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View Full Version : Opponent's card order in hand should be random



Quutar
06-15-2013, 11:22 AM
Right now cards are ordered in your hand with the following pattern: first creatures, then spells and finally fortunes and always from lowest to highest based on resource cost. This is perfectly fine on your hand since it makes it faster to read, specially in large hands, but opponent's hand should be random.

At the moment when opponent draws a card you see where system places it and can figure out what kind of card it is. Card went to first spot in hand? Most likely low cost creature. Card went to last spot in hand? Spell or fortune, possibly high cost. In middle? Either high cost creature or spell.
You can also draw conclusions from current hand, if card went to middle it means theres something (creatures) on left side and something (spells/fortunes) on right side - you can of course count how many of said cards he has.

This gets even worse when opponent highlights a card and ponders whetever or not to play it since you can see the card and its position in his hand (well, he doesn't really have to ponder about it, you see it anyway). You don't have to guess anymore, now you pretty much know if he has lower/higher cost creatures on left/right side and same for spells/fortunes. And next card he draws can be identified with higher accuracy now.

Sure, this requires bit extra processing during the game but I believe its still something that gives unneeded advantage to other/both players. Its like when you play with physical cards, against "not so smart" people you can guess what they have cause most people keep cards in order from lowest to highest without thinking about it (applies to normal deck of cards even more). Of course, better players know better to not do that. In this game we are just bound to be noobs.

Simple fix for this is to randomize opponent's hand on your client so you can't gain this "unfair" advantage.

SarethITA
06-15-2013, 12:38 PM
Unfair? Why? that's not a thing that advantage one player more than the other, I think is good this way

Quutar
06-15-2013, 12:49 PM
Thats why "unfair" was in quotes. Of course its same for both players, but still, I don't know, I think its just bit stupid game mechanic and maybe even unintentional? Not really suited in card games in my opinion. It is bit silly that you can gain information about your opponent's hand without using in-game abilities such as cards which reveal your opponent's hand. Specially when we remember that this is mechanic that is only possible in online version of the game, wouldn't work in physical format (if they ever plan to make one).

More opinions?

Khaeldorn
06-15-2013, 01:11 PM
I Agree with You. Every information about opponent hand are precious. And this is free information, You don't need card to know something about opponent's hand. In most of cases when you see a hero, in 2-3 turn You know what kind of deck he play but You shouldn't now what cards IN HAND he have until you play some special card.
This is super annoying when i play with Orcs and i have dodo rider, opponet see when my dodo going to "cheaper" side of my hand.

Quutar
06-15-2013, 01:41 PM
Yeah I even forgot Blackskull Vulture Riders which do actually swing during the game in your hand, that reveals just way too much. Not only opponent knows how many riders you have but also how many other creatures and what are their costs. That is lame.

Cerrs
06-15-2013, 01:43 PM
There are more similar errors in this game. Especially with all discard fortunes, spell twister and similar things. This cards show whole enemy hand, which is poor design. This is computer game, so other player can't cheat you and hide one spell or fortune in sleeve.

Quutar
06-15-2013, 02:19 PM
There are more similar errors in this game. Especially with all discard fortunes, spell twister and similar things. This cards show whole enemy hand, which is poor design. This is computer game, so other player can't cheat you and hide one spell or fortune in sleeve.

Well the cards do say "look at opponent's hand and..." so that is not really an error. Before they changed how those cards work you couldn't even use card if opponent didn't have spell/fortune/whatever in their hand, now that was a bad design. Those are fine how they are now.

Cerrs
06-15-2013, 03:03 PM
Well the cards do say "look at opponent's hand and..." so that is not really an error. Before they changed how those cards work you couldn't even use card if opponent didn't have spell/fortune/whatever in their hand, now that was a bad design. Those are fine how they are now.

No, they are not.
There must be "look at opponent's hand" there, because card allow to take a card from hand not library. Statement "look at opponent's hand and choose a SPELL card from it" should limit you view to spells only. It's a bug or flawed design. Betting second, because DEV probably don't code any selective selection UI.

Quutar
06-15-2013, 03:17 PM
No, they are not.
There must be "look at opponent's hand" there, because card allow to take a card from hand not library. Statement "look at opponent's hand and choose a SPELL card from it" should limit you view to spells only. It's a bug or flawed design. Betting second, because DEV probably don't code any selective selection UI.

Well then the wording would be "look at spell cards at opponent's hand and...". I think its good, makes those cards (even) slightly more useful and its natural since thats how it would work in physical game as well.

Cerrs
06-15-2013, 03:31 PM
Psychical games
In psychical games you must check what your opponent is doing because he can cheat you. This is computer game and it's impossible to do any invalid move.

For me cards which allow to do sth with enemy spell should show spells only, fortune fortunes only, etc.
It's strange when I use card targeting enemy spell and I can check his creatures as well :rolleyes:

Dubkid
06-15-2013, 04:42 PM
We have many TCG games, and why just don't take ideas from them? So, Spell Twister etc. SHOULD give information about hand, and i also agree about card queue in hand. In case of Rider it's just pathetic.

DragoAskani
06-16-2013, 03:24 AM
No, they are not.
There must be "look at opponent's hand" there, because card allow to take a card from hand not library. Statement "look at opponent's hand and choose a SPELL card from it" should limit you view to spells only. It's a bug or flawed design. Betting second, because DEV probably don't code any selective selection UI.
Clearly you are new. It only showed the cards of the class before HoV. They made the decision (and a good one in most players opinions) to make them show you the hand that you took the card from as well. Before this change the cards you are complaining about were also psychic they couldn't be cast unless the opponent had the type of target you wanted to hit in hand. So for instance I couldn't cast spell twister at all unless you had a spell in hand. Free radar and information on your hand.

With the revised versions there is now the risk of not getting a hit from the opponents hand as you can cast it even if they don't have the target type of card in hand. They chose to let you see the hand like you would in a physical card game as the cards are now much higher risk then they were prior to HoV.

If you don't like it then petition them to give me back risk free spell twisters. I would love to know when you draw spells again like I used to.

Irgy_
06-16-2013, 04:52 AM
I agree with this suggestion. It's at least as stupid as the whole hand-scouting with spell-twister thing that's been mentioned already and that everyone was up in arms about, but in this case there's no payoff for the way it is. Ideally leave the cards sorted in your own hand, but randomly permute the cards in the "opponent's hand" graphic. It can't be that hard to do.

I mean sure, it's symmetric, but it makes playing competitively a whole lot more effort, which is just bad design.

Evrsr
05-15-2014, 12:51 AM
I agree with this suggestion. It's at least as stupid as the whole hand-scouting with spell-twister thing that's been mentioned already and that everyone was up in arms about, but in this case there's no payoff for the way it is. Ideally leave the cards sorted in your own hand, but randomly permute the cards in the "opponent's hand" graphic. It can't be that hard to do.

I mean sure, it's symmetric, but it makes playing competitively a whole lot more effort, which is just bad design.

Has this been addressed yet? I was looking for threads of a similar issue but hadn't noticed this. This is one of those things that must be fixed yesterday.

MamuzShah
05-15-2014, 09:29 AM
1 ) Opponent's card order in hand should be random

==> Sure ! It can be considered like a bug.

2 ) Spell twister

If the card says "Look at opponent's hand choose a spell card from it and...", all the hand must be revealed.
Now, because computers game allows it, nerfing Spell twister into : "Opponent must reveal all his spells card, choose one card and...", only spell has to be reveal.

It depends of what we want. There's no bug or flawed design with Spell twister as it is now. It can be nerfed, sure. But it's another discution.

banduan
05-15-2014, 01:02 PM
I kinda agree with the OP, if only that it makes too deep in the wrong way- I'd rather keep the strategy component as pure as possible.

Evrsr
05-18-2014, 02:41 PM
1 ) Opponent's card order in hand should be random
==> Sure ! It can be considered like a bug.


This is not just a bug, this is a very serious bug. The game is leaking game state information.

Showing highlighted cards is something else that makes no sense but has been there since I started playing. I would also rate it as one of the top bugs in the game.