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XyZspineZyX
08-03-2003, 01:30 AM
the jagdgruppen claimed 432 kills on the first day including 62 bombers.german losses on the first day amounted to only 26 aircraft,luftwaffe flew 37,421 sorties throughout the battle,destroying 1,735 enemy aircraft for the loss of 64. this fact Q? NOW WHO THINKS LW PLANES ARE OVER MODELED

XyZspineZyX
08-03-2003, 01:30 AM
the jagdgruppen claimed 432 kills on the first day including 62 bombers.german losses on the first day amounted to only 26 aircraft,luftwaffe flew 37,421 sorties throughout the battle,destroying 1,735 enemy aircraft for the loss of 64. this fact Q? NOW WHO THINKS LW PLANES ARE OVER MODELED

XyZspineZyX
08-03-2003, 01:56 AM
where do you have read that ?


http://www.bayern.de/Layout/wappen.gif

Bavaria is one of the oldest European states.
It dates back to about 500 A.D., when the Roman Empire was overcome by the onslaught of Germanic tribes. According to a widespread theory, the Bavarian tribe had descended from the Romans who remained in the country, the original Celtic population and the Germanic invaders.

Bavarian History : http://www.bayern.de/Bayern/Information/geschichteE.html#kap0

XyZspineZyX
08-03-2003, 02:27 AM
WARFARE and the THIRD REICH the rise fall of hitlers armed forces by christophers chant,or is this pilot skill a facter here ?

XyZspineZyX
08-03-2003, 02:29 AM
battle of kursk only lasted a few days. how did the LW launch 37,431 air missions in a few days? that sounds impossible.

www.fighterjocks.net (http://www.fighterjocks.net) home of the 11 time Champions Team AFJ. 6 Years Flying http://www.world-data-systems.com/aerofiles/albums/userpics/p47-22.jpg

Message Edited on 08/03/0301:31AM by RedDeth

XyZspineZyX
08-03-2003, 02:46 AM
LW field at least 1000 aircraft in direct support of ZITADELLE repersenting 50 per cent of the total forces available for the whole sorviet front.ll/jg54 with 190a-5 and bf 109g6 fighters/ soviet with latest, la-5 and yak-9 fighters.luftwaffe flew over 3,000 sorties a day this effort decareased to around 1,500 sorties per day after the first week

XyZspineZyX
08-03-2003, 02:50 AM
brookt wrote:
- the jagdgruppen claimed 432 kills on the first day
- including 62 bombers.german losses on the first day
- amounted to only 26 aircraft,luftwaffe flew 37,421
- sorties throughout the battle,destroying 1,735 enemy
- aircraft for the loss of 64. this fact Q? NOW WHO
- THINKS LW PLANES ARE OVER MODELED


No LW planes were, fine it is their pencils were overmodeled... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
I wonder what did they smoke, those years to come up with those numbers? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


AKA_Bogun

---------------
The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense.

- Tom Clancy

---------------
Ilsa: "That was the day the Germans marched into Paris."
Rick: "Not an easy day to forget. The Germans wore grey, you wore blue."
Ilsa: "Yes. I have put that dress away. When the Germans march out, I'll wear that dress again."

- Casablanca, 1942

XyZspineZyX
08-03-2003, 02:58 AM
These figures cannot be true.
The number of sorties flown would have resulted in more A/C being lost to accidents than what is being stated, let alone combat losses.
Re-check your sources-

S!
Chris


http://members.cox.net/miataman1/wurger.bmp

XyZspineZyX
08-03-2003, 03:04 AM
Because of the short distance from field to the battle there were numerous 6 and 7 soties a day per plane.The first day soviets had advanced warning of the attack and tried to get the LW's fields before takeoff.The LW intercepted the attack and I believe only one group made a halfhearted attack on a german airbase.The LW had its last fling in russia during kursk the germans had almost total air superiority throughout the short battle.With the allied invasion of sicily and homeland requirements the LW was soon cut down to about 1000 planes for the whole eastern front until the end of the war.These are not made up they are printed in soviet and german as well as US and british sources.



Message Edited on 08/03/0302:07AM by turenne

XyZspineZyX
08-03-2003, 03:05 AM
while these impressive figures applied to the battles in KURSK salient,elswhere the situation gave cause for conccern.german losses in june totalled 487,rose to 911in july and in august were 785 over the entire eastern front

XyZspineZyX
08-03-2003, 03:25 AM
the point is all this LW whines talk when the facts talk for them selfs,

XyZspineZyX
08-03-2003, 03:33 AM
That's one statement I'd call overstatement.
As far as I know the Germans fielded a little more than 1.500 aircraft for operation Citadelle and if they had to fly 37.000 sorties they each had to fly 20 sorties on their own that is.
Are you serious??


rgds

XyZspineZyX
08-03-2003, 03:40 AM
no thats 3 sorties a day

XyZspineZyX
08-03-2003, 03:56 AM
brookt wrote:
- no thats 3 sorties a day

Yes, for each aircraft, but you don't send an aircraft out on a sortie on their own....
I guess we are discussing how to count a sortie here, I'd say that a mission flown by 10 aircraft is one sortie and not 10 sorties.

rgds

XyZspineZyX
08-03-2003, 03:57 AM
The first thing that I would do is if you find a statement that seems perplexing don't post that it is impossible,look it up.You can't have good give and take in a converation about history without facts,if your just using your own opinions on matters there can be no give and take.As far as german sources go they were and are meticulous.The did nothing without writing it down.That's how we know exact dates times and figures for the holocaust.If they were that sick to keep careful records of that you can imagine what their other paperwork was like.Everyother country tried to hide genocide and yet their are the germans filling out daily totals.When losses in the air can be checked on the allied side the german tally's are 95% on.

XyZspineZyX
08-03-2003, 04:43 AM
I think the source is "combat report of ninth army and second panzer army on the battle of the Orel bend, 5th July-18 Aug 1943".Ninth army high command , Karlsruhe Document collection , GVI 5a. The figures are for the first air division. This unit was heavily reinforced by other units. It claimed to have flown 37,421 sorties shat down 1,735 enemy aircraft 1671 by fighter action for a loss of only 64 planes. In addition claimed to put out of action 1100 tanks and 1300 wheeled and tracked motor trucks. A kill ratio of 27 to 1 sounds fanciful and the figure for the tanks would be the one -third of the total number committed during the battle. The master race did not win control of the battle field so could not verify these figures.
The rule of thumb seems to be something like divide tank kill claims by 10 and air kills by 3.

XyZspineZyX
08-03-2003, 05:34 AM
Russian Air Forces of al three Fronts (Central, Voronezh and Central) which were taking part in Kursk Battle lost 459 aircrafts from June 5 to June 23, 1943.

AKA_Bogun

---------------
The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense.

- Tom Clancy

---------------
Ilsa: "That was the day the Germans marched into Paris."
Rick: "Not an easy day to forget. The Germans wore grey, you wore blue."
Ilsa: "Yes. I have put that dress away. When the Germans march out, I'll wear that dress again."

- Casablanca, 1942

XyZspineZyX
08-03-2003, 06:11 AM
so u guys think that LW planes are undermodeled or is it pilot skill that is the case here?

XyZspineZyX
08-03-2003, 06:30 AM
As I said, Luftwaffe planes were fine, it is their imagination was somewhat overmodeld.
3.7 times overmodeled, to be more precise.. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif


AKA_Bogun

---------------
The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense.

- Tom Clancy

---------------
Ilsa: "That was the day the Germans marched into Paris."
Rick: "Not an easy day to forget. The Germans wore grey, you wore blue."
Ilsa: "Yes. I have put that dress away. When the Germans march out, I'll wear that dress again."

- Casablanca, 1942


Message Edited on 08/03/0301:33AM by Bogun

XyZspineZyX
08-03-2003, 08:30 AM
Bogun wrote:
- Russian Air Forces of al three Fronts (Central,
- Voronezh and Central) which were taking part in
- Kursk Battle lost 459 aircrafts from June 5 to June
- 23, 1943.
-
- AKA_Bogun
-
Bollocks, losses just from 5 to the 8 of July for the VSS during/in/over Kursk were 566. Losses from June 5 to 23 were around 1000. Krivosheev has for some uncountable reason yet explained has arrived a the lower number in spite of VSS loss reports stating over 1000.


(M.N Kozhevnikov The command and Staff of the Soviet army airforce during the great patriotic war pp.134-6)

For comparsison
1st Air divison lost 94 planes in 12,823 sorties June 5 to 15


VIII Corp lost 99 planes in 14,398 sortie June 5 to 15

XyZspineZyX
08-03-2003, 08:45 AM
Bogun wrote:
- As I said, Luftwaffe planes were fine, it is their
- imagination was somewhat overmodeld.
- 3.7 times overmodeled, to be more precise.. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
-
-
- AKA_Bogun
-
Less over modelled than the Russian claims that tally over 5000 German aircraft destroyed if ground kills are also counted, 3500 of the kills claimed were in the air... Compared with the actual 200 Luftwaffe planes lost to all causes during the period the Soviet over claiming is staggering in its scope.


OKL would also halve the claims to arrive at working figures, these are pretty spot on unless one uses the unusually low soviet losses reported by Krivosheev and contested by the VSS own loss figures.

Message Edited on 08/03/03‚ 08:48PM by Bastables

Message Edited on 08/03/0309:34PM by Bastables

XyZspineZyX
08-03-2003, 08:51 AM
Seems there are huge changes on russian side regarding to casulties. More and more revealing documents are released to public. (These were secret documents not for public view). Most Books older than 1990 regarding the Battle of Kursk base on German Archive Stats and Memories of both sides.

Newer ones use russian and german achieve sources.
Here is a review of a newer book.
http://www.kansaspress.ku.edu/glabat.html

Here is an excellent read about the Citadelle Operation
http://www.geocities.com/armysappersforward/kursk.htm

Claiming German Kill ratio is not right is hard to proof.

For example German Infantry and AAA units claims 400 Soviet Planes downed on the 1st day of Kursk too how would you check this ? Maybe 1 pilot and 1 aaa gunner did claim the same plane or 2 aaa claim it.

And Soviets claim to have destroyed more panthers and tigers tanks than actually took part in the operation .

Different understanding of plane loss is an issue too .)
Sturmoviks for example could be field repaired in some cases after they got downed. And there is no 1/2 kill or 1/3 Kill in LW confirmend kills. Another thing is that the newer introduced VVS rule for kills said without physical downed plane to show no kill.

So this Stats dont tell much about the Situation . And 3 to 6
sorties a Day is not impossible.

Tully__
08-03-2003, 09:00 AM
jmmoric wrote:
- brookt wrote:
-- no thats 3 sorties a day
-
- Yes, for each aircraft, but you don't send an
- aircraft out on a sortie on their own....
- I guess we are discussing how to count a sortie
- here, I'd say that a mission flown by 10 aircraft is
- one sortie and not 10 sorties.
-


I believe when you're discussing kill/loss ratios, sorties is each individual aircraft, not squadrons/groups. Hence a squadron of 12 would be 12 sorties.

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Salut
Tully

XyZspineZyX
08-03-2003, 09:09 AM
the battle of Kursk final report ,is a good link and joy to read ,Does any one have links on the air battle at the Kursk

XyZspineZyX
08-03-2003, 09:09 AM
Tully__ wrote:
-
- I believe when you're discussing kill/loss ratios,
- sorties is each individual aircraft, not
- squadrons/groups. Hence a squadron of 12 would be 12
- sorties.

Okay, I've been doing some digging and found the answer:

quote
Quick definitions (sortie)

noun: an operational flight by a single aircraft (as in a military operation)
noun: a military action in which besieged troops burst forth from their position
unquote

The answer lies in the translation from english to my language, after translated one sortie has the same meaning as one mission...

rgds

XyZspineZyX
08-03-2003, 11:05 AM
Just to make it clear:

Soviet Official losses number (published in 1993)

Kursk defensive battle - 5.7-23.7 1943 - 459 planes lost ( 24 planes per day)

Orel offensive - 12.7-18.8 - 1014 planes lost (27 planes per day)

Belgorod-Kharkov offensive 3.8-23.8 1943 - 153 planes lost (7 planes per day)

Total losses: from 5.7 to 23.8 - 1626 planes lost

Krivosheev, Grif sekretnosti snyat, Moscow 1993, ISBN 5-203-01400-0, p.370

XyZspineZyX
08-03-2003, 11:30 AM
Those figures are total rubbish ,the red air force took off just before the battle started in order to pre-empt the germans because they new what was comming and actually gained control of the air , zitadelle handed the military initiative to the russians for the rest of the war .True the germans gains some success in the air but your figures ,huh !

brookt wrote:
- the jagdgruppen claimed 432 kills on the first day
- including 62 bombers.german losses on the first day
- amounted to only 26 aircraft,luftwaffe flew 37,421
- sorties throughout the battle,destroying 1,735 enemy
- aircraft for the loss of 64. this fact Q? NOW WHO
- THINKS LW PLANES ARE OVER MODELED
-
-

XyZspineZyX
08-03-2003, 11:51 AM
johnnyJohnson_ wrote:
- Those figures are total rubbish ,the red air force
- took off just before the battle started in order to
- pre-empt the germans because they new what was
- comming and actually gained control of the air ,
- zitadelle handed the military initiative to the
- russians for the rest of the war .True the germans
- gains some success in the air but your figures ,huh
- !
-

Yet the VVS own acknowledged loss figures are staggering when compared with the LW's. VVS pre-emptive attack was a complete failure

5 to 10 of July 2nd Air army lost 153 fighters representing 40 percent losses starting the battle with 389 fighters.

16 Air Army was down to 706 aircraft by the 10 of July beginning with 1,052 combat aircraft.



For comparing the LW losses during Kursk
1st air division from 5 to 10 July lost 31 aircraft in total.

VIII korp from 5 to 10 July lost 55 aircraft in total.

These figures do not tell a story of VVS domination after the failed pre-emptive strikes.

XyZspineZyX
08-03-2003, 02:37 PM
Just a couple of thoughts....

Kursk was won on the ground - huge airbattles took place of course but regardless of how well or badly the LW or VVS did, it made no difference to the outcome of the battle on the ground.

The Wehrmacht was whacked out by Zitadelle but AFAIK LW still had one major defensive action left in it to stop encirclement of certain Wehrmacht positions after Zitadelle's failure on the ground (I need to check as I may be wrong). Anyway, that suggests to me that the LW finished Zitadelle in better fighting condition than Wehrmacht, so maybe the LW was less savaged than was the Wehrmacht.

If the LW did better than VVS at Zitadelle, the main point is that airpower is a necessary but insufficient factor in achieving victory. Again, AFAIK neither side won outright air superiority on either leg of the intended pincer movement.

Even if Zitadelle had worked it would have really only delayed further Soviet offensives for 6 months or so: Zitadelle was conceived to buy the Germans time. Any thoughts on when Germans abandoned strategic initiative in USSR i.e. when they gave up on the notion of toppling Stalin and destroying Bolshevism?

XyZspineZyX
08-03-2003, 02:52 PM
But again with all the different threads not just this one when presented with both sides facts and figures on what basis do you people argue.As has been brought up twice the massive soviet attack on the first day was a total failure with massive losses.It's like saying the germans invaded russia on august 8th.Also again to rebuttle LW had almost complete air superiority throughout kursk.

XyZspineZyX
08-03-2003, 03:23 PM
Funny, guess it depends on which book you read from, my figure I have for the Northern Front only from Model's Army was by 9 July (4 days after the start of Operation Zitadelle) - Losses : 50,000 troops, 400 tanks and 500 aircraft. By July 9 on the northern front, the VVS already had air superiority. On the ground Model's Army were simply stuck, impossible to advance pass Ponyri...


On the Southern Front, the thrust towards Oboyan, the Germans made more progress but stopped making gains by 12 July, still 15 km south of Prokhorovka. It's also on that date the tide has changed in favor of the VVS. The figures of planes for Operation Zitadelle alone is 1800 for the Luftwaffe, 2100 for the VVS. On average the Luftwaffe made 1100 sorties a day, with a peak of 1500 on July 9 on the Southern Front. I don't have the VVS figures.

And to conclude, I am actually working on a more precise series for FB for Operation Zitadelle, I have 10 mission completed and few more to go. Then there will be the counter-offensive made by the Soviets which will last 'til
August 5 with the fall of Orel and Belgorod for these 2 maps. So I can expect to have about 20 mission for the series. These and many other series can be found on IL2 Hangar



------------------
Eric


http://srm.racesimcentral.com/il2.shtml

XyZspineZyX
08-03-2003, 03:44 PM
bazzaah2::
-- Any thoughts on when Germans abandoned strategic
-- initiative in USSR i.e. when they gave up on the notion
-- of toppling Stalin and destroying Bolshevism?

Stalingrad. After that the German soldier was afraid of being in Russia, the Russian soldier knew his/her side would win.

turenne::
-- Also again to rebuttle LW had almost complete air superiority throughout kursk.

I would have to partially agree, at least initially. But the German superiority in the air could not defend German troops from Soviet air attacks. And from what I read the number of German sorties decreased more severely than Soviet sorties during the battle.

The most important thing for us is the multiple sorties flown by pilots, something we can't do in FB. And that many pilots were shot down, transported back to their airfields, and "re~planed" for another sortie that same day. This was summer, so they had about 14 hours of daylight, something we could more easily deal with if we could re~arm and re~fuel or change a damaged plane for a flyable one during a long FB mission game.

XyZspineZyX
08-03-2003, 03:57 PM
DR_Hangar wrote:
- Funny, guess it depends on which book you read from,
- my figure I have for the Northern Front only from
- Model's Army was by 9 July (4 days after the start
- of Operation Zitadelle) - Losses : 50,000 troops,
- 400 tanks and 500 aircraft. By July 9 on the
- northern front, the VVS already had air superiority.
- On the ground Model's Army were simply stuck,
- impossible to advance pass Ponyri...
-
-
Your book must have Soviet claims of German casualties and then purporting them as actual German losses or both 9th armee and Army group south casualties because

Armeearzt AOK 9 Q.U. 10.7.1943, 19.7.1943, 25.7.1943 and 1.8.1943 BA-MA RH 20-9/441 and Wermacht Verlustwesen file BA-MA RW 6/v. 564 (aka the actual German record of casualties for the periods) have from 5 to 11 July 22,273 KIA/MIA/WIA total for the 9th armee.

The 400 AFV lost by 9th armee is also incredibly high as BA-MA RH 10/65 shows 88 AFV lost in the period 5-14 July.

Again 500 planes lost? Yet 1 Air Division supporting 9 Armee lost only 94 planes from 5 to 15 of June.

Again your book seems to be painting Russian claims/estimates as actul German losses.

XyZspineZyX
08-03-2003, 04:39 PM
Can't quibble with primary sources and good to see them used. As I understand it the 9th Armee was at the northern pincer. Do you have figures for Manstein's group in the south?

But I must say that 88 AFVs seems, well, maybe a little light for such a major offensive action over a 6 day period on a front of approx 150kms against defenses the Soviets had prepared for months. Indeed, why would Guderian then write of Zitadelle?

'By the failure of Zitadelle we had suffered a decisive defeat. The armoured formations reformed and re-equipped with so much effort had lost heavily in both men and in equipment and would now be unemployable for a long time to come.' From 'Panzer Leader'.

I had read figures more like 550 AFVs lost in north and south areas from 5-11 July.

But Soviet losses were bigger, but they could stand them I guess.

Just askin'.

XyZspineZyX
08-03-2003, 05:20 PM
bazzaah2 wrote:
- Can't quibble with primary sources and good to see
- them used. As I understand it the 9th Armee was at
- the northern pincer. Do you have figures for
- Manstein's group in the south?
-
- But I must say that 88 AFVs seems, well, maybe a
- little light for such a major offensive action over
- a 6 day period on a front of approx 150kms against
- defenses the Soviets had prepared for months.
- Indeed, why would Guderian then write of Zitadelle?
-
- 'By the failure of Zitadelle we had suffered a
- decisive defeat. The armoured formations reformed
- and re-equipped with so much effort had lost heavily
- in both men and in equipment and would now be
- unemployable for a long time to come.' From 'Panzer
- Leader'.
-
- I had read figures more like 550 AFVs lost in north
- and south areas from 5-11 July.
-
-

The 550 AFV lost seem again to be based on Soviet estimates/claims of destroyed German AFV. I've also seen 1500 German tanks lost 5 july-23 augest based on Soviet records and even 2644 lost by army group south and 928 from 9th armee from 5 to 15-July again based on Soviet records. One should not look to the oppsing sides claims when trying to find the real losses of an army.

Army Group South lost 190 Tanks 5-17 July.

Guderian got it wrong, the loss of fewer than 300 tanks/assault guns during Zitadelle can be compared with 511 Panzers and 300 StuGs/assulte guns being sent from the factory to the Heer during July. This is counter to his prophecy pre Zitadelle that tank losses would be so great that they could not be made good during 1943. Guderian has an axe to grind and a pre Zitadelle prophecy to support. Comparisons can be made with Krivosheyev pointing out that during the 50 days of "Kursk" 121 Soviet tanks and assault guns were total losses per day.

During the third quarter of 1943 Soviet tank and assault production (5,761) could not keep up with the irretrievable losses of 8,953 Tanks and assault guns during six major operations in the third quarter of 1943. Zitadelle, Orel and the Belgorod-Karkov operation in the third quarter 43 alone accounted for 6,064 tanks and asault guns irretrievable loss.

XyZspineZyX
08-03-2003, 07:39 PM
OK but does seem counterintuitive for such a major offensive to be a failure but to have relatively light tank losses, esp. given failure of Ferdinands, mechanical trouble on Panther etc etc and reliance on inferior tanks such as Panzer III in an offensive that was far from blitzkrieg and all the more since infantry losses were large. What was German strength at beginning of offensive? And uninreinforced at end?

Are you really saying that Germans had more AFVs at end of Zitadelle than before?

From what I can tell, the Orel counteroffensive could have opened for the Soviets an opportunity to get going with something like Bagration (aka Destruction of Army Group Centre?) a year or so early had there not been same hasty, unauthorised withdrawls. Either Germans were presumptious in their expectation to win at Kursk or Soviets underestimated their own capacities for offensive action. probably latter as tables were turned in a week.

I'd like to understand this more so your thgts please.

XyZspineZyX
08-03-2003, 11:16 PM
The second Panzer Army was holding the Orel river bulge. The ninth army thrust ran into difficulties. Then a Russian Army brigade broke through the defensive line and established itself on the only road and rail supply route. The threat of imminent catastrophe even greater than Stalingrad. In a series of heavy air attacks the LW succeeded in preventing a Russian break through. These delays enabled ground commanders to make gradual withdrawals in some semblance of order. And straighten the front lines. The Army was trying to use the LW to replace divisions. The practice reached absurdity in July 1944 when an attempt was made to use the HE 177 in the ground attack role.

XyZspineZyX
08-03-2003, 11:31 PM
I got similar numbers as Bogun has:

On 5th July 43 the LW lost 260a/c, V-VS ca.175 a/c

From 5-8th of July losses for the V-VS ca.558a/c, for the LW 854 a/c.

On 5th of July the LW flew ca. 3000sorties, from 6-9th July decrease, down to ca. 1500 sorties, after the 9th July again a reduction to 1000 sorties per day.

http://www.geocities.com/kimurakai/SIG/262_01011.jpg


"Kimura, tu as une t√¬™te carr√©e comme un sale boche!"

EJGr.Ost Kimura

XyZspineZyX
08-04-2003, 12:47 AM
Salute

Here are the figures I have for German losses by month during '43


German Monthly Aircraft Losses in 1943 by Front. First number is total Aircraft losses/Second number is Fighter losses

Month---------------Eastern---------------------Mediterranean------------------Northwest Europe

January--------------482--85------------------------282--124------------------------176--87

February------------318--63------------------------206--89--------------------------182--77

March---------------314--100----------------------308--140-------------------------256--140

April----------------238--67------------------------572--247-------------------------256--143

May-----------------331--110-----------------------333--97--------------------------331--183

June-----------------249--85------------------------235--131-------------------------313--157

July-----------------558--201-----------------------711--246-------------------------526--335

August-------------472--150-----------------------321--133-------------------------625--248

September---------338--99------------------------503--167-------------------------522--276

October------------279--94------------------------285--92---------------------------530--281

November---------194--45------------------------180--54---------------------------529--281

December---------Not Available


These are from "Luftwaffe" by Williamson Murray, and are taken from original Geschwader records.

XyZspineZyX
08-04-2003, 01:12 AM
Some of the 109's are overmodeled. That's why they were fixed in the patch.

Da Buzz
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<center>
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XyZspineZyX
08-04-2003, 03:09 AM
I know one thing , the Russian losses where so great at the battle of Kursk That the High Command almost moved the whole army groupe command back 500 miles.

It took the Russians 6 month to replace the tanks and aircraft that where destroyed with there factorys , and with the import of part and planes from the U.S..

The Germans on the other hand had a fuel problem onward to the end of the war on the Russian front because of the large stocks that where used up. And because of the Alied bombing of the oil fields to the south.

Yes I can see where when two large armys clash that their would be masive use of air and ground power.

And the Battle of Kursk is still though of as the largest tank and air battle that has been , even to this day.

XyZspineZyX
08-04-2003, 08:31 AM
My Granddad took part on Kursk./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://www.geocities.com/kimurakai/SIG/262_01011.jpg


"Kimura, tu as une t√¬™te carr√©e comme un sale boche!"

EJGr.Ost Kimura

XyZspineZyX
08-04-2003, 09:25 AM
Excerpt from KTB of VIII Fliegerkorps:

July 5 1943

Losses: 4 He 111, 1 Ju 88, 1 Fw 190, 1 Hs 126, 12 Bf 109

July 6 1943

Losses: 6 Ju 87 (davon 5 durch Flak), 1 Ju 88



Excerpt from KTB Luftflotte 6:

July 5 1943

Losses: 1 Ju 88, 1 He 111, 2 Ju 87, 1 Bf 110 (Zerst√¬∂rer), 2 Fw 190 (J√¬§ger)

July 6 1943

Losses: 3 Ju 88, 1 Ju 87, 1 Bf 110, 1 Fw 190

And and and ...

Source: Air Battle over Kursk 1943 (http://www.luftboard.ndo.co.uk/index.html)

Hardly the "hundreds of planes" claimed by the VVS.

---------------------------
http://home.t-online.de/home/340045970094-0001/lwskins_banner_gross.jpg (http://www.lwskins.de.vu)
Historical Skins for Luftwaffe-Fighters

XyZspineZyX
08-04-2003, 11:59 AM
RAF74BuzzsawXO wrote:
-
-
- These are from "Luftwaffe" by Williamson Murray,
- and are taken from original Geschwader records.


About Williamson Murray.
in his book "War in the Air ".
he wrote about the german flak:

...........w√¬§hrend die Fliegerabwehreinheiten rasch zunahmen, obwohl deren mangelnde Schlagkraft in Deutschland bekannt war. Aus psychologischer Sicht wirkte der Donner der in den Nachthimmel feuernder Gesch√ľtze jedoch als moralische St√ľtze........ /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif



and about switzerland and sweden:

.........und die geldhungrigen Schweden und Schweizer gegen gute Bezahlung gern bereit waren, den Nazis mit allem zu versorgen, was ihre Kriegsmaschinerie in Gang hielt.

NOTE:but this doesnt means , he has not the right number about the german losses. just a short note about this writer





http://www.bayern.de/Layout/wappen.gif

Bavaria is one of the oldest European states.
It dates back to about 500 A.D., when the Roman Empire was overcome by the onslaught of Germanic tribes. According to a widespread theory, the Bavarian tribe had descended from the Romans who remained in the country, the original Celtic population and the Germanic invaders.

Bavarian History : http://www.bayern.de/Bayern/Information/geschichteE.html#kap0

Message Edited on 08/04/03‚ 11:00AM by Boandlgramer

Message Edited on 08/04/0311:01AM by Boandlgramer

XyZspineZyX
08-04-2003, 01:10 PM
soviet campaigns of 1943-44 were the clearest exploit of there skill with numerical air superiority,weaken the luftwaffe opposed to it by constant shifting pressure up and down the front,but without the pressure exerted in the west the balance in the east would have been radically different,thanks for the post been sum good reading

XyZspineZyX
08-04-2003, 01:21 PM
This is what the Luftwaffe reported for July 5th 1943.
~4400 sorties
~380 claims
26 losses



Tageseins√¬§tze 5.7.1943
a/ VIII. Fl.Korps
2387 Flugzeuge, davon [snip]

Starke Jagdabwehr. Kampf-, Stuka- und Schlachtfliegerverb√¬§nde griffen
mit Schwerpunkt vor II. SS-Pz.Korps ein. Erfolge: 7 Panzer, 30 Gesch√ľtze,
70 Kfz, 9 Muni- bzw. Betriebsstofflager vernichtet.
Absch√ľ√üe: 220 Feindflugzeuge im Luftkampf etwa 40 Feindflugzeuge durch Flak
Verluste: 4 He 111, 1 Ju 88, 1 Fw 190, 1 Hs 126, 12 Bf 109.


b/ Luftflotte 6
2088 Flugzeuge, davon [snip again]


Der Angriff der 9. Armee wurde durch Kampf-, Stuka- und Zerst√¬∂rerverb√¬§nde unterst√ľtzt.
Absch√ľ√üe: 163 im Luftkampf 2 durch Flak
Verluste: 1 Ju 88, 1 He 111, 2 Ju 87, 1 Bf 110 (Zerst√¬∂rer), 2 Fw 190 (J√¬§ger).
Besonderes: Erdkampfverb√¬§nde der 12. Flak-Div. haben vernichtet: 66 Kampfst√¬§nde,
1 Flak-Bttr. mit 4 Gesch√ľzen, 1 Salvengesch√ľtz, 2 Flugzeuge.

XyZspineZyX
08-04-2003, 01:45 PM
The LW OOB for July 4 for Kursk can be found here

http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/2072/lwkursk.html

A/c quantites can be found here

http://ww2.dk/


for example I./JG 51 with Fw 190A-4s and A-5s based at Orel in June

I./JG51 started the month with 16 Fw 190A-4 and 27 Fw 190A-5. At the end of the month it was 17/23 a/c (40 a/c total), respectively.

The unit recieved 8/7 a/c while 7/11 were lost(total - combat accidents, transfer out).

At the end of July the unit had only 15 A-4s, 11 A-5s and 7 A-6s (33 total). It had recieved 9 A-4, 10 A-5, 17 A-6 but lost 16 A-4, 18 A-5, 6 A-6 a/c(40 total).

http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/crandall-stormclouds2.jpg


Message Edited on 08/04/0308:52AM by MiloMorai

XyZspineZyX
08-04-2003, 05:14 PM
Evaluating "AFV loss" figures can often be very difficult, because that simple phrase can mean different things. For some, it means the total number of vehicles lost or disabled in combat. For others, it means only the number of vehicles irretrievably lost or destroyed on the battlefield and does not include disabled vehicles which had been retrieved, repaired, and returned to service. Disabled vehicles almost always out-numbered those destroyed by a very wide margin, and the Germans operated an excellent field repair service during WW2. This might well be a contributing cause of the wide disparity in reported numbers of AFV losses.


Blutarski

XyZspineZyX
08-06-2003, 11:12 AM
bazzaah2 wrote:
-
- OK but does seem counterintuitive for such a major
- offensive to be a failure but to have relatively
- light tank losses, esp. given failure of Ferdinands,
- mechanical trouble on Panther etc etc and reliance
- on inferior tanks such as Panzer III in an offensive
- that was far from blitzkrieg and all the more since
- infantry losses were large. What was German strength
- at beginning of offensive? And uninreinforced at
- end?
-
- Are you really saying that Germans had more AFVs at
- end of Zitadelle than before?
-
- From what I can tell, the Orel counteroffensive
- could have opened for the Soviets an opportunity to
- get going with something like Bagration (aka
- Destruction of Army Group Centre?) a year or so
- early had there not been same hasty, unauthorised
- withdrawls. Either Germans were presumptious in
- their expectation to win at Kursk or Soviets
- underestimated their own capacities for offensive
- action. probably latter as tables were turned in a
- week.
-
-

No they did not (Heer) have more AFV after Zitadelle, they did have more modern tanks, even though by Kursk already around half of the Panzers were IVlangs who's 8cm hull armour could only be penetrated at sub 500m by Soviet 76,2cm and "whose" 7,5cm L/43 could kill the T-34s at 1500m. Counting the StuGs with their long 75s and 8cm hull/superstructure armour, the T-34 faired very poorly. The ascendancy of upgraded Panzers coupled with examinations of captured panthers meant that the T-34 was declared obsolete. A special commission stated, "the T-34 is no longer match to the current war conditions. It become permeable for Germans guns at all ranges"." and T-34-85 was envisaged to close the huge gap that had appeared. Unfortunately the hull armour could not be thickened as the chassis became overloaded, for comparison the T-34-85 after working out the bugs would require engine/track/transmission overhaul at 1500-2000km. The much derided unreliable Panther ausf A during the muddy period and winter of 43/44 stood at 1500-1800km.



By 43Oct the "Tank" fleet equalled and then surpassed the pre Kursk numbers. The invasions of Italy and Normandy esp had the greatest success in drawing off Panzer production.

Even in the winter of 1942 during Operation Mars Soviet tank corps were leery of engaging the emaciated Panzer divisions of AGC and when they did as Operation Mars degenerated into a massive bloodletting of Soviet troops the T-34 equipped Tank corps came off poorly with the half strength Panzer Divs. Bagration is Operation Mars vol II

German Manpower losses for Zitadelle: 56,827 MIA/KIA/WIA 3% of the years total.

German manpower losses for 1943: 1,601,454.

Soviet manpower losses for Zitadelle: 177,847 MIA/WIA/KIA 2.7% of the years total.

Soviet manpower losses for 1943 7,857,503



German Fig from BA-MA RH 2/1343
Soviet Fig from G.F. Krivosheyev's, Grief Sekretnosti Sniat

XyZspineZyX
08-06-2003, 11:27 AM
Cess-Harpoon wrote:
- I know one thing , the Russian losses where so great
- at the battle of Kursk That the High Command almost
- moved the whole army groupe command back 500 miles.

Actually the Soviets mounted their planned summer offensive immediately after Kursk. That was the largest operation mounted until then and moved the frontline several hundred miles toward Germany (the Panther/Wotan line).


- It took the Russians 6 month to replace the tanks
- and aircraft that where destroyed with there
- factorys , and with the import of part and planes
- from the U.S..

Do you have any sources for that? Just curious since that's very new to me.


- And the Battle of Kursk is still though of as the
- largest tank and air battle that has been , even to
- this day.

Some would claim that the clashes between Israel and Syria in the 1973 Yom Kippur war was the largest tank battle ever.


cheers/slush

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You can't handle the truth!
Col. Jessep

XyZspineZyX
08-06-2003, 11:30 AM
bazzaah2 wrote:

- Any thoughts on when Germans abandoned
- strategic initiative in USSR i.e. when they gave up
- on the notion of toppling Stalin and destroying
- Bolshevism?

Militarily I would say that the German strategic initiative was lost at Stalingrad, but brilliantly recovered until Kursk, when it was totally lost. After Zitadelle the Germans were on the strategic defensive, and their various counter-attacks were planned with that sole condition in mind.

cheers/slush

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You can't handle the truth!
Col. Jessep

XyZspineZyX
08-06-2003, 11:56 AM
Slush69 wrote:
-
- -
-
-- It took the Russians 6 month to replace the tanks
-- and aircraft that where destroyed with there
-- factorys , and with the import of part and planes
-- from the U.S..
-
- Do you have any sources for that? Just curious since
- that's very new to me.
-
-- <img
- src="http://dk.groups.yahoo.com/group/aktivitetsda
- ge/files/Eurotrolls.gif">
-
- You can't handle the truth!
- Col. Jessep

Try G.F. Krivosheyev's, Grief Sekretnosti Sniat

also
Mark Harrisons "Accounting for war: Soviet production, employment and the defence burden 1940-1945."

XyZspineZyX
08-06-2003, 12:24 PM
Bastables wrote:
-
- Try G.F. Krivosheyev's, Grief Sekretnosti Sniat
-
- also
- Mark Harrisons "Accounting for war: Soviet
- production, employment and the defence burden
- 1940-1945."
-

Thanks a lot! I'll check them out. I was wondering since Soviet tank production numbers were incredibly high in 1943/44, so 6 months worth of production should more than outstrip the Soviet tank losses at Kursk - even given the requirements of other fronts.

In a quick search I found a very interesting title: Zetterling, Niklas and Anders Frankson. Kursk 1943: A Statistical Analysis. London: Frank Cass, 2000.

It's reviewed at http://www.sonic.net/~bstone/archives/001002.shtml

cheers/slush



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You can't handle the truth!
Col. Jessep

XyZspineZyX
08-06-2003, 12:44 PM
brookt wrote:
- ll/jg54 with 190a-5 and bf 109g6 fighters/ soviet with latest, la-5 and yak-9 fighters.luftwaffe flew over 3,000 sorties a day this effort decareased to around 1,500 sorties per day after the first week


Yes I remember that, it was sweaty work but it had to be done /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-06-2003, 02:57 PM
Hi guys!

The Battle of Kursk has always fascinated me and has long been a favourite for study.

The German High Command was divided over 'Zitadelle'. Russian defensive preparations did not go un-noticed and the price for failure would be high. But those who favoured the plan felt that SOMETHING had to be attempted.

While there was no illusion of reversing the tide of war, it was felt that success at Kursk would weaken the Russians enough to allow the Germans a much more favourable position.

Of interest is fresh information that has come mainly from Russian sources since the fall of communism, leading historians to re-think many aspects of this and other classic encounters.

Fundamentally however, it still comes out with the Russians in front, albeit at a horrific cost in human life and equipment.

German forces performed very well, when all is considered, against an enemy that was so well prepared. But it was not enough. Failure to 'nip out' the salient meant failure of the last German attempt to recover even the smallest bit of strategic initiative.

If Stalingrad was the coffin of German hopes in the East, Kursk nailed down the lid. From now on, Germany would be on the strategic defensive, with no chance of a come-back.

As a footnote, for historic tank battles of size, somebody mentioned the Yom Kippur war of 1973. This did indeed rival Kursk for the sheer number of units engaged. (Even the 1956 and 1967 wars approached this scale.)

Also to be considered 'in the ballpark' is the (now almost forgotten) Iran/Iraq war of the 1980's. Although not well reported in the West, some very large tank battles occurred during this conflict.

Best regards to all,
panther3485