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XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 12:29 AM
The 109 has died. Oleg murdered it. IT's time to say our goodbyes.


Goodbye 109.

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 12:29 AM
The 109 has died. Oleg murdered it. IT's time to say our goodbyes.


Goodbye 109.

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 12:30 AM
Oh,for pete's sake! Do you really think Oleg won't fix this?! Kids......

47|FC
http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/p47-6.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 12:35 AM
How about you leave with it? Freaking drama queens.

25th_Buzz
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XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 12:39 AM
Oleg will correct this-
I remember... (SNORE!) No! Please stay awake! I remember back a year or 2 with IL2 a similar prob with its patch release and there was a mini patch for it the very next day!

So it`s not that unusual, thinking about it. He`ll probabaly be just a little red-faced.





"Tis better to work towards an Impossible Good, rather than a Possible Evil."

SeaFireLIV.

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 12:51 AM
Yes, the rudder is a problem, but everything else has been hurt too. everything from speed to handling to climb.
Goodbye 109.

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 12:54 AM
Waaaaaaaaah....What ever will I do??? I can't go around flying something older than 1944!!! Did the war even take place before then? Its not neary fast or nimble or modern or interesting enough...WHERE ARE MY LAZERS DAMMIT!?!?!

http://a1944.g.akamai.net/7/1944/1402/00051812009/images.barnesandnoble.com/images/910000/910118.jpg

"M@ss genocide's the most exhuasting activity one can engage in, next to soccer."
~Loki

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 12:55 AM
Oh great!

This is already the second patch I won't install. I'm still flying 1.0 as what I read about 1.1b made me not to install it. Same for 1.1 final.

Dubbo2 has a funny signature and if I use that I would say little similarily about the buggy patches...

It's only funny til K4 loses a rudder....then it's hilarious /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

I have experience in testing (both SW and HW) and I can say that the testing process failed miserably. Actually I wonder how the hell they managed to break something that already worked. Of course I have no idea what kind of spaghetti code they make... or maybe they use 'Architecture by implication' or some other antipattern method.

Just had to blow off some steam as I really waited for this patch /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 12:59 AM
well, needless to say 109 = garbage still so, back to SOF2 with me.

I refuse to fly the uber la7, fastest plane in the game, as well as good handling bah, wins everywhere but in the gun department.

ZG77_Nagual
09-05-2003, 01:03 AM
What're you talking about - I just took up a g6as and it's better than ever!

>drama queens< LOL

http://pws.chartermi.net/~cmorey/pics/p47janes.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 01:08 AM
I don't look at handling as an issue, not as much as speed, the top end and the acceleration and the climb.

I haven't started tests on the climb and the acceleration, but I can already tell you the La7 will win due to the fact it is uber. I mean its faster than a dora, you also get the added bonus of good handling to, and the guns well... I prefer my 30mm's but the planes that have them arn't up to par to fight that La7 1 on 1, same advantages...

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 01:56 AM
god, just cause you dunno how to fly a 109 it is surely not spoiled. They are even better than in version 1.0 only problem is the K4s rudder. The G2's climb rate is even e bit uber in my opinion and i say that althought the G2 is my fav plane. so stop whinning

2 things we need in FB:
The 110 and the desert!!!
http://exn.ca/news/images/1999/04/23/19990423-Me110coloursideMAIN.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 02:07 AM
Liar :P

http://www.goodbrush.com/gallery/albums/sketches/downshot_samurai.thumb.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 02:18 AM
I haven't even faught anything with the K4 yet... so are you telling me that the 109 is fast, are you saying it can outrun a La7 on the deck???? and are you telling me it can outturn a La7? I am not disputing its a good bnz plane but anyplane can do that. I haven't even flown online with it but just with the tests I have done it shows its not the one to choose if you are in it to win the dogfight. no advantages... K4 same alt speed as La7... or any prop plane for that matter.

La7 should eat em up.

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 03:12 AM
i have not install 1.1final yet.i am on working now.can anyone tell me what has happened on G6,G10,G14

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 03:15 AM
K-4 is but one of zillion Bf109s we have in the game.

..

The others all feel exquisite and pleasant to fly(that is, before one hits the 400mph mark..)





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Due to pressure from the moderators, the sig returns to..

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XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 03:29 AM
Flew G-14 in QMB against 4 LA7 on ace... got 3 bastiges....4th one kill me pilot..

Hello 109!!!! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Regards,
VFC*Crazyivan
http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/ivan-reaper.gif

"No matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down." Ivan Kozhedub

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 03:41 AM
Suck it up. Learn to fly it so you don't die. Us P-47 whiners have had to deal with it for a long time, now we pass on the torch to you. Learn to deal with the 109 how it is now or find a different plane/game.

<img src="http://www.geocities.com/agrill101/Sig.jpg.txt"

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 03:56 AM
Whining for a major player,

and whining for a bonus plane which had insignificant role at best in the main 'arena' which the game itself was based on, but receives humongous attention over others just because it is of a certain nationality,

is totally different.




-----------
Due to pressure from the moderators, the sig returns to..

"It's the machine, not the man." - Materialist, and proud of it!

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 04:05 AM
So are you saying that because it doesn't play a big role in this theater it doesn't deserve to be modeled correctly? Am I understanding this right?

<img src="http://www.geocities.com/agrill101/Sig.jpg.txt"

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 04:07 AM
Greetings all!
Yes, I agree somewhat with shifty... Learn to fly the 109; spend a little time with it and one will find that it's a wonderful plane! It has it's advantages, believe me. Noone said that you could just jump into a 109 and own the skies. If you prefer turn-fights, especially at low altitude, then the 109 is not for you. You have to be patient, and wait, and wait, and anticipate 3 maneuvers ahead of the one you are currently in to come out on top, and win the day. Brains flies the 109, not muscle.
-Regards PJ-

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 04:08 AM
Shifty101 wrote:
- So are you saying that because it doesn't play a big
- role in this theater it doesn't deserve to be
- modeled correctly? Am I understanding this right?


And because a plane you like was not modeled correctly, people should not complain about problems with other planes?

Am I understanding this right?





<img src=http://www.johnsonsmith.com/images/p1039.jpg>

Eeeeeeeeeee.......

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 04:13 AM
I'm not saying he can't whine, but learn to deal with it. If what Oleg has modeled in the game is realistic then why complain? Isn't that what everyone wants, a completely realistic experience? I'm guessing, ONLY GUESSING, that the 109 won't get much more tweaking. Now you are left with a few options. You can complain and complain to no avail, you can learn to deal with it, or you can complain and learn to deal with it all at once. I personally chose to learn to deal with the P-47 pre-1.1 and learn how to fly it to stay alive. I have flown the 109 in 1.1 and it is not a bad plane, in fact it can own the skies. You have to realize that it can't BnZ like the 262 where you dive 500 meters and zoom up 1000 meters or whatever it does. The 109 takes time to learn how to fly and it takes forever to learn how to master. Instead of complaning try going into the game and flying it over and over and over until you find out how to use it.

<img src="http://www.geocities.com/agrill101/Sig.jpg.txt"

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 04:24 AM
"So are you saying that because it doesn't play a big role in this theater it doesn't deserve to be modeled correctly? Am I understanding this right?"

Maybe the priorities are different?



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Due to pressure from the moderators, the sig returns to..

"It's the machine, not the man." - Materialist, and proud of it!

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 04:30 AM
LA7 uber??? lmao thats rich. the dora fw and 109 all eat LA7s easy.

www.fighterjocks.net (http://www.fighterjocks.net) home of the 11 time Champions Team AFJ. 6 Years Flying http://www.world-data-systems.com/aerofiles/albums/userpics/p47-22.jpg 47|FC=

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 04:31 AM
Well, i'm having a riot in the Emil.

And the rudder works. Result !


Lixma,

Blitzpig.

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 04:39 AM
Bah, I flew a 109F2 versus 12 ai ace LA7s with B20s and got.. well i got smoked http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

http://www.goodbrush.com/gallery/albums/sketches/downshot_samurai.thumb.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 04:56 AM
EyesBlack i know you M8 ... trust me
in FB v1.1b the BF will out-turn the LA-7 , especially at high speeds

ive been doing it at high speeds in FB v1.0 & ive been doing it more in FB v1.1b

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 05:02 AM
Want realistic, take an La-7 verses I-16 on vet or ace. Than be prepared to laugh you hind end off. One of these things is off, they can't both have the same flight model, can they?

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 05:16 AM
Shifty101 wrote:
- You have to realize that it can't
- BnZ like the 262 where you dive 500 meters and zoom
- up 1000 meters or whatever it does.

its not that good, you get good climb performance you gotta dive from 2000m then its no snap climbing. La-7 out climbs it initially, and would thrash the jet if the pilot went vertical. right now, the 262's strength is in its speed. Keep that up and nothing can touch you.

Also, in regards to "Goodbye 109" I never fly it except in coop and find it quite fine for killing P-51's and the like. Not my a/c of choice, but not crappy either.

MD_FuryFIghter



Message Edited on 09/05/0304:16AM by MD_FuryFighter

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 05:17 AM
It's crappy now. Be sure.



_______________________________
Hauptmann Jochen "Heidi" Heiden
Jagderband 44
www.JagdVerband44.com (http://www.JagdVerband44.com)

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 05:42 AM
Shifty101 wrote:
- If what Oleg has modeled in the game is
- realistic then why complain?

Er....because he hasn't, ever. lol If he did, it wouldn't be an issue. However, he's interested only in duplicating some "super secret" soviet docs. No matter that they often go against the rest world and often even logic itself. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 05:50 AM
kweassa wrote:
-
- Whining for a major player,
-
- and whining for a bonus plane which had
- insignificant role at best in the main 'arena' which
- the game itself was based on, but receives humongous
- attention over others just because it is of a
- certain nationality,
-
- is totally different.
-

The caveat is that the aircraft still had a tremendous impact in WWII, possibly as big as that of even the Il-2. Do not forget, it became the USAAF counterpart to the Il-2 and FW-190, and saw extensive service in nearly every other theater of the war. In the span of only three years, we produced over 15,000 Thunderbolts, and at least 10,000 of those were deployed to combat zones.
We actually produced more Thunderbolts than the ubiquitous P-40.

So, where you see the USAAF, you will see the Thunderbolt.

Anyways, the La-7 is no longer very good. I just flew an offline dogfight against one, and found it far easier to defeat, and destroyed it with only about five rounds on target, of 0.50 ammo. It's still fast, but that's about it.

Harry Voyager


http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0YQDLAswcqmIpvWP9dLzZVayPXOmo6IJ16aURujNfs4dDETH84 Q6eIkCbWQemjqF6O8ZfvzlsvUUauJyy9GYnKM6!o3fu!kBnWVh BgMt3q2T3BUQ8yjBBqECLxFaqXVV5U2kWiSIlq1s6VoaVvRqBy Q/Avatar%202%20500x500%20[final).jpg?dc=4675409848259594077

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 06:09 AM
Don't know where you guys get this K4 can outturn La7's n stuff I must not be playing the same game sheesh.

and as for the late 109's having advantages over others... tell me what advantage it has that makes the 109 better than any other plane.... tell me I am curious cause I don't see it. 1 on 1, same alt, same speed... a clean 1 on 1 fight.... I don't see it climb all that much better, its not faster, it doesn't have a superb roll rate... I sure don't see it outturning La7's, regardless u shouldn't but u can't outrun so... what else is there to do.

Like I said it is a good bnz plane but other than that... it caught at equal level 1 on 1, I don't see it holding its own at all.

The thing that makes this plane good is its 30mm gun,... so strict bnz, if you ever met a plane on the same alt and energy level than u what do you do..... tell me...

The 109 is now a plane with a big gun, and as for the 109 being better now than ever.. that is just flat out wrong.

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 06:17 AM
Point duly noted, Harry_V.

..about as to the other half of the Bf109 discussion..

Does it never occur in one's mind, that the AI might actually be out-flying oneself?

Why are we assuming every test/trial flight we do against either an AI or someone else, we aren't making any mistakes, and the other guy is doing something impossible?

Submit a "fishy track", and I bet I can count out the 'fatal mistakes' in almost every account I see.








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Due to pressure from the moderators, the sig returns to..

"It's the machine, not the man." - Materialist, and proud of it!

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 06:27 AM
All my tests so far I haven't even shot at a plane, just me in the 109... find the top speed... refly, do some turns.. get the feel... Go to another, do the same, and I just don't see the 109 outperform anywhere

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 06:59 AM
im sure oleg will sort it out for you 109 pilots http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 07:06 AM
i have been on LA-7s six in cockpitt locked servers & they have noticed me & break turned ..... all this was at high speeds mind you ...... & we both went into near blackout high G turns & as i was loosing speed i was staying at the same deflection

the person in the LA-7 was a squadmate & he said to me he was also riding the Blackout hard & had the throttle nailed the whole fight like i had

anyways the G14 i was flying stuck with the LA-7 not loosing turning angle untill we got under 260 Kph

sorry but the BFs will turn with the LAs at high speeds

BF pilots now are in the position ( slightly ) where they cannot get away & have to fight like everyone else does

many BF lovers are fantastic TnB fighters & they will tell you that it is still down to the pilot & the planes is the lesser part of the kill

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 07:11 AM
I really don't see it outturn even at high speeds either, ummm besides most of the time all you heard was, oh don't turn with the 109 its a no no... errr now you are telling me to crank the b|tch.

This alone tells me that somethings been changed drastically.. maybe to drastically in these god forsaken patches.

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 07:56 AM
I fly almost only the 109 since il2 so i think I know it a little at least... I installed the patch yesterday. I'm sincerely surprised. I tried online the G10 and the G6/AS (I wait for the k4 fix to fly it). Now, call me a noob if you want or put your head under the sand. The 109 seems to have lost her superior climb, speed and acceleration features. I widely used the spiral climb in the past and it always worked. Now even against an La7 - not as powerful as before - or even against the P 39, the spiral climb is an almost suicide maneouvre. I will make more test and eventually correct my opinion, but don't tell that the 109 is improved. Only guns are better know and it's a damn fragile plane.

<FONT COLOR="yellow">BBB_ABRAXA</FONT>

<center>http://ourworld.cs.com/Abra772/mc205_3.jpeg </center>

<marquee> <FONT COLOR="red"> Si vis pacem, para bellum</FONT></marquee>

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 08:07 AM
ABRAXA you and I few together in il2 and did testing there and I`ll say I`m with you on this 1 all the way.

And there are 5 other 109 drivers that agree.

But hell everyone else is saying the 109 is better now thats why we see in a online game 3 Yak-3, 2 La-7 1 P-39 and a china man to named later in an online game now!!!!!!!

But not to many 109`s!!!!!!

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 08:16 AM
Hi Cooler! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif How are you mate? Always fun to fly and fight with a skilled and fair pilot like you! Yes I still remember our cornerspeed, flaps, flight and fight tests since il2 /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif and I look forward for more games together.
Any serious 109 pilot that I know seems to share these opinions regardless of what we read sometimes. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

<FONT COLOR="yellow">BBB_ABRAXA</FONT>

<center>http://ourworld.cs.com/Abra772/mc205_3.jpeg </center>

<marquee> <FONT COLOR="red"> Si vis pacem, para bellum</FONT></marquee>

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 08:22 AM
Yeah it has been awhile since we have flown together we will have to do it again soon....

I guess we will just have to do a 109 server only and have some fun!!!!

Be cool !!!!

~S~

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 08:29 AM
"i have been on LA-7s six in cockpitt locked servers & they have noticed me & break turned ..... all this was at high speeds mind you ...... & we both went into near blackout high G turns & as i was loosing speed i was staying at the same deflection

the person in the LA-7 was a squadmate & he said to me he was also riding the Blackout hard & had the throttle nailed the whole fight like i had"

What you yourself have written alone, is pretty much self explanatory, is it not?

A sustained state of turn with two planes at simular speeds, both riding hard the black-out. Ask your squadmate this:

"Is it your pilot who cannot withstand the turn, or is that truly the limit your La-7?"

In many other posts, people including me, have explained such instances - at high speeds, the G loads and inertia of the turn work against the turn performance of a plane in many aspects. In many cases a better turning performance is rendered practically useless, as whatever differences in the plane itself there might be, the pilot inside, is only human.

If the speeds are high enough for a certain turning plane to cause a black out, then however that plane might be capable of turning a tighter radius with speed, the human cannot endure more. The guy you are chasing, is in a plane capable of faster speed with better maneuverability - in the double edge of such characteristic, it translates to "easy to cause black out, limiting true capabilities".

What you have experienced is not something wrong. It is just something that you do not fully understand.




-----------
Due to pressure from the moderators, the sig returns to..

"It's the machine, not the man." - Materialist, and proud of it!

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 08:36 AM
Crazy Ivan -

Any chance you made a track of your 109 defeating 3 La's? Not that I don't believe you, I do - I just am trying to learn how to fly this thing and I would love to get a chance to see how you pulled it off.

If you didn't make one - could you? I'd really appreciate it.

Thank you.


<center> http://www.autumnhullphoto.com/fbsig.jpg

.

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 08:38 AM
hehe..i flew la7 against 12 ace "über" 190a-8s. Got 8 of them before ran out of ammo.

Try it...keep vertical and its going to be a duck shoot. If for some reason you have 190a-8s at your 6 do hard climbing turn with max G until they stall. Continue around and shoot them slow bastiges down.

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 08:43 AM
Late war 109s are supposed to be superior combat aircraft cos arcade FB simmers only sim experienced combat ace pilots.

Full /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif Real



___________
Good dogfighters live for the Dogfight. Great Aces live to fight another day. (c) lexx

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 09:11 AM
I have not yet downloaded the patch I will do it ASAP.
But tell me what is wrong with the 109?

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 09:46 AM
Rudders aren't working for about two planes - G-2 and K-4.

Besides that, I don't see anything particularly wrong.



-----------
Due to pressure from the moderators, the sig returns to..

"It's the machine, not the man." - Materialist, and proud of it!

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 10:40 AM
Who cares about those crappy 109's . The true star is the FW190 /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

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XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 03:20 PM
109g series are dead .they get worser climbrate than in 1.1b.how could someone say they are better now or can not see anything wrong?

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 03:40 PM
yeah i agree, after 1.1 final i gave up on 109s, im forced to fly 190s now /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 03:59 PM
Out of curiosity,

Anyone who posted in this thread actually test and record something with a reasonable method, and compare it to real life performance at all?

Where are all these claims coming from anyway?

I've seen some controversial matters revolving around the Bf109, but I guarantee not a single one of them discussed among the more serious folk, has to do with the junk posted in here.

God, I can't believe how much I'm beginning to sound like the Whiner-Police, and the worst part is the whinings just keeps on stock piling no matter how people explain things on and on.

Sweat Jesious almighty.




-----------
Due to pressure from the moderators, the sig returns to..

"It's the machine, not the man." - Materialist, and proud of it!

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 04:22 PM
Good point Kweassa, but how do you measure - for example - how much easy is a plane to burn? Which is the scale to test it?
Beside absolute test results, there's a dynamic and relative aspect of comparisons between planes which must be taken in account.
Now just open a game and tell me empirically if the typical, well known advantages of the late 109s against the Russian planes, namely climbrate, acceleration and partly speed are still there.
That told I surely won't make a drama nor I'll start to whine. I'll just take a Dora and most likely will continue to have fun. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

<FONT COLOR="yellow">BBB_ABRAXA</FONT>

<center>http://ourworld.cs.com/Abra772/mc205_3.jpeg </center>

<marquee> <FONT COLOR="red"> Si vis pacem, para bellum</FONT></marquee>

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 04:34 PM
ANGELOFMONS1 wrote:
-
-
-
-
- Waaaaaaaaah....What ever will I do??? I can't go
- around flying something older than 1944!!! Did the
- war even take place before then? Its not neary fast
- or nimble or modern or interesting enough...WHERE
- ARE MY LAZERS DAMMIT!?!?!
-

fine if the other guys are ALSO flying early war planes http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www3.telus.net/ice51/taipans/tpn_bard.jpg (http://taipans.dyndns.org)

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 08:50 PM
kawessa .... i realise that the blackout limit is something that is set

i am not asking about something i dont understand

i am saying that at high speed i stayed with a LA in the G14 in a turn

dont think for a second that i think the blackout limit set in FB is the limit of the plane but that limit is still there so in essence it IS THE LIMIT

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 09:05 PM
Alas, you do not.

Considering the speeds are so high, when two planes are both in equal amount of blackout it indicates they are roughly pulling the same amount of Gs.

Actually, in most cases the chaser is pulling more Gs than the chased, because the margin before entering a total black-out must be left higher for the one being chased, in order to observe the location of the enemy behind him - whereas the chasing plane can pull harder into a deeper black out, as he has far better visibility and just has to concentrate on one point where the enemy plane is visble, despite how much the periphery of vision becomes darkened.

At any rate, since the La-7 will not be able to pull higher Gs, he will be limited under his maximum turn performance. A plane behind him, in a high speed turning chase, just has to keep roughly the same amount of Gs and he will keep up.

Also, a better turning plane wields higher rate of efficiency in E management - ie. when doing the same maneuver, a better turning plane will lose less E than the worse turning plane.

You said that both you and the La-7 were in high speeds, and was in a turn. In the first phases of the turn where the throttle remains unchanged, take a wild guess which plane will eventually lose more E, and thus will be able to manage a tighter turn radius.

What you have described is nothing different from two La-7s entering a turn at same high speeds, pulling same Gs, but one foolishly retains his throttle rate, while the other slightly lowers his throttle to manage a bit more tighter radius.

If it was a low/mid speed turn where the differences in performances would be markedly shown, that your G-14 was able to keep up with the La-7, that would have been indeed strange.

In a high speed turn, it's not strange at all. A better maneuvering plane actually has a disadvantage in high speed maneuvering because his plane does not allow him to dump E faster than a worse maneuvering plane. Given the speeds are high enough, even a P-47 can keep up with a La-7, probably up to about one circle, before the speed drops to mid ranges and the difference in turn performance is markedly shown.



-----------
Due to pressure from the moderators, the sig returns to..

"It's the machine, not the man." - Materialist, and proud of it!

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 10:38 PM
Right on EyesBlack, you have said it and i can simply give you a bump, 109 is dead if they dont change their plans anymore...


EyesBlack wrote:
- I don't look at handling as an issue, not as much as
- speed, the top end and the acceleration and the
- climb.
-
- I haven't started tests on the climb and the
- acceleration, but I can already tell you the La7
- will win due to the fact it is uber. I mean its
- faster than a dora, you also get the added bonus of
- good handling to, and the guns well... I prefer my
- 30mm's but the planes that have them arn't up to par
- to fight that La7 1 on 1, same advantages...
-
-

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 10:48 PM
hey crazyivan, what you can do in QMB doesnt tell anything, everyone with some experience can win big duels inQMB, not so online against a good pilot and in 1.1 topspeed and climbrate of most important 109s (at least G10,G14, G6AS) has become cut down considerably but not at all for LA7, now if you are in the six of a LA7 you need to have an enormous E-advantage to stay with it, if you are same on E you will see how it simply withdraws easily, it has become absolutely œber in relation to the 109. I wason a 1.1 server tonite and everybody was flying LA, in a 109 or even 190 you are just to slow and not climbing well enough to compete. Even a LaGG3 is almost as fast as a G14 with MW50 and turns better and keeps E much better. Its all not true, a nightmare of Oleg bringing in the famous "bias" again. Hope it doestn stay like that.

II/JG54_Zent

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 10:49 PM
EyesBlack wrote:
- Don't know where you guys get this K4 can outturn
- La7's n stuff I must not be playing the same game
- sheesh.
-
- and as for the late 109's having advantages over
- others... tell me what advantage it has that makes
- the 109 better than any other plane....


Climb. Handling. Dive. Zoom climb. MK 108. Speed characterisitcs. Engage and disengage (almost) at will.



- The thing that makes this plane good is its 30mm
- gun,... so strict bnz, if you ever met a plane on
- the same alt and energy level than u what do you
- do..... tell me...

Climb. You easily get 1000 meter alt advantage if you start climbing madly after you spot him, level.

Then it`s only a matter of patience and E fighting...

http://vo101isegrim.piranho.com/FB-desktopweb.jpg
'Only a dead Indianer is a good Indianer!'

Vezérünk a Bátorság, K*sérµnk a Szerencse!
(Courage leads, Luck escorts us! - Historical motto of the 101st Puma Fighter Regiment)

Flight tests and other aviation performance data: http://www.pbase.com/isegrim

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 10:57 PM
i am flying the 109 in sims for some years now and i tell you Shifty, you are a wise a.s ! If a flight modell like the 109 gets changed every other patch (even in Il2 original it was redone at least 4 times) it starts to become absurd to say: This is realistic! Noone really knows what realistic would be, not even Maddox, or maybe especially not them. I would just wish they kept a good game balance and not change it all the time.
Every plane takes brain to use, if your yak pilot has the same skill level he will kill you because the typical advantages of 109 like climb and speed have been reduced to a shadow...Gimme a LA7 and i blast every 109. Sure, 109s are still usable, but they have changed from nice competitive planes in 1.0 to a handicap plane.

II/JG54_Zent

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 11:07 PM
That was true before 1.1, after it, if that is not altered anymore, you have a 109=lame duck not being able to climb or collect E fast enough

II/JG54-Zent

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 11:10 PM
Sry i forgot to mention the post before was to Isegrimm

That was true before 1.1, after it, if that is not altered anymore, you have a 109=lame duck not being able to climb or collect E fast enough

II/JG54-Zent

Vo101_Isegrim wrote:
-
- EyesBlack wrote:
-- Don't know where you guys get this K4 can outturn
-- La7's n stuff I must not be playing the same game
-- sheesh.
--
-- and as for the late 109's having advantages over
-- others... tell me what advantage it has that makes
-- the 109 better than any other plane....
-
-
- Climb. Handling. Dive. Zoom climb. MK 108. Speed
- characterisitcs. Engage and disengage (almost) at
- will.
-
-
-
-- The thing that makes this plane good is its 30mm
-- gun,... so strict bnz, if you ever met a plane on
-- the same alt and energy level than u what do you
-- do..... tell me...
-
- Climb. You easily get 1000 meter alt advantage if
- you start climbing madly after you spot him, level.
-
- Then it`s only a matter of patience and E
- fighting...
-
- <img
- src="http://vo101isegrim.piranho.com/FB-desktopweb
- .jpg">
- 'Only a dead Indianer is a good Indianer!'
-
- Vezérünk a Bátorság, K*sérµnk a Szerencse!
- (Courage leads, Luck escorts us! - Historical motto
- of the 101st Puma Fighter Regiment)
-
- Flight tests and other aviation performance data:
- http://www.pbase.com/isegrim

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 11:13 PM
I love LW planes, but the La-7 is supposed to climb better at <3000m and should outturn and handle better at high speeds, isn't it?
I agree that the 109 was toned down, but It was kinda ridiculous(early war ones) as I spent almost all the time at 3000rpm, stayed like this for more than 10 minutes, even got to 3300 sometimes, and the engine would run like a dream.
It was good, but IMO not really realistic.
If the La is supposed to be better than the 109, let it be. But plz make them like they were actually, even if it means neutering the 109

http://rumandmonkey.com/widgets/tests/damned/reincarnation.jpg (http://rumandmonkey.com/widgets/tests/damned/)
Are you damned? (http://rumandmonkey.com/widgets/tests/damned/)
<

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 11:28 PM
FiNaZZi wrote:
- I love LW planes, but the La-7 is supposed to climb
- better at <3000m and should outturn and handle
- better at high speeds, isn't it?

No, it isn't. Only at sea level La-7 had the same climb with MW50 109s at sea level up to 2000m then rapidly declining. La-7 and Yak-3 had much heavy elevators at high speed. Compare the elevator surface on La-7, Yak-3 and Bf-109 and see that 109 have very small elevators. Late russian planes are comparable with Emil for stick forces.


- I agree that the 109 was toned down, but It was
- kinda ridiculous(early war ones) as I spent almost
- all the time at 3000rpm, stayed like this for more
- than 10 minutes, even got to 3300 sometimes, and the
- engine would run like a dream.
- It was good, but IMO not really realistic.

It was a wrong representation, why would 109 engine run at 3000rpm when 2800 was max? Did you try to overrev it on manual pitch?


- If the La is supposed to be better than the 109, let
- it be. But plz make them like they were actually,
- even if it means neutering the 109

La-7 was not better than 109, it just turned better at sea level. If you stay above 2000m La-7 should not have any advantage over 109. Of course this is not happening in FB.





<center> http://www.stormbirds.com/images/discussion-main.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 11:32 PM
Zentaurus wrote:
- hey crazyivan, what you can do in QMB doesnt tell
- anything, everyone with some experience can win big
- duels inQMB, not so online against a good pilot and
- in 1.1 topspeed and climbrate of most important 109s
- (at least G10,G14, G6AS) has become cut down
- considerably but not at all for LA7, now if you are
- in the six of a LA7 you need to have an enormous
- E-advantage to stay with it, if you are same on E
- you will see how it simply withdraws easily, it has
- become absolutely œber in relation to the 109. I
- wason a 1.1 server tonite and everybody was flying
- LA, in a 109 or even 190 you are just to slow and
- not climbing well enough to compete. Even a LaGG3 is
- almost as fast as a G14 with MW50 and turns better
- and keeps E much better. Its all not true, a
- nightmare of Oleg bringing in the famous "bias"
- again. Hope it doestn stay like that.
-
- II/JG54_Zent
-
-

Hey Zent. I guess i have to answer this one eh?
yes QMB means nothing...and i`m not pretending to be an ace. But i can assure you...it`s a pilot, not the plane. There is no book or any other material on how to fly 109`s, it`s about feeling it. You might start laughing now /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif but i can`t describe it otherwise. There is alot more in it then "What this plane can and cannot do". Everything counts, settings that you fly on, the way you build your attack they way you exit your attack...many things. I flew 109`s since IL2 Demo thru good times and bad times...and even then damn thing brought me home most of the times.
Here`s the problem...and a major one IMO... People are too freaking smart and everyone can read. One source says A, another says B...and so on. You can read all you want...and while you at it...others will master the plane.
I am wondering when people are going to realize that flying 109`s is a game of patience. If it doesn`t suits you, please move on, there is 190 that is a monster...in all variations.
Making offencive coments towards developer will not do anything good to anyone. I am not going to even discuss that. It`s just sad folks.

Bottom line, i donno what to say to you Zent...come to VFC*HOST, grab LA7 and prove to me that G14 cannot sing...that`s all i can say. But you better see me first /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Regards,
VFC*Crazyivan
http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/ivan-reaper.gif

"No matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down." Ivan Kozhedub

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 11:44 PM
109 in FB is a great killer, fast, fast climb, fast acceleration, powerfull guns but is not a dogfighter.
Real life 109s appear to have been very tricky and were considered to have had flaws that would have made them unacceptable as fighters to Allied forces.
FB 109s were much better for noobs than 190s until the first patch.
That disapointed a lot of people but I think was correct.
Problem is most planes here have FMs that have got a bit out of hand and it's rather difficult to judge what's right and what's not from reading books.
It's more a case of what it can do relative to other a/c in the game, but somewhere in there people mix historical data individually for their a/c of interest and the thing is thrown into chaos.

<center>http://users.compulink.gr/ilusin@e-free.gr/bf109[2)1.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 11:44 PM
crazyivan1970 wrote:
- there is 190 that is a
- monster...in all variations.

Er.... what version of the game do _you_ have? You manage to hack it or something?

There is nothing special about the 190s here. I went to them exclusively the last few months before FB came out, then went back to 109s because the Wolf was defanged. It's better now than in 1.0, but only just. 109s will still rock it's(/thier) world.

XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 12:02 AM
Christos_swc wrote:
- 109 in FB is a great killer, fast, fast climb, fast
- acceleration, powerfull guns but is not a
- dogfighter.

None of those qualities that made 109s great are present after the patch. Bf-109 is a great dogfighter just that you don't know how to use it.


- Real life 109s appear to have been very tricky and
- were considered to have had flaws that would have
- made them unacceptable as fighters to Allied forces.

Would you care to list those flaws? And please don't start with the well known myth heavy controls at high speed because it is pure fantasy.



<center> http://www.stormbirds.com/images/discussion-main.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 12:13 AM
HQ1 wrote:
- i have not install 1.1final yet.i am on working
- now.can anyone tell me what has happened on
- G6,G10,G14
-
-

Nothing has happend you probly wont want to instal 1.1 as it was mistaken released & there will be a real final patch soon 1.11 just keep your 1.1b untill then


the 109s are fine I kick tail with them constantaly

<center> http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_109_1062789885.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 12:48 AM
BlitzPig_DDT wrote:
- crazyivan1970 wrote:
-- there is 190 that is a
-- monster...in all variations.
-
- Er.... what version of the game do _you_ have? You
- manage to hack it or something?
-
- There is nothing special about the 190s here. I went
- to them exclusively the last few months before FB
- came out, then went back to 109s because the Wolf
- was defanged. It's better now than in 1.0, but only
- just. 109s will still rock it's(/thier) world.
-
-

Ummm i have 1.1, not hacked last time i checked lol. Well..try it DDT .. take A9 with twin 108`s.. and see how you do /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Regards,
VFC*Crazyivan
http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/ivan-reaper.gif

"No matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down." Ivan Kozhedub

XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 01:04 AM
Tried all A's with their lightest configs. They stall like mad, don't climb, don't zoom well, and don't outrun anything. It's a coffin. (practically)

The 109s are far superior. Only thing worse than the 190 is the P-47. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 01:07 AM
DDT,you need a hug my brother /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Regards,
VFC*Crazyivan
http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/ivan-reaper.gif

"No matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down." Ivan Kozhedub

XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 01:50 AM
Got a cute sister that could help me out with that? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 02:02 AM
fear not the LA7 ,when im in 109

XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 04:32 AM
Vo101_Isegrim wrote:

- Climb. Handling. Dive. Zoom climb. MK 108. Speed
- characterisitcs. Engage and disengage (almost) at
- will.

As far as climb, it might still be slightly better but i don't see how that helps if the opponent is faster by a hair... it evens out. Easpecially when you try and get away from someone at the same E state as you.

Dive... sure it doesn't break up at 800, but what happens if the guy above you doesn't zoom down after you and hovers above following you, I always thought of diving down as a good way to bleed E from ur plane... and therefore don't do it unless I think I am hooched (which is a lot these days). Zoom climb... like I said I don't see the climb of this plane standing out from all the rest, to me seems the 190 climbs just as well. MK 108, is better yes no doubt about it, and speed characteristics... err nope its not the fastest.

The planes you see online the most.

La7, doras, 190 A-9, P-39, Yak 3 and maybe the 9u

The late 109's top end surpases the yak 3 and the P-39, the rest are faster and in due time will catch.

XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 05:42 AM
now on east front every luftwaffe pilot prefer to fly 190 than 109.that is a big joke ,in contrast it is in real life.

XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 05:45 AM
That is not in contrast to real life.

Pilots had preferences. Some liked the 190, some liked the 109. Most of the ones who preferred the 109 were simply used to it. Some pilots actually over-came slumps when they made the switch to the 190.

XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 08:23 AM
good to read all of your idea

I just test 109F4 109G2, 109G6 in HL


Good thing I found in 1.1
-------------------------
for F4 I can explore LaGG3 in a big fire blow with 20MM. the improvement for fire power I never do like this since IL2 Original http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


for G2 is batter hutting same like IL2 Original but when hutting with P-47, 20mm in G2 not hard enought to nock P-47 ,P-47 much improve climb and speed


for G6 with 30mm. fire power is a killer 2 bullet can cat P-47 in two pices

and one surprise when I was hutting with red friends( P39N10, Yak? , La5? ) I keep climb and climb to 9,000 M. and look back , they can not reach me close to shot http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

and when I was in danger situation and I stay over 4000 merter with LA5 at my 6
emergency escape tactic is my option drive to ground with speed about 750 Km/h and hide at lowleve http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif



Bad ..
- M108 30mm fire rate drop , not easy to apply deflection shotting
- Manually pitch is bad ( need more study about RPM limitation )
- easy deamage to control when was hit by MG.

or I play full real in HL my tactic is hit and run , hiding and surprise kill http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif and avoid dogfight.


conclustion . the successfull of LW pilot in history is the pilot tactic( skill and experience ) not a machine .

S!

sorry to my bad writting again http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif