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View Full Version : SEVERAL reasons why crouching should be in AC4



Wolfmeister1010
05-24-2013, 01:54 AM
Here are some reasons why crouching needs to be in AC4.

1. It is a STEALTH game and this needs the ability to crouch

2. The social stealth system is not good enough for the game to rely on solely that

3. There are no crowds in the jungle, on ships, in forts, and on islands. There needs to be more ENVIRONMENTAL stealth to use when in these areas.

4. You don't stand up and walk casually through an occupied hostile camp/fort.

5. Crouching is a COMMON ability in tons of games, regardless of whether they are stealth games or *not.

6. You are an ASSASSIN. I mean....come on..... It is self explanatory.

7. It would not "hurt" the game, but simply add on to the stealth and realism of the game.

8. Crouching should not only work in automatic-linearly placed-useless stalking zone bushes.

9. You also shouldn't have to drink drugged up tea to gain special invisibility power to crouch either.

10. It is COMMON SENSE.

11. No matter what ubisoft says, NO, AC is not all about "social"stealth. As soon as you decided to make an AC in the forest, and in the jungles and at sea, you forfeited that idea.

12. In Watch Dogs, another ubisoft third person stealth game, you can crouch. And that game takes place in modern ****ing day Chicago. That place is nearly 10 times as crowded as 18th century Havana. So I am pretty sure that if you can crouch in that game, you should be able to crouch in this game. So NO, crouching in cities does not ruin the feel of city stealth. Sure, you wouldn't crouch in a crowd, because that would cause suspicion, but there are literally dozens of other places in the city where crouching should be used, like on the rooftops, in forts, in alleyways, in buildings, in restricted areas, and more.

13. By crouching, you would be able to perform many new assasination moves, like takedown drags, over-cover assassinations, rolling, and more.


And YES rolling would also work in the game. It may not be 100% "necessary" but it would not HURT the game either.*

If someone could give me an actual legitimate reason why crouching would HURT the game, then please inform me of your opinion.*

Just because it may not be completely necessary to the core of the game doesn't mean it shouldn't be put in.

Assassin_M
05-24-2013, 02:00 AM
I could care less, but I wont....i COULD, but I wont...

Rugterwyper32
05-24-2013, 02:02 AM
I would like to see a crouch system added, but ONLY IF it works in such a way that it's treated as socially unacceptable. Breaking blends, or if you're found at a restricted area being attacked or seen as a threat at once. If you're walking like anyone else, then it could be easy to think that it's a commoner who has no idea what he's doing and you could be taken out of the place, but seen sneaking around would cause aggression. I think that would be a good way to balance it out with social stealth, making it socially unacceptable and making you actually think when to use it.

Wolfmeister1010
05-24-2013, 02:06 AM
I could care less, but I wont....i COULD, but I wont...

Smart *** :$

Wolfmeister1010
05-24-2013, 02:07 AM
I would like to see a crouch system added, but ONLY IF it works in such a way that it's treated as socially unacceptable. Breaking blends, or if you're found at a restricted area being attacked or seen as a threat at once. If you're walking like anyone else, then it could be easy to think that it's a commoner who has no idea what he's doing and you could be taken out of the place, but seen sneaking around would cause aggression. I think that would be a good way to balance it out with social stealth, making it socially unacceptable and making you actually think when to use it.

I totally agree

Assassin_M
05-24-2013, 02:11 AM
Smart *** :$
:P

Sigv4rd
05-24-2013, 03:42 AM
Idea: use coin throw to make civilians crouch down to gather the coins, then crouch down and they become a stalking zone, once the people stand up you blend in.
Anyway back on topic I would love it if AC had a crouch button a long as it works appropriately with the current gameplay mechanics. I'm not sure how well rolling would work just from an aesthetic perspective, I think sliding could work... I like some of the ideas Sushiglutton came up with in many of his posts for this.

montagemik
05-24-2013, 02:31 PM
1 Reason Crouching should be in AC-4 ...........................

It's Ridiculous to replay the life of a Pirate / Assassin & be expected to believe the only times in this guy's life he ever crouched is to hide in a Bush or Duck a Cannonball . Seriously ??

theeric666
05-24-2013, 02:54 PM
Yeah i do feel like everyone calls Assassin's Creed a stealth game, and in a sense it is cause there are always a few stealth missions but very few stealth mechanics...... makes no sense to be using a social stealth mechanic in forts or ships -_- so yes!!! i would love a crouching button. The game would also benefit from a new system for detection but i think i heard somewhere that they are doing that in AC4BF, i mean has anyone seriously killed all the enemies in a fort without getting detected? it's so damn hard in AC3 i have seen some dude post stealth walkthroughs for forts but they are all super planned, you couldn't just go do that on your first try.

montagemik
05-24-2013, 03:25 PM
The game would also benefit from a new system for detection but i think i heard somewhere that they are doing that in AC4BF, i mean has anyone seriously killed all the enemies in a fort without getting detected? it's so damn hard in AC3 i have seen some dude post stealth walkthroughs for forts but they are all super planned, you couldn't just go do that on your first try.


Yes , several times as 'Teenage Connor' , Just requires patience before making a move or kill & disposing of bodies. I left the cleared out forts without raising the flag a few times so the enemies would respawn. Gave a little replay value.
A Stealth game can still be found in AC , it's just far less prominent in AC3 than it used to be.

theeric666
05-24-2013, 04:15 PM
Yes , several times as 'Teenage Connor' , Just requires patience before making a move or kill & disposing of bodies. I left the cleared out forts without raising the flag a few times so the enemies would respawn. Gave a little replay value.
A Stealth game can still be found in AC , it's just far less prominent in AC3 than it used to be.

Yeah sure okay it's possible if you're patient, but i mean if you compare it to something like Far cry 3 where you could infiltrate, plan and kill every one on your first try without necessarily studying patrol routes and all that or the Batman: Arkham games where you can do pretty much the same thing... I think one of the reasons it's much harder then in those games is that: if one soldier so much has sees you and realizes that you are an Assassin then the whole fort goes on alert, i think you should be able to kill him before he yells out Help!! or whatever so that the fort doesn't go on alert. I think that you should be able to contain the situation if only a few guard have seen you and haven't yet communicated to the others that you're there

AvK KiNgKoBrA
05-24-2013, 04:16 PM
U would think that they wouldve been added this

Bastiaen
05-24-2013, 05:57 PM
Sadly, I don't care.

STDlyMcStudpants
05-24-2013, 06:07 PM
id use it if it were there..but i really dont care if it happens or not....
Maybe they wil do some stealth mode feature where you automatically crouch when needed like connor did in tall grass...

BATISTABUS
05-24-2013, 08:51 PM
I agree with some of your points, but most of your reasoning isn't very good. I agree that social stealth isn't enough on its own in its current form, but I'll just say that there has never been a point in AC where I wished I could crouch, besides in stalking zones (which I like btw). I do think there'd be some cool Assassination potential in cover spots, which already works well with AC3's corner-peaking system.

AherasSTRG
05-25-2013, 12:22 AM
...I mean has anyone seriously killed all the enemies in a fort without getting detected? it's so damn hard in AC3 i have seen some dude post stealth walkthroughs for forts but they are all super planned, you couldn't just go do that on your first try.
AC3 forts were easy as pie. Have you ever played Dishonored or Thief? Now, those were some tough stealth games. AC3 was so easy, only thing you needed to do was build the poisson dart capacity upgrade and deal with the guards cautiously. Nothing like Dishonored in which if you misclicked a whole platoon was after you...

If someone could give me an actual legitimate reason why crouching would HURT the game, then please inform me of your opinion.*
Some of your arguments sound ok to me, but I believe the overall image is fairly weak. I believe the crouching ability would be ridiculous in an AC game. Where social stealth (clever and interesting mechanic) is not enough, the character has plenty of ways to use the environment (bushes, trees, corners, high spots, haystacks, supply tents) in order to stealthily approach the emenies. I cannot even think of a single scenario in which the above mechanics are not enough. Why spend money and time to develop and implement a feature that:
1. is not necessary in any of the scenarios the main character finds himself on
2. is not cool at all [an assassin the likes of Ezio and Connor crouching? ***** please (personal opinion)]
3. totally goes against the philosophy of the game, which is social stealth since Destilets' days
4. in other games, it is used only to differentiate the attitude of the character (openly aggressive or stealthy), so that the game can adapt its mechanics (extra damage, specializations etc):
-Dishonored: in order not to make noise and avoid combat (eg your enemies' bodies disappear when killed)
-Elder Scrolls: in order to gain perks and/or avoid combat (eg x30 damage when attacking while hidden)
-Far Cry 3: quickly dispose of the enemies, when they outnumber you (use sniper rifles for extra damage)
That is why other games use crouching: it's just an "enable stealth actions" model for the main characters. However, something like that is not needed in AC game, which has different ways of approaching the "combat => stealth" and the "stealth => combat" situations (run and hide, hit and run, assassinate the big guy, deal with the rest, run towards the target => kill => perform leap of faith). It's a whole different philosophy, pursuing which might compromise the reasons AC was made so popular. Let alone the fact that such requests may lead the developers adopting models that will remind nothing of our favourite franchise...

theeric666
05-25-2013, 12:54 AM
AC3 forts were easy as pie. Have you ever played Dishonored or Thief? Now, those were some tough stealth games. AC3 was so easy, only thing you needed to do was build the poisson dart capacity upgrade and deal with the guards cautiously. Nothing like Dishonored in which if you misclicked a whole platoon was after you...

Some of your arguments sound ok to me, but I believe the overall image is fairly weak. I believe the crouching ability would be ridiculous in an AC game. Where social stealth (clever and interesting mechanic) is not enough, the character has plenty of ways to use the environment (bushes, trees, corners, high spots, haystacks, supply tents) in order to stealthily approach the emenies. I cannot even think of a single scenario in which the above mechanics are not enough. Why spend money and time to develop and implement a feature that:
1. is not necessary in any of the scenarios the main character finds himself on
2. is not cool at all [an assassin the likes of Ezio and Connor crouching? ***** please (personal opinion)]
3. totally goes against the philosophy of the game, which is social stealth since Destilets' days
I played Thief... I played Dishonored... i even finished it without getting detected and without killing anyone at the same time, the AI in those games is way more stealth oriented. In AC they notice you straight away but the trick is for them not to recognize you.....however when you are in a fort/den/ship or whatever then that kind of detection system doesn't really make sense.
Also what do you mean "ridiculous" why would it be ridiculous to crouch? Splinter cell has crouching...Arkham city has crouching, it makes no sense to just walk normally in a hostile area.
The thing is they make a bunch of missions where you have to use stealth but they don't really give you the ideal stealth mechanics, sure there is corner cover, stalking zones and the tree running but those are all things that depend on the mission/level design, why shouldn't i be able to duck behind cover if there is a barrel over there and the enemy is about to turn around?
Honestly i think the game focuses way to much on social stealth while giving us missions that require traditional stealth, i mean if you play a traditional stealth game like Splinter cell,Arkham predator sections, Thief or Dishonored you spend almost all of your time crouching if you think about it.
Does anyone really like social stealth anyway? i mean the idea sound great but would anyone pick social stealth over traditional stealth?

Assassin_M
05-25-2013, 01:06 AM
Does anyone really like social stealth anyway? i mean the idea sound great but would anyone pick social stealth over traditional stealth?
If you did not pick social stealth, then AC shouldn't have been the game for you..the ONLY stealth present in AC I, AC II, ACB and ACR was social...traditional stealth was minimum

theeric666
05-25-2013, 01:13 AM
If you did not pick social stealth, then AC shouldn't have been the game for you..the ONLY stealth present in AC I, AC II, ACB and ACR was social...traditional stealth was minimum

AC is for me because i like history and i like adventure....i don't think social stealth is a bad thing i just think people are holding on to it a little to much rather then going the traditional stealth route. I would like to have both to be honest, although i doubt they'd put crouching in AC4BF at this point in development if they haven't already.

AdamPearce
05-25-2013, 03:56 AM
I think the problem is in the controls, I've noticed all the buttons were already used, and for a Crouch system, you defintly need a single Button, otherwise it's problematic.

Don't belive me?

(Console controls)

R1/RT: Run-Climb
R2/RB: Wheel of weapons
L1/LT: Scope-Lock
L2/LB: Assassins Recruits

X/A: Quick walk-Push crowd
O/B: Steal-Pick up weapons-Interact
Square/X: Attack-Assassinate
Triangle/Y: Shoot
R3/RS: Move Camera-Center the camera
L3/LS: Move-Eagle Vision

Arrows: Qucik Weapons

Start: Open menu
Select/Back: Open the map

See? There is no buttons le...oh wait, actually is we throw up the Center Camera useless option, that could be the crouch button. Since it's already used in Battlefield 3, why not in AC? This or the Eagle Vision?

theeric666
05-25-2013, 04:27 AM
I think the problem is in the controls, I've noticed all the buttons were already used, and for a Crouch system, you defintly need a single Button, otherwise it's problematic.

Don't belive me?

(Console controls)

R1/RT: Run-Climb
R2/RB: Wheel of weapons
L1/LT: Scope-Lock
L2/LB: Assassins Recruits

X/A: Quick walk-Push crowd
O/B: Steal-Pick up weapons-Interact
Square/X: Attack-Assassinate
Triangle/Y: Shoot
R3/RS: Move Camera-Center the camera
L3/LS: Move-Eagle Vision

Arrows: Qucik Weapons

Start: Open menu
Select/Back: Open the map

See? There is no buttons le...oh wait, actually is we throw up the Center Camera useless option, that could be the crouch button. Since it's already used in Battlefield 3, why not in AC? This or the Eagle Vision?

Well...if the game doesn't have recruits then it could use the button for that.

projectpat06
05-25-2013, 04:36 AM
I think the problem is in the controls, I've noticed all the buttons were already used, and for a Crouch system, you defintly need a single Button, otherwise it's problematic.


See? There is no buttons le...oh wait, actually is we throw up the Center Camera useless option, that could be the crouch button. Since it's already used in Battlefield 3, why not in AC? This or the Eagle Vision?

I would gladly give up the eagle vision button for a crouch button or something else. It has become almost near pointless.

AdamPearce
05-25-2013, 04:36 AM
Well...if the game doesn't have recruits then it could use the button for that.

Yeah...but no.

Rugterwyper32
05-25-2013, 04:41 AM
I would gladly give up the eagle vision button for a crouch button or something else. It has become almost near pointless.

I'd say no. If anything, go back to AC:R style eagle sense, that was useful and fun, IMO. Add some more stealth-based missions and it works out.
I'd say out with camera centering. Not really useful and it's just... there. I don't think anyone uses it at all, unlike eagle vision. Or if calling assassins isn't there, then there's that.

AdamPearce
05-25-2013, 04:41 AM
I would gladly give up the eagle vision button for a crouch button or something else. It has become almost near pointless.

Don't know if it would fit with the actual script. Since Haytham has it, Edward should have it to because he is the Assassin in the game and I don't think his wife is the one with the TWCB genes, but still, that could explain the ''no eagle hood'' thing. Actually that would make a lot of sense, because the Six Sense is to be able to see the Truth, and the best eyes are the ones of the Eagle, so to represent it they add eagle hoods to those who had the genes.

So yes, we can take off the Eagle Vision since, like you said, it became useless.

ProletariatPleb
05-25-2013, 04:42 AM
Eagle vision has been useless for a long time now.

AdamPearce
05-25-2013, 04:45 AM
I'd say no. If anything, go back to AC:R style eagle sense, that was useful and fun, IMO. Add some more stealth-based missions and it works out.
I'd say out with camera centering. Not really useful and it's just... there. I don't think anyone uses it at all, unlike eagle vision. Or if calling assassins isn't there, then there's that.

I also think the camera centring is the one who should go. And actually this button is really useless because the camera take it place back when you start running anyway, and maybe change the Eagle Vision for a Analysis Look or smething like that, because it became a cheat in AC3 ''Oh, I need to serch for clues, Eagle Vision that I have no idea where it came from and that I will never talk about Activate! There a clue there, there and there!'' ...-_-'

Rugterwyper32
05-25-2013, 05:24 AM
I also think the camera centring is the one who should go. And actually this button is really useless because the camera take it place back when you start running anyway, and maybe change the Eagle Vision for a Analysis Look or smething like that, because it became a cheat in AC3 ''Oh, I need to serch for clues, Eagle Vision that I have no idea where it came from and that I will never talk about Activate! There a clue there, there and there!'' ...-_-'

Eagle Vision in AC3 became the clue hunter at most. Not much of a reason to use it. Admittedly, though, there wasn't that much reason to use it in AC2 and ACB as far as I remember besides getting glyphs and the times you were required to use it. AC1 and ACR are the only games in the series where I've actively used Eagle Vision/Sense. ACR moreso, simply because I find it fun to put tripwire bombs on guard routes. The concept they had for ACR was pretty great, though, and I'd love to see it return just that with more of a stealth purpose added to it.

shobhit7777777
05-25-2013, 10:13 AM
AC3 forts were easy as pie. Have you ever played Dishonored or Thief? Now, those were some tough stealth games. AC3 was so easy, only thing you needed to do was build the poisson dart capacity upgrade and deal with the guards cautiously. Nothing like Dishonored in which if you misclicked a whole platoon was after you...


While I couldn't help but laugh when you talked about Dishonored being a tough 'stealth' game...the point is not about AC's difficulty curve....its about providing options to the player to re-enforce and validate his/her chosen playstyle (stealth) allowing him/her to craft a meta-narrative. Crouching is a simple feature that only provides the visual aesthetic of being sneaky but also fulfils the traditional role of a mode where the AI is less visually pereceptive, the player is able to hide behind low level geometry and reduce noise levels while moving. "Stealh Mode" as you put it so aptly. And I'll address why such a mode is so important later in my post


I believe the crouching ability would be ridiculous in an AC game. Where social stealth (clever and interesting mechanic) is not enough, the character has plenty of ways to use the environment (bushes, trees, corners, high spots, haystacks, supply tents) in order to stealthily approach the emenies.

What is ridiculous is that in a stealth game like AC which offers quite a bit of freedom and sandbox areas, the user is restricted to designer created "hiding spots" which themselves fail at the task thanks to a kooky auto-crouch. It is reduced to a tedious puzzle of hide and seek with a lot of frustration born not out of challenging scenarios but out of effed AI detection and rigid mission design.

You also fail to grasp the simple concept of Connor being presented as a 'Wolf' a predator. Aggressive stealth...active and dynamic sneaking symbolizes such predatory gameplay - Farcry, Crysis, Splinter Cell Conviction, Arkham Asylum/City....you'll notice that the games are about constant movement, planning and aggression.....static hiding spots and waiting for lumbering guards on patrol saps that very idea.

Not only does the auto-crouch (However welcome it was...I loved it..Ubi added a great way to actually hide naturally) go against the overall concept of 'Connor' the Wolf.....it actually can rob the player of freedom


1. is not necessary in any of the scenarios the main character finds himself on
2. is not cool at all [an assassin the likes of Ezio and Connor crouching? ***** please (personal opinion)]
3. totally goes against the philosophy of the game, which is social stealth since Destilets' days
4. in other games, it is used only to differentiate the attitude of the character (openly aggressive or stealthy), so that the game can adapt its mechanics (extra damage, specializations etc):

1. Social Stealth goes out the window when you have forts/dens/Borgia towers. The devs shot themselves in the foot when they decided to beef up stealth by stuffing in scenarios more suited to traditional sneaking than social stealth - the series's forte. Now that they've gone and committed...its only natural for them to expand on traditional sneaking...like they did with AC3's corner cover

2. Personal opinion - fair enough. IMO Assassin's not being able to crouch behind a chest high wall and getting detected in an awkward attempt to hide is more uncool

3. Social Stealth..indeed...but the series has been augmented with classic stealth mechanics....can't leave it halfway. Besides a social stealth scenario for every mission is not plausible.

4.
That is why other games use crouching: it's just an "enable stealth actions" model for the main characters. However, something like that is not needed in AC game, which has different ways of approaching the "combat => stealth" and the "stealth => combat" situations (run and hide, hit and run, assassinate the big guy, deal with the rest, run towards the target => kill => perform leap of faith). It's a whole different philosophy, pursuing which might compromise the reasons AC was made so popular. Let alone the fact that such requests may lead the developers adopting models that will remind nothing of our favourite franchise...

You're confusing the core gameplay loop and the core philosophy

The core philosophy was centered around of freedom of playstyle and being an Assassin...an Assassin Sim this game was. The goal wasn't to focus on one sneaking oriented system. The fact that you can traverse rooftops is proof of this- classic avoidance based stealth.

Crouching isn't a philosophy..it is a much needed mechanic which fits within the parameters of the existing gameplay. In your gameplay loop (which is hardly representative of the final gameplay) you leave out the depth and breadth of "Stealth".......sneaking on the rooftops, using the crowd to gain access, infiltrating an area where crowd blending is daft......these dynamic situations need mechanics which allow a lot of freedom in terms of hiding and movement

If the addition of crouching takes away what this franchise is....then by god...I hope it does..because I do not like where this game is headed....and if you feel that a mechanic like crouching breaches your interpretation of the game...I can only shake my head and disagree.

AherasSTRG
05-25-2013, 01:50 PM
While I couldn't help but laugh when you talked about Dishonored being a tough 'stealth' game...the point is not about AC's difficulty curve....
Yeah, it is not about that. The part of the post you quoted there was to answer to a guy who was saying that stealthily taking forts in AC3 was very difficult. Also, Dishonored is a tough stealth game, if you play it in the veteran or higher difficulty ofc. But this is not the point. We were discussing about the crouching mechanic...


You also fail to grasp the simple concept of Connor being presented as a 'Wolf' a predator. Aggressive stealth...active and dynamic sneaking symbolizes such predatory gameplay - Farcry, Crysis, Splinter Cell Conviction, Arkham Asylum/City....you'll notice that the games are about constant movement, planning and aggression.....static hiding spots and waiting for lumbering guards on patrol saps that very idea.

Not only does the auto-crouch (However welcome it was...I loved it..Ubi added a great way to actually hide naturally) go against the overall concept of 'Connor' the Wolf.....it actually can rob the player of freedom
Constant movement, planning and aggression are also present in the AC series without the crouching mechanic and they actually work pretty well. Take the Fort Wolcott Mission for example or most of the assassinations of the first game. What you do not like is the idea of waiting for the patrol to return so that you can proceed. But an assassin the likes of which the story writers present us are people with patience, people that "hold their blade before they strike" and watch their prey. All those games you are reffering to: Would you call the guys from Far Cry or Crysis or Sam Fischer or Batman (ok, Batman is a god anyway) an assassin? You do not need crouching for constant movement, planning and aggression, as all AC games have shown us. Static hiding spots are not a problem, but an enchantment on the whole feeling of the game.
"Concept of Connor as a wolf predator". Have you ever seen an actual wolf hunting (movies do not count)? Have you ever seen an actual lion hunting (the Lion King does not count)? Let me give you some links to some youtube videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCG1I-Ssgww
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94zTqeCMl8o
So, after watching the two videos, can you really say that the "concept of a wolf predator" involves crouching? For God's sake, wolves do not hunt like that. Among the whole animal kingdom, only felines crouch to hunt. Well, ok, if one is completely oblivious to the ways of the nature or if they are 16 years old, you can sell them the concept of "crouching" as a wolf characteristic. But the concept is nothing like what you are describing. Connor was a wolf predator, an assassin operating in New York, Boston and the frontier, not an ultra skilled agent (47), neither a supersoldier in a remote island, nor a masked vigilante in a cape. Why would we need a crouching mechanic in the game. And so you are saying:


1. Social Stealth goes out the window when you have forts/dens/Borgia towers. The devs shot themselves in the foot when they decided to beef up stealth by stuffing in scenarios more suited to traditional sneaking than social stealth - the series's forte. Now that they've gone and committed...its only natural for them to expand on traditional sneaking...like they did with AC3's corner cover
Corner cover was a necessary mechanic since we were already using it informally in the previous games. They just added the leaning animation and the corner assassination.

3. Social Stealth..indeed...but the series has been augmented with classic stealth mechanics....can't leave it halfway. Besides a social stealth scenario for every mission is not plausible.
That's why environmental stealth was added, in order to expand on new possibilities while staying true to the core that made that game popular, social stealth. While, the new mechanics (corner leaning, bush crouching) are a natural expansion of the social stealth, since you can combine the two seemlessly, full crouching by will is not going to work in the same way and I am going to tell you in a while why.


You're confusing the core gameplay loop and the core philosophy

The core philosophy was centered around of freedom of playstyle and being an Assassin...an Assassin Sim this game was. The goal wasn't to focus on one sneaking oriented system. The fact that you can traverse rooftops is proof of this- classic avoidance based stealth.

Crouching isn't a philosophy..it is a much needed mechanic which fits within the parameters of the existing gameplay. In your gameplay loop (which is hardly representative of the final gameplay) you leave out the depth and breadth of "Stealth".......sneaking on the rooftops, using the crowd to gain access, infiltrating an area where crowd blending is daft......these dynamic situations need mechanics which allow a lot of freedom in terms of hiding and movement.
The crouching mechanic of course is not a philosophy by itself, however its implementation would require a strong change in the direction of the game. All these dynamic situations do not need a crouching mechanic. In fact something like that would make these situations lose their unique character. Giving the abiltiy to crouch and thus differentiate the attitude of the main character towards his/her environment would radcally change the philosophy the developers need to have from then on in creating the game missions. The point we, AC fans, are trying to make through these forums is that we want the game to return to the roots of the first and second games' stealth mechanics, while inserting new and interesting features, which though do not flatten the identity of the franchise.

pacmanate
05-25-2013, 01:51 PM
Well...if the game doesn't have recruits then it could use the button for that.

Yes, lets take out the Brotherhood so we can crouch *Slow Clap*

Bashilir
05-25-2013, 02:41 PM
Yes, lets take out the Brotherhood so we can crouch *Slow Clap*


Actually, that's an easy fix. Just put the recruits on the weapon wheel. Then, you use it like you use the Horse Whistle.

ProletariatPleb
05-25-2013, 02:44 PM
Yes, lets take out the Brotherhood so we can crouch *Slow Clap*
Not like the "brotherhood" is more than a gimmicky feature.

shobhit7777777
05-25-2013, 04:14 PM
Yeah, it is not about that. The part of the post you quoted there was to answer to a guy who was saying that stealthily taking forts in AC3 was very difficult. Also, Dishonored is a tough stealth game, if you play it in the veteran or higher difficulty ofc. But this is not the point. We were discussing about the crouching mechanic...
.

I would disagree on Dishonored being a tough stealth game..but agree that discussing this strays off topic


. Have you ever seen an actual wolf hunting (movies do not count)? Have you ever seen an actual lion hunting (the Lion King does not count)? Let me give you some links to some youtube videos:

I think you've taken the concept of a 'Wolf' quite literally....as well as its implications towards mechanics in the game

It is Human tendency to attach animalistic names to underscore actions, feelings etc. Or do you really think that military units with animalistic call-signs and nicknames actually behave like their namesakes?

Maxime Beland, when talking about the core gameplay of Splinter Cell Conviction, used the term Panther alot.....this did not imply Sam Fisher climbing trees and eating NPCs. It denoted that the character is imbibed with the mythical and legendary predatory characteristics afforded to the large carnivorous felines...visual imagery of strength, speed, aggression and stealth.

The same way Ezio and Altair don't sprout wings and fly around YET the core gameplay loop and imagery of verticality and air assassinations evoke a sense of being the 'Bird of Prey' hunting its quarry

Now that we've established that the animal metaphors are in fact, just metaphors for gameplay...we can move on.

Thanks for the links though...I did enjoy the videos. I wonder if you've seen a clip of a Leopard stalking its prey from a few feet....spellbinding stuff.


Constant movement, planning and aggression are also present in the AC series without the crouching mechanic and they actually work pretty well. Take the Fort Wolcott Mission for example or most of the assassinations of the first game. What you do not like is the idea of waiting for the patrol to return so that you can proceed. But an assassin the likes of which the story writers present us are people with patience, people that "hold their blade before they strike" and watch their prey. All those games you are reffering to: Would you call the guys from Far Cry or Crysis or Sam Fischer or Batman (ok, Batman is a god anyway) an assassin? You do not need crouching for constant movement, planning and aggression, as all AC games have shown us. Static hiding spots are not a problem, but an enchantment on the whole feeling of the game.
"Concept of Connor as a wolf predator".:

The concept of Connor being a wolf, a predator would entail mechanics that would allow him to embody the ideals attached to that specific beast in the context of human lore (remember what we established before)

The Wolf tag brings with it the feeling of stalking your prey, then striking swiftly and silently...naturally a gameplay loop which is more involved, flexible and empowering feeds into this fantasy...and crouching is one aspect of it which adds to the depth of the experience

Crouching is not only a sensible way to allow player freedom when sneaking but also works from an aesthetic point of view, differentiating Connor from his more urban ancestors in the way he moves and stalks the NPCs....cementing his image as a hunter first and foremost

The Assassin's presented to us...are supposed to be highly lethal, swift and silent embodiments of death

Static hiding zones....are the very opposite of the above

The player should have the flexibility to crouch behind level geometry as and when he sees fit to create his own 'hiding spots'....this allows more options in terms of freedom of movement....where erstwhile I couldn't hide because Connor wouldn't crouch....low walls, barrels, fences etc become valid cover points. This allows more ways to approach and kill off an NPC without breaking out of the stealth loop

An Assassin is supposed to move swiftly and silently.....taking out guards without a sound in the blink of an eye...making his way to the target. This concept is what the whole 'Wolf' theme represents

The Washington DLC's 'Wolf' power is the epitome of the above trope...the silent, lethal predator
Such aggressive stealth gameplay hinges on the ability of the character to have a lot of freedom in movement and explore the map

Static spots is counter to the aforementioned vision


That's why environmental stealth was added, in order to expand on new possibilities while staying true to the core that made that game popular, social stealth. While, the new mechanics (corner leaning, bush crouching) are a natural expansion of the social stealth, since you can combine the two seemlessly, full crouching by will is not going to work in the same way and I am going to tell you in a while why.

I disagree plain and simple. The mechanics are a natural expansion of simple LOS stealth. Social Stealth has nothing to do with it. You can't conveniently club features together to suit your argument.

The additions were an effort to beef up the LOS stealth the series has adopted since the second game in the form infiltration areas....and to give the player stealth options in the wilderness...where social stealth fails.


The crouching mechanic of course is not a philosophy by itself, however its implementation would require a strong change in the direction of the game. All these dynamic situations do not need a crouching mechanic. In fact something like that would make these situations lose their unique character. Giving the abiltiy to crouch and thus differentiate the attitude of the main character towards his/her environment would radcally change the philosophy the developers need to have from then on in creating the game missions. .

Elaborate

Show me a "dynamic situation" where crouching breaks the social stealth paradigm....or severely affects mission design. And I'll show you a flying a pig

I've already addressed issues pertaining to the symbiosis of Social and LOS stealth in a post I'd made a while ago..in a thread which was about crouching in the franchise...If I can find it, I'll repost it.


The point we, AC fans, are trying to make through these forums is that we want the game to return to the roots of the first and second games' stealth mechanics, while inserting new and interesting features, which though do not flatten the identity of the franchise

Speak for yourself.

According to the poll, the majority would like it included

While I would root for a return to form...fact is that traditional stealth mechanics are mandatory to any stealth game regardless of its focus. Crouching doesn't flatten AC's identity...it only underscores it as a stealth game

Instead of a rigid stealth system (AC is very archaic when it comes to that) it needs to desperately beef up on this front - Social and LOS both..no exceptions

pacmanate
05-25-2013, 07:49 PM
Not like the "brotherhood" is more than a gimmicky feature.

At least they fight.

I just want a better weapon wheel, one like AC:R's, but not so obstructive, and one that doesn't stop time.

David2010549
05-26-2013, 02:56 AM
I'd like to point out that a stationary crouch has been in every mainline game so far, and that you can actually use it to hide behind objects nearly as low as waist height. It's definitely awkward to use, so I'm not sure it was even intended, but it's done by preparing to jump by holding the foot/jump and high profile buttons. If you don't want to jump afterwards, you can just let go of the high profile button before letting go of the foot/jump button. Just be careful that you aren't too close to and facing the object you're trying to hide behind, or you might end up trying to climb it instead. Coincidentally, this technique is a part of my current strategy for my next video, and will probably be there in the final run.

pacmanate
05-26-2013, 10:34 AM
I'd like to point out that a stationary crouch has been in every mainline game so far, and that you can actually use it to hide behind objects nearly as low as waist height. It's definitely awkward to use, so I'm not sure it was even intended, but it's done by preparing to jump by holding the foot/jump and high profile buttons. If you don't want to jump afterwards, you can just let go of the high profile button before letting go of the foot/jump button. Just be careful that you aren't too close to and facing the object you're trying to hide behind, or you might end up trying to climb it instead. Coincidentally, this technique is a part of my current strategy for my next video, and will probably be there in the final run.

Name a button that can be used at present for crouch that isn't already doing something important.

ProletariatPleb
05-26-2013, 02:00 PM
Name a button that can be used at present for crouch that isn't already doing something important.
Eagle Vision/Recruit

pacmanate
05-26-2013, 02:10 PM
Eagle Vision/Recruit

Why don't you like recruits? And okay fair play, eagle vision is getting more and more pointless, but they won't ever take it out, its iconic. I just hope they make use for Eagle Vision again.

ProletariatPleb
05-26-2013, 02:14 PM
Why don't you like recruits? And okay fair play, eagle vision is getting more and more pointless, but they won't ever take it out, its iconic. I just hope they make use for Eagle Vision again.
They're useless, they take ages to kill people and are gimmicky. I can't remember the last time I "needed" recruits unless I just wanted mindless fun.

pacmanate
05-26-2013, 02:17 PM
They're useless, they take ages to kill people and are gimmicky. I can't remember the last time I "needed" recruits unless I just wanted mindless fun.

I use them when I am about to die/get a million respawning Jagerbombs :|

Rugterwyper32
05-26-2013, 02:17 PM
Eagle Vision/Recruit

Why do you mention the two things that can actually be used/improved rather than the even more useless (and maybe even completely useless) center cam function? There's one thing that has ABSOLUTELY no use at all.

ProletariatPleb
05-26-2013, 02:21 PM
I use them when I am about to die/get a million respawning Jagerbombs :|
@_@ you must suck at combat then, lol.


Why do you mention the two things that can actually be used/improved rather than the even more useless (and maybe even completely useless) center cam function? There's one thing that has ABSOLUTELY no use at all.
I don't even know of any camera centering function, lol.

Rugterwyper32
05-26-2013, 02:25 PM
@_@ you must suck at combat then, lol.


I don't even know of any camera centering function, lol.

Clicking the right analog stick centers the camera. It's there and it's... honestly, there's no reason for it to even be there even though it's been in every game, cam centers itself while you move anyway and we're not dealing with Sonic Adventure style of camera controls or level to need that. It could easily be taken out and there, space for crouch.

pacmanate
05-26-2013, 02:26 PM
I don't suck at combat at all, just sometimes I don't want to fight and press the same 2 buttons over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over

ProletariatPleb
05-26-2013, 02:28 PM
Clicking the right analog stick centers the camera. It's there and it's... honestly, there's no reason for it to even be there even though it's been in every game, cam centers itself while you move anyway and we're not dealing with Sonic Adventure style of camera controls or level to need that. It could easily be taken out and there, space for crouch.
Ah, keyboard and mouse player here never seen that key nor is there any need but if it's there and has no use could very well be removed, I have a lot of space for more controls anyway if only we could let them figure it out.


I don't suck at combat at all, just sometimes I don't want to fight and press the same 2 buttons over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
.........then leg it? :p

Rugterwyper32
05-26-2013, 02:32 PM
Ah, keyboard and mouse player here never seen that key nor is there any need but if it's there and has no use could very well be removed, I have a lot of space for more controls anyway if only we could let them figure it out.

That would make sense. I'm an Xbox360 player, so yeah, there's that function there. The one function mapped in the controller that I don't see absolutely any use for and that can't be used properly or improved simply because, well, how can you do that to centering the camera which it does on its own when you get moving anyway? It just takes an extra space