View Full Version : Speed Vs. Climb Rate: What's more important in BnZ?

03-01-2004, 02:22 PM

03-01-2004, 02:22 PM
When looking for a good energy fighter, which aspect is more valuable to scoring kills and making it home alive? I'm torn between the D-9 for its speed and the K-4 for its climb rate. Maybe some speculation in this thread will help me pick my ride once and for all. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

03-01-2004, 02:25 PM
A good blend of both I guess! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


When it comes to aircombat, I'd rather be lucky than good any day!

03-01-2004, 02:29 PM
Climb Rate would be slightly more important than speed IMO.

With a good climb rate youâ'll have more leniency in your speed needs thus allowing you more time and more accuracy in your targeting.

IL-2 original P-39 vet soon to be P-63 vet.

03-01-2004, 02:32 PM
Tough call but I'd say unless the speed is backed up with acceleration, I'd go with climb rate but I'm talking energy fighting here.

Dive speed is the main criteria for BnZ because all planes exceed their level speed during steep dives, so the ability to climb is also not as important because the zoom climb will usually carry you back to a safe altitude for another pass.

Most things like top speed, acceleration and climb rate only matter when you are at near equal E states, then pilot skill can turn the tides. When the BnZ fighter has a very large E margin beginning his attack, that E margin makes climbrates and maximum level speed issues momentarily insignificant and his only main criteria are dive speed and the alertness of his target.

During E fighting, I'd say that on a practical note climb rate is more important because it allows you to extend faster while gaining more potential energy, so in a limited way you are double dipping from the energy pot so to speak. Outrunning a fighter by level speed also gains an E state advantage, but the difference is in 10-30kph for most planes, not really enough to make a rapid change in E states between the two fighters.

Altitude is potential energy, therefore sustained climb rate is an important factor in E fighting, much more than maximum level speed imho.


03-01-2004, 02:43 PM
I'd go with dive speed and high speed controls. Hard to BnZ without either.


03-01-2004, 02:59 PM
Speed. Though climb is also an important issue, but I'm with the speed...

"Once upon the time..there was an aircraft that ruled the skies of Europe..."

03-01-2004, 03:08 PM
speed speed speed.

"Dive speed is the main criteria for BnZ because all planes exceed their level speed during steep dives,"

and the amount over your level speed that you are when you start pulling up affects how quickly you lose your speed in the climb. 109s do not climb better (i.e. more energy efficiently) than FWs when pulling out of a high speed dive. The FW can come back for another pass sooner than the 109 becasue of this (the 109 needs to climb higher after the pass becasue it loses more energy in each pass than the FW does, so it takes more time to get it back).

I did an online test with a squadmate to compare some planes. One of the comparisons we did was FW190A4 vs bf109G2. Both start at 2000m at 400kph TAS, FW190 is the lead. FW190 turns on smoke, bf109 follows the same path as the 190. 190 dives shallow and pulls up shallow, then we did another test where the 190 dives shallow and pulls up steep. 190 was much better in the dive and much better in the early pullout. When the 190 is going fast it loses less speed for the same amount of climb than the 109, once the dive gets the planes fast the 190 gains more speed from the same loss of altitude as the 109.

If it is just you and him then I would say climbrate so long as top speed and such are good enough, but if there is a possibility of other enemy planes then you want speed, speed speed. The 190 reaches a higher speed more quickly in the dive and loses it less quickly in the ensuing climb, so it can come back down more often in a given amount of time, so quicker to kill enemy before his friends show up. better to have more speed when his friends show up than to have more altitude (assuming his friends have some kind of performance at all).

03-01-2004, 03:45 PM
Without speed you have no climbrate

03-01-2004, 04:29 PM
Speed is important, just look at the Me-262 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

But seriously, gaining the advantage in altitude is very important and that is the pilot's responsibility. As for the plane I agree with Korolov, especially about high-speed handling. I fly the 190 ALOT and when I jump in a late 109 I get all excited becuase I can turn & climb. Then I dive, start lining up/anticipating my shot angle, pull on the stick, and....NOTHING! Then I curse as my prey drifts out of my windscreen and I'm helpless to do anything but climb back up.

Firepower is also a must IMHO. BnZing with a single 20mm would be trying to say the least.

But if I had to pick from the original poll I'll take speed every time. The 190A can't climb anyway. Easier to disengage with superior speed also.


Formerly Kyrule2

03-01-2004, 07:37 PM
very good lecture here: ...... let me join too http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

speed vs drive and let me put 2 factor to limit scope of dimension of idea
1) initial state : ok let say 109K and 190d meet at 4k ( below then 4k not good for 190d.. ) and Head on pass
not shoot H2H just pass and both have same speed
2) tactic for each one use : let say
A) 109K use climb and turn
B.1)190D use dives shallow and pulls up steep ( as Fillmore point .... and I like that to ) or
B2) up to you .......... ?

opening state ( this state just my idea , any friend can modify this state what every you perfer ... ) http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
ok now . let see , After they both pass for initial state and look back to each other then apply their tactic 109K try to get to top tactic while 190D maintain speed ( but not run a way ok ,,, http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif he just try to setup trap by flat turn )

X ) so 109K build advantage in attitude and start drive attack first while 190D dives shallow and pulls up steep
.... well that most interesting coz 109D can pull up higher from his trap... then 109D has more chance for his kill in the next move.....
Y) but if 109K not buy that trap but still keep build advantage in attitude to apply hi-speed BnZ so ... that make
109K playing pro-active only one side..

at the end ..... situation advantage and tactic still be a majoy key , but for me I agree with -Zen- , I like batter climb plane to build my advantage at first choice ...

oh.... anyone can recomment me for my stupid idea here , I like to read http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif