbag about because they feel accomplished
Id much rather feel happy and relazed than stressed and accomplished...i dont play games to prove myself lol
I don`t think you quite grasp what i`m saying....

Difficulty can be revered just as much as story, world...etc. It`s not a cop-out, even though I know your brain can`t accept that, but i`m sorry...it`s simply not a cop out...It`s a game element...some games are known and loved for their stories, others for their worlds and others for their difficulty...

take that all in now....

ArabianFrost
07-24-2013, 05:59 PM
Here her, don't worry, the other creepy Egyptian is here to give you a shoulder.

STDlyMcStudpants
07-24-2013, 05:59 PM
Demon/Dark Souls games are great because of the way it's presented and that includes difficulty...without it that game would be be something you can finish easily speedrunning.

I played Demons souls in god mode..which is infinite health after playing it on normal mode wich is 1 hit and you die health lol
and i enjoyed it much more knowing i couldnt die...the game became a fun experience...but like you said..speed running..it took me 6 hours to beat lol
Demons souls is a 6 hour game without its difficulty...
Which is the point im trying to make lol
All a difficult ac would do is add 5 hours to game play and give you the impatient feeling of wantingthe game to be over...
There isnt a single game othert than AC where i am sad when its over because its a true enjoyable experience for me
Then again I am a casual type..im not a hardcore gamer lol

ProletariatPleb
07-24-2013, 06:01 PM
But nobody said we need Dark Souls style unforgiving difficulty....

ladyleonhart
07-24-2013, 06:03 PM
Here her, don't worry, the other creepy Egyptian is here to give you a shoulder.

Frost, what are you talking about??

Assassin_M
07-24-2013, 06:05 PM
Demons souls is a 6 hour game without its difficulty...
Any game is a 5 hour game without a main appeal...

If AC had no story, it`d be 5 hours
If it had no open world, it`d be 5 hours

STDlyMcStudpants
07-24-2013, 06:07 PM
Any game is a 5 hour game without a main appeal...

If AC had no story, it`d be 5 hours
If it had no open world, it`d be 5 hours
Story, open world and difficulty are not equal elements
difficulty is at the bottom of the pit..who actually pops in a game and plays hard on purpose (for reasons other than trophy/achievement) ? -_-

ArabianFrost
07-24-2013, 06:07 PM
Frost, what are you talking about??

Browsing these forums miserably on phone happened.

Assassin_M
07-24-2013, 06:12 PM
Story, open world and difficulty are not equal elements
difficulty is at the bottom of the pit..-
Too bad that`s all in your head...

there`s no equal or bottom of the pit or right or wrong to an appeal, that`s just idiotic...

Open world is an appeal, Story is an appeal and difficulty is an appeal. some prefer the first, others prefer the middle and other the latter..

I started the Last of Us on Hard....didnt really even consider trophies...I did it on purpose, because I can....because I like difficulty and challenge....so there goes your little theory

ladyleonhart
07-24-2013, 06:13 PM
...who actually pops in a game and plays hard on purpose (for reasons other than trophy/achievement) ? -_-

I do and I play games for many reasons and difficulty is a nice choice to have. Although, I think you have missed the point.


I played Demons souls in god mode..which is infinite health after playing it on normal mode wich is 1 hit and you die health lol
and i enjoyed it much more knowing i couldnt die...the game became a fun experience...

Also, your take on difficulty is very simplistic. No one said dying from one hit would make AC more enjoyable.

STDlyMcStudpants
07-24-2013, 07:09 PM
I do and I play games for many reasons and difficulty is a nice choice to have. Although, I think you have missed the point.



Also, your take on difficulty is very simplistic. No one said dying from one hit would make AC more enjoyable.

Twilight zone @_@

ladyleonhart
07-24-2013, 07:13 PM
Twilight zone @_@

That makes no sense.

Ureh
07-24-2013, 09:10 PM
I like difficulty of all kinds as long as the game is reasonable, that it gives me the power I need to overcome the seemingly insurmountable obstacles, able to defeat aggressive yet intelligent enemies, solve intricate puzzles, etc. Greater difficulty also has a roleplay benefit for me cause some stories and their characters are meant to be depicted in a world that has so many odds against us. To be able to overcome those odds makes me feel like I survived... And sometimes even won. Or if the story was meant to instill tragedy, I'll be like "All that for nothing?!" or " I really tried but that still happened?" It offers a type of satisfaction and empowerment that usually aren't found elsewhere.

I also understand the need for smooth sailing easygoing games and moments too. To not have all that tension hanging on my shoulders all the time is also refreshing.

Gi1t
07-24-2013, 09:37 PM
Oh, you meant New Game Plus. Then I would like everything you suggested apart from having all the upgrades. I have played games with New Game Plus, and honestly for me, I didn't find it stimulating enough. Yeah, it was a bit harder, but I didn't like the fact that I had everything at hand. If you know what I mean. Then I very much preferred to start the game from the beginning.

Yeah, I thought it meant Ninja Gaiden at first. XD But I think new game plus could be the future of difficulty settings if people get more ambitious with it. :D The key to having difficulty settings that don't suck is to actually change the challenges you face in the main story. Don't just bup up a couple of stats and call it hard mode; change the game so that you encounter more challenging opponents earlier in the game, add in new threats that weren't there before and make the enemies actually behave differently. (Don't just speed up the animations, make them defend more too and make it so that player has to use the game's more advanced tactics to win.) Most difficulty settings just aren't worth my time because it's just the same thing but more annoying. The games that really make the game feel different on higher difficulty settings are the ones they should model themselves after.

Tales games have a new game+ feature where they let you pick the stuff you want for your next playthrough. You can choose what stuff you want to keep and what bonuses or handicaps you want to give yourselves or your enemies. I'd like to see that applied in such a way that people could really define what they consider to be 'challenging'. For example, they could choose to add more enemies, or make the ones you find more difficult or make them stronger or replace them with tougher enemies. Players could decide if other aspects of the game should be thougher too, like puzzles. With this, they could make a difficulty setting that they actually enjoy and it could be far more difficult than a preset difficulty setting, potentially. ;)

But if they want to make AC harder, they first need to make it deeper. They need more variation in defensive actions and aggressive ones and a solid system for how they work together and cancel each other out in different circumstances. Only then can you have advanced tactics and once you do that, you can make enemies that require the use of those tactics. Then you've got te ability to make the game challenging. :)

ACRules2
07-24-2013, 09:40 PM
I voted for 'Yes, but with difficulty levels'.
It's not fair on other people if they have to play too hard a game, when they were expecting something a bit easier.
So difficulty levels for me.

dxsxhxcx
07-24-2013, 09:41 PM
I voted on "Yes, but only with difficulty levels" because I think difficulty levels will also add more replay value and won't force an increase of challenge to everyone, those who don't care about challenge (or lack of it) would still have the easy mode (as it is now) and the others will have more options to choose... this way ubisoft will be able to please everyone (or at least will be a step closer to it)...

Gi1t
07-24-2013, 09:49 PM
I like difficulty of all kinds as long as the game is reasonable, that it gives me the power I need to overcome the seemingly insurmountable obstacles, able to defeat aggressive yet intelligent enemies, solve intricate puzzles, etc. Greater difficulty also has a roleplay benefit for me cause some stories and their characters are meant to be depicted in a world that has so many odds against us. To be able to overcome those odds makes me feel like I survived... And sometimes even won. Or if the story was meant to instill tragedy, I'll be like "All that for nothing?!" or " I really tried but that still happened?" It offers a type of satisfaction and empowerment that usually aren't found elsewhere.

I also understand the need for smooth sailing easygoing games and moments too. To not have all that tension hanging on my shoulders all the time is also refreshing.

Oh yeah. Difficulty requires timing. :) It needs to match the circumstances of what you're doing. If you're fighting an opponent and they've been set up in the story as easy, they shouldn't suddenly be really difficult. If you're fighting your big rival or a really intimidating enemy, that's when you should get your a** kicked a few times before you win. If your character is in the middle of his big a**-kicking scene and the really cool music starts playing, that shouldn't be interrupted by 'whoops, you're dead' unless you're really not trying. You don't want to kill the momentum of the story with a gameplay sequence that doesn't match it. If a moment doesn't feel like a point when the main character could actually die, try to set things up so that the player is a lot less inclined to die if they're trying not to.

ladyleonhart
07-24-2013, 10:08 PM
Yeah, I thought it meant Ninja Gaiden at first. XD

LOL


But I think new game plus could be the future of difficulty settings if people get more ambitious with it. :D The key to having difficulty settings that don't suck is to actually change the challenges you face in the main story. Don't just bup up a couple of stats and call it hard mode; change the game so that you encounter more challenging opponents earlier in the game, add in new threats that weren't there before and make the enemies actually behave differently. (Don't just speed up the animations, make them defend more too and make it so that player has to use the game's more advanced tactics to win.) Most difficulty settings just aren't worth my time because it's just the same thing but more annoying. The games that really make the game feel different on higher difficulty settings are the ones they should model themselves after.

I totally agree with you! xD I thought New Game Plus would be the same game with all the items when you start the game. That's how I have experienced it anyway. Yes, more challenge is what I would like, but as you mentioned not simply in the case of stats, or making the main character die more easily. I think this is a view a lot of people share when you talk about difficulty levels.


Tales games have a new game+ feature where they let you pick the stuff you want for your next playthrough. You can choose what stuff you want to keep and what bonuses or handicaps you want to give yourselves or your enemies. I'd like to see that applied in such a way that people could really define what they consider to be 'challenging'. For example, they could choose to add more enemies, or make the ones you find more difficult or make them stronger or replace them with tougher enemies. Players could decide if other aspects of the game should be thougher too, like puzzles. With this, they could make a difficulty setting that they actually enjoy and it could be far more difficult than a preset difficulty setting, potentially. ;)

Personally, I love that idea in the sense that it may provide the balance that everyone is looking for! :D It is very interesting that you can add handicaps and choose what to have. Also when I talked about difficulty levels maybe being an option, I was referring to someone who thought that the game should be more difficult regardless of the people that didn't want it to be more difficult. Then, I wouldn't want to force that on anyone. I still feel that everyone should have the choice.


But if they want to make AC harder, they first need to make it deeper. They need more variation in defensive actions and aggressive ones and a solid system for how they work together and cancel each other out in different circumstances. Only then can you have advanced tactics and once you do that, you can make enemies that require the use of those tactics. Then you've got te ability to make the game challenging. :)

Wow! I'm not always good at explaining things, but... it's just like you read my mind! :D

dxsxhxcx
07-24-2013, 10:10 PM
Oh yeah. Difficulty requires timing. :) It needs to match the circumstances of what you're doing. If you're fighting an opponent and they've been set up in the story as easy, they shouldn't suddenly be really difficult. If you're fighting your big rival or a really intimidating enemy, that's when you should get your a** kicked a few times before you win. If your character is in the middle of his big a**-kicking scene and the really cool music starts playing, that shouldn't be interrupted by 'whoops, you're dead' unless you're really not trying. You don't want to kill the momentum of the story with a gameplay sequence that doesn't match it. If a moment doesn't feel like a point when the main character could actually die, try to set things up so that the player is a lot less inclined to die if they're trying not to.

this would defeat the purpose of difficulty settings, if I set the difficulty on hard, I want all the enemies on this mode to be harder to defeat than they would be on "normal mode" and not just those who look strong because of the story, these enemies should be a little harder to kill by default and on a higher difficulty they should represent a greater challenge..

CarthageBP
07-24-2013, 10:12 PM
I voted yes on this, largely because the last two AC games have felt like "Follow the Leader". I want to have an objective, target, or tail, and not be told, step-by-step, how to complete it. Assassins are supposed to be skilled problem solvers, hunters, and observers. I shouldn't need checkpoints every five feet to tell me how to get somewhere, and after almost 1000 years I think I've figured out how to kill someone without a QuickTime event.

Gi1t
07-24-2013, 10:36 PM
this would defeat the purpose of difficulty settings, if I set the difficulty on hard, I want all the enemies on this mode to be harder to defeat than they would be on "normal mode" and not just those who look strong because of the story, these enemies should be a little harder to kill by default and on a higher difficulty they should represent a greater challenge..

Well, what I said really applies more to the first time you go through the game than it does on harder difficulties. I didn't mean that on hard mode, the enemies that are presented as weak shouldn't be any tougher. I meant that the relative difficulty should gel with the story. If you'r eturning up the difficulty then of course the overall challenge should go up regardless and if you've been through the game before, having the difficulty flow with the story isn't as crucial since you know the story already. :)

@ ladyleonhart: Thank you! :D

Sushiglutton
07-24-2013, 10:47 PM
Yes AC needs to be more challenging, but it needs to be in combination with better mechanics! The higher quality the gameplay is, the harder you can make the game without it feeling cheap/frustrating for the player. AC's mechanics are not robust enough at the moment to make the game hard. But I hope they will improve them over the next few games, and if they do they should def add a higher difficulty mode. A higher difficulty will elevate some of the quests from tedious chores to engaging activities, which would be a huge win!

I'm not crazy about a NG+ mode for AC at all. The upgrade system is fairly flat, so there is no real need to start with everything. Also I would prefer to be challenged on my first playthrough, not play 25h of lukewarm entertainment just to get to the good stuff. NG+ is overrated imo.

luckyto
07-24-2013, 11:05 PM
A couple thoughts..

1) I actually see what STD is saying. And he's saying that harder doesn't always mean that it's better gameplay. Sometimes, the best gameplay is just goofing off and using the mechanics of the "world" to have fun. Sometimes, you just want to play. Personally, I will usually play a game that is story-based on easy first, and then if I like the game, I will redo it on "God" mode or whatever is the hardest difficulty. Because that way I enjoy the story without the frustration and maintain the proper pace.

2) If you're Assassin died in 1-2 hits, then you would play the game differently. You would use stealth more. And when you did fight, you'd be a hell of a lot more careful about your moves and how you approached combat. I'm not saying that I want that (because I don't) in the main game, but it would be nice to have a extreme difficulty setting.

3) What I really want is player choice. The ability to tackle missions a variety of ways. If I have that, then I will challenge myself sometimes and take the easy road sometimes. Or both. The system and game mechanics should allow me to approach an objective from many different ways. That's what opens up the possibilities for the player to use his brain and solve different objectives creatively. We've had less and less of that with each subsequent release.

LoyalACFan
07-25-2013, 02:58 AM
What I really want is player choice. The ability to tackle missions a variety of ways. If I have that, then I will challenge myself sometimes and take the easy road sometimes. Or both. The system and game mechanics should allow me to approach an objective from many different ways. That's what opens up the possibilities for the player to use his brain and solve different objectives creatively. We've had less and less of that with each subsequent release.

This. Call me "casual", but I'm not really into games that are actually hard to beat. If I want to challenge myself, I'll go through in complete stealth, or finish a fight in a single combo without taking a hit. I don't want to see "DESYNCHRONIZED" every five seconds.

RinoTheBouncer
07-25-2013, 03:09 AM
This. Call me "casual", but I'm not really into games that are actually hard to beat. If I want to challenge myself, I'll go through in complete stealth, or finish a fight in a single combo without taking a hit. I don't want to see "DESYNCHRONIZED" every five seconds.

Not to mention the long loading screen.
I agree with you.


A couple thoughts..

1) I actually see what STD is saying. And he's saying that harder doesn't always mean that it's better gameplay. Sometimes, the best gameplay is just goofing off and using the mechanics of the "world" to have fun. Sometimes, you just want to play. Personally, I will usually play a game that is story-based on easy first, and then if I like the game, I will redo it on "God" mode or whatever is the hardest difficulty. Because that way I enjoy the story without the frustration and maintain the proper pace.

2) If you're Assassin died in 1-2 hits, then you would play the game differently. You would use stealth more. And when you did fight, you'd be a hell of a lot more careful about your moves and how you approached combat. I'm not saying that I want that (because I don't) in the main game, but it would be nice to have a extreme difficulty setting.

3) What I really want is player choice. The ability to tackle missions a variety of ways. If I have that, then I will challenge myself sometimes and take the easy road sometimes. Or both. The system and game mechanics should allow me to approach an objective from many different ways. That's what opens up the possibilities for the player to use his brain and solve different objectives creatively. We've had less and less of that with each subsequent release.

I totally agree. I don't really look for VERY EASY games that makes me laugh at every boss fight or assassination and finish it in 5 hours but I'd rather play a game that entertains me for 12 hours rather than have me die and repeat over and over for 12 hours and call it a challenging and long experience.

Sometimes one wants to see the story, relive the experience, enjoy the game not challenging one's scores and abilities. Games like AC are famous for their cinematic style, heavy and emotional cutscenes and dialogues that one would just want to replay to watch it like a film so I guess I'd rather go with Difficulty Choices rather than a "frustratingly challenging experience" or just keep it as it is but make it smarter not harder. Make us think not become frustrated and bored.

Ureh
07-25-2013, 04:35 AM
This. Call me "casual", but I'm not really into games that are actually hard to beat. If I want to challenge myself, I'll go through in complete stealth, or finish a fight in a single combo without taking a hit. I don't want to see "DESYNCHRONIZED" every five seconds.

Yea that my fav difficulty too. I'll keep restarting until it's the way I want. >:]

Oh yea don't forget rewatching cutscenes over again. o_O

STDlyMcStudpants
07-25-2013, 06:24 AM
3) What I really want is player choice. The ability to tackle missions a variety of ways. If I have that, then I will challenge myself sometimes and take the easy road sometimes. Or both. The system and game mechanics should allow me to approach an objective from many different ways. That's what opens up the possibilities for the player to use his brain and solve different objectives creatively. We've had less and less of that with each subsequent release.
I think the ACB missions with Da Vinci's inventions are a perfect example of this...they were easily one of the hardest missions I've done in any game I've played (especially for the flying machine mission..getting into the tower and on top without being seen) I like the shuffle
IMO the last mission of AC3 was actually pretty difficult too...not nearly impossible, but definitely took a few tries to get the right path during the chase

Jexx21
07-25-2013, 06:35 AM
Hardest Da Vinci mission was the tank mission. Couldn't get full sync for my life. I never did get full sync on ACB.

ladyleonhart
07-25-2013, 06:40 AM
Yes AC needs to be more challenging, but it needs to be in combination with better mechanics! The higher quality the gameplay is, the harder you can make the game without it feeling cheap/frustrating for the player.

I agree! xD


I'm not crazy about a NG+ mode for AC at all. The upgrade system is fairly flat, so there is no real need to start with everything. Also I would prefer to be challenged on my first playthrough, not play 25h of lukewarm entertainment just to get to the good stuff. NG+ is overrated imo.

I was sceptical about NG+ too and I would rather start a new game then begin with everything. However, I don't have that much experience with using NG+, then maybe it would be a step closer to achieving the balance people require.



What I really want is player choice. The ability to tackle missions a variety of ways. If I have that, then I will challenge myself sometimes and take the easy road sometimes. Or both. The system and game mechanics should allow me to approach an objective from many different ways. That's what opens up the possibilities for the player to use his brain and solve different objectives creatively. We've had less and less of that with each subsequent release.

This is what I would love to see most of all! xD Then it would add to the challenge as you would have to strategize and think about the best way to approach the situation! :D

ladyleonhart
07-25-2013, 03:20 PM
I just want to add... To me, difficulty doesn't mean that it should be so hard that it is frustrating but that it should be more challenging allowing you to think more and play in various ways, which also adds to replay value. Also I, too, love the story and just want to sit back and take everything in! xD

luckyto
07-25-2013, 03:54 PM
I think the ACB missions with Da Vinci's inventions are a perfect example of this...they were easily one of the hardest missions I've done in any game I've played (especially for the flying machine mission..getting into the tower and on top without being seen) I like the shuffle
IMO the last mission of AC3 was actually pretty difficult too...not nearly impossible, but definitely took a few tries to get the right path during the chase

Good examples.

I actually think AC1's main assassination contracts are the best at player choice. You can choose very direct routes and engage fifty guards, or you can use the environment and the information at your disposal to plan a very difficult pure stealth approach. Some ways to assassinate targets are quite difficult, and some ways are simply not. It's really up to me to decide which sounds the most fun at the time.

Jexx21
07-25-2013, 04:04 PM
Yea, they have said they are bringing open ended AC1-style assassinations in Black Flag, which is a good thing.

But to be honest, there were only a couple of routes in AC1 that were satisfying (the stealthy ones for me).